Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

L&FP, 63: Do design thinkers, theists and the like “always” make bad arguments because they are “all” ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked?

Categories
Logic and Reason
rhetoric
Share
Facebook
Twitter/X
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Dawkins’ barbed blanket dismissiveness comes up far too often in discussions of the design inference and related themes. Rarely, explicitly, most often by implication of a far too commonly seen no concessions, selectively hyperskeptical policy that objectors to design too often manifest. It is time to set this straight.

First, we need to highlight fallacious, crooked yardstick thinking (as exposed by naturally straight and upright plumb-lines). And yes, that classical era work, the Bible, is telling:

Notice, a pivotal point here, is self-evident truths. Things, similar to 2 + 3 = 5:

Notoriously, Winston Smith in 1984 is put on the rack to break his mind to conform to The Party’s double-think. He is expected to think 2 + 2 = whatever The Party needs at the moment, suppressing the last twisted answer, believing that was always the case, while simultaneously he must know that manifestly 2 + 2 = 4 on pain of instant absurdity. This is of course a toy example but it exposes the way crooked yardstick thinking leads to chaos:

Of Lemmings, marches of folly and cliffs of self-falsifying absurdity . . .

(Yes, real lemmings do not act like that. But, humans . . . that’s a whole other story.)

So, now, let us turn to a recent barbed remark by one of our frequent objectors and my reply, laying out a frame of thought and inviting correction — dodged, of course:

KF, 120 in the Foundations thread: [[It is now clear that SG is unwilling to substantially back up the one liner insinuation he made at 84 above, try making a good argument. Accordingly, let me respond in outline, for record, to the general case, that people like us are ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked and the associated zero concessions, selectively hyperskeptical dismissiveness policy. Here, I will show the rational responsibility of the design inference and related ideas, views and approaches, for record and reference:

I will use steps of thought:

1: Reason, in general: Notice, supporters and fellow travellers of evolutionary materialistic scientism undermine the responsible, rational freedom required for reason to be credible. They tend to discount and discredit objectors, but in fact their arguments and assertions are self-referentially incoherent, especially reduction of mind to computationalism on a wetware substrate. Reppert is right to point out, following Haldane and others:

. . . let us suppose that brain state A [–> notice, state of a wetware, electrochemically operated computational substrate], which is token identical to the thought that all men are mortal, and brain state B, which is token identical to the thought that Socrates is a man, together cause the belief [–> concious, perceptual state or disposition] that Socrates is mortal. It isn’t enough for rational inference that these events be those beliefs, it is also necessary that the causal transaction be in virtue of the content of those thoughts . . . [But] if naturalism is true, then the propositional content is irrelevant to the causal transaction that produces the conclusion, and [so] we do not have a case of rational inference. In rational inference, as Lewis puts it, one thought causes another thought not by being, but by being seen to be, the ground for it. But causal transactions in the brain occur in virtue of the brain’s being in a particular type of state that is relevant to physical causal transactions.

2: This extends to Marx’s class/cultural conditioning, to Freud’s potty training etc, to Skinner’s operant conditioning , to claims my genes made me do it, and many more. So, irrationality and undermining of the credibility of reason are a general issue for such supporters and fellow travellers, it is unsurprising to see projection to the despised other (a notorious defence mechanism) and linked failure to engage self referentiality.

3: First principles of right reason: Classically, the core of reason starts with distinct identity, excluded middle, non contradiction. Something x is what it is i/l/o its core characteristics, nothing can be both x and not x in the same sense and circumstances, any y in W = {x| ~x} will be x, ~x, not both or neither. And more. Claimed quantum counter examples etc actually are rooted in reasoning that relies on such. And yes, there have been enough objections that this has come up and is in UD’s Weak Argument Correctives. We leave it to objectors like SG to tell us whether they acknowledge such first principles of right reason: _______ and explain why ________ .

4: Self evidence: There are arguments that, once we have enough experience and maturity to understand [a sometimes big if], will be seen as true, as necessarily true and as true on pain of immediate absurdities on attempted denial. That error exists is a good case in point, and if one is able to see that the attempt to deny objectivity of knowledge for a given reasonably distinct field of thought such as morals or history or reality [metaphysics], or the physical world, or external reality, or in general, etc, one is claiming to objectively know something about that field and so refutes oneself.

5: self referential incoherence and question begging: We just saw an example of how arguments and arguers can include themselves in the zone of reference of an argument in ways that undermine it, often by implying a contradiction. Such arguments defeat themselves. Question begging is different, it assumes, suggests or imposes what should be shown and for which there are responsible alternatives. Arguments can be question begging, and then may turn out to be self refuting.

6: Deduction, induction, abduction (inference to the best [current] explanation [IBE]) and weak-form knowledge: Deduction uses logical validity to chain from givens to conclusions, where if givens are so and the chain valid, conclusions must also be true. Absent errors of reasoning, the debate rapidly becomes one over why the givens. Induction, modern sense, is about degree of support for conclusions i/l/o evidence of various kinds as opposed to demonstration, statistics, history, science, etc are common contexts. Abduction, especially IBE, compares live option alternatives and what they imply, on factual adequacy, coherence and balance of explanatory power, to choose the best explanation so far. In this context weak sense common knowledge is warranted, credibly true (so, reliable) belief. Which, is open to correction or revision and extension.

7: Worldviews context: Why accept A? B. But why B? C, etc. We see that we face infinite regress, or circularity or finitely remote first plausibles . . . which, frame our faith points . . . as we set out to understand our world. Infinite regress is impossible to traverse in reasoning or in cause effect steps, so we set it aside, we are forced to have finitely remote start points to reasoning and believing, warranting and knowing — first plausibles that define our views of the world. Thus, we all live by faith, the question is which, why; so, whether it is rational/reasonable and responsible. Where, too, all serious worldview options bristle with difficulties, hence the point that philosophy is the discipline that studies hard, basic questions. Question begging circles are a challenge, answered through comparative difficulties across factual adequacy, coherence and balance of explanatory power: elegantly simple, neither ad hoc nor simplistic.

[Let’s add an illustration:]

A summary of why we end up with foundations for our worldviews, whether or not we would phrase the matter that way}

[or in Aristotle’s words:]

8: Failure of evolutionary materialistic scientism and fellow traveller views: It will be evident already, that, while institutionally and culturally dominant, evolutionary materialistic scientism and fellow travellers are profoundly and irretrievably incoherent. Yes, a view backed by institutions, power brokers in the academy, the education system and the media can be irretrievably, fatally cracked from its roots.

9: Logic of being (and of structure and quantity), also possible worlds: Ontology and her grand child, Mathematics, grow out of core philosophy, particularly distinct identity and consideration of possible worlds. A possible world, w, is a sufficiently complete description of how our world or another conceivable or even actual world is or may be; i.e. a cluster of core, world describing propositions. In that context, a candidate being or entity or even state of affairs, c, can be impossible of being [e.g. a Euclidean plane square circle] or possible. Possible beings may be contingent [actual in at least one possible world but not all] or necessary [present in every possible world]. We and fires are contingent, dependent for existence on many independent, prior factors; what begins or may cease of existence is contingent. Necessary beings are best seen as part of the fabric or framework for this or any possible world. We can show that distinct identity implies two-ness, thence 0, 1, 2. Ponder, W = {A|~A}, the partition is empty, 0, A is a unit, ~A is a complex unit, so we see 2. So, onward via von Neumann’s construction, the counting numbers N. Thence, Z, Q, R, C, R* etc in any w. This is what gives core Mathematics its universal power.

10: The basic credibility of the design inference: of course, we routinely recognise that many things show reliable signs of intelligently directed configuration as key cause, i.e. design. For example, objectors to the design inference often issue copious, complex text in English, beyond 500 to 1,000 bits of complexity. In the 70’s Orgel and Wicken identified a distinct and quantifiable phenomenon, functionally specific, complex organisation and/or associated information, which I often abbreviate FSCO/I. Organisation is there as things like a fishing reel [my favourite, e.g. the ABU 6500 CT] or a watch [Paley, do not overlook his self replicating watch thought exercise in Ch 2]

or an oil refinery or a computer program [including machine code]

Petroleum refinery block diagram illustrating FSCO/I in a process-flow system

or the cell’s metabolic process-flow network [including protein synthesis]

[with:]

Step by step protein synthesis in action, in the ribosome, based on the sequence of codes in the mRNA control tape (Courtesy, Wikipedia and LadyofHats)

[and:]

all can be described in a suitably compact string of Y/N questions, structured through description languages such as AutoCAD. The inference posits that, with trillions of cases under our belt, reliably, FSCO/I or its generalisation, CSI, will be signs of design as key cause. The controversies, as may be readily seen, are not for want of evidence or inability to define or quantify, but because this challenges the dominant evolutionary materialism and fellow travellers. Which, of course, long since failed through irretrievable self referential incoherence.
_____________________

So, challenge: let SG and/or others show where the above fails to be rational and responsible, if they can__________________ Prediction, aside from mere disagreement and/or dismissiveness, assertions, or the trifecta fallacy of red herrings, led away to strawmen soaked in ad hominems and set alight to cloud, confuse, poison and polarise the atmosphere, they will not be able to sustain a case for general failure to be rational and responsible.]]

The good argument challenge is duly open for response. END

U/D, Nov 4: As it seems certain objectors want to attack the descriptive metaphor, islands of function amidst seas of non function, let me put up here a couple of infographics I used some years ago to discuss this concept. But first, as the primary contexts have to do with protein synthesis and OoL, let me first put up Vuk Nicolic’s video illustrating just what is required for protein synthesis:

. . . and Dr James Tour’s summary presentation on OoL synthesis challenges:

Now, this is my framework for discussing islands of function:

. . . and, on associated active information:

Thus, we can discuss the Orgel-Wicken functionally specific, complex organisation and associated information concept, FSCO/I, similarly:

We see here the needle in a haystack, blind search challenge and how it is dominated by not the hill climbing on fitness functions that is commonly discussed but by the issue of arriving at shorelines of first function. Obviously and primarily, for origin of cell based life [cf. Tour] but also to move from that first unicellular body plan to others. Where, we can observe too that even within an island of function, incremental changes will be challenged by intervening valleys, tending to trap on a given peak or plateau.

But, what of the thesis, that there is in effect a readily accessible first functionality, incrementally connected to all major body plans, allowing unlimited, branching tree of life body plan level macro evolution?

The Smithsonian’s tree of life model, note the root in OOL

Obviously, this architecture implies such continuity. The first problem, obviously is the root and the plethora of speculations and debatable or even dubious syntheses that have been made into icons of the grand evolutionary narrative and taught as effective fact, already tell us something is wrong. A second clue is how the diagram itself implies that transitional forms should utterly dominate the space, with terminal tips being far less common. On basic statistics, we should then expect an abundance of these transitions or “links.” The phrase, missing link, tells the tale instead.

For, the trade secret of paleontology, is the utter rarity of such forms, to the point where punctuated equilibria was a major school intended to explain that general absence. Where, Darwin, notoriously, noted the gaps but expected and predicted that on wider investigations they would go away. But now, after 150 years of searching, billions of fossils seen in situ, millions in museum back office drawers [only a relative few can be displayed] and over a quarter of a million fossil species, the pattern of gaps is very much still here, hot denials and dismissals notwithstanding. That is especially true of the Cambrian fossil life form revolution, where the major current body plans for animals pop up with nary an intermediate. So much so, that there have been significant efforts to make it disappear, obfuscating its significance.

We also have molecular islands of function, starting with protein fold domains. Thousands, scattered across the AA sequence space, no easy path connecting them. Even just homochirality soon accumulates into a serious search space challenge as molecules are complex and mirror image handedness is not energetically enforced, why racemic forms, 50-50 mixes of left and right handed molecules are what we tend to get in lab syntheses. This then gets more complicated where there are multiple isomers as Tour discusses.

In short, a real issue not a readily dismissible notion without significant empirical support.

And so forth.

U/D2 Nov 4: I just found where I had an image from p. 11 NFL, so observe:

ID researcher William A Dembski, NFL, p.11 on possibilities, target zones and events

Where, we can further illustrate the beach of function issue:

And, some remarks:

U/D 3 Nov 7: The all-revealing Eugenics Conference Logo from 1912 and 1921 showing how it was seen as a capstone of ever so many sciences and respected domains of knowledge, especially statistics, genetics, biology and medicine, even drawing on religion, with, politics, law, education, psychology, mental testing and sociology . . . menacingly . . . also being in the roots:

“Eugenics is the self-direction of human evolution”: Logo from the Second International Eugenics Conference, 1921, depicting Eugenics as a tree which unites a variety of different fields.

U/D 4, Nov 10: A reminder on cosmological fine tuning, from Luke Barnes:

Barnes: “What if we tweaked just two of the fundamental constants? This figure shows what the universe would look like if the strength of the strong nuclear force (which holds atoms together) and the value of the fine-structure constant (which represents the strength of the electromagnetic force between elementary particles) were higher or lower than they are in this universe. The small, white sliver represents where life can use all the complexity of chemistry and the energy of stars. Within that region, the small “x” marks the spot where those constants are set in our own universe.” (HT: New Atlantis)

U/D 5, Nov 12: As there is dismissiveness of the textual, coded information stored in DNA, it is necessary to show here a page clip from Lehninger, as a case in point of what should not even be a debated point:

For record.

U/D 6, Nov 14: The per aspect design inference explanatory filter shows how right in the core design inference, alternative candidate causes and their observational characteristics are highlighted:

Explanatory Filter

Again, for record.

Comments
AF: What does “this” refer to?
A pot calling a kettle black.Sir Giles
November 5, 2022
November
11
Nov
5
05
2022
06:59 AM
6
06
59
AM
PDT
An example: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/ascertaining-non-function/#comment-330687Alan Fox
November 5, 2022
November
11
Nov
5
05
2022
06:58 AM
6
06
58
AM
PDT
Hnorman42
But it’s interesting. With latching you get to keep mutations that take you closer to the goal. Without latching – you don’t have to give up a favorable mutation until something as good or better comes along.
Latching doesn't happen. Target letters are retained (overwhelmingly often) because they are favoured by selection. The main criticism of Weasel, which Dawkins acknowledges in The Blind Watchmaker is that there is a target. Evolution in reality is not a search and there is no target. Anyway, the Weasel program has previously been discussed to death here in many previous threads. Whereas Dawkins later Biomorphs program has received little attention. Here is a PDF of Dawkins' 1988 paper The Evolution of Evolvability in case anyone is interested.Alan Fox
November 5, 2022
November
11
Nov
5
05
2022
06:53 AM
6
06
53
AM
PDT
Three, this shows just how determined you are to push an agenda rather than seek what is warranted, a clear sign of ideological agenda.
What does "this" refer to?Alan Fox
November 5, 2022
November
11
Nov
5
05
2022
06:40 AM
6
06
40
AM
PDT
AF - I will be able to write some more this evening about your last few comments. But I did want to make a quick point about latching that you mentioned in 113. Not exactly pertinent to the points we might have under contention but it is interesting. When I first read about the latching controversy I thought the process would locate the target about as quick without latching as with it. I had to walk through a simplified simulation with a few letters to see that this wasn't so. But it's interesting. With latching you get to keep mutations that take you closer to the goal. Without latching - you don't have to give up a favorable mutation until something as good or better comes along.hnorman42
November 5, 2022
November
11
Nov
5
05
2022
06:38 AM
6
06
38
AM
PDT
AF, one, we had target loaded search that implied rewarding non-functional configs for mere increments of proximity to target, thus design by active information.
I have no idea what you are referring to or who "we" is. In fact, I can't make any sense of the quoted statement. Can KF parse it into something more comprehensible?
Two, a result of this was in fact imperfect latching that did sometimes slip [as can a bad, worn ratchet and pawl], but as the target was preloaded, it could go there in one step regardless of input.
Ah, you mention imperfect latching. Déjà-vu!!! You are referring to Dawkins' Weasel program that you spent much time refusing to acknowledge that Weasel programs do not need to "latch" and Dawkins' version did not latch. Here is one UD thread: https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/dawkins-weasel-proximity-search-with-or-without-locking/ where many commenters went beyond the call of duty trying to explain to KF that Weasel did not need to and in fact did not "latch".Alan Fox
November 5, 2022
November
11
Nov
5
05
2022
06:36 AM
6
06
36
AM
PDT
PS, you link a promotional blurb, in key part:
In Arrival of the Fittest, renowned evolutionary biologist Andreas Wagner draws on over fifteen years of research to present the missing piece in Darwin's theory. Using experimental and computational technologies that were heretofore unimagined, he has found that adaptations are not just driven by chance, but by a set of laws that allow nature to discover new molecules and mechanisms in a fraction of the time that random variation would take.
Obvious points: 1: Admission that blind chance and/or mechanical necessity of the four forces is insufficient to account for either OoL or Oo body plans so he wishes to add further proposed laws. 2: Were such laws of bioform and bioinformation embedded in the cosmos, sufficient to get to OoL, you are looking at huge fine tuning of the cosmos, its physics, chemistry and thermodynamics. 3: This would be front loading design on steroids, unacknowledged of course. 4: Going on to forming body plans, we are again looking at front loading on steroids. 5: So, a design hypothesis without acknowledging the design aspect is now being used to object to design. Thanks for the general concession of the need for design. KFkairosfocus
November 5, 2022
November
11
Nov
5
05
2022
04:14 AM
4
04
14
AM
PDT
AF, one, we had target loaded search that implied rewarding non functional configs for mere increments of proximity to target, thus design by active information. Two, a result of this was in fact imperfect latching that did sometimes slip [as can a bad, worn ratchet and pawl], but as the target was preloaded, it could go there in one step regardless of input. Three, this shows just how determined you are to push an agenda rather than seek what is warranted, a clear sign of ideological agenda. So, too, we notice -- unsurprisingly now -- your studious evasion of the fact that to object to the readily observable phenomenon, FSCO/I and its ability to be measured, you are forced to give a case. Above, as pointed out, 1855 bits, a search challenge space of 2^1855 = 2.57*10^558, which is of course far beyond what the atomic and temporal resources of our sol system or observed cosmos could blindly search more than a negligible fraction of. As an intelligent designer, you probably tossed the comment off in a few minutes. The conclusion is, we are seeing the adapted JoHari window in action in which ideologues have taken claimed knowledge captive and because of power balances have imposed ideology under colours and ceremonies of knowledge. It is time to declare knowledge independence, and proceed to reformation that will rebuild the now compromised knowledge commons. KFkairosfocus
November 5, 2022
November
11
Nov
5
05
2022
04:03 AM
4
04
03
AM
PDT
https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/20821275-arrival-of-the-fittestAlan Fox
November 5, 2022
November
11
Nov
5
05
2022
12:48 AM
12
12
48
AM
PDT
I was surprised that she defended the Dawkins weasel simulation.
It was an elegant bit of programming for nearly forty years ago. Dawkins never pretended it demonstrates anything other than selection/variation iterations are faster than random guesses. One fun fact. There is/was no latching involved.Alan Fox
November 5, 2022
November
11
Nov
5
05
2022
12:41 AM
12
12
41
AM
PDT
...I still don’t see how anything she says bears on the question of how natural selection creates a function that requires coordination of multiple elements.
I don't follow. Selection winnows populations resulting in differential reproductive rates so that allele frequencies change over time. Or are you referring to models of the evolutionary process?Alan Fox
November 5, 2022
November
11
Nov
5
05
2022
12:33 AM
12
12
33
AM
PDT
F/N: A reminder, from Orgel:
living organisms are distinguished by their specified complexity. Crystals are usually taken as the prototypes of simple well-specified structures, because they consist of a very large number of identical molecules packed together in a uniform way. Lumps of granite or random mixtures of polymers are examples of structures that are complex but not specified. The crystals fail to qualify as living because they lack complexity; the mixtures of polymers fail to qualify because they lack specificity . . . . [HT, Mung, fr. p. 190 & 196:] These vague idea can be made more precise by introducing the idea of information. Roughly speaking, the information content of a structure is the minimum number of instructions needed to specify the structure.
[--> this is of course equivalent to the string of yes/no questions required to specify the relevant J S Wicken "wiring diagram" for the set of functional states, T, in the much larger space of possible clumped or scattered configurations, W, as Dembski would go on to define in NFL in 2002, also cf here, -- here and -- here -- (with here on self-moved agents as designing causes).]
One can see intuitively that many instructions are needed to specify a complex structure. [--> so if the q's to be answered are Y/N, the chain length is an information measure that indicates complexity in bits . . . ] On the other hand a simple repeating structure can be specified in rather few instructions.  [--> do once and repeat over and over in a loop . . . ] Complex but random structures, by definition, need hardly be specified at all . . . . Paley was right to emphasize the need for special explanations of the existence of objects with high information content, for they cannot be formed in nonevolutionary, inorganic processes [--> Orgel had high hopes for what Chem evo and body-plan evo could do by way of info generation beyond the FSCO/I threshold, 500 - 1,000 bits.] [The Origins of Life (John Wiley, 1973), p. 189, p. 190, p. 196.]
. . . and Wicken:
‘Organized’systems are to be carefully distinguished from ‘ordered’ systems. Neither kind of system is ‘random,’ but whereas ordered systems are generated according to simple algorithms [i.e. “simple” force laws acting on objects starting from arbitrary and common- place initial conditions and/or repetitive stepwise procedures] and therefore lack complexity, organized systems must be assembled element by element according to an [ --> originally . . . ] external ‘wiring diagram’ with a high information content . . . Organization, then, is functional complexity and carries information. It is non-random by design or by selection, rather than by the a priori necessity of crystallographic ‘order.’ [“The Generation of Complexity in Evolution: A Thermodynamic and Information-Theoretical Discussion,” Journal of Theoretical Biology, 77 (April 1979): p. 353, of pp. 349-65. (Emphases and notes added. Nb: “originally” is added to highlight that for self-replicating systems, the blue print can be built-in.)]
KFkairosfocus
November 4, 2022
November
11
Nov
4
04
2022
10:46 PM
10
10
46
PM
PDT
AF & VL et al, I have already drawn attention to the fatal self referentiality of showing how one uses the power of design to produce a quantifiable example of FSCO/I in trying to object to such. Manifestly, text in English is very different from the overwhelmingly dominant gibberish for random strings of ASCII text tr86j;kcryyipt5djkhydtlu or the equivalent of a stuck key sssssssssssssss.Onward, it is manifest that the zero concessions policy implies -- and one does not have to name or assert to imply -- that arguments are ignorant [your arguments consistently exhibit general failure] and at least stupid [you keep on arguing for this failed and dismissed FSCO/I etc] ; however, in fact you show both FSCO/I and the issue of tight constraint on valid structures relative to possible ones in the essential structure of objecting through English text. Thus we see self referentiality and projection, with all that carries with it. This shows crooked yardstick thinking at work in the objections to design that are being made above, and may exhibit ideological blinding through being in denial of the patent fact that your own objections exhibit quantifiable FSCO/I and its island of function nature. That you cannot bring yourselves to even that first level acknowledgement speaks volumes, pointing to Orwellian doublethink. And, trying to further project would simply compound the problem. The no concession policy fails. KF PS, a more reasonable approach would accept that many entities starting with Paley's watches etc do exhibit FSCO/I, that Dembski;s CSI is a reasonable extension or generalisation, whatever flaws or gaps one may identify in his formulation. Then, one may recognise that his 2005 equation, drawn out using I = - log p is in fact an info beyond a threshold metric, and that we may debate the threshold. Then, we may see that the coded algorithms in the D/RNA of the cell also exhibit FSCO/I. Then onward discussion would be on what best explains such on abductive principles.kairosfocus
November 4, 2022
November
11
Nov
4
04
2022
10:42 PM
10
10
42
PM
PDT
AF @57 I read through some of the link that you sent with comments by Elizabeth Liddle. A very interesting post. But I still don't see how anything she says bears on the question of how natural selection creates a function that requires coordination of multiple elements. I was surprised that she defended the Dawkins weasel simulation. That simulation beautifully demonstrates that natural selection can select for a highly contingent structure IF natural selection can select for a highly contingent structure. Not exactly meaningful. And the problem is acknowledged by non-ID people as well. The third way comes to mind. Also there's been a common saying about natural selection explaining the survival but not the arrival of the fittest.hnorman42
November 4, 2022
November
11
Nov
4
04
2022
10:07 PM
10
10
07
PM
PDT
Realtd: "So if there are billions of people agreeing with you, then that is how you come to the truth? If you are committed to materialism and random events, then what I wrote is nonsense to you.. I am not a materialist, and I didn't say billions of people agreed with me, or billions of people were materialists. Look again at what I actually wrote: "So if by “it’s either design or evolution” you mean it’s either God (the Catholic version) or materialism, I will say that these are not the only two perspectives, so even here “one is right and the other is wrong” is an inaccurate dichotomy: billions of people fall outside these two options.Viola Lee
November 4, 2022
November
11
Nov
4
04
2022
05:56 PM
5
05
56
PM
PDT
Following up, here. Realtd: all the various covid variants are designed - true?Viola Lee
November 4, 2022
November
11
Nov
4
04
2022
05:31 PM
5
05
31
PM
PDT
VL at 105, Billions of people again? Why is that important to you? Their opinion matters in this? Even the Quran describes the creative power of God, or were you unaware of this? So if there are billions of people agreeing with you, then that is how you come to the truth? If you are committed to materialism and random events, then what I wrote is nonsense to you. I will say this, The Church teaches that there is actual design in nature.relatd
November 4, 2022
November
11
Nov
4
04
2022
05:29 PM
5
05
29
PM
PDT
So what you present is a perspective of contrasting "theistic evolution" (TE), the religious belief that God is providentially present in all events, with materialism, the philosophical belief that, among others things, as we discussed in another thread, there is no teleological aspect or plan to events in nature. I can't argue against that because religious and philosophical beliefs such as those are beyond the reach of evidence. So if by "it's either design or evolution" you mean it's either God (the Catholic version) or materialism, I will say that these are not the only two perspectives, so even here "one is right and the other is wrong" is an inaccurate dichotomy: billions of people fall outside these two options.Viola Lee
November 4, 2022
November
11
Nov
4
04
2022
05:11 PM
5
05
11
PM
PDT
Relatd: The original Perry Mason. A fine TV show.
And the actor, Raymond Burr, was Canadian. And gay. But back then, coming out of the closet would be the death knell of an acting career. He event went as far as fabricating a non-existing marriage and wife.Sir Giles
November 4, 2022
November
11
Nov
4
04
2022
05:10 PM
5
05
10
PM
PDT
The original Perry Mason. A fine TV show.
You do realize he was a fictional character.Alan Fox
November 4, 2022
November
11
Nov
4
04
2022
05:05 PM
5
05
05
PM
PDT
The original Perry Mason. A fine TV show.relatd
November 4, 2022
November
11
Nov
4
04
2022
04:57 PM
4
04
57
PM
PDT
Why can’t we disagree with you reasonably?
I wonder that too. I blame Perry Mason. The US legal system, based on English Common Law, is adversarial. Many other countries adopt an inquisitorial system, where the facts (DNA evidence f'rinstance) are checked for admissibility prior to trial.Alan Fox
November 4, 2022
November
11
Nov
4
04
2022
04:52 PM
4
04
52
PM
PDT
VL at 98, Thank you for being so specific. IF a process occurred, it was entirely guided by God, infallibly. You are probably not used to seeing theology combining with science but I see no other way to put this. So, instead of a lengthy article, I will extract key points and link to the entire article. How do things happen? From part 69 of the document, Communion and Stewardship: "Divine causality can be active in a process that is both contingent and guided. Any evolutionary mechanism that is contingent can only be contingent because God made it so. An unguided evolutionary process – one that falls outside the bounds of divine providence – simply cannot exist because “the causality of God, Who is the first agent, extends to all being, not only as to constituent principles of species, but also as to the individualizing principles....It necessarily follows that all things, inasmuch as they participate in existence, must likewise be subject to divine providence” (Summa theologiae I, 22, 2)." I want to focus on this: "Any evolutionary mechanism that is contingent can only be contingent because God made it so." God made it so, not blind, unguided chance. That is key. Do you understand? Not chance, not random events, not "it happened by itself." Not evolution is a self-starting, self-operating engine. Do you understand? The Biology textbook presents evolution as this unguided thing that did so many things right that today we have human beings - by accident. Here is a quote from a Biology textbook: “By coupling [B]undirected, purposeless [/B]variation to the [B]blind, uncaring [/B]process of natural selection, [B]Darwin made theological or spiritual explanations of the life processes superfluous[/B].” ([I]Evolutionary Biology[/I], by Douglas J. Futuyma (3rd ed., Sinauer Associates Inc., 1998), p. 5.)" And another: “[B]Humans represent just one tiny, largely fortuitous, and late-arising twig[/B] on the enormously arborescent bush of life.” (Stephen J Gould quoted in Biology, by Peter H Raven & George B Johnson (5th ed., McGraw Hill, 1999), pg 15; (6th ed., McGraw Hill, 2000), pg. 16.)" "largely fortuitous" Is that how you regard the appearance of human beings on Earth? A fortuitous accident? Communion and Stewardship link: https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20040723_communion-stewardship_en.htmlrelatd
November 4, 2022
November
11
Nov
4
04
2022
04:40 PM
4
04
40
PM
PDT
AF, you continue to simply demonstrate the Dawkins no concessions policy...
I've not mentioned Dawkins.Alan Fox
November 4, 2022
November
11
Nov
4
04
2022
04:20 PM
4
04
20
PM
PDT
Relatd: You mean you think that every reproductive event is designed, and that there is absolutely no role for undesigned genetic changes and environmental interactions that change the distribution of characteristics in a population or organisms? Can you be more specific about exactly what is designed, and in what way evolution does not happen. Is this distinction between all the design that happens and all the evolution, none of what happens, perfectly clear and unambiguous?Viola Lee
November 4, 2022
November
11
Nov
4
04
2022
03:53 PM
3
03
53
PM
PDT
VL at 95, Black and white thinking applies here. I'm not referring to any other issues. By the way, a compromise is not possible. Something like half evolution and half Intelligent Design. The evidence is there for anyone to examine. However, as I've written elsewhere, the commitment here is not based on evidence but ideology.relatd
November 4, 2022
November
11
Nov
4
04
2022
03:05 PM
3
03
05
PM
PDT
Viola Lee: Your biggest flaw, it seems to me, is that you pretty thoroughly think that anyone who disagrees with your perspective is wrong (the implication being that you are right), and that everyone else is hyper-skeptical and all the other numerous derogatory adjectives you use to dismiss the views of people who disagree with you. This also is not ignorant, stupid, insane, or wicked, either explicitly or implicitly. I agree. Why can't we disagree with you reasonably?JVL
November 4, 2022
November
11
Nov
4
04
2022
02:40 PM
2
02
40
PM
PDT
Nothing is that simple, relatd. Such black-and-white thinking dichotomizes issues that are always more complicated and nuanced than that, and such dichotomization makes constructive dialog very difficult.Viola Lee
November 4, 2022
November
11
Nov
4
04
2022
02:35 PM
2
02
35
PM
PDT
VL at 92, Please consider that both sides can't be right.relatd
November 4, 2022
November
11
Nov
4
04
2022
01:55 PM
1
01
55
PM
PDT
KF: Other objectors who tried to pile on, ponder what you have now exposed about yourselves. KF
We have exposed ourselves to be astute observers and interpreters of evidence.Sir Giles
November 4, 2022
November
11
Nov
4
04
2022
01:09 PM
1
01
09
PM
PDT
1 … 13 14 15 16 17 … 19