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[L&FP 39:] Implication logic is pivotal to understanding how we think as duty-bound rational creatures

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In recent months we have had several forum threads, which naturally tend to throw up onward topics worth headlining. Here, I will headline some observations on implication logic in deductive and in inductive reasoning.

However, first, the core of the logic of implication.

Implication Truth Table, notice how the only case where the implication is not true is if p is true and q false (HT Wiki)

Algebraically, p => q is analysed as ~[p AND ~q]. Interpreted, for whatever reason, p being so is sufficient for q to also be so. This compound proposition does NOT assert that p, only that p is sufficient for q. Similarly, q is NECESSARY for p, i.e. if q can be false and p true, q is not implied by p.

As a bare structure, this is termed material implication, fleshing out the why of the implication brings in issues of cause, logic of being, mathematical relations, semantics, imposed conditions in a process flow etc.

As a subtlety, if we apply this structure to the classic syllogism,

A: Socrates is a man
B: Men are mortal
_____________________
C: Socrates is mortal

. . . we will see that p = [A AND B] with p => q entails that

[A => q and/or B => q ]

It turns out, yes. The propositions in the syllogism overlap and interact, one draws out and applies a meaning implicit in the other. The set, men is a subset of the set, mortals. That Socrates is a man only stipulates that Socrates is a member of that subset of mortals. Socrates is a man is sufficient for his mortality, and Men are mortal is sufficient for any particular case of man to be mortal. Syllogisms and implications interact in unexpected ways, sometimes. But that is where insights surface.

Yes, too, a similar analysis can be done on the truth table equivalent form, ~p AND/OR q; as is shown. (I here emphasise the inclusive or rather than the exclusive one [XOR], vel not aut as Latin distinguishes.)

The second form surfaces a hidden property, the principle of explosion.

A false antecedent, p, can and does often entail a true consequent q; however it is also prone to imply false ones. A true antecedent will only imply true consequents. That is a key property, truth preservation. Also, this is where ex falso quodlibet comes from: when p is [x AND ~x], it materially entails anything, becoming an expression of meaninglessness. That said, in modelling we often pose a “simplified” antecedent to derive correct results in a tested zone of reliability.

That becomes important in science and engineering. In the latter as models are a major design technique. In science as we see that hypotheses and theories are not shown to be strictly true by predictive success, only to be empirically reliable in a given domain of successful testing. Our confidence in theories ought to be tempered by the concept that a scientific law, hypothesis or theory boils down to being at best an empirically reliable, possibly true model. Sometimes, not even that. (The pessimistic induction that across times many grand theories generally taken as true failed empirically, beckons.)

With that in mind, we now may clip our comment of interest, to see how implication works out on the ground so to speak. Here, I assert that “[t]he role of implication logic is central, both as proof structure and explanation structure.” Expanding:

[Law/Duty thread, 1184;] Where, p => q, we are often tempted to reason
p => q but I reject q, so I reject p,
however, when p is self-evident, that rejection clings to absurdity:
I reject p, but p is self evident means ~p is absurd [in various ways]

However, we can arbitrarily redefine terms, manipulate opinion, play lawfare, build up corrupted systems and the like to support ~p, especially when entrenched interests and ideological agendas are at stake. History since 1789 and especially from 1917 speaks on this in rivers of blood and tears.

Such leads to a breakdown of rationality, organisations, societies and more.

Likewise, where q is a composite of observations o1, o2 . . . on
We may ask, which p currently best explains such of p1, p2 . . . pm
At an earlier stage, we may examine the set of observations to sketch out possible explanations.

This is abductive reasoning, a key form of modern sense inductive logic.

We propose criteria of ranking, typically tied to factual adequacy, coherence and balanced explanatory power [ elegantly simple, not simplistic or ad hoc]

This introduces issues of discernment and judgement as is typical of inductive reasoning

In this process, self evident first principles and duties are involved but are not generally sufficient to determine the overall decision. Prudence becomes pivotal and so the habitual discipline to build it up is vital to intellectual thriving.

Factual adequacy is an appeal to truth [and, when is a claimed fact so is material].

Coherence is an appeal to right reason and principles of logic including distinct identity and close corollaries non contradiction and excluded middle.

Explanatory balance involves discernment and the whole involves prudence including the judgement when a conclusion is well warranted.

So, when such are systematically undermined in a culture, the ability to think reliably and soundly is undermined.

For practical import, look all around.

We now see how first duties of reason pervade real world rational inference. First, in logic of implication, with p as a self-evident truth as a key special case. If you doubt the reality of self-evidence, let me add a further clip to show by example that self-evident truths do exist:

[Laws/duties, 1172:] 1] || + ||| –> |||||, symbolically, 2 + 3 = 5; undeniable on pain of absurdity and demonstrating that the class is non-empty. Split your fingers into a two set and a three set, join them as a five set.

2] The Josiah Royce proposition: E – error exists. This is manifestly familiar from sums exercises with red X’s. But it is not just a massively empirically supported truth and one that is a general consensus. It is undeniable. Let the denial be ~E. Already to assert ~E entails, it would be an error to assert E. So, undeniably, E. E is true, undeniably, necessarily, self evidently true. It is also warranted to incorrigible certainty. It is empirically discoverable and a widespread consensus. It is known truth. Accordingly, general skepticism denying possibility of knowledge, fails. So do radical relativism and subjectivism, which deny the possibility of objectively warranted and undeniably demonstrated knowledge.

3] Moral case study and yardstick I: it is self evidently wrong, willfully wicked, inherently criminal and evil to kidnap, bind, sexually torture and murder a young child for one’s pleasure. Those who deny or dismiss or evade this do not overthrow the truth, they simply reveal their absurdities or worse. This also shows that the weak and inarticulate have rights and are owed justice. Might does not make right, manipulation does not make rights out of thin air.

Next, in abductive form inductive reasoning. The evaluation of which candidate explanation best accounts for empirical observations draws on appeals to first duties of reason even more intensely than deductive forms that rely on our implicitly accepted duties to truth and rationality, prudence and so too warrant.

Yes, things are that dire. We need to go back to and start afresh from clarifying ABC first principles to sort out where we are; when as a civilisation we ought instead to have long since been a shining example and teacher to the world. END

PS: Just to make it crystal clear where this leads, first the plumb line test:

So, too, for example, we see the first truths of logic:

And, here are more, set in the context of first duties of reason . . . unlike a computer or a rock, we can choose to disregard logic, truth, prudence etc:

Inescapable? The objector, to gain rhetorical traction invariably appeals to our implicit recognition of the first duties, and the one who tries to prove them does so too. These are therefore first duties that pervade reasoning and by and large move us to acknowledge them (save when it is too inconvenient).

Comments
KF, That link goes to what is just a longer version of your repeated comment here. It does not specifically point out where MRT fails to provide what is necessary. Please look over #200 here where I made it easy for you by pointing out where I would like you to state specifically how MRT fails. Just pick one that is the easiest and tell me specifically how MRT specifically fails. Giving me a general principle and saying the MRT fails it, is not addressing how MRT specifically fails it.William J Murray
April 15, 2021
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See here https://uncommondescent.com/logic-and-first-principles-of-right-reason/lfp-40-thoughts-on-neo-reidian-common-sense-realism/kairosfocus
April 15, 2021
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Let me make it even easier for you, KF: "The key point in my expression C:(I UNION We) is that our consciousness is unified and embraces the self in the world thus also the world. [MRT does this; do you think it does not?]In this context, once one uses skeptical fallacies to radically doubt or dismiss the awareness C:(), or any major part, the self I or the world We, there are no firewalls, [Is MRT using skeptical fallacies? Which ones? How? Where?]one is undermining the conscious mindedness required to reason regarding the self or the world we inhabit. This is self-referentially absurd. Better, is to recognise that even as error exists is undeniably true, we may err in detail but on the whole our core consciousness is veridical. [Does MRT claim that consciousness is not verdical? How? Where?]That is, we are minded, embodied creatures aware of our selves and via that embodiment, we participate in a wider world, including experiences, memory, rational reflection etc.[Does MRT deny this? How? Where?]"William J Murray
April 15, 2021
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KF,
WJM, it is clear that there was reason to point out what I actually stated, for record. KF
KF: you asked ME to NOTE what you said in your argument against MRT. You weren't posting it "for the record." Those three or four comments I wrote were in response to that very thing. If you think my responses to that argument misunderstands your argument, reposting the same thing verbatim and asking me to "note it" accomplishes what? So, let me again do your work for you. You said (several times:)
The key point in my expression C:(I UNION We) is that our consciousness is unified and embraces the self in the world thus also the world. In this context, once one uses skeptical fallacies to radically doubt or dismiss the awareness C:(), or any major part, the self I or the world We, there are no firewalls, one is undermining the conscious mindedness required to reason regarding the self or the world we inhabit. This is self-referentially absurd. Better, is to recognise that even as error exists is undeniably true, we may err in detail but on the whole our core consciousness is veridical. That is, we are minded, embodied creatures aware of our selves and via that embodiment, we participate in a wider world, including experiences, memory, rational reflection etc.
Tell me specifically how MRT does (or fails to do) any of the things you are apparently saying it does in the above comment. Tell me which necessary things MRT fails to provide. I mean, line up what parts of MRT fail to do the job you consider necessary and how it fails to do its job in terms of avoiding grand delusion or self-referential absurdity. Please be specific.William J Murray
April 15, 2021
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WJM, it is clear that there was reason to point out what I actually stated, for record. KFkairosfocus
April 14, 2021
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KF, answered and rejected in my prior comments above. If you think I've misunderstood your argument, repeating your exact same argument verbatim as if it's going to have a different outcome/response might be an indication you're delusional.William J Murray
April 14, 2021
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WJM, Kindly note just what is antecedent to this in what I actually argue:
The key point in my expression C:(I UNION We) is that our consciousness is unified and embraces the self in the world thus also the world. In this context, once one uses skeptical fallacies to radically doubt or dismiss the awareness C:(), or any major part, the self I or the world We, there are no firewalls, one is undermining the conscious mindedness required to reason regarding the self or the world we inhabit. This is self-referentially absurd. Better, is to recognise that even as error exists is undeniably true, we may err in detail but on the whole our core consciousness is veridical. That is, we are minded, embodied creatures aware of our selves and via that embodiment, we participate in a wider world, including experiences, memory, rational reflection etc.
KFkairosfocus
April 14, 2021
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Can we stop this nonsense about MRT No one believes it. And the main person bringing it up does not believe it either as he constantly refers to an external world as the basis for reality. It’s a silly game being played. The more interesting thing is that people try to answer this nonsense like it was real.jerry
April 14, 2021
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To continue: You can make whatever claims you want about "reality." You can propose any sort of additional domain external of mind you desire. You can completely believe such domains exist. But the inescapable, self-evident fact of our existence is: all we actually have is mind. It is foolish, IMO, to talk about "reality" in any other terms. For all practical intents and purposes, reality is mental in nature, and the only possible sound and rational theory about reality is some form of mental reality. We just don't have any possible access to any aspect of "reality" that hypothetically exists independent or outside of mind (to be clear, I'm not talking about what we call an individual mind. My MRT is not solipsistic.)William J Murray
April 14, 2021
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Now let's examine the claim that MRT is "self-referentially absurd." If that is true, all is lost, because mind is the only thing we have to work with regardless of any theory. You can't save yourself from "self-referential absurdity" by proposing a domain or processes external of mind, because all you have of that proposed domain is what occurs in mind. All thought about it occurs in mind. All experimentation of it and all theories about it occur in mind. If MRT is self-referentially absurd because it is monistic and mind is all there is, then all is inescapably lost, because that is all we have.William J Murray
April 14, 2021
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So, KF, when you say MRT renders the common physical world our senses reveal to us "a grand delusion," what you're really saying is that's the effect it would have under the ERT perspective. That is why it is a straw man objection. It is not a "grand delusion" or an "illusion" or a "misrepresentation" or an "error" under MRT because MRT doesn't assume such an external world exists in the first place to compare it against. Therefore, that it is a mutually experiential, verifiable and testable set of physical experiences is not a "delusion;" that word only has value in comparison to the ERT perspective. That is what that category of experience IS under MRT. It never was an actual world external of mind, thus understanding it as such cannot make it a "delusion." You only consider it "prone to delusion" because you're thinking about what it would mean under your ERT. That is not a sound criticism of MRT, it's just your inability to step outside of ERT for a minute to consider it from a different perspective.William J Murray
April 14, 2021
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The only "firewall" we can possibly have against delusion is the capacity to internally discern between categories of mental experience, because all experience is necessarily mental in nature. You can imagine that some "hardware" firewall exists external of mind, but that "hardware firewall" is forever unavailable to us to examine for fidelity, as is the domain it is supposed to be processing into mentally-accessible information. The only "fidelity" we can actually examine is the fidelity of comparative mental experiences, (1) between experiencers, and (2) to the characteristics of that category of experiences. ERT requires MRT or else it cannot even get off the ground. ERT requires both mental categorical and mental interpersonal fidelity and sound mental firewalls between categories of mental experience or else it has no significant foundation to even make claims about any supposed domain exterior to mind. IOW, any sound ERT must necessarily be a subset of a sound MRT or else it cannot survive or be taken seriously (this is why materialism fails and is delusional.) If we cannot be confident in our ability to correctly discern between categories of mental experience, ALL is lost regardless of the theory. One's correct understanding can never ultimately depend on an "external of mind" hardware/firewall set because there is literally, even in principle, no way to test the accuracy or fidelity of such a system. We cannot even access it; all we would have available to us is the processed, interpreted mental information it produces as mental experience. All we can possibly be testing is a category of mental information/experiences/phenomena by using other categories of mental experiences. Unless that is a sound internal process with high fidelity information processing and firewalls, all is lost. When you take the necessary internal firewalls, safeguards and capacity to directly access the real world (of information) and the processing protocols and shove them out into an inaccessible, imagined world external of mind, you have eliminated your capacity to protect against delusion because you have committed that discernment capacity to something entirely inaccessible, unverifiable and beyond our capacity to actually check for fidelity. Our only possible avenue of making statements about reality is if reality is mental in nature, period. I say all that to come to this: Yes, I agree; MRT reveals that ERT is prone to delusion - materialism, for example. I doubt you can see this, but that is exactly the nature of your argument against MRT; that adopting it renders the ERT perspective more prone to delusion ("you can't trust your senses or gauge errors, and it breaks down rationality.") That's actually the case you're making, even if you don't realize it. You're saying what effect MRT wiill have on the ERT perspective. And that's why your argument and objections are not actually about MRT theory; they're about the effect it would have on your ERT. But, MRT theory doesn't make ERT more prone to error, delusion and the breakdown of rational thought; it reveals those problems because ERT transposes what are necessarily mental qualities and safeguards into an imagined, inaccessible external world. Every bit of your argument, every last word, every claim, every observation, every bit of reasoning ... requires MRT. It begins and ends with the assumption of MRT and our internal capacity to successfully do the things you keep insisting require some hypothesized commodities external of mind to do. When you argue that MRT leads to delusion, you are sawing off the branch upon which you must sit in order to make your argument. There is no place else to sit except mental reality; if one cannot have confidence in their capacity to discern one set of mental experiences from another, it cannot matter if an external world exists or not.William J Murray
April 14, 2021
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WJM, of course I never said that the external physical world independent of our minds is self-evident. It is common sense to accept the general testimony of our senses, it is patent that we are consciously aware of ourselves as embodied creatures in a wider world, so we summarise C:(I UNION We). It is then a logical step or two to recognise that to doubt any of the three aspects is to undermine the conscious rational mind we must rely on and to reject grand doubt or grand delusion as absurd. That is so, but it is not instantly obvious so it is not self-evident. And as to oh you haven't been relevant, I think that I have been in fact quite relevant, including just now. There simply is no more good reason to hyperskeptically doubt the general testimony of our senses than that of our self-awareness or consciousness. The Reidian common sense approach makes excellent sense. KFkairosfocus
April 14, 2021
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BTW, KF, the existence of a world external of mind is not and can never be a "self-evident" truth. No matter how you word your ERT worldview, you cannot escape the self-evident truth that no matter where the information for our experiences comes from, all experiences occur in mind. Where that information comes from can only ever be a belief or theory.William J Murray
April 14, 2021
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KF @186: Nothing you have said about MRT has ever been relevant to it. I've attempted to inform you and correct you. I've pointed out that you've made no attempt to understand it at all, but felt entirely qualified and justified to criticize it. You're making one straw man complaint after another. Your portrayal of MRT in your arguments is an idiosyncratic ERT characterization of it, nothing more. You're not addressing the actual MRT.William J Murray
April 14, 2021
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Origens @185; Infinite (all) choices exist; I don't make that particular choice because that particular choice already exists, because every other possible choice at that location also already exists. I have all sorts of choices (that already exist at any location) that I can experience.William J Murray
April 14, 2021
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WJM, again you have mislabelled what is self evident, consciousness including awareness of experiences, memory, mental focus, intent etc, for the sum total of experience. The key point in my expression C:(I UNION We) is that our consciousness is unified and embraces the self in the world thus also the world. In this context, once one uses skeptical fallacies to radically doubt or dismiss the awareness C:(), or any major part, the self I or the world We, there are no firewalls, one is undermining the conscious mindedness required to reason regarding the self or the world we inhabit. This is self-referentially absurd. Better, is to recognise that even as error exists is undeniably true, we may err in detail but on the whole our core consciousness is veridical. That is, we are minded, embodied creatures aware of our selves and via that embodiment, we participate in a wider world, including experiences, memory, rational reflection etc. Of course, there is, e.g. a micro level reality, where macro states of bodies we interact with, find a substructure; that does not invalidate our macro experience such as of solidity. Entities that (roughly) have defined conserved shapes and volumes. Similarly, in the dark, we see the world in a greenish-grey monochrome, experiencing luminance using visual senses and [with sound colour vision] we experience colours when there is higher illumination. Likewise, the reduction of rational, responsible freedom to computation on a neural network substrate undermines rationality, that too is an error. From the Reidian common sense being outlined, we may confidently engage the world and take it seriously rather than a shadowy chaos of doubts or delusions. KFkairosfocus
April 14, 2021
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W J Murray wrote that according to MRT,
“… everything possible exists: every possibility, every choice, every action, every perspective, every variation.”
So, under MRT, a person "chooses" because the "choice" exists (or has to exist). In fact a person does not make the choice, he just the experiencer of the choice. Sure, a person may have the illusion that he is making a choice, but, in fact, the choice is "made" because without it not every possible choice exist. "Choice A" is made, because some universal necessity requires its existence —— because every choice has to exist. Because all the others choices exist, this choice has to exist also. And that's why the choice is made. IOWs choices exists not because a person freely makes a choice. Conclusion: under MRT there is no personal freedom.Origenes
April 9, 2021
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KF, Ascribing perspectives to MRT from your ERT worldview (such as, that MRT "denies" or holds as an "error" our experience of a common physical world) that it does not have, and continuing to defend your own worldview in a debate that is not about that subject, is not a sound logical argument against MRT. It just represents your apparent inability to understand that MRT does not do what you keep insisting it does, even after being corrected repeatedly. I can see why you keep insisting that MRT considers such things "self-referential," prone to delusion and some kind of major sensory "error." Like quantum theory, MRT represents a significantly different way of thinking about the nature of our physical world and the experiences we have of it. It's difficult to get out of ERT headspace and consider MRT on its own terms.William J Murray
April 9, 2021
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WJM:
I don’t see a problem. The firewalls are of course still there; they’re just not made of the same proposed stuff as the firewalls under various ERT models. IOW, as an analogy, ERT proposes the firewall is hardware; MRT proposes the firewall is software.
Empty speculation, ad hoc resort. In the one and the same moment that I am aware of myself typing, I am also just as aware of doves cooing, a rooster crowing, a car driving up the hill and the cool flow of morning air as daylight level rises. Even as I am aware of a mild headache and a complex of thoughts ticking away in the background connected to policy issues. That illustrates the unity of awareness, we focus attention, we do not have a firewall. Once a view discredits a significant sector of C:() it is undermining it. That is instantly delf-referential and crumbling into grand delusion. What makes better sense is to see that there are limited limitations as we are error prone, whilst refusing any concept that would collapse C:() into grand delusion, including by way of invited doubt. And, the suggestion, maybe there is a firewall in software then becomes selectively skeptical. We can have fallacies in reasoning and can make errors of perception etc indeed but we have no good warrant to resort to that which explicitly is or invites grand delusion. There is no good reason to reject the union, C:(I UNION We) -- on further pondering I thought + is a bit simplistic. That is, we are self aware including that we are embodied creatures with effective senses in a physically instantiated world. A world we sense through our classic five senses and have a sense of 3d location, orientation etc. Where, yes some think that raises issues on mind-body-world interaction, but the Smith, two tier controller cybernetic loop model gives a framework in which we can profitably discuss such. Particularly, once quantum influences are on the table. In short, there is more than good enough reason to take the common sense view of ourselves in our world seriously, despite the materialists/physicalists [rational freedom] and despite what seems to be idealism [awareness vs Plato's cave grand delusion]. Yes, we are error prone and sometimes irrational, sometimes mistaken, but such do not justify self-referentially incoherent burning down of the whole house to roast a pig. (The Chinese have a story on discovering roast pig and the invention that you don't have to burn a house to get the desired dish.) KFkairosfocus
April 8, 2021
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KF, So, I don't see a problem. The firewalls are of course still there; they're just not made of the same proposed stuff as the firewalls under various ERT models. IOW, as an analogy, ERT proposes the firewall is hardware; MRT proposes the firewall is software. Either way, the firewall has to provide access between self and other, so both are to some degree subject to potential corruption. That's a long way from making the case that MRT necessarily leads to greater risk of "grand delusion." After all, even the hardware firewalls are ultimately managed by software.William J Murray
April 7, 2021
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WJM, the problem is C:(I UNION We) as in C: is not divided by a firewall, whatever boundary you impose conceptually. I am aware of myself in my world, including others like myself, a unified context of life. Once you move beyond yes, there is room for detail corrections to there is a grand delusion or doubt -- much the same thing, here -- affecting a significant aspect of our awareness, you undermine the same mind, the same consciousness you must rely on. That is a form of the pronlem of one and many. KFkairosfocus
April 7, 2021
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KF: MRT doesn't doubt the conscious self-awareness of the self or of others. It doesn't doubt the existence of a physical world self and others are mutally engaged in. So, what's the problem?William J Murray
April 6, 2021
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WJM, let us symbolise, C: -> conscious awareness, I --> the self with its inner world, We --> our local world, W, any particular world, and onward. C: (I + We) Notice, the common factor, C:. If you doubt it for We, there is no firewall on I, so discredit to C: in general is fatal. Now, our reasonings and thoughts are in I, and would fall under the discredit. Including mathematics etc. Indeed, rationality, which is reflexive thus self referential. To trigger general delusion as touching any major aspect of C: is self-defeating. KFkairosfocus
April 6, 2021
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KF said:
17: Ah, a concession.
A concession? Perhaps if you haven't really been paying attention. I've said this before, right from the start. I've also said that just because something is reasonable to believe that doesn't make it (1) true, or (2) the better model. It's reasonable to believe a lot of things; that ERT is reasonable to believe in doesn't add any anything to an argument against MRT.
10: Ugly gulch fallacy, leading to grand delusion.
I'm not sure how a self-evidently true premise (all experience occurs in mind) leading to a necessarily true statement (wherever the information for those experiences come from, it is processed into experiential representations in mind) culminating in a sound conclusion (thus, any proposed "external world" is necessarily a theory about where that information comes from) can possibly represent an "ugly gulch" or a "grand delusion." The fact that it is entirely reasonable to believe that theory is true does not change the above logic that dictates it is necessarily a theory. Some theories are so well evidenced that they are considered facts, but they are still theories.
11: We have no better reason to dismiss our sense of being embodied in a physical world on the whole, than to dismiss our similar awareness that we are rational, responsible, en-conscienced, self-aware communicative creatures.
You are being vague with your wording here. "...no better reason to dismiss our sense of..." MRT doesn't ask us to dismiss any sense. " "a physical world on the whole" what does "physical world on the whole mean?" What are you specifically talking about? A material world external of mind? MRT fully accepts our sensory embodiment in a common physical world; it just accepts that world is not comprised of either matter or energy at its root; it is comprised of information. I think what this translates into is that MRT doesn't see the physical world as being comprised of what you hold it to be comprised of, and that it doesn't exist where you believe it exists; and that our senses don't operate the same way (although they produce the exact same results) as senses in your worldview. I think you're mistaking your view as the only possible arrangement that can provide a bulwark against delusion (or "grand delusion,") but outside of insisting it does, you fail to show either how it does so other than repeating claims about it (such as your above claim that it "dismisses" our embodied sensory involvement in a mutual physical world) that simply are not true. Under MRT: 1. there is an objectively existing, mutual physical world subject to scientific investigation and verification; which can be easily discerned from other mental phenomenal; 2. Other individuals with free will exist; 3. Logic and math still apply and exist as universals; 4. The self is a distinct being capable of rationally navigating both the objective physical world and other mental experiences, whether or not they are physical and mutually verifiable, living ultimately in a world of universal mind where all of this takes place and where the rules that govern everything else exist beyond the scope of any individual experience; they in fact govern and provide the ground that allows individual experience to occur at all. Nothing about that, as far as I can tell, is self-referential. Nothing about that arrangement makes logic fail or represents an ugly gulch of potential grand delusion. We're not wrong that a physical world we live in together exists; that is not what MRT claims. It just claims that the nature of that physical world is different than what we previously thought, in exactly the same manner that Newtonian physics, general relativity, or quantum experimentation, has shown us that the physical world is not, and does not operate in a manner, as what we previously believed. I await your response to the second part of my comment where I ask the questions about the ramifications of the "grand delusion" you keep referencing.William J Murray
April 6, 2021
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WJM: First up on the corrosive doubt block:
That’s all that a reality external of mind can ever be; a theory. There’s no way to directly access it. I’m not “reducing” it to a theory, MRT just recognizes that fact. All experience occurs in mind. Whether or not it is “of” something external of mind is, and can only ever be, at best, a theory. There’s no escaping that fact. It is entirely reasonable to believe in that theory, but even if everyone believes it, it’s still a theory people believe in.
Let's go in steps: >>That’s all that a reality external of mind can ever be; a theory.>> 1: Do you see what you suggest and invite? Yes, corrosive hyperskepticism, the ghost that haunts Western thought. A ghost that needs exorcism and dismissal, not entertainment. 2: Start with, we are AWARE of an external world through our consciousness, but that is the same means by which we are aware of our inner life, our mindedness. 3: That's a unity . . . and if there were a dichotomy, the door would open to the usual unbridgeable ugly gulch challenge. That's why I have kept saying, there is no firewall in the mind. 4: In short, we see self-referentiality and the problem of spreading dismissive doubt. Doubt on the whole, and grand delusion crouches at the door, a lion seeking all to devour. 5: Instead, then, we need a Reidian principle of common sense credulity. Yes, we may err in detail and can use other things to correct, especially based on what is self-evident. But to entertain doubt on the whole is self-referentially fatal and absurd. Grand delusion. 6: Anything that asserts, implies, suggests that a major faculty of conscious mind is delusional opens up spreading self-referential hyperskeptical doubt, undermining rationality itself. 7: Such can safely be dismissed as self-referentially absurd and self-falsified. 8: Once such is accepted, we have no good reason to dismiss the same on the whole awareness of the external world, than we have to dismiss our inner self awareness and rationality or for that matter the voice of sound conscience pointing to first duties. 9: Duties, that even the objector inescapably appeals to to gain rhetorical traction, in trying to dismiss them:
We can readily identify at least seven inescapable first duties of reason. "Inescapable," as they are so antecedent to reasoning that even the objector implicitly appeals to them; i.e. they are self-evident. Namely, duties, to truth, to right reason, to prudence, to sound conscience, to neighbour; so also, to fairness and justice etc. Of course, there is a linked but not equivalent pattern: bounded, error-prone rationality often tied to ill will and stubbornness or even closed mindedness; that’s why the study of right reason has a sub-study on fallacies and errors. That we sometimes seek to evade duties or may make inadvertent errors does not overthrow the first duties of reason, which instead help us to detect and correct errors, as well as to expose our follies. Perhaps, a negative form will help to clarify, for cause we find to be at best hopelessly error-riddled, those who are habitually untruthful, fallacious and/or irrational, imprudent, fail to soundly warrant claims, show a benumbed or dead conscience [i.e. sociopathy and/or highly machiavellian tendencies], dehumanise and abuse others, are unfair and unjust. At worst, such are utterly dangerous, destructive,or even ruthlessly, demonically lawless. Such built-in . . . thus, universal . . . law, then, is not invented by parliaments, kings or courts, nor can these principles and duties be abolished by such; they are recognised, often implicitly as an indelible part of our evident nature. Hence, "natural law," coeval with our humanity, famously phrased in terms of "self-evident . . . rights . . . endowed by our Creator" in the US Declaration of Independence, 1776. (Cf. Cicero in De Legibus, c. 50 BC.) Indeed, it is on this framework that we can set out to soundly understand and duly balance rights, freedoms and duties; which is justice, the pivot of law. The legitimate main task of government, then, is to uphold and defend the civil peace of justice through sound community order reflecting the built in, intelligible law of our nature. Where, as my right implies your duty a true right is a binding moral claim to be respected in life, liberty, honestly aquired property, innocent reputation etc. To so justly claim a right, one must therefore demonstrably be in the right. Likewise, Aristotle long since anticipated Pilate's cynical "what is truth?": truth says of what is, that it is; and of what is not, that it is not. [Metaphysics, 1011b, C4 BC.] Simple in concept, but hard to establish on the ground; hence -- in key part -- the duties to right reason, prudence, fairness etc. Thus, too, we may compose sound civil law informed by that built-in law of our responsibly, rationally free morally governed nature; from such, we may identify what is unsound or false thus to be reformed or replaced even though enacted under the colour and solemn ceremonies of law. The first duties, also, are a framework for understanding and articulating the corpus of built-in law of our morally governed nature, antecedent to civil laws and manifest our roots in the Supreme Law-giver, the inherently good, utterly wise and just creator-God, the necessary (so, eternal), maximally great being at the root of reality.
>> There’s no way to directly access it.>> 10: Ugly gulch fallacy, leading to grand delusion. 11: We have no better reason to dismiss our sense of being embodied in a physical world on the whole, than to dismiss our similar awareness that we are rational, responsible, en-conscienced, self-aware communicative creatures. >> I’m not “reducing” it to a theory,>> 12: That is what you argued in your opening words. >> MRT just recognizes that fact.>> 13: Theory = fact fallacy. >>All experience occurs in mind.>> 14: More exactly, experience is a conscious, self-aware, rational process, which applies to one's inner life and to one's sense of embodiment in a physical world equally. >> Whether or not it is “of” something external of mind is, and can only ever be, at best, a theory. >> 15: Oops, swivelled back again. >>There’s no escaping that fact. >> 16: Back around again. >>It is entirely reasonable to believe in that theory,>> 17: Ah, a concession. But what is the key issue, it is that we must begin with what is not susceptible of further proof and with the consciousness that is pivotal to both the experience of awareness and that of reasoning to conclusion, the general veridicality of consciousness, subject to correction in detail indeed [for, error exists is self-evident], but also anchored on self evident first facts, principles, duties etc. >> but even if everyone believes it, it’s still a theory people believe in.>> 18: We believe we are conscious, rational, self-aware, conscience guided, responsible, significantly free creatures embodied in a physical world because that is a massively evident experience and because it is grossly irrational to entertain corrosive doubt about any major facet of that whole. KFkairosfocus
April 6, 2021
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Later, I just noticed.kairosfocus
April 6, 2021
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KF, I have questions for you @173, in case you missed them.William J Murray
April 5, 2021
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Data processed into qualia eh? The objective processed into the subjective? Again, everyone must first investigate the logic used in ordinary common discourse, and then they can fantasize whatever theory they want, but then explaining the difference between their theory and the logic used in common discourse. You are not allowed to use words from common discourse, without building a bridge from the logic used in common discourse, to your new theory. So that the words can be transported, redefined in terms of your new theory. And there is no doubt about it that common discourse is based around creationist logic. Which logic works perfectly fine, which is why everyone uses it.mohammadnursyamsu
April 4, 2021
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KF said:
The substitution leads straight to the radical doubt of the common physical world we inhabit, sense and interact with.
That's all that a reality external of mind can ever be; a theory. There's no way to directly access it. I'm not "reducing" it to a theory, MRT just recognizes that fact. All experience occurs in mind. Whether or not it is "of" something external of mind is, and can only ever be, at best, a theory. There's no escaping that fact. It is entirely reasonable to believe in that theory, but even if everyone believes it, it's still a theory people believe in.
The substitution leads straight to the radical doubt of the common physical world we inhabit, sense and interact with.
It's obvious it does so for you; there is no MRT proponent I know of that doubts the "common physical world we inhabit, sense and interact with," we just hold that it is occurring in universal mind via a different process than we currently believe it to be. But I'm interested; what do you think the ramifications of this "doubt" or "grand delusion" are going to be? Let's say Jack switches from ERT to MRT; what are the consequences you're warning against? How might they manifest? Jack recognizes all of the same rules of physics, logic and mathematics; those things are real rules that govern his "objective world" experience. He can still err in his mathematics; he can still get injured or die if he ignores the physics. Jack still believes that other people are in fact other people, other self-willed individuals interacting in the same world as he. Jack can still tell the difference between dreams, imaginative fantasy, the "objective real world," memories, logic, math, etc. Can you give me some examples of how this "radical doubt" or "grand delusion" will manifest and how it will represent a problem or an issue if Jack adopts MRT?William J Murray
April 4, 2021
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