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Wow! Just Wow!

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This has never happened to me until today.  I made a prediction about Darwinist debating tactics and the prediction was fulfilled in the very post in which I made it!!! 

In this post I describe the common Darwinist “literature bluff” tactic: 

Note carefully the common Darwinist tactic here:

Literature bluff: There are thousands of books and articles demonstrating Darwinist proposition X.

Calling the bluff: OK, show me exactly where in just one of those books or articles this proposition is established.

Inevitable Darwinist response: [crickets]

Then in the comments section Alan Fox posts this link “beneficial mutations drosophila” in comment 8, and in comment 9 he says:  “One or two article in there must be worth a glance, or am I bluffing?! 

This is the classic literature bluff.  Alan is saying, essentially, “Hey look.  I googled “beneficial mutations drosophila” and got 349,000 hits!  QED, the literature proves that scientists have induced beneficial mutations in drosophila, and that in turn proves beyond doubt the Darwinist position on macroevolution.”   

Astounding.  So let’s see how this unfolds [I feel like Flounder in Animal House:  “Oh boy, this is GREAT!”]

Step 1:  Alan makes his literature bluff as described above.

Step 2:  Sterusjon calls Alans bluff when he writes: 

BEGIN STERUSJON QUOTE: 

Just for kicks, I followed your link in post #8. I found 349,000 Google hits. All well and good. I found numerous hits that were irrelevant to the issue. I found that many of the top links lead to the same paper. On that account the 349,000 number is quite deceptive. In addition that often listed paper defined its “beneficial” mutation as a change that allowed subsequent generations to survive in an artificial environment of >4% NaCl in their food supply that their distant ancestors could not. Oh, the wonders of micro-evolution to bring about macro-differences is thus demonstrated.

I wonder if the salt tolerance would persist if the flies where returned to “normal” feeding conditions? Just as Scambray noted about other “beneficial” mutations.

But more than that, I found these two links:

http://news.sciencemag.org/sci…..23-05.html where I found:

The researchers turned to the fruit fly Drosophila melanogaster to test this hypothesis. By crafting synthetic chromosomes, they created flies that reproduce asexually. They then established 17 populations of these asexual flies, all with white eyes. For comparison, they also set up 17 populations of white-eyed sexual flies. The team then let the insects breed for 10 generations. They added red-eyed flies and artificially favored the red-eyed gene by adding more red-eyed flies each generation. Thus the red-eyed gene mimicked a beneficial mutation. (Emphasis added by me)

“[A]rtificially…mimicked a beneficial mutation” What’s this. No real beneficial mutations?

And http://harunyahya.com/en/Evrim…..Drosophila where this was to be found:

All evolutionist efforts to establish beneficial mutations have ended in failure. In order to reverse this pattern, evolutionists have for decades been carrying out experiments on fruit flies, which reproduce very quickly and which can easily be subjected to mutations. Scientists have encouraged these insects to undergo all kinds of mutations, a great many times. However, not one single useful mutation has ever been observed.

The evolutionist geneticist Gordon R. Taylor describes these evolutionists’ pointless persistence:

It is a striking, but not much mentioned fact that, though geneticists have been breeding fruit flies for sixty years or more in labs all round the world—flies which produce a new generation every eleven days—they have never yet seen the emergence of a new species or even a new enzyme.

Another researcher, Michael Pitman, expresses the failure of the experiments on fruit flies:

. . . geneticists have subjected generations of fruit flies to extreme conditions of heat, cold, light, dark, and treatment by chemicals and radiation. All sorts of mutations, practically all trivial or positively deleterious, have been produced. Man-made evolution? Not really: Few of the geneticists’ monsters could have survived outside the bottles they were bred in. In practice mutants die, are sterile, or tend to revert to the wild type.

In short, like all other living things, fruit flies possess specially created genetic information. The slightest alteration in that information only leads to harm.

(Citation links removed)

If appears that more of the “evidence” is contrary to your position.

Are you bluffing? Yes! If you know where the evidence is buried in your 349,000 hits, please point to it with specificity. My perusal indicates it is not so easy to find. I’m calling your bluff.

Stephen 

END STERUSJON QUOTE: 

Now, let me make another prediction.  The third step that I described [i.e., “crickets”] will now follow.  Don’t get me wrong.  Alan and others will likely post comments at a frenetic pace in response to Stephen’s work.  What you will not see is any comment that actually demonstrates that the drosophila mutation experiments establish Darwinist claims beyond dispute as the Darwinists so often claim.

Classic.

Comments
Chance Ratcliff (286) About Thomas Nagel and David Deutsch … the thing is that I’m appalled by their obvious irrational inclination to naturalism. It’s very telling that one dares to propose teleological principles without involving a creator. I prefer the “consciousness is an illusion tripe” as an opponent.
Chance Ratcliff: I don’t find it helpful to disregard the opinions of thoughtful atheists because I can’t accept their metaphysics in full, but perhaps I misunderstand you.
Thank you for pointing this out. Perhaps I will reconsider my ways.
Chance Ratcliff: The nature of information is largely enigmatic, as is the nature of consciousness, maybe because the two are fundamentally related, being arguably immaterial quantities.
I agree that the two are fundamentally related. Information, like meaning and thoughts, only exists within consciousness. Thoughts imply consciousness. The meaning of a gesture is context depended. One cannot isolate a gesture from its context. One cannot ask ‘what is does it mean (what is the information) when someone raises his hand?’. It may be a 1 million dollar bid on a painting or something entirely different. The thoughts ‘in’ a book enter in existence when someone (a consciousness) reads the book. If no one reads the book there are no ‘thoughts in the book’. I mean there is nothing more than paper and ink; the book doesn’t glow in the dark. Same goes for information. I think it’s accurate to say that information only exists in the context of a mind. In regard to pheromones one should say that the information (and its meaning!) only exist because there is an ant colony.Box
March 11, 2013
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gracias mi amigoUpright BiPed
March 11, 2013
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Upright BiPed,
"Information is the incomplete form of a thing, instantiated in the arrangement of a material medium. It is not reducible to its medium, which is why we must see it in action to know it exists. It has causal powers within a system, which dictates that it must precede its effect."
That's a nice way of putting it. :)Chance Ratcliff
March 11, 2013
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Alan, Quite frankly, I think you know perfectly well what I was getting at. My point, for the benefit of others who chance by, was to try to pin you down with regard to your denial of the validity the concepts captured in the acronyms CSI, fCSI and the dreaded FSCO/I. You have proven to be more slippery than I thought. I could not see how anyone could make such an absurd presentation in such a small space as you have succeeded in doing. Live and learn, I guess. Since you have made no objection to my PS. in #278, may I conclude that I was essentially correct in my characterization of your answers? Stephen PS. I point of fact I believe I had a measure of success in that Alan showed his objection to FSCO/I is an incoherent denial of the obvious.sterusjon
March 11, 2013
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282, The question is the same one you copied in your post: "can you derive the coordinated social response “attack the invader” from the chemical bonds of the pheromone, or does one need the action of the system in order to establish that correspondence?" Your previous answer was "no", and is the correct answer. 'When' an ant should attack its enemies is not something established by physical law. It is established by information acting within a system. That is what the phreromone accomplishes, it gives form to the action of the colony in response to an intruder.Upright BiPed
March 11, 2013
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Hello Box,
Upright BiPed, what is information? Information (form) is something that can be transferred through a material medium. But what is it? Is it something tangible? I take it that you are not speaking metaphorical?
No, I am not speaking metaphorically. Information is a real, tangible thing. The argument I am making is concerned with being able to materially identify information, so I approach it from that perspective and try to limit myself to those material observations I can defend. As you can imagine, creating endless lines of speculation is not advantageous when arguing with those determined to side-track a dialogue. Having said that… Information is the incomplete form of a thing, instantiated in the arrangement of a material medium. It is not reducible to its medium, which is why we must see it in action to know it exists. It has causal powers within a system, which dictates that it must precede its effect. Through universal experience, it has only been observed within the living kingdom. And from a purely material perspective, it is only associated with pre-existing organization.Upright BiPed
March 11, 2013
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Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, Box. ;) Perhaps it's only me, but I can certainly appreciate the opinions of atheists where they differ from garden-variety reductionism. Would you refuse to suffer Thomas Nagel, who as an atheist rejects neo-Darwinist explanations of life and instead posits some sort of natural teleology? Deutsch's admission that information is causal, and irreducible to matter, is noteworthy among the stale, "consciousness is an illusion" tripe that masquerades as intelligent thought; it's more in line with what we observe, regardless of the fact that we won't agree about agency or theism. I hazard to suggest that I have more in common with Nagel and Deutsch in regard to the nature of reality than I do with Dawkins, et al. I don't know the religious affiliation of James Shapiro, but I can certainly summon some respect for the concept of "natural genetic engineering" because it more accurately describes the observations than do "unguided processes," even though this would beg the question if used as an explanation of origins. I don't find it helpful to disregard the opinions of thoughtful atheists because I can't accept their metaphysics in full, but perhaps I misunderstand you. The nature of information is largely enigmatic, as is the nature of consciousness, maybe because the two are fundamentally related, being arguably immaterial quantities. Given such mysteries, I find it quite helpful to consider not only what information is (causal) but what information is not (reducible). For that reason I found the Deutsch interview fascinating, despite his atheism. However there may be helpful ways to describe or define information, based on what we observe. For a given function F:A→B, which maps between arbitrary arrangements of matter from set A to set B, we can consider the information portion of the arrangement, the elements of set A, as their image under F:; this defines the material arrangements in set A in terms of their effects, the elements in set B. We could alternately define information as the specification of a functional arrangement of matter which produces a well-defined effect or something of that sort. We can also consider information as that which agency can uniquely accomplish attempting to tie the definition with its known source. None of these are entirely satisfying, perhaps because analyzing the cause of consciousness is a little bit like trying to look at one's own face without a mirror. maybe in some respects the wikipedia description is as good as any:
Information, in its most restricted technical sense, is a sequence of symbols that can be interpreted as a message. Information can be recorded as signs, or transmitted as signals. Information is any kind of event that affects the state of a dynamic system. Conceptually, information is the message (utterance or expression) being conveyed. The meaning of this concept varies in different contexts.[1] Moreover, the concept of information is closely related to notions of constraint, communication, control, data, form, instruction, knowledge, meaning, understanding, mental stimuli, pattern, perception, representation, and entropy. Wikipedia - Information
Whatever information is, it is not easily extricated from the notions embodied by consciousness (representation, perception, stimuli, knowledge, meaning, understanding, etc.). It may not be logically possible to fully analyze consciousness, since analysis requires both an observer and a subject, and each distinctly. It may be that, for that reason, we can readily observe the effects of consciousness, but only where they are distinct from the observer. And down the rabbit hole it goes.Chance Ratcliff
March 11, 2013
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Alan Fox:
Well, you’re the expert at not answering questions.
Alan, you are an expert not answering questions. Perhaps if you were a little more giving in that area...Joe
March 11, 2013
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William,
It’s a little depressing, at times, to think that people can be so relentlessly immune to the obvious.
Depressing, but helpful. Years ago I found myself in a truly skeptical search on the question of origins. Alan's method of defense of "natural explanations only" was found to be quite prevalent in that search. It brought to my mind the question, "What are they hiding under all those confident assertions when I just want an actual answer to a simple question- 'How do you know?'?" and can get a straight answer that actually acknowledges my concern and addresses it. There are those who truly would like to understand what the real answer is. Maybe one of them will wander by and take notice, too. Stephensterusjon
March 11, 2013
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Stephen in 278 Just make your point if there is one.Alan Fox
March 11, 2013
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Upright Biped:
Alan, the ability to synthesize a substitute for a pheromone does not answer the questions asked.
Well, you're the expert at not answering questions. I figure you owe mea few. Paste your question again. Even better, rephrase it to make it less ambiguous.Alan Fox
March 11, 2013
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Chance Ratcliff (277), To be quite honest I didn't enjoy that video. David Deutsch, an atheist, believes in 'emergent properties (*poof* consciousness, *poof* free will, *poof* information) that do have an effect'. It doesn't help me to get a coherent idea of what information is.Box
March 11, 2013
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franklin @266: What information do you contend exists in the first place that could be transferred?Eric Anderson
March 11, 2013
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Willful equivocation and obsfucation in place of honest and truely sceptical discourse?, I ask of you in our audience.
It's rather obvious that what goes on in a lot of these exchanges is that the anti-ID advocate understands where straightforward, honest answers to simple, straightforward questions inevitably lead, and so inserts obfuscation and equivocation to derail, distract and deny. Some ID advocates I've run into would not even admit that humans engage in intelligent design. Whether they are being willfully dishonest in this behavior ... I don't know. In this arena, I prefer to think that I'm interacting with Turing machines when a responder absolutely refuses to understand very simple concepts and very simple arguments thereof. It's a little depressing, at times, to think that people can be so relentlessly immune to the obvious.William J Murray
March 11, 2013
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Alan, Thanks for the clarification in #272. Now, onward.
Is there no obvious difference to you in the following two blocks of text? (see #180 above)
You say, "Yes." I say, "Agreed!" (I suspect some disingenuity from what I see onward from here.)
If there is a difference, is it imaginary?
You say, "No." I say, "Agreed!"
If it is not an imaginary difference, is it conceivably describable?
You say, "No." I say, "What are you smokin'?"
If it is describable, is it conceivably quantifiable?
You say, "Yes." I say, "Trick answer! From your perspective the undescribable is equal to null so whatever undescribable difference you see in two blocks of text is meaningless." Well, let's go back to your response to question three. Do you deny that the text in the first block conforms to the rules of the programming language C++ whereas the second does not? Is that not a description of an observable difference? I can elaborate on the difference further, but that much will suffice for my point. Do you really mean to reduce your position to such absurdity? Stephen PS. Onlookers. Equivocation and obsfucation leap to mind. I suspect that the difference that Alan is admitting of in question # 1 is the difference of the actual characters while absurdly denying of the difference the meaning intentionally placed in the first block of text that is absent in the second! Willful equivocation and obsfucation in place of honest and truely sceptical discourse?, I ask of you in our audience.sterusjon
March 11, 2013
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"Upright BiPed, what is information? Information (form) is something that can be transferred through a material medium. But what is it? Is it something tangible? I take it that you are not speaking metaphorical?"
You might enjoy this ten-minute video featuring Oxford physicist David Deutsch commenting about the nature of information. He seems to believe that information is causal, and irreducible to whatever medium happens to carry it.Chance Ratcliff
March 11, 2013
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Upright BiPed, what is information? Information (form) is something that can be transferred through a material medium. But what is it? Is it something tangible? I take it that you are not speaking metaphorical?Box
March 11, 2013
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Mung @ 250,
"It’s common knowledge amongst those “in the know” that Upright BiPed’s argument is just so much “word salad.” So you need to get on board and stop pretending like you can make sense of it. Word might get around, then people would be trying to find out who you really are. Besides, what you’re describing sounds too much like a code."
My mistake. Allow me to make up for it. For a set of behavioral responses, B = {gather, attack, follow, ...} there is a corresponding set of chemical signals, A = {s1, s2, s3, ...}. It must be true that the chemical signals themselves are the behaviors, and don't merely represent them, because that would be too code-like. Moreover, we don't have to examine the system in which the signals operate to determine the behaviors they invoke, because that "information" is present in the signals themselves independent of any systemic context. By implication, the binary sequence 01000001 is the letter 'A', not merely a representation of it; and the letter 'A' is the sound "ay" and so on.Chance Ratcliff
March 11, 2013
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Alan, Alan, the ability to synthesize a substitute for a pheromone does not answer the questions asked.Upright BiPed
March 11, 2013
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Apologies to Upright Biped. My earlier reply:
In other words, can you derive the coordinated social response “attack the invader” from the chemical bonds of the pheromone, or does one need the action of the system in order to establish that correspondence?
No. No more than you can predict the biological activity of a novel protein sequence without synthesizing it and testing it and of course that activity or lack would depend on context. Not to say anything of how pheromone production and detection could co-evolve!
was rushed, not very clear and probably wrong! I should have thought more about the fact that most known pheromones are not proteins but chemicals that could in principle (and as franklin points out at least in some case in practice) be synthesized and I suspect functional synthetic substitutes could be predicted and produced. Here's a 2008 review of ant pheromones from "Myrmecological News". Here's another considering evolutionary pathways for pheromones.Alan Fox
March 11, 2013
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Sterusjon Here are the three question you asked that I answered
If there is a difference, is it imaginary? If it is not an imaginary difference, is it conceivably describable? If it is describable, is it conceivably quantifiable?
The replies are in the same sequence. I see you also asked:
Is there no obvious difference to you in the following two blocks of text?
Answer: Yes the two texts are different. Sorry for not being clear.Alan Fox
March 11, 2013
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UB: Meanwhile, the conditions required of systems that produce concrete physical effects from the input of information, not from physical law alone – remain unchanged, and unchallenged. franklin: so you’ve retreated back to this stance.
Your inability to accurately assess the situation has misled you. I haven't retreated to or from anything in this thread. These are complicated issues and like anyone else, I have the capacity to mis-speak, to be mistaken and to be corrected, but that hasn't happened here. The necessary material conditions to transfer form through a material medium and produce concrete physical effects has been the core of the argument from the very start. And the conditions described in the argument remain unrefuted. So for you to suggest I'm standing by them, or even being forced to stand by them, is probably not the bold positioning statement you might have imagined. And I find it interesting that you want me to return to your question in #193, given that your question has no impact whatsoever on the argument I've proposed. In #193 you want me to quantify the information acting within a system – asking me if a list of chemicals all “contain the same information”. So immediately in #195 I told you to familiarize yourself with the argument so you could ask meaningful questions. Then in #196 you came back to inform me that I was surely mistaken – apparently you've estimated your question in #193 to be the critical issue in the whole affair. I'd like to think I have at least some familiarity with my own argument - perhaps even as much as you. And from my perspective, I can tell you that the quantity (or source, or intent, etc) of information a system may transfer into an effect does not alter the physical requirement that the system actually be capable of transferring information into an effect in the first place. In fact, when you say it out loud like that, it’s almost seems obvious. And it’s given me the crazy idea that any quantity of information transferred by such a system depends entirely upon the system’s ability to transfer information. And since my argument is about the physical conditions required to transfer information in the first place, I have come to consider all objections (to the validity of those physical conditions) based on the quantity of information, as being meaningless to the argument. However, given your last post to me, you seem adamant about it. So let's test it out. In the exchange above, I stated that the effect evoked by a pheromone (e.g. the coordinated alarm response in an ant colony) cannot be determined by physical law, for the obvious reason that physical law does not establish such things as “when an ant should attack its enemies.” Therefore the physical characteristics of the pheromone (those making it identifiable and integrated to the system) are used as a medium to transfer form and produce effects which are obviously not determined by physical characteristics of the pheromone. In other words, the product of the pheromone acting within the system (attack the invaders) is the product of form being inputted to the system, not the product inexorable physical law. So what is at issue here are physical necessities. There are realities such as “when an ant should attack its enemies” which are not determined by physical law, and therefore require a system capable of bringing those realities into being. Such systems use a medium (an arrangement of matter to evoke an effect) in order to accomplish that task. The medium evokes an effect but cannot determine what that effect will because the effect cannot be determined by the physical properties of the medium. It requires the system to establish what the effect will be (i.e. a second arrangement of matter to establish the effect). Now please tell me how quantifying the amount of information transferred in a system alters these physical requirements.Upright BiPed
March 11, 2013
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Franklin, I don't understand where you are headed in #268. Do you want us to believe that the system is buried in noise in the immediate environment and essentially useless? I doubt it. Or are saying the system is more discriminating than you seem to imply by your query about the information content of the chemicals in some list? Have you just multiplied the complexity of the system under discussion with additional coordinated features to instill that discrimination? Stephensterusjon
March 11, 2013
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Yet it is a certain fact that many chemicals pick biochemical locks of all sorts.
I always find it interesting when anti-ID advocates make such entirely irrelevant points. That many chemicals pick many locks is entirely irrelevant to my point that if very many chemicals were able to "pick" this particular lock, it wouldn't be of much use as an alarm system, because it would constantly be going off for no good reason.
Could you describe this biochemical lock/key system you are making? I’m curious what your downstream design is for your alarm system(s).
Another entirely irrelevant question; I'm explaining/describing examples of the semiotic argument. It doesn't matter what the key is; or what the lock is; or what kind of response system the lock is attached to. All that matters is that the key has physical attributes that "fit" the lock; and that the lock activates whatever response system that it is attached to when the a properly shaped key fits into it.William J Murray
March 11, 2013
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kf
However, for realistic and robust function, all that is required for the system to work well is that in normal environments, it will not usually encounter such spoofs.
But as we both know or at least should know is that organisms encounter these type of chemicals all the time. For example, ant pheromones (those related to 'alarm response') are often some type of carboxylic acid which are encountered frequently in their food. How often do you think ants encounter carboxyilic acids in their fdaily oraging?franklin
March 11, 2013
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Franklin, Speaking for myself, I think that by pressing the point about different ligands activating the receptor, you demonstrating one of UP’s principal contentions. That is, the arbitrary nature of much of the transmitter->channel->receiver system. The fact of the matter is that the specific ligand is of little importance as long as the ligand meets some requirements that make it a reasonably reliable transmission medium. In point of fact, the system has fundamental components, none of which is even required to be a ligand or a chemical for that matter. 1. A means to detect the presence of some danger to the colony. 2. A means to impress upon the environment a signal that can be rather unambiguously represent the danger when detected. 3. A receptor that is sufficiently sensitive to the impressed signal. 4. A mechanism that reliably and appropriately responds to the detection of a signal. A little more discussion about #2. “Rather unambiguously” is intended to encompass such things as signal properties. In a chemical signal that involve such things as the persistence of the chemical in the environment. Too, rapid disintegration would cause the signal to attenuate too soon. Too persistent and the colony may find itself in state of perpetual alarm. Some chemical classes are too common so members of those classes would generate unacceptably frequent false alarms. After taking those and similar caveats into account, the only other restraint on the chemical is that the receptor have some sufficiently high sensitivity to it. As you can see, there is a great deal of flexibility in how the complete system can be implemented. In point of fact, it need not even be chemically based. It could just as easily be transmitted by sound or light, as demonstratted by the existence of such elsewhere in nature Again, I emphasize, speaking for myself, I see the information (I prefer to think of it in terms of “a message”) being contained, in the ant pheromone instance, in the presence and concentration of the specific chemical produced by the ants in response to what they detect as danger. That message is present even if there are no other ants in existence. I will grant that it is a futile call for help. But it is a call, none the less. If one were to investigate in a lab and, when threatening ants, invariably detected the production of a certain chemical one would be justified to hypothesize a message to other ants as a possible purpose (along with defensive mechanism, metabolic byproduct etc.) for the chemical’s production. The message is present whether there is a receiver present or not. For instance, if the ant colony’s queen had a genetic defect that rendered the receptors in operative, the message would still be generated. A word of caution. The message is relayed through the system. Upon detection by the receptor, another chemical representation is made in a different set of chemicals. The receptor may be relaying a true message that accurately represents the presence of danger to the colony or a “false” message triggered by a chemical “noise” that bears no relation to the purpose of the system. Bottom line: The information, with regard to the pheromone component of the system, is contained in the correspondence of the presence and concentration of pheromone with the presence and intensity of the danger to the colony. If 100 ants detect danger, the concentration would 100 times that it would be if only one ant sensed danger. “Noise” in the system from any of possibly thousands of other chemicals does not imbue any of those chemicals with information. They simply interfere with the system’s proper operation. With respect to making UP’s point, any one of your listed chemicals could serve as the message carrier, as long as the ants can modulate its presence and concentration in correspondence to the intensity of the detected danger to the colony. (Whether it would make an effective and reliable system is another issue.) In that respect it is not governed by law/necessity but is arbitrary. Stephensterusjon
March 11, 2013
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Eric
The mere existence of a physical object — whether a single molecule, a batch of chemicals, a planet or otherwise — does not mean it contains information. Similarly, one would have to take a close look at the particular processes involved in any specific sequence of events in an organism to determine whether information is being transferred on a case-by-case basis, but the mere occurrence of a chemical reaction does not necessarily mean that information has been transferred. Again, we need to focus on the representative aspect.
OK, so it would be an accurate description to say that epinephrine and allbutorol contain the same ‘representative aspect’ to an organism with beta 2 receptors with both transferring the same information?franklin
March 11, 2013
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I didn't attack sociology. I showed the absurdity of arguing from "what most prestigious institutions [or people] think," by using the example of the general low esteem in which sociology is held by most scientists. Should the sociology department be trashed because most of the physicists, chemists, and biologists think that sociology is scientific bunk, and a waste of taxpayers' money that could be better spent on nanotechnology, medical research, etc.? If that's a reasonable conclusion, then I guess Gregory's implied argument against ID is reasonable, too. Put another way: Gregory is arguing: "Bejan and Francis Collins and Gingerich and Feser and the gurus of the Faraday Institute are really smart guys, and they think ID is unscientific trash, so everyone should agree that ID is unscientific trash." But I could say: "8 of 10 Nobel Prize Winners in Chemistry, Medicine, and Physics think that sociology is unscientific trash, and they are really smart guys, so it must be true that sociology is unscientific trash." The reasoning is parallel. And if Gregory answers: "Yeah, but those guys aren't qualified to evaluate sociology," the answer is: "But sociology claims to be "science" (just as ID claims to be science, in Gregory's posts). And since chemistry, physics and medicine were all well-established sciences before sociology came along, surely they have the right to decide whether sociologists have rightly taken on the title of "scientific" or are frauds who have usurped it. So before the sociologists have the right to say their work is "scientific," they have to get approval from the senior sciences -- and that approval has been largely withheld. Or if Gregory says: "No, the sociologists don't have to accept the narrow, constrictive understanding of "scientific" used by these older sciences" -- then fine; similarly, ID people don't have to accept the narrow, constrictive understanding of "natural science" (which excludes teleology and design inferences) used by Darwinian biologists, the NCSE, the Faraday Institute, BioLogos, etc. If sociology were invented tomorrow, and its 'scientific' status went up before Judge Jones in Harrisburg, and "expert witnesses" were called in on both sides (Harvard and Caltech physicists, chemists, and biologists on the anti-side, and novelists and social reformers plus a handful of maverick politics professors on the pro-side), I wonder what his ruling would be? (Given how easily he was led by the nose by arguments from authority in his ruling on what counts as "scientific" and what doesn't, I think the answer is pretty clear.)Timaeus
March 11, 2013
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Wow! Just wow! That's a really jaded and sour-faced man. Attacking sociology simply because he doesn't want to go to church too early in the morning. Sad times for Timaeus at UD.Gregory
March 11, 2013
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Gregory wrote: "Most credible scholarly institutions worldwide ... have rejected ID theory." And therefore, everyone should reject ID, right? Obviously. Let's test the soundness of the argumentative logic here by applying it to determine the value of sociology: "Most people with Ph.D.s in credible scholarly institutions worldwide, in subjects that have a track record of being scientific -- physics, chemistry, biology, geology, geography, economics -- have rejected the claim that sociology is 'scientific'." We could fatten up this claim with more detail: we could add that most Ph.D.s in serious science subjects think that sociology is a "Mickey Mouse" subject for weaker students (and weaker professors) who aren't strong enough in math to do anything really scientific, but like giving a quantitative veneer to what is basically an incoherent mess of left-wing social and political ideology. But there's no need to elaborate; everyone knows the snickering that's heard on every university campus when someone speaks of "the science of sociology." So let's just focus on the quoted statement. The quoted statement is, of course, accurate. So does it follow that we should reject sociology as a "social science"? Or is there, perhaps, something wrong with the logic of the argument?Timaeus
March 11, 2013
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