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L&FP, 63: Do design thinkers, theists and the like “always” make bad arguments because they are “all” ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked?

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Dawkins’ barbed blanket dismissiveness comes up far too often in discussions of the design inference and related themes. Rarely, explicitly, most often by implication of a far too commonly seen no concessions, selectively hyperskeptical policy that objectors to design too often manifest. It is time to set this straight.

First, we need to highlight fallacious, crooked yardstick thinking (as exposed by naturally straight and upright plumb-lines). And yes, that classical era work, the Bible, is telling:

Notice, a pivotal point here, is self-evident truths. Things, similar to 2 + 3 = 5:

Notoriously, Winston Smith in 1984 is put on the rack to break his mind to conform to The Party’s double-think. He is expected to think 2 + 2 = whatever The Party needs at the moment, suppressing the last twisted answer, believing that was always the case, while simultaneously he must know that manifestly 2 + 2 = 4 on pain of instant absurdity. This is of course a toy example but it exposes the way crooked yardstick thinking leads to chaos:

Of Lemmings, marches of folly and cliffs of self-falsifying absurdity . . .

(Yes, real lemmings do not act like that. But, humans . . . that’s a whole other story.)

So, now, let us turn to a recent barbed remark by one of our frequent objectors and my reply, laying out a frame of thought and inviting correction — dodged, of course:

KF, 120 in the Foundations thread: [[It is now clear that SG is unwilling to substantially back up the one liner insinuation he made at 84 above, try making a good argument. Accordingly, let me respond in outline, for record, to the general case, that people like us are ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked and the associated zero concessions, selectively hyperskeptical dismissiveness policy. Here, I will show the rational responsibility of the design inference and related ideas, views and approaches, for record and reference:

I will use steps of thought:

1: Reason, in general: Notice, supporters and fellow travellers of evolutionary materialistic scientism undermine the responsible, rational freedom required for reason to be credible. They tend to discount and discredit objectors, but in fact their arguments and assertions are self-referentially incoherent, especially reduction of mind to computationalism on a wetware substrate. Reppert is right to point out, following Haldane and others:

. . . let us suppose that brain state A [–> notice, state of a wetware, electrochemically operated computational substrate], which is token identical to the thought that all men are mortal, and brain state B, which is token identical to the thought that Socrates is a man, together cause the belief [–> concious, perceptual state or disposition] that Socrates is mortal. It isn’t enough for rational inference that these events be those beliefs, it is also necessary that the causal transaction be in virtue of the content of those thoughts . . . [But] if naturalism is true, then the propositional content is irrelevant to the causal transaction that produces the conclusion, and [so] we do not have a case of rational inference. In rational inference, as Lewis puts it, one thought causes another thought not by being, but by being seen to be, the ground for it. But causal transactions in the brain occur in virtue of the brain’s being in a particular type of state that is relevant to physical causal transactions.

2: This extends to Marx’s class/cultural conditioning, to Freud’s potty training etc, to Skinner’s operant conditioning , to claims my genes made me do it, and many more. So, irrationality and undermining of the credibility of reason are a general issue for such supporters and fellow travellers, it is unsurprising to see projection to the despised other (a notorious defence mechanism) and linked failure to engage self referentiality.

3: First principles of right reason: Classically, the core of reason starts with distinct identity, excluded middle, non contradiction. Something x is what it is i/l/o its core characteristics, nothing can be both x and not x in the same sense and circumstances, any y in W = {x| ~x} will be x, ~x, not both or neither. And more. Claimed quantum counter examples etc actually are rooted in reasoning that relies on such. And yes, there have been enough objections that this has come up and is in UD’s Weak Argument Correctives. We leave it to objectors like SG to tell us whether they acknowledge such first principles of right reason: _______ and explain why ________ .

4: Self evidence: There are arguments that, once we have enough experience and maturity to understand [a sometimes big if], will be seen as true, as necessarily true and as true on pain of immediate absurdities on attempted denial. That error exists is a good case in point, and if one is able to see that the attempt to deny objectivity of knowledge for a given reasonably distinct field of thought such as morals or history or reality [metaphysics], or the physical world, or external reality, or in general, etc, one is claiming to objectively know something about that field and so refutes oneself.

5: self referential incoherence and question begging: We just saw an example of how arguments and arguers can include themselves in the zone of reference of an argument in ways that undermine it, often by implying a contradiction. Such arguments defeat themselves. Question begging is different, it assumes, suggests or imposes what should be shown and for which there are responsible alternatives. Arguments can be question begging, and then may turn out to be self refuting.

6: Deduction, induction, abduction (inference to the best [current] explanation [IBE]) and weak-form knowledge: Deduction uses logical validity to chain from givens to conclusions, where if givens are so and the chain valid, conclusions must also be true. Absent errors of reasoning, the debate rapidly becomes one over why the givens. Induction, modern sense, is about degree of support for conclusions i/l/o evidence of various kinds as opposed to demonstration, statistics, history, science, etc are common contexts. Abduction, especially IBE, compares live option alternatives and what they imply, on factual adequacy, coherence and balance of explanatory power, to choose the best explanation so far. In this context weak sense common knowledge is warranted, credibly true (so, reliable) belief. Which, is open to correction or revision and extension.

7: Worldviews context: Why accept A? B. But why B? C, etc. We see that we face infinite regress, or circularity or finitely remote first plausibles . . . which, frame our faith points . . . as we set out to understand our world. Infinite regress is impossible to traverse in reasoning or in cause effect steps, so we set it aside, we are forced to have finitely remote start points to reasoning and believing, warranting and knowing — first plausibles that define our views of the world. Thus, we all live by faith, the question is which, why; so, whether it is rational/reasonable and responsible. Where, too, all serious worldview options bristle with difficulties, hence the point that philosophy is the discipline that studies hard, basic questions. Question begging circles are a challenge, answered through comparative difficulties across factual adequacy, coherence and balance of explanatory power: elegantly simple, neither ad hoc nor simplistic.

[Let’s add an illustration:]

A summary of why we end up with foundations for our worldviews, whether or not we would phrase the matter that way}

[or in Aristotle’s words:]

8: Failure of evolutionary materialistic scientism and fellow traveller views: It will be evident already, that, while institutionally and culturally dominant, evolutionary materialistic scientism and fellow travellers are profoundly and irretrievably incoherent. Yes, a view backed by institutions, power brokers in the academy, the education system and the media can be irretrievably, fatally cracked from its roots.

9: Logic of being (and of structure and quantity), also possible worlds: Ontology and her grand child, Mathematics, grow out of core philosophy, particularly distinct identity and consideration of possible worlds. A possible world, w, is a sufficiently complete description of how our world or another conceivable or even actual world is or may be; i.e. a cluster of core, world describing propositions. In that context, a candidate being or entity or even state of affairs, c, can be impossible of being [e.g. a Euclidean plane square circle] or possible. Possible beings may be contingent [actual in at least one possible world but not all] or necessary [present in every possible world]. We and fires are contingent, dependent for existence on many independent, prior factors; what begins or may cease of existence is contingent. Necessary beings are best seen as part of the fabric or framework for this or any possible world. We can show that distinct identity implies two-ness, thence 0, 1, 2. Ponder, W = {A|~A}, the partition is empty, 0, A is a unit, ~A is a complex unit, so we see 2. So, onward via von Neumann’s construction, the counting numbers N. Thence, Z, Q, R, C, R* etc in any w. This is what gives core Mathematics its universal power.

10: The basic credibility of the design inference: of course, we routinely recognise that many things show reliable signs of intelligently directed configuration as key cause, i.e. design. For example, objectors to the design inference often issue copious, complex text in English, beyond 500 to 1,000 bits of complexity. In the 70’s Orgel and Wicken identified a distinct and quantifiable phenomenon, functionally specific, complex organisation and/or associated information, which I often abbreviate FSCO/I. Organisation is there as things like a fishing reel [my favourite, e.g. the ABU 6500 CT] or a watch [Paley, do not overlook his self replicating watch thought exercise in Ch 2]

or an oil refinery or a computer program [including machine code]

Petroleum refinery block diagram illustrating FSCO/I in a process-flow system

or the cell’s metabolic process-flow network [including protein synthesis]

[with:]

Step by step protein synthesis in action, in the ribosome, based on the sequence of codes in the mRNA control tape (Courtesy, Wikipedia and LadyofHats)

[and:]

all can be described in a suitably compact string of Y/N questions, structured through description languages such as AutoCAD. The inference posits that, with trillions of cases under our belt, reliably, FSCO/I or its generalisation, CSI, will be signs of design as key cause. The controversies, as may be readily seen, are not for want of evidence or inability to define or quantify, but because this challenges the dominant evolutionary materialism and fellow travellers. Which, of course, long since failed through irretrievable self referential incoherence.
_____________________

So, challenge: let SG and/or others show where the above fails to be rational and responsible, if they can__________________ Prediction, aside from mere disagreement and/or dismissiveness, assertions, or the trifecta fallacy of red herrings, led away to strawmen soaked in ad hominems and set alight to cloud, confuse, poison and polarise the atmosphere, they will not be able to sustain a case for general failure to be rational and responsible.]]

The good argument challenge is duly open for response. END

U/D, Nov 4: As it seems certain objectors want to attack the descriptive metaphor, islands of function amidst seas of non function, let me put up here a couple of infographics I used some years ago to discuss this concept. But first, as the primary contexts have to do with protein synthesis and OoL, let me first put up Vuk Nicolic’s video illustrating just what is required for protein synthesis:

. . . and Dr James Tour’s summary presentation on OoL synthesis challenges:

Now, this is my framework for discussing islands of function:

. . . and, on associated active information:

Thus, we can discuss the Orgel-Wicken functionally specific, complex organisation and associated information concept, FSCO/I, similarly:

We see here the needle in a haystack, blind search challenge and how it is dominated by not the hill climbing on fitness functions that is commonly discussed but by the issue of arriving at shorelines of first function. Obviously and primarily, for origin of cell based life [cf. Tour] but also to move from that first unicellular body plan to others. Where, we can observe too that even within an island of function, incremental changes will be challenged by intervening valleys, tending to trap on a given peak or plateau.

But, what of the thesis, that there is in effect a readily accessible first functionality, incrementally connected to all major body plans, allowing unlimited, branching tree of life body plan level macro evolution?

The Smithsonian’s tree of life model, note the root in OOL

Obviously, this architecture implies such continuity. The first problem, obviously is the root and the plethora of speculations and debatable or even dubious syntheses that have been made into icons of the grand evolutionary narrative and taught as effective fact, already tell us something is wrong. A second clue is how the diagram itself implies that transitional forms should utterly dominate the space, with terminal tips being far less common. On basic statistics, we should then expect an abundance of these transitions or “links.” The phrase, missing link, tells the tale instead.

For, the trade secret of paleontology, is the utter rarity of such forms, to the point where punctuated equilibria was a major school intended to explain that general absence. Where, Darwin, notoriously, noted the gaps but expected and predicted that on wider investigations they would go away. But now, after 150 years of searching, billions of fossils seen in situ, millions in museum back office drawers [only a relative few can be displayed] and over a quarter of a million fossil species, the pattern of gaps is very much still here, hot denials and dismissals notwithstanding. That is especially true of the Cambrian fossil life form revolution, where the major current body plans for animals pop up with nary an intermediate. So much so, that there have been significant efforts to make it disappear, obfuscating its significance.

We also have molecular islands of function, starting with protein fold domains. Thousands, scattered across the AA sequence space, no easy path connecting them. Even just homochirality soon accumulates into a serious search space challenge as molecules are complex and mirror image handedness is not energetically enforced, why racemic forms, 50-50 mixes of left and right handed molecules are what we tend to get in lab syntheses. This then gets more complicated where there are multiple isomers as Tour discusses.

In short, a real issue not a readily dismissible notion without significant empirical support.

And so forth.

U/D2 Nov 4: I just found where I had an image from p. 11 NFL, so observe:

ID researcher William A Dembski, NFL, p.11 on possibilities, target zones and events

Where, we can further illustrate the beach of function issue:

And, some remarks:

U/D 3 Nov 7: The all-revealing Eugenics Conference Logo from 1912 and 1921 showing how it was seen as a capstone of ever so many sciences and respected domains of knowledge, especially statistics, genetics, biology and medicine, even drawing on religion, with, politics, law, education, psychology, mental testing and sociology . . . menacingly . . . also being in the roots:

“Eugenics is the self-direction of human evolution”: Logo from the Second International Eugenics Conference, 1921, depicting Eugenics as a tree which unites a variety of different fields.

U/D 4, Nov 10: A reminder on cosmological fine tuning, from Luke Barnes:

Barnes: “What if we tweaked just two of the fundamental constants? This figure shows what the universe would look like if the strength of the strong nuclear force (which holds atoms together) and the value of the fine-structure constant (which represents the strength of the electromagnetic force between elementary particles) were higher or lower than they are in this universe. The small, white sliver represents where life can use all the complexity of chemistry and the energy of stars. Within that region, the small “x” marks the spot where those constants are set in our own universe.” (HT: New Atlantis)

U/D 5, Nov 12: As there is dismissiveness of the textual, coded information stored in DNA, it is necessary to show here a page clip from Lehninger, as a case in point of what should not even be a debated point:

For record.

U/D 6, Nov 14: The per aspect design inference explanatory filter shows how right in the core design inference, alternative candidate causes and their observational characteristics are highlighted:

Explanatory Filter

Again, for record.

Comments
Kairosfocus: Of course, having built on his work as a major populariser, there is now a push to distance from the weak intellectual foundations of those roots, hence revisionism on Weasel etc. There is no revisionism! Read the original material!! The only revisionism going on is by you and other ID proponents who can't even understand the basic point of the programme! Crazy.JVL
November 7, 2022
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Something else from the source material. It comes from The Blind Watchmaker -- immediately after description of the weasel simulation in Chapter 3:
There is a big difference, then, between cumulative selection (in which each improvement, however slight, is used as a basis for future building), and single-step selection (in which each new 'try' is a fresh one). If evolutionary progress had to rely on single-step selection, it would never have got anywhere. If, however, there was any way in which the necessary conditions for cumulative selection could have been set up by the blind forces of nature, strange and wonderful might have been the consequences. As a matter of fact that is exactly what happened on this planet, and we ourselves are among the most recent, if not the most wonderful, of those consequences.
If the weasel simulation was not intended to give support to the idea that evolution could do cumulative selection, then the bare assertion is all we have here.hnorman42
November 7, 2022
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OTOOL, KF!Alan Fox
November 7, 2022
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Indeed, it was only when The Blind Watchmaker caught the eye of US Young Earth Creationists that Weasel became controversial. Dawkins himself was puzzled by the late and vehement reaction. I recall him saying if he'd known Weasel was going to become notorious, he would have saved his original program file.Alan Fox
November 7, 2022
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Q, UB, Jerry [attn VL], it is clear that the model of ever growing diversification and linked origin of large quantities of implicit information [aka functional organisation] and explicit information [in D/RNA] is not being responsibly faced by those proposing ool and body plan origin evolution by blind chance and necessity, Dawkins' blind watchmaker. Of course, having built on his work as a major populariser, there is now a push to distance from the weak intellectual foundations of those roots, hence revisionism on Weasel etc. Meanwhile, with James Tour explicitly on the table, there is no serious engagement of what he warns about synthesis and coordination of requisite chemicals for ool. These molecules typically being energetically adverse, any model relying on their spontaneous synthesis and gradual organisation as a metabolic automaton with smart gated encapsulation and associated von Neumann kinematic self replicator is in trouble. We see that in speculations of a never observed simpler architecture of life and synthesis exercises that are questionable. The evidence supports intelligently directed configuration of cell based life, the root of the tree of life icon. The onward need for massive fresh bioinformation and organisation to get to body plans is similarly ducked under speculations about simple diversification. The rather obvious point that there are astronomically many more non functional clusterings of parts than functional ones is disparaged. It is hard to escape the conclusion that we are seeing an ideological framework that though it lacks clean empirical warrant, is being stoutly defended because of its centrality to a cultural order that privileges big S Science, meaning evolutionary materialistic scientism. KF PS, The late Philip Johnson had his finger on something in his reply to Lewontin:
For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter. [Emphasis original -- the context is Lewontin in NYRB] We might more accurately term them "materialists employing science." And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence.
[--> notice, the power of an undisclosed, question-begging, controlling assumption . . . often put up as if it were a mere reasonable methodological constraint; emphasis added. Let us note how Rational Wiki, so-called, presents it:
"Methodological naturalism is the label for the required assumption of philosophical naturalism when working with the scientific method. Methodological naturalists limit their scientific research to the study of natural causes, because any attempts to define causal relationships with the supernatural are never fruitful, and result in the creation of scientific "dead ends" and God of the gaps-type hypotheses." [NB: I am aware that Rational Wiki has backed away, un-announced, from the cat-out-of-the-bag direct phrasing that was in place a few years ago. That historic phrasing is still valid as a summary of what is going on.]
Of course, this ideological imposition on science that subverts it from freely seeking the empirically, observationally anchored truth about our world pivots on the deception of side-stepping the obvious fact since Plato in The Laws Bk X, that there is a second, readily empirically testable and observable alternative to "natural vs [the suspect] supernatural." Namely, blind chance and/or mechanical necessity [= the natural] vs the ART-ificial, the latter acting by evident intelligently directed configuration. [Cf Plantinga's reply here and here.] And as for the god of the gaps canard, the issue is, inference to best explanation across competing live option candidates. If chance and necessity is a candidate, so is intelligence acting by art through design. And it is not an appeal to ever- diminishing- ignorance to point out that design, rooted in intelligent action, routinely configures systems exhibiting functionally specific, often fine tuned complex organisation and associated information. Nor, that it is the only observed cause of such, nor that the search challenge of our observed cosmos makes it maximally implausible that blind chance and/or mechanical necessity can account for such.]
That theory will necessarily be at least roughly like neo-Darwinism, in that it will have to involve some combination of random changes and law-like processes capable of producing complicated organisms that (in Dawkins’ words) "give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose." . . . . The debate about creation and evolution is not deadlocked . . . Biblical literalism is not the issue. The issue is whether materialism and rationality are the same thing. Darwinism is based on an a priori commitment to materialism, not on a philosophically neutral assessment of the evidence. Separate the philosophy [ --> ideology] from the science, and the proud tower collapses. [Emphasis added.] [The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism, First Things, 77 (Nov. 1997), pp. 22 – 25.]
A paradigm of evolutionary materialistic scientism and fellow travellers is fatally cracked but is culturally central so it will be defended to the bitter end. PPS, meanwhile, the zero concessions, objectors to Darwin and his modern champions policy is going a bit threadbare. Notice, not one objector could seriously and substantially answer Nikolic or Tour. Similarly, there is no readily cited empirical support to the 2 + 2 = whatever the party needs just now [and it was always the case] storyline on OOL and OO body plans. And, the denial of complexity of organisation to get function and its implication of just that, complex organisation with tight requisites on the right bits in the right place properly coupled is in itself revealing of just how many ad hoc patches are being put up to try to save a broken backed ship with a shattered keel.kairosfocus
November 7, 2022
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Kairosfocus: We do not recall Dawkins standing up and saying to his enthusiasts, no, no, no you got it wrong, I am using an example of a pre-loaded target to simply show that strings will converge to it if proximity is rewarded Then you were clearly not paying attention. He spelled out exactly what he was trying to show in one of his books and clearly stated he was NOT modelling evolution as a whole. He was just trying to demonstrate the power of cumulative selection. He's made that point very, very clear. Why do you keep misinterpreting the whole thing? Stop flogging a dead horse. What we saw was championing of evolutionism and Weasel was used as an icon in the days when a computer program already had a mystique, an almost magical aura. What, in the 80s? hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahha He postulate the program in 1986 by the way. At the very least read this before making another false point. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_programJVL
November 7, 2022
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VL, there is just one problem with your revisionism and highlighting of the disclaimers Dawkins laid down. Many of us were there when Weasel (and then its descendants) were being promoted as icons of evolution. We do not recall Dawkins standing up and saying to his enthusiasts, no, no, no you got it wrong, I am using an example of a pre-loaded target to simply show that strings will converge to it if proximity is rewarded. What we saw was championing of evolutionism and Weasel was used as an icon in the days when a computer program already had a mystique, an almost magical aura. That legacy has to be frankly faced, especially when there is a familiar echo of how Darwin used intelligent design by artificial selection [which narrows the gene pool in various ways and takes advantage of occasional mutations . . . think fancy goldfish and bulldog faces] as a key icon to lead into his theory. Similarly, I am going to add an update on Eugenics, which was a global craze only resisted by a few folks such as G K Chesterton, the big conference logo that identified it as self direction of human evolution . . . which reminds us of its actual roots and associations with Galton the founder of modern Eugenics and his cousins, the Darwin family. KFkairosfocus
November 7, 2022
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Kairosfocus: However, they do reveal that there is a lot of ideological loading and that there are deeply polarised cultural and policy issues at work. That was partly the point: that there is a lot of ideological loading going on. Anyway, I was responding to things other people said but you didn't tut-tut them.JVL
November 7, 2022
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Where did these side debates come from, complete with barbed projections and insinuations. This is not the thread for such. However, they do reveal that there is a lot of ideological loading and that there are deeply polarised cultural and policy issues at work.kairosfocus
November 7, 2022
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Alan Fox: I looked at the Wikipedia article. It was fascinating. Didn’t feel my time was wasted. I agree, it was interesting. You and I like learning new things, sometimes challenging things, things that expand our horizons, things that might get us to change our minds. Lots of cherry-picking and quote mining going on. And motivated reasoning.JVL
November 7, 2022
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@ JVL I looked at the Wikipedia article. It was fascinating. Didn't feel my time was wasted. It also reinforces my view that Querius is a cherry picker and succumbs to ID propaganda.Alan Fox
November 7, 2022
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How should we address Charles Darwin's complicated legacy? Perhaps comparatively by the standards of his time.Alan Fox
November 7, 2022
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Querius: Yes, but just as forensic detective work, the conclusions are always based on circumstantial evidence evaluated on likelihood. In which case the conclusion will always have to be qualified: most likely, probably, etc. Correct? The likelihoods must emerge from the evidence, and should not be fantasies of “goo-to-you” interspersed with cherry-picked evidence, which is the case with Darwinism. Have you read the hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of journal articles that have been produced in the last decades that lend support to some of the conclusions you poo-poo? If you haven't then by what right do you say the evidence is 'cherry-picked' or fantasies? Is it more likely that you are exhibiting motivated reasoning and drawing conclusions before you have considered ALL the data, not just the part that is convenient or you know agrees with your pre-held conclusion? Behold the amazing Cnidaria, the mother of all living fossils. What? Cnidaria is a whole phylum which includes over 11,000 species. What are you talking about? You said it was an organism. Do you actually bother to look things up? You really are just wasting my time aren't you? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cnidaria Are you so used to people just automatically liking what you post that you can't be bothered to see if it's true?JVL
November 6, 2022
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Eugenics resurrected in the late 19th and became widespread, culminating in a peak with Nazi Germany, sure. Charles Darwin personally was not involved with any eugenics movement.Alan Fox
November 6, 2022
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Bill Cole: The sequence problem- why Dawkins model required a target. Dr Dawkins never, ever said his programme was a model of evolution. He made it very, very clear in one of his books that his programme was only designed to show the power of cumulative selection. That's it. He did not then nor does he now say it models unguided evolution as a whole. He just never said that so why do so many people misinterpret what he actually said? Why is that? Have you not bothered to read more than just a quote-mined sentence or two? Hmmmm???JVL
November 6, 2022
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You don’t have an iteration until you get feedback. It is only the last step – the establishment of function.
This misrepresents how Weasel works quite spectacularly.Alan Fox
November 6, 2022
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Stop defending this racist slob and his failed theory.
As Sir Giles points out, this is also nonsense. Darwin's alleged racism has nothing to do with whether evolutionary theory is an accurate model.Alan Fox
November 6, 2022
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So it’s not nonsense to point out that the theory of evolution was used to justify colonialism and genocide.
No. But the accusation Querius makes by quotemining Darwin is that Charles Darwin personally was a racist. Which is nonsense.Alan Fox
November 6, 2022
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JVL @184,
Just to be clear . . . do you think it’s possible to do any kind of historical science, i.e. science which studies things that happened in the past, when we cannot go back and observe what actually occurred?
Yes, but just as forensic detective work, the conclusions are always based on circumstantial evidence evaluated on likelihood. The likelihoods must emerge from the evidence, and should not be fantasies of "goo-to-you" interspersed with cherry-picked evidence, which is the case with Darwinism. Darwinism is so weak, especially considering genomic discoveries, that even evolutionary biologists are beginning to call for a new theory. https://evo2.org/royal-society-evolution/ So here's a riddle for you: Consider a type of venomous organism that can range in size from a tiny grain of sand to something longer than a blue whale. Supposedly, it hasn’t evolved over 500 million years and cells from the originals may still be alive today. It uses a distributed neural network to react to its environment, can have eyes that range from simply detecting light and dark to human-like eyes that can detect colors, sizes, and shapes to avoid collisions or move toward prey. Behold the amazing Cnidaria, the mother of all living fossils. -QQuerius
November 6, 2022
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Alan Fox @175,
Nonsense, slavery and oppression dates back as long as civilization. Ancient Greeks and Romans were experts, Biblical slavery, and on through until the age of enlightenment. Darwin was an abolitionist.
Unfortunately, your unsupported opinions do not constitute irrefutable proof. IN HIS OWN WORDS, here's Charles Darwin on slavery and the extinction of what he considered "the savage races." In The Descent of Man, Charles Darwin writes that the
“. . . western nations of Europe . . . now so immeasurably surpass their former savage progenitors and stand at the summit of civilization” . . . “The civilized races of man will almost certainly exterminate and replace the savage races through the world.”
Darwin also suggested that as great apes go extinct, the gap between civilized man and his closest evolutionary ancestor will widen and will continue to widen until the gap is between civilized man
“. . . and some ape as low as a baboon, instead of as at present between the negro or Australian and the gorilla..”
Yes, he really did write that rubbish! He then writes,
“How little can the hard-worked wife of a degraded Australian savage, who uses hardly any abstract words and cannot count above four, exert her self-consciousness, or reflect on the nature of her own existence”
As to slavery, Charles Darwin largely objected to it due to its cruelty, which he directly observed. But check this out: In one of his letters, Darwin wrote:
“I have had some fun here in watching a slave-making ant; for I could not help rather doubting the wonderful stories, but I have now seen a marauding party, & I have seen a migration from one nest to another of the slave-makers, carrying their slaves (who are house & not field n*****s) in their mouths”
In On the Origin of Species, Darwin devotes several pages to what he called the “slave-making instinct.”
. . . it is far more satisfactory to look at such instincts as . . . ants making slaves . . . not as specially endowed or created instincts, but as small consequences of one general law, leading to the advancement of all organic beings, namely, multiply, vary, let the strongest live and the weakest die.” . . . “Such are the facts . . . in regard to the wonderful instinct of making slaves.”
Stop defending this racist slob and his failed theory. -QQuerius
November 6, 2022
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Upright BiPed @172,
You could add specification and semantic closure to your list, given that the whole topic is moot until they are in place. They are the primal “islands of function” that were predicted to exist, confirmed via experiment, and avoided by ID critics as an on-going strategy.
Yes, of course you’re right. Unfortunately, ID detractors don’t understand the necessity of design specification, nor do they have any idea or appreciation for why semantic closure is necessary. Instead, Darwinists rely on the application of essentially infinite random changes and assume that the outcomes, filtered by immediate step-wise advantage, will somehow magically produce limitless complexity, the details of which are left as an exercise to their faithful believers. However, they’ve never ever been able to demonstrate examples of what they consider inevitable, and they never will for the underlying considerations you mentioned. The experimental challenge to Darwinism remains: 1. Create a smoothie out of living bacteria. 2. Subject it to any set of steps involving dramatic changes in temperature, pressure, geological and atmospheric chemicals, electrical discharges, alpha/beta/gamma radiation, gravitational forces or lack thereof, shaking, stirring, vortexes, atomization, whatever. 3. Reconstitute some form of living bacteria. In other words, simply reassemble "methinks it is like a weasel" from out of the primordial alphabet soup. Good luck with that. -QQuerius
November 6, 2022
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SG at 189, The problem with evolution involves probability and waiting time. A change cannot be predicted, and then there's the issue of how long it takes the change to be fixed in a population. A number of articles have been posted here by Ba77 that clearly shows that to make two or three changes requires millions of years at best. And the waiting time increases further if the number of changes exceeds that, so evolution, as presented in textbooks, did not have enough time to make few if any changes. So probability rules out changes occurring in any useful time frame by any organism.relatd
November 6, 2022
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VL - and anyone interested Allow me to give a little background on myself and my relationship with the illustrious weasel simulation. I got interested in the ID - Darwin debate back around 2006. At that time the debate seemed to center around how complex function could develop from disparate elements when there was no function to select for. The main mechanisms proposed were co-option (not quite the right word but close) and scaffolding. It seemed vaguely comical to encounter a simulation that showed a complex configuration arise by simply defining it to do so.. I recently described it as "proving that natural selection can advance toward a complex target if natural selection can advance toward a complex target." I think we agree on this much. The only possible value in the simulation I can see - would be if somebody doubted that if something advances toward a target that it'll eventually get there. And as for me referring to the process as single-step, the pattern for cumulative selection would look like this: Change, Feedback Change, Feedback, Change, Feedback. ... The pattern for the weasel is: Change, Change, Change, Change, Feedback. You don't have an iteration until you get feedback. It is only the last step - the establishment of function - that can be extrapolated into the world of biology.hnorman42
November 6, 2022
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PM1: So it’s not nonsense to point out that the theory of evolution was used to justify colonialism and genocide.
I don’t think anyone is disagreeing with this. Where the argument falls off the rails is when it is used as an argument against the validity of evolution.Sir Giles
November 6, 2022
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VL
Second, Weasel is relevant, as a rough analogy, to evolution, in that it models populations with multiple members going through changes over multiple generations, and slowly changing
What evolution is missing is a real population genetics model of how new genes are created. The two main obstacles are: The sequence problem- why Dawkins model required a target. The waiting time problem-the time it takes to fix changes in a population.bill cole
November 6, 2022
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The Global Cabal of Relabelers and Repackagers has relabeled SLAVERY today. It is now called Human Trafficking, which means slavery. So, no progress there. There is ample evidence to show that certain people used the theory of evolution to wipe out other people, including Margaret Sanger.relatd
November 6, 2022
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@175
Nonsense, slavery and oppression dates back as long as civilization. Ancient Greeks and Romans were experts, Biblical slavery, and on through until the age of enlightenment. Darwin was an abolitionist.
It's true that slavery is as old as civilization, though the chattel slavery that defined the 16th-19th centuries was different from what it was in antiquity. In antiquity, being a slave was a grave misfortune that could happen to someone who happened to be on the losing side of a war. With the dawn of colonialism, slavery was transformed in lots of important respects. The dehumanization that we now think of as defining slavery begins in this period. A Greek or Roman slave was deprived of their autonomy, but they weren't less than fully human. And while it's true that Darwin himself was an abolitionist, that doesn't change the fact that evolution was used to legitimize the dehumanization of racism, colonialism, and genocide -- as lots of sciences were, before the rise of evolutionary theory and continuing after. So it's not nonsense to point out that the theory of evolution was used to justify colonialism and genocide.PyrrhoManiac1
November 6, 2022
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any arguments about it do not get us any closer to whether evolution or God best explains the diversity of life.
Yet, there is an answer available. And the dichotomy above is not a valid one.jerry
November 6, 2022
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Querius: Gosh, I wonder what tiny steps preceded RNA or the ADP-ADP cycle. No fair using the speculative words “musta,” “coulda,” or “mighta,” the mainstays of Darwinism. Just to be clear . . . do you think it's possible to do any kind of historical science, i.e. science which studies things that happened in the past, when we cannot go back and observe what actually occurred?JVL
November 6, 2022
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It is relevant for a couple of reasons. One is that many (most) arguments I have read about how something is impossible because the probability of it happening is so small are working on the assumption that a whole bunch of parts came together independently at one trial, like throwing a whole bunch of coins at once, rather than through a series of selected steps and with huge populations. That's not the way the world works, so such calculations are unrealistic and thus not relevant. Second, Weasel is relevant, as a rough analogy, to evolution, in that it models populations with multiple members going through changes over multiple generations, and slowly changing. Note well: Weasel doesn’t prove anything. It’s not evidence for evolution. It’s just a “toy” illustrative model to illustrate a point. But the point is relevant. Also note well, again. It is not modeling natural selection, and Dawkins was clear about that. It was modeling slow accumulative change under artificial (intelligent, if you will) selection as opposed to random chance.Viola Lee
November 6, 2022
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