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L&FP, 63: Do design thinkers, theists and the like “always” make bad arguments because they are “all” ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked?

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Dawkins’ barbed blanket dismissiveness comes up far too often in discussions of the design inference and related themes. Rarely, explicitly, most often by implication of a far too commonly seen no concessions, selectively hyperskeptical policy that objectors to design too often manifest. It is time to set this straight.

First, we need to highlight fallacious, crooked yardstick thinking (as exposed by naturally straight and upright plumb-lines). And yes, that classical era work, the Bible, is telling:

Notice, a pivotal point here, is self-evident truths. Things, similar to 2 + 3 = 5:

Notoriously, Winston Smith in 1984 is put on the rack to break his mind to conform to The Party’s double-think. He is expected to think 2 + 2 = whatever The Party needs at the moment, suppressing the last twisted answer, believing that was always the case, while simultaneously he must know that manifestly 2 + 2 = 4 on pain of instant absurdity. This is of course a toy example but it exposes the way crooked yardstick thinking leads to chaos:

Of Lemmings, marches of folly and cliffs of self-falsifying absurdity . . .

(Yes, real lemmings do not act like that. But, humans . . . that’s a whole other story.)

So, now, let us turn to a recent barbed remark by one of our frequent objectors and my reply, laying out a frame of thought and inviting correction — dodged, of course:

KF, 120 in the Foundations thread: [[It is now clear that SG is unwilling to substantially back up the one liner insinuation he made at 84 above, try making a good argument. Accordingly, let me respond in outline, for record, to the general case, that people like us are ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked and the associated zero concessions, selectively hyperskeptical dismissiveness policy. Here, I will show the rational responsibility of the design inference and related ideas, views and approaches, for record and reference:

I will use steps of thought:

1: Reason, in general: Notice, supporters and fellow travellers of evolutionary materialistic scientism undermine the responsible, rational freedom required for reason to be credible. They tend to discount and discredit objectors, but in fact their arguments and assertions are self-referentially incoherent, especially reduction of mind to computationalism on a wetware substrate. Reppert is right to point out, following Haldane and others:

. . . let us suppose that brain state A [–> notice, state of a wetware, electrochemically operated computational substrate], which is token identical to the thought that all men are mortal, and brain state B, which is token identical to the thought that Socrates is a man, together cause the belief [–> concious, perceptual state or disposition] that Socrates is mortal. It isn’t enough for rational inference that these events be those beliefs, it is also necessary that the causal transaction be in virtue of the content of those thoughts . . . [But] if naturalism is true, then the propositional content is irrelevant to the causal transaction that produces the conclusion, and [so] we do not have a case of rational inference. In rational inference, as Lewis puts it, one thought causes another thought not by being, but by being seen to be, the ground for it. But causal transactions in the brain occur in virtue of the brain’s being in a particular type of state that is relevant to physical causal transactions.

2: This extends to Marx’s class/cultural conditioning, to Freud’s potty training etc, to Skinner’s operant conditioning , to claims my genes made me do it, and many more. So, irrationality and undermining of the credibility of reason are a general issue for such supporters and fellow travellers, it is unsurprising to see projection to the despised other (a notorious defence mechanism) and linked failure to engage self referentiality.

3: First principles of right reason: Classically, the core of reason starts with distinct identity, excluded middle, non contradiction. Something x is what it is i/l/o its core characteristics, nothing can be both x and not x in the same sense and circumstances, any y in W = {x| ~x} will be x, ~x, not both or neither. And more. Claimed quantum counter examples etc actually are rooted in reasoning that relies on such. And yes, there have been enough objections that this has come up and is in UD’s Weak Argument Correctives. We leave it to objectors like SG to tell us whether they acknowledge such first principles of right reason: _______ and explain why ________ .

4: Self evidence: There are arguments that, once we have enough experience and maturity to understand [a sometimes big if], will be seen as true, as necessarily true and as true on pain of immediate absurdities on attempted denial. That error exists is a good case in point, and if one is able to see that the attempt to deny objectivity of knowledge for a given reasonably distinct field of thought such as morals or history or reality [metaphysics], or the physical world, or external reality, or in general, etc, one is claiming to objectively know something about that field and so refutes oneself.

5: self referential incoherence and question begging: We just saw an example of how arguments and arguers can include themselves in the zone of reference of an argument in ways that undermine it, often by implying a contradiction. Such arguments defeat themselves. Question begging is different, it assumes, suggests or imposes what should be shown and for which there are responsible alternatives. Arguments can be question begging, and then may turn out to be self refuting.

6: Deduction, induction, abduction (inference to the best [current] explanation [IBE]) and weak-form knowledge: Deduction uses logical validity to chain from givens to conclusions, where if givens are so and the chain valid, conclusions must also be true. Absent errors of reasoning, the debate rapidly becomes one over why the givens. Induction, modern sense, is about degree of support for conclusions i/l/o evidence of various kinds as opposed to demonstration, statistics, history, science, etc are common contexts. Abduction, especially IBE, compares live option alternatives and what they imply, on factual adequacy, coherence and balance of explanatory power, to choose the best explanation so far. In this context weak sense common knowledge is warranted, credibly true (so, reliable) belief. Which, is open to correction or revision and extension.

7: Worldviews context: Why accept A? B. But why B? C, etc. We see that we face infinite regress, or circularity or finitely remote first plausibles . . . which, frame our faith points . . . as we set out to understand our world. Infinite regress is impossible to traverse in reasoning or in cause effect steps, so we set it aside, we are forced to have finitely remote start points to reasoning and believing, warranting and knowing — first plausibles that define our views of the world. Thus, we all live by faith, the question is which, why; so, whether it is rational/reasonable and responsible. Where, too, all serious worldview options bristle with difficulties, hence the point that philosophy is the discipline that studies hard, basic questions. Question begging circles are a challenge, answered through comparative difficulties across factual adequacy, coherence and balance of explanatory power: elegantly simple, neither ad hoc nor simplistic.

[Let’s add an illustration:]

A summary of why we end up with foundations for our worldviews, whether or not we would phrase the matter that way}

[or in Aristotle’s words:]

8: Failure of evolutionary materialistic scientism and fellow traveller views: It will be evident already, that, while institutionally and culturally dominant, evolutionary materialistic scientism and fellow travellers are profoundly and irretrievably incoherent. Yes, a view backed by institutions, power brokers in the academy, the education system and the media can be irretrievably, fatally cracked from its roots.

9: Logic of being (and of structure and quantity), also possible worlds: Ontology and her grand child, Mathematics, grow out of core philosophy, particularly distinct identity and consideration of possible worlds. A possible world, w, is a sufficiently complete description of how our world or another conceivable or even actual world is or may be; i.e. a cluster of core, world describing propositions. In that context, a candidate being or entity or even state of affairs, c, can be impossible of being [e.g. a Euclidean plane square circle] or possible. Possible beings may be contingent [actual in at least one possible world but not all] or necessary [present in every possible world]. We and fires are contingent, dependent for existence on many independent, prior factors; what begins or may cease of existence is contingent. Necessary beings are best seen as part of the fabric or framework for this or any possible world. We can show that distinct identity implies two-ness, thence 0, 1, 2. Ponder, W = {A|~A}, the partition is empty, 0, A is a unit, ~A is a complex unit, so we see 2. So, onward via von Neumann’s construction, the counting numbers N. Thence, Z, Q, R, C, R* etc in any w. This is what gives core Mathematics its universal power.

10: The basic credibility of the design inference: of course, we routinely recognise that many things show reliable signs of intelligently directed configuration as key cause, i.e. design. For example, objectors to the design inference often issue copious, complex text in English, beyond 500 to 1,000 bits of complexity. In the 70’s Orgel and Wicken identified a distinct and quantifiable phenomenon, functionally specific, complex organisation and/or associated information, which I often abbreviate FSCO/I. Organisation is there as things like a fishing reel [my favourite, e.g. the ABU 6500 CT] or a watch [Paley, do not overlook his self replicating watch thought exercise in Ch 2]

or an oil refinery or a computer program [including machine code]

Petroleum refinery block diagram illustrating FSCO/I in a process-flow system

or the cell’s metabolic process-flow network [including protein synthesis]

[with:]

Step by step protein synthesis in action, in the ribosome, based on the sequence of codes in the mRNA control tape (Courtesy, Wikipedia and LadyofHats)

[and:]

all can be described in a suitably compact string of Y/N questions, structured through description languages such as AutoCAD. The inference posits that, with trillions of cases under our belt, reliably, FSCO/I or its generalisation, CSI, will be signs of design as key cause. The controversies, as may be readily seen, are not for want of evidence or inability to define or quantify, but because this challenges the dominant evolutionary materialism and fellow travellers. Which, of course, long since failed through irretrievable self referential incoherence.
_____________________

So, challenge: let SG and/or others show where the above fails to be rational and responsible, if they can__________________ Prediction, aside from mere disagreement and/or dismissiveness, assertions, or the trifecta fallacy of red herrings, led away to strawmen soaked in ad hominems and set alight to cloud, confuse, poison and polarise the atmosphere, they will not be able to sustain a case for general failure to be rational and responsible.]]

The good argument challenge is duly open for response. END

U/D, Nov 4: As it seems certain objectors want to attack the descriptive metaphor, islands of function amidst seas of non function, let me put up here a couple of infographics I used some years ago to discuss this concept. But first, as the primary contexts have to do with protein synthesis and OoL, let me first put up Vuk Nicolic’s video illustrating just what is required for protein synthesis:

. . . and Dr James Tour’s summary presentation on OoL synthesis challenges:

Now, this is my framework for discussing islands of function:

. . . and, on associated active information:

Thus, we can discuss the Orgel-Wicken functionally specific, complex organisation and associated information concept, FSCO/I, similarly:

We see here the needle in a haystack, blind search challenge and how it is dominated by not the hill climbing on fitness functions that is commonly discussed but by the issue of arriving at shorelines of first function. Obviously and primarily, for origin of cell based life [cf. Tour] but also to move from that first unicellular body plan to others. Where, we can observe too that even within an island of function, incremental changes will be challenged by intervening valleys, tending to trap on a given peak or plateau.

But, what of the thesis, that there is in effect a readily accessible first functionality, incrementally connected to all major body plans, allowing unlimited, branching tree of life body plan level macro evolution?

The Smithsonian’s tree of life model, note the root in OOL

Obviously, this architecture implies such continuity. The first problem, obviously is the root and the plethora of speculations and debatable or even dubious syntheses that have been made into icons of the grand evolutionary narrative and taught as effective fact, already tell us something is wrong. A second clue is how the diagram itself implies that transitional forms should utterly dominate the space, with terminal tips being far less common. On basic statistics, we should then expect an abundance of these transitions or “links.” The phrase, missing link, tells the tale instead.

For, the trade secret of paleontology, is the utter rarity of such forms, to the point where punctuated equilibria was a major school intended to explain that general absence. Where, Darwin, notoriously, noted the gaps but expected and predicted that on wider investigations they would go away. But now, after 150 years of searching, billions of fossils seen in situ, millions in museum back office drawers [only a relative few can be displayed] and over a quarter of a million fossil species, the pattern of gaps is very much still here, hot denials and dismissals notwithstanding. That is especially true of the Cambrian fossil life form revolution, where the major current body plans for animals pop up with nary an intermediate. So much so, that there have been significant efforts to make it disappear, obfuscating its significance.

We also have molecular islands of function, starting with protein fold domains. Thousands, scattered across the AA sequence space, no easy path connecting them. Even just homochirality soon accumulates into a serious search space challenge as molecules are complex and mirror image handedness is not energetically enforced, why racemic forms, 50-50 mixes of left and right handed molecules are what we tend to get in lab syntheses. This then gets more complicated where there are multiple isomers as Tour discusses.

In short, a real issue not a readily dismissible notion without significant empirical support.

And so forth.

U/D2 Nov 4: I just found where I had an image from p. 11 NFL, so observe:

ID researcher William A Dembski, NFL, p.11 on possibilities, target zones and events

Where, we can further illustrate the beach of function issue:

And, some remarks:

U/D 3 Nov 7: The all-revealing Eugenics Conference Logo from 1912 and 1921 showing how it was seen as a capstone of ever so many sciences and respected domains of knowledge, especially statistics, genetics, biology and medicine, even drawing on religion, with, politics, law, education, psychology, mental testing and sociology . . . menacingly . . . also being in the roots:

“Eugenics is the self-direction of human evolution”: Logo from the Second International Eugenics Conference, 1921, depicting Eugenics as a tree which unites a variety of different fields.

U/D 4, Nov 10: A reminder on cosmological fine tuning, from Luke Barnes:

Barnes: “What if we tweaked just two of the fundamental constants? This figure shows what the universe would look like if the strength of the strong nuclear force (which holds atoms together) and the value of the fine-structure constant (which represents the strength of the electromagnetic force between elementary particles) were higher or lower than they are in this universe. The small, white sliver represents where life can use all the complexity of chemistry and the energy of stars. Within that region, the small “x” marks the spot where those constants are set in our own universe.” (HT: New Atlantis)

U/D 5, Nov 12: As there is dismissiveness of the textual, coded information stored in DNA, it is necessary to show here a page clip from Lehninger, as a case in point of what should not even be a debated point:

For record.

U/D 6, Nov 14: The per aspect design inference explanatory filter shows how right in the core design inference, alternative candidate causes and their observational characteristics are highlighted:

Explanatory Filter

Again, for record.

Comments
has God designed all the covid variants?
This is a silly question. I doubt anyone here believes that. So why ask it? Every virus species/line of a species will vary over time. That’s normal. It’s part of the world chemistry. I haven’t been following the C19 virus for over a year, but the original was supposed to have a one in a gazillion spiked protein configuration that made it easier to enter the cell. Which indicates design. Are the so called variants different versions of the spiked protein? Or do they have the same spiked protein structure but different elsewhere? Or are just internal and surface proteins different as well as the spiked protein? No one here believes God is directing this.jerry
November 5, 2022
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VL at 150, You appear to want to hear only what you want to hear.relatd
November 5, 2022
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Relatd, I'm answering your questions: would you be willing to answer mine. My question: if it's either design or evolution, all or nothing, has God designed all the covid variants? re 148: I don't know how life originated. I am not a materialist, but I think my thoughts on what else there is that might operate in the universe to provide some structure to the development of life are so speculative and beyond the possibility of being investigated (that is, vague chosen faith beliefs) that there really is nothing I can say about them. You turn, please, to answer my question.Viola Lee
November 5, 2022
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An octopus using a shell. All "by accident"? I think not. https://www.sciencealert.com/scientists-think-theyve-cracked-the-mystery-of-the-argonaut-octopus-and-its-shellrelatd
November 5, 2022
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VL at 147, What is your explanation for the emergence of life on Earth?relatd
November 5, 2022
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About covid? Mutations occur occasionally for various reasons (reproduction is not perfect) which change various aspects of the virus, which then reproduces and produces numerous new viruses which are a variant of what existed before. How to you explain "designed"? Does God purposely make the changes that produce the variants?Viola Lee
November 5, 2022
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VL at 107, Tell me. What is your alternate explanation?relatd
November 5, 2022
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KF writes, “ he and others have repeatedly presented the case as if it were a representation of evolution sans design. The BBC Horizon programme was a case in point, and it is manifest that a widespread misrepresentation and false impression has happened. Just as in his book, Dawkins was clear in the BBC program you mention that his program was not an accurate model of evolution because it aimed at a known target. In the BBC program he said,
Although this is a fairly good model for Darwinism in that it is cumulative selection, in another way it’s really a bit of a cheat because this program is homing in on a distant target: it’s looking into the future. Real evolution is blind to the future.
The misrepresentation has come from those who have chosen to misrepresent his project, I think. But I gather that KF agrees with me about the description of what his program did: modeled cumulative selective, but used a selector that was like artificial breeding, not natural selection.Viola Lee
November 5, 2022
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KF: SG, I do not need to do more than note that beaver dams are quite complex and are adapted to the site and its water flow.
Thanks for admitting that you can’t calculate the FSCO/I of a beaver dam. And how many beaver dams have you actually seen in your life? And how many dams created by natural causes have you seen? In my area of the country they are both fairly common. And they both result in water impoundment. How much FSCO/I does a naturally created dam have?Sir Giles
November 5, 2022
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I do not need to do more than note that beaver dams are quite complex and are adapted to the site
https://mobile.twitter.com/NewhouseRescue/status/1582710493856219136 Built in from the get go.jerry
November 5, 2022
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SG, BTW, body plans need to be built from the ground up, starting with a unicellular organism. Genome size for that is 100 - 1,000+ k bases. . A calculation onward will give a lower bound for original multicellular body plans of 10 mn bases, a scan of genome sizes will say 100+ mn bases. And that has been pointed out any number of times. Where, note, 500 - 1,000 bases is a generous value for the threshold. Finally, to object to FSCO/I you are still creating FSCO/I by intelligently directed configuration. The questions at stake are before we have arthropods, vertebrates, ferns, flowering plants etc. KFkairosfocus
November 5, 2022
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VL, he and others have repeatedly presented the case as if it were a representation of evolution sans design. The BBC Horizon programme was a case in point, and it is manifest that a widespread misrepresentation and false impression has happened, never mind weasel words . . . itself, likely a clue. Someone who understood he was setting up a targetted search, that this was prone to misrepresentation and cared not to mislead would never have publicly offered this exercise. KFkairosfocus
November 5, 2022
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SG, I do not need to do more than note that beaver dams are quite complex and are adapted to the site and its water flow. Any reasonable person will instantly acknowledge that on seeing the patterns of such dams. Do an Autocad, reverse engineering of such a dam and we don't have to more than mention that to know such will greatly exceed 500 - 1,000 bits of complexity. Yet another failure to deliver on your insinuations. KFkairosfocus
November 5, 2022
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PM1, kindly specify an empirically supported, actually observed fourth alternative to chance and/or necessity and/or design -- intelligently directed configuration: _______ . Where, I believe you will find that trichotomy down the length of our civilisation, from Plato in The Laws Bk X, to Monod's Chance and Necessity. So, no, it is not Dembski. Indeed there is an interesting related discussion in Newton's General Scholium. KFkairosfocus
November 5, 2022
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Is there an example where artificial selection produces any thing new? Now I know the varieties that end up are different from the original but there is really just a shuffling of alleles going on and in some cases the loss of a coding sequence. The end result has less variation than the wild version. So is using artificial selection just misinformation in the sense that it appears something is being built when just the opposite is happening? Behe discusses this in his book”Darwin Devolves.” The concept of artificial selection undermines natural Evolution by natural selection. We can understand Darwin using it but not now or in recent years. So why would anyone invoke it when discussing Evolution? If not to deceive!jerry
November 5, 2022
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kf writes, "PPS, VL, thanks for the admission that Weasel showed design by artificial selection, not the advertised power of chance variation and natural selection. Dawkins used it to great rhetorical effect but grossly misled the public." There is no "admission" here, kf. I am saying exactly what Dawkins said in his book. The very first time he mentions the results, he writes, 'the program reached METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL in 41 generations of selective ‘breeding”” [My emphasis] On the next page, he wrote,
“Although the monkey/Shakespeare model is useful for explaining the distinction between single-step selection and cumulative selection, it is misleading in important ways. One of these is that, in each generation of selective ‘breeding’, the mutant 'progeny' phrases were judged according to the criterion of resemblance to a distant ideal target, the phrase METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL. Life isn't like that. Evolution has no long-term goal. There is no long-distance target,”
There is an important distinction between what he was trying to do (show that the presence of some selecting mechanism could produce results far differently than pure chance) and what he was NOT trying to do (having the selection mechanism he used be a model for the natural selection in the biological world.) He was perfectly clear that his program used a model for artificial selection to demonstrate the difference between pure chance and the presence of a selection mechanism. It was never intended to be a model for natural selection.Viola Lee
November 5, 2022
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KF: 6: Then, there is of course, show me FSCO/I by a non human. No response on the highly relevant case of Beavers, raised here over a decade ago. Side step correction again, part of the zero concession unacknowledged Dawkins policy.
I must have missed your FSCO/I calculation for a beaver dam. Could you paste it in response, or provide a link to it. And I notice that you are avoiding the evidence provided that significant changes in body plan do not require huge genetic changes.Sir Giles
November 5, 2022
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“emergence” is regarded with some suspicion at UD, but I think that the suspicion is itself suspect
Emergence is an explanation for when someone doesn't have an explanation. It is equivalent to it just happened but I have no idea how. The concept of "emergence" like a lot of words has some meaning for some things in reality. For example, the properties of water emerge from the physical properties of H and O2 when they are combined. Maybe it is possible to predict these properties but they obviously happened. So the term "emergence" does have some relevance in places. Otherwise, it is just a BS term to use for when there is no explanation. The suspected people are those who claim it has relevance. Asise: If something is emergent such as the properties of H and O2 and water, it would constantly happen. And it does in this and similar cases. But if something biological is emergent, then it too would have to continually happen. But there are no such examples.jerry
November 5, 2022
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@116
1: Admission that blind chance and/or mechanical necessity of the four forces is insufficient to account for either OoL or Oo body plans so he wishes to add further proposed laws. 2: Were such laws of bioform and bioinformation embedded in the cosmos, sufficient to get to OoL, you are looking at huge fine tuning of the cosmos, its physics, chemistry and thermodynamics. 3: This would be front loading design on steroids, unacknowledged of course. 4: Going on to forming body plans, we are again looking at front loading on steroids. 5: So, a design hypothesis without acknowledging the design aspect is now being used to object to design.
There's interpretation, and then there's overinterpretation. Firstly, and most importantly, it was always only Dembski's own setting up of the debate that positioned "design" as the only alternative to the conjunction of "chance and necessity". To accept this at the outset is to concede far too much to intelligent design than is warranted -- not least of which because this initial framing makes the Aristotelian position unintelligible. (It is helpful to recall that Aristotle's physics, biology, and metaphysics arise as alternatives to both Plato and to Epicurus.) In other words, no naturalist need concede that anything more than "blind chance and mechanical necessity" is necessary because the naturalist need not accept "blind chance and mechanical necessity" as framing her own position to begin with. Secondly, if it were the case that thermodynamics in this universe is biased so as to make the emergence of life highly likely (if not indeed inevitable under specific conditions!), that would be indicate fine-tuning but not front-loading. Front-loading says that all the information necessary to give rise to new organisms is already somehow present prior to the actual occurrence of those organisms. This is a basically Platonic metaphysics of biology that the naturalist need not accept if she can propose a workable account of emergence. I understand that "emergence" is regarded with some suspicion at UD, but I think that the suspicion is itself suspect. I think that emergence is not only required for any conceptually coherent naturalism, but is a fully defensible idea. Terry Deacon has a fascinating and I think basically correct account of emergence in his Incomplete Nature, which is admittedly a tough read. (A short summary of his metaphysics of emergence can be found here.) In any event, a metaphysics of emergence would allow Wagner to fully justify his claims about the emergence of specifically biological laws without any concession to "design".PyrrhoManiac1
November 5, 2022
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PPS, VL, thanks for the admission that Weasel showed design by artificial selection, not the advertised power of chance variation and natural selection. Dawkins used it to great rhetorical effect but grossly misled the public.kairosfocus
November 5, 2022
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The evasion games continue, I see. Sadly revealing. Lessee: 1: As easy as 1-2-3, points in order being turned into an excuse to pretend inability to follow, check. 2: An observation on how Weasel rewards gibberish text strings for increments closer to target suddenly is a mystery, check. 3: Oh it does not latch. But of course above I specifically noted
one, we had target loaded search that implied rewarding non functional configs for mere increments of proximity to target, thus design by active information. Two, a result of this was in fact imperfect latching that did sometimes slip [as can a bad, worn ratchet and pawl], but as the target was preloaded, it could go there in one step regardless of input. Three, this shows just how determined you are to push an agenda rather than seek what is warranted, a clear sign of ideological agenda.
. . . so it is obvious that we are seeing the Dawkins zero concessions to those ignorant, stupid . . . objectors to the oh so perfect evolutionary materialistic scientism and/or fellow travellers, check. 4: Meanwhile, we see the Wilson, Arte of Rhetorique dirty sidestep of correction on oh FSCO/I has no clear meaning, it cannot be measured, islands of function is an error, ID has no [testable] hypotheses etc. 5: Then of course, there is the point that to object, objectors are producing copious and obvious cases of functionally specific, complex organisation and/or associated information, namely s-t-r-i-n-g data structures expressing statements in English beyond a reasonable complexity threshold 500 - 1,000 bits, which of course shows that FSCO/I is perfectly measurable and that there is a strong readily tested prediction, that FSCO/I beyond this threshold will only be actually observed as coming from intelligently directed configuration. Which has trillions of successful tests . . . objectors are adding more in this thread . . . and zero failures. 6: Then, there is of course, show me FSCO/I by a non human. No response on the highly relevant case of Beavers, raised here over a decade ago. Side step correction again, part of the zero concession unacknowledged Dawkins policy. 7: Then, back to the general implied accusation, hardly any good reasoning. Corrected in the OP and side stepped again. 8: So, despite ever so many denials, what is going on in this thread shows that we are dealing, fundamentally with ideological talking point pushers, not serious and responsible discussion. Hence, my response that it is time to declare epistemological independence and set out to reform and recover a sound knowledge base. 9: But we are not quite finished, we had a bit of elephant hurling, with hidden theses of Wagner meant to dismiss the search challenge issue. Now, it turns out, Wagner came up here six years back. Here is News, citing Massimo Pigliucci at Nautilus:
Is evolutionary biology about to prove a two-millennia old metaphysical speculation? Or is metaphysics about to fundamentally change the way we look at biology? Andreas Wagner, a developmental biologist at the University of Zurich, argues for both theses. I’m not convinced. Just read the last two sentences of his 2014 book, Arrival of the Fittest: How Nature Innovates. They come in an epilogue, titled “Plato’s Cave.” “We are shedding new light on one of the most durable and fascinating subjects in all of philosophy,” he writes. “And we learn that life’s creativity draws from a source that is older than life, and perhaps older than time.” (Italics mine.) The source of this creativity, Wagner argues, is “nature’s libraries.” It’s a metaphor for an abstract storehouse of information that we can never physically encounter. “These libraries and texts,” he writes, “are concepts, mathematical concepts, touchable only by the mind’s eye.” This is Platonism, and Wagner’s not shy about admitting it. Are conceptual truths discovered, or invented? Platonists believe the former, and “Platonism,” Wagner writes, “has the upper hand in this debate.”
11: This already underscores my brief note above, we are actually clearly dealing with a cosmological front loading design hypothesis on the part of Wagner, just not properly disclosed as such. The overall conclusion is saddening but illuminating. We are not dealing with serious critique, but with ideological agenda pushing using dirty rhetorical tactics. KF PS, HN, thanks.kairosfocus
November 5, 2022
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I'll respond, although you asked AF. No. The Weasel program is not a good model for evolution because the target is predetermined and "known" by the program.Viola Lee
November 5, 2022
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AF - So does latching or the lack thereof have any relevance to the value of the weasel as a simulation of evolution? In either case the power of natural selection is being assumed rather than demonstrated.hnorman42
November 5, 2022
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Yep.Viola Lee
November 5, 2022
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Latching doesn’t need to happen.
Exactly. And there is no latching at all, not "quasi-latching", not "implicit latching" in Dawkins' Weasel program. I quoted Wesley Elsberry who confirmed with Dawkins in 2000 that his program did not fix letters that matched the target. HereAlan Fox
November 5, 2022
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Plus ça change, Viola. ;)Alan Fox
November 5, 2022
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re 117: Oh my goodness, I remember that very long discussion about the Weasel program and "latching", etc. That was 13 years ago! It was incredibly difficult to get some simple distinctions established.Viola Lee
November 5, 2022
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AF @ 120
Latching doesn’t happen. Target letters are retained (overwhelmingly often) because they are favoured by selection.
That was my point. Latching doesn't need to happen. With or without latching the being "favored by selection" is assumed rather than demonstrated.hnorman42
November 5, 2022
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Goodness me! Déjà-vu all over again! https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/the-simulation-wars/#comment-313084Alan Fox
November 5, 2022
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KF: Admission that blind chance and/or mechanical necessity of the four forces is insufficient to account for either OoL or Oo body plans so he wishes to add further proposed laws.
Don’t you ever get tired of being wrong. A 30 second google search on body plans found this. https://biology.ucsd.edu/about/news/article_020602.html And this https://www.nature.com/scitable/blog/accumulating-glitches/the_evolution_of_body_plans/ And this https://www.stowers.org/news/master-planned So, it appears that there is plenty of evidence suggesting that body plan changes can result from a small number of mutations.Sir Giles
November 5, 2022
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