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Should we recognise that “laws of nature” extend to laws of our human nature? (Which, would then frame civil law.)

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Laws of Nature are a key part of the foundation of modern science. This reflects not only natural, law-like regularities such as the Law of Gravitation that promotes the Earth to the heavens (from being the sump of the cosmos) but also the perspective of many founders that they were thinking God’s creative, ordering providential and world-sustaining thoughts after him. The focal topic asks us whether our civil law is effectively an accident of power balances, or else, could it be accountable to a built in law that pivots on first duties coeval with our humanity.

The issue becomes pivotal, once we ponder the premise that the typical, “natural” tendency of government is to open or veiled lawless oligarchy:

So, let us hear Cicero in his On The Republic, Bk 3 [c. 55 – 54 BC]:

{22.} [33] L . . . True law is right reason in agreement with nature , it is of universal application, unchanging and everlasting; it summons to duty by its commands, and averts from wrongdoing by its prohibitions. And it does not lay its commands or prohibitions upon good men in vain, though neither have any effect on the wicked. It is a sin to try to alter this law, nor is it allowable to attempt to repeal any part of it, and it is impossible to abolish it entirely. We cannot be freed from its obligations by senate or people, and we need not look outside ourselves for an expounder or interpreter of it. And there will not be different laws at Rome and at Athens, or different laws now and in the future, but one eternal and unchangeable law will be valid for all nations and all times, and there will be one master and ruler, that is, God, over us all, for he is the author of this law, its promulgator, and its enforcing judge. Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature, and by reason of this very fact he will suffer the worst penalties, even if he escapes what is commonly considered punishment. . . . – Marcus Tullius Cicero, On the Republic, Bk 3

This, of course, is further reflected in his De Legibus, which lays out a framework:

With respect to the true principle of justice, many learned men have maintained that it springs from Law. I hardly know if their opinion be not correct, at least, according to their own definition; for “Law (say they) is the highest reason, implanted in nature, which prescribes those things which ought to be done, and forbids the contrary.” This, they think, is apparent from the converse of the proposition; because this same reason, when it [37]is confirmed and established in men’s minds, is the law of all their actions.

They therefore conceive that the voice of conscience is a law, that moral prudence is a law, whose operation is to urge us to good actions, and restrain us from evil ones.

We see in the Angelic Doctor, a broadening of the framework, elaborating four domains of law:

Thus, following Aquinas, we can see that arguably there is an intelligible core of law coeval with our responsible, rational, significantly free nature. This built-in law turns on inescapable, thus self-evident truths of justice and moral government, which rightly govern what courts may rule or parliaments legislate, per the premise of justice moderated by requisites of feasible order in a world that must reckon with the hardness of men’s hearts. Where, we are thus duty bound, morally governed creatures.

Hence, we come to the sense of duty attested to by sound conscience [“conscience is a law”], that breathes fire into what would otherwise be inert statements in dusty tomes. We may term these, by extension, the Ciceronian First Duties of Reason:

FIRST DUTIES OF RESPONSIBLE REASON

We can readily identify at least seven inescapable first duties of reason. “Inescapable,” as they are so antecedent to reasoning that even the objector implicitly appeals to them; i.e. they are self-evident. Namely, duties,

1 – to truth, 

2 – to right reason

3 – to prudence, 

4 – to sound conscience, 

5 – to neighbour; so also, 

6 – to fairness and

7 – justice 

x – etc.

[I add, Mar 12, for clarity:] {Of course, there is a linked but not equivalent pattern: bounded, error-prone rationality often tied to ill will and stubbornness or even closed mindedness; that’s why the study of right reason has a sub-study on fallacies and errors. That we seek to evade duties or may make errors does not overthrow the first duties of reason, which instead help us to detect and correct errors, as well as to expose our follies.}

Such built-in . . . thus, universal . . . law is not invented by parliaments, kings or courts, nor can these principles and duties be abolished by such; they are recognised, often implicitly as an indelible part of our evident nature. Hence, natural law,” coeval with our humanity, famously phrased in terms of “self-evident . . . rights . . . endowed by our Creator” in the US Declaration of Independence, 1776. (Cf. Cicero in De Legibus, c. 50 BC.) Indeed, it is on this framework that we can set out to soundly understand and duly balance rights, freedoms and duties; which is justice, the pivot of law.

The legitimate main task of government, then, is to uphold and defend the civil peace of justice through sound community order reflecting the built in, intelligible law of our nature. Where, as my right implies your duty a true right is a binding moral claim to be respected in life, liberty, honestly acquired property, innocent reputation etc. To so justly claim a right, one must therefore demonstrably be in the right.

Where, prudence can also be seen via Aristotle’s summary:  “. . . [who aptly] defined prudence as recta ratio agibilium, ‘right reason applied to practice.’ The emphasis on ‘right’ is important . . .  Prudence requires us to distinguish between what is right and what is wrong . . . If we mistake the evil for the good, we are not exercising prudence—in fact, we are showing our lack of it.”

Of course, we just saw a 400+ comment thread that saw objectors insistently, studiously evading the force of inescapability, where their objections consistently show that they cannot evade appealing to the same first duties that they would dismiss or suggest were so obscure and abstract that they cannot serve as a practical guide. The history of the modern civil rights movement once the print revolution, the civilisational ferment surrounding the reformation and the rise of newspapers, bills, coffee houses etc had unleashed democratising forces speaks to the contrary. The absurdity of appealing to what one seeks to overthrow simply underscores its self evidence. But free, morally governed creatures are just that, free. Even, free to cling to manifest absurdities.

This approach, of course, sharply contrasts with the idea that law is in effect whatever those who control the legal presses issue under that heading; based on power balances and so in effect might and/or manipulation. Aquinas’ corrective should suffice to show that not all that is issued under colour of law is lawful, or even simply prudent towards preserving order in a world of the hardness of men’s hearts.

Yes, obviously, if we are governed by built-in law, that raises the question that there is a cosmic law-giver, qualified to do so not by mere sheer power but also by being inherently good and utterly wise. Such a root of reality also answers the Hume Guillotine and the Euthyphro dilemma: an inherently good and utterly wise, necessary and maximally great being root of reality would bridge IS and OUGHT in the source of all reality and would issue good and wise, intelligible built-in law.

What of Mathematics? The answer is, of course, that a core of Math is inherent in the framework of any possible world. So, this would extend that core of Math tied to sets, structures and quantities expressed in N,Z,Q,R,C,R* etc to any actual world. That answers Wigner’s puzzlement on the universal power of Math and it points to, who has power to create an actual world in which we have fine tuning towards C-Chemistry, aqueous medium, cell based life? Likewise, it is suggestive on the source of the language and algorithms found in D/RNA etc.

Lest we forget, here is Crick, to his son, March 19, 1953:

So, we have come full circle, to law as expressing ordering principles of the dynamic-stochastic physical world and those of the world of intelligent, rational, morally governed creatures. Surprise — NOT — the design thesis is central to both. END

PS: As a reminder, the McFaul dirty form colour revolution framework and SOCOM insurgency escalator

U/D Feb 14: Outlines on first principles of right reason:

Here, we see that a distinct A — I usually use a bright red ball on a table:

and contrast a red near-ball in the sky, Betelgeuse as it went through a surprise darkening (something we observed separately and independently, it was not a figment of imagination):

. . . is distinct from the rest of the world. A is itself i/l/o its characteristics of being, and it is distinct from whatever else is not A, hence we see that in w there is no x that is A and ~A and any y that is in W will either be A or not A but not both or neither. These three are core to logic: P/LOI, LNC, LEM.

We may extend to governing principles that we have duties toward — never mind whoever may disregard such (and thereby cause chaos):

U/D March 13: The challenge of building a worldview i/l/o the infinite regress issue:

A summary of why we end up with foundations for our worldviews, whether or not we would phrase the matter that way}

Framing a ship:

. . . compare a wooden model aircraft:

. . . or a full scale, metal framework jet:

In short, there is always a foundational framework for any serious structure.

Comments
Viola Lee: Hmmm. A topic and disagreement from other threads seems to have spilled over to this one. He's obsessed with anyone who has stood up to him. He keeps track of conversations from months, even years, ago. Like anyone else even cares or remembers. But Upright Biped never forgets or forgives. He's got a library of quotes and topics that he can bring out at whim in case one of his adversaries says something he disagrees with. Who spends that much time and effort keeping track of what someone says on this forum? It's a bit weird for sure.JVL
March 17, 2021
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Upright Biped: This is a fallacious appeal to authority that (even if accepted) does absolutely nothing whatsoever to remove the double standard in your reasoning. Do you not understand this? You appeal to authority all the time in your posts. I have the audacity to disagree with you and point out when some of the authorities you quote also disagree with you. This is the actual product of your double standard. Do you not understand this? It is the case that there is no other hard physical evidence for your design argument. There is no outside evidence of a designer who was around . . . when exactly? Who did . . . .what exactly? You can't even specify your claims. Why don't you try at least to nail down your own hypotheses. Again, this is the pay dirt of your double standard. Do you not understand this? If you don’t understand this, then just say so. Your anger points to a lack of argument. As you once said, “If you want to quit, then quit”. Why should I? You keep saying the same things over and over and over again even after they've been addressed, albeit not to your liking. IF you want to have an open and honest dialogue then you're going to have to deal with people disagreeing with you. Why don't you take the opportunity to really listen to their objections and refine your own views? Could it be that your own views are fragile and rickety and liable to break given a certain amount of pressure? How do you explain your anger when you can't browbeat someone to your point of view?JVL
March 17, 2021
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Hmmm. A topic and disagreement from other threads seems to have spilled over to this one.Viola Lee
March 17, 2021
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I have tried to answer you many, many times.
That is utterly false. Your most substantive response to the double standard in your reasoning, to date is: “I don’t have a double standard.” Sep 2020.
The truth is that at least some of the experts ...
This is a fallacious appeal to authority that (even if accepted) does absolutely nothing whatsoever to remove the double standard in your reasoning. Do you not understand this?
Additionally, there is a massive lack of other evidence...
This is the actual product of your double standard. Do you not understand this?
You are asking for a high level of assumption...
Again, this is the pay dirt of your double standard. Do you not understand this? If you don’t understand this, then just say so.
Can you let it go now...
You mean: Can’t I just stay here and attack ID with flawed reasoning without having to defend the things I say! No, JVL, you can’t. As you once said, “If you want to quit, then quit”.Upright BiPed
March 17, 2021
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Concealed Citizen: It’s always amusing to me when someone builds a fire and then whines when it gets too hot. Well exactly. Welcome to Uncommon Descent. Your transgression might get written down on your permanent record. Let me just say to Kairosfocus in all honesty: Please allow for real, honest discussion of the issues you and others bring up. That would be a real beacon of support and encouragement of free thought and a place where ideas of all kinds can be brought up and discussed. Surely that is a very, very good thing. Yes?JVL
March 17, 2021
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KF: PLEASE LEAVE THIS THREAD, NOW. There will be no further warnings. KF Um, okay. It's always amusing to me when someone builds a fire and then whines when it gets too hot. I win.Concealed Citizen
March 17, 2021
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Upright Biped: *crickets* I have tried to answer you many, many times. You don't like my answers so you continue to deny that I have tried. The truth is that at least some of the experts in symbolic encoded content have NOT agreed with you that that means some kind of design was required in the development of DNA. You continually refuse to accept that you might be wrong in that. Additionally, there is a massive lack of other evidence that there was some kind of intelligent designer around . . . when? Who did . . . what exactly? You are asking for a high level of assumption with no evidence or academic support. Excuse me for not agreeing with you. Can you let it go now or are you just going to keep dogging me like some kind of spurned lover? I have no authority or standing, why do you care so much? Something is weird with you. Perhaps you should think about that.JVL
March 17, 2021
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. 1147 Then you must mean ”like the”.Upright BiPed
March 17, 2021
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Kairosfocus: VL (attn JVL), the views of allegedly most have no more weight than those of one with warrant. You have long since been directed to where you may ponder why there is a difference of views, with what degree of warrant. And we disagree with you and have stated so time and time again. You keep insisting that disagreeing with you is tantamount to denying reality. Is your position falsifiable? Is it possible to disagree with you and be taken seriously? You have refused to engage such, starting with that thread. That is not true. We just disagreed with you. You seem to be saying that disagreeing is the same as not engaging. I won’t even bother with trying to specifically refute your attempt to insinuate that a principled, factually founded view on a matter is the moral equivalent of racism. That alone disqualifies your further comments on the matter from serious consideration. If the shoe fits . . . I now state, I am for abundant cause gavelling the distraction and suggest that you would be well advised to reconsider the immoral equivalency you have tried to suggest. Oh dear, the head master is calling us to task for asking questions and thinking for ourselves. What are we to do now? Agree with him so that we can stay in his good graces or stand up for what we think is right and good and well founded. March to the dictated melody or fine our own tune . . . what would a free thinker do? What would someone who wanted to stand up for free will and free thought do?JVL
March 17, 2021
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re 1145: No, UB, I don't think that is implied by anything KF said.Viola Lee
March 17, 2021
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JVL: It would be easier to get a camel through the eye of a needle.
Pot. Kettle. Black.
JVL: No designer -> no design. What evidence (aside from the contested design) is there that there was an intelligent designer present UB: You’ve been given the evidence and have been completely unable to show that the evidence is anything but 100% coherent and accurate — i.e. it is well-documented in the literature via a) recorded predictions, b) experimental confirmations, and c) secondary physical analysis. These observations are not only universal and uncontroversial, but you have already acknowledged their scientific and historical verity. And it is not merely the factual presence of the observations themselves that you agree with, but also (and in particular) the logic of drawing a design inference from those specific observations. You, in fact, do it yourself without hesitation; that is, you posit a previously unknown intelligence when and if these specific observations are confirmed to exist, as they already are in biology. So, on the one hand you want to believe you are a rational person who “believes in science” and believes in the power of methodical observation. But yet on the other hand, if you actually allowed yourself to do so, then you would be forced to acknowledge something you simply don’t want to concede. You then publicly manage this glowing contradiction by applying a gratuitous double standard to the evidence — which is every bit as obvious and unmistakable as the contradiction it is intended to conceal. This is a real problem for you, and you have thus far used several unscrupulous tactics (which can be listed here, if need be) in an attempt to deflect attention away from the problem. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - JVL, the mechanism required to organize the origin of life is well known. The physical conditions of that mechanism are well-documented in the literature, and have been explained to you on multiple occasions. It is a matter of historical record that the mechanism was first predicted to exist through logical analysis, and subsequently confirmed through experimental result. The critical observations are not even controversial. When confronted with these facts, you respond with a clear intent to avoid the conversation and protect your worldview from science and reason. You accomplish this protectionist sleight-of-hand through the application of flawed reasoning, which you then refuse to address. – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – JVL: I would not be surprised at all if we find electromagnetic evidence of intelligent beings in other solar systems UB: How would we know if we found “electromagnetic evidence of intelligent beings”? What would that be? JVL: Something like in the movie Contact. A signal that’s very clearly NOT produced by unguided processes. A signal which, after inspection, was shown to have compressed data. UB: So you accept encoded symbolic content as a universal inference to the presence of an unknown intelligence in one domain, while immediately denying that same physical evidence in another domain. Why the double standard? JVL: Because there is no plausible designer available
*crickets*Upright BiPed
March 17, 2021
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. Kairos, you view yourself as “inferior”? Now, that is news.Upright BiPed
March 17, 2021
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KF, I do believe that your stand on same-sex relationships and the out-dated (but still prevalent in some places) idea that black people are inferior are both morally wrong. Both deny full status to people based on qualities that are irrelevant to their humanity.Viola Lee
March 17, 2021
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VL (attn JVL), the views of allegedly most have no more weight than those of one with warrant. You have long since been directed to where you may ponder why there is a difference of views, with what degree of warrant. You have refused to engage such, starting with that thread. (I took time to further link above, but will not waste time further by re-linking such; as something else is prior that tells decisively against your attitude as well as argument.) I won't even bother with trying to specifically refute your attempt to insinuate that a principled, factually founded view on a matter is the moral equivalent of racism. That alone disqualifies your further comments on the matter from serious consideration. I now state, I am for abundant cause gavelling the distraction and suggest that you would be well advised to reconsider the immoral equivalency you have tried to suggest. KFkairosfocus
March 17, 2021
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Thanks, JVL.Viola Lee
March 17, 2021
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Viola Lee: post 1138 Hear, hear! Well stated. Not that it's going to matter at all. It would be easier to get a camel through the eye of a needle.JVL
March 17, 2021
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And many people consider your position on same-sex relationships as out-dated as thinking "negroes inferior." (And sadly, there are still those who believe that the latter is true, also.) But I notice that you don't respond to the substance of my post and the way it directly addresses the topic of the thread as stated by you in the title and first paragraph. Using an example is a very reasonable way to address the specifics of an abstract issue, but I also addressed the abstract issue itself. So I stand by what I wrote. P.S. This is relevant.
TOKYO (Reuters) - A Japanese court ruled on Wednesday that not allowing same-sex couples to get married is "unconstitutional," setting a precedent in the only G7 nation not to fully recognise same-sex partnership.
Viola Lee
March 17, 2021
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VL, you know full well that you have chosen to pull a thread off track with a red herring distractor. You were there when there was a thread dealing with your hobby horse. As for, most people think one way or another, most people a generation ago held different opinions on any number of topics including ones freighted with justice, ethics and the like. For example, would, "most people consider negroes inferior" or the like suffice to prove anything? There is after all such a thing as a march of manipulated folly, and there is a crooked yardstick effect, which leads to the need for plumb lines to set them straight. This thread is about plumb lines antecedent to particular states, cultures, legal opinions etc, precisely to see to getting the mess we have been making of our civilisation straight. The issue is, we have self-evident first duties that though seemingly abstract have capability to guide us and have an historic record of leading to sound reformation. The distraction will stop. Now. KFkairosfocus
March 17, 2021
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KF writes, "VL I AM LOOKING STRAIGHT AT YOU AND NAMING YOU IN THE FULL PARLIAMENTARY SENSE. YOU CHOSE TO TRY TO PULL THE THREAD OFF TRACK ABOVE." The title of this thread is "Should We Recognise That “Laws Of Nature” Extend To Laws Of Our Human Nature? (Which, Would Then Frame Civil Law.)" The first paragraph says, "The focal topic asks us whether our civil law is effectively an accident of power balances, or else, could it be accountable to a built in law that pivots on first duties coeval with our humanity." My answer to the OP question and the "else" part of the second question is No. However, I also think your second question presents a false dichotomy: civil law is also not an "accident" of power balances. Human beings are rational, moral, and free-willed creatures (but not for the reasons and in the ways you claim). We have to assess the sometimes very messy real world concerning all sorts of issues, and well-meaning and equally well-qualified people often come to different opinions about things. There are no "correct" answers: people have to hammer it out among themselves how they want their society to be structured. Yes, power and wealth enter into this, but not exclusively, and so does learning and general socialization (both issues mentioned by others during this thread). The civil law we build is not an "accident": rather it the cultural consequence of the actions of people advocating, in whatever ways they can, for what they believe is best for themselves and society in general. A key way in which your philosophy fails is that you insist that in cases of disagreement about moral issues, one party is correctly utilizing "natural law", "right reason", etc., and that the others are defective, as aptly illustrated by your "crooked yardstick" metaphor. So when a real-world situation is brought up, you don't know how to respond other than to fall back, again and again, on abstract philosophy. That is why it is important, and relevant to the OP, to bring up issues which highlight this deficiency. You consider same-sex issues as "sewer" issues. That does nothing other than to highlight how what you think are "natural laws" issues are really just your personal emotional reactions to something you can't fathom: for all your talk about neighborliness, and conscience, and justice, and fairness, you can't in fact empathize with the humanity of people who have different sexual orientations than what you think is correct, nor with all of us who support their desires to be seen and treated as full-fledged fellow citizens and human beings. So I am not "pulling the thread off track." I'm trying to make the thread continue down the track that you refuse to take: one the questions the premises and conclusions you state in your OP. If you ask questions, you need to be prepared for people to answer. The majority of the people in this country support, to various degrees, same-sex relationships, including sexual, and marriage. You don't: you think it's a sign of the decay of civilization. Fine: have your opinion, advocate for your position, gives reasons why you hold it. But don't think that claiming that some proper use of "right reason" gives your opinion some special credence that those of us who disagree with you don't have.Viola Lee
March 17, 2021
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Later, RW . . .kairosfocus
March 17, 2021
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KF, I didn't want you to miss my 1044 and 1048 above. I'm hoping I finally understand you on the "First Duty" thing there.William J Murray
March 17, 2021
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WJM, 1034, as an example: >>When KF says that everything I say or do implies a “First Duty,”>> 1: Your "you're wrong" is a capital example of appealing to first duties of reason, inescapably. This points to their antecedent, self evident character. 2: That is, ordinary folks just routinely use these appeals in thinking, arguing, quarrelling, deciding. Objectors, to try to have rhetorical traction, cannot avoid same. Those who err by trying to prove what is at the root of proof find the appeals embedded in not only their proofs but the very structure of proving and why we seek proofs. 3: We could imagine we can abandon rationality but that is absurd. The sound path is to recognise that these are naturally evident, inescapable antecedents of responsible, rational freedom. Hence, FIRST duties of reason. 4: They frame a built-in law that is then the basis for civil law, if it is to be legitimate, pivoting on justice, due balance of rights, freedoms, duties. >>what I infer is that a duty is necessarily to a goal.>> 5: Obviously, responsible reason by creatures that are finite, fallible, morally struggling, prone to be stubborn and ill willed etc. Where, responsible reason prizes truth, soundness, prudence, justice etc. 6: Truth being accuracy to entities and states of affairs of reality. Those who doubt the priority of truth reveal a disconnect from reality. >> But what is “the goal” of employing logic?>> 7: To get a reliable grasp on what is truthful, rightly reasoned out, prudent, just. Yes, our long term thriving is dependent on these being the prevailing pattern. Those who reject or deride and dismiss our thriving, show themselves to be misanthropes. >>Fundamental logical principles are not a “goal;” >> 8: We are not primarily dealing with principles of logic but duties of right reason, which soundly uses logic towards reliable grasping of what is true, well thought through, prudent, just, etc. The principles of logic are guidelines in such thinking, helping us avert or correct errors. >>there are the necessary, inescapable foundation of how one must pursue any goal.>> 9: We need to think clearly, accurately, reliably to attain a goal, we need good goals compatible with human thriving to rise above ruinous misuse of rationality that frustrates the good and perverts thought, speech, action towards folly, chaos, ruin. As is in manifest progress today. 10: Of course, I just gave an example of what evil is. >>To say that my “duty” is to “use logic properly” is only valid if “using logic properly” is my goal;>> 11: No, using logic properly is an instrument towards the naturally evident, proper goals of thriving sustainably as opposed to ruin: truth, clarity, sound thinking, prudence, justice etc. >> to say it is an inescapable primary goal “for all sentient creatures”>> 12: I have spoken to contingent, error-prone, finite, fallible, morally struggling, too often confused, stubborn and ill-willed creatures that nevertheless have capability to think soundly. >> is obviously false. Most people are not trying to employ “right reason;” they’re just using whatever they use of it in an effort to achieve whatever goal they have.>> 13: Is vs ought again, our foibles, flaws and struggles may reveal much on us and where we end up -- often second or third best or worse, they don't say one thing directly about where we should have gone instead. Save, learn from our example of marches of folly. >> It’s a means to an end, not the end itself.>> 14: principles of logic are primaries of that discipline. We are here addressing why bother with what is an admittedly difficult struggle, to think straight in a too often tangled up crooked world. Thus, duty to principles of logic and to surrounding issues of right reason. These point to prudence, including warrant. Epistemic sense. >>To use any tools to achieve any goal in any coherent manner is to employ free will to imagine the potential goals and then try to instantiate those goals. This defines oughts for us.>> 15: First duties sit in judgement on goals chosen. A Hitler or a Stalin or a Mao exemplify evil goals that should not have been chosen. >>An inescapable aspect of Free Will is preference. All decisions ultimately boil down to preference, either in the direct choice or in the way we make choices, even if it is flipping a coin.>> 16: As I noted, preference is ambiguous. In one sense, it is trivial as what is chosen is automatically what is "preferred." In the other relevant sense, our inclinations, we are often duty bound to do what we do not prefer to do. 17: Preference does not overthrow first duties or the many subsidiary duties. >> Preference is also an inescapable aspect of enjoyment;>> 18: My homeland has a saying: what sweet nanny goat mouth, run 'im belly. What is pleasant at the first may have damaging, destructive consequences so we must for example learn to have a taste for sound eating etc. The same extends across life. >> our scale of enjoyment is naturally, inescapable evaluated via preference, regardless of how one sorts and organizes the many different forms of enjoyment.>> 19: Preferences, like many other things, need to be disciplined and shaped by duties, prudence, health, the due balance of rights, freedoms, duties etc. >>Thus, Free Will is inescapably used to pursue the enjoyments we prefer,>> 20: Freedom is responsible, rational and so duty-bound. We can choose to do the evil, the wrong, the unsound, the unhealthy, the unwise, the foolish, the evil etc, we may prefer such but we OUGHT not to do such. Enjoyment is not sufficient justification, as the case of the kidnapped, sexually tortured murdered child I have pointed to teaches. >>however we define, organize or prioritize them. That is the fundamental nature of all sentient creatures which cannot be avoided.>> 21: You are using the ambiguities of the term and need to reckon with the balances noted. Yet again. >>There is only one category of goals that can be said to be fundamental to all goals and thus, in any significant meaning of the term, be the only “first duty.” The first and, ultimately, only duty a sentient being can be said to have, is to enjoyment.>> 22: Deeply fallacious for reasons as noted. Freedom is not licence or self indulgence. KFkairosfocus
March 17, 2021
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WJM, after I get a cat nap and deal with RW developments on the plate, I had to go play fireman above. KFkairosfocus
March 17, 2021
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Seversky, the lesson of history is, first, we refuse to learn from history, which explains why THERE IS NO TRULY STABLE POLITICAL SYSTEM. Autocracy starts the ball rolling, but there is an overload as discussed in Exodus 18 on a live case. This leads to oligarchy, thence the matter of lawfulness. Anarchy is simply a foil, it is intolerable. Power tends to corrupt, power without adequate accountability corrupts utterly, so the natural state of government is lawless oligarchy and nihilistic tyranny. So there is a struggle to stabilise oligarchy towards lawfulness, undermined by the addictive, corrupting nature of unaccountable power. No, it is not RELIGIOUS oligarchy, it is oligarchy and the addiction of power. This is intolerable and leads to bloody upheavals. In the end a monarchy with at least a body of widely accepted law -- Corpus Juris and the derived Code Napoleon on one side, British Common Law on the other, Sharia etc is in another civilisation -- seemed to be the best of bad options. Recall, ever since Athens committed politically driven geostrategic suicide, democracy was discredited with Ship of State the epitaph. Then came 1914 and the catastrophe that discredited monarchy. Now, backed by the rise of nukes to back chemicals, bioweapons and bombers as well as missiles. Don't overlook agit prop, colour revolution, 4th gen shadow wars and terrorism. So, up until the printing revolution, rise of mass literacy with linked ethics [re-]formation and global trade, there was no economic and cultural basis for any credible return to democratisation. Autocracy cannot work, anarchy is why there is a willingness to have civil society, even with oligarchy prone to lawless oligarchy. What sort of oligarchy was the real question. Lawful if possible, deal with lawlessness when it took over. This is not a perfect world. The cumulative effects of the printing revolution, the ferment around the reformation, etc led to the breakthrough to constitutional democracy buttressed by the cultural strength of gospel ethics and natural law thinking reformed Christendom. Yes, I know, in their maddened rage, the new atheists and assorted new radicals of cultural marxist bent want to smash Christendom and its legacy utterly. They either don't realise what this points to; o,r on the part of key power brokers, they intend to be the oligarchs in charge. our civilisation is on a voyage of folly, playing with fire, heedless to sobering lessons of history. For the US, 4th gen civil war has been in progress since about 2016-17, and now looks likely to spiral up the violence scale, pivoting on a Reichstag fire incident and attempts to ruthlessly exploit it riding on a McFaul colour-culture revolution push. We live in sadly interesting times. That's why I am calling us back to plumb line issues, the evident built in law that is coeval with our rational, responsible, significantly free humanity. KFkairosfocus
March 17, 2021
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PS: Note the chart on an alternative political spectrum, which leads the OP.kairosfocus
March 17, 2021
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Jerry, democracies have a great virtue, freedom. Freedom easily becomes licence, which is ruinous. That is why democracies need strong buttressing from the culture, which needs to be sound. Historically, Athenian democracy failed so badly that it discredited democracy for 2,000+ years; it was the results of the printing revolution, the ferment over the Reformation and the deepening effect of democratisation joined to gospel ethics driven moral-cultural progress that opened up new constitutional space between 1776 - 79, constitutional democracy of republican character, building on a line of thinking from Duplessis-Mornay et al in Vindiciae contra Tyrannos 1579, and the Dutch Declaration of 1581, with onward influences surrounding the Glorious Revolution, including esp. Locke and Rutherford, then Blackstone. The end of democracy implies, reversion to lawless oligarchy, now in obvious progress in the USA, with a Reichstag fire issue on the table. We refuse to learn from history, long run we are insane collectively on politics. KFkairosfocus
March 17, 2021
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NOTICE: FOLKS, THE OH WHAT ABOUT THIS AND THAT RIFF ON DISTRACTIVE SIDE ISSUES HAS GONE ON IN THE FACE OF MY STRONG STATEMENT THAT THIS SHOULD NOT BE USED TO PULL THE DISCUSSION OFF TRACK. IT IS A STRONG SIGN THAT OBJECTORS HAVE LOST THE EXCHANGE ON SUBSTANTIAL MERITS AND NOW WISH TO PULL THE TRIFECTA FALLACY: RED HERRING DISTRACTORS, LED AWAY TO STRAWMAN CARICATURES SOAKED IN AD HOMINEMS AND SET ALIGHT TO CREATE A TOXIC CONFUSING CLOUD OF NEEDLESS POLARISATION. PRECISELY, BECAUSE THE SUBSTANTIAL MATTER GOES WHERE THEY DO NOT WANT TO GO. THERE WAS ALREADY A UD THREAD THAT DEALT WITH THE FASHIONABLE SEXUALLY TINGED PERVERSITIES OF THE DAY [HERE IS A CORRECTIVE BOOK ON THE CORE ISSUES] AND THERE IS NO GOOD REASON TO ALLOW THREAD AFTER THREAD TO BE DRAGGED OFF INTO THE SEWER OF EVER MORE BIZARRE PSYCHO-SEXUAL PATHOLOGIES TRIGGERED BY THE CROOKED YARDSTICK EFFECT. THE CHOICE IS, RETURN TO RESPONSIBLE ON TOPIC DISCUSSION OR DISCIPLINARY ACTION, WHICH WILL OF COURSE BE DECRIED AS CENSORSHIP. GIVEN THAT DILEMMA I WILL PICK THE LATTER EVERY TIME. THERE IS ENOUGH WARNING ON THE TABLE AT THIS POINT, AND VL I AM LOOKING STRAIGHT AT YOU AND NAMING YOU IN THE FULL PARLIAMENTARY SENSE. YOU CHOSE TO TRY TO PULL THE THREAD OFF TRACK ABOVE. GEM OF TKI, THREAD OWNERkairosfocus
March 17, 2021
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CC, you have been warned, pointed to where you can get serious corrective information (were the village atheist distractor you raise a genuine concern), and more. You are insistent on multiplying toxic red herring distractors; which BTW is an obvious rhetorical sign of defeat on substantial merits. That's enough, given the general problem of Internet trollery. PLEASE LEAVE THIS THREAD, NOW. There will be no further warnings. KFkairosfocus
March 17, 2021
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VL, that you seemingly imagine the built-in complementarity of two sexes at the pivot of reproduction and lifelong pair bonding as context for raising a sound next generation is an" ivory tower" impractical distinction tells us all we need to know about crooked yardstick effects and how what is straight can never fit with crookedness. Which, shows that inducing a critical mass of people to swallow crooked yardsticks is the "highest" form of the radical agit prop strategist's manipulative art. For, it locks in the error and locks out sound correction. Indeed, as one particular crookedness will not match other crooked forms, it even locks in a particular indoctrination too. Hence, the cult deprogramming challenge of breaking the lock-in of the programming (and yes, I have about 20 years experience on that front too, part of what I am bringing to the table). Even, when what is straight comes from a plumb line, which is naturally straight and upright. (The plumb line metaphor of course comes from old building practice and relates to things that are naturally evident and/or even fully self-evident.) You have inadvertently shown why the restoration of Cicero's natural law thinking is vital to saving our civilisation. KFkairosfocus
March 17, 2021
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Acartia SA2:
The bottom line is, we should not erect barriers to people’s happiness unless they can be shown to cause harm. Love and commitment can never cause harm.
So then we should allow all types of marriage. Most likely have to change the meaning of the word "harm" as some people like bondage and pain.ET
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