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L&FP, 63: Do design thinkers, theists and the like “always” make bad arguments because they are “all” ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked?

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Dawkins’ barbed blanket dismissiveness comes up far too often in discussions of the design inference and related themes. Rarely, explicitly, most often by implication of a far too commonly seen no concessions, selectively hyperskeptical policy that objectors to design too often manifest. It is time to set this straight.

First, we need to highlight fallacious, crooked yardstick thinking (as exposed by naturally straight and upright plumb-lines). And yes, that classical era work, the Bible, is telling:

Notice, a pivotal point here, is self-evident truths. Things, similar to 2 + 3 = 5:

Notoriously, Winston Smith in 1984 is put on the rack to break his mind to conform to The Party’s double-think. He is expected to think 2 + 2 = whatever The Party needs at the moment, suppressing the last twisted answer, believing that was always the case, while simultaneously he must know that manifestly 2 + 2 = 4 on pain of instant absurdity. This is of course a toy example but it exposes the way crooked yardstick thinking leads to chaos:

Of Lemmings, marches of folly and cliffs of self-falsifying absurdity . . .

(Yes, real lemmings do not act like that. But, humans . . . that’s a whole other story.)

So, now, let us turn to a recent barbed remark by one of our frequent objectors and my reply, laying out a frame of thought and inviting correction — dodged, of course:

KF, 120 in the Foundations thread: [[It is now clear that SG is unwilling to substantially back up the one liner insinuation he made at 84 above, try making a good argument. Accordingly, let me respond in outline, for record, to the general case, that people like us are ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked and the associated zero concessions, selectively hyperskeptical dismissiveness policy. Here, I will show the rational responsibility of the design inference and related ideas, views and approaches, for record and reference:

I will use steps of thought:

1: Reason, in general: Notice, supporters and fellow travellers of evolutionary materialistic scientism undermine the responsible, rational freedom required for reason to be credible. They tend to discount and discredit objectors, but in fact their arguments and assertions are self-referentially incoherent, especially reduction of mind to computationalism on a wetware substrate. Reppert is right to point out, following Haldane and others:

. . . let us suppose that brain state A [–> notice, state of a wetware, electrochemically operated computational substrate], which is token identical to the thought that all men are mortal, and brain state B, which is token identical to the thought that Socrates is a man, together cause the belief [–> concious, perceptual state or disposition] that Socrates is mortal. It isn’t enough for rational inference that these events be those beliefs, it is also necessary that the causal transaction be in virtue of the content of those thoughts . . . [But] if naturalism is true, then the propositional content is irrelevant to the causal transaction that produces the conclusion, and [so] we do not have a case of rational inference. In rational inference, as Lewis puts it, one thought causes another thought not by being, but by being seen to be, the ground for it. But causal transactions in the brain occur in virtue of the brain’s being in a particular type of state that is relevant to physical causal transactions.

2: This extends to Marx’s class/cultural conditioning, to Freud’s potty training etc, to Skinner’s operant conditioning , to claims my genes made me do it, and many more. So, irrationality and undermining of the credibility of reason are a general issue for such supporters and fellow travellers, it is unsurprising to see projection to the despised other (a notorious defence mechanism) and linked failure to engage self referentiality.

3: First principles of right reason: Classically, the core of reason starts with distinct identity, excluded middle, non contradiction. Something x is what it is i/l/o its core characteristics, nothing can be both x and not x in the same sense and circumstances, any y in W = {x| ~x} will be x, ~x, not both or neither. And more. Claimed quantum counter examples etc actually are rooted in reasoning that relies on such. And yes, there have been enough objections that this has come up and is in UD’s Weak Argument Correctives. We leave it to objectors like SG to tell us whether they acknowledge such first principles of right reason: _______ and explain why ________ .

4: Self evidence: There are arguments that, once we have enough experience and maturity to understand [a sometimes big if], will be seen as true, as necessarily true and as true on pain of immediate absurdities on attempted denial. That error exists is a good case in point, and if one is able to see that the attempt to deny objectivity of knowledge for a given reasonably distinct field of thought such as morals or history or reality [metaphysics], or the physical world, or external reality, or in general, etc, one is claiming to objectively know something about that field and so refutes oneself.

5: self referential incoherence and question begging: We just saw an example of how arguments and arguers can include themselves in the zone of reference of an argument in ways that undermine it, often by implying a contradiction. Such arguments defeat themselves. Question begging is different, it assumes, suggests or imposes what should be shown and for which there are responsible alternatives. Arguments can be question begging, and then may turn out to be self refuting.

6: Deduction, induction, abduction (inference to the best [current] explanation [IBE]) and weak-form knowledge: Deduction uses logical validity to chain from givens to conclusions, where if givens are so and the chain valid, conclusions must also be true. Absent errors of reasoning, the debate rapidly becomes one over why the givens. Induction, modern sense, is about degree of support for conclusions i/l/o evidence of various kinds as opposed to demonstration, statistics, history, science, etc are common contexts. Abduction, especially IBE, compares live option alternatives and what they imply, on factual adequacy, coherence and balance of explanatory power, to choose the best explanation so far. In this context weak sense common knowledge is warranted, credibly true (so, reliable) belief. Which, is open to correction or revision and extension.

7: Worldviews context: Why accept A? B. But why B? C, etc. We see that we face infinite regress, or circularity or finitely remote first plausibles . . . which, frame our faith points . . . as we set out to understand our world. Infinite regress is impossible to traverse in reasoning or in cause effect steps, so we set it aside, we are forced to have finitely remote start points to reasoning and believing, warranting and knowing — first plausibles that define our views of the world. Thus, we all live by faith, the question is which, why; so, whether it is rational/reasonable and responsible. Where, too, all serious worldview options bristle with difficulties, hence the point that philosophy is the discipline that studies hard, basic questions. Question begging circles are a challenge, answered through comparative difficulties across factual adequacy, coherence and balance of explanatory power: elegantly simple, neither ad hoc nor simplistic.

[Let’s add an illustration:]

A summary of why we end up with foundations for our worldviews, whether or not we would phrase the matter that way}

[or in Aristotle’s words:]

8: Failure of evolutionary materialistic scientism and fellow traveller views: It will be evident already, that, while institutionally and culturally dominant, evolutionary materialistic scientism and fellow travellers are profoundly and irretrievably incoherent. Yes, a view backed by institutions, power brokers in the academy, the education system and the media can be irretrievably, fatally cracked from its roots.

9: Logic of being (and of structure and quantity), also possible worlds: Ontology and her grand child, Mathematics, grow out of core philosophy, particularly distinct identity and consideration of possible worlds. A possible world, w, is a sufficiently complete description of how our world or another conceivable or even actual world is or may be; i.e. a cluster of core, world describing propositions. In that context, a candidate being or entity or even state of affairs, c, can be impossible of being [e.g. a Euclidean plane square circle] or possible. Possible beings may be contingent [actual in at least one possible world but not all] or necessary [present in every possible world]. We and fires are contingent, dependent for existence on many independent, prior factors; what begins or may cease of existence is contingent. Necessary beings are best seen as part of the fabric or framework for this or any possible world. We can show that distinct identity implies two-ness, thence 0, 1, 2. Ponder, W = {A|~A}, the partition is empty, 0, A is a unit, ~A is a complex unit, so we see 2. So, onward via von Neumann’s construction, the counting numbers N. Thence, Z, Q, R, C, R* etc in any w. This is what gives core Mathematics its universal power.

10: The basic credibility of the design inference: of course, we routinely recognise that many things show reliable signs of intelligently directed configuration as key cause, i.e. design. For example, objectors to the design inference often issue copious, complex text in English, beyond 500 to 1,000 bits of complexity. In the 70’s Orgel and Wicken identified a distinct and quantifiable phenomenon, functionally specific, complex organisation and/or associated information, which I often abbreviate FSCO/I. Organisation is there as things like a fishing reel [my favourite, e.g. the ABU 6500 CT] or a watch [Paley, do not overlook his self replicating watch thought exercise in Ch 2]

or an oil refinery or a computer program [including machine code]

Petroleum refinery block diagram illustrating FSCO/I in a process-flow system

or the cell’s metabolic process-flow network [including protein synthesis]

[with:]

Step by step protein synthesis in action, in the ribosome, based on the sequence of codes in the mRNA control tape (Courtesy, Wikipedia and LadyofHats)

[and:]

all can be described in a suitably compact string of Y/N questions, structured through description languages such as AutoCAD. The inference posits that, with trillions of cases under our belt, reliably, FSCO/I or its generalisation, CSI, will be signs of design as key cause. The controversies, as may be readily seen, are not for want of evidence or inability to define or quantify, but because this challenges the dominant evolutionary materialism and fellow travellers. Which, of course, long since failed through irretrievable self referential incoherence.
_____________________

So, challenge: let SG and/or others show where the above fails to be rational and responsible, if they can__________________ Prediction, aside from mere disagreement and/or dismissiveness, assertions, or the trifecta fallacy of red herrings, led away to strawmen soaked in ad hominems and set alight to cloud, confuse, poison and polarise the atmosphere, they will not be able to sustain a case for general failure to be rational and responsible.]]

The good argument challenge is duly open for response. END

U/D, Nov 4: As it seems certain objectors want to attack the descriptive metaphor, islands of function amidst seas of non function, let me put up here a couple of infographics I used some years ago to discuss this concept. But first, as the primary contexts have to do with protein synthesis and OoL, let me first put up Vuk Nicolic’s video illustrating just what is required for protein synthesis:

. . . and Dr James Tour’s summary presentation on OoL synthesis challenges:

Now, this is my framework for discussing islands of function:

. . . and, on associated active information:

Thus, we can discuss the Orgel-Wicken functionally specific, complex organisation and associated information concept, FSCO/I, similarly:

We see here the needle in a haystack, blind search challenge and how it is dominated by not the hill climbing on fitness functions that is commonly discussed but by the issue of arriving at shorelines of first function. Obviously and primarily, for origin of cell based life [cf. Tour] but also to move from that first unicellular body plan to others. Where, we can observe too that even within an island of function, incremental changes will be challenged by intervening valleys, tending to trap on a given peak or plateau.

But, what of the thesis, that there is in effect a readily accessible first functionality, incrementally connected to all major body plans, allowing unlimited, branching tree of life body plan level macro evolution?

The Smithsonian’s tree of life model, note the root in OOL

Obviously, this architecture implies such continuity. The first problem, obviously is the root and the plethora of speculations and debatable or even dubious syntheses that have been made into icons of the grand evolutionary narrative and taught as effective fact, already tell us something is wrong. A second clue is how the diagram itself implies that transitional forms should utterly dominate the space, with terminal tips being far less common. On basic statistics, we should then expect an abundance of these transitions or “links.” The phrase, missing link, tells the tale instead.

For, the trade secret of paleontology, is the utter rarity of such forms, to the point where punctuated equilibria was a major school intended to explain that general absence. Where, Darwin, notoriously, noted the gaps but expected and predicted that on wider investigations they would go away. But now, after 150 years of searching, billions of fossils seen in situ, millions in museum back office drawers [only a relative few can be displayed] and over a quarter of a million fossil species, the pattern of gaps is very much still here, hot denials and dismissals notwithstanding. That is especially true of the Cambrian fossil life form revolution, where the major current body plans for animals pop up with nary an intermediate. So much so, that there have been significant efforts to make it disappear, obfuscating its significance.

We also have molecular islands of function, starting with protein fold domains. Thousands, scattered across the AA sequence space, no easy path connecting them. Even just homochirality soon accumulates into a serious search space challenge as molecules are complex and mirror image handedness is not energetically enforced, why racemic forms, 50-50 mixes of left and right handed molecules are what we tend to get in lab syntheses. This then gets more complicated where there are multiple isomers as Tour discusses.

In short, a real issue not a readily dismissible notion without significant empirical support.

And so forth.

U/D2 Nov 4: I just found where I had an image from p. 11 NFL, so observe:

ID researcher William A Dembski, NFL, p.11 on possibilities, target zones and events

Where, we can further illustrate the beach of function issue:

And, some remarks:

U/D 3 Nov 7: The all-revealing Eugenics Conference Logo from 1912 and 1921 showing how it was seen as a capstone of ever so many sciences and respected domains of knowledge, especially statistics, genetics, biology and medicine, even drawing on religion, with, politics, law, education, psychology, mental testing and sociology . . . menacingly . . . also being in the roots:

“Eugenics is the self-direction of human evolution”: Logo from the Second International Eugenics Conference, 1921, depicting Eugenics as a tree which unites a variety of different fields.

U/D 4, Nov 10: A reminder on cosmological fine tuning, from Luke Barnes:

Barnes: “What if we tweaked just two of the fundamental constants? This figure shows what the universe would look like if the strength of the strong nuclear force (which holds atoms together) and the value of the fine-structure constant (which represents the strength of the electromagnetic force between elementary particles) were higher or lower than they are in this universe. The small, white sliver represents where life can use all the complexity of chemistry and the energy of stars. Within that region, the small “x” marks the spot where those constants are set in our own universe.” (HT: New Atlantis)

U/D 5, Nov 12: As there is dismissiveness of the textual, coded information stored in DNA, it is necessary to show here a page clip from Lehninger, as a case in point of what should not even be a debated point:

For record.

U/D 6, Nov 14: The per aspect design inference explanatory filter shows how right in the core design inference, alternative candidate causes and their observational characteristics are highlighted:

Explanatory Filter

Again, for record.

Comments
JVL at 269, Hey. You should drop this site and post on pro-evolution sites. I mean, it make sense. You can avoid those annoying IDers and a good time would be had by all.relatd
November 7, 2022
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Re: The topic of Darwin and racism Perseveration is indicia of mental illness.......chuckdarwin
November 7, 2022
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Ram: If I want to rape your sister and steal your bicycle, tell me why I “shouldn’t.”
Because it would not be in your best interest to look over your shoulder for the rest of your life.Sir Giles
November 7, 2022
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Ram: Morality? What the hell does that mean in the materialist universe? If I want to rape your sister and steal your bicycle, tell me why I “shouldn’t.” Gee Ram clearly, in your febrile and childish mind, you have some greater morality which you think says you shouldn't do those things whereas you expect me not to be able to say the same. Has it ever occurred to you that if you need the threat of hell to be a good person then you're just a bad person on a leash? I don't need that threat to treat my fellow human beings the way they wish to be treated. I don't look for some higher authority to tell me how to treat them, I ask them how they wish to be treated. They don't want to be killed, they don't want to be enslaved, they don't want to be exploited or made fun of or marginalised or robbed or raped or stolen from. You need someone to tell you those things? I feel really sorry for you.JVL
November 7, 2022
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Morality? What the hell does that mean in the materialist universe? If I want to rape your sister and steal your bicycle, tell me why I "shouldn't." You may not like it, but why should I care?ram
November 7, 2022
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@264
1. If Darwinism is true, does Eugenics naturally follow?
No, not at all. But also: the modern synthesis version of evolutionary theory entails that eugenics cannot succeed.
2. If we can control the evolution of humanity, are we then morally obligated to do so?
I don't think so -- our moral obligations have a logically different ground than evolutionary theory. Even if we could control human evolution (which I very much doubt!), a moral obligation to do so could only follow from the nature of moral obligations as such.
3. If human overpopulation threatens to destroy the carrying capacity of our biome, are we morally obligated to limit or even “cull” the human population of the earth?
Perhaps as the very last, most desperate move, after everything else has failed -- perhaps if the extinction of all of humanity is the only alternative.PyrrhoManiac1
November 7, 2022
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Querius: So you repudiate Charles Darwin’s conclusions in The Descent of Man? Which specific conclusions? 1. If Darwinism is true, does Eugenics naturally follow? No, Eugenics is a political and ethical and sociological position not a scientific one. Unguided evolutionary theory tells you how biology works not how society should work. 2. If we can control the evolution of humanity, are we then morally obligated to do so? Clearly not, as Darwin himself noted. But we have done some lovely things to protect all humans, like developing vaccines. Vaccines deniers will deny that of course. 3. If human overpopulation threatens to destroy the carrying capacity of our biome, are we morally obligated to limit or even “cull” the human population of the earth? By what morals would that be the case?JVL
November 7, 2022
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JVL @262, So you repudiate Charles Darwin's conclusions in The Descent of Man? -QQuerius
November 7, 2022
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PyrrhoManiac1 @253,
Was he more racist than the average upper-class Victorian gentleman? No — he was precisely as racist as the average upper-class Victorian gentleman. That’s the issue, and pretending otherwise does us no favors, especially when Darwinism has been invoked to justify racism ever since the 1850s and remains so even today.
Once again, beautifully and accurately stated! I think it's indeed necessary to divide the man, his personal motives, and the European supremacist prejudices of the time from the hypothesis he promoted. What I've been able to demonstrate here with the cooperation of JVL, Alan Fox, and others, is the ideological basis behind blind acceptance of everything Darwin stood for and the immediate rush to Darwin's defense regardless. This is why the subject of Eugenics, raised in the OP, and mentioned several times, is germane to the discussion. It's seemingly a logical extension of Charles Darwin's conclusions in The Descent of Man. The questions remain 1. If Darwinism is true, does Eugenics naturally follow? 2. If we can control the evolution of humanity, are we then morally obligated to do so? 3. If human overpopulation threatens to destroy the carrying capacity of our biome, are we morally obligated to limit or even "cull" the human population of the earth? -QQuerius
November 7, 2022
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Abraham Lincoln:
"I will say, then, that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races -- that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this, that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I, as much as any other man, am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race."
“There is no reason in the world why the Negro is not entitled to all the natural rights enumerated in the Declaration of Independence, the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I hold that he is as much entitled to these as the white man. I agree with Judge Douglas he is not my equal in many respects-certainly not in color, perhaps not in moral or intellectual endowment. But in the right to eat the bread, without the leave of anybody else, which his own hand earns, he is my equal and the equal of Judge Douglas, and the equal of every living man.”
Frederick Douglass:
“We saw him, measured him, and estimated him; not by stray utterances to injudicious and tedious delegations . . . not by isolated facts torn from their connection; not by any partial and imperfect glimpses, caught at inopportune moments; but by a broad survey, in the light of the stern logic of great events, and in view of that divinity which shapes our ends, rough hew them how we will, we came to the conclusion that the hour and the man of our redemption had somehow met in the person of Abraham Lincoln."
JVL
November 7, 2022
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Querius: What I find interesting is that Darwinist ideologues absolutely refuse to acknowledge any criticism of their messiah That is not true. The reason for the negative reaction is because questioning Darwin's personal ethics is almost always used as a reason to doubt his theory. And that's very bad reasoning. That's attacking the messenger. Darwin would probably be considered racist today IF he said the same things he did in the 19th century. So would Abraham Lincoln (born at the same time as Darwin). And Thomas Jefferson. And George Washington. And all the US Founding Fathers who did not take a stand against slavery in their formulation of the US Constitution or the Bill of Rights. A lot of people were racist then, and up until the end of the 19th century. A lot of people are still racist now. I do not accept racism nor do I apologise for that view. But that has NOTHING to do with whether or not Darwin was correct about how life evolved on Earth. And when people try and use his (probably) racist views as an argument against his theory . . . then expect to be disrespected for committing a logical fallacy.JVL
November 7, 2022
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Jerry: I said I’m not here to have a discussion. That’s very different from participating in one if it is fruitful. If one happens and one learns that is fine. Nice weasel words. It gives you the chance to walk away if you can't answer a question. Which you have avoided doing many, many times. Haven't you? You just justify it by saying to yourself: this isn't fruitful. As if it's only up to you to decide that. A good example is my thesis that there is an answer to whether there had been natural Evolution or not. Does a slow accumulation of changes that are selected lead to new functionality is definitely testable. Only one person so far has responded. I’ve made is several times. I remember. And I did ask: why is it that the ID community hasn't pursued this? I guess you've forgotten that as well. Meanwhile, in this thread, I have asked you several times where certain morphological changes are determined. Your response . . . . nil. I have pointed out that cumulative selection can definitely lead to morphological changes as has been clearly documented despite your claims to the contrary. Your response . . . nada. Conclusion: you only want to have a discussion when your own beliefs and statements are not brought into question; in that case you ignore all such queries and questions. My guess: you can't answer the questions posed so you ignore them telling yourself they are not fruitful. Is that about it?JVL
November 7, 2022
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Relatd: I see you’re safe and secure behind your barricade. Expect no visitors aside from those that agree with you 100%. Meanwhile, I regard your dismissal of ID as irrational or ideologically motivated, nothing more. What I said was true: all the data and evidence is consistent with the unguided evolutionary theory. And I notice that you didn't bring up any specific reasons to doubt that, you just chose to throw brickbats which you think will be applauded by your fellow believers. Very nice. Not very scientific but it looks good on the Christmas cards. You should know by now that this is only about a commitment to a failed theory, nothing more. And yes, like a man with a saw who is sawing away the branch he’s sitting on, there will no surrender until the branch breaks and hits the ground, or until prominent journals in the field admit defeat, whichever comes first. Ignoring the fact that there are many, many journals and hundreds if not thousands of journal articles published every year support the unguided evolutionary theory. How much ID research is being done? What is the ID research agenda? How many journals do they have? Hello? Have you got an answer?JVL
November 7, 2022
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Querius: The blind watchmaker creates parts at random and doesn’t have a watch in mind. The result could be a chainsaw, jet engine, or pogo stick but the parts are all mixed together. Like I've already said: despite your claims to have spent time studying unguided evolution you clearly have a very erroneous grasp on its basic tenets. Similarly, “the weasel” assumes the alphabet, where in real life each letter is as hard to make as a watch, and putting them together requires one to start over from scratch each time the phrase doesn’t make sense. You don't have to dig your hole any deeper but if that's what you want . . .JVL
November 7, 2022
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To accuse Darwin of racism is what is called “presentism” today.
Thanks, Jerry. I did not know there was a word for it.Alan Fox
November 7, 2022
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*chuckles*Alan Fox
November 7, 2022
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PyrrhoManiac1 @220,
Perhaps comparatively by the standards of his time.
Perhaps, but I think that’s usually pretty weak tea. After all, everyone is a product of their own time. (Think of it this way: it would be a bad question to ask, “who is more a product of their own time, Bull Connor or Martin Luther King Jr?”) Most people accept the social conventions of their own time without much question, especially if they materially or symbolically benefit from those conventions. It takes rare moral courage to stand up and say “no, these practices are wrong!” And it is (unfortunately) not infrequent to see people, even quite brilliant and gifted philosophers and scientists, being even more bigoted and discriminatory than the prevailing social norms would prescribe. In any event, the prevailing evidence I’ve seen is that Darwin abhorred slavery but was nevertheless racist. Which, I think, was probably a pretty common view for upper-class Victorians.
Well stated! And from my reading of Darwin's works, I agree with your last statement as an accurate representation. He was indeed appalled by the abusive treatment of slaves by his personal observations in Brazil. What I find interesting is that Darwinist ideologues absolutely refuse to acknowledge any criticism of their messiah (and yes, I mean this in a quasi-religious context), Charles Darwin, or they find some “weak tea” rationalization of his clearly racist views expressed in both The Descent of Man and his letters. A better approach would be to dispassionately examine the evidence regardless of its broader ideological implications. This would at least help us understand more scientifically what we think we know apart from what we absolutely don’t know. -QQuerius
November 7, 2022
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My guess is. that Darwin would be a very different person today. I suspect that he would reject racism as well as his own theories on biological change. To accuse Darwin of racism is what is called "presentism" today. What should count is the evidence/lack of it backing up his ideas on biological change.jerry
November 7, 2022
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Darwin accepted without much question or thought that the British Empire had the right to dominate the planet...
I grew up in the heart of England (Warwickshire, Shakespeare's England) and that was the pervasive view a century after Darwin. Partly why I don't live there any more. Anyway, Querius started it!Alan Fox
November 7, 2022
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@252
Looking through the whole volume, I’m not convinced that accusing Darwin of racism on the strength of that book is justified. The language is often paternalistic, condescending and written from the wealthy white male perspective, sure, but as I said, by the standards of his time, not unusual.
Sure, but "the standards of his time" were really pretty racist! I mean, there were African and Asian people on display in zoos during his life-time. I don't think it does us any good to downplay or mitigate the fact that Darwin accepted without much question or thought that the British Empire had the right to dominate the planet, and what that really meant for the millions of non-White people throughout the Global South who lived under British rule. Was he more racist than the average upper-class Victorian gentleman? No -- he was precisely as racist as the average upper-class Victorian gentleman. That's the issue, and pretending otherwise does us no favors, especially when Darwinism has been invoked to justify racism ever since the 1850s and remains so even today.PyrrhoManiac1
November 7, 2022
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Is his racism irrelevant to how we should understand evolutionary theory today? I would say so, yes.
The racist allegation arises from his second work on evolution, The Descent of Man, and Selection in Relation to Sex. Looking through the whole volume, I'm not convinced that accusing Darwin of racism on the strength of that book is justified. The language is often paternalistic, condescending and written from the wealthy white male perspective, sure, but as I said, by the standards of his time, not unusual.Alan Fox
November 7, 2022
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Querius at 247, You should know by now that this is only about a commitment to a failed theory, nothing more. And yes, like a man with a saw who is sawing away the branch he's sitting on, there will no surrender until the branch breaks and hits the ground, or until prominent journals in the field admit defeat, whichever comes first.relatd
November 7, 2022
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I guess I shouldn’t be surprised that you’re defending racism. What is it about “exterminate and replace the savage races” that you don’t get?
What you don't get, Querius, is that current evolutionary theory works whether Charles Darwin can in some way shown to be a closet racist or not. So can we disentangle your comments, so that Darwin's alleged racism is one issue and whether evolutionary theory is a valid, useful theory or not. Oh, and The descent of man, and selection in relation to sex. is freely available to read on line. I can't claim to have read it all, but I have dipped in to it. Fascinating! I'll see if I can match your quotes to the actual text, then we shall see whether the context supports your frothed-up view.Alan Fox
November 7, 2022
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Jerry specifically told me he didn’t want to have a discussion. Talk to him about that.
I never said that. I said I’m not here to have a discussion. That’s very different from participating in one if it is fruitful. If one happens and one learns that is fine. My experience is that few really want to learn/understand and discuss. They want to pontificate, obfuscate or find fault mostly with inane comments or ignorance. And then many respond to the inane comments. That describes about 90% of the comments here. A good example is my thesis that there is an answer to whether there had been natural Evolution or not. Does a slow accumulation of changes that are selected lead to new functionality is definitely testable. Only one person so far has responded. I’ve made is several times. The only one who responded was Ann Gauger who said it was a lot of work but was being done. aside: it’s perfectly ok to occasionally respond to inane comments if is a way to make a clarification or a particular point.jerry
November 7, 2022
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JVL at 243, "That’s what it claims to be. And, so far, all the data and evidence and research is consistent with it all being unguided." I see you're safe and secure behind your barricade. Expect no visitors aside from those that agree with you 100%. Meanwhile, I regard your dismissal of ID as irrational or ideologically motivated, nothing more.relatd
November 7, 2022
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Kairosfocus @208 and 217, Regarding the “blind watchmaker” and “the weasel,” you make good points. What’s missing from the discussion is that the blind watchmaker doesn’t start with the parts to the watch. The blind watchmaker creates parts at random and doesn’t have a watch in mind. The result could be a chainsaw, jet engine, or pogo stick but the parts are all mixed together. Similarly, “the weasel” assumes the alphabet, where in real life each letter is as hard to make as a watch, and putting them together requires one to start over from scratch each time the phrase doesn’t make sense. A better analogy is finding a book with a typo it in and concluding that the entire book “musta” evolved from random letters. -QQuerius
November 7, 2022
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Jerry: I continually point out that much of what gets posted here are just personal opinions and gotchas to make an ID person look bad. It has little to do with ID. Kf and BA post lots of hard material though some are hard to read. Very hard to read. But not as funny as some of your posts. Or your inability to respond to questions. Dawkins used the word cumulative over 90 times in the Blind Watchmaker. So he obviously thinks the concept important. Yah think? 90 times! Wow. I wonder how often he used the word 'mutation'? Or 'evolution'? Or 'creationism'? Or 'designed'?JVL
November 7, 2022
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@196
As Sir Giles points out, this is also nonsense. Darwin’s alleged racism has nothing to do with whether evolutionary theory is an accurate model.
Darwin's racism is pretty well-documented. He very clearly thought that non-White races were less intellectually and morally sophisticated than Europeans. This shouldn't even be controversial -- and it's completely consistent with his support for abolitionism. (After all, one can think it's morally wrong to eat animals and still not think that they should have the right to vote.) Is his racism irrelevant to how we should understand evolutionary theory today? I would say so, yes. But it's not irrelevant if we're talking about the history of science or the history of how science and culture have interacted. So it all depends on what we're talking about -- and why. For that matter, there were even in the 19th century there were defenders of evolution who were scientific racists and others who weren't. As remains the case today.PyrrhoManiac1
November 7, 2022
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JVL @200,
Querius: Yes, but just as forensic detective work, the conclusions are always based on circumstantial evidence evaluated on likelihood. JVL: In which case the conclusion will always have to be qualified: most likely, probably, etc. Correct?
Correct. But the tentative conclusion must provide solid evidence rather than ideology in the form of science fantasy. The tentative conclusion should not move beyond the evidence, which is entirely in the domain of legitimate hypotheses that can be tested against new evidence, pro and con.
Have you read the hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of journal articles that have been produced in the last decades that lend support to some of the conclusions you poo-poo?
Yes, I have and continue to do so. As a result, I’d started questioning my belief in Darwinism in the college biology classes I took, later dropping it by the time I finished college. There seems to be several built-in mechanisms that promote adaptation within limits. These are considered in detail in Evolution 2.0. (https://evo2.org/)
What? Cnidaria is a whole phylum which includes over 11,000 species.
Correct again. You find this incredible because you don’t understand its implications. Also, you should know that there’s a good reason why you don’t find scientific papers referencing Wikipedia. I guess you never bothered to watch Dr. James Tour’s excellent OOL video, which would go a long way to address your ignorance on the subject of the evolutionary OOL issues. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v36_v4hsB-Y&t=140s And what I “poo-poo” is more-accurately termed feces. At least by your doctor. -QQuerius
November 7, 2022
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Relatd: Liar! Dishonest. Anytime you only consider some of the evidence you are cherry picking. You don’t think like I do so you’re wrong! That's not why I criticise people's statements; it's because they have misinterpreted something that is easy to verify or they have ignored (intentionally?) some of the pertinent evidence. You make stupid comments. Some people do make stupid comments. Especially when they claimed to have read such and such source but can't get the general statements made in that source correct. YOU don’t want to have a discussion, with vague hints of you are bad/evil. Jerry specifically told me he didn't want to have a discussion. Talk to him about that. The pro-ID side has evidence of Design. It's just not very good. It's all interpretations of unknown or poorly understood processes and 'god of the gaps'. Evolution is not a self-starting, self-running engine. That's what it claims to be. And, so far, all the data and evidence and research is consistent with it all being unguided. Only a designer can design, can create. That means an Intelligent entity as opposed to nothing. As opposed to chance. Only in your experience is not a valid scientific argument. Just like when people claimed there could be no black swans. Ooops.JVL
November 7, 2022
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