Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Logic and First Principles, 9: Can we be “certain” of any of our views or conclusions?

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Currently, one of the objections on the table to a demonstration on how certain structural and quantitative entities are implicit in there being a distinct possible world is the rejection, dismissal or doubting of certainty of conclusions. This again reflects one of the many problems with thought in our day.

Let’s add a quip, for those who doubt that warranted (as opposed to ill-advised) certainty is possible: are you CERTAIN that we cannot be justifiably certain?

Accordingly, I took the opportunity to comment in the fallacies discussion thread:

[KF, FDT 304:] One of the themes that keeps surfacing is “certainty,” which sets up the issues: warrant, knowledge, reliability, credibility, and responsibility.


Given that we ever so often use knowledge in a sense that is less than absolute, irrefutable certainty, as in science, I have put on the table that knowledge speaks of warranted, credibly true (so, reliable) belief. Obviously, this is normally provisional, but it leaves open cases where the degree of warrant and credibility are such that these claims are utterly certainly true and beyond doubt, save by the irresponsible. That is where self-evident truths and inescapable first principles of right reason live. Such includes mathematical truths of the order

||| + || –> |||||.


Thus, we see that warrant comes in degrees and must attain to some degree of reliability that lends the credibility that leads to responsible belief. This may be less than certain, e.g. by and large scientific theories and models are not certain, they are open to correction on many grounds. Yes, Science is at a relatively low rung on the warrant ladder. Observations of science are another matter, they carry with them the credibility of witness, which can be morally certain.


So, certainty is now on the table, and just like warrant (from which it derives) it comes in degrees depending on cases, context and subject matter.


Moral certainty is a case where the grounds of warrant are sufficiently strong that one would be derelict of duty if one were to willfully treat something of that degree of credibility as though it were false, when something of great moment or value is on the table. For example, in a criminal case under Common Law jurisdictions, one must prove beyond reasonable doubt — this is a criterion of responsibility in the context of duty to justice. In commercial or civil matters, preponderance of evidence is a lower standard.


Beyond that everyday sense of certainty, lie the cases where in effect there is reason to believe that the judgement that x is the case has passed beyond room for reasonable, responsible doubt and is utterly unlikely to be reversed; something is true and is so grounded that there is no real room for doubt, but is not a necessary truth — one that must be so in this and all other possible worlds. Then, there is self-evidence, where x is so, is seen to be so by one with enough experience to understand the claim properly, and is such that the denial is immediately, patently absurd. That error exists, is a case in point, the attempt to deny instantly exemplifies that error exists. Likewise, one cannot be deluded that s/he is conscious, as to doubt is an act of consciousness.


Regrettably, we are so situated that it is impossible to build a whole worldview up from matters that are at least self-evidently so.


However, this degree of warranted certainty (and what lies beyond) serves to provide yardsticks and plumblines to test our worldview cores. For example, that error exists is undeniably true and warranted to self-evident certainty. This confirms that truth beyond opinion exists.

Likewise, that some truths are intelligible, accessible by reason. As we observe and experience that error exists means that observation and experience can access truth. Similarly, we have warrant to undeniable certainty, so certain knowledge exists. If certain knowledge exists, knowledge (embracing weaker senses) exists also.


Further to this, beliefs, opinions, ideologies and worldviews that assume, argue, opine and assert that truth, or knowledge, or warrant or certain knowledge do not exist or that claims to such only serve “intolerance” and oppressor-classes — their name is Legion, are swept away wholesale as error. And yes, for cause I have the fell work of cultural marxism squarely in my sights, along with radical relativism and radical subjectivism.


Moreover, having warranted this point to certainty, I freely hold there is demonstrative warrant and that for cause opinion and rhetorical objection to the contrary avail nothing. Though in a politically correct era, many will take the vapours and will be frightened that I have announced a policy of right wing, Christofascist totalitarianism dressed up in Torquemada’s robes. That is how far ever so many in our civilisation have been misled.


That agit prop induced and/or mal-education induced reaction is unwarranted, the issue is to act responsibly and rationally in light of duty to truth, right reason, prudence, justice, etc.


However, there are higher yet degrees of warrant and certainty of knowledge.


Some truths are necessary, certain, intelligible and knowable to utter, incorrigible certainty and even absolute: the truth, the whole truth on a material matter, nothing but the truth on the material matter. Where, a necessary truth will be so in this or any other possible world. And what is more, many such truths are intelligible and warranted to similarly necessary certainty. Many core principles of reason and mathematics are of this order.


For relevant example, for a distinct world to be possible of existence, it must have in it at least one feature [A] such that it is different from all other possible worlds. We may then freely dichotomise W: W = {A|~A}. This already indicates that rationally intelligible structure and quantity are present in the fabric for such a world, we may readily identify here duality, unity (and complex unity in the case ~A), also nullity. The von Neumann construction then gives muscle to Peano’s succession from unity, and we have the natural counting numbers. From this, we may further recognise Z, Q, R, C and more.


Widening scope, and using reality in the widest sense, in reality (to include the case where there may be plural worlds as domains in reality) there will be some A, thus too ~A and a similar dichotomy obtains, R = {A|~A}. Instantly, A is itself i/l/o its core characteristics, perhaps a bright red ball on a table. This is the Law of Identity, LOI. Similarly, by the contrast and dichotomy, no x in R will be in A and in ~A, law of non contradiction, LNC. Thirdly (notice how counting numbers are implicit) any x in R will be in A or else in ~A, not in both or neither. Law of the excluded middle, LEM.


These three are inescapably true. We cannot prove them by appealing to something deeper, as to try to prove cannot but assume and implicitly use them. Likewise a claimed disproof or possible world in which they do not hold will on inspection be found to be implicitly using them. Such are the start-points for reasoning.

In short, we can see that the claim that we cannot be certain about anything is itself a claim to certainty, so it is advisable to instead explore the degrees of warrant we may obtain, for various types of cases. Once we do so, it becomes clear that there are degrees of warrant thus of certainty. Where, moral certainty is the first such degree, with self-evidence and necessary, undeniable or inescapable truths progressing upwards on the ladder. Such then allow us to have yardsticks and plumb-lines to test our reasoning and knowledge claims.

The common notion that associates certainty with oppression, intolerance etc and reacts by applying a hermeneutic of suspicion fails to properly address warrant and knowledge. END

PS: It is likewise worth pausing to point out the relevant demonstration on how considerable, rationally intelligible substance of structure and quantity are implicit in there being a distinct possible world on the table. Here, 257 in the same thread:

1: Consider reality, and within it some distinct entity, say a bright red ball on a table, B. Thus the rest of reality is the complement to B, ~B. Reality, R = {B|~B}


2: Immediately, B is itself (distinctly identifiable i/l/o its core, distinguishing characteristics), this is the fundamental law of thought, Law of Identity, which sets up the dichotomy and its corollaries.


3: Clearly, no x in R can be B AND ~B. Law of non-contradiction, a corollary.


4: Likewise, any x in R must be in B or in ~B, not between them or separate from them: B X-OR ~B, law of the excluded middle. The second corollary.


5: Now, ponder a possible world, W, a sufficiently complete description of a possible [coherent!] state of affairs in reality, i.e. in this or any other world that could be or is.


6: So far, we have set up a framework for discussion, including pointing out the key first principles of right reason that we must use so soon as we type out a message using distinct characters, etc. These are not provable, they are inevitable, inescapable and thus have a right to be presumed first truths of right reason.


7: Now, W, holds distinct identity, it is a particular possible world, different from all others. That is, if claimed entities W1 and W2 are not discernibly different in any respect, they are just different labels for the same thing W.


8: Notice, all along we are trafficking in statements that imply or assert that certain things are so or are not so, i.e. propositions and that relationship of accurate description of reality that we term truth.


9: All of these are not merely concrete particulars or mere labels, they are abstracta which are inevitable in reasoning. Indeed, the relationship of intentionality implicit in attaching a name is an abstractum, too.
10: Now, W is one of infinitely many possible states of affairs, and shares many attributes in common with others. So, we mark the in-common [genus] and the distinct [differentia].


11: So, we freely identify some unique aspect of W, A. W, then is: W = {A|~A}.


12: But already, we see rationally discernible abstract entities, principles and facts or relationship, quantity and structure; i.e. the SUBSTANCE of Mathematics. Namely,


13: first, that which is in W but external to A and ~A is empty, as is the partition: nullity.


14: Likewise, A is a distinct unit, as is ~A [which last is obviously a complex unity]. This gives us unity and duality.


15: So, simply on W being a distinct possible world, we must have in it nullity, unity and duality. These are abstract structural and quantitative properties embedded in the framework for W.


16: This is, strictly, already enough for the claim that there is an abstract substance of mathematical character that is necessarily embedded in any possible world, which is itself an abstract entity, being a collection of propositions. In at least one case such are actualised, i.e. it is possible to have an accurate summary of our world.


17: However, much more is necessarily present, once we see the force of the von Neumann succession of ordinals (which substantiates Peano’s succession), actually presenting the natural counting numbers starting from the set that collects nothing, which is itself an undeniable abstract entity:


{} –> 0
{0} –> 1
{0,1) –> 2
{0,1,2} –> 3
. . .
{0,1,2,3 . . . } –> w [first transfinite ordinal]
etc, without limit


18: We here have N. Define for some n in N, that -n is such that n + (-n) = 0, and we equally necessarily have Z. Again, rooted in the distinct identity of a world, we are studying, exploring, discovering, warranting (as opposed to proving), not creating through our culturally influenced symbolism and discussion.


19: Similarly, identify the ratio n:m, and we attain the rationals, Q.
20: Use power series expansions to capture whole part + endless sum of reducing fractions converging on any given value such as pi or e or phi etc, and we have the reals, R, thus also the continuum. Where, from Z on, we have has entities with magnitude and direction, vectors.


21: Now, propose an operation i*, rotation pivoting on 0 through a right angle. This gives us i*R, an orthogonal axis with continuum, and where for any r in R+, i*r is on the new [y] axis.


22: Now too, go i*i*r, and we find -r. That is we have that i = sqrt(-1), which here has a natural sense as a vector rotation. Any coordinate in the xy plane as described is now seen as a position vector relative to the origin.


23: We have abstract planar space, thus room for algebraic and geometrical contemplation of abstract, mathematically perfect figures. For instance consider the circle r^2 = x^2 + y^2, centred on o.


24: In its upper half let us ponder a triangle standing at -r [A] and r [B] with third vertex at C on the upper arc. This is a right angle triangle with all associated spatial properties, starting with angle sum triangle and Pythagorean relationships, trig identities etc. Between these two figures and extensions, the world of planar figures opens up.


25: Extend rotations to ijk unit vectors and we are at 3-d abstract “flat” space. All of this, tracing to distinct identity.


26: We may bring in Quaternions and Octonions, the latter now being explored as a context for particle physics.


27: The Wigner Math-Physics gap is bridged, at world-root level.


28: Similarly, we have established a large body of intelligible, rational entities and principles of structure and quantity implicit in distinct identity. Such are the substance we discover by exploration (which is culturally influenced) rather than invent.


29: Where it is an obvious characteristic of invention, that it is temporally bound past-wards, Until some time t, entity e did not exist. Then, after t, having been created, it now exists.


30: The above abstracta are implicit in the distinct identity of a world and so have existed so long as reality has. That is, without past bound. (It can readily be shown that if a world now is, some reality always was.)

I again point out that once a demonstration is on the table, only a counter-demonstration suffices to answer it. Unsubstantiated opinions to the contrary avail nothing. Perhaps, it is helpful to note Aristotle on pathos, ethos, logos:

Of the modes of persuasion furnished by the spoken word there are three kinds. The first kind depends on the personal character of the speaker [ethos]; the second on putting the audience into a certain frame of mind [pathos]; the third on the proof, or apparent proof, provided by the words of the speech itself [logos]. Persuasion is achieved by the speaker’s personal character when the speech is so spoken as to make us think him credible . . . Secondly, persuasion may come through the hearers, when the speech stirs their emotions. Our judgements when we are pleased and friendly are not the same as when we are pained and hostile . . . Thirdly, persuasion is effected through the speech itself when we have proved a truth or an apparent truth by means of the persuasive arguments suitable to the case in question . . . . [Aristotle, The Rhetoric, Book I, Ch. 2. Cf. summary with scholarly observations at http://plato.stanford.edu/entr…..-rhetoric/ and http://www.public.iastate.edu/…..index.html for a hypertext version of the book]

For, appeals to our passions, perceptions and felt reactions are of no more weight than the soundness of underlying judgements. Those to the credibility of an authority or presenter hold no more weight than the merits of the underlying case. It is therefore to the merits of fact and logic that we must always go. This should not be controversial, but that is where we now have reached.

Comments
H, Pardon, but I did not invent the term, moral certainty; which is not primarily about "moral issues" beyond the duties of prudence, justice and right reason, indeed it is the context for the criminal law standard of proof beyond reasonable doubt. It has to do with warrant sufficient to ground duty to act on x as though it were true on matters of high importance. Indeed, that is pretty much what I already said in the OP:
Moral certainty is a case where the grounds of warrant are sufficiently strong that one would be derelict of duty if one were to willfully treat something of that degree of credibility as though it were false, when something of great moment or value is on the table. For example, in a criminal case under Common Law jurisdictions, one must prove beyond reasonable doubt — this is a criterion of responsibility in the context of duty to justice. In commercial or civil matters, preponderance of evidence is a lower standard.
I could not have been more explicit and specific in a brief compass on the point. Consequently this feels, rhetorically very much like a side-tracking that distracts from a pivotal matter to mire the discussion in frankly sewage -- given one of the topics listed which EG has raised repeatedly and was warned about in another thread just a few days ago. (Maybe that word will help to convey the revulsion that some forms of behaviour justifiably raise, because that is exactly what is involved. Such topics simply should not come up routinely in normal discussion.) Then, up it pops again in this thread. I can and will deal with that and similar topics in due course but they are not the topic for this thread nor are they relevant to it. There is a prior issue on the table, that certainty that one cannot justifiably be certain is not only self referentially incoherent but also clearly ill founded by way of examining degrees of warrant. Likewise, the notion that all is subjective or culturally based opinion in rhetorical games anyway, is equally self referentially incoherent. Where, the injection or suggestion of cultural marxist narratives that to stand up for objectivity and objective certainty on adequate warrant is oppressive, is a destructive subversion of reason and prudence. Correcting such becomes doubly important when we have to turn to scientific inferences or matters of moral truth or prudence. KFkairosfocus
January 26, 2019
January
01
Jan
26
26
2019
07:13 AM
7
07
13
AM
PDT
I was just wondering why kf thought it inappropriate for Ed to mention some moral issues, and specifically why he called them "sewer topics". He didn't appear to answer that question. That's all my post was about.hazel
January 26, 2019
January
01
Jan
26
26
2019
06:27 AM
6
06
27
AM
PDT
Hazel said
“Drag in sewer topics”? I do believe the OP says, “Moral certainty is a case where the grounds of warrant are sufficiently strong that one would be derelict of duty if one were to willfully treat something of that degree of credibility as though it were false, when something of great moment or value is on the table.” Ed mentioned some moral issues “of great moment or value” (not sewer issues), and said he thought you might have some of the following in mind: not an unreasonable thing to do given the sentence of yours I quoted.
The argument is not about any particular issue; the argument is about the logically supportable basis by which we make any moral claim whatsoever. There's no use arguing IF something is moral or immoral unless there is a common basis by which to pursue a rational argument in the first place. KF has outlined his basis repeatedly. What is your (or Ed George's) basis or model by which you make moral decisions?William J Murray
January 26, 2019
January
01
Jan
26
26
2019
06:18 AM
6
06
18
AM
PDT
PS: Let me take up further, a pivotal claim by H: "you’ve invented your own set of philosophical abstractions and a logic that holds them all together." Not at all. Let me use a classical reference that exposes crucial errors in the claim:
Paul of Tarsus, 1 Cor 14:6 Now, believers, if I come to you speaking in unknown tongues, how will I benefit you unless I also speak to you [clearly] either by revelation [revealing God’s mystery], or by knowledge [teaching about God], or by prophecy [foretelling the future, speaking a new message from God to the people], or by instruction [teaching precepts that develop spiritual maturity]? 7 Yet even lifeless things, whether flute or harp, when producing a sound, if they do not produce distinct [musical] tones, how will anyone [listening] know what is piped or played? 8 And if the [war] bugle produces an indistinct sound, who will prepare himself for battle? 9 So it is with you, if you speak words [in an unknown tongue] that are not intelligible and clear, how will anyone understand what you are saying? You will be talking into the air [wasting your breath]! [AMP]
Here, we see an apt illustration of how the principle of distinct identity is pivotal to rational communication and thought. This is literally undeniable truth as the attempt to deny, belittle or dismiss it -- simply to communicate a message -- must rely on distinct identity. The principle of distinct identity is not an arbitrary invention by dubious individuals setting up THEIR idiosyncratic scheme of logic, it is a first prior of rational, propositional thought and communication. It is a terrible sign of where our civilisation has reached that this has become a debated point, that an educated person could imagine it is a plausible claim to target an inescapable truth such as this. The matter goes further, as a facet of the principle is the common identity of indiscenibles. That is if W1 and W2 are identical in every material respect we are justified to conclude that we are simply seeing different labels for the same entity, say W. A classic case is the morning vs evening star, long recognised to be the same object, Venus. Likewise, one and the same thing will have the same core properties even when it appears in different guises or contexts: a wandering star at evening or morning, in succession in the case of Venus. It is in this context, for example that we can point out that there is just one null set, which we discover manifested in various contexts. By contrast, identical twins are not truly ontologically identical: they are two closely resembling individuals whose bodies came from one common zygote which split into two separate bodies; and this becomes clear in cases of conjoined twins, even where the incomplete separation is such that there is considerable bodily overlap. All of this points to the force of the principle: that any entity A is itself, in light of its core characteristics which mark it out as distinguishable from all others. Thus with a given distinct world W there will be some A that marks it out as separate from all other possible worlds. Then, we may freely partition W = {A|~A}, dichotomising W. Thus instantly as corollaries no x in W will be both A and ~A and any x in W will be in A or in ~A but not both or neither. LNC and LEM, respectively, as was pointed out in the OP. These are not arbitrary choices (i.e. "inventions") that may be freely rejected. As seen, the very attempt to express that rejection inescapably implicitly uses the LOI just to communicate a message. They are recognised, verbalised, discovered, understood as true, necessarily true, so true on pain of instant, patent absurdity on the attempted dismissal. Where, their central role in propositional thought and communication implies that they are implicitly present even in contexts that set out to create other "logics" that deny them. The objection and associated implied appeals to relativism and/or subjectivism (as well as, likely, the narrative of oppressive imposition) fails. Again and again, it seems the issue at stake is first principles of reason and refusal to acknowledge just how inescapable they are.kairosfocus
January 26, 2019
January
01
Jan
26
26
2019
03:28 AM
3
03
28
AM
PDT
H & EG, I first highlight the point on certainty from the fallacies thread that is being answered:
H, FDT, 298: I’ve said I think you [WJM] and kf both think you know more than you really can: you’ve invented your own set of philosophical abstractions and a logic that holds them all together, but they are a self contained system without any definitive appeal to any experience that can validate them to others. H, FDT, 89: Platonic realism, one of three possible philosophies mentioned in post 85. Another is nominalism, which I am suggesting. I am making the point that your philosophy, although it seems absolutely certain to you, is seen differently by other respected philosophers. [BTW, note, too in this comment: H -- "there are circular things: your fishing reel has many of them. But the abstract circle, or the property of circleness, exists only in our minds. That is the position of nominalism (which a word I didn’t know until a couple of days ago, but it fits what I have been trying to say.)" --> so, it was fair comment for me to note that you had gone on to champion nominalism, here as conceptualism. The context of being imbued with a view without having learned its name speaks to cultural availability due to ideological dominance..]
All of this, is in reply to a logical demonstration on the principle of identity that draws out that the requisites of a distinct possible world lead to a partition of some distinctive aspect A with its complement being the rest of the world, ~A. Thus, on inspection of the partition, we see duality, unity, nullity, thence can follow succession to the Naturals, from which Z, Q, R, C follow as abstracta embedded in the distinct identity for any specific possible world. Which means, such entities are necessary. I suggest, looking at a specific red ball on a table in this actual (so, possible) world, and noticing that that concrete case is a familiar example of said dichotomy. The triple first principles of right reason follow, LOI, LNC, LEM, not as speculations locked away in some logic game WJM or I may play and others may elect not to play, but as inescapable truths manifest in our common world. In fact, to object in this thread you have had to rely on the distinct identity of alphanumeric characters and associated glyphs. I also beg to remind one and all that I invited you both, H and EG, to get out paper scissors and glue or tape then explore paper loops with and without twists that make Mobius strips. I invited concrete experimentation to see the divergent results on cutting three strips around the loop. An ordinary loop cut along its centre separates into two narrower loops. An M-strip cut along the centre will on cut 1 go to a longer loop (a second cut of this loop results in interlocked loops). The second M-strip, cut along the 1/3 point will separate into interlocked twisted loops, one longer than the other. These concrete exercises with paper are clearly independent of our inner notions and games of thought. Had they been undertaken, they would have exhibited the consequences of embedded structures and quantities manifest in our common world independent of our particular ideas. And indeed, the Mobius strip, I understand, was a significant case of mathematical discovery that helped launch a field of study, Topology. A case of discovery rather than invention in some logic game. A discovery that demonstrates empirically how properties of space are embedded in our world. Unsurprisingly, neither of you reported on such an exercise. H, you said you understand such strips. EG, I believe went silent on the topic. Moreover, appeal to experience as validating -- here, get out paper, glue and scissors -- is of course another appeal to warrant that may provide a degree of certainty. Empirical observation may in many cases rise to moral certainty, but as was pointed out in the OP, explanatory constructs on such (models and theories used in science, engineering, finance and management) cannot rise beyond provisional warrant on tested empirical reliability so far. When we turn to conscious reflection, we find things that are indubitably experience, and which can and do rise to much higher certainty of warrant. For instance, that one is self aware and conscious is undeniably true and self evident to a given subject. Likewise, that such a subject is appeared to redly on seeing a bright red ball on a table is a fact of experience that is undeniably so. One, that can be shared with others by pointing and inviting, pointing to our shared world. (I add: where, if someone cannot perceive red under appropriate conditions, we identify that person as colour blind. Indeed, recently there was a triumph of making glasses that by filtering certain bands achieved a breakthrough that has become somewhat of an Internet sensation.) Likewise, through language and rational study we can and do have shared experiences of warrant that can rise to demonstrative certainty, rooted in first principles. Where, such principles can often be seen in the same way as self evident, undeniable or necessary through being inescapable. These are not proofs, they form the basis on which we may test or prove. In context, I have highlighted the inescapable nature of distinct identity and its corollaries, non-contradiction and excluded middle. Kindly cf. OP. The attempt to suggest such are inaccessible fails and once experience includes shared rational reflection, they are accessible to others in a community of rational contemplation. Next, I repeat:from the OP; moral certainty is a degree of certainty -- that where
the grounds of warrant are sufficiently strong that one would be derelict of duty if one were to willfully treat something of that degree of credibility as though it were false, when something of great moment or value is on the table. For example, in a criminal case under Common Law jurisdictions, one must prove beyond reasonable doubt — this is a criterion of responsibility in the context of duty to justice. In commercial or civil matters, preponderance of evidence is a lower standard.
The subject on the table -- again -- is warrant and certainty, not tangential topics, especially such as go down in the sewer as I have had occasion to specifically gavel in another thread recently, as EG full well knows. The name for the fallacy involved in side tracking -- a favourite tactic of concern trolls BTW -- is the red herring. This is normally the first stage of a trifecta: red herrings --> strawman caricatures soaked in ad hominems -- > set alight rhetorically to cloud, poison, polarise. That can be done blatantly or it can be done subtly but the effect is much the same. In a future thread, I will take time to (again) show that there are self-evident moral truths that are instructive on ordering our interior and common lives. For example, it is self-evident that reasoned discussion appeals to the known duty to truth, right reason, prudence, fairness etc. Without acknowledged moral truth that has force of known law, the possibility of a community of rational discourse collapses in absurdity, deceit and cynical manipulativeness. And more. But this thread's issue is prior. The question is warrant to an appropriate degree of certainty. Where, I again ask those who have been conditioned to see claims to certainty as always unjustified and likely oppressive: are you CERTAIN that one cannot ever be justifiably certain? If so, why? If not, of course, the objection collapses. In short, the objection is self-referentially incoherent and demonstrably an error. Where, that error exists is undeniably certain. KFkairosfocus
January 26, 2019
January
01
Jan
26
26
2019
12:50 AM
12
12
50
AM
PDT
sheesh, double denial. ,,, but alas, that is the main modus operandi of Darwinian Atheism. Deny, deny, deny.,,,. i.e. deny morality exists but insist that your subjective and amoral atheistic morality is just as valid as objective Christian morality. i.e. deny free will exists but demand the right for women to 'choose' to kill their unborn babies. deny etc..exists but live as if it is real. i.e. Atheism is insane!bornagain77
January 25, 2019
January
01
Jan
25
25
2019
10:20 PM
10
10
20
PM
PDT
Hazel
Ed mentioned some moral issues “of great moment or value” (not sewer issues), and said he thought you might have some of the following in mind: not an unreasonable thing to do given the sentence of yours I quoted.
Thank you Hazel. I was confused by KF’s response as well. C’est la vie.Ed George
January 25, 2019
January
01
Jan
25
25
2019
09:40 PM
9
09
40
PM
PDT
Weird response, but obviously not much point in trying to understand.hazel
January 25, 2019
January
01
Jan
25
25
2019
08:11 PM
8
08
11
PM
PDT
Morality and atheism have nothing to do with your question or with you? Okie Dokie, I can see honesty will not be forthcoming. FYI, I don't play word games with atheists and will just as soon see you banned rather than play stupid word games with you.bornagain77
January 25, 2019
January
01
Jan
25
25
2019
07:24 PM
7
07
24
PM
PDT
ba writes, "January 25, 2019 at 8:56 pm Hazel, assuming for the sake of argument that you really exist as a real person, and are not a neuronal illusion generated by the molecules of your brain, just how does someone of the atheistic persuasion judge whether anything is morally superior or not?" Why are you even asking me that question? It doesn't seem to have anything to do with anything I said??????hazel
January 25, 2019
January
01
Jan
25
25
2019
07:17 PM
7
07
17
PM
PDT
Hazel, assuming for the sake of argument that you really exist as a real person, and are not a neuronal illusion generated by the molecules of your brain, just how does someone of the atheistic persuasion judge whether anything is morally superior or not? Morality, like value, meaning, purpose, is illusory in the atheist's worldview. Subject to the subjective whims of whomever is making a moral judgement. Moreover, given that free will is also illusory in the atheist's worldview, then even the supposed subjective moral choices we make are also not subject to our control. i.e. No one is ever really guilty of murder for no one ever has control over whether they murder or not. In short, Atheism is an insane worldview. Even atheists themselves are unable to live as if their insane worldview were actually true.
The Heretic - Who is Thomas Nagel and why are so many of his fellow academics condemning him? - March 25, 2013 Excerpt:,,,Fortunately, materialism is never translated into life as it’s lived. As colleagues and friends, husbands and mothers, wives and fathers, sons and daughters, materialists never put their money where their mouth is. Nobody thinks his daughter is just molecules in motion and nothing but; nobody thinks the Holocaust was evil, but only in a relative, provisional sense. A materialist who lived his life according to his professed convictions—understanding himself to have no moral agency at all, seeing his friends and enemies and family as genetically determined robots—wouldn’t just be a materialist: He’d be a psychopath. http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/heretic_707692.html?page=3
Richard Dawkins himself admitted that it would be quote unquote 'intolerable' for him to live his life as if atheistic materialism were actually true
Who wrote Richard Dawkins’s new book? – October 28, 2006 Excerpt: Dawkins: What I do know is that what it feels like to me, and I think to all of us, we don't feel determined. We feel like blaming people for what they do or giving people the credit for what they do. We feel like admiring people for what they do.,,, Manzari: But do you personally see that as an inconsistency in your views? Dawkins: I sort of do. Yes. But it is an inconsistency that we sort of have to live with otherwise life would be intolerable. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2006/10/who_wrote_richard_dawkinss_new002783.html
And in the following article subtitled “When Evolutionary Materialists Admit that Their Own Worldview Fails”, Nancy Pearcey quotes many more leading atheists who honestly admit that it would be impossible for them to live their life as if atheistic materialism were actually true.
Darwin's Robots: When Evolutionary Materialists Admit that Their Own Worldview Fails - Nancy Pearcey - April 23, 2015 Excerpt: Even materialists often admit that, in practice, it is impossible for humans to live any other way. One philosopher jokes that if people deny free will, then when ordering at a restaurant they should say, "Just bring me whatever the laws of nature have determined I will get." An especially clear example is Galen Strawson, a philosopher who states with great bravado, "The impossibility of free will ... can be proved with complete certainty." Yet in an interview, Strawson admits that, in practice, no one accepts his deterministic view. "To be honest, I can't really accept it myself," he says. "I can't really live with this fact from day to day. Can you, really?",,, In What Science Offers the Humanities, Edward Slingerland, identifies himself as an unabashed materialist and reductionist. Slingerland argues that Darwinian materialism leads logically to the conclusion that humans are robots -- that our sense of having a will or self or consciousness is an illusion. Yet, he admits, it is an illusion we find impossible to shake. No one "can help acting like and at some level really feeling that he or she is free." We are "constitutionally incapable of experiencing ourselves and other conspecifics [humans] as robots." One section in his book is even titled "We Are Robots Designed Not to Believe That We Are Robots.",,, When I teach these concepts in the classroom, an example my students find especially poignant is Flesh and Machines by Rodney Brooks, professor emeritus at MIT. Brooks writes that a human being is nothing but a machine -- a "big bag of skin full of biomolecules" interacting by the laws of physics and chemistry. In ordinary life, of course, it is difficult to actually see people that way. But, he says, "When I look at my children, I can, when I force myself, ... see that they are machines." Is that how he treats them, though? Of course not: "That is not how I treat them.... I interact with them on an entirely different level. They have my unconditional love, the furthest one might be able to get from rational analysis." Certainly if what counts as "rational" is a materialist worldview in which humans are machines, then loving your children is irrational. It has no basis within Brooks's worldview. It sticks out of his box. How does he reconcile such a heart-wrenching cognitive dissonance? He doesn't. Brooks ends by saying, "I maintain two sets of inconsistent beliefs." He has given up on any attempt to reconcile his theory with his experience. He has abandoned all hope for a unified, logically consistent worldview. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/04/when_evolutiona095451.html
This impossibility for Atheists to live consistently within their stated worldview directly undermines their claim that Atheism is true Specifically, as the following article points out, if it is impossible for you to live your life consistently as if atheistic materialism were actually true, then atheistic materialism cannot possibly reflect reality as it really is but atheistic materialism must instead be based on a delusion.
Existential Argument against Atheism - November 1, 2013 by Jason Petersen 1. If a worldview is true then you should be able to live consistently with that worldview. 2. Atheists are unable to live consistently with their worldview. 3. If you can’t live consistently with an atheist worldview then the worldview does not reflect reality. 4. If a worldview does not reflect reality then that worldview is a delusion. 5. If atheism is a delusion then atheism cannot be true. Conclusion: Atheism is false. http://answersforhope.com/existential-argument-atheism/
My question to you Hazel, why do you personally choose, (again assuming you really are a real person who really can choose between viable options), to pretend as if the insanity of atheism is true rather than choosing the sanity that can be ground solely in Christian Theism as your foundational wordview? If you, like Nagel, "just don't want the universe to be like that" then at least have enough honesty within yourself and with others to honestly admit that rather than pretend the insanity that you and other atheists are championing on UD is in any way coherently rational. It simply disingenuous of you to want us to play along with your insane charade.
“I speak from experience, being strongly subject to this fear myself: I want atheism to be true and am made uneasy by the fact that some of the most intelligent and well-informed people I know are religious believers. It isn’t just that I don’t believe in God and, naturally, hope that I’m right in my belief. It’s that I hope there is no God! I don’t want there to be a God; I don’t want the universe to be like that. My guess is that this cosmic authority problem is not a rare condition and that it is responsible for much of the scientism and reductionism of our time. One of the tendencies it supports is the ludicrous overuse of evolutionary biology to explain everything about human life, including everything about the human mind …. This is a somewhat ridiculous situation …. [I]t is just as irrational to be influenced in one’s beliefs by the hope that God does not exist as by the hope that God does exist.” - Thomas Nagel "I have argued patiently against the prevailing form of naturalism, a reductive materialism that purports to capture life and mind through its neo-Darwinian extension." "..., I find this view antecedently unbelievable---a heroic triumph of ideological theory over common sense". Thomas Nagel - "Mind and Cosmos: Why the Materialist Neo-Darwinian Conception of Nature Is Almost Certainly False" - pg.128
Verse:
Everyone therefore who hears these words of mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man, who built his house on a rock. The rain came down, the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat on that house; and it didn't fall, for it was founded on the rock. Everyone who hears these words of mine, and doesn't do them will be like a foolish man, who built his house on the sand. The rain came down, the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat on that house; and it fell—and great was its fall. —Matthew 7:24–27 I AM THEY - My Feet Are on the Rock (Official Music Video) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uYiHiJTN6Y
bornagain77
January 25, 2019
January
01
Jan
25
25
2019
06:56 PM
6
06
56
PM
PDT
"Drag in sewer topics"? I do believe the OP says, "Moral certainty is a case where the grounds of warrant are sufficiently strong that one would be derelict of duty if one were to willfully treat something of that degree of credibility as though it were false, when something of great moment or value is on the table." Ed mentioned some moral issues "of great moment or value" (not sewer issues), and said he thought you might have some of the following in mind: not an unreasonable thing to do given the sentence of yours I quoted.hazel
January 25, 2019
January
01
Jan
25
25
2019
04:18 PM
4
04
18
PM
PDT
EG, the issue on the table is warrant, in a context that spoke to a logical demonstration. You will get no further warnings about trying to drag in sewer topics, as you have tried to drag into thread after thread. KF PS: If you had actually read the discussion in the OP, you would have seen: "by and large scientific theories and models are not certain, they are open to correction on many grounds. Yes, Science is at a relatively low rung on the warrant ladder. Observations of science are another matter, they carry with them the credibility of witness, which can be morally certain." (Moral certainty is defined in the OP, as too often this term is not well understood today.) The design inference on tested reliable sign is well warranted as a scientific claim, but is one that is always open to test; the resort to selective hyperskepticism, false accusations of smuggling "religion" into science and to ideological lockouts by imposition of self-refuting, question-begging evolutionary materialistic scientism are what have no proper warrant in that context. The challenge being answered -- as you full well know -- is about actual demonstration on first principles and their corollaries and implications. As is explicitly laid out. In that context, certainty was challenged in a way that suggests that it is unwarranted and questionable, fully meriting a reply as is in the OP.kairosfocus
January 25, 2019
January
01
Jan
25
25
2019
02:52 PM
2
02
52
PM
PDT
KF
are you CERTAIN that we cannot be justifiably certain?
Obviously there are things we can be justifiably certain about. I am justifiably certain that I can’t live without food water and air. But I suspect that you are talking about issues that are often discussed here (eg, objective morality, ID, the origin of human rights, homosexuality, abortion, etc., etc.). For most of these, no we can’t be justifiably certain. And the reason for this is once we claim justifiable certainty, we end the discussion. And it becomes majority rules.and, at present, the majority is winning. To the detriment of all of us.Ed George
January 25, 2019
January
01
Jan
25
25
2019
02:20 PM
2
02
20
PM
PDT
Added to the OP: Let’s add a quip, for those who doubt that warranted (as opposed to ill-advised) certainty is possible: are you CERTAIN that we cannot be justifiably certain?kairosfocus
January 25, 2019
January
01
Jan
25
25
2019
02:03 PM
2
02
03
PM
PDT
BA77, evolutionary materialistic scientism is self-refuting, indeed. KFkairosfocus
January 25, 2019
January
01
Jan
25
25
2019
04:06 AM
4
04
06
AM
PDT
Hi KF, as to:
Can We Be “Certain” Of Any Of Our Views Or Conclusions?
As Descartes pointed out, 'certainty' can only be based in an immaterial mind, i.e. "I think therefore I am". For 'certainty to even exist in the first place, then immaterial mind is a requirement! Yet Atheistic Materialism/Naturalism denies the reality of the immaterial mind. This denial of the primacy of the immaterial mind by Atheists leads to the self-refuting contention by many leading atheistic philosophers that 'consciousness is an illusion', i.e. to the claim that they really don't exist as real people,,,
Ross Douthat Is On Another Erroneous Rampage Against Secularism – Jerry Coyne – December 26, 2013 Excerpt: “many (but not all) of us accept the notion that our sense of self is a neuronal illusion.” Jerry Coyne – Professor of Evolutionary Biology – Atheist https://newrepublic.com/article/116047/ross-douthat-wrong-about-secularism-and-ethics At the 23:33 minute mark of the following video, Richard Dawkins agrees with materialistic philosophers who say that: “consciousness is an illusion” A few minutes later Rowan Williams asks Dawkins ”If consciousness is an illusion…what isn’t?”. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWN4cfh1Fac&t=22m57s “There is no self in, around, or as part of anyone’s body. There can’t be. So there really isn’t any enduring self that ever could wake up morning after morning worrying about why it should bother getting out of bed. The self is just another illusion, like the illusion that thought is about stuff or that we carry around plans and purposes that give meaning to what our body does. Every morning’s introspectively fantasized self is a new one, remarkably similar to the one that consciousness ceased fantasizing when we fell sleep sometime the night before. Whatever purpose yesterday’s self thought it contrived to set the alarm last night, today’s newly fictionalized self is not identical to yesterday’s. It’s on its own, having to deal with the whole problem of why to bother getting out of bed all over again.” – A.Rosenberg, The Atheist’s Guide to Reality, ch.10 The Consciousness Deniers – Galen Strawson – March 13, 2018 Excerpt: What is the silliest claim ever made? The competition is fierce, but I think the answer is easy. Some people have denied the existence of consciousness: conscious experience, the subjective character of experience, the “what-it-is-like” of experience.,,, Who are the Deniers?,,, Few have been fully explicit in their denial, but among those who have been, we find Brian Farrell, Paul Feyerabend, Richard Rorty, and the generally admirable Daniel Dennett.,,, http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2018/03/13/the-consciousness-deniers/ “that “You”, your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behaviour of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules. As Lewis Carroll’s Alice might have phrased: “You’re nothing but a pack of neurons.” This hypothesis is so alien to the ideas of most people today that it can truly be called astonishing.” Francis Crick – “The Astonishing Hypothesis” 1994 The Brain: The Mystery of Consciousness By STEVEN PINKER - Monday, Jan. 29, 2007 Part II THE ILLUSION OF CONTROL Another startling conclusion from the science of consciousness is that the intuitive feeling we have that there's an executive "I" that sits in a control room of our brain, scanning the screens of the senses and pushing the buttons of the muscles, is an illusion. http://www.academia.edu/2794859/The_Brain_The_Mystery_of_Consciousness “(Daniel) Dennett concludes, ‘nobody is conscious … we are all zombies’.” J.W. SCHOOLER & C.A. SCHREIBER – Experience, Meta-consciousness, and the Paradox of Introspection – 2004
Besides the insane claim from leading atheistic philosophers that their own personal subjective conscious experience is an illusion, and that they really don't exist as real people, many other things become illusory in the atheist's worldview. Things that normal people resolutely hold to be concrete and real.
"Basically, because of reductive materialism (and/or methodological naturalism), the atheistic materialist is forced to claim that he is merely a ‘neuronal illusion’ (Coyne, Dennett, etc..), who has the illusion of free will (Harris), who has unreliable beliefs about reality (Plantinga), who has illusory perceptions of reality (Hoffman), who, since he has no real time empirical evidence substantiating his grandiose claims, must make up illusory “just so stories” with the illusory, and impotent, ‘designer substitute’ of natural selection (Behe, Gould, Sternberg), so as to ‘explain away’ the appearance (i.e. illusion) of design (Crick, Dawkins), and who must make up illusory meanings and purposes for his life since the reality of the nihilism inherent in his atheistic worldview is too much for him to bear (Weikart), and who must also hold morality to be subjective and illusory since he has rejected God (Craig, Kreeft). Bottom line, nothing is real in the atheist’s worldview, least of all, morality, meaning and purposes for life.,,," Paper with references for each claim page; Page 37: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pAYmZpUWFEi3hu45FbQZEvGKsZ9GULzh8KM0CpqdePk/edit
Thus, although the Darwinian Atheist firmly believes he is on the terra firma of science (in his appeal, even demand, for methodological naturalism), the fact of the matter is that, when examining the details of his materialistic/naturalistic worldview, it is found that Darwinists/Atheists are adrift in an ocean of fantasy and imagination with no discernible anchor for reality to grab on to. It would be hard to fathom a worldview more antagonistic to modern science, (and to "certainty" itself), than Atheistic materialism and/or methodological naturalism have turned out to be.
2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
Moreover, since the most 'certain' thing about reality that we can be absolutely 'certain' of is the fact that we really do exist as real people, "I think therefore I am", and since we can also be absolutely certain that is not our own finite, contingent, immaterial mind that is upholding reality, then we also can be absolutely 'certain' that it must necessarily be the infinite Mind of God that is upholding reality. As Plantinga humorously noted in his critique of solipsism, “We take good care of the professor because when he goes we all go.”
Solipsist Humor from Plantinga ,,,At a recent Lecture I attended by Philosopher Alvin Plantinga, he warmed up the crowd with a few solipsist jokes.,,, FYI, solipsism is the rather odd idea that there is only one individual in the universe and that you are it. Everyone else is just a figment of your imagination. 1. British philosopher Bertrand Russell was a solipsist for a time (why does that not surprise me?), and he once received a letter from a woman who found his arguments very convincing. Well, I suppose it’s not so hard to convince a figment of your imagination that your arguments are brilliant. Anyway, the woman commented in her letter that his description of solipsism made a lot of sense and that, “I’m surprised there aren't more of us.” 2. Plantinga also told of an accomplished academic who was a well-known solipsist (I forget the guys name). And Plantinga thought it would be fun to meet a real life solipsist, so he went to visit him. He was treated fairly well considering he was only figment. I mean, it’s not a given that a solipsist would feel the need to be polite to his imaginary friends. After a brief conversation, Plantinga left and on the way out one of the man’s assistants said, “We take good care of the professor because when he goes we all go.” http://www.fellowtravelerblog.com/2011/05/13/solipsist-humor-from-plantinga/ Another interesting argument comes from the leading philosopher and Christian, Alvin Plantinga—he asked, what evidence does anyone have for the existence of other people’s minds? He argued cogently that the evidence for God is just as good as the evidence for other minds; and conversely, if there isn’t any evidence for God, then there is also no evidence that other minds exist—see God and Other Minds, Cornell University Press, repr. 1990. http://creation.com/atheism-is-more-rational
Supplemental quotes from leaders of quantum mechanics, (and from Eben Alexander who had a Near Death Experience), on the 'necessary' premise of the primacy of immaterial mind:
“No, I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness.” Max Planck (1858–1947), the main founder of quantum theory, The Observer, London, January 25, 1931 “Consciousness cannot be accounted for in physical terms. For consciousness is absolutely fundamental. It cannot be accounted for in terms of anything else.” Schroedinger, Erwin. 1984. “General Scientific and Popular Papers,” in Collected Papers, Vol. 4. Vienna: Austrian Academy of Sciences. Friedr. Vieweg & Sohn, Braunschweig/Wiesbaden. p. 334. “The principal argument against materialism is not that illustrated in the last two sections: that it is incompatible with quantum theory. The principal argument is that thought processes and consciousness are the primary concepts, that our knowledge of the external world is the content of our consciousness and that the consciousness, therefore, cannot be denied. On the contrary, logically, the external world could be denied—though it is not very practical to do so. In the words of Niels Bohr, “The word consciousness, applied to ourselves as well as to others, is indispensable when dealing with the human situation.” In view of all this, one may well wonder how materialism, the doctrine that “life could be explained by sophisticated combinations of physical and chemical laws,” could so long be accepted by the majority of scientists." – Eugene Wigner, Remarks on the Mind-Body Question, pp 167-177. The Science of Heaven by Dr. Eben Alexander - Nov. 18, 2012 Can consciousness exist when the body fails? One neurosurgeon says he has seen it firsthand—and takes on critics who vehemently disagree. Excerpt: Many scientists who study consciousness would agree with me that, in fact, the hard problem of consciousness is probably the one question facing modern science that is arguably forever beyond our knowing, at least in terms of a physicalist model of how the brain might create consciousness. In fact, they would agree that the problem is so profound that we don’t even know how to phrase a scientific question addressing it. But if we must decide which produces which, modern physics is pushing us in precisely the opposite direction, suggesting that it is consciousness that is primary and matter secondary. http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2012/11/18/the-science-of-heaven.html
Thus in conclusion, we find that 'certainty' itself can only be based within the Theistic framework where immaterial mind is held to be primary, and we also find that, besides the entire atheistic worldview becoming 'illusory' (and therefore "uncertain'), the Atheist himself becomes illusory is his 'uncertain' atheistic worldview. ,,, Poe would be proud of the 'Dream within a Dream' that the atheist forces himself to live in with his chosen illusory worldview where he has forsaken God from having any place in his life.,,,
A Dream Within a Dream BY EDGAR ALLAN POE Take this kiss upon the brow! And, in parting from you now, Thus much let me avow — You are not wrong, who deem That my days have been a dream; Yet if hope has flown away In a night, or in a day, In a vision, or in none, Is it therefore the less gone? All that we see or seem Is but a dream within a dream. I stand amid the roar Of a surf-tormented shore, And I hold within my hand Grains of the golden sand — How few! yet how they creep Through my fingers to the deep, While I weep — while I weep! O God! Can I not grasp Them with a tighter clasp? O God! can I not save One from the pitiless wave? Is all that we see or seem But a dream within a dream?
Verse:
Ephesians 5:14 For this reason it says, "Awake, sleeper, And arise from the dead, And Christ will shine on you."
Quote:
Hawking’s entire argument is built upon theism. He is, as Cornelius Van Til put it, like the child who must climb up onto his father’s lap into order to slap his face. Take that part about the “human mind” for example. Under atheism there is no such thing as a mind. There is no such thing as understanding and no such thing as truth. All Hawking is left with is a box, called a skull, which contains a bunch of molecules. Hawking needs God In order to deny Him." - Cornelius Hunter Photo – an atheist contemplating his 'immaterial mind' http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-H-kjiGN_9Fw/URkPboX5l2I/AAAAAAAAATw/yN18NZgMJ-4/s1600/rob4.jpg
bornagain77
January 25, 2019
January
01
Jan
25
25
2019
03:53 AM
3
03
53
AM
PDT
Logic and First Principles, 9: Can we be “certain” of any of our views or conclusions? --> Let me sharpen this a bit: can we be CERTAIN that we cannot be certain?kairosfocus
January 25, 2019
January
01
Jan
25
25
2019
12:24 AM
12
12
24
AM
PDT
1 2 3

Leave a Reply