Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Should we recognise that “laws of nature” extend to laws of our human nature? (Which, would then frame civil law.)

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Laws of Nature are a key part of the foundation of modern science. This reflects not only natural, law-like regularities such as the Law of Gravitation that promotes the Earth to the heavens (from being the sump of the cosmos) but also the perspective of many founders that they were thinking God’s creative, ordering providential and world-sustaining thoughts after him. The focal topic asks us whether our civil law is effectively an accident of power balances, or else, could it be accountable to a built in law that pivots on first duties coeval with our humanity.

The issue becomes pivotal, once we ponder the premise that the typical, “natural” tendency of government is to open or veiled lawless oligarchy:

So, let us hear Cicero in his On The Republic, Bk 3 [c. 55 – 54 BC]:

{22.} [33] L . . . True law is right reason in agreement with nature , it is of universal application, unchanging and everlasting; it summons to duty by its commands, and averts from wrongdoing by its prohibitions. And it does not lay its commands or prohibitions upon good men in vain, though neither have any effect on the wicked. It is a sin to try to alter this law, nor is it allowable to attempt to repeal any part of it, and it is impossible to abolish it entirely. We cannot be freed from its obligations by senate or people, and we need not look outside ourselves for an expounder or interpreter of it. And there will not be different laws at Rome and at Athens, or different laws now and in the future, but one eternal and unchangeable law will be valid for all nations and all times, and there will be one master and ruler, that is, God, over us all, for he is the author of this law, its promulgator, and its enforcing judge. Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature, and by reason of this very fact he will suffer the worst penalties, even if he escapes what is commonly considered punishment. . . . – Marcus Tullius Cicero, On the Republic, Bk 3

This, of course, is further reflected in his De Legibus, which lays out a framework:

With respect to the true principle of justice, many learned men have maintained that it springs from Law. I hardly know if their opinion be not correct, at least, according to their own definition; for “Law (say they) is the highest reason, implanted in nature, which prescribes those things which ought to be done, and forbids the contrary.” This, they think, is apparent from the converse of the proposition; because this same reason, when it [37]is confirmed and established in men’s minds, is the law of all their actions.

They therefore conceive that the voice of conscience is a law, that moral prudence is a law, whose operation is to urge us to good actions, and restrain us from evil ones.

We see in the Angelic Doctor, a broadening of the framework, elaborating four domains of law:

Thus, following Aquinas, we can see that arguably there is an intelligible core of law coeval with our responsible, rational, significantly free nature. This built-in law turns on inescapable, thus self-evident truths of justice and moral government, which rightly govern what courts may rule or parliaments legislate, per the premise of justice moderated by requisites of feasible order in a world that must reckon with the hardness of men’s hearts. Where, we are thus duty bound, morally governed creatures.

Hence, we come to the sense of duty attested to by sound conscience [“conscience is a law”], that breathes fire into what would otherwise be inert statements in dusty tomes. We may term these, by extension, the Ciceronian First Duties of Reason:

FIRST DUTIES OF RESPONSIBLE REASON

We can readily identify at least seven inescapable first duties of reason. “Inescapable,” as they are so antecedent to reasoning that even the objector implicitly appeals to them; i.e. they are self-evident. Namely, duties,

1 – to truth, 

2 – to right reason

3 – to prudence, 

4 – to sound conscience, 

5 – to neighbour; so also, 

6 – to fairness and

7 – justice 

x – etc.

[I add, Mar 12, for clarity:] {Of course, there is a linked but not equivalent pattern: bounded, error-prone rationality often tied to ill will and stubbornness or even closed mindedness; that’s why the study of right reason has a sub-study on fallacies and errors. That we seek to evade duties or may make errors does not overthrow the first duties of reason, which instead help us to detect and correct errors, as well as to expose our follies.}

Such built-in . . . thus, universal . . . law is not invented by parliaments, kings or courts, nor can these principles and duties be abolished by such; they are recognised, often implicitly as an indelible part of our evident nature. Hence, natural law,” coeval with our humanity, famously phrased in terms of “self-evident . . . rights . . . endowed by our Creator” in the US Declaration of Independence, 1776. (Cf. Cicero in De Legibus, c. 50 BC.) Indeed, it is on this framework that we can set out to soundly understand and duly balance rights, freedoms and duties; which is justice, the pivot of law.

The legitimate main task of government, then, is to uphold and defend the civil peace of justice through sound community order reflecting the built in, intelligible law of our nature. Where, as my right implies your duty a true right is a binding moral claim to be respected in life, liberty, honestly acquired property, innocent reputation etc. To so justly claim a right, one must therefore demonstrably be in the right.

Where, prudence can also be seen via Aristotle’s summary:  “. . . [who aptly] defined prudence as recta ratio agibilium, ‘right reason applied to practice.’ The emphasis on ‘right’ is important . . .  Prudence requires us to distinguish between what is right and what is wrong . . . If we mistake the evil for the good, we are not exercising prudence—in fact, we are showing our lack of it.”

Of course, we just saw a 400+ comment thread that saw objectors insistently, studiously evading the force of inescapability, where their objections consistently show that they cannot evade appealing to the same first duties that they would dismiss or suggest were so obscure and abstract that they cannot serve as a practical guide. The history of the modern civil rights movement once the print revolution, the civilisational ferment surrounding the reformation and the rise of newspapers, bills, coffee houses etc had unleashed democratising forces speaks to the contrary. The absurdity of appealing to what one seeks to overthrow simply underscores its self evidence. But free, morally governed creatures are just that, free. Even, free to cling to manifest absurdities.

This approach, of course, sharply contrasts with the idea that law is in effect whatever those who control the legal presses issue under that heading; based on power balances and so in effect might and/or manipulation. Aquinas’ corrective should suffice to show that not all that is issued under colour of law is lawful, or even simply prudent towards preserving order in a world of the hardness of men’s hearts.

Yes, obviously, if we are governed by built-in law, that raises the question that there is a cosmic law-giver, qualified to do so not by mere sheer power but also by being inherently good and utterly wise. Such a root of reality also answers the Hume Guillotine and the Euthyphro dilemma: an inherently good and utterly wise, necessary and maximally great being root of reality would bridge IS and OUGHT in the source of all reality and would issue good and wise, intelligible built-in law.

What of Mathematics? The answer is, of course, that a core of Math is inherent in the framework of any possible world. So, this would extend that core of Math tied to sets, structures and quantities expressed in N,Z,Q,R,C,R* etc to any actual world. That answers Wigner’s puzzlement on the universal power of Math and it points to, who has power to create an actual world in which we have fine tuning towards C-Chemistry, aqueous medium, cell based life? Likewise, it is suggestive on the source of the language and algorithms found in D/RNA etc.

Lest we forget, here is Crick, to his son, March 19, 1953:

So, we have come full circle, to law as expressing ordering principles of the dynamic-stochastic physical world and those of the world of intelligent, rational, morally governed creatures. Surprise — NOT — the design thesis is central to both. END

PS: As a reminder, the McFaul dirty form colour revolution framework and SOCOM insurgency escalator

U/D Feb 14: Outlines on first principles of right reason:

Here, we see that a distinct A — I usually use a bright red ball on a table:

and contrast a red near-ball in the sky, Betelgeuse as it went through a surprise darkening (something we observed separately and independently, it was not a figment of imagination):

. . . is distinct from the rest of the world. A is itself i/l/o its characteristics of being, and it is distinct from whatever else is not A, hence we see that in w there is no x that is A and ~A and any y that is in W will either be A or not A but not both or neither. These three are core to logic: P/LOI, LNC, LEM.

We may extend to governing principles that we have duties toward — never mind whoever may disregard such (and thereby cause chaos):

U/D March 13: The challenge of building a worldview i/l/o the infinite regress issue:

A summary of why we end up with foundations for our worldviews, whether or not we would phrase the matter that way}

Framing a ship:

. . . compare a wooden model aircraft:

. . . or a full scale, metal framework jet:

In short, there is always a foundational framework for any serious structure.

Comments
Dr. Egnor has a beautiful article that clears up, via Schrödinger’s Cat, much of the confusion surrounding the much repeated false claim that quantum mechanics contradicts the laws of logic,
Introducing Aquinas’ Five Ways – Michael Egnor – October 3, 2019 Excerpt: The cosmological arguments have two cornerstones: the law of non-contradiction, and the metaphysics of potency and act. Both principles are Aristotelian, developed in fullest form by St. Thomas Aquinas. Simple but Profound The law of non-contradiction is simple but profound. It is the principle that it is not possible for a thing to be and not be at the same time in the same respect. If my coffee cup is full, it cannot also be empty at the same time. If I am alive, I cannot be dead at the same time (for readers thinking “What about Schrödinger’s cat?”, I’ll address that later). Succinctly, A is not not-A, and not-A is not A.,,, Without the law of non-contradiction, nature is Alice-in-Wonderland,,,, Reality must make sense first, before I can draw conclusions from it.,,, ,,, If reality makes no sense (if A and not-A are compatible), we can apprehend nothing. Expressed another way, sense is the precondition of truth. We can’t know any truth unless the world makes sense. The second cornerstone of the cosmological arguments is Aristotle’s principle of potency and act. Aristotle observed that in contrast to non-being, there were two manifestations of being — potentiality and actuality. Potentiality (or potency) is an intermediate state between non-being and being. It is the capacity to receive form — the capacity to become a defined existing thing. It is not the thing itself, however, it is only capacity. Potency is not actual. Actuality (or act) is the state of actually being in a defined way — full reality.,,, Aquinas (following Aristotle) pointed out that the law of non-contradiction applies to the principle of potency and act in a fundamentally important way. A thing may not be in potency and in act in the same respect at the same time. Potency and act for the same thing are mutually exclusive at any moment in time. If something is possible, it is not yet actual, and if something is actual, it is no longer just possible. There is no middle state between potency and act and there is no state of simultaneous potency and act for the same thing.,,, And Now for Schrödinger’s Cat 3) There is a common atheist objection to the Aristotelian principle of non-contradiction, using a famous paradox in quantum indeterminacy. The argument is that the principle of non-contradiction is disproven by the paradox of Schrödinger’s cat, in which a cat in a box with poison that can be released by a radioactive emission can be simultaneously alive and dead — in a suspended state between life and death — until the box is opened and it is observed. This would seem to be a situation in which A is not-A simultaneously. Before observation, the cat is both dead and alive. This, however, is a misunderstanding of the metaphysics. In fact the paradox of Schrödinger’s cat is better understood in an Aristotelian framework. There is obviously no materialist mechanistic framework in which it is comprehensible. In the Aristotelian framework,, the cat is in potency for life and death, not in actuality for either. It is only on observation that the cat is alive or dead. That is, it is only with observation that potency is raised to act and the law of non-contradiction applies. Only the Aristotelian principle that potency is not actuality makes sense of the cat’s indeterminate state.,, Of all of the metaphysical perspectives on tap, the least acceptable is the materialist mechanical perspective — i.e. “nature is atoms in the void, and nothing more.” The most acceptable, in light of the indeterminacy inherent to the quantum state, is Aristotelian potency and act.,,, Quantum indeterminacy (exemplified by Schrödinger’s cat) is a striking example of Aristotelian potency, and collapse of the quantum waveform is an example of reduction of potency to act, and the law of non-contradiction is necessary to even talk about metaphysics or science meaningfully. It is materialist mechanical philosophy, not Aristotelian metaphysics, that is incompatible with quantum mechanics. https://evolutionnews.org/2019/10/introducing-aquinas-five-ways/
bornagain77
February 2, 2021
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We are swimming in deep waters with big sharks lurking
As an anti ID person is being consumed by the sharks that they mocked as non existent their last words will be
I gotcha you on that Kf.
jerry
February 2, 2021
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Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your perspective,) quantum physics has destroyed the basis for all of these arguments. Principle of identity, excluded middle and non-contradiction? Let me know how that is applied to the fact of quantum indeterminate states represented by Schrodinger's cat, or the fact that two irreconcilable states were simultaneously caused to exist in a recent experiment: https://www.technologyreview.com/2019/03/12/136684/a-quantum-experiment-suggests-theres-no-such-thing-as-objective-reality/
And today, Massimiliano Proietti at Heriot-Watt University in Edinburgh and a few colleagues say they have performed this experiment for the first time: they have created different realities and compared them. Their conclusion is that Wigner was correct—these realities can be made irreconcilable so that it is impossible to agree on objective facts about an experiment.
Let me know when you have something to say about this other than offering a promissory note that it will somehow be resolved in a way that will salvage your perspective. Physicists have been trying to cash in that note for 100 years. Laws of nature? No such thing. Patterns of experienced behavior, yes. Fine-tuned universe? Not really, not when you look at it through the lens of quantum physics and the implications thereof and what it means about life. Also, you can't cherry-pick mental items and call them "real," and offer no good reason to dismiss everything else in mind as "not real."William J Murray
February 2, 2021
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I think (again) the question whether or not mathematics is invented (by us) or discovered (not invented by us) has some real bearing here. Of course, this is something that has been discussed here many times before. Roger Penrose describes his metaphysical world view as a tripartite one consisting of the physical world, the mental world and a separate and distinct mathematical world. He goes on to explain that… ’there is the relationship between these three worlds which I regard, all three of them, as somewhat mysterious or very mysterious. I sometimes refer to this as “three worlds and three mysteries.” Mystery number one is how is it that the physical world does in fact accord with mathematics, and not just any mathematics but very sophisticated, subtle mathematics to such a fantastic degree of precision. That’s mystery number one.’ However, since Penrose is a non-theist (according to Wikipedia, which quotes a BBC interview) I don’t see that he has any other choice but to postulate the existence of a separate transcendent Platonic realm. But this is probably too high of a cost for other naturalists to pay (of course, it’s unthinkable for a died-in-the-wool materialist.) That’s no doubt why, as we have typically seen here before, a stubborn resistance to the idea that mathematics is discovered by several of our regular interlocutors. But if we reject the idea of a transcendent mathematical realm where does our mathematical knowledge and know-how come from? From our minds-- which is an epiphenomena of our brains… which is the product of a long mindless evolutionary process. If you begin with those assumptions that’s where the logic leads you, therefore, mathematics must be a human invention. The problem is that you first need to prove that your metaphysical presuppositions are true or that they are more probably true than not. On the other hand, here are several good reasons to believe that mathematical truth is discovered not invented. *1. Numbers have properties that do not appear to have been invented. For example, there some unsolved conjectures about prime numbers that are hard to explain if we are the inventors. Namely if we are the inventors why has no one been able to prove (or disprove) that the set of twin primes is infinite? Or why do the Goldbach conjecture and Riemann Hypothesis continue to be unsolved? Wouldn’t the putative inventors of mathematics be able to resolve these problems? *2. The applicability of mathematics to the real world. For example, sometime ago, in an earlier thread I pointed out that “One of the most significant discoveries in science was the discovery of the inverse square law (credited to Kepler for light) which is derived directly from the geometry of a sphere. The ISL applies to both electromagnetism and gravity, though the force constants for each vary.” https://www.thehighersidechatsplus.com/forums/media/inverse-square-law-and-wave-function.105/full?d=1503980290 Where would physics be without this discovery? And that’s only one example. *3. It appears that the human mind and brain are preadapted to do mathematics. What immediate survival advantage would doing higher mathematics and doing it accurately have for a highly evolved species of hunter-gatherer apes? *4. The universality of mathematics. SETI enthusiasts have suggested that we could use mathematics to communicate with ETI’s. For example, “In the 1985 science fiction novel Contact, Carl Sagan explored in some depth how a message might be constructed to allow communication with an alien civilization, using prime numbers as a starting point, followed by various universal principles and facts of mathematics and science.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communication_with_extraterrestrial_intelligence How could mathematics be universal if it was invented by us? *5. Historically mathematics set the stage for the scientific revolution. Kepler and Galileo and Newton were all mathematicians who believed that at its root the universe was mathematical. In other words, they began with the assumption that the universe could be described mathematically. *6. Mathematics is grounded in rational deductive logic which used in not only in the natural sciences but in criminal investigations and legal justice systems around the world. *7. Mathematics is objectively true. For example, it doesn’t matter what your opinion is or what you believe about the following numbers: 32319, 32321, 32323, only one or two of them could be a prime numbers or none of them could be. However, your subjective opinion is irrelevant and there nothing you can do or believe to change the facts. I think most theists agree that mathematics exists in the mind-- my mind, your mind-- some intelligent beings mind. However, if mind and consciousness are the result of a long unintended, accidental and unguided mindless natural evolutionary process then obviously, so the argument goes, then mathematics MUST be something that is invented by us. But is the premise, Mind and consciousness are the result of a long unintended, accidental and unguided mindless natural evolutionary process, self-evidently true? If it is, can you prove it to me? However, if it is just something that you believe subjectively how can it be true for anyone else? Does your believing something is true make it true? The reasons (1-7) that I have listed above are good reasons to believe there is something objectively and universally true about mathematics. Consider the example I gave in #7 about prime numbers. Does your opinion or belief whether or not 32319, 32321, 32323 are prime have any bearing on whether they are or are not? There is no better example of the intellectual bankruptcy of naturalistic/ materialistic thinking. Of course, this also has some implications the “objective” truthfulness of morality and universal human rights. Obviously if there no such thing as moral truth as the moral subjectivist and relativists want us believe then there are no morally binding obligations or basis for universal human rights. At the very least the objective truthfulness of math is analogous to what we mean when we say there are objective moral truths. Like math morality exists in the mind. But because something is exists in the mind does not make it epistemologically subjective or relative.john_a_designer
February 2, 2021
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F/N: Going further, I suggest we are looking at one of the root philosophical problems, the issue of the one and the many, unity with diversity. We see a ball, a hoop, a wheel, we point to roundness, circularity regardless of particular imperfections. We see a man, holding pictures of himself as a young child, conversing with his wife and children. The same arises and points to common humanity. What is it to be human, or to be a particular human at some stage of life or another, then at another stage years later? Just an accident of composition of particles, or is there something more, what? I clip: http://faculty.umb.edu/gary_zabel/Courses/Phil%20281b/Philosophy%20of%20Magic/Dante.%20etc/Philosophers/Idea/www.wsu.edu_8080/~dee/GLOSSARY/ONEMANY.HTM
All human cultures in some way have to deal with accounting for the myriad of objects and phenomena surrounding them. We live in a world of infinite objects that are constantly changing, yet even in this imposing world of objects and change, there seems to be an underlying unity and stability. For instance, every human being begins as an infant [--> a zygote] and then grows into an adult. Every adult is a different object than they were as an infant—in fact, they are unrecognizable as being the same object [--> save through continuation of growth, so change that transforms the child into the adult man or woman, holding a common identity and sense of unified self]. Yet we recognize that the are the same object , that something has remained the same even though the infant has changed into an object that is nowhere close to its original state. Likewise a corpse is nothing like the original living human being, but we still recognize that something has remained constant. [--> remains . . . ] We can see the same stability and constancy even across objects. While the world is full of trees, there is still some constancy and stability to "treeness" which never seems to change. This observation of the world of phenomena leads many cultures to believe that the infinity of things and their changes can ultimately be related back to a single object, material, or idea. The problem of finding the one thing that lies behind all things in the universe is called the problem of the one and the many. Basically stated, the problem of the one and the many begins from the assumption [--> intuition] that the universe is one thing [--> one common cosmos, not an ill-ordered unpredictable chaos]. Because it is one thing, there must be one, unifying aspect behind everything. This aspect could be material, such as water, or air, or atoms. It could be an idea, such as number, or "mind." [--> note, scare quotes] It could be divine, such as the Christian concept of God or the Chinese concept of Shang-ti, the "Lord on High." [--> both of which fit in with the category, mind] The problem, of course, is figuring out what that one, unifying idea is. Philosophy in the Western world begins with this question [IIRC, Thales of Miletus, sitting at the waterfront and pondering unity and diversity]; the earliest Greek philosophers mainly concerned themselves with this question. As a result, the problem of the one and the many still dominates Western concepts of the universe, including modern physics, which has set for itself the goal of finding the theory that will "unify" (unify means "make into one thing") the laws of physics [--> tie in to the string theory debates] . . .
We are swimming in deep waters with big sharks lurking. KFkairosfocus
February 2, 2021
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DATCG, yes, there is a fundamental contradiction in the views of those advocating evolutionary materialistic scientism. That Mr Rosenberg is reduced to arguing that one's consciousness of being a distinct individual thinking rationally, etc is delusional is a fatal illustration of the problem. This clearly extends to onward issues such as having rights, coming in one of two sexes, being able to think with rational freedom (necessary for a credible mind) and more. Wikipedia, as ever, is a useful sign of what is wrong:
Human nature is a concept that denotes the fundamental dispositions and characteristics—including ways of thinking, feeling, and acting—that humans are said to have naturally.[1][2][3][4] The term is often used to denote the essence of humankind, or what it 'means' to be human. This usage has proven to be controversial in that there is dispute as to whether or not such an essence actually exists. Arguments about human nature have been a central focus of philosophy for centuries and the concept continues to provoke lively philosophical debate.[5][6][7] While both concepts are distinct from one another, discussions regarding human nature are typically related to those regarding the comparative importance of genes and environment in human development (i.e., 'nature versus nurture'). Accordingly, the concept also continues to play a role in fields of science, such as neuroscience, psychology, and social science (such as sociology), in which various theorists claim to have yielded insight into human nature.[8][9][10][11] Human nature is traditionally contrasted with human attributes that vary among societies, such as those associated with specific cultures. The concept of nature as a standard by which to make judgments is traditionally said to have begun in Greek philosophy, at least in regard to its heavy influence on Western and Middle Eastern languages and perspectives.[12] By late antiquity and medieval times, the particular approach that came to be dominant was that of Aristotle's teleology, whereby human nature was believed to exist somehow independently of individuals, causing humans to simply become what they become. This, in turn, has been understood as also demonstrating a special connection between human nature and divinity, whereby human nature is understood in terms of final and formal causes. More specifically, this perspective believes that nature itself (or a nature-creating divinity) has intentions and goals, including the goal for humanity to live naturally. Such understandings of human nature see this nature as an "idea", or "form" of a human.[13] However, the existence of this invariable and metaphysical human nature is subject of much historical debate, continuing into modern times. Against Aristotle's notion of a fixed human nature, the relative malleability of man has been argued especially strongly in recent centuries—firstly by early modernists such as Thomas Hobbes and Jean-Jacques Rousseau. In his Emile, or On Education, Rousseau wrote: "We do not know what our nature permits us to be."[14] Since the early 19th century, such thinkers as Hegel, Marx, Kierkegaard, Nietzsche, and Sartre, as well as structuralists and postmodernists more generally, have also sometimes argued against a fixed or innate human nature. Charles Darwin's theory of evolution has particularly changed the shape of the discussion, supporting the proposition that mankind's ancestors were not like mankind today. Still, more recent scientific perspectives—such as behaviorism, determinism, and the chemical model within modern psychiatry and psychology—claim to be neutral regarding human nature. As in much of modern science, such disciplines seek to explain with little or no recourse to metaphysical causation.[15] They can be offered to explain the origins of human nature and its underlying mechanisms, or to demonstrate capacities for change and diversity which would arguably violate the concept of a fixed human nature.
Notice, how this subtly side-steps the issue of the principle of identity. That, a thing A is itself i/l/o its particular characteristics that mark it apart from any other thing. This of course comes with two close corollaries, non-contradiction and excluded middle. In short, the Greek recognition that rationality pivots on distinct identity is a driver of the concept that a distinct thing has a distinct nature. A classic illustration of its pivotal importance is found in a classic source, an epistle of the Apostle Paul, where intelligibility came up. He gave a didactic example that, most likely, was a commonplace of their equivalent of Logic 101:
1 Cor 14:7 If even lifeless instruments, such as the flute or the harp, do not give distinct notes, how will anyone know what is played? 8 And if the bugle gives an indistinct sound, who will get ready for battle? 9 So with yourselves, if with your tongue you utter speech that is not intelligible, how will anyone know what is said? For you will be speaking into the air. 10 There are doubtless many different languages in the world, and none is without meaning, 11 but if I do not know the meaning of the language, I will be a foreigner to the speaker and the speaker a foreigner to me.
We cannot even communicate intelligible content without using distinct identity and diversity so that we may encode information in meaningful patterns. This speaks to thought, speech, music, building up knowledge etc. In short, we see here a case of an inescapable prior of intelligent thought, speech, decision, action. Thus, an inescapable, self-evident truth. One, we cannot deny without instant, patent absurdity. Where, of course, to deny one's individual, self aware, rational individuality is at once to suggest: who is it that denies distinct identity? That is a fairly big clue. As to the Darwinist touch-stone used to deny that we can have a common nature that is not infinitely plastic, we need not more than point out that change and transformation do not imply absence of a given state. There is such a thing as to be human, whatever our alleged ancestors once were. Whatever, our racial differences, coming in two complementary sexes, cultural diversity, different averages on Western-biased IQ tests, etc may suggest to those inclined to the notion that the despised other is somehow distinctly inferior in ways that rob of recognition of rights. We are of one blood, one family in the end. Further to this, our sense of being under moral government must be recognised and respected, complete with what that points to as being at the root of reality. Further to this, we should distinguish active causation by physical mechanism, from that which constrains being through the logic of being across possible worlds [see, Mathematics], and yet again from the self-motion of an agent making and acting on a decision. Where, if one dismisses the latter as Rosenberg did, the instant absurdity should be clear. It seems, we need to think through some fairly fundamental matters. With lawful civilisation in the stakes. KF PS: I see my main page now sees me as logged in. Let us hope whatever bugs are at root of the headache have been found and duly squashed. BTW, Admiral Grace Hopper's literal bug was preserved in her log of tests on an early computer.kairosfocus
February 2, 2021
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KF @9 "Therefore management of the power of rational, morally guided choice becomes a central issue for human beings." How do Random Mutations manage anything, let alone a "rational, morally guided choice"? --- KF, fyi. Comments are open on other post except the one I noted earlier to you. Might check if any plugins need upgrading w/this version of Wordpress? Specific to Comments/posting or security. Good for now. ThanksDATCG
February 1, 2021
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Jerry, the power of rational, intelligent, self-moved freedom to choose, think, decide and act is a defining characteristic of our nature as human beings. Such rational freedom opens up the gap between is and ought, wise and naive or imprudent or foolish or outright evil, etc. Therefore management of the power of rational, morally guided choice becomes a central issue for human beings. The first duties of reason that are inter alia built up from Cicero's observations and which will commend themselves on a few moment's reflection, serve to show how that power is rightly guided: towards truth, right reason, prudence, sound conscience, neighbour, fairness and justice, etc. Each of these obviously can be elaborated [especially right reason, prudence, neighbour] but the picture is clear enough. Those who deny that we have significant rational freedom-- never mind the realities of struggle with ignorance, error, bounded rationality, moral struggle, ill will, selfishness, lust, greed, stubbornness etc -- and linked responsibilities rapidly end up in self-referential absurdity. KF PS: A capital example of going over the cliff into absurdity:
Alex Rosenberg as he begins Ch 9 of his The Atheist’s Guide to Reality: >> FOR SOLID EVOLUTIONARY REASONS, WE’VE BEEN tricked into looking at life from the inside. [--> So, just how did self-aware, intentional consciousness arise on such materialism? Something from nothing through poof magic words like "emergence" won't do.] Without scientism, we look at life from the inside, from the first-person POV (OMG, you don’t know what a POV is?—a “point of view”). The first person is the subject, the audience, the viewer of subjective experience, the self in the mind. Scientism shows that the first-person POV is an illusion. [–> grand delusion is let loose in utter self referential incoherence] Even after scientism convinces us, we’ll continue to stick with the first person. But at least we’ll know that it’s another illusion of introspection and we’ll stop taking it seriously. We’ll give up all the answers to the persistent questions about free will, the self, the soul, and the meaning of life that the illusion generates [–> bye bye to responsible, rational freedom on these presuppositions]. The physical facts fix all the facts. [--> asserts materialism, leading to . . . ] The mind is the brain. It has to be physical and it can’t be anything else, since thinking, feeling, and perceiving are physical process—in particular, input/output processes—going on in the brain. We [–> at this point, what "we," apart from "we delusions"?] can be sure of a great deal about how the brain works because the physical facts fix all the facts about the brain. The fact that the mind is the brain guarantees that there is no free will. It rules out any purposes or designs organizing our actions or our lives [–> thus rational thought and responsible freedom]. It excludes the very possibility of enduring persons, selves, or souls that exist after death or for that matter while we live.>>
PS: Are there such characteristics as help us understand that X is human, of adult maturity and in his or her right mind? This is an application of the principle of identity.kairosfocus
February 1, 2021
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I typed this comment by choice, based on intelligent choice. It exhibits FSCO/I, in the form of coded glyph strings expressing a thought in English, ASCII text, a pattern of causation that is reliable. Even the objectors to design theory post such texts and expect us to follow them. The forced attempt to suggest that intelligent agency reduces to blindly mechanical, non-rational forces is self-referential and immediately self defeating.
I’m not sure you should use the term “human nature” because you are not describing what many think of when describing human nature. You are describing conscious acts that you do to promote a well being (dopamine, oxytocin, serotonin. endorphins and lowering of cortisol) in yourself that will result from these conscious decisions. In past times, and in a lot of present times, concern for others besides those very close to ourselves were not necessarily going to promote this well being. That is why killing and torturing were part of human nature since the beginning of times. Even within families killing was common. Go no further than the sons of Jacob or the sons of David. It was common in human history for someone to kill their son, brother and even their father for power. I would not equate conscious decisions to reach a goal as an example of human nature. It’s definitely a human activity. If anything you are describing the overcoming of human nature.jerry
February 1, 2021
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Seversky, the thread is open to me for now but the main page says I need to log in. I don't know if a version rollback is possible. KFkairosfocus
February 1, 2021
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Jerry, the laws of dynamic-stochastic, physical nature have to do with the four forces and how they act across space and time (force across space confers energy and force across time, change in momentum). The laws of responsibly, rationally free morally governed nature have to do with the powers and duties of right decision, thought and action, addressing the is-ought gap. That speaks to the first duties of reason and how we should vs how we do act. It is that responsible freedom that enables us to love, be truthful, be just, be virtuous, be inventive, be designers. Which comes full circle to what signs of design point to, design as act. In turn this points to the best explanation of design, responsible, rational, free [= self-moved, reflexively acting], intelligent agents. I typed this comment by choice, based on intelligent choice. It exhibits FSCO/I, in the form of coded glyph strings expressing a thought in English, ASCII text, a pattern of causation that is reliable. Even the objectors to design theory post such texts and expect us to follow them. The forced attempt to suggest that intelligent agency reduces to blindly mechanical, non-rational forces is self-referential and immediately self defeating. This stuff is central. KFkairosfocus
February 1, 2021
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Comment box is back for me, too.Seversky
February 1, 2021
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The laws of nature are forces. We know of four. Is human nature the result of something similar and rooted in the physical force that produces dopamine, oxytocin, serotonin, endorphins and cortisol? The primary physical force operating in human nature is the electromagnetic force. Amazing fine tuning. Does our conscious/will have the ability to counteract these physical force fields? Form new force fields? Apparently so. Is law based in maximizing dopamine, oxytocin, serotonin and endorphins and limiting cortisol in society?jerry
February 1, 2021
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Re-opened . . . but not the main pagekairosfocus
February 1, 2021
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BTW, main page is tossing me a log in and is stuck in the past. WP has some debugging to do. KFkairosfocus
February 1, 2021
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Should we recognise that “laws of nature” extend to laws of our human nature? (Which, would then frame civil law.)kairosfocus
February 1, 2021
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