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Wow! Just Wow!

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This has never happened to me until today.  I made a prediction about Darwinist debating tactics and the prediction was fulfilled in the very post in which I made it!!! 

In this post I describe the common Darwinist “literature bluff” tactic: 

Note carefully the common Darwinist tactic here:

Literature bluff: There are thousands of books and articles demonstrating Darwinist proposition X.

Calling the bluff: OK, show me exactly where in just one of those books or articles this proposition is established.

Inevitable Darwinist response: [crickets]

Then in the comments section Alan Fox posts this link “beneficial mutations drosophila” in comment 8, and in comment 9 he says:  “One or two article in there must be worth a glance, or am I bluffing?! 

This is the classic literature bluff.  Alan is saying, essentially, “Hey look.  I googled “beneficial mutations drosophila” and got 349,000 hits!  QED, the literature proves that scientists have induced beneficial mutations in drosophila, and that in turn proves beyond doubt the Darwinist position on macroevolution.”   

Astounding.  So let’s see how this unfolds [I feel like Flounder in Animal House:  “Oh boy, this is GREAT!”]

Step 1:  Alan makes his literature bluff as described above.

Step 2:  Sterusjon calls Alans bluff when he writes: 

BEGIN STERUSJON QUOTE: 

Just for kicks, I followed your link in post #8. I found 349,000 Google hits. All well and good. I found numerous hits that were irrelevant to the issue. I found that many of the top links lead to the same paper. On that account the 349,000 number is quite deceptive. In addition that often listed paper defined its “beneficial” mutation as a change that allowed subsequent generations to survive in an artificial environment of >4% NaCl in their food supply that their distant ancestors could not. Oh, the wonders of micro-evolution to bring about macro-differences is thus demonstrated.

I wonder if the salt tolerance would persist if the flies where returned to “normal” feeding conditions? Just as Scambray noted about other “beneficial” mutations.

But more than that, I found these two links:

http://news.sciencemag.org/sci…..23-05.html where I found:

The researchers turned to the fruit fly Drosophila melanogaster to test this hypothesis. By crafting synthetic chromosomes, they created flies that reproduce asexually. They then established 17 populations of these asexual flies, all with white eyes. For comparison, they also set up 17 populations of white-eyed sexual flies. The team then let the insects breed for 10 generations. They added red-eyed flies and artificially favored the red-eyed gene by adding more red-eyed flies each generation. Thus the red-eyed gene mimicked a beneficial mutation. (Emphasis added by me)

“[A]rtificially…mimicked a beneficial mutation” What’s this. No real beneficial mutations?

And http://harunyahya.com/en/Evrim…..Drosophila where this was to be found:

All evolutionist efforts to establish beneficial mutations have ended in failure. In order to reverse this pattern, evolutionists have for decades been carrying out experiments on fruit flies, which reproduce very quickly and which can easily be subjected to mutations. Scientists have encouraged these insects to undergo all kinds of mutations, a great many times. However, not one single useful mutation has ever been observed.

The evolutionist geneticist Gordon R. Taylor describes these evolutionists’ pointless persistence:

It is a striking, but not much mentioned fact that, though geneticists have been breeding fruit flies for sixty years or more in labs all round the world—flies which produce a new generation every eleven days—they have never yet seen the emergence of a new species or even a new enzyme.

Another researcher, Michael Pitman, expresses the failure of the experiments on fruit flies:

. . . geneticists have subjected generations of fruit flies to extreme conditions of heat, cold, light, dark, and treatment by chemicals and radiation. All sorts of mutations, practically all trivial or positively deleterious, have been produced. Man-made evolution? Not really: Few of the geneticists’ monsters could have survived outside the bottles they were bred in. In practice mutants die, are sterile, or tend to revert to the wild type.

In short, like all other living things, fruit flies possess specially created genetic information. The slightest alteration in that information only leads to harm.

(Citation links removed)

If appears that more of the “evidence” is contrary to your position.

Are you bluffing? Yes! If you know where the evidence is buried in your 349,000 hits, please point to it with specificity. My perusal indicates it is not so easy to find. I’m calling your bluff.

Stephen 

END STERUSJON QUOTE: 

Now, let me make another prediction.  The third step that I described [i.e., “crickets”] will now follow.  Don’t get me wrong.  Alan and others will likely post comments at a frenetic pace in response to Stephen’s work.  What you will not see is any comment that actually demonstrates that the drosophila mutation experiments establish Darwinist claims beyond dispute as the Darwinists so often claim.

Classic.

Comments
Sterusjon 321
Sterusjon: Are you Alan’s doppelganger? As for your hypothetical in #318
I suppose it's best to ignore this insult.
Sterusjon: Without obtaining any information from either you or your neighbor, an attentive and patient and very nosey observer could decode the information in the absence of two bottles. After enough data points, such an observer could deduce that there is a correlation between milk bottles and maternal visits and from that be able to accurately predict the next non-visitation of your mother.
If I have a long-term agreement with my neighbor, you may be right. Of course it could have been a one-time agreement, in which case you are wrong.
Sterusjon: From where does he get the information if, as you say, it is only in the minds of you and your neighbor?
My point is that the nosey observer cannot get information directly just from the milk bottles or their non-present counterparts in isolation. The multiple occurrences have to be integrated in a context. The nosey observer has to study relations within context. The information is not in the bottles (or in their arrangement) nor can information be derived from them when studied in isolation – without context. It is his mind which is capable of contextualizing the empty milk bottles and the visits and can detect their meaningful relationship.Box
March 14, 2013
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Box, Are you Alan’s doppelganger? As for your hypothetical in #318 Without obtaining any information from either you or your neighbor, an attentive and patient and very nosey observer could decode the information in the absence of two bottles. After enough data points, such an observer could deduce that there is a correlation between milk bottles and maternal visits and from that be able to accurately predict the next non-visitation of your mother. From where does he get the information if, as you say, it is only in the minds of you and your neighbor? Stephensterusjon
March 14, 2013
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Box @318: You have a code you have agreed upon with your neighbor. The information has been produced (by you) and now exists. Whether anyone ever looks at the information is logically another question. Also, the fact that one individual (your neighbor) is capable of recognizing more information than someone else (the man off the street), does not mean that the information doesn't exist. Again, don't get hung up on the idea that information only exists in an intelligent agent's mind. This is quite simple. Either there is something there to be recognized or there isn't. If there is, we call it information. We can feel free to come up with some other term for it, but that is just a semantic exercise, and we aren't going to gain any traction, because the concept of information as used in everyday life is as I have described it.Eric Anderson
March 14, 2013
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kf @316: LOL! Thanks for the clarification. But you know what i"m getting at . . . :)Eric Anderson
March 14, 2013
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Eric Anderson (314 & 296) If I don’t arrange two empty milk bottles on my porch my neighbor knows that mother won’t visit me next weekend. That’s the sign my neighbor and I agreed upon. Is there actually information in the not-presence of two empty milk bottles on my porch? Does this information exist objectively in this non-presence? If my neighbor and I won’t tell anyone, will anyone be able to derive this information about the non-actions of my mother from the ‘coded’ void on my porch? There are just signs and minds. And the meaning (information) of those signs resides in our minds and nowhere else.Box
March 14, 2013
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F/N: Re 315, we cannot trust the dismissive summaries presented by objectors to ID. (Cf my onward links, above, here.) Okay, let's use the chi_500 metric that was developed as a log reduction and simplification of the Dembski Chi metric (and which MG failed to recognise as a log calculation, trying to dismiss as a probability calc. Something Mr May never came back to in any satisfactory manner; let's just say that at that point the pretence of being a Math whiz evaporated.) 1: Chi_500 = I*S - 500, bits beyond the solar system threshold for FSCO/I. 2: We have here 230 ASCII characters at 7 bits/128 states per character (the 8th bit commonly used is a parity check bit, it is not a free digit), i.e. 1610 bits 3: Now S is a dummy variable on functional specificity, which defaults to 0 unless there is positive reason to set it to 1. 4: We have above 230 characters in an ASCII string structure, in English, with at least one typo, a misspelling of "spent." 5: it is reasonable to conclude, functional specificity, as recognised. 6: Chi_500 metric value: Chi_500 = 1610 * 1 - 500 = 1110 bits beyond the solar system level FSCO/I threshold 7: Inference on the bit string: designed. 8: I assume the objector is unwilling to state that his string originated by lucky noise on the internet so we can chalk this up to yet another successful case of the FSCO/I inference being confirmed as a reliable index of intelligent design. ________ AF has been repeatedly corrected on this point, but insists on using a dismissive talking point. At this stage, sadly, I think this goes to character. KFkairosfocus
March 14, 2013
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Folks, dere ent no string o' karactuhs on no haad driv, noway! Dey's be onlys magnetic fieldz! Daaz allz.kairosfocus
March 14, 2013
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Alan Fox @302:
There was a commenter using the pseudonym “Mathgrrl” (real name Patrick May) who spet a while asking for a demonstration of how to calculate CSI. The squirming failure to produce anything remotely plausible was painful to observe.
Can you tell us how much specified information exists in the above quote from you? If you can, then you're basically there. If you deny that it can be calculated, then you eviscerate your own argument.Eric Anderson
March 13, 2013
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Mung @313: Sorry, but you can't disagree. :) Kidding aside, it is not likely for me to be substantively mistaken on this point, because the attempt to collapse information and the recognition of that information is but a semantic game. First of all, let me point out that your requirement that information "inform" is not a counter to my point that recognition is separate from the information itself. I don't have a particular issue with the idea that information has the ability to "inform." But the act of informing is not the same as the existence of the information itself. So I'm not sure if your statement really disagrees with me. But just to flesh things out for purposed of discussion, if someone were to argue that recognizing information and the existence of the information are the one and the same, they would be incorrect for the reasons I have outlined. Reread my comment #296, but in case I didn't explain it well the first time, let me offer a simple example. Let's say we have a string of characters on a hard drive. We want to know whether it contains information (for purposes of forensics, for example). We have two possibilities: either it does or it does not. Yet at this moment we do not know. We have not recognized the information. It has not yet informed us. So under the collapsed idea of recognition/existence, we can definitively answer at this moment that "No, the string does not contain any information." And that statement would be absolutely, unequivocally, 100% true, not because it is substantively the case, but because we have definitionally said that everything we don't know is non-information. In other words, we have just defined the question away. And -- in a great twist of irony -- by so defining "information" we have robbed our very answer of all meaningful information content. So if I'm running the forensics lab and you tell me that there is no information on the hard drive (because you haven't recognized it yet), and I ask whether you have even looked at the contents of the drive yet, a "No" response is likely to get you fired or reprimanded. Furthermore, if I know you are being a smartaleck and playing a semantic game with me about what constitutes "information," then instead of asking you whether there is information on the hard drive I will ask you whether there is anything on the hard drive, that when retrieved, reviewed and analyzed would be reasonably recognized as information. And to top it off, to save time thereafter, I will tell you that whenever in the future I ask you whether something (a hard drive, a floppy disk, a book, a document, etc.) contains "information," that is what I am referring to. So I can just define my way back out of the silly problem we created and return substantive meaning to our original question. And, indeed, that is nearly always what we mean by "information". When we ask whether something contains information we are asking whether it is objectively there. We are asking whether there is something that can be recognized as information, not whether we have bothered to look or whether we have already recognized it as such. Finally, we can note that the act of recognizing a piece of information does not produce the information in question. That would result in other absurd incongruities. So, yes, information is capable of informing and it often can produce an effect. But the act of recognizing information is not the same as the existence of the information itself.Eric Anderson
March 13, 2013
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Eric:
The information and the recognition of the information are separate.
I disagree. If it fails to inform, it is not information. Upright BiPed's argument would also seem to require that there be an effect.Mung
March 13, 2013
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Chance Ratcliff:
Thoughts in a book, outside of the context of a mind, are just ink and paper.
Nope. There are no thoughts in a book. There are no ideas in a book. There are no books.Mung
March 13, 2013
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Chance @286, I thought you had repented of your codism. But now it seems like you are once again appealing to codes. This must UAG!Mung
March 13, 2013
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Chance @275, And so now you can see that no physical laws are violated and Upright BiPed's argument may as well have come out of a cracker jack box.Mung
March 13, 2013
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So talk of locks and keys and anti-spoofing brings something to mind with respect to pheromones and information transfer. If the lock can be opened by just any old key, what sort of lock is it, really? If the same pheromone means "food that way" and "it's time to party!" and "it's time to sleep," what good would it be? We're talking about discrimination. About meaning vs non-meaning. The question "how much information" is nonsensical. Enough information. Not too much, not too little. The alternatives are no response or varied responses.Mung
March 13, 2013
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franklin:
Could you describe this biochemical lock/key system you are making? I’m curious what your downstream design is for your alarm system(s).
Design? Who said anything about design?Mung
March 13, 2013
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F/N: On Metrics for FSCI, here in context (and there is much more, here and so forth). I am sure nothing will ever be acceptable to the dismissively selectively hyperskeptical, especially when it cuts to the heart of their claims. So, I now only care to provide record for the reasonable. And, evolutionary materialism is inherently unreasonable, being self-refuting. KFkairosfocus
March 12, 2013
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Alan Fox:
I don’t know how long you have been following this site. There was a commenter using the pseudonym “Mathgrrl” (real name Patrick May) who spet a while asking for a demonstration of how to calculate CSI.
And it was provided. All Patty did was say it wasn't good enough- IOW he acted like the bratty child he is. It was very telling that Pat could never give us anything from his positiion that we could could compare CSI against. It's easy to disagree- any child can do that. However Pat could never provide any reason nor anything that he accepts that we could compare with.
I am sure the “laws” of this present universe are not violated in ant colonies.
The point is that the laws alone cannot account for any colonies (nor termite mounds nor beaver dams).Joe
March 12, 2013
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Alan,
Well, why not just ask? Pin me down about CSI etc?
Why not indeed! I made the following statement about what I suspected of your method of discourse:
PS. Onlookers. Equivocation and obfuscation leap to mind. I suspect that the difference that Alan is admitting of in question # 1 is the difference of the actual characters while absurdly denying of the difference the meaning intentionally placed in the first block of text that is absent in the second! Willful equivocation and obfuscation in place of honest and truly skeptical discourse?, I ask of you in our audience.
You have had ample opportunity to disabuse me of my suspicion. You have not. Why not just ask? Because I have not expectation of getting a straight answer out of you is why. I, also, asked:
Do you deny that the text in the first block conforms to the rules of the programming language C++ whereas the second does not? Is that not a description of an observable difference?
You did not answer. (So much for just asking a question.) Based on your lack of correction of any misapprehensions I may have, I assume my assessment of your answer to my first question was correct. And, therefore, I conclude that you refuse to acknowledge that the first block of text has any meaning, with respect to C++, intentionally imbedded within it. A wildly foolish position to embrace so tenaciously. All of that tells me, and our audience, that you are not to be taken seriously in any intelligent discussion about anything, whatsoever. You are wildly foolish and that makes you a raving lunatic! Bottom line. If you cannot even acknowledge the very existence of the obvious, talking about qualifying and quantifying it is a waste of words. By parsing out the issue, I had hoped to find the reason we have come to different conclusions about CSI and its derivatives. It seems there are no reasons. You are just loony tunes from the get-go. Stephensterusjon
March 12, 2013
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You might take a look at the article I linked to in comment 273. An evolutionary pathway is suggested deriving from cuticular hydrocarbons originally present for waterproofing and being co-opted as nest_mate recognition.
I may have been mistaken about you Alan. It seems you are still unable to differentiate between how a system operates and the origin of that system. How you can even say “co-opted for nest-mate recognition” and still not get it is beyond me. Apparently, nest-mate recognition is a chemical property of hydrocarbons.Upright BiPed
March 12, 2013
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Oops missed a tag. First paragraph in 302 is a quote from Sterusjon.Alan Fox
March 12, 2013
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My point, for the benefit of others who chance by, was to try to pin you down with regard to your denial of the validity the concepts captured in the acronyms CSI, fCSI and the dreaded FSCO/I. You have proven to be more slippery than I thought. Well, why not just ask? Pin me down about CSI etc? My view is that CSI (and derivatives) are bogus. I don't know how long you have been following this site. There was a commenter using the pseudonym "Mathgrrl" (real name Patrick May) who spet a while asking for a demonstration of how to calculate CSI. The squirming failure to produce anything remotely plausible was painful to observe.Alan Fox
March 12, 2013
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Upright Biped (288):
“can you derive the coordinated social response “attack the invader” from the chemical bonds of the pheromone, or does one need the action of the system in order to establish that correspondence?”
Your previous answer was “no”, and is the correct answer.
You might take a look at the article I linked to in comment 273. An evolutionary pathway is suggested deriving from cuticular hydrocarbons originally present for waterproofing and being co-opted as nest_mate recognition. "Attack the invader" is rather anthropomorphic and "detect shared smell - nest-mate" and "no right smell - intruder" is all that's needed. Of course this is raw material for evolutionary processes to develop, diversify and "fine-tune".
‘When’ an ant should attack its enemies is not something established by physical law. It is established by information acting within a system. That is what the phreromone accomplishes, it gives form to the action of the colony in response to an intruder.
Not sure what you mean by "established by physical law". I am sure the "laws" of this present universe are not violated in ant colonies. Anyway, it is apparent that there is much still to be discovered on pheromone signalling in ants and much work in progress aimed at discovering answers on how such systems have evolved.Alan Fox
March 12, 2013
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And what does it mean for the entire planet of evolutionary biologists to know that the genetic code operates within an IC system, producing concrete physical effects which are not determined by physical law, all from a iterative (digital) symbol system, whose causal structures do not exist as a matter of their lowest potential energy state? Evolution dun it baby, and you know that's right. The tiny fact that evolution doesn't even exist until all these physical conditions are met, well... whatever. Evolution dun it.Upright BiPed
March 12, 2013
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I wonder of the Project Director might call up Miller and Co and tell them that to be of any use at all, the genetic code requires the medium to operate within an IC system. No ifs, no ands, and no buts. It simply cannot operate in any other way.Upright BiPed
March 12, 2013
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297. What an intersting turn of events. SETI, looking for a sign of intelligence beyond the borders of our own gravitational pull, finally discovers the genetic code, and finds that the sign of intelligence from beyond our planet was here all along. The NCSE must be going wild.Upright BiPed
March 12, 2013
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Thinking back to the line of discussion on this thread regarding 'keys and locks' there is a very interesting article over on ENV. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/03/a_wow_signal_of069941.htmlPeterJ
March 12, 2013
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Box @293: I think we have to be careful to distinguish between information and recognition of the information. Does the information in my books blink in and out of existence depending on whether I happen to be looking at it? That isn't a very helpful notion of information, and would just require us to create some other term, such as, "that which a mind would recognize as information when looking at it." But if we do that it is just a semantic game, because we can take that long description and just relabel it as "information." Thus, while information flows from a mind and is recognizable by a mind, it does not follow that information does not objectively exist once it has been created. Further, under your hypothesis, the amount of information contained in, say, a written text would depend on who is looking at it. The amount of information I would glean from a hieroglyphic wall in Egypt would be significantly less than the information a trained ancient Egyptian linguist would glean. Yet in both cases there is a mind. One mind is more trained and more capable of recognizing the information that is there. So we have to be able to take the position that information can exist objectively, independent of the particular observer. Yes, it is true, when we recognize information we are doing so by virtue of our mind, but that is what we are doing, namely recognizing the information that already exists in whatever we are studying. The information and the recognition of the information are separate.Eric Anderson
March 11, 2013
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Chance Ratcliff (294)
Chance Ratcliff: (…) you prefer this type of opponent because their belief is taken to its implications, and can be viewed as metaphysically honest.
Exactly. Metaphysically honest and indeed absurd; Alex Rosenburg is almost hilarious.
Chance Ratcliff: I agree. Thoughts in a book, outside of the context of a mind, are just ink and paper.
I’m wondering about my memories; I regard them to be non-physical. Am I saying that they don't exist when I’m not thinking about them? That seems absurd.
But there’s a good metaphysical reason to believe that the information in a book doesn’t cease to exist as soon as the cover is closed: because there is always an Observer. It may be that the universe itself exists from instant to instant because there is a primary Observer who is omnipresent.
That’s a very intriguing concept of existence. Everything exists and continues to exist because it is encapsulated by the mind of God. Can we understand existence differently, since we can only understand something within a context? I do believe though that we, as conscious beings, carry our own existence – at least partly.Box
March 11, 2013
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Box,
"I prefer the “consciousness is an illusion tripe” as an opponent."
I actually identify with that sentiment to some degree. If I understand properly, you prefer this type of opponent because their belief is taken to its implications, and can be viewed as metaphysically honest. However it can also be absurd. Let me make up for the first video by risking another, in which William Lane Craig takes Alex Rosenberg to task for what he considers absurd reasoning: Reductio ad absurdum. I guess I'm saying that while Nagel et al don't carry their observation of teleology to its logical conclusion, imo, they at least carry it to some conclusion that doesn't so easily reduce to "it's just an illusion," which seems like it's designed to end the debate by fiat, and no less absurd than anything Nagel or Deutsch believe. For example, if naturalism is true, then I can't actually think about anything. If we take this as a premise, and add the premise, "naturalism is true" then the conclusion is that I can't actually think about anything. However, as Craig does in the video, we can use the first premise and add our own second premise: I'm thinking about naturalism. The conclusion then becomes, naturalism is not true. Many atheists are lead to the first formulation, which is indeed honest with regard to a non-negotiable premise (naturalism is true), but this leaves no room for experience and observation to dictate otherwise.
The thoughts ‘in’ a book enter in existence when someone (a consciousness) reads the book. If no one reads the book there are no ‘thoughts in the book’. I mean there is nothing more than paper and ink; the book doesn’t glow in the dark. Same goes for information. I think it’s accurate to say that information only exists in the context of a mind.
I agree. Thoughts in a book, outside of the context of a mind, are just ink and paper. But there's a good metaphysical reason to believe that the information in a book doesn't cease to exist as soon as the cover is closed: because there is always an Observer. It may be that the universe itself exists from instant to instant because there is a primary Observer who is omnipresent.Chance Ratcliff
March 11, 2013
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Upright BiPed (287)
UB: Information is the incomplete form of a thing, instantiated in the arrangement of a material medium. It is not reducible to its medium, which is why we must see it in action to know it exists.
I'm still unable to understand your concept if information. What is the information in a written text? There is just paper and ink when no one is looking. Indeed one 'sees it in action' when one reads a text. It enters into existence after the written text is transformed into thoughts. And thoughts have meaning within consciousness. Can we say that consciousness completes 'the incomplete form'?Box
March 11, 2013
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