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L&FP, 63: Do design thinkers, theists and the like “always” make bad arguments because they are “all” ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked?

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Dawkins’ barbed blanket dismissiveness comes up far too often in discussions of the design inference and related themes. Rarely, explicitly, most often by implication of a far too commonly seen no concessions, selectively hyperskeptical policy that objectors to design too often manifest. It is time to set this straight.

First, we need to highlight fallacious, crooked yardstick thinking (as exposed by naturally straight and upright plumb-lines). And yes, that classical era work, the Bible, is telling:

Notice, a pivotal point here, is self-evident truths. Things, similar to 2 + 3 = 5:

Notoriously, Winston Smith in 1984 is put on the rack to break his mind to conform to The Party’s double-think. He is expected to think 2 + 2 = whatever The Party needs at the moment, suppressing the last twisted answer, believing that was always the case, while simultaneously he must know that manifestly 2 + 2 = 4 on pain of instant absurdity. This is of course a toy example but it exposes the way crooked yardstick thinking leads to chaos:

Of Lemmings, marches of folly and cliffs of self-falsifying absurdity . . .

(Yes, real lemmings do not act like that. But, humans . . . that’s a whole other story.)

So, now, let us turn to a recent barbed remark by one of our frequent objectors and my reply, laying out a frame of thought and inviting correction — dodged, of course:

KF, 120 in the Foundations thread: [[It is now clear that SG is unwilling to substantially back up the one liner insinuation he made at 84 above, try making a good argument. Accordingly, let me respond in outline, for record, to the general case, that people like us are ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked and the associated zero concessions, selectively hyperskeptical dismissiveness policy. Here, I will show the rational responsibility of the design inference and related ideas, views and approaches, for record and reference:

I will use steps of thought:

1: Reason, in general: Notice, supporters and fellow travellers of evolutionary materialistic scientism undermine the responsible, rational freedom required for reason to be credible. They tend to discount and discredit objectors, but in fact their arguments and assertions are self-referentially incoherent, especially reduction of mind to computationalism on a wetware substrate. Reppert is right to point out, following Haldane and others:

. . . let us suppose that brain state A [–> notice, state of a wetware, electrochemically operated computational substrate], which is token identical to the thought that all men are mortal, and brain state B, which is token identical to the thought that Socrates is a man, together cause the belief [–> concious, perceptual state or disposition] that Socrates is mortal. It isn’t enough for rational inference that these events be those beliefs, it is also necessary that the causal transaction be in virtue of the content of those thoughts . . . [But] if naturalism is true, then the propositional content is irrelevant to the causal transaction that produces the conclusion, and [so] we do not have a case of rational inference. In rational inference, as Lewis puts it, one thought causes another thought not by being, but by being seen to be, the ground for it. But causal transactions in the brain occur in virtue of the brain’s being in a particular type of state that is relevant to physical causal transactions.

2: This extends to Marx’s class/cultural conditioning, to Freud’s potty training etc, to Skinner’s operant conditioning , to claims my genes made me do it, and many more. So, irrationality and undermining of the credibility of reason are a general issue for such supporters and fellow travellers, it is unsurprising to see projection to the despised other (a notorious defence mechanism) and linked failure to engage self referentiality.

3: First principles of right reason: Classically, the core of reason starts with distinct identity, excluded middle, non contradiction. Something x is what it is i/l/o its core characteristics, nothing can be both x and not x in the same sense and circumstances, any y in W = {x| ~x} will be x, ~x, not both or neither. And more. Claimed quantum counter examples etc actually are rooted in reasoning that relies on such. And yes, there have been enough objections that this has come up and is in UD’s Weak Argument Correctives. We leave it to objectors like SG to tell us whether they acknowledge such first principles of right reason: _______ and explain why ________ .

4: Self evidence: There are arguments that, once we have enough experience and maturity to understand [a sometimes big if], will be seen as true, as necessarily true and as true on pain of immediate absurdities on attempted denial. That error exists is a good case in point, and if one is able to see that the attempt to deny objectivity of knowledge for a given reasonably distinct field of thought such as morals or history or reality [metaphysics], or the physical world, or external reality, or in general, etc, one is claiming to objectively know something about that field and so refutes oneself.

5: self referential incoherence and question begging: We just saw an example of how arguments and arguers can include themselves in the zone of reference of an argument in ways that undermine it, often by implying a contradiction. Such arguments defeat themselves. Question begging is different, it assumes, suggests or imposes what should be shown and for which there are responsible alternatives. Arguments can be question begging, and then may turn out to be self refuting.

6: Deduction, induction, abduction (inference to the best [current] explanation [IBE]) and weak-form knowledge: Deduction uses logical validity to chain from givens to conclusions, where if givens are so and the chain valid, conclusions must also be true. Absent errors of reasoning, the debate rapidly becomes one over why the givens. Induction, modern sense, is about degree of support for conclusions i/l/o evidence of various kinds as opposed to demonstration, statistics, history, science, etc are common contexts. Abduction, especially IBE, compares live option alternatives and what they imply, on factual adequacy, coherence and balance of explanatory power, to choose the best explanation so far. In this context weak sense common knowledge is warranted, credibly true (so, reliable) belief. Which, is open to correction or revision and extension.

7: Worldviews context: Why accept A? B. But why B? C, etc. We see that we face infinite regress, or circularity or finitely remote first plausibles . . . which, frame our faith points . . . as we set out to understand our world. Infinite regress is impossible to traverse in reasoning or in cause effect steps, so we set it aside, we are forced to have finitely remote start points to reasoning and believing, warranting and knowing — first plausibles that define our views of the world. Thus, we all live by faith, the question is which, why; so, whether it is rational/reasonable and responsible. Where, too, all serious worldview options bristle with difficulties, hence the point that philosophy is the discipline that studies hard, basic questions. Question begging circles are a challenge, answered through comparative difficulties across factual adequacy, coherence and balance of explanatory power: elegantly simple, neither ad hoc nor simplistic.

[Let’s add an illustration:]

A summary of why we end up with foundations for our worldviews, whether or not we would phrase the matter that way}

[or in Aristotle’s words:]

8: Failure of evolutionary materialistic scientism and fellow traveller views: It will be evident already, that, while institutionally and culturally dominant, evolutionary materialistic scientism and fellow travellers are profoundly and irretrievably incoherent. Yes, a view backed by institutions, power brokers in the academy, the education system and the media can be irretrievably, fatally cracked from its roots.

9: Logic of being (and of structure and quantity), also possible worlds: Ontology and her grand child, Mathematics, grow out of core philosophy, particularly distinct identity and consideration of possible worlds. A possible world, w, is a sufficiently complete description of how our world or another conceivable or even actual world is or may be; i.e. a cluster of core, world describing propositions. In that context, a candidate being or entity or even state of affairs, c, can be impossible of being [e.g. a Euclidean plane square circle] or possible. Possible beings may be contingent [actual in at least one possible world but not all] or necessary [present in every possible world]. We and fires are contingent, dependent for existence on many independent, prior factors; what begins or may cease of existence is contingent. Necessary beings are best seen as part of the fabric or framework for this or any possible world. We can show that distinct identity implies two-ness, thence 0, 1, 2. Ponder, W = {A|~A}, the partition is empty, 0, A is a unit, ~A is a complex unit, so we see 2. So, onward via von Neumann’s construction, the counting numbers N. Thence, Z, Q, R, C, R* etc in any w. This is what gives core Mathematics its universal power.

10: The basic credibility of the design inference: of course, we routinely recognise that many things show reliable signs of intelligently directed configuration as key cause, i.e. design. For example, objectors to the design inference often issue copious, complex text in English, beyond 500 to 1,000 bits of complexity. In the 70’s Orgel and Wicken identified a distinct and quantifiable phenomenon, functionally specific, complex organisation and/or associated information, which I often abbreviate FSCO/I. Organisation is there as things like a fishing reel [my favourite, e.g. the ABU 6500 CT] or a watch [Paley, do not overlook his self replicating watch thought exercise in Ch 2]

or an oil refinery or a computer program [including machine code]

Petroleum refinery block diagram illustrating FSCO/I in a process-flow system

or the cell’s metabolic process-flow network [including protein synthesis]

[with:]

Step by step protein synthesis in action, in the ribosome, based on the sequence of codes in the mRNA control tape (Courtesy, Wikipedia and LadyofHats)

[and:]

all can be described in a suitably compact string of Y/N questions, structured through description languages such as AutoCAD. The inference posits that, with trillions of cases under our belt, reliably, FSCO/I or its generalisation, CSI, will be signs of design as key cause. The controversies, as may be readily seen, are not for want of evidence or inability to define or quantify, but because this challenges the dominant evolutionary materialism and fellow travellers. Which, of course, long since failed through irretrievable self referential incoherence.
_____________________

So, challenge: let SG and/or others show where the above fails to be rational and responsible, if they can__________________ Prediction, aside from mere disagreement and/or dismissiveness, assertions, or the trifecta fallacy of red herrings, led away to strawmen soaked in ad hominems and set alight to cloud, confuse, poison and polarise the atmosphere, they will not be able to sustain a case for general failure to be rational and responsible.]]

The good argument challenge is duly open for response. END

U/D, Nov 4: As it seems certain objectors want to attack the descriptive metaphor, islands of function amidst seas of non function, let me put up here a couple of infographics I used some years ago to discuss this concept. But first, as the primary contexts have to do with protein synthesis and OoL, let me first put up Vuk Nicolic’s video illustrating just what is required for protein synthesis:

. . . and Dr James Tour’s summary presentation on OoL synthesis challenges:

Now, this is my framework for discussing islands of function:

. . . and, on associated active information:

Thus, we can discuss the Orgel-Wicken functionally specific, complex organisation and associated information concept, FSCO/I, similarly:

We see here the needle in a haystack, blind search challenge and how it is dominated by not the hill climbing on fitness functions that is commonly discussed but by the issue of arriving at shorelines of first function. Obviously and primarily, for origin of cell based life [cf. Tour] but also to move from that first unicellular body plan to others. Where, we can observe too that even within an island of function, incremental changes will be challenged by intervening valleys, tending to trap on a given peak or plateau.

But, what of the thesis, that there is in effect a readily accessible first functionality, incrementally connected to all major body plans, allowing unlimited, branching tree of life body plan level macro evolution?

The Smithsonian’s tree of life model, note the root in OOL

Obviously, this architecture implies such continuity. The first problem, obviously is the root and the plethora of speculations and debatable or even dubious syntheses that have been made into icons of the grand evolutionary narrative and taught as effective fact, already tell us something is wrong. A second clue is how the diagram itself implies that transitional forms should utterly dominate the space, with terminal tips being far less common. On basic statistics, we should then expect an abundance of these transitions or “links.” The phrase, missing link, tells the tale instead.

For, the trade secret of paleontology, is the utter rarity of such forms, to the point where punctuated equilibria was a major school intended to explain that general absence. Where, Darwin, notoriously, noted the gaps but expected and predicted that on wider investigations they would go away. But now, after 150 years of searching, billions of fossils seen in situ, millions in museum back office drawers [only a relative few can be displayed] and over a quarter of a million fossil species, the pattern of gaps is very much still here, hot denials and dismissals notwithstanding. That is especially true of the Cambrian fossil life form revolution, where the major current body plans for animals pop up with nary an intermediate. So much so, that there have been significant efforts to make it disappear, obfuscating its significance.

We also have molecular islands of function, starting with protein fold domains. Thousands, scattered across the AA sequence space, no easy path connecting them. Even just homochirality soon accumulates into a serious search space challenge as molecules are complex and mirror image handedness is not energetically enforced, why racemic forms, 50-50 mixes of left and right handed molecules are what we tend to get in lab syntheses. This then gets more complicated where there are multiple isomers as Tour discusses.

In short, a real issue not a readily dismissible notion without significant empirical support.

And so forth.

U/D2 Nov 4: I just found where I had an image from p. 11 NFL, so observe:

ID researcher William A Dembski, NFL, p.11 on possibilities, target zones and events

Where, we can further illustrate the beach of function issue:

And, some remarks:

U/D 3 Nov 7: The all-revealing Eugenics Conference Logo from 1912 and 1921 showing how it was seen as a capstone of ever so many sciences and respected domains of knowledge, especially statistics, genetics, biology and medicine, even drawing on religion, with, politics, law, education, psychology, mental testing and sociology . . . menacingly . . . also being in the roots:

“Eugenics is the self-direction of human evolution”: Logo from the Second International Eugenics Conference, 1921, depicting Eugenics as a tree which unites a variety of different fields.

U/D 4, Nov 10: A reminder on cosmological fine tuning, from Luke Barnes:

Barnes: “What if we tweaked just two of the fundamental constants? This figure shows what the universe would look like if the strength of the strong nuclear force (which holds atoms together) and the value of the fine-structure constant (which represents the strength of the electromagnetic force between elementary particles) were higher or lower than they are in this universe. The small, white sliver represents where life can use all the complexity of chemistry and the energy of stars. Within that region, the small “x” marks the spot where those constants are set in our own universe.” (HT: New Atlantis)

U/D 5, Nov 12: As there is dismissiveness of the textual, coded information stored in DNA, it is necessary to show here a page clip from Lehninger, as a case in point of what should not even be a debated point:

For record.

U/D 6, Nov 14: The per aspect design inference explanatory filter shows how right in the core design inference, alternative candidate causes and their observational characteristics are highlighted:

Explanatory Filter

Again, for record.

Comments
Q, an interesting vid. I would use [maximal or utter] implausibility as impossible would be open to attacks but his point is on target i.l.o a discussion of rarity of beneficial mutations and a proposed 1829 steps to get a fish's eye [with onward issue of number of generations to establish a population and capture an ecosystem niche]. Given rhetorical tendencies, I usually reserve impossibility for not possible of being. Going on to Weasel, yes it is grossly simplified and was used in misleading ways, but lo and behold, even so its multiple components and parameters had to be co-tuned to fit together to achieve the function Mr Dawkins displayed. This manifested the fine tuning and resulting locally isolated islands of function in a configuration space that as I have said is a normal pattern for FSCO/I. That has been hotly objected to but in the haste to discuss weasel, it seems that until an independent reconstruction and simulation were on the table, its exemplification of this pattern was overlooked. KFkairosfocus
November 9, 2022
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Kairosfocus, You might also be interested in this segment about the mathematical impossibility of random mutations resulting in design, which I just stumbled across. The eye example is something that I had been taught in college. https://youtu.be/Q2Ve--JatAs?t=577 The entire video is worth watching, but starts a bit slowly. It's most assuredly relevant to the exceptionally gross oversimplification of "the weasel." -QQuerius
November 9, 2022
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Kairosfocus @328, Regarding your "excuse to tyranny" regardless of potential abuse such as was once done with eugenics inspires me to comment in a general observation that anything in the name of some crisis is politically justifiable if it results in greater bureaucratic control by means of more "bad arguments" that defy both logic and pragmatism. -QQuerius
November 9, 2022
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F/N: To help, link to 285 Notice onward access to software. KFkairosfocus
November 9, 2022
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PPS, in that context, we can return to sanity about the design inference on reliable sign. First, there are many such signs, as OT is currently exploring. Of these, FSCO/I is key, and there is good reason to understand that this naturally leads to fine tuning thus islands of function. As, function based on a cluster of correct, matched parts properly arranged and coupled tightly constrains effective configurations. Unconstrained clumping and scattering will naturally have vastly many more ways, but will be overwhelmingly non functional. Where the additiona-lity of self replication requires integration of a whole further order of function. This was seen by Paley 50 years before Darwin, has been consistently ducked, and is abundantly confirmed by the von Neumann kinematic self replicator. On the weasel case put up by objectors, 285 documents that it actually shows this pattern. There is undisclosed fine tuning behind Mr Dawkins' program and its kin, a huge injection of active information from designers. But, it is hard to acknowledge the significance of signs of design.kairosfocus
November 9, 2022
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JVL, we all know that selective breeding and eugenics are chalk to cheese; the kind of arguments you put up above therefore show up serious questions about your agendas, especially as regards toxic tangents evasive of key established points cf 284 and 285 which gut Mr Dawkins' rhetoric in a lab coat and expose that Weasel was not just designed to reward proximity of non functional gibberish to a target but also that it manifests fine tuning and islands of function therefore. Of course, if you take up worldviews and ideologies under which moral government of decisions and actions is undermined, a man is a pig is a fish is a bicycle so it comes down to whatever the powerful wish is deemed right. In that context, consider where the ruthless powerful went with the definition offered by the eugenicists themselves: eugenics is the self-direction of human evolution [1912 and 1921], a predictable excuse for tyranny if ever there was one . . . as the next several decades proved beyond responsible doubt. Down that road lay marginalisation, forced sterilisation, so-called euthanasia (which has been creeping back globally), mass killing of our living posterity in the womb, genocide. Animal breeding carries with it none of that import of tyranny, as you full well know but want to play rhetorical games with. Yes, it pivots again on is there objective morality. If no, then the door to nihilistic hell yawns open, if yes -- and it is self evidently the case [cf. PS] -- we live in a world with a reality root adequate to ground ought. KF PS, I remind of some algebra, which holds not just for objective knowable moral truth but for any distinct reasonably identifiable domain of thought and potential knowledge:
Objective, so know-able moral truth is widely denied in our day, for many it isn't even a remotely plausible possibility. And yet, as we will shortly see, it is undeniably true; as is so for other reasonably identifiable fields of discussion. This marginalisation of moral knowledge, in extreme form, is a key thesis of the nihilism that haunts our civilisation, which we must detect, expose to the light of day, correct and dispel, in defence of civilisation and human dignity. Let a proposition be represented by x M = x is a proposition asserting that some state of affairs regarding right conduct, duty/ought, virtue/honour, good/evil etc (i.e. the subject is morality) is the case [--> truth claim] O = x is objective and generally knowable, being adequately warranted as credibly true [--> notice, generally knowable per adequate warrant, as opposed to widely acknowledged] It is claimed, cultural relativism thesis: S= ~[O*M] = 1
[ NB: Plato, The Laws, Bk X, c 360 BC, in the voice of Athenian Stranger: "[Thus, the Sophists and other opinion leaders etc -- c 430 BC on, hold] that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made." This IMPLIES the Cultural Relativism Thesis, by highlighting disputes (among an error-prone and quarrelsome race!), changing/varied opinions, suggesting that dominance of a view in a place/time is a matter of balance of factions/rulings, and denying that there is an intelligible, warranted natural law. Of course, subjectivism then reduces the scale of "community" to one individual. He continues, "These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might . . . " [--> door opened to nihilistic factionalism]]
However, the subject of S is M, it therefore claims to be objectively true, O, and is about M where it forbids O-status to any claim of type-M so, ~[O*M] cannot be true per self referential incoherence [--> reductio ad absurdum] ++++++++++ ~[O*M] = 0 [as self referential and incoherent cf above] ~[~[O*M]] = 1 [the negation is therefore true] __________ O*M = 1 [condensing not of not] where, M [moral truth claim] So too, O [if an AND is true, each sub proposition is separately true] That is, there UNDENIABLY are objective moral truths; and a first, self-evident one is that ~[O*M] is false. The set is non empty, it is not vacuous and we cannot play empty set square of opposition games with it. That’s important.
Thus, we find ourselves facing the first duties of responsible -- not irresponsible, manipulative -- reason and indeed first canons of built in law, as was highlighted c 50 BC by Cicero and as we may see 1,000 years earlier from Solomon in the Proverbs:
1st – to truth, 2nd – to right reason, 3rd – to prudence [including warrant], 4th – to sound conscience, 5th – to neighbour; so also, 6th – to fairness and 7th – to justice [ . . .] xth – etc.
The etc is the royal etc, as in to be elaborated as required, hence for instance the framing of English Common Law starting with Alfred's Book of Dooms etc. See Blackstone. However, this also has roots of being, logic of being import. The is-ought gap is a main philosophical challenge and here we are seeing that we are indeed objectively under knowable duties, objective oughts. So, we need a world root level is that can bridge the gap, on pain of ungrounded ought. An easy inference to the best explanation sets a bill of requisites . . . something that is simultaneously good as to inherent nature and source of our world, wile being a necessary, world framework entity capable of causing worlds . . . that leave just one serious candidate on the table. Namely, the inherently good, utterly wise creator God; a necessary and maximally great (thus, supreme) being, one worthy of loyalty and of the responsible, reasonable service that does the good that accords with our evident, morally governed, nature. Such a serious candidate necessary being either is impossible of being [as a Euclidean plane square circle] or is actual; by the logic of necessary being. Where of course atheists such as Mr Dawkins have never had a good argument that God is impossible of being. Nor is such a serious prospect. Ethical theism, generic form, is established as the best explanation for us in our world, with all the force that given the inherent need for necessary being at the root of reality and the logic of candidacy, the mere possibility of God is effectively equivalent to his actuality. Something, atheists have no cogent answer to. Further, you cannot have your cake and eat it. If you want to use implicit, binding moral duties in an argument [cf. first duties of reason] then these issues are central. On which, we have no good reason to doubt the existence of a capable designer for the world, life, body plans, us. Where, precisely due to our mutual moral responsibilities eugenics is an indefensible arrogation of tyrannical power over neighbour. Which is utterly different from breeding dogs, as if such needed to be spelled out. The loaded rhetorical equivalency collapses. Tellingly, regarding centrality of moral government and knowable principles.kairosfocus
November 9, 2022
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JVL, AF, VL et al, kindly note 284 on Mr Dawkins' declared rhetorical purpose in The Blind Watchmaker (which leads to self referential incoherence). Similarly in 285, we see how Weasel fails, not least by having in it undisclosed fine tuning to work, manifesting islands of function. Where too more realistic parameters end up pointing to huge numbers of generations. KFkairosfocus
November 8, 2022
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VL @299 - You write:
So yes, he does extrapolate the power of selection to biology, but he replaces the intelligent design aspect of the program with natural selction
That's the problem. The simulation assumes powers to perform selection based on future knowledge and then puts it in a context where such a thing simply can't function. Normally you would take a mundane process and show logically how it can accomplish grand things over time. In this simulation vast powers for this iterative process are assumed at the very beginning.hnorman42
November 8, 2022
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Relatd @323,
More and more evidence that “discussions” here are more about personal worldview than science.
Yes, indeed! So with that in mind, I wonder how the ID detractors here explain the following aspects of Darwinism (to put a little more science in the topic): 1. Percentage-wise, what does it take for a mutation to become fixed in a population? 2. What is the current estimated limit on the rate of mutations? 3. On the average, how many mutations does it take to result in a phenome change available for natural selection? 4. What is the estimated percent advantage for natural selection in a population? 5. Besides random point mutations, what other processes for genome change are available? 6. How do unrepaired DNA point mutations affect the epigenetic controls for gene expression? 7. How can transgenerational (i.e. not intergenerational) epigenetic changes evolve? Anyone? -QQuerius
November 8, 2022
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Seversky at 320, "... they can’t use it as a coherent explanation of why anything happens at all." I could apply the same statement to evolution. But I would have less to work with. Chance. Luck. Blind action. "It would be fascinating in itself to find evidence of alien intervention in the course of life on Earth." Why? So you could yell to the world that God didn't do it? More and more evidence that "discussions" here are more about personal worldview than science. Oh yes, there's some science posted here but under the surface - God is judged. The work of God is judged - by humans. And found wanting. For those reading - yes, I mean the usual suspects - you're not God.relatd
November 8, 2022
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SG at 321, As far as who should consider the options you are talking about, the Church is saying that they fall outside of the proper use of the marital act. That those considering using these other means should truly consider what the Church is saying. I realize some think that the Church is limited to speaking about faith and not scientific matters. But whenever science creates a means to do things outside of what was previously available to married people, she speaks. She presents the reasons why in-vitro fertilization, for example, is wrong. This is a matter of telling the truth. Of telling people who might not hear it from anyone else. A Catholic hospital would not allow it. The restrictions I mention should apply to Catholics and are meant to be considered by them. The choice between using or not using 'reproductive technologies' should be made in light of the truth, which the Church teaches.relatd
November 8, 2022
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Relatd@316, thank you for the considered response. I had jumped to the conclusion that you thought that these options should not be available to anyone. And I see that I am wrong. If you are only saying that the Church is only requiring these restrictions for those who want to be a “member” of the church, I don’t have a problem. But, I should also mention, that my daughter and her husband are Catholic. And neither of them have an issue with in-situ. And, to be totally inclusive, her identical twin sister and husband are Jewish. And they were both raised, nominally, as protestants. I am just waiting for my son to announce that he is now a Druid.Sir Giles
November 8, 2022
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Viola Lee/318
Then the Designers surveys the new population, omnisciently and omnipotently seeing which members have slight survival advantages as well as being slightly closer to its goal of evolving birds. Then the Designer providentially watches over that subset of members, aiding them so they have an additional survival advantage because of its care, and possible altering their genome a bit to move their offspring to being slightly more evolved in the direction of the target goal, the evolution of birds.
The only problem with that scenario is that its assumes the Designers don't know what the outcome of their little experiment is going to be, just like with human researchers, and I don't have an issue with that. It would be fascinating in itself to find evidence of alien intervention in the course of life on Earth. The obvious problem is that an omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent being would already know the outcome of any experiment because if for no other reason, being omnipresent, it would already be there when the results came in. The creationists can have their triple-O deity but they can't use it as a coherent explanation of why anything happens at all.Seversky
November 8, 2022
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Selective breeding by the Designer!
Yes, and that is ID. An implication of this scenario is that a lot of culling took place. Other organisms related to the original gene pool would have to disappear somehow. I am currently reading a long article by a Theistic Evolutionist/Evolutionary Biologist who is trying to figure out how the creator maneuvered. the development of humans. He is looking to science for justification but really it is all speculation just as the scenario of dinosaurs to birds is.jerry
November 8, 2022
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JVL writes, "why then is it not logical to look at the development of life on Earth, from the designers’ point of view, as being an example of selective breeding?" Here's a scenario where the Designer follows the model of Weasel: There is a population of small dinosaurs living about 100 million years ago. The Designer has a goal of starting with that population and evolving birds some millions of years later. Every year a new generation of dinosaurs is born, with random mutations, genetic reshuffling due to sexual reproduction, and all the other mechanisms we think we know about operating “naturally”, without the Designer’s intervention. Then the Designers surveys the new population, omnisciently and omnipotently seeing which members have slight survival advantages as well as being slightly closer to its goal of evolving birds. Then the Designer providentially watches over that subset of members, aiding them so they have an additional survival advantage because of its care, and possible altering their genome a bit to move their offspring to being slightly more evolved in the direction of the target goal, the evolution of birds. Then the process is repeating for hundreds of thousands of generations, so eventually we have birds which have been selectively bred from dinosaurs. Selective breeding by the Designer!Viola Lee
November 8, 2022
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Kairosfocus: you know what you were doing by trying to inject and project eugenics in the place of breeding of animals. Why can't you answer my question? If the ID paradigm is true and the whole point of life on Earth was to reach a particular goal or target why then is it not logical to look at the development of life on Earth, from the designers' point of view, as being an example of selective breeding? How does that NOT fit in with the hypothesis of ID? Tell me why, specifically, this is not a valid extrapolation of the ID hypothesis. Did the designer have a goal in mind? Did the designer take millions of years tweaking the process to get to their goal? Is that not selective breeding?JVL
November 8, 2022
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SG at 314, I trust you looked over the article I linked to. In brief, some people experience serious difficulties regarding pregnancy, and the Church presents its argument regarding the proper role of marital love and the conception of children. The Church provides information that others can review for the purpose of education and advice. Just because it is possible to do certain things, it does not mean that these methods properly include the mother and the father. This is not a case of who has the right to do this or that but a proper understanding of the role of the married couple in bringing the next generation into the world. Since these methods already exist, it is obvious that some will use them. However, the Church, by virtue of her understanding of married love, seeks to explain the whole picture. She would be lax in her duty to avoid discussing the issues involved. I would add that the issues and advice are not just for Catholics but all men of good will. I worked in hospital for nine years and had some contact with the OB/GYN department and Ultrasound. The situation you describe in your family is very difficult. You and your family have my sympathies. The Church has to live out her beliefs and that means certain medical services are not available or restricted. Speaking broadly, in society, we all need to speak and honestly evaluate what is said.relatd
November 8, 2022
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Q, thanks. The record has been put on the table. KFkairosfocus
November 8, 2022
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Relatd@313, nobody is forcing you to avail yourself of in-vitro fertilization. But why do you think you or the church have the right to prevent others from opting for it? And to really open the flood-gates, I mentioned on a previous thread that my daughter has had several miscarriages and an abortion due to a serious risk to her health. The doctors have narrowed the issue down to a a problem with the wall of her uterus preventing proper attachment with the placenta. Her best option, if she wants to have a child, is to use in-vitro fertilization and implant the embryo in a surrogate, possibly her identical twin sister, but most likely someone else because her sister may suffer from the same problem.Sir Giles
November 8, 2022
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SG at 311, I offer the following for your consideration: https://popepaulvi.com/PDF/Newsletter-FCYoungWomen/FCCO-Newsletter_V4n1_Issue10.pdfrelatd
November 8, 2022
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The only reason I engage with them is to illuminate the massive flaws in their responses for the benefit of open-minded onlookers here
I will do this at first but nearly all the time the replies are not constructive. So I tend not to respond to anyone who I believe cannot/won't engage in a fruitful conversation. My main reason here is to build the ID case and actually would welcome criticism or confirmation which ever is justified. Right not I am working on my own on Human differences and the various aspects of fine tuning. These are two completely different topics. I own a business with my wife which allows me sometimes to spend a fair amount of time here and other times, I just have time to see what is going on.jerry
November 8, 2022
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Relatd: SG at 282, And you, yes you, can go to a pro-evo site and avoid all this. But I suspect that’s not going to happen…
So, what is your opinion on in-vitro fertilization? And using it to avoid a pregnancy with a serious genetic condition such as hemophilia?Sir Giles
November 8, 2022
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PyrrhoManiac1 @294, Thank you for your thoughtful, cogent reply to my question. Having had some recent discussions with a family involved in dog breeding, your points make sense. However, responsible dog breeders do not breed dogs with genetic flaws, even with late manifestations. But, since traits are often linked, breeding dogs to AKC standards lead to unintended deleterious consequences, which is also true of overadapted or overspecialized species in the wild. Also relevant is that genetic diversity is important for both hybrid vigor and adaptability to changing environmental conditions. It also prevent genetic isolation that's led to some horrible genetic conditions in some parts of the world. Reducing the frequency of alleles involved in the expression of some harmful mutations, is beneficial but should not involve either coercion or moving in the direction of so-called “designer babies.” Here’s the US government position on Eugenics and its promotion by Charles Darwin’s cousin, Francis Galton. https://www.genome.gov/about-genomics/educational-resources/timelines/eugenics The term, eugenics, has been replaced with human genetic engineering, which is a more direct manipulation of DNA. For your interest, here’s an overview that discusses the risks as well as its potential benefits. https://biologywise.com/genetic-engineering-in-humans Let me suggest that as technologies in general become more powerful, increasingly serious ethical issues have been emerging, including the risks of consolidating power, which can be misused, misapplied, or hijacked. This applies to broad areas of technology beyond genetics, including social engineering, tracking everything you do, artificial intelligence, etc. -QQuerius
November 8, 2022
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JVL, you have the information above, if you are willing. KF PS, you know what you were doing by trying to inject and project eugenics in the place of breeding of animals.kairosfocus
November 8, 2022
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Kairosfocus @284, Excellent post with content-rich, supported statements and substantive observations—unlike the detractors who consistently assume that merely their opinions constitute irrefutable proof. Your additional observations about “the weasel” demonstrate that it’s an extremely poor analogy of what would have to happen in genetics. But as it’s been frequently noted, “analogy is the strongest argument but the weakest proof.” Analogies are excellent for explaining a concept, but are also excellent at misleading people, which is the case with "the weasel." I’ve also noticed the evasiveness, especially after I was able to demonstrate the ideological commitment of some here to defending or rationalizing Charles Darwin’s obvious racism. My point is that those who defend Charles Darwin’s Eurocentric racism are certainly not open to responding rationally to the obvious weaknesses in Darwinism, which has been acknowledged even by evolutionary biologists who know something about the subject. -QQuerius
November 8, 2022
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Jerry @249,
My experience is that few really want to learn/understand and discuss. They want to pontificate, obfuscate or find fault mostly with inane comments or ignorance. And then many respond to the inane comments. That describes about 90% of the comments here.
Yes, exactly! The only reason I engage with them is to illuminate the massive flaws in their responses for the benefit of open-minded onlookers here. And when some people respond with their usual ad hominem responses, you can be assured of their intellectual bankruptcy and that you’ve won the argument. -QQuerius
November 8, 2022
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Here’s a 5 minute video by Stephen Meyer explaining problems with natural processes in biology and new life capabilities. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOIbcOoaxuY&t=340s It’s 3 years old but just saw it a few minutes ago.jerry
November 8, 2022
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Kairosfocus: notice the balance of values that have to go Goldilocks zone to present the sort of behaviour as published by Mr Dawkins. I have no idea what you are referring to. DR Dawkins (talk about an ad hominem) would like to persuade people that unguided evolutionary theory is true via explaining in non-technical, non-academic ways how it works and what evidence there is for it. He would be the last person to use manipulative and coercive methods as you assume are utilised. As to trying to project eugenics, kindly notice the conference logo now appended to the OP, you will be able to see a whole agenda of power that humans cannot safely hold over one another. Sigh. IF ID is a purposeful, intelligently controlled process with a goal in mind is it not equivalent to a guided, selective breeding program? How then are humans different from a pure bred dog? Dogs do love their owners after all.JVL
November 8, 2022
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Jerry: Natural Selection is perfectly compatible with ID. You are a plant aren't you? You say outrageous things and don't answer questions. I shan't bother to explain why I disagree with your statements since you always bail when the going gets tough, i.e. fruitless.JVL
November 8, 2022
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No, it is an illustration of how small cumulative steps can produce larger positive changes if there is process that selects according to some criteria as the process iterates.
Perfectly compatible with ID.
this case both the selection process and the positive change (advancing towards the target string) are artificially (his words), or intelligently, designed. But illustrating intelligent design is not the purpose of the program: illustrating the power of iterative selection is the purpose.
Perfectly compatible with ID.
natural forces do provide a selection process that can explain slow evolutionary change.
Perfectly compatible with ID.
program is not meant to be an illustration of, or evidence for, natural selection. That is what the rest of the book is about.
Perfectly compatible with ID.
He replaces the intelligent design aspect of the program with natural selction
Perfectly compatible with ID so something is wrong here. ID accepts natural selection as natural and obvious. So no distinction should be made.
the argument for the power of iterative selection doesn’t change, but the nature of the selection process does.
Perfectly compatible with ID.
Yes, this is the difference between Weasel and nature, and between what ID posits and what natural selection posits.
Natural Selection is perfectly compatible with ID. So making a distinction is not productive. The issues go much deeper.
my understanding of evolutionary theory.
Missing some obvious things. People here should read Darwin Devolves by Behe to get an understanding of what is in play in terms of biological change and ID. ID accepts everything that is proven. That's why it is better science than what is taught in any university.jerry
November 8, 2022
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