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L&FP, 63: Do design thinkers, theists and the like “always” make bad arguments because they are “all” ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked?

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Dawkins’ barbed blanket dismissiveness comes up far too often in discussions of the design inference and related themes. Rarely, explicitly, most often by implication of a far too commonly seen no concessions, selectively hyperskeptical policy that objectors to design too often manifest. It is time to set this straight.

First, we need to highlight fallacious, crooked yardstick thinking (as exposed by naturally straight and upright plumb-lines). And yes, that classical era work, the Bible, is telling:

Notice, a pivotal point here, is self-evident truths. Things, similar to 2 + 3 = 5:

Notoriously, Winston Smith in 1984 is put on the rack to break his mind to conform to The Party’s double-think. He is expected to think 2 + 2 = whatever The Party needs at the moment, suppressing the last twisted answer, believing that was always the case, while simultaneously he must know that manifestly 2 + 2 = 4 on pain of instant absurdity. This is of course a toy example but it exposes the way crooked yardstick thinking leads to chaos:

Of Lemmings, marches of folly and cliffs of self-falsifying absurdity . . .

(Yes, real lemmings do not act like that. But, humans . . . that’s a whole other story.)

So, now, let us turn to a recent barbed remark by one of our frequent objectors and my reply, laying out a frame of thought and inviting correction — dodged, of course:

KF, 120 in the Foundations thread: [[It is now clear that SG is unwilling to substantially back up the one liner insinuation he made at 84 above, try making a good argument. Accordingly, let me respond in outline, for record, to the general case, that people like us are ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked and the associated zero concessions, selectively hyperskeptical dismissiveness policy. Here, I will show the rational responsibility of the design inference and related ideas, views and approaches, for record and reference:

I will use steps of thought:

1: Reason, in general: Notice, supporters and fellow travellers of evolutionary materialistic scientism undermine the responsible, rational freedom required for reason to be credible. They tend to discount and discredit objectors, but in fact their arguments and assertions are self-referentially incoherent, especially reduction of mind to computationalism on a wetware substrate. Reppert is right to point out, following Haldane and others:

. . . let us suppose that brain state A [–> notice, state of a wetware, electrochemically operated computational substrate], which is token identical to the thought that all men are mortal, and brain state B, which is token identical to the thought that Socrates is a man, together cause the belief [–> concious, perceptual state or disposition] that Socrates is mortal. It isn’t enough for rational inference that these events be those beliefs, it is also necessary that the causal transaction be in virtue of the content of those thoughts . . . [But] if naturalism is true, then the propositional content is irrelevant to the causal transaction that produces the conclusion, and [so] we do not have a case of rational inference. In rational inference, as Lewis puts it, one thought causes another thought not by being, but by being seen to be, the ground for it. But causal transactions in the brain occur in virtue of the brain’s being in a particular type of state that is relevant to physical causal transactions.

2: This extends to Marx’s class/cultural conditioning, to Freud’s potty training etc, to Skinner’s operant conditioning , to claims my genes made me do it, and many more. So, irrationality and undermining of the credibility of reason are a general issue for such supporters and fellow travellers, it is unsurprising to see projection to the despised other (a notorious defence mechanism) and linked failure to engage self referentiality.

3: First principles of right reason: Classically, the core of reason starts with distinct identity, excluded middle, non contradiction. Something x is what it is i/l/o its core characteristics, nothing can be both x and not x in the same sense and circumstances, any y in W = {x| ~x} will be x, ~x, not both or neither. And more. Claimed quantum counter examples etc actually are rooted in reasoning that relies on such. And yes, there have been enough objections that this has come up and is in UD’s Weak Argument Correctives. We leave it to objectors like SG to tell us whether they acknowledge such first principles of right reason: _______ and explain why ________ .

4: Self evidence: There are arguments that, once we have enough experience and maturity to understand [a sometimes big if], will be seen as true, as necessarily true and as true on pain of immediate absurdities on attempted denial. That error exists is a good case in point, and if one is able to see that the attempt to deny objectivity of knowledge for a given reasonably distinct field of thought such as morals or history or reality [metaphysics], or the physical world, or external reality, or in general, etc, one is claiming to objectively know something about that field and so refutes oneself.

5: self referential incoherence and question begging: We just saw an example of how arguments and arguers can include themselves in the zone of reference of an argument in ways that undermine it, often by implying a contradiction. Such arguments defeat themselves. Question begging is different, it assumes, suggests or imposes what should be shown and for which there are responsible alternatives. Arguments can be question begging, and then may turn out to be self refuting.

6: Deduction, induction, abduction (inference to the best [current] explanation [IBE]) and weak-form knowledge: Deduction uses logical validity to chain from givens to conclusions, where if givens are so and the chain valid, conclusions must also be true. Absent errors of reasoning, the debate rapidly becomes one over why the givens. Induction, modern sense, is about degree of support for conclusions i/l/o evidence of various kinds as opposed to demonstration, statistics, history, science, etc are common contexts. Abduction, especially IBE, compares live option alternatives and what they imply, on factual adequacy, coherence and balance of explanatory power, to choose the best explanation so far. In this context weak sense common knowledge is warranted, credibly true (so, reliable) belief. Which, is open to correction or revision and extension.

7: Worldviews context: Why accept A? B. But why B? C, etc. We see that we face infinite regress, or circularity or finitely remote first plausibles . . . which, frame our faith points . . . as we set out to understand our world. Infinite regress is impossible to traverse in reasoning or in cause effect steps, so we set it aside, we are forced to have finitely remote start points to reasoning and believing, warranting and knowing — first plausibles that define our views of the world. Thus, we all live by faith, the question is which, why; so, whether it is rational/reasonable and responsible. Where, too, all serious worldview options bristle with difficulties, hence the point that philosophy is the discipline that studies hard, basic questions. Question begging circles are a challenge, answered through comparative difficulties across factual adequacy, coherence and balance of explanatory power: elegantly simple, neither ad hoc nor simplistic.

[Let’s add an illustration:]

A summary of why we end up with foundations for our worldviews, whether or not we would phrase the matter that way}

[or in Aristotle’s words:]

8: Failure of evolutionary materialistic scientism and fellow traveller views: It will be evident already, that, while institutionally and culturally dominant, evolutionary materialistic scientism and fellow travellers are profoundly and irretrievably incoherent. Yes, a view backed by institutions, power brokers in the academy, the education system and the media can be irretrievably, fatally cracked from its roots.

9: Logic of being (and of structure and quantity), also possible worlds: Ontology and her grand child, Mathematics, grow out of core philosophy, particularly distinct identity and consideration of possible worlds. A possible world, w, is a sufficiently complete description of how our world or another conceivable or even actual world is or may be; i.e. a cluster of core, world describing propositions. In that context, a candidate being or entity or even state of affairs, c, can be impossible of being [e.g. a Euclidean plane square circle] or possible. Possible beings may be contingent [actual in at least one possible world but not all] or necessary [present in every possible world]. We and fires are contingent, dependent for existence on many independent, prior factors; what begins or may cease of existence is contingent. Necessary beings are best seen as part of the fabric or framework for this or any possible world. We can show that distinct identity implies two-ness, thence 0, 1, 2. Ponder, W = {A|~A}, the partition is empty, 0, A is a unit, ~A is a complex unit, so we see 2. So, onward via von Neumann’s construction, the counting numbers N. Thence, Z, Q, R, C, R* etc in any w. This is what gives core Mathematics its universal power.

10: The basic credibility of the design inference: of course, we routinely recognise that many things show reliable signs of intelligently directed configuration as key cause, i.e. design. For example, objectors to the design inference often issue copious, complex text in English, beyond 500 to 1,000 bits of complexity. In the 70’s Orgel and Wicken identified a distinct and quantifiable phenomenon, functionally specific, complex organisation and/or associated information, which I often abbreviate FSCO/I. Organisation is there as things like a fishing reel [my favourite, e.g. the ABU 6500 CT] or a watch [Paley, do not overlook his self replicating watch thought exercise in Ch 2]

or an oil refinery or a computer program [including machine code]

Petroleum refinery block diagram illustrating FSCO/I in a process-flow system

or the cell’s metabolic process-flow network [including protein synthesis]

[with:]

Step by step protein synthesis in action, in the ribosome, based on the sequence of codes in the mRNA control tape (Courtesy, Wikipedia and LadyofHats)

[and:]

all can be described in a suitably compact string of Y/N questions, structured through description languages such as AutoCAD. The inference posits that, with trillions of cases under our belt, reliably, FSCO/I or its generalisation, CSI, will be signs of design as key cause. The controversies, as may be readily seen, are not for want of evidence or inability to define or quantify, but because this challenges the dominant evolutionary materialism and fellow travellers. Which, of course, long since failed through irretrievable self referential incoherence.
_____________________

So, challenge: let SG and/or others show where the above fails to be rational and responsible, if they can__________________ Prediction, aside from mere disagreement and/or dismissiveness, assertions, or the trifecta fallacy of red herrings, led away to strawmen soaked in ad hominems and set alight to cloud, confuse, poison and polarise the atmosphere, they will not be able to sustain a case for general failure to be rational and responsible.]]

The good argument challenge is duly open for response. END

U/D, Nov 4: As it seems certain objectors want to attack the descriptive metaphor, islands of function amidst seas of non function, let me put up here a couple of infographics I used some years ago to discuss this concept. But first, as the primary contexts have to do with protein synthesis and OoL, let me first put up Vuk Nicolic’s video illustrating just what is required for protein synthesis:

. . . and Dr James Tour’s summary presentation on OoL synthesis challenges:

Now, this is my framework for discussing islands of function:

. . . and, on associated active information:

Thus, we can discuss the Orgel-Wicken functionally specific, complex organisation and associated information concept, FSCO/I, similarly:

We see here the needle in a haystack, blind search challenge and how it is dominated by not the hill climbing on fitness functions that is commonly discussed but by the issue of arriving at shorelines of first function. Obviously and primarily, for origin of cell based life [cf. Tour] but also to move from that first unicellular body plan to others. Where, we can observe too that even within an island of function, incremental changes will be challenged by intervening valleys, tending to trap on a given peak or plateau.

But, what of the thesis, that there is in effect a readily accessible first functionality, incrementally connected to all major body plans, allowing unlimited, branching tree of life body plan level macro evolution?

The Smithsonian’s tree of life model, note the root in OOL

Obviously, this architecture implies such continuity. The first problem, obviously is the root and the plethora of speculations and debatable or even dubious syntheses that have been made into icons of the grand evolutionary narrative and taught as effective fact, already tell us something is wrong. A second clue is how the diagram itself implies that transitional forms should utterly dominate the space, with terminal tips being far less common. On basic statistics, we should then expect an abundance of these transitions or “links.” The phrase, missing link, tells the tale instead.

For, the trade secret of paleontology, is the utter rarity of such forms, to the point where punctuated equilibria was a major school intended to explain that general absence. Where, Darwin, notoriously, noted the gaps but expected and predicted that on wider investigations they would go away. But now, after 150 years of searching, billions of fossils seen in situ, millions in museum back office drawers [only a relative few can be displayed] and over a quarter of a million fossil species, the pattern of gaps is very much still here, hot denials and dismissals notwithstanding. That is especially true of the Cambrian fossil life form revolution, where the major current body plans for animals pop up with nary an intermediate. So much so, that there have been significant efforts to make it disappear, obfuscating its significance.

We also have molecular islands of function, starting with protein fold domains. Thousands, scattered across the AA sequence space, no easy path connecting them. Even just homochirality soon accumulates into a serious search space challenge as molecules are complex and mirror image handedness is not energetically enforced, why racemic forms, 50-50 mixes of left and right handed molecules are what we tend to get in lab syntheses. This then gets more complicated where there are multiple isomers as Tour discusses.

In short, a real issue not a readily dismissible notion without significant empirical support.

And so forth.

U/D2 Nov 4: I just found where I had an image from p. 11 NFL, so observe:

ID researcher William A Dembski, NFL, p.11 on possibilities, target zones and events

Where, we can further illustrate the beach of function issue:

And, some remarks:

U/D 3 Nov 7: The all-revealing Eugenics Conference Logo from 1912 and 1921 showing how it was seen as a capstone of ever so many sciences and respected domains of knowledge, especially statistics, genetics, biology and medicine, even drawing on religion, with, politics, law, education, psychology, mental testing and sociology . . . menacingly . . . also being in the roots:

“Eugenics is the self-direction of human evolution”: Logo from the Second International Eugenics Conference, 1921, depicting Eugenics as a tree which unites a variety of different fields.

U/D 4, Nov 10: A reminder on cosmological fine tuning, from Luke Barnes:

Barnes: “What if we tweaked just two of the fundamental constants? This figure shows what the universe would look like if the strength of the strong nuclear force (which holds atoms together) and the value of the fine-structure constant (which represents the strength of the electromagnetic force between elementary particles) were higher or lower than they are in this universe. The small, white sliver represents where life can use all the complexity of chemistry and the energy of stars. Within that region, the small “x” marks the spot where those constants are set in our own universe.” (HT: New Atlantis)

U/D 5, Nov 12: As there is dismissiveness of the textual, coded information stored in DNA, it is necessary to show here a page clip from Lehninger, as a case in point of what should not even be a debated point:

For record.

U/D 6, Nov 14: The per aspect design inference explanatory filter shows how right in the core design inference, alternative candidate causes and their observational characteristics are highlighted:

Explanatory Filter

Again, for record.

Comments
Why should I refrain? You and many others have no doubts the design inference has a solid basis, so why aren't you interested in what further issues follow?Viola Lee
November 11, 2022
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VL, I suggest that you refrain from speculation on a design-er until the issue of why a design inference has a basis is addressed. KFkairosfocus
November 11, 2022
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JVL writes, "Maybe us [we] humans are not the ultimate goal!" This is an important point. If the designer has taken all these billions of years to produce the current state of the earth and life on it, it seems likely that this particular moment is not the culmination towards which it has been aiming.Viola Lee
November 11, 2022
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JVL, I clip and comment: >>Obviously. Are we on another round of condescension? Sigh.>> 1- Merited correction is not "condescension," which is here exposed as the fallacy of subtly poisoning the well from the outset. 2- It would seem, however that the "Sigh" implies confession by your projection to the despised other, cf. the Dawkins quadrilemma in the OP. >>What was the first type of life on Earth do you think?>> 3- I do not need to answer this, I simply point to the only actually observed architecture of biological life and request an observationally anchored accounting of its origin. 4- The rhetoric of poisoning the well, distraction and evasion tells us, there is still no answer, there is no root for the darwinist tree of life so the tree is cut off from its root. >>Do you think chemical reactions are random?>> 5- There is a lot of thermodynamic randomness involved in chemistry, start with entropy viewed through Gibbs free energy or even just what temperature is an index of. 6- In the primary sense though, chemistry has no foresight and naturally favours the thermodynamically downhill. The complex chemistry of cell based life is decidedly uphill, just start from how one goes from racemic forms to homochirality and linked key lock fitting chemistry. 7- Of course all of this is evasive of what Dr Tour outlines in the vid in the OP and has elaborated at length. That needs to be cogently answered and it has not, despite the rhetoric he has been forced to rebut. >> Do you suppose that maybe the first basic replicator>> 8- An assumed, never observed, but evidently energetically uphill species that is dubious narrative 9- What is actually observed and makes sense is the centrality of homeostasis, manifested in metabolic automata with encapsulation and smart gating with built in von Neumann kinematic self replicator facilities, something that is manifestly best explained on careful knowing synthesis and assembly by deeply knowledgeable intelligently directed configuration. 10- You know that I am on repeated record here that building on Venter et al, I expect we will be there within 100 years, and of course Venter et al are living proof that molecular nanotech is real. >> came about because of natural, unguided chemical processes?>> 11- Apart from requisites of the blind watchmaker style narrative, what actually directly observed base leads you to speak of this mythical beastie as though it were a fact, produced as you imply? >>Once you have a basic self-replicator>> 12- Fallacy of galloping hypotheses posing onward as facts. >> you are in an area of function.>> 13- The unanswered problem is how to get there by blind watchmaker means rooted in actual observed capability. >> That life and all its descendants stay in that area of functionality.>> 14- Continent of function hyp, assumed as if it were a fact by side stepping the issue of fine tuning, which, recall, Weasel exhibits. See 185 above. >> They have to otherwise common descent doesn’t exist.>> 15- the herd of galloping hypotheses is growing. >>You think common descent doesn’t exist.>> 16- I think it has never been shown to be feasible on actually observed means, cf again Lyell:
PRINCIPLES OF GEOLOGY: BEING AN INQUIRY HOW FAR THE FORMER CHANGES OF THE EARTH’S SURFACE ARE REFERABLE TO CAUSES NOW IN OPERATION. [--> appeal to Newton's Rules, in the title of the work] BY CHARLES LYELL, Esq, F.R.S. PRESIDENT OF THE GEOLOGICAL SOCIETY OF LONDON . . . JOHN MURRAY , , , 1835 [--> later, publisher of Origin]
17- Common design with adaptation and extension to relevant niches makes better sense and is consistent with the fine tuning/ island of function pattern that naturally emerges from requisites of complex configuration based function. 18- What I or you believe, I would not pay 50c for, that is irrelevant; the issue is, what is warranted on actually observed causal factors and thus sets up inference to empirically controlled best current explanations. 19- In that context, limited common descent as a product of built in robustness via adaptability makes a lot of sense. Given the debates on taxonomy and interfertility across various taxa I suggest the Family or thereabouts as a good level for basic body plan design, cats and dogs and the like. 20- Coming up from the origin, I suggest the main body plans, starting with the cell and going through top level taxa are pivotal. >>Therefore you think your designer>> 20- Neither Thaxton et al nor me have ever asserted that on body plan patterns etc we can infer a single design-ER of life forms. This is a strawman caricature. 21- What can be seen is, evidence of design, intelligently directed configuration, a process. 22- Lifting up to the fine tuned cosmos we can see starting with setting up elemental abundances, setting up operating points for C-Chem, aqueous medium, terrestrial planet in galactic habitable zone cell based life. 23- A cosmos architect and builder could serve as sole designer or as team lead or could stand back and let Venter's antecedents do the job in our sol system or other odder scenarios, for this context I don't care which. >> had to keep tweaking their lifeforms to eventually get to humans.>> 24- Strawman caricature and implicit dismissal of the fine tuning implicit in FSCO/I issue, without having to actually address it on the merits. 25- Q, again, has a point about patterns of evasive, distractive rhetoric. >> That’s about it isn’t it?>> 26- Strawman set alight to burn and cloud the issue. >> Humans were the goal, life wasn’t getting there on its own>> 27- A forest of strawmen burning away, with copious clouds of smoke. >> so, in order for the ultimate breeding programme to reach its successful conclusion, the designer had to keep sticking their oar in.>> 28- More burning and smoke. >> Over billions of years.>> 29- Even more clouding smoke. >> Until they got it right.>> 29- Yet more. >>How’s that for your hypothesis of intelligent design?>> 30- You know full well this is not the design inference on signs or theory, but such is not likely to be recognised by many, behind all the smoke from burning strawmen. 31- Willful misrepresentation in the face of readily accessible evidence and explanation to the contrary. >> Did I get anything wrong there?>> 32- Yes, by willful misrepresentation, beyond mere strawman fallacies. >> The designer is a tinkerer.>> 33- Doubling down on misrepresentation. >> Too bad a lot of really nasty diseases got created along the way. Oh well. Too bad the planet ain’t exactly stable so there are hurricanes and fires and earthquakes and sunamis and volcanos and lots of other things that kill plants and animals. Oh well. Too bad human beings like to kill each other so much, free will, what can you do?>> 34- Compounding misrepresentation by attempts to emotively appeal to the failed problem of evils. >> Maybe if the designer tinkered a bit more they could figure out some of those problems. Maybe they’re tinkering right now! Maybe us humans are not the ultimate goal! >> 35- This now verges on agitprop, not argument. >>Which is why it doesn’t matter how many of us get sick or die in some horrible natural disaster! Gosh, that kind of makes sense you know. We’re not ‘it’. We’re just a transitional species. I like it.>> 36- And so forth. 37- Summary, a grand squid ink cloud, behind which the squid hopes to escape. Fail. KFkairosfocus
November 11, 2022
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Q, you of course have a valid point. Over the years, this is how I have more or less summed up the Darwinist mechanisms, slightly updated:
1: Chance variation [CV] + fitness slope [FS] --> differential reproductive success [DRS] 2: DRS + time [T] --> descent with modification [DWM] 3: DWM + grand continent of fitness niches [GCFN] --> lines of descent with unlimited modification [LDUM] 4: LDUM + grand scale time [GST] --> branching tree evolution of body plans [BTEBP's]
I comment: a: Notice, to enter this framework, one needs to have a metabolic automaton, with encapsulation, smart gating and a built in von Neumann kinematic self replicator, the cell or something comparable. b: However, such is chock full of FSCO/I, including coded algorithms used to synthesise proteins including enzymes. c: There is no actually observed physical-chemical basis for believing that such can happen spontaneously by blind chance and/or mechanical necessity, all at once or cumulatively _______________ SUB CONCLUSION [SC] I: OoL is the first, decisive barrier to the grand, lab coat clad, evolutionary narrative [GL2CEN]. SC II: To surmount this barrier, proponents of GL2CEN per SC I, are forced to suppress the Newton rule that proposed causes for traces of the unobserved remote present or past, must first be shown to have actual capability to produce the result. SCIII: In particular, they are forced to deny that there is functionally specific, complex organisation and/or information [FSCO/I, cf. Orgel and Wicken in the 70s] and/or that it is an observable, measurable quantity that beyond 500 - 1,000 bits is not plausibly the product of blind chance and/or mechanical necessity. SC IV: Meanwhile, the very text of their objections is measurable FSCO/I, readily distinguishable from typical random gibberish y8uuiryst or what a stuck key would do ssssssssss so their objections are inherently self referentially incoherent. SC V: Likewise, they are forced to deny that the constraints of sufficiently complex, configuration based function -- such as text, fishing reels, petroleum refineries, etc, much less von Neumann kinematic self replicators -- sharply constrain us to the right parts, matched to one another, properly oriented, correctly organised and coupled together, exhibiting fine tuning thus locally isolated operating point zones of function surrounded by seas of non functional disorganisation, aka islands of function. SC VI: Then, they are forced to infer a vast continent of readily accessible function that provides well behaved slopes to facilitate hill climbing and diversification. For which, there is no actual observed basis, it is a hidden premise of a narrative. =================== GENERAL CONCLUSION: Crooked yardstick thinking. KFkairosfocus
November 11, 2022
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Kairosfocus: On the Darwin pond etc scenario, those environments are not going to be there. Obviously. Are we on another round of condescension? Sigh. What was the first type of life on Earth do you think? to get hill climbing one has to first find shorelines of function deeply isolated in a configuration space dominated by non functional gibberish/disorganisation. Do you think chemical reactions are random? Do you suppose that maybe the first basic replicator came about because of natural, unguided chemical processes? highlighted in the updated OP once objectors went there, is that “cumulative selection” is local and dependent on fine tuning that puts one on shorelines of function. Once you have a basic self-replicator you are in an area of function. That life and all its descendants stay in that area of functionality. They have to otherwise common descent doesn't exist. You think common descent doesn't exist. Therefore you think your designer had to keep tweaking their lifeforms to eventually get to humans. That's about it isn't it? Humans were the goal, life wasn't getting there on its own so, in order for the ultimate breeding programme to reach its successful conclusion, the designer had to keep sticking their oar in. Over billions of years. Until they got it right. How's that for your hypothesis of intelligent design? Did I get anything wrong there? The designer is a tinkerer. Too bad a lot of really nasty diseases got created along the way. Oh well. Too bad the planet ain't exactly stable so there are hurricanes and fires and earthquakes and sunamis and volcanos and lots of other things that kill plants and animals. Oh well. Too bad human beings like to kill each other so much, free will, what can you do? Maybe if the designer tinkered a bit more they could figure out some of those problems. Maybe they're tinkering right now! Maybe us humans are not the ultimate goal! Which is why it doesn't matter how many of us get sick or die in some horrible natural disaster! Gosh, that kind of makes sense you know. We're not 'it'. We're just a transitional species. I like it.JVL
November 11, 2022
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JVL, did you notice that I highlighted thermodynamics? As has been on the table since Thaxton et al, or currently Tour, the requisite chemicals unless protected, are rapidly degraded by the environment. That is part of why the cell is encapsulated, smart gated, organised and uses enzymes as targetted catalysts -- climbing the energy hill, and creating protective homeostasis. On the Darwin pond etc scenario, those environments are not going to be there. Your thousands, millions or billions of years, even on observable cosmos scale, are irrelevant. But then we know that ever so many have been rhetorically immunised on such, by precisely the intent and techniques Dawkins championed in The Blind Watchmaker. Of which, weasel is an icon. That is a part of why I have directly focused on the coded algorithms central to protein synthesis, pointing out that this is manifestly linguistic and goal directed; strong signs of intelligently directed configuration that would normally be readily recognised in an information age. The denialism of the manifest on this is symptomatic of a deeper problem, crooked yardstick thinking. And Q also has a serious point, to get hill climbing one has to first find shorelines of function deeply isolated in a configuration space dominated by non functional gibberish/disorganisation. The direct result, highlighted in the updated OP once objectors went there, is that "cumulative selection" is local and dependent on fine tuning that puts one on shorelines of function. Which is what 185 points out is the case for Weasel, something you refuse to acknowledge is an issue. KFkairosfocus
November 11, 2022
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Querius (comment 331): You might also be interested in this segment about the mathematical impossibility of random mutations resulting in design, which I just stumbled across. Doesn't sound like you're accounting for cumulative selection here. Maybe you are but it's not clear. Darwinian evolution begins with random mutations as I detailed here: Again, you emphasise random mutations without mentioning cumulative selection. Notice that I’d written that the theory of evolution BEGINS WITH random mutation. It’s like JVL never bothered to read and respond to what I’d actually written instead of just making things up. Yes, I did read what you wrote and, yes, you continually focus on random mutations and leave out cumulative selection. The number of identical changes required for fixing a variation in a population. What do you mean? Sometimes it only take one change which is then handed down to offspring. You ask questions which make it sound like you don't understand how things work. The maximum rate of random mutations. Measured how? Against what? The estimated reproductive advantage of organisms with a particular mutation over those without it. Really? Again, please be clearer. Do you mean the estimated average against all possible single point mutations? Notice that my alleged “poor interpretations” of the statements from the University of California website on evolution are conspicuously absent. Anyone can copy and paste but did you actually understand what you copied? I'm not so sure. The things you think we should know are poorly stated and confusing. I predict you will continue to argue about minutiae and gloss over your misunderstandings and misinterpretations thinking you're being very profound and insightful.JVL
November 10, 2022
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Also notice that Sir Giles responds with classic infantile trollbot clichés:
I will believe it when I see it. I knew it was too good to be true.
As I previously wrote, here's how one can easily identify trollbot blather:
1. Try applying them to any person discussing any topic.See whether they’re generic enough to fit. 2. See whether they contain any new supporting evidence or whether they’re simply unsupported assertions. 3. See whether they’re inflammatory or gross exaggerations designed to provoke a similar response. 4. Assess the “signal to noise ratio” of cogent logic to vacuous emotion.
Such trollbot responses rank right up there with: * It takes one to know one. * I said it first. * Not. * What's your definition of (common term). * My dog is bigger than your dog. -QQuerius
November 10, 2022
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Looks like JVL didn't bother to reply to the actual substance of my reply, nor respond with a single supported assertion.
JVL: NO ONE ever claimed that random mutations alone could account for developed life as we see it on Earth. Why are you attacking something that no one ever said?
Huh? I'm not attacking anything "that no one said." Darwinian evolution begins with random mutations as I detailed here:
Querius: It’s important to understand the terms your using in a more scientific context. Here’s evolutionary randomness as explained on a University of California Berkeley website: random Unpredictable in some way. Mutations are “random” in the sense that the sort of mutation that occurs cannot generally be predicted based upon the needs of the organism. However, this does not imply that all mutations are equally likely to occur or that mutations happen without any physical cause. Indeed, some regions of the genome are more likely to sustain mutations than others, and various physical causes (e.g., radiation) are known to cause particular types of mutations. https://evolution.berkeley.edu/glossary/random/ Mutations are random The mechanisms of evolution — like natural selection and genetic drift — work with the random variation generated by mutation. Factors in the environment are thought to influence the rate of mutation but are not generally thought to influence the direction of mutation. For example, exposure to harmful chemicals may increase the mutation rate, but will not cause more mutations that make the organism resistant to those chemicals. In this respect, mutations are random — whether a particular mutation happens or not is generally unrelated to how useful that mutation would be. https://evolution.berkeley.edu/mutations-are-random/ variation Differences in genes, traits, or behaviors among members of a population, which may result in differences in reproductive success. When variation is genetic in origin, it may be acted upon by natural selection. https://evolution.berkeley.edu/glossary/variation/ natural selection Differential survival or reproduction of different genotypes in a population leading to changes in the gene frequencies of a population. The conditions required for the operation of evolution by natural selection include variation, a system of heredity, differential reproduction, and time. For a more detailed explanation, see our resource on natural selection in Evolution 101. https://evolution.berkeley.edu/glossary/natural-selection/
I continued with
So, I hope you can understand the primary factors in the theory of evolution and that it begins with random mutation.
To which JVL replied with
JVL: sigh. Yes, unguided evolution requires random mutations but it also require cumulative selection. You continually and consistently leave that out!! Why is that?
Notice that I'd written that the theory of evolution BEGINS WITH random mutation. It's like JVL never bothered to read and respond to what I'd actually written instead of just making things up. Then I continued by presenting three important evolutionary factors:
– The number of identical changes required for fixing a variation in a population. – The maximum rate of random mutations. – The estimated reproductive advantage of organisms with a particular mutation over those without it. If you think you know how evolution works, then you’ll know the currently accepted ranges of the above three factors.
JVL then evaded the questions completely with . . .
JVL: You don’t have to know the rate of those factors to infer that the entire process was unguided. The fact that mutations are random with respect to fitness is enough to establish that there was no plan. After that, things played out at the rate they happened.
What? Of course the Darwinian theory of evolution is unguided. Where did I write that it wasn't? And yes, the three factors I mentioned do matter, even if JVL apparently doesn't know what they are or why they're important. And then JVL's comments ended with . . .
Querius: Please note that I’ve provided links and references rather than unsupported assertions, vacuous accusations, or emotional outbursts. JVL: Laden with your poor interpretations of those references. I personally have spent a lot of time trying to explain to you certain things which you, clearly, just refuse to acknowledge or take on board. Why is that?
Oh really? Notice that my alleged "poor interpretations" of the statements from the University of California website on evolution are conspicuously absent. My conclusion is that JVL argues just to argue, does not engage in the substantive issues being raised, does not support any assertions, and seems to be here only to make a lot of noise. -QQuerius
November 10, 2022
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Relatd@357: Good bye.
I will believe it when I see it. I knew it was too good to be true.
Relatd@374: I will no longer reply to your questions about this topic.
Sir Giles
November 10, 2022
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Asauber: I believe that design has been continually implemented from the beginning. Since God thought of it. But not lots of tweaks along the way? So . . . every single act of reproduction is guided by or caused by design? All the viruses, all the bacteria, all the species once extant but now extinct, all done by design?JVL
November 10, 2022
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"Well, if I got it wrong then please clarify when you think design was implemented." JVL, I believe that design has been continually implemented from the beginning. Since God thought of it. Andrewasauber
November 10, 2022
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Asauber: I didn’t say anything remotely close to that. You have a reading comprehension problem. Well, if I got it wrong then please clarify when you think design was implemented. We're all ears.JVL
November 10, 2022
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"So, lots and lots and lots of tweaks along the way. " JVL, I didn't say anything remotely close to that. You have a reading comprehension problem. Andrewasauber
November 10, 2022
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Asauber: I believe it happened over thousands or millions of years. So, lots and lots and lots of tweaks along the way. Okay, you gave an answer. Good. Can you point to a specific example of one of the times design was . . . imposed or implemented?JVL
November 10, 2022
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Relatd: I will no longer reply to your questions about this topic. Everyone please witness what happens when you push some ID proponents for their better explanation. They run away, they bail. They cannot answer one of the most simple and basic questions: when was design implemented. And why is that? Because you don't know? How can you say you have a better explanation when you can't even commit to when your explanation happened?JVL
November 10, 2022
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"did design occur all at once in the beginning or has there been lots and lots of tweaks along the way?" JVL, I believe it happened over thousands or millions of years. Andrewasauber
November 10, 2022
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JVL at 371, I will no longer reply to your questions about this topic.relatd
November 10, 2022
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Asauber: It’s not a counter argument. It’s another just so story to add since we’re fantasizing. Let's see what you can explain then: did design occur all at once in the beginning or has there been lots and lots of tweaks along the way?JVL
November 10, 2022
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"That’s your counter argument?" JVL, It's not a counter argument. It's another just so story to add since we're fantasizing. Andrewasauber
November 10, 2022
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Relatd: Hold up magic curtain. Tell people that things are happening behind it. Wait millions of years. You then get a rabbit. Did design occur all at once in the beginning or has there been lots and lots of tweaks throughout the history of life on Earth?JVL
November 10, 2022
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Asauber: and thousands of billions of years ago, the Great Sloth Giants slowly pushed big molten rocks together piece by piece to make the Earth and then disappeared, never to return because they burned their hands and had to go to Mars and the oceans there steamed away… That's your counter argument? Let's start with a really basic question: Was design all front loaded or were a lot of tweaks required all the way through the history of life on Earth? Just because you use the word “precursor” doesn’t mean you’ve explained anything. Let's see what you can explain then? Did design happen all at once in the beginning or has there been lots a lots of tweaks along the way?JVL
November 10, 2022
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JVL, Just because you use the word "precursor" doesn't mean you've explained anything. Andrewasauber
November 10, 2022
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"Wait millions of years. You then get a rabbit." Relatd, And if you wait just a few more million years you'll get SuperRabbits that make nano-technology SynthCarrots because they discovered real carrots aren't nutritious enough. Andrewasauber
November 10, 2022
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re 359, to KF: See 230 and 299 by me, the posts by hnorman, and some by JVL. "Of pivotal substance" does not necessarily mean "agreeing with you," or responding to all your repetitive, tangential or off-target points.Viola Lee
November 10, 2022
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How evolution works. Hold up magic curtain. Tell people that things are happening behind it. Wait millions of years. You then get a rabbit.relatd
November 10, 2022
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"thousands or millions of years of precursors leading up to them in a slow, step-by-step manner" ...and thousands of billions of years ago, the Great Sloth Giants slowly pushed big molten rocks together piece by piece to make the Earth and then disappeared, never to return because they burned their hands and had to go to Mars and the oceans there steamed away... blah, blah, blah Andrewasauber
November 10, 2022
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Kairosfocus: If you refuse to see that complex systems made up of many parts working together to achieve function require the right parts, in correct arrangements, properly coupled to work, and so are tuned to work, I cannot help you, you are in denial of manifest facts But they didn't just poof into existence without thousands or millions of years of precursors leading up to them in a slow, step-by-step manner. You just deny that that could have happened which makes your criticism narrow and incomplete. until you have a solidly empirical observation based path for chemicals in a Darwin pond or the like to spontaneously, blindly, sans intelligent direction, create — take whatever intermediate steps you can observationally and thermodynamically justify — a metabolising, encapsulated, smart gated automaton that uses coded algorithms for NC molecule assembly machines and has a built in self replication facility, you do not even get to the root of your tree of life. Have you kept up with the current research? Do you know how close researchers are to answering that basic question? How do you know what you know? Are you dependent on the reporting of a few people since you, yourself, don't have the academic background to follow the up-to-date research? How do you know your assertions as to the state of the research are correct? It's a good general question: what authorities do you accept if you cannot judge the research yourself? OR are you just rejecting anything that you disagree with? Who do you trust? What are your biases?JVL
November 10, 2022
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Querius: So, I hope you can understand the primary factors in the theory of evolution and that it begins with random mutation sigh. Yes, unguided evolution requires random mutations but it also require cumulative selection. You continually and consistently leave that out!! Why is that? If you think you know how evolution works, then you’ll know the currently accepted ranges of the above three factors. You don't have to know the rate of those factors to infer that the entire process was unguided. The fact that mutations are random with respect to fitness is enough to establish that there was no plan. After that, things played out at the rate they happened. Please note that I’ve provided links and references rather than unsupported assertions, vacuous accusations, or emotional outbursts. Laden with your poor interpretations of those references. I personally have spent a lot of time trying to explain to you certain things which you, clearly, just refuse to acknowledge or take on board. Why is that?JVL
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