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[L&FP 39:] Implication logic is pivotal to understanding how we think as duty-bound rational creatures

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In recent months we have had several forum threads, which naturally tend to throw up onward topics worth headlining. Here, I will headline some observations on implication logic in deductive and in inductive reasoning.

However, first, the core of the logic of implication.

Implication Truth Table, notice how the only case where the implication is not true is if p is true and q false (HT Wiki)

Algebraically, p => q is analysed as ~[p AND ~q]. Interpreted, for whatever reason, p being so is sufficient for q to also be so. This compound proposition does NOT assert that p, only that p is sufficient for q. Similarly, q is NECESSARY for p, i.e. if q can be false and p true, q is not implied by p.

As a bare structure, this is termed material implication, fleshing out the why of the implication brings in issues of cause, logic of being, mathematical relations, semantics, imposed conditions in a process flow etc.

As a subtlety, if we apply this structure to the classic syllogism,

A: Socrates is a man
B: Men are mortal
_____________________
C: Socrates is mortal

. . . we will see that p = [A AND B] with p => q entails that

[A => q and/or B => q ]

It turns out, yes. The propositions in the syllogism overlap and interact, one draws out and applies a meaning implicit in the other. The set, men is a subset of the set, mortals. That Socrates is a man only stipulates that Socrates is a member of that subset of mortals. Socrates is a man is sufficient for his mortality, and Men are mortal is sufficient for any particular case of man to be mortal. Syllogisms and implications interact in unexpected ways, sometimes. But that is where insights surface.

Yes, too, a similar analysis can be done on the truth table equivalent form, ~p AND/OR q; as is shown. (I here emphasise the inclusive or rather than the exclusive one [XOR], vel not aut as Latin distinguishes.)

The second form surfaces a hidden property, the principle of explosion.

A false antecedent, p, can and does often entail a true consequent q; however it is also prone to imply false ones. A true antecedent will only imply true consequents. That is a key property, truth preservation. Also, this is where ex falso quodlibet comes from: when p is [x AND ~x], it materially entails anything, becoming an expression of meaninglessness. That said, in modelling we often pose a “simplified” antecedent to derive correct results in a tested zone of reliability.

That becomes important in science and engineering. In the latter as models are a major design technique. In science as we see that hypotheses and theories are not shown to be strictly true by predictive success, only to be empirically reliable in a given domain of successful testing. Our confidence in theories ought to be tempered by the concept that a scientific law, hypothesis or theory boils down to being at best an empirically reliable, possibly true model. Sometimes, not even that. (The pessimistic induction that across times many grand theories generally taken as true failed empirically, beckons.)

With that in mind, we now may clip our comment of interest, to see how implication works out on the ground so to speak. Here, I assert that “[t]he role of implication logic is central, both as proof structure and explanation structure.” Expanding:

[Law/Duty thread, 1184;] Where, p => q, we are often tempted to reason
p => q but I reject q, so I reject p,
however, when p is self-evident, that rejection clings to absurdity:
I reject p, but p is self evident means ~p is absurd [in various ways]

However, we can arbitrarily redefine terms, manipulate opinion, play lawfare, build up corrupted systems and the like to support ~p, especially when entrenched interests and ideological agendas are at stake. History since 1789 and especially from 1917 speaks on this in rivers of blood and tears.

Such leads to a breakdown of rationality, organisations, societies and more.

Likewise, where q is a composite of observations o1, o2 . . . on
We may ask, which p currently best explains such of p1, p2 . . . pm
At an earlier stage, we may examine the set of observations to sketch out possible explanations.

This is abductive reasoning, a key form of modern sense inductive logic.

We propose criteria of ranking, typically tied to factual adequacy, coherence and balanced explanatory power [ elegantly simple, not simplistic or ad hoc]

This introduces issues of discernment and judgement as is typical of inductive reasoning

In this process, self evident first principles and duties are involved but are not generally sufficient to determine the overall decision. Prudence becomes pivotal and so the habitual discipline to build it up is vital to intellectual thriving.

Factual adequacy is an appeal to truth [and, when is a claimed fact so is material].

Coherence is an appeal to right reason and principles of logic including distinct identity and close corollaries non contradiction and excluded middle.

Explanatory balance involves discernment and the whole involves prudence including the judgement when a conclusion is well warranted.

So, when such are systematically undermined in a culture, the ability to think reliably and soundly is undermined.

For practical import, look all around.

We now see how first duties of reason pervade real world rational inference. First, in logic of implication, with p as a self-evident truth as a key special case. If you doubt the reality of self-evidence, let me add a further clip to show by example that self-evident truths do exist:

[Laws/duties, 1172:] 1] || + ||| –> |||||, symbolically, 2 + 3 = 5; undeniable on pain of absurdity and demonstrating that the class is non-empty. Split your fingers into a two set and a three set, join them as a five set.

2] The Josiah Royce proposition: E – error exists. This is manifestly familiar from sums exercises with red X’s. But it is not just a massively empirically supported truth and one that is a general consensus. It is undeniable. Let the denial be ~E. Already to assert ~E entails, it would be an error to assert E. So, undeniably, E. E is true, undeniably, necessarily, self evidently true. It is also warranted to incorrigible certainty. It is empirically discoverable and a widespread consensus. It is known truth. Accordingly, general skepticism denying possibility of knowledge, fails. So do radical relativism and subjectivism, which deny the possibility of objectively warranted and undeniably demonstrated knowledge.

3] Moral case study and yardstick I: it is self evidently wrong, willfully wicked, inherently criminal and evil to kidnap, bind, sexually torture and murder a young child for one’s pleasure. Those who deny or dismiss or evade this do not overthrow the truth, they simply reveal their absurdities or worse. This also shows that the weak and inarticulate have rights and are owed justice. Might does not make right, manipulation does not make rights out of thin air.

Next, in abductive form inductive reasoning. The evaluation of which candidate explanation best accounts for empirical observations draws on appeals to first duties of reason even more intensely than deductive forms that rely on our implicitly accepted duties to truth and rationality, prudence and so too warrant.

Yes, things are that dire. We need to go back to and start afresh from clarifying ABC first principles to sort out where we are; when as a civilisation we ought instead to have long since been a shining example and teacher to the world. END

PS: Just to make it crystal clear where this leads, first the plumb line test:

So, too, for example, we see the first truths of logic:

And, here are more, set in the context of first duties of reason . . . unlike a computer or a rock, we can choose to disregard logic, truth, prudence etc:

Inescapable? The objector, to gain rhetorical traction invariably appeals to our implicit recognition of the first duties, and the one who tries to prove them does so too. These are therefore first duties that pervade reasoning and by and large move us to acknowledge them (save when it is too inconvenient).

Comments
Creationist conceptual scheme 1. Creator / chooses / spiritual / opinion 2. Creation / chosen / material / fact So it is shown, creationism covers all facts, all science, not just biology, and all personal opinions as well (like opinion on beauty) Which means intelligent design, and literally everything else, is a subset of creationism. Intelligent design beins some particular sophisticated decisionmaking processes.mohammadnursyamsu
March 22, 2021
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A newly invented part leads to suboptimal design in the rest of the product. Sort of obvious. It is not getting to the core of intelligent design, the actual intelligent decisionmaking processes by which a product is formed. Do you suppose the human mind is an extension of the DNA information processing system, or do you suppose the human mind is a development of the DNA system, just like arms and legs are developments?mohammadnursyamsu
March 22, 2021
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I said:
>>We don’t have a clue what causes it, [gravity]>>
KF responded:
8: Space warping by masses.
How does mass warp space? You are referring to a descriptive model s if that descriptive model is the cause. "Mass warping space" is just another of a long line of gravitational descriptive models; nobody knows what causes gravity, or why anything like it should exist at all. Gravity, like all forces, laws, energies and even "matter," are obviously rendered by abstract programming utilizing mathematical algorithms acting on informational data sets. We discovered a lot of the programming code when we discovered the mathematical formulas that govern these renderings.William J Murray
March 22, 2021
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MNY, actually no, kindly research TRIZ https://www.triz.org/triz/ . KFkairosfocus
March 21, 2021
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The straightforward thing to do, would be to investigate how intelligent design by people works. And with that knowledge of how intelligent design works, try to find the intelligent designing by which organisms were created. Just as Paley correctly inferred intelligent design of organisms in nature, by first looking at human intelligent design. But strangely, intelligent design theorists, do not look at how intelligent designing by people works. If we would look at how intelligent design by people works, then we would end up with theory of DNA as being an insipient mind. DNA as being an information processing system. Which would lead to theory about the DNA configuration being dreamt up in the DNA system, by intelligent design. Not that this would be the end result finding, but that is how it would go.mohammadnursyamsu
March 21, 2021
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SA2, if they were shown correct of course. Which is the same issue as showing the signs to not be reliable. Such is abstractly possible but on search challenge the design inference on FSCO/I is comparably as reliable as the second law of thermodynamics. The same issue of relative statistical weights in very large configuration or phase spaces obtains. KFkairosfocus
March 21, 2021
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Kairosfocus “ when significant Creationists reject the pivot of design theory, then Creationism cannot be taken as a simple subset of design theory. ” So, if these creationist are ultimately proven to be correct, yet God is proven to be the designer, you will admit that ID was wrong?Steve Alten2
March 21, 2021
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WJM: >>What is a “physical law,” like gravity,>> 1: At first level, a tested, reliable summary of an observed pattern in events/processes in the world as experienced. 2: At second level, an empirically correlated postulate within an explanatory framework, generally with descriptive elements and often with kinetic or dynamic and/or stochastic change processes, save for those that focus on conserved quantities and equilibria. 3: At third level, a summary of a process connected to parameters and/or to logic of being that often summarises quantifiable patterns in the world. 4: E.g. E + W = h*f, which was a key part of Einstein's Nobel Prize. Here, maximum observed kinetic energy of a photo-electron plus work function [energy to escape the surface] is available energy from the photon. The photon is the frequency-tied energy of lumps of light . . . light comes in lumps, Planck was right. This energy has to knock the electron out and give it kinetic energy. Hence, threshold frequency where hf = W. >>and how is that phenomena we experience behaves in such a precise, mathematical way?>> 5: in some cases, quantitative aspects of logic of being, in others as seen, conservation processes with things such as energy. In others, accumulative effects dependent on intensity of a change driver vs degree of inertia to be affected. Superpositions, reinforcements and cancellations count [e.g. refraction, reflection of light tied to interactions with material media]. Stochastic effects can come from sensitive dependence on initial conditions [toss a die], or from a large number of interactions in varied degrees [normal distributions, thermal distributions], threshold effects [chemical and nuclear reactions] and more. >> When we say gravity causes behavior, we are erroneously reifying an abstract model of behavior>> 6: Often loose speaking. Massive objects warp space, that warping is sensed as gravity forces. Magnetic forces by contrast boil down to residuals of Coulomb [similar space influence forces] forces from relative motion, why they are associated with velocities not accelerations. Again, much more. >> for the cause of the behavior itself. Gravity doesn’t cause any behavior; it is the model of the behavior. >> 7: As we report it in equations, yes, however we can observe warping, e,g, 1919 and the displacement of apparent star locations as light is bent around the sun. At grander level gravitational lenses are seen with galaxies. >>We don’t have a clue what causes it, >> 8: Space warping by masses. >>or why the behavior is precise in relation to an abstract set of rules.>> 9: The warping is spatial and quantitative tied to how much mass is in a star or galaxy, etc. That correlates with matter and of course points to dark matter etc. Which we still haven't figured out. KFkairosfocus
March 21, 2021
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SA2, when significant Creationists reject the pivot of design theory, then Creationism cannot be taken as a simple subset of design theory. There are overlaps, certain Creationists also accept the design inference and its value, but significant others reject it and design theory. Intersecting sets with members outside the intersection are not subsets, period. As for the notion or suggestion that my summary of ID is idiosyncratic, that simply tells us you do not understand what ID as to core nature is. I already gave the NWE encyclopedia summary, which is referred to by the link Wiki used to snip-snipe. I now turn to UD's own summary:
The theory of intelligent design (ID) holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained [--> abductive form, inductive logic per, inference to the best explanation] by an intelligent cause rather than an undirected process such as natural selection. [--> notice, inference is to design, the process evident in reliable signs, not to any particular candidate designer] ID is thus a scientific disagreement with the core claim of evolutionary theory that the apparent design of living systems is an illusion. [--> this is certainly the institutionally dominant school of thought regarding origin of life, origin of multicellular life, origin of body plans, origin of man and of human intelligence] In a broader sense, Intelligent Design is simply the science of design detection — how to recognize patterns arranged by an intelligent cause for a purpose. [--> notice, detection of design on observation of signs associated with intelligently directed configuration] Design detection is used in a number of scientific fields, including anthropology, forensic sciences that seek to explain the cause of events such as a death or fire, cryptanalysis and the search for extraterrestrial intelligence (SETI). An inference that certain biological information may be the product of an intelligent cause can be tested or evaluated in the same manner as scientists daily test for design in other sciences.[--> testability] ID is controversial because of the implications of its evidence, rather than the significant weight of its evidence. [--> correct] ID proponents believe science should be conducted objectively, without regard to the implications of its findings. This is particularly necessary in origins science because of its historical (and thus very subjective) nature, and because it is a science that unavoidably impacts religion. Positive evidence of design in living systems consists of the semantic, meaningful or functional nature of biological information, the lack of any known law that can explain the sequence of symbols that carry the “messages,” and statistical and experimental evidence that tends to rule out chance as a plausible explanation.
[--> FSCO/I beyond 500 - 1,000 bits, cf the uncontroversial Nobel Prize-winning discovery of string data structure, algorithmic coded information in the cell and its central role in life, thus also language, goal-directed complex process, specific cases where the complexity is irreducible in the sense that multiple well matched parts are each necessary for function, etc]
Other evidence challenges the adequacy of natural or material causes to explain both the origin and diversity of life. SOURCE: http://intelligentdesignnetwork.org/
Likewise, intelligent design dot org:
Intelligent design refers to a scientific research program as well as a community of scientists, philosophers and other scholars who seek evidence of design in nature. The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection. Through the study and analysis of a system’s components, a design theorist is able to determine whether various natural structures are the product of chance, natural law, intelligent design, or some combination thereof. Such research is conducted by observing the types of information produced when intelligent agents act. Scientists then seek to find objects which have those same types of informational properties which we commonly know come from intelligence. Intelligent design has applied these scientific methods to detect design in irreducibly complex biological structures, the complex and specified information content in DNA, the life-sustaining physical architecture of the universe, and the geologically rapid origin of biological diversity in the fossil record during the Cambrian explosion approximately 530 million years ago. See the New World Encyclopedia entry on intelligent design. [MORE . . . ]
The accuracy of my outline and the relevance of my clip from NWE above are clear. I now correct your argument: >>1. ID believes that an intelligent agent is the best explanation for life.>> a - strawman, the empirical sign-based inference at the core of design theory is to design, a causal process rather than a causal agent, and not any particular agent b - design, per observation, is generally produced by intelligence; however, there are various possibilities as to intelligence, starting with other agents than humans, beavers etc within our cosmos, to a built in intelligence as part of the cosmos itself, to gods, to God. Intelligence is not even synonymous with consciousness. Indeed, as an active participant here advocates, one view is there is mind and there is no independent physical world to be actually observed, in effect it is a simulation, though that may be too crude a term. c - such are onward issues. >>2. Creationists believe that God, an intelligent agent, is the best explanation for life.>> d - Creationists are theists and hold that God is an agent distinct from and cause of the observed cosmos, which has independence and in which there are created agents. As a part of this, biological life and embodied agents are explained by that creation. e - An important subset further hold that the creator gave an outline report which is available to us in writing. [There are at least two different main writings in view, correlated in the first instance to the Judaeo-Christian tradition and in the second to the Islamic one, which on its own terms, Surah 29 ff, holds itself to be partly corrective to the former, held to have been significantly corrupted. There may be forms of Hinduism etc that might also fit in but that is not central here.] f - The point where overlap as opposed to subset emerges, is where certain Creationists of note specifically reject the design inference and/or the design inference research programme. (Which BTW, despite extreme hostility and dubious censorship, now has several dozen peer reviewed articles published over coming on 20 years.) >>3. Since ID’s view is much broader in that it does not limit the intelligent agent to the God of creationists, and since ID does not exclude creationism as a possibility, creationism clearly is a subset of ID.>> g - error carried forward. h - by missing the core characteristics and focus of design theory, pivoting on the design inference on sign that holds that things with such signs are best explained as designed . . . process . . . an improper conflation has been made. KFkairosfocus
March 21, 2021
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From an information perspective objects consist of the laws of nature, like the law of gravity. Then as laws unto themselves the objects exhibit freedom. The objects have arms of alternative possibilities values for their parameters, stretched out into the future, which future they anticipate. Then from one moment to the next, one of the alternative futures is made the present, meaning it is decided. And the parameters are computed with the laws of nature, producing the new state of the object. Then the objects have new possibilities for their new situation.mohammadnursyamsu
March 21, 2021
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W.J. Murray wrote:
So, one might describe it this way: universal consciousness is having a dream where it perceives experiences as countless interacting dream avatars in a dream world. It is entirely consciousness processing infinite arrangements of information into every possible experience.
For clarity, did you mean to write: "It is entirely consciousnessly processing ..."?
So, it’s rather obfuscating to say we have individual minds; we have, to one degree or another, individual informational structures that identify us as distinct from other individuals, but we’re all actually experiencing the same universal mind.
Are you saying that each one of us is actually the universal mind who is having a narrowing of consciousness?Origenes
March 21, 2021
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Kairosfocus@30 disagrees that Creationism is a subset of ID. His disagreement revolves around the fact that some creationists disagree that some of the tools used by other IDists have the probative value that some think they do. That does not place them outside the ID tent, it just places them at a disagreement with Kairosfocus’ view of ID. 1. ID believes that an intelligent agent is the best explanation for life. 2. Creationists believe that God, an intelligent agent, is the best explanation for life. 3. Since ID’s view is much broader in that it does not limit the intelligent agent to the God of creationists, and since ID does not exclude creationism as a possibility, creationism clearly is a subset of ID. 4. I can’t believe I am supporting ET. :)Steve Alten2
March 21, 2021
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You want to use implication logic, let's use it, and use it honestly. What is a "physical law," like gravity, and how is that phenomena we experience behaves in such a precise, mathematical way? When we say gravity causes behavior, we are erroneously reifying an abstract model of behavior for the cause of the behavior itself. Gravity doesn't cause any behavior; it is the model of the behavior. We don't have a clue what causes it, or why the behavior is precise in relation to an abstract set of rules. The implication here is obvious: gravitational phenomena behaves in a precise, mathematical way because it is coded, or programmed, to behave that way. How is "fine tuning" or, for that matter, any "tuning" at all instantiated? How else do you explain physical entities behaving according to entirely abstract rules? How can you get "matter" to behave in a mathematically precise fashion? What's moving it? What's keeping it on track? What is coordinating experiences between observers? When you have a common dream, does gravity actually exist in that dream world? Do physics actually determine why, in a regular video game, the characters and objects in the world seem to behave according to physics? These patterns of experiential phenomena are generated by rulesets, by shared algorithmic protocols being applied to shared datasets. Universal forces and laws, energy, the Fibonnaci sequence and other repeated patterns we find in nature - the implication is that they are artifacts of coding protocols and algorithms used to translate a common dataset into common experiences under a particular ruleset.William J Murray
March 21, 2021
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Origenes, KF keeps tilting at a straw man windmill. There's a reason I don't say "your" mind or "my mind." In my MRT, we begin with mind - you might call it "universal mind." It is the entirety of all existence. There are different categories of "stuff" in universal mind. One category of things in mind are "individual consciously aware experiencers," or "individual consciously aware perspectives." Any individual, consciously aware experiencer requires two things; a "self" and an "other," or the experiencer and the experienced; two sides (subject/context) of the same coin: the experience. How can we model this usefully? I use the following model: Universal mind is "all possible information and arrangements and interpretations thereof." What defines a "self" and its necessary context as described above? Aware consciousness (as opposed to the subconscious or unconscious) itself is ineffable in any existential model, MRT or ERT; it is that which has the experience. Under MRT, consciousness selects and arranges information into the two aspects of an experience; what it perceives as "self" and that which it perceives as "other." A readily available example of this would be what occurs in a dream. So, one might describe it this way: universal consciousness is having a dream where it perceives experiences as countless interacting dream avatars in a dream world. It is entirely consciousness processing infinite arrangements of information into every possible experience. At the individual level, we are particular experiences of "self and other." So, it's rather obfuscating to say we have individual minds; we have, to one degree or another, individual informational structures that identify us as distinct from other individuals, but we're all actually experiencing the same universal mind. Bernardo Kastrup characterizes this as a kind of universal dissociative identity disorder, formerly known as having multiple personalities. In fact, psychology is one of the disciplines he uses to support his MRT. He has some rather shocking clinical examples of how different personalities manifested measurably different physical states in the patients, such as changes in eye color, and one personality being diabetic and another not. People that share what we call "a physical world external of mind" - how they see the same word at the beginning of the title of this post - is because they, as individuals, share a substantial set of information and the programs (algorithms) that process that information into experience. A good way of understanding this is by using the example of a virtual world game. Millions of people can put on a VR headset and experience the same 3D experiential "external" world. What is going on here is that a common data set is being processed through the same program that provides for coordinated, correlating experiences among all participants. Their avatars in the VR world are also being generated from the shared data set as is the "world" around them. So, from this perspective, we have a set of coordinated, corroborative experiences not because there is an actual, physical world external of mind, but because we are accessing a common set of data being interpreted and correlated by a common set of processing programs and protocols. Variances between participants might be called individual customizations. There are also all kinds of data sets and processing protocols that are separate from this particular "common physical experience" module. Here's the rimshot: everything I just described in terms of common data set and shared processing protocols that exist in our "minds" must exist even if there is an actual world external of mind or else we would not have confirmable, coordinated experiences. MRT theory just disposes of what is an entirely unnecessary, extraneous "third party" domain of existence.William J Murray
March 21, 2021
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The Great Courses has a course on Logic which is on sale today. The video download is $49 for 24 lectures. https://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses/an-introduction-to-formal-logic On effective reasoning https://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses/argumentation-the-study-of-effective-reasoning-2nd-editionjerry
March 21, 2021
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Kairosfocus, I agree with you on the absurdity of the attempt to reduce the existence of a world independent from our individual experiences to a grand delusion. However W.J. Murray has stated several times that this is not part of his agenda —— see e.g. #26. I am genuinely curious to find out how he pictures this independent world to be "mental", or, put another way, to be "not outside of mind."Origenes
March 21, 2021
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As far as I can tell, your assertion is that what is illogical, is also immoral. A logic error is a moral error. It is just a category error, confusing objectivity with subjectivity.mohammadnursyamsu
March 21, 2021
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F/N: Britannica has a good 101 on implication https://www.britannica.com/topic/implication KFkairosfocus
March 21, 2021
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Origenes, there has been a long tradition since Plato's parable of the cave, up to today's the matrix, of posing scenarios on which our collective experience based knowledge of the world is reduced to grand delusion. The implication is then drawn, see you cannot prove we don't live in a delusion [which is observationally more or less equivalent to the conventional view, at least for those still in the chains or the pods etc]. This then bolsters the tendency to hyperskepticism and even cynicism that haunts our civilisation's intellectual history, tied to the demand for utterly certain proof for essentially any inconvenient knowledge claim one is inclined to doubt. What allowed me to break out of it, was to recognise that grand delusion claims undermine rationality and so reasoning and knowledge, thus are self-referentially incoherent through an infinite regress of successive doubts. If we are all delusional, why isn't the claim that one's scenario undermines the conventional wisdom also delusional? After all, GIGO is there, and there are no firewalls in our rationality. So, on worldview level inference to best explanation, grand delusion proposals are fatally incoherent and are absurd, thus are explanatory failures coming out the starting gates. Reidian common good sense makes far better sense, in terms of the heuristics that are defeatable in detail allowing corrective refinement, but on the whole are safe ground as their claimed blanket falsification is self-referentially self-defeating. So, we are back to Locke's observation. KF PS: Locke on the candle within, in intro to essay on human understanding, section 5:
[Essay on Human Understanding, Intro, Sec 5:] Men have reason to be well satisfied with what God hath thought fit for them, since he hath given them (as St. Peter says [NB: i.e. 2 Pet 1:2 - 4]) pana pros zoen kaieusebeian, whatsoever is necessary for the conveniences of life and information of virtue; and has put within the reach of their discovery, the comfortable provision for this life, and the way that leads to a better. How short soever their knowledge may come of an universal or perfect comprehension of whatsoever is, it yet secures their great concernments [Prov 1: 1 - 7], that they have light enough to lead them to the knowledge of their Maker, and the sight of their own duties [cf Rom 1 - 2, Ac 17, etc, etc]. Men may find matter sufficient to busy their heads, and employ their hands with variety, delight, and satisfaction, if they will not boldly quarrel with their own constitution, and throw away the blessings their hands are filled with, because they are not big enough to grasp everything . . . It will be no excuse to an idle and untoward servant [Matt 24:42 - 51], who would not attend his business by candle light, to plead that he had not broad sunshine. The Candle that is set up in us [Prov 20:27] shines bright enough for all our purposes . . . If we will disbelieve everything, because we cannot certainly know all things, we shall do muchwhat as wisely as he who would not use his legs, but sit still and perish, because he had no wings to fly.
Sobering.kairosfocus
March 21, 2021
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W.J. Murray wrote:
“The burden lies on those that hypothesize a world external of mind, not on those who make no such hypothesis but rather admit what is existentially true: these experiences occur in mind.”
1. All experience is individual; starts with “I”, never “we”. 2. All participants of this thread experience “Implication” as the first word of the title. 3. Therefor there is a world external to the individual minds of the participants, which independently informs the experience of them all.
(...) “independent of individual minds” does not mean “outside of mind.”
How do you picture this independent world not to be "outside of mind"?Origenes
March 21, 2021
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F/N: In a sense, it is a pity that the main line of comments above is largely tangential. I draw attention to the OP on how core first duties of reason work with deductive and inductive frames for the logic of implication, and how self-evident truths can be seen as demonstrated. I/l/o the issues with WJM, I note that many objections to sound conscience [which unquestionably testifies to obligations] imply delusion which would pervade our mindedness. The testimony of conscience regarding that sadly murdered child stands as self-evident truth on pain of immediate absurdity of undermining credibility of the mind. But then, that same absurdity is precisely the fatal crack in the foundation of modern evolutionary materialistic scientism, which has not prevented it from gaining dominance. That says much about our civilisation, none of it good. KFkairosfocus
March 21, 2021
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WJM, I repeat, the fatal ambiguity in the term, preference, makes it ill adapted to clarity on this matter. I recall here a case of a man who had a relationship with a most attractive but unsuitable lady; who tried to outright seduce him. He was of course, very inclined to give in, but refused, explaining to her that it was a matter of the good of their souls. Choice, per duty, often runs directly counter to preference as inclination, or even overwhelming desire. KFkairosfocus
March 21, 2021
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SA2, Let me start with the current state of the Wikipedia pseudo-knowledge on ID, from its opening words, as key background -- we will correct the accusations and errors later on:
Intelligent design (ID) is a pseudoscientific argument for the existence of God, presented by its proponents as "an evidence-based scientific theory about life's origins".[1][2][3][4][5] Proponents claim that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection."[6] ID is a form of creationism that lacks empirical support and offers no testable or tenable hypotheses, and is therefore not science.[7][8][9] The leading proponents of ID are associated with the Discovery Institute, a Christian, politically conservative think tank based in the United States.[n 1]
Now, let us observe your reaction above to my comment to MNY and that to ET, that ID is in fact not a subset of Creationism. In 18, I briefly noted to MNY, "actually, there is overlap but not a subset status." To ET, 19, just as briefly, "I think there are creationists who violently dismiss the design inference approach. Hence, overlap." Your response:
[20:] Their may be creationists that don’t agree with the design inference approach, but I think that most IDists believe that creationism clearly falls within the ID concept. Maybe it would be clearer if you could mention a creationist idea that is incompatible with ID.
I am pretty sure you know the context as already given in the clip from Wikipedia, so your last sentence is regrettably loaded. The key issue is orientation. Creationists focus on God as creator, thus by definition designer. Some, as I went on to note, have a perspective that curiously overlaps with certain theistic evolutionists, though from very differing angles: they hold that we cannot infer soundly or reliably on the past of origins from present empirical evidence. To access the origin accurately, we must consult the designer's report. Oddly, many evolutionary materialists also start with a prior commitment, as Lewontin and Crick et al document: a priori materialism on imagined grounds that anything else undermines scientific investigation. The design inference does not begin there, with designers or an a priori essentially ideological locking in of evolutionary materialism. Instead, it starts with Newton's principle that to responsibly scientifically address what we cannot directly observe, we should explain in terms of factors we can observe that have demonstrated power to cause the like effects. Thus, we look to things like FSCO/I in its various forms, or to fine tuned, mutually closely adapted systems built up from or analysable in terms of parts and facets and ask, what accounts for such features? For example, cell based life uses complex algorithmic code stored in strings and associated execution machinery based on C-chem, aqueous medium molecular, folded polymer nanotech. In turn, we inhabit a cosmos fine tuned so that even the first four elements set up that: H, He, O, C. N is close by. Where, the very first fine tuning observation, is the resonance that leads to the O & C pattern. Stars, gateway to the rest of the periodic table, water, organic chemistry, N accounting for proteins. Many more details can be added. It is readily recognised that code-bearing [so, linguistic] algorithmically functional [so, goal-directed] complex strings beyond 500 - 1,000 bits [so, beyond credible search capability of the sol system or observed cosmos] have just one empirically warranted source, intelligent design. Further to this, the blind search challenge readily overwhelms a sol system of 10^57 atoms in an observed cosmos of 10^80, with ~ 10^17 s on the clock and plausible organic chem reaction rates. Design, as credible causal process -- note, process -- is the best, empirically warranted explanation for such effects. Where, FSCO/I [abbrev: functionally specific, complex organisation and/or associated information] and associated phenomena are highly reliable observed signs of design as cause. Where also, as we are patently contingent beings, we cannot credibly exhaust the list of possible designers. (The very existence of a Sci Fi literature and the SETI search should suffice to show how artful that frequently met objection is.) So, Creationism and Design Theory have a very different focus. Some creationists are also design thinkers, others are not. There are design thinkers who are not creationists, and some are not theists. The strawmannish caricature painted by Wikipedia and the like already stands exposed. Let us note: 1: Science/pseudoscience is generally not a helpful terminology as it tends to pivot on ideology and a priori materialistic commitment [often thinly veiled as a mere methodical constraint] rather than how empirically based inductive inferences are warranted. 2: In fact, there is no one size fits all and only Science, scientific method. That is, there is no unique method specific to the conventionally labelled sciences and beyond which there is an ugly gulch on the other side of which lie inferior grade studies. 3: That is, responsible empirically grounded, inductive methods do exist, and are applicable to the sciences, but are equally applicable in other fields of responsible investigation, even as the methods -- note the plural -- used in the lab and the field for the conventionally labelled sciences do not include elements that uniquely tie these sciences together. 4: Lab-based investigations [cf much of physics and chemistry], observational studies [starting with the root science, Astronomy], field studies [e.g. geology], simulation studies, etc overlap into other domains of practice and do not extend across the full span of the different sciences. Historical-forensic methods are even a part of science, starting with the testimony implicit in lab or observatory notebooks. 5: Mathematics, handmaiden of the sciences, is in the main, not an inductive, experimental or observational investigation. That is, the structure of warrant pivots on creating axiomatic systems and articulating a network of theorems from such. Of course, there are explorations, conjectures, bodies of lore that have not been systematised etc. And yet, core Mathematical findings are more strongly established than scientific theories. 6: It can thus be readily seen that there is no hard and fast border -- demarcation line/criterion -- between science and alleged pseudo-science. Error and fraud occurs within science, some scientific findings are better warranted than others, responsible methods used in sciences are not unique to the sciences. 7: Wikipedia's hostile tone from its opening words reflect ideological hostility not sober minded analysis and balance. 8: ID is not at root a theory on life's origins, though that is a major application. The core issue -- which even Wikipedia used to note -- is the matter of inference to design as causal process on reliable, empirically grounded signs. 9: The remark on best explanation points to abductive, inductive reasoning on empirically observed, tested, reliable signs, but of course that import is suppressed in haste to conflate with creationism, long since stigmatised as pseudoscience. This is irresponsible, accusatory rhetoric posing as established knowledge, i.e. the accusation of pseudo-science [literally, false knowledge] is confession by projection to the despised other. 10: As to the no-evidence claim, that is an outright lie. The evidence of FSCO/I and its reliably observed cause along with search challenge analysis are evidence. Elsewhere at Wikipedia, we can see the infinite monkeys challenge, as inadvertent testimony against ideological interest:
The infinite monkey theorem states that a monkey hitting keys at random on a typewriter keyboard for an infinite amount of time will almost surely type any given text, such as the complete works of William Shakespeare. In fact, the monkey would almost surely type every possible finite text an infinite number of times. However, the probability that monkeys filling the entire observable universe would type a single complete work, such as Shakespeare's Hamlet, is so tiny that the chance of it occurring during a period of time hundreds of thousands of orders of magnitude longer than the age of the universe is extremely low (but technically not zero). In this context, "almost surely" is a mathematical term with a precise meaning, and the "monkey" is not an actual monkey, but a metaphor for an abstract device that produces an endless random sequence of letters and symbols. One of the earliest instances of the use of the "monkey metaphor" is that of French mathematician Émile Borel in 1913,[1] but the first instance may have been even earlier . . . . [buried deep therein, we see:] The theorem concerns a thought experiment which cannot be fully carried out in practice, since it is predicted to require prohibitive amounts of time and resources. Nonetheless, it has inspired efforts in finite random text generation. One computer program run by Dan Oliver of Scottsdale, Arizona, according to an article in The New Yorker, came up with a result on 4 August 2004: After the group had worked for 42,162,500,000 billion billion monkey-years, one of the "monkeys" typed, "VALENTINE. Cease toIdor:eFLP0FRjWK78aXzVOwm)-‘;8.t" The first 19 letters of this sequence can be found in "The Two Gentlemen of Verona". Other teams have reproduced 18 characters from "Timon of Athens", 17 from "Troilus and Cressida", and 16 from "Richard II".[26] A website entitled The Monkey Shakespeare Simulator, launched on 1 July 2003, contained a Java applet that simulated a large population of monkeys typing randomly, with the stated intention of seeing how long it takes the virtual monkeys to produce a complete Shakespearean play from beginning to end. For example, it produced this partial line from Henry IV, Part 2, reporting that it took "2,737,850 million billion billion billion monkey-years" to reach 24 matching characters: RUMOUR. Open your ears; 9r"5j5&?OWTY Z0d . . .
11: 24 ASCII characters involves 7 x 24 = 168 bits, a config space of 3.74 * 10^50, a FACTOR of about 10^100 short of the 3.27*10^150 configs for 500 bits. 1,000 bits implies 1.07*10^301 configs. In short, we here see how blind search is overwhelmed long before it can credibly discover a first shoreline of complex configuration based function. The cosmos scope search on available resources rounds down to negligible search. 12: Obviously, the second Wikipedia article reports an unacknowledged empirical test of the design inference, as we have pointed out here at UD for many years. In general, the generation of 500 bits of FSCO/I by genuine blind chance and/or mechanical necessity would shatter the core sign that is used to infer design as cause. 13: ID is eminently testable, has been tested many times on this central claim and it stands confident on its strength. We therefore find a second pivotal lie in the opening paragraph of the Wikipedia ID article. 14: The Discovery Institute, of course, is not a specifically Christian organisation, but rather a generally libertarian thinktank. There are fellows and leading figures who are Christian, and others who are not. So, we can readily see here a "right wing theocratic Christofascist" strawman caricature and smear. KFkairosfocus
March 21, 2021
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Polistra @28, Yep. Not to mention guns.William J Murray
March 21, 2021
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How will this prevent demons from running a worldwide holocaust? Demons don't need logic. They have blackmail.polistra
March 20, 2021
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Conscience varies from individual to individual; that all sentient beings make conscious, deliberate choices ultimately out of preference is absolute and inescapable.William J Murray
March 20, 2021
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KF k@14 said:
WJM, that is what has been promoted and used to create plausibility for hyperskepticism.
It doesn't matter what it has been promoted and used to create; it's an inescapable fact of free will. We choose, ultimately, what we prefer, even when we abstain from direct pleasure or profit for the sake of some abstract concept of what is "right."
That is far from reducing it to delusion.
Nobody said that it was "reduced to delusion." You're conflating different things; (1) the admission and recognition of the fact that all experiences occur in mind, and that scientific experiments have shown that mind is fundamental to everything we experience; and (2) "delusion."
Our sight, hearing, touch can err but are generally credible.
More conflation of different things. Nobody is saying that our senses are not credible; what has been demonstrated untrue is the inferential, hypothetical model that describes the nature of what our senses are and what they are accessing.
The benefit of the doubt and burden to show otherwise [with caveat on grand delusion] rightly rest there.
The burden lies on those that hypothesize a world external of mind, not on those who make no such hypothesis but rather admit what is existentially true: these experiences occur in mind. You don't get an entire additional order of existence for free just because that is the conventional way of interpreting those experiences and a whole catechism of logical inferences has been built from that inference.
Our senses and judgement need not be infallible to have earned a right to be taken as generally credible. The alternative being absurd. Which does not reduce to logical incoherence. ,
You're making straw man arguments. Nobody said anything about the fallibility of our senses and judgement. The argument at hand has nothing whatsoever to do with that. Also, you don't get a pass on meeting your challenges just because your senses, conscience or interpretations thereof are "credible." Lots of things are credible; that doesn't mean your claims about them hold up to logical criticism or scientific evidence.
WJM, oftentimes, one is most disinclined to do the duty but chooses because it is right. That is part of why I think preference language is not helpful
On balance of inclinations, they prefer to do what their choosing system points at as "right." This is inescapable. You prefer the words and arrangements of words you use because it helps your case, but it obfuscates the inescapable role of preference in all free will choices. It all boils down to preference, one way or another, That is another inescapable fact of the nature of all sentient creatures in any universe capable of choosing between options.William J Murray
March 20, 2021
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With the straightforward meaning of words, intelligent design is a subset of creationism. Choice is the mechanism of creation, it is how a creation originates. Intelligent design is a special kind of decisionmaking process. When there are many independent decisions producing a result, then the result is a creation from those decisions. When a result is produced by a centralized. planned way of decisionmaking (although the definition of intelligently designing is not set in stone yet), then the result is a creation, and it is intelligently designed. But ofcourse, intelligent design theorists haven't even accepted that choice is the central mechanism of intelligent design. Probably because they cannot get a consensus on what it means to make a choice. Probably they are plagued by free will problems, as is common in philosophy. But clearly the power of choice is why intelligent design is such an attractive theory. With choice, you can in principle have a zillion possible configurations of DNA directly at your disposal. All these possibilities being in the future in respect to a decision on them. That is not the complete answer on how intelligent design would function, but it certainly is part of the answer. It is much more efficient than natural selection sorting out 1 configuration of DNA at a time, over the reproductive cycle of the individual.mohammadnursyamsu
March 20, 2021
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Me “ The big tend ID concept is that many of the things we observe, including life, is best explained by the actions of an intelligent agent. “ Kairosfocus “ SA2, maybe you should stop taking your understanding of what ID is at core as a scientific project from dishonest and/or incompetent detractors such as those who hang around at Wikipedia. The central issue of relevance is whether observable entities manifest reliable signs that warrant an inference to design as best explanation through abductive form inductive reasoning. Other than a couple big words, how is this different than what I said? In every scientific endeavour there are disagreements as to the details and the value of the investigative tools. But everyone studying that field are still included within the same big tent. For example, those studying evolution may have significant disagreements as to the importance of various aspects of the subject such as neutral theory, epigenetics, junk DNA, etc but they all live within the same big tent. They all believe that differential reproduction acting on variable and heritable characteristics is the best explanation of the variation of life forms we observe. The same applies to ID. ID is the all-encompassing subject where certain observations are best explained by the actions of an intelligent agent. Within this big tent there are disagreements on the value of some of the tools used (eg, explanatory filter, IC, etc), or exactly when and where the actions of an intelligent agent was necessary. But anyone who believes that an intelligent agent was necessary must, by definition, live in the ID tent, whether they admit it or not. I don’t understand your hostility towards this idea.Steve Alten2
March 20, 2021
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SA2, maybe you should stop taking your understanding of what ID is at core as a scientific project from dishonest and/or incompetent detractors such as those who hang around at Wikipedia. The central issue of relevance is whether observable entities manifest reliable signs that warrant an inference to design as best explanation through abductive form inductive reasoning. That is what distinguishes those willing to study the scientific issue on its merits (agreement or disagreement as to whether there are such identified signs comes later, out of actually doing the study . . . ) from those who impose a priori evolutionary materialism or who reject the possibility of reliable empirical detection of design. As it is, there is a family of such signs that can be summarised as functionally specific complex organisation and/or associated information, FSCO/I. KF PS: By sharp contrast with the willful agit prop at Wikipedia, note: https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Intelligent_design >>Intelligent design (ID) is the view that it is possible to infer from empirical evidence that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection" [1] Intelligent design cannot be inferred from complexity alone, since complex patterns often happen by chance. ID focuses on just those sorts of complex patterns that in human experience are produced by a mind that conceives and executes a plan. According to adherents, intelligent design can be detected in the natural laws and structure of the cosmos; it also can be detected in at least some features of living things. Greater clarity on the topic may be gained from a discussion of what ID is not considered to be by its leading theorists. Intelligent design generally is not defined the same as creationism, with proponents maintaining that ID relies on scientific evidence rather than on Scripture or religious doctrines. ID makes no claims about biblical chronology, and technically a person does not have to believe in God to infer intelligent design in nature. As a theory, ID also does not specify the identity or nature of the designer, so it is not the same as natural theology, which reasons from nature to the existence and attributes of God. ID does not claim that all species of living things were created in their present forms, and it does not claim to provide a complete account of the history of the universe or of living things. ID also is not considered by its theorists to be an "argument from ignorance"; that is, intelligent design is not to be inferred simply on the basis that the cause of something is unknown (any more than a person accused of willful intent can be convicted without evidence). According to various adherents, ID does not claim that design must be optimal; something may be intelligently designed even if it is flawed (as are many objects made by humans). ID may be considered to consist only of the minimal assertion that it is possible to infer from empirical evidence that some features of the natural world are best explained by an intelligent agent. It conflicts with views claiming that there is no real design in the cosmos (e.g., materialistic philosophy) or in living things (e.g., Darwinian evolution) or that design, though real, is undetectable (e.g., some forms of theistic evolution). Because of such conflicts, ID has generated considerable controversy. >>kairosfocus
March 20, 2021
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