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Dr Thomas Frieden, formerly Director of the US CDC, 2017 in NEJM, on the need to go beyond placebo-controlled studies as “gold standard”

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One of the key steps in dismissing evidence of efficacy of hydroxychloroquine-based cocktails in treating early stageCovid-19 for patients in vulnerable groups on an outpatient basis is the use of the premise that such evidence is of low quality as it does not match the “gold standard” of placebo-controlled, randomised tests (often. RCT’s). However, observations are observations, natural regularities are often observable from the first few trials, evidence is evidence, ethical and practical considerations are real, and valid scientific methods do not reduce to applied statistics.

It is in that context that we should attend carefully to remarks by Dr Thomas Frieden, writing in NEJM 3 1/2 years ago, in terms that uncannily anticipate our current woes:

Despite their strengths, RCTs have substantial limitations. Although they can have strong internal validity, RCTs sometimes lack external validity; generalizations of findings outside the study population may be invalid.2,4,6 RCTs usually do not have sufficient study periods or population sizes to assess duration of treatment effect (e.g., waning immunity of vaccines) or to identify rare but serious adverse effects of treatment, which often become evident during postmarketing surveillance and long-term follow-up but could not be practically assessed in an RCT. The increasingly high costs and time constraints of RCTs can also lead to reliance on surrogate markers that may not correlate well with the outcome of interest. Selection of high-risk groups increases the likelihood of having adequate numbers of end points, but these groups may not be relevant to the broader target populations. These limitations and the fact that RCTs often take years to plan, implement, and analyze reduce the ability of RCTs to keep pace with clinical innovations; new products and standards of care are often developed before earlier models complete evaluation. These limitations also affect the use of RCTs for urgent health issues, such as infectious disease outbreaks, for which public health decisions must be made quickly on the basis of limited and often imperfect available data. RCTs are also limited in their ability to assess the individualized effect of treatment, as can result from differences in surgical techniques, and are generally impractical for rare diseases.

Many other data sources can provide valid evidence for clinical and public health action. Observational studies, including assessments of results from the implementation of new programs and policies, remain the foremost source, but other examples include analysis of aggregate clinical or epidemiologic data . . .

He also presents a table of options with strengths and weaknesses, which we now sample:

Dr Thomas Friedman on strengths and limitations of Placebo controlled testing

Later in the same article, as he concludes, he also notes:

There is no single, best approach to the study of health interventions; clinical and public health decisions are almost always made with imperfect data (Table 1). Promoting transparency in study methods, ensuring standardized data collection for key outcomes, and using new approaches to improve data synthesis are critical steps in the interpretation of findings and in the identification of data for action, and it must be recognized that conclusions may change over time. There will always be an argument for more research and for better data, but waiting for more data is often an implicit decision not to act or to act on the basis of past practice rather than best available evidence. The goal must be actionable data — data that are sufficient for clinical and public health action that have been derived openly and objectively and that enable us to say, “Here’s what we recommend and why.”

In that context, it is appropriate for me to again highlight a diagram on sustainability oriented decision making, adapted from the Bariloche Foundation of Argentina:

Where, BAU is in fact a natural baseline of reference. We seek a more satisfactory alternative, ALT. It must be credible enough incrementally to justify onward exploration and that first requires becoming a candidate for more costly investigation that shifts epistemic probabilities. Where, of arguments by/among clever people there is no end, so empirical demonstration at various levels is pivotal.

Here, epistemology of empirically based knowledge does not allow for gold standards that impose selective hyperskepticism against otherwise reasonable evidence. Evidence is evidence (and various uncertainties, risks and potential for errors cannot be wholly eliminated). So, we must recognise that BAU is a baseline/ benchmark/ control, and there is no strict necessity to construct an artificial, no effective treatment baseline; call it 0TB.

After all, the point is really to improve outcomes from BAU, and gap analysis ALT vs BAU has no inherent reference to 0TB. Algebraically, on credible or observed outcomes, we see this from

(ALT – 0TB) – (BAU – 0TB) = ALT – BAU

Where, with people as test subjects, if 0TB is based on deception — e.g. sugar pills deliberately mislabelled and presented under false colours and ceremonies of medicine and research in the face of significant risk of harm to vulnerable patients — and has potential for significant harm, it becomes ethically questionable. We know of extreme cases of concentration camp experimentation, the Tuskegee syphilis atrocity and more. However in more recent times, people have been subjected to fake surgeries under general anesthesia etc. The placebo effect has covered a multitude of sins.

In the face of pandemic, urgency is another issue. What yields results in a timeframe relevant to taming the surge of cases becomes a highly relevant criterion. As does the tradeoff of lives lost under various treatment, public health [e.g. quarantines vs general lockdown] and policy options. Where, relevantly, economic dislocation carries a toll in health and lives too. (It is suggested by some that deaths of despair and from postponed medical procedures may/do exceed those attributed to the epidemic.) This means BTW that the dismal science, Economics, has a seat at the decision makers’ table as of right.

It is time for mindset change. END

PS/UD Aug 15: I have found at Bit Chute, a July 28 Frontline Doctors seminar which describes several mechanisms of action. Accordingly, I take liberty to annotate a screenshot, summarising several mechanisms of action described by these Doctors [cf. here for their references], but which are hard to find because of now almost pervasive censorship:

I note, this first answers a puzzle on the mode of action, shape-shift of ACE2: the shift is INTERNAL to the cell by hindering “glycation” of the final AA (thus prior to exposure to buffering of blood etc), altering the shape enough to hamper S-protein reception. This reduces fusion with bilipid layer and RNA injection.

Other direct mechanisms as noted, reduce intracellular acidity thus action of organelles. They highlight stalling of assembly of new viri in the Golgi bodies, with implication of blocking export of fresh viri, thus hampering the multiplication chain. The by now well known indirect activity is that as a lipophilic molecule, HCQ enters the cell bilipid layer membrane, acting as a Zn ionophore, i.e. it “shoots” Zn into the cell. Zn in turn hinders a key viral enzyme, RdRP.

Thus, we see a plausible picture of causal action, involving multiple, synergistic effects. This lends credibility to the use of HCQ-based cosctails in treating the early viral phases of CV19.

PPS: Given tendencies to be dismissive, I here reproduce two key illustrations/charts from Dr Raoult’s work on now over 3,000 patients at IHU in Marseilles France.

First, his statistical summary on difference made with vulnerable groups through HCQ-Azithromycin treatment, by May:

We note that expected death rates for vulnerable groups are as high as 15%.

Next, here is a chart from his early, about 80 patient stage, illustrating rapid reduction of viral load . . . for which we now have specific, scientifically plausible causal mechanisms on the table:

I add, just for stirring the pot, a Frontline Doctors chart on CV19 case fatality rates vs accessibility of HCQ:

Thus, we see good reason to accept that HCQ-based cocktails (which were available from the outset of the pandemic) are credibly effective and should not have been treated with the extreme skepticism, hostility and suppression we have instead seen. Note, the leader of the Frontline Doctors, Dr Simone Gold, was fired immediately on leading a public protest. Frankly, that smacks of whistleblower retaliation.

It is appropriate to raise pointed questions, through the voice of the doctors writing an open letter to Dr Fauci:

>>There is currently no recommended pharmacologic early outpatient treatment for individuals in the flu stage of the illness, correct?
It is true that COVID-19 is much more lethal than the flu for high-risk individuals such as older patients and those with significant comorbidities, correct?
Individuals with signs of early COVID-19 infection typically have a runny nose, fever, cough, shortness of breath, loss of smell, etc., and physicians send them home to rest, eat chicken soup etc., but offer no specific, targeted medications, correct?
These high-risk individuals are at high risk of death, on the order of 15% or higher, correct?
So just so we are clear—the current standard of care now is to send clinically stable symptomatic patients home, “with a wait and see” approach?
Are you aware that physicians are successfully using Hydroxychloroquine combined with Zinc and Azithromycin as a “cocktail” for early outpatient treatment of symptomatic, high-risk, individuals?
Have you heard of the “Zelenko Protocol,” for treating high-risk patients with COVID 19 as an outpatient?
Have you read Dr. Risch’s article in the American Journal of Epidemiology of the early outpatient treatment of COVID-19?
Are you aware that physicians using the medication combination or “cocktail” recommend use within the first 5 to 7 days of the onset of symptoms, before the illness impacts the lungs, or cytokine storm evolves?
Again, to be clear, your recommendation is no pharmacologic treatment as an outpatient for the flu—like symptoms in patients that are stable, regardless of their risk factors, correct?
Would you advocate for early pharmacologic outpatient treatment of symptomatic COVID-19 patients if you were confident that it was beneficial?
Are you aware that there are hundreds of physicians in the United States and thousands across the globe who have had dramatic success treating high-risk individuals as outpatients with this “cocktail?”
Are you aware that there are at least 10 studies demonstrating the efficacy of early outpatient treatment with the Hydroxychloroquine cocktail for high-risk patients — so this is beyond anecdotal, correct?
If one of your loved ones had diabetes or asthma, or any potentially complicating comorbidity, and tested positive for COVID-19, would you recommend “wait and see how they do” and go to the hospital if symptoms progress?
Even with multiple studies documenting remarkable outpatient efficacy and safety of the Hydroxychloroquine “cocktail,” you believe the risks of the medication combination outweigh the benefits?
Is it true that with regard to Hydroxychloroquine and treatment of COVID-19 infection, you have said repeatedly that “The Overwhelming Evidence of Properly Conducted Randomized Clinical Trials Indicate No Therapeutic Efficacy of Hydroxychloroquine (HCQ)?”
But NONE of the randomized controlled trials to which you refer were done in the first 5 to 7 days after the onset of symptoms- correct?
All of the randomized controlled trials to which you refer were done on hospitalized patients, correct?
Hospitalized patients are typically sicker that outpatients, correct?
None of the randomized controlled trials to which you refer used the full cocktail consisting of Hydroxychloroquine, Zinc, and Azithromycin, correct?

While the University of Minnesota study is referred to as disproving the cocktail, the meds were not given within the first 5 to 7 days of illness, the test group was not high risk (death rates were 3%), and no zinc was given, correct?
Again, for clarity, the trials upon which you base your opinion regarding the efficacy of Hydroxychloroquine, assessed neither the full cocktail (to include Zinc + Azithromycin or doxycycline) nor administered treatment within the first 5 to 7 days of symptoms, nor focused on the high-risk group, correct?
Therefore, you have no basis to conclude that the Hydroxychloroquine cocktail when used early in the outpatient setting, within the first 5 to 7 days of symptoms, in high risk patients, is not effective, correct?
It is thus false and misleading to say that the effective and safe use of Hydroxychloroquine, Zinc, and Azithromycin has been “debunked,” correct? How could it be “debunked” if there is not a single study that contradicts its use?

Should it not be an absolute priority for the NIH and CDC to look at ways to treat Americans with symptomatic COVID-19 infections early to prevent disease progression?
The SARS-CoV-2/COVID-19 virus is an RNA virus. It is well-established that Zinc interferes with RNA viral replication, correct?
Moreover, is it not true that hydroxychloroquine facilitates the entry of zinc into the cell, is a “ionophore,” correct?
Isn’t also it true that Azithromycin has established anti-viral properties?
Are you aware of the paper from Baylor by Dr. McCullough et. al. describing established mechanisms by which the components of the “HCQ cocktail” exert anti-viral effects?

So- the use of hydroxychloroquine, azithromycin (or doxycycline) and zinc, the “HCQ cocktail,” is based on science, correct?>>

Comments
Executive Director of the National COVID-19 Clinical Evidence Taskforce [Austrakia], said the evidence indicates hydroxychloroquine is potentially harmful and no more effective than standard care in treating patients with COVID-19. ‘We have reviewed all the scientific data around hydroxychloroquine and we can now say, definitively, that hydroxychloroquine should not be used as a treatment for anyone with COVID-19,’ ‘There is now sufficient data for us to make a very clear and strong recommendation. In this instance, that is based on data from randomised controlled trials that enrolled nearly 6000 patients. ‘This is a substantial amount of very high-quality scientific data upon which we’ve based the recommendation. ‘The pooled results show the drug does not reduce mortality, or shorten the amount of time a sick person spends in hospital. It also exposes them to side effects including cardiac toxicity.’
Of note is the fact that they have seen a ten-fold reduction in influenza deaths during the current flu season. If the lockdown/distancing/mask measures being taken To combat COVID-19 are having this impact on flu deaths, is it not reasonable to assume that they are having a similar impact on COVID deaths?Mac McTavish
August 16, 2020
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More on Africa: Africa CDC director John Nkengasong said estimating the true number of cases on the continent is “very tricky.” Some 70% of infections are asymptomatic, he has said. Africa’s young population also might be a factor. Without a dramatic increase in testing, “there’s much we don’t know.” Reflecting the pandemic’s diverse nature across Africa, just five countries account for 75% of confirmed cases: South Africa, Egypt, Nigeria, Ghana and Algeria. Nigeria alone could have had close to 1 million cases by now if Africa’s most populous country hadn’t acted quickly, the Africa CDC’s Nkengasong said. Africa’s most developed country, South Africa, has strained to cope as hospital beds fill up and confirmed cases are over a half-million, ranking fifth in the world. The country has Africa’s most extensive testing and data collection, and yet a South African Medical Research Council report last week showed many COVID-19 deaths were going uncounted. Other deaths were attributed to other diseases as people avoid health centers and resources are diverted to the pandemic. https://www.khon2.com/international/africa-passes-1m-confirmed-virus-cases-true-number-far-more/rhampton7
August 16, 2020
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Presumed attack modes does not necessarily mean actual attack modes. Again, that’s why you do RCTs. This is a novel virus, after all.rhampton7
August 16, 2020
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GCS, several large African countries have stopped using HCQ (South Africa, Kenya, Nigeria) after determining it wasn’t effective or have never approved it outside of clinical trials. I posted those reports in the previous thread. Also, Brazil is this worst hit nation despite using HCQ. In fact, a recent RCT was a trial in Brazil that “ found that hydroxychloroquine -- given either alone or in combination with the antibiotic azithromycin -- did not improve the conditions of hospitalized patients with mild-to-moderate Covid-19.”rhampton7
August 16, 2020
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Article in my local newspaper (remember that - ink and newsprint!) concerning questions about why so few deaths from Covid in Africa. The usual speculations - not one word that they may be a malaria area that uses HCQ. The refusal to treat immediately when any risk factor is present is no longer just a poor decision - it is criminal. No other disease is not treated as early as possible.GCS
August 16, 2020
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MMT, we have mechanisms, we have thousands of cases once we avoid biased to fail errors, we have the independent cross-check of working as a fish tank cleaner so fish thrive but crud across kingdoms dies; it must have attack modes that affect core, cross kingdom cell functions . . . and that is what is plausibly on the table, cf OP as augmented. There is good reason to accept HCQ based cocktails as credible. At this point, it is very hard to overturn the questions put on the table in the open letter to Dr Fauci. KFkairosfocus
August 16, 2020
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RH7, BTW, the mechanisms would fit in well with how HCQ and/or CQ have worked as fish tank cleaner for some 40 years. Fish, as complex organisms, live but the crud across kingdoms of life, dies. The effects given boil down to systematic but obviously manageable toxicity that attacks the various functions in the cell. Multicellular complex animals will have more "give" but for unicellular organisms or viruses as cell hijackers, it all depends on one cell. In short, we have convergent evidence and mutual reinforcement. KFkairosfocus
August 16, 2020
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Killer quote 2 Thomas Frieden March 27: There are close to 70 different medicines that are being studied. The first really rigorous study was of two of the most promising drugs that together kill viruses. And it didn’t work. So it’s one thing to have a promising substance or anecdotal evidence, and it’s quite another to show that it works. We all hope there’ll be effective treatment. http://www.pbs.org/wnet/firing-line/video/tom-frieden-vwz2xa/rhampton7
August 16, 2020
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Good reasons in a Petri dish do not necessarily mean it will work in reality. That’s why you do RCTs. You know this.rhampton7
August 16, 2020
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And here is the killer quote March 20: Former CDC director Dr. Tom Frieden said chloroquine “urgently needs to be further tested in more patients in a randomized fashion so we can know if these and other medications are helpful to people with COVID-19.” https://www.bostonherald.com/2020/03/19/fda-fast-tracks-2-coronavirus-treatments-boston-hospital-already-using-malaria-drug-on-patients/rhampton7
August 16, 2020
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Thomas Frieden August 8: “Right now, we’re flying blind,” said Thomas Frieden, a former director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. “Public health is not getting in the way of economic recovery and schools reopening. Public health is the means to economic recovery and schools reopening. You don’t have to believe me. Look all over the world. The U.S. is a laggard.” https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-struggled-summer-coronavirus/2020/08/08/e12ceace-d80a-11ea-aff6-220dd3a14741_story.htmlrhampton7
August 16, 2020
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Thomas Frieden July 21: “We have a real vacuum of leadership at the national level,” said Dr. Thomas R. Frieden, the former C.D.C. director, who now runs Resolve to Save Lives, a nonprofit health advocacy initiative. “Absent a national strategy, our best hope is to get all 50 states on the same page, so we know where we are,” he said. Dr. Frieden’s organization concluded that states are reporting only 40 percent of the data needed to fight the pandemic. Some states disclose less useful information than the government of Uganda, which Resolve to Save Lives also advises on its coronavirus response, he said. The report laid out 15 indicators that every state should report daily on a public “dashboard” that anyone can view. They included not just basic elements like cases, hospitalizations and deaths, but sophisticated metrics such as what percentage of infections came from clusters of people who know one another, how many health care workers get infected on the job, how long it takes to get a diagnostic test result, and what percentage of any city’s or county’s residents are wearing masks. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/21/health/coronavirus-data-states-cdc.htmlrhampton7
August 16, 2020
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Jerry
Yes, it’s possible to disagree on the amount of efficacy but not on any efficacy at all.
There are hundreds, if not thousands, of medical professionals and epidemiologists who would disagree with you. Every drug has some risk associated with it, and HCQ is no different. The benefits must significantly outweigh the risks before it should be recommended, especially on an outpatient basis. Based on current knowledge, that simply hasn’t been demonstrated to be the case for HCQ.
It’s not possible for those who do not recommend it at all to come down on wanting to save lives.
That is simply not true. Based on what I have read so far about HCQ, I would not recommend it unless it was under a hospital setting, or if a full medical work up has been performed, including a medical and family history. I say this with the caveat that I am not a medical professional, and I do not even play one on TV. As such, I will rely on the consensus of the medical profession.Mac McTavish
August 16, 2020
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RH7, Really. I cited Dr Thomas Frieden as an example of someone of indubitably world class standard -- former head of the US CDC -- who is also acknowledging the force of relevant decision theory points I have made since March, precisely because I am familiar with it and its power. At no point have I suggested the fallacy of blind acquiescence in the face of authority. Obviously, that is not inclining you to attend to that force of fact and logic. And if you mean to dismiss the Frontline Doctors, simply provide good reason to dismiss the cluster of identified plausible attack modes. For example, is it false that HCQ is a weak base? [Not likely!] Or, that it is able to access cells and would shift internal pH? Would that not hinder organelles? Especially, Golgi? Likewise, would it not serve as ionophore and would Zn not hinder viral replication? I think we can take it instead that plausible mechanisms provide cumulative support to the reported success, where it is obvious that viral replication dominant phases are different from onward infections and cytokine storms. In short, there are good reasons to have some confidence that HCQ based cocktails will work as suggested. KFkairosfocus
August 16, 2020
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Thomas Frieden August 7: Dr. Thomas Frieden said that the CDC had been sidelined early on in the pandemic and described Trump’s contradictory messages as “chaotic leadership,” which has led to partisanship, confusion and increased spread of the virus. “It's unbelievable that six months into the pandemic, it's not clear who's in charge, federally,” Frieden said during a roundtable hosted by ABC News Live. “There's no plan. There's no common data that we're looking at to see what's happening with the virus and what's happening with our response.” Dr. Jeffrey Koplan said that "every one of those falsehoods" damages the nation's mitigation efforts against the virus. Frieden added that Americans want information from the CDC. “Americans are voting with their clicks. There have been 1.6 billion clicks on the CDC website,” said Frieden. “The more we learn, the more we know, the better we can control it.” https://www.cnn.com/world/live-news/coronavirus-pandemic-08-07-20-intl/index.htmlrhampton7
August 16, 2020
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Thomas Frieden, March 22: Roberts also asked Frieden for his thoughts on President Trump's frequent touting of anti-malarial drug hydroxychloroquine as a potential treatment for the virus, despite lack of FDA approval for that use. "We all hope there'll be good treatment for people with severe infection for this virus because that would make a big difference," Frieden said, adding "things seem promising but until you really study them, until you really figure out does it work, we don't know." https://thehill.com/homenews/sunday-talk-shows/488859-former-cdc-head-i-would-feel-a-lot-safer-if-it-were-clear-that-the Thomas Frieden May 24: ‘Very unlikely’ hydroxychloroquine will be dramatically effective against COVID-19 https://www.fullcourtgreta.com/video/2020/05/24/dr-frieden-very-unlikely-hydroxychloroquine-will-be-dramatically-effective-against-covid-/rhampton7
August 16, 2020
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The first study on the possible effectiveness of HCQ on Covid-19 was done by a group of French doctors who used HCQ plus an antibiotic Azithromycin to treat patients and reported that the patients had a very low mortality rate. The problem is that this study only observed 80 patients, and there was no comparison group. We don't know what the mortality rate of patients would be if HCQ was not used. This group of French doctors published a report on 1061 patients in May and continued to claim that the patients had a very low mortality rate, but there was still no comparison group. In July, another report of observation of more than 3,000 patients was published . This time there are groups, but not RCTs. Their study design and conclusions are very strange, saying that HCQ plus antibiotic Azithromycin is helpful for patients, but the number of groups is very uneven. 3119 patients received treatment, only 162 patients did not receive HCQ or Azithromycin, and the others received different courses of treatment. Comparing the group with no treatment at all and the group with HCQ plus antibiotic Azithromycin, "Poor Clinical Outcome" (death or requiring intensive treatment) was 6.2% and 4.9%, respectively. It is statistically significant (p=0.02). But the difference between the two groups is too big. Only 5.9% of the treatment group had heart disease; 15% of the treatment group had heart disease, 11.1% of the untreated group had heart disease, and 19.1% had high blood pressure. Therefore, it is normal to have higher malignant clinical results, and it is difficult to get treatment Valid conclusion. https://www.thestandnews.com/society/%E7%BE%A5%E6%B0%AF%E5%96%B9-hydroxychloroquine-hcq-%E7%9A%84%E9%99%B0%E8%AC%80%E8%AB%96/rhampton7
August 16, 2020
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KF, I don’t understand your appeals to authority when it’s obviously of no concern to you when it works against your argument. Entire nations, like Israel, have consulted with their medical experts and concluded otherwise. You do know how many Nobel Prize winning scientists and docrors come from Israel, yes? And that’s but one glaringly obvious example. Yet for you, it is inconsequential.rhampton7
August 16, 2020
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at last I see a somewhat sympathetic portrayal of one of our mavericks, Dr Raoult
Yes, interesting facts about Raoult and his studies. Halfway through. Very long. No mention of Zelenko or zinc. Will read rest later. Have to go out.jerry
August 16, 2020
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Do you seriously think that the people here who disagree with you and KF with respect to the efficacy of HCQ,
Yes, it’s possible to disagree on the amount of efficacy but not on any efficacy at all. It’s not possible for those who do not recommend it at all to come down on wanting to save lives. They are allowing people to die for no valid reason. The drug is safe, inexpensive and there are thousands of reasons to believe it has some positive effect, probably significant positive effect. To block it is immoral.jerry
August 16, 2020
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Jerry
The world plays out in miniature on UD. Even people dying makes no difference to them. Winning a political battle or just a rhetorical battle trumps human lives.
Do you seriously think that the people here who disagree with you and KF with respect to the efficacy of HCQ, or the vast majority in the medical field who have examined the evidence and don’t see efficacy, were not hoping that HCQ would be the miracle that some are touting it to be? I suspect that most who have serious doubts about its efficacy are either in a high risk category, or have loved ones who are in a high risk category.Mac McTavish
August 16, 2020
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Jerry, at last I see a somewhat sympathetic portrayal of one of our mavericks, Dr Raoult. KFkairosfocus
August 16, 2020
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Jerry, Further down:
in the midst of a pandemic, thousands started earnestly hoping—before the science was really in—that a drug, one that might save lives at a comparatively low cost, would not actually do so. Reasonably good studies were depicted as sloppy work, fatally flawed. Many have excelled in making counterfeit bills that look real, but few have excelled at making real bills look counterfeit. As such, as we sort this out, we shall observe not only some “tricks” about how to make bad studies look like good ones, but also how to make good studies look like bad ones. And why should anyone facing a pandemic wish to discredit potentially lifesaving medications? Well, in fact, this ability can come in very handy in this midst of a plague, when many medications and vaccines are competing to Save the World—and for the billions of dollars that will go along with that. So this story is twofold. It’s about the discussion that unfolded (and is still unfolding) around hydroxychloroquine, but if you’re here for a definitive answer to a narrow question about one specific drug (“does hydroxychloroquine work?”), you will be disappointed. Because what our tale is really concerned with is the perilous state of vulnerability of our scientific discourse, models, and institutions—which is arguably a much bigger, and more urgent problem, since there are other drugs that must be tested for safety and effectiveness (most complex illnesses like COVID-19 often require a group of medications) as well as vaccines, which would be slated to be given to billions of people. “This misbegotten episode regarding hydroxychloroquine will be studied by sociologists of medicine as a classic example of how extra-scientific factors overrode clear-cut medical evidence,” Yale professor of epidemiology Harvey A. Risch recently argued . . .
To us design inference advocates (not to mention those with questions on some of the claims in the dominant climate trends narrative), that's an old story. It seems the bad habits are metastising. It looks like things will have to crash hard enough and burn enough for there to be serious rethinking. KFkairosfocus
August 16, 2020
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BO'H: the mere abstract possibility does not overturn a strong pattern. So strong, that PaV is highlighting the enthusiasm gap on actual practitioners. Above, we can see an interesting correlation between death rate and attitude to HCQ+. You are also implying that a leading, world class researcher responsible for the results now again shown above is grossly incompetent without good specific reason apart from things that pivot on appeals to gold standard fallacies. If there is a credible candidate "confounding" agent, what is it, do, let us know. That might be a pretty strong candidate treatment. An agent in use all around the world where HCQ cocktails are in use. Or is it that the confounding agent suspect is the obvious: the cocktail itself? KFkairosfocus
August 16, 2020
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kf @ 65 - you can wave your (metaphorical. Or perhaps literal - I don't know how you type) arms as much as you want, but you really need to be able to address the issue of confounders in these observational studies. If you can't do that (and it might be possible with some of them - I wouldn't expect to see perfection), you're pretty much admitting that the results are worthless.Bob O'H
August 16, 2020
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The politicization of HCQ https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/science/articles/hydroxychloroquine-morality-tale
Hydroxychloroquine: A Morality Tale We live in a culture that has uncritically accepted that every domain of life is political, and that even things we think are not political are so, that all human enterprises are merely power struggles, that even the idea of “truth” is a fantasy, and really a matter of imposing one’s view on others. For a while, some held out hope that science remained an exception to this. That scientists would not bring their personal political biases into their science, and they would not be mobbed if what they said was unwelcome to one faction or another. But the sordid 2020 drama of hydroxychloroquine—which saw scientists routinely attacked for critically evaluating evidence and coming to politically inconvenient conclusions—has, for many, killed those hopes.
The world plays out in miniature on UD. Even people dying makes no difference to them. Winning a political battle or just a rhetorical battle trumps human lives.jerry
August 16, 2020
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On the bright side, it looks like the actions being taken to prevent the spread and deaths by COVID might have a significant impact on the spread and deaths caused by the flu.
influenza and influenza-like illness (ILI) activity are lower than average across all systems for this time of year.” Australia had just 36 laboratory-confirmed flu deaths from January to July 26, 2020, the report said. Over the same period a year earlier, there were 383 confirmed deaths. https://www1.health.gov.au/internet/main/publishing.nsf/Content/cda-surveil-ozflu-flucurr.htm/$File/flu-09-2020.pdf
Mac McTavish
August 16, 2020
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KF
put up to duly note
Sure it is prudent to have all the info on the table which is why I mentioned it in previous posts. The important thing is to put such information into the perspective of phsyiological feasibility and what can be accomplished from an acute intervention. For example cell culture research has demonstrated that ACE2 receptors can be 'stripped' from the cell surface within 4 hrs by flooding the culture with angiotensin. Might work effectively to prevent COVID infection of the cell albeit with dire consequences for a living organism so while it is a quasi-feasable mechanism it is physiologically not a viable treatment given the obvious consequences of ACE2 elimination from the cell surface.RHolt
August 16, 2020
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BO'H, you full well know that proof is not in the gift of inductive logic. Warrant per best explanation is. Here, we have a cluster of plausible mechanisms that lead to highly significant differences in outcomes, including a key case of squeezing through cracks in the biased to fail methods. In that context we can safely set aside a quasi-infinite multiverse with no causal connexions. We can accept cause and filter on means. In that context, best explanation across thousands of cases is that the mechanisms are working as advertised. Your good reason to reject that are? ______ And why should we take such seriously? ____ KFkairosfocus
August 16, 2020
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RHolt, put up to duly note. KFkairosfocus
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