Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Is nature really a struggle in which natural selection is the key factor?

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British physicist David Tyler comments:

In a perceptive essay, Daniel Todes focuses attention on the reactions of Russian biologists to Darwin’s writings. Many of these naturalists “were evolutionists before 1859”, so they did not dissent from common ancestry. However, their experiences of the living world were quite different from Darwin and Wallace, who drew their inspiration from densely populated tropical forests and related habitats. They witnessed a struggle for existence that matched the description Thomas Malthus had given of human communities. Using the same logic, Darwin and Wallace were stimulated to think about winners and losers in populations of animals and plants. The Russian scientists lived in a different world.

[They] “investigated a vast under-populated continental plain. For them, nature was not an “entangled bank” – the image Darwin took from the Brazilian jungle. It was a largely empty Siberian expanse in which overpopulation was rare and only the struggle of organisms against a harsh environment was dramatic.”

The Russian response to living in a harsh environment was to develop “the language of communalism – stressing not individual initiative and struggle, but the importance of cooperation within social groups and the virtues of social harmony.” The analysis of Malthus did not match the biological communities in their part of the world, so Darwin’s metaphor of the “struggle for existence” was not, in their view, well grounded.

That’s always what bothered me. I see competition in nature, to be sure, but also lots of cooperation. Otherwise, life could not survive against non-life. There is much more non-life than life. That much should be obvious. For more, go here.

Tyler also points out that the modern synthesis that is supposed to save Darwinism is gone.

Earlier this year, Eugene Koonin published a masterly analysis of the impact of genomics on evolutionary thinking. This proved to be too meaty a study for a concise blog, and my initial draft was abandoned. Happily, a shorter overview has now been published, and this abstracts salient points from the research paper. Koonin notes that the 1959 Origin centennial was “marked by the consolidation of the modern synthesis” but subsequent years have witnessed great changes which have undermined its credibility. “The edifice of the modern synthesis has crumbled, apparently, beyond repair.”

Koonin uses the metaphor of “the landscape of evolutionary biology”. There are three distinct revolutions have occurred over the past half-century: the molecular, the microbiological and the genomic revolutions.

“[T]his year is the perfect time to ask some crucial questions: how has evolutionary biology changed in the 50 years since the hardening of the modern synthesis? Is it still a viable conceptual framework for evolutionary thinking and research?”

The molecular revolution culminated, says Koonin, in the neutral theory, which means that purifying selection is more common than positive selection. The microbiological revolution brought the world of prokaryotes into the domain of evolutionary biology, but it then became apparent that the concepts of Darwinism and the modern synthesis “applied only to multicellular organisms”. The genomic revolution revealed that the living world was “a far cry from the orderly, rather simple picture envisioned by Darwin and the creators of the modern synthesis”. In particular, it is now interpreted as an “extremely dynamic world where horizontal gene transfer (HGT) is not a rarity but the regular way of existence, and mobile genetic elements that are vehicles of HGT are ubiquitous”. “The discovery of pervasive HGT and the overall dynamics of the genetic universe destroys not only the tree of life as we knew it but also another central tenet of the modern synthesis inherited from Darwin, namely gradualism. In a world dominated by HGT, gene duplication, gene loss and such momentous events as endosymbiosis, the idea of evolution being driven primarily by infinitesimal heritable changes in the Darwinian tradition has become untenable.”

Koonin is serious in saying that all the concepts of the modern synthesis are in need of a fundamental overhaul. “Moreover, with pan-adaptationism gone forever, so is the notion of evolutionary progress that is undoubtedly central to traditional evolutionary thinking, even if this is not always made explicit. The summary of the state of affairs on the 150th anniversary of the Origin is somewhat shocking. In the postgenomic era, all major tenets of the modern synthesis have been, if not outright overturned, replaced by a new and incomparably more complex vision of the key aspects of evolution. So, not to mince words, the modern synthesis is gone.”

Koonin tentatively identifies two candidates to fill the vacuum left by the discarded modern synthesis. The first of these appears to emphasis the role of chance; the second appears to emphasise law. “The first is the population-genetic theory of the evolution of genomic architecture, according to which evolving complexity is a side product of non-adaptive evolutionary processes occurring in small populations where the constraints of purifying selection are weak. The second area with a potential for major unification could be the study of universal patterns of evolution such as the distribution of evolutionary rates of orthologous genes, which is nearly the same in organisms from bacteria to mammals or the equally universal anticorrelation between the rate of evolution and the expression level of a gene. The existence of these universals suggests that simple theory of the kind used in statistical physics might explain some crucial aspects of evolution.”

It is not difficult to predict that Koonin’s analysis will not be received quietly by the very vocal leaders of evolutionary biology. They are still entrenched in neoDarwinism and show no signs of conceding any ground to anyone.

Go here for more.

Actually, Koonin is just as likely to be ignored as not quietly received. The fantasy creation story of fashionable atheism is in many places, government policy. Its proponents often have tenure and get their pay every month. The only solution is eventual retirement parties, followed by a big revaluation – = what do we really know? How much is mere propaganda?

Comments
In comment #37 Mung asked:
"Where is the evidence for this “chaos and disintegration” which Allen asserts is so prevalent in biology?"
In the genome; have you read Dr. Koonin's abstract (or, even better, his review paper)? It's all there.Allen_MacNeill
November 21, 2009
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Interesting: in comment #24, Clive Hayden wrote:
"...ID in biology deals with abiogenesis, which has nothing to do with adaptation, cellular machinery, motor neurons etc...."
while in comment #37 Mung wrote:
"...the cell exhibits “exquisite” and “ingenious” design."
Hmm, looks like somebody didn't get the memo. Which is it: • ID is not about the "exquisite and ingenious design of the cell" or • ID is about the "exquisite and ingenious design of the cell"? Somebody's confused, here, and they're confusing the rest of us. At the end of our notorious "evolution and design" seminar at Cornell in 2006, the participants (including the founders of the Cornell IDEA club) all agreed with Clive: that ID is almost entirely confined to abiogenesis and the origin of the genetic code (as hypothesized by William Dembski) and, perhaps, the origin of a very few biochemical pathways (as hypothesized by Michael Behe). Beyond these two issues, evolutionary biology (i.e. the three, inter-related but separate, empirically verified theories of descent from common ancestors, exaptation via natural selection, and genetic drift over deep evolutionary time via neutral mutation) was virtually untouched by ID. So, if I had to choose, I would choose Clive's characterization about what ID is about: it's not about biological evolution at all, it's about how biology got started (i.e. abiogenesis), which is not part of the theory of biological evolution. Furthermore, I have stated many times that I believe that any theory of abiogenesis will remain forever speculative, as there cannot ever be empirical evidence (either direct or indirect) of any of the particulars of this process. Even if it eventually becomes possible to "model" abiogenesis in the laboratory, nothing guarantees that such a "model" process is how abiogenesis actually happened four billion years ago. And, since no record of what must have been a geochemical process remains in rocks dating from that time (indeed, there are no rocks dating from that time), I am fairly confident that this situation will always be the case. That's why I'm not particularly interested in abiogenesis, I'm interested in biology.Allen_MacNeill
November 21, 2009
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In comment #37 Mung wrote:
"...someone paid by the state to re-enforce the accepted dogma might say something like this and expect to profit from it."
That might, indeed, be the case, but that wouldn't be me. My paycheck comes from the "endowed" side of Cornell, not the "statutory" side, which means that I'm paid by my students via their tuition. And, since my evolution course is a voluntary elective, the only students taking it are the ones who want to do so (they're also the ones who consistently rate my course as one of the best they've taken while at Cornell). And, oddly enough, slightly less than half of my students (when anonymously polled at the beginning and the end of the course) agree with this sentence: "Man has evolved over millions of years, but that process was guided [either by God or by some "intelligent force", identity unspecified]." Isn't it somewhat disconcerting to find your most cherished prejudices undermined by the facts?Allen_MacNeill
November 21, 2009
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Evolutionary theory may gain more branches, it may gain more leaves, but it is still firmly rooted in the same soil, and it still draws it’s nutrients from the same place that it always has.
Darwin, 1859: The Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or The Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for LifeCabal
November 21, 2009
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Mr Mung, But I say to you, that evolutionary modeling does not take resources into account. That is an interesting position, and one that will shape our discussion on creating just such a model. I would appreciate it if you could expand upon your thoughts. Earlier in this message, I saw that your objection to scarce resources had slipped from driving natural selection to driving human evolution. Rather than accuse you unhelpfully of 'moving the goalposts', I'll just note that arguing a point about evolution from the current human condition, even averaged across all societies, is probably a bad idea. We are certainly still evolving, in the sense of our allele frequencies are changing, but the drivers of our evolution have little to with the classic drivers of metazoan evolution, I think. You probably need to go back to the Great Oxygen Catastrophe to find biota changing their own niche as much as we are.Nakashima
November 21, 2009
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To your numbered points, I find it hard to believe that you seriously question the existence of scarce resources. Since it is obvious that no resource is infinite, is your point a more subtle one, such as ‘most resources are adequate and renewable in biology, not scarce’?
I cannot recall a day where I have gone hungry and competed for resources unless it was my will to go hungry (e.g., fasting). So yes, I question whether it is competition for scarce resources which is driving human evolution. But I have also visited countries such as Kenya and India, where it can hardly be doubted by any reasonable person that individuals go hungry. Are they competing for scarce resources while I am not? Are they evolving while I am not?v Is it the "most fit" among them that is surviving and passing on theiur genes? And just what advantage are they passing on to their offspring? more poverty? Mr. Nakashima, I do not have any reason to doubt the existence of infinite resources, as evolutionary theory seems capable of an infinity of explanations. You appear to be concerned about my lack of faith. But I say to you, that evolutionary modeling does not take resources into account. I have to find your post. :(Mung
November 20, 2009
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Allen @15
It’s a new world out there, where design and purpose are steadily being overwhelmed by chaos and disintegration.
Pure, utter, bullsh*t. On the other hand, someone paid by the state to re-enforce the accepted dogma might say something like this and expect to profit from it. Darwinism? What Allen (and others of his ilk) are loathe to admit, is that the cell exhibits "exquisite" and "ingenious" design. Where is the evidence for this "chaos and disintegration" which Allen asserts is so prevalent in biology?Mung
November 20, 2009
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Nakashima, Ah, but that _is_ the science of the moment. The best finch in the forst is dead, and her descendants killed by deforestation, while the lowly finch, marginalized to some poor roost near the beach, has children all over the Galapagos that have become world famous. Substitute randomness for Providence and you are au courant. No, Nak - that is not the science of the moment. It's poetic gloss. And I can demonstrate as much. Compare my gloss to yours. Yours reads like a tragedy, mine reads like inspiration. In yours, you stress that the "best finch" (What in the world is such a thing?) is dead, while the "lowly finch"'s death - I take it she is not immortal - goes unmentioned in favor of describing her success. In mine, a finch's importance is not strictly determined - even lowly ones can achieve great things. My example stresses the potential and importance even for the disadvantaged. Why are we both, supposedly, describing the same thing - yet my story reads vastly different from yours? Because it's not science. It is poetics. A type of extra-scientific description. Even your ending isn't scientific. ID opponents repeatedly stress that identifying or ruling out guidance in nature is beyond science - so your distinction between "random" and "providence" is outside of science as well. Was it blind chance or divine intention? Don't ask science - no answer can be provided. The fact that you seemingly cannot tell what is actual science and what is dramatics and extra-scientific exposition makes me wonder how much damage so many anti-ID "defenders of science" are really doing to what they so often claim to cherish.nullasalus
November 20, 2009
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Nakashima, Wonderful. But poetics are not science, and the fact that you and Allen can put an anti-ID poetic gloss over the science replacing neo-darwinism is no more "cold comfort" to ID than someone being able to put a pro-ID poetic gloss over evo-devo should make the fall of neo-darwinism "cold comfort" for either of you. If your point of bringing up "virtue" and "darwinism" was merely to say "Well, darwinism was easier to understand. But the new understanding is more complicated.", again - wonderful. Somehow I don't think ID proponents are going to be distraught over the fact that biology and evolution is a far more complicated subject than we've previously been led to believe.nullasalus
November 20, 2009
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Mr Nullasalus, Why not try another poetic gloss? Say that, much like in other folk tales, the lowliest sparrow may – with a little bit of providence and some hard work – may play a vital role in the course of events. Oh, wait. Because that wouldn’t suit the aim of the moment. And what’s of central concern here is not the science, but the spin. Ah, but that _is_ the science of the moment. The best finch in the forst is dead, and her descendants killed by deforestation, while the lowly finch, marginalized to some poor roost near the beach, has children all over the Galapagos that have become world famous. Substitute randomness for Providence and you are au courant.Nakashima
November 20, 2009
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Mr Nullasalus, Yes, I think both Mr Macneill and myself were speaking poetically about certain humanistic reasons why "survival of the fittest" Darwinism would be a more familiar and comforable opponent that the alien landscape of neutral drift, spandrels, and founder effects. However, you have misparsed my sentence, compared to my intention. I apologize for being ambiguous. "Survival of the fittest" can be analogized to "virtue is rewarded", easily in our minds. Having apprehended the analogy, we might find it abhorrent. The point was how easy it was to grasp.Nakashima
November 20, 2009
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Nakashima, As with Allen, all you're really offering here is poetic gloss. Except with the added weirdness of not even getting Einstein right. First, Einstein's problem with QM as it was being offered had nothing to do with it being "fair" or "unfair", and certainly not with a "public roll of the dice". He had a philosophical commitment to determinism. If the dice rolls were not "public" but were still certain, determinism would be satisfied. Second, as for the poetic gloss - good God, you're worse at this than Allen himself. Trying to pass off neo-Darwinism as the view the virtuous behavior (honesty, cleverness, trustworthiness) would be consistently rewarded is nothing short of insane. Neo-Darwinism as the explanation that "good works are rewarded easily"? Are you even reading what you're writing? Why not try another poetic gloss? Say that, much like in other folk tales, the lowliest sparrow may - with a little bit of providence and some hard work - may play a vital role in the course of events. Oh, wait. Because that wouldn't suit the aim of the moment. And what's of central concern here is not the science, but the spin.nullasalus
November 20, 2009
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Mr Mung, Your lead comment is quite interesting, and has some imlications for our programming project. I think it’s also very questionable whether populations geometrically increase and that it is this “too many” competing for the “too few” resources that drives natural selection. So the fundamental Malthusian basis can be questioned on two accounts: 1. The assertion of scarce resources. 2. The assertion of uncontrolled population expansion. Consider that any population that succeeds in bringing (on average) more than one offspring per parent to reproductive age is increasing geometrically. Does this drive natural selection? No, it is only a method of delivering more variation to natural selection. A change in allele frequencies can still take place in a stable population or a shrinking population. There are also counter-examples such as cane toads in Australia evolving to invade new territories more quickly - though invasive species such as this also provide clear examples of geometric growth until a natural limit is reached. To your numbered points, I find it hard to believe that you seriously question the existence of scarce resources. Since it is obvious that no resource is infinite, is your point a more subtle one, such as 'most resources are adequate and renewable in biology, not scarce'? I've already noted that any replacement rate above unity is exponential, the only question is what is the first scarce resource. Arctic black flies would breed until their number weighed more than the planet, but there are not sufficient warm days in Siberia to let them. Yak would cover the planet, except there are not enough plants to eat during the winter. The lesson of invasive species is that the control on geometric growth rests in the environment, not in some innate limit that the species imposes on itself.Nakashima
November 20, 2009
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Allen MacNeill, You ask me how I reconcile Eugene Koonin's quote. But that's the funny thing - neither I, nor any other ID proponent, needs to "reconcile" anything with Koonin's stated view. Just as it would be inane to ask Margulis how she can "reconcile" her view of evolution as cooperative with quotes from colleagues that stress evolution as competitive. She can look at the data herself, give her own explanations of it, and justify an out and out denial her colleague's perspective, or even a broad denial with proper qualifications. Your presentation of ID is bizarrely off-base for someone who's been buzzing around the sites for years. ID as insisting evolution is "a process designed to produce perfection"? Please - not when ID proponents constantly point out that imperfection or "bad design" not being arguments against design. ID as presenting a designer who does "nothing by accident"? Goodness, Allen - is that what Behe says ID is about? Dembski? Mike Gene? Steve Meyer? Or are those views ones which ID proponents consistently argue are *outside* of ID and science itself? Your depiction of ID is absurd (and I say this as a sometimes-critic of ID), and I really have to wonder if it's due to ignorance or dishonesty. But here's what I really love: None of your "Even though Neo-Darwinism is dead in the water ID proponents aren't going to like this!" schtick gets by on the science. You're relying desperately on narrative and poetics you gloss over the science with. But what's comfort to ID is not determined by the energetic spin you personally give it (Disintegration! Chaos! Selfish! Nonsensical!), but the perspective ID proponents themselves bring to the table (Nanotechnology! Homeostatic! Biased! Brilliant!) So, sorry Allen. The "evolution is just sooooooo horrible a process that no designer would do it this way! We swear!" routine may work on YECs. But many ID proponents, many TEs, many people in general now see otherwise. Hell, as much as it bothers you, plenty of ID-leaning types see a lot of consonance between their views and evo-devo, Margulis' views, even Lovelock-style views. In other words, the evo-devo crowd - God love 'em! - are doing work on behalf of the ID crowd, in essence. So, thank you for the assistance, Allen. Thank you for helping to knock down neo-Darwinism. And thank you for the research. I'm sure many ID proponents and TEs alike will accept all these things gladly. Your shoddy "it's all so chaotic!" narrative, however? That you can keep. It's uninteresting, and an unpersuasive rendering of what's being discovered. But then, perhaps you knew that.nullasalus
November 20, 2009
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Mr MacNeill, Your words are very kind. I would be thrilled beyond measure if my remarks ever found a use in instructing your students.Nakashima
November 20, 2009
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The “evolving synthesis” is steadily moving away from where both ID supporters and the supporters of the “modern synthesis” thought was the heart of evolutionary biology.
It's only "moving away" from it in the sense that a tree "moves away" from it's roots, which is why so many of us remain skeptical. After all, it's not like it has "moved away" from home and taken on a life of it's own. Evolutionary theory may gain more branches, it may gain more leaves, but it is still firmly rooted in the same soil, and it still draws it's nutrients from the same place that it always has.Mung
November 20, 2009
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Just as we do not see any need for introducing supernatural forces in order to explain gravity, we don’t see any need for them in any other field of science including evolution.
Color me stunned! I missed the most amazing discovery!! The explanation of gravity!!! Who won the Nobel? But I agree, supernatural explanations are not needed. For God is the most natural being that could ever exist, for non-existence is not in his nature. Why, he could not NOT EXIST, if he wanted to. What could possibly be more natural than an entity which has no choice in the matter?Mung
November 20, 2009
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... we have also pointed out that the “modern evolutionary synthesis” has itself evolved to the point that evolutionary biology today is broader, more generally applicable, and less narrowly focused than at any time since the publication of the Origin of Species 150 years ago.
Walter ReMine calls it a "smorgasbord." You sort of pick and choose from it depending on the particular circumstance. I think he's correct. Maybe one day evolutionary theory will have it's own GUT(oE), but I am not holding my breath. It may be more "general" because you have more theories now than before, but that's not what most scientists think of when you talk of a general theory. Adding additional ad hoc theories on to an existing theory does not make it more general, it just makes more theories. Does this simple fact truly escape you? What is it that unifies the various and sundry "theories of evolution"? Is it that "ev0olution is a fact"? Is it that, "no designer would have done it like this"? Really, I'd like to know. Say one thing about evolution that is true in all cases, and show me how it's part of modern evolutionary theory.Mung
November 20, 2009
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Allen MacNeill @6
That’s why I’ve titled my forthcoming book The Darwinian Revolutions — there’s been more than one “evolution revolution”, with plenty more coming.
Looking for any feedback on it before it's published? So the "hardening" was the attempt to make it more mathematically rigorous, i.e., more scientific. And people were opposed to this. Like you and Will. But I'm sure that they jsut wanted to show how utterly compelling and inescapable it all is, to a mathematical certainty. For if it's less than certain that genes get fixed in populations, and this is what drives evolution, what are you left with? Maybe it happens, maybe it don't? And this is science?
Ironically, John Sanford and William Dembski (among others in the ID camp) have not moved beyond this narrow focus on theoretical population genetics, and so have apparently missed the fact that evolutionary biology has evolved far beyond the narrow theoretical focus of the mid-20th century.
There is nothing wrong with this narrow focus. For if Darwinian evolution is wrong at it's core, then it's still wrong, no matter how many bells and whistles (and ad hoc additional theories) you add to "the theory." The fact is, that there are still unresolved problems, even with population biology. Evolutionary theory can "evolve" if it likes, but just like the vaunted "nested hierarchy," if certain characteristics are lost over time, well, it just ain't nested anymore, and it sure isn't the same theory being sold to the public as "fact."Mung
November 20, 2009
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Clive,
ID in biology deals with abiogenesis
Does it? What does ID tell us about the origin of life, specifically? I thought ID was about the detection of design. Not the origin of life. Tell me something about the origin of life that can only be true if ID is required for the origin of life. Tell me something that can be tested.Victor Tussle
November 20, 2009
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Allen,
But, since adaptation is the heart and soul of ID (which is all about how things become purposeful in evolution), then the new discoveries are cutting the heart and soul out of ID.
Do you really think that adaptation is the heart and soul of ID? ID in biology deals with abiogenesis, which has nothing to do with adaptation, cellular machinery, motor neurons etc., and ID on the cosmological level has nothing to do with adaptation whatsoever. This is a baseless false dilemma you've created. And are you saying that things that arise in biological systems are not "purposeful"? I mean, clearly, they are, for they serve purposes, such as we understand now with epigenetics and supposedly junk dna that have a sort of meta-narrative when instructing the functional genes.
But the emerging picture of the genome (and the phenome for which it is at least partially responsible) is that, rather than being a coherent, homeostatic, apparently “rationally designed” entity, it is a frothing ocean of randomly varying nonsensical and furiously selfish genetic entities, none of which give a tinker’s dam about the phenome.
Nonsensical and selfish at the same time? Nonsensical and doesn't give a damn about something at the same time?
In other words, evolution isn’t a steady climb toward greater and greater complexity nor a process designed to produce perfection. No, it’s a process out of which adaptation and complexity arise almost as an afterthought in the “mind” of a universe bent wholly on self-annihilation.
Tell "climbing mount improbable" Richard Dawkins that. So do you think the universe has a mind that has afterthougts?Clive Hayden
November 20, 2009
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MacNeill,
The concept of natural selection as the foundation of evolutionary change has been largely “superseded”, mostly through the work of Motoo Kimura, Tomoko Ohta, and others, who have shown both theoretically and empirically that natural selection has little or no effect on the vast majority of the genomes of most living organisms.
I would have thought Kimura et al. had lost the neutrality-selection controversy. Consider this abstract:
Selection acting on genomic functional elements can be detected by its indirect effects on population diversity at linked neutral sites. To illuminate the selective forces that shaped hominid evolution, we analyzed the genomic distributions of human polymorphisms and sequence differences among five primate species relative to the locations of conserved sequence features. Neutral sequence diversity in human and ancestral hominid populations is substantially reduced near such features, resulting in a surprisingly large genome average diversity reduction due to selection of 19-26% on the autosomes and 12-40% on the X chromosome. The overall trends are broadly consistent with "background selection'' or hitchhiking in ancestral populations acting to remove deleterious variants. Average selection is much stronger on exonic (both protein-coding and untranslated) conserved features than non-exonic features. Long term selection, rather than complex speciation scenarios, explains the large intragenomic variation in human/chimpanzee divergence. Our analyses reveal a dominant role for selection in shaping genomic diversity and divergence patterns, clarify hominid evolution, and provide a baseline for investigating specific selective events.
From McVicker et al. (2009), PLOS Genetics. Doesn't this slightly contradict your view?jitsak
November 20, 2009
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MacNeill (#14): "Indeed, rather than producing the exquisitely perfect adaptations of living organisms, it is becoming clear that natural selection may be important only as that process that prevents the accelerating disintegration of the genome in the face of increasing chaos. In other words, evolution isn’t a steady climb toward greater and greater complexity nor a process designed to produce perfection. No, it’s a process out of which adaptation and complexity arise almost as an afterthought in the “mind” of a universe bent wholly on self-annihilation." Selection seems to still be the only known naturalistic directional force in adaptation. All the other sources of variation and other mechanisms now being uncovered are random with respect to reproductive fitness. If natural selection is only an "afterthought" in an overall process being seen as more and more chaotic, much more pressure is then being placed upon it to explain the origin of biological complexity, cell types, body plans, IC structures, etc. In modern evolutionary theory (whatever that is), it is still the only directional filtering force arising from natural law, and there is nothing fundamentally new in the debate. Otherwise it must be being proposed in a new MET that purely random change directly results in organized, adaptive complexity without even the filtering of selection.magnan
November 20, 2009
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"Arguments from incredulity are unconvincing"" Nonsense. Not when the examples pile up and the rationale for the findings are backed up by good science and logic. The term "incredulity" is used to convey a pejorative meaning to something but has no basis in the dichotomy referenced. It is all an argument based on likelihood. All the positive examples are piling up one one side while the other side has yet to provide a coherent example. Witness the latest debacle on bats. "positive evidence for non-natural mechanisms is required." Again nonsense. The ideologue may say this because they are on the losing end of the argument and must clasp as straws to discredit what they do not like. But to the logical person, the current evidence is persuasive. They are just not allowed to be exposed to it in the curriculum. Instead they are exposed to lies. What does that tell you? It tells you the weak position the anti ID side is in.jerry
November 20, 2009
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Jerry at 16, The choice is between 100% naturalistic and not 100% naturalistic changes in life forms. That sums up much of the underlying disagreement very well (although I believe there are some ID proponents who claim that ID is a scientific endeavor, even with the constraint of methodological naturalism). The dichotomy you note leads immediately to the question of how we could, even in principle, obtain objective, empirical evidence of non-naturalistic changes. Arguments from incredulity are unconvincing -- positive evidence for non-natural mechanisms is required. What might that look like? How could we investigate it using the tools of science?Mustela Nivalis
November 20, 2009
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"So, as I have said many times before, when ID supporters set their sights on “neo-Darwinism” as a target for criticism, they set their sights on a model that has been all but abandoned. The carnival has moved on, folks, and ID supporters are fighting battles that evolutionary biologists left behind a half century and more ago." Nonsense Allen and you know it. The choice is between 100% naturalistic and not 100% naturalistic changes in life forms. Nothing anyone has said on the planet has undermined that divide and the techniques of ID are just as appropriate to your scenario as to any of the evolutionary syntheses that have been put forth. So you can go on how the Darwinian paradigm is a false one, and we agree, but the questions thrown at it are just as applicable to anything you brought up. If there is to be an intelligent dialogue here then you should stop throwing your ad hominems and let's discuss the science. There is nothing new in what you have said so why try to denigrate those who oppose naturalistic evolution as out of touch. I have read Jablonka and Lamb's book and there is zero in it that contradicts ID. Zero, nothing, zilch, zip, nada, diddly-squat. That is not out of touch. You are also attacking nearly all the anti ID people on this blog with your comments. I suggest you proceed with a calm rational discussion and not imply that those here who support Darwinian processes are some how challenged in this debate. We agree that the anti ID people here appear challenged but your barbs are not appropriate for many on the pro ID side. We all want to learn, so let's see what we can learn from you. As an aside, why don't you go on Panda's Thumb and make your claims and let's see where it goes. It might be interesting and educational to observe.jerry
November 20, 2009
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nullasalus at 10, Quantum mechanics did not merely “extend Newton’s work” – it showed the previous, classical-mechanistic view of the world to be deeply flawed and flat-out wrong in some ways. Materialism took a savage beating as a direct result of this (one which was never really recovered from). There is nothing immaterial or non-material about quantum mechanics, it just shows that reality is far more complex than Newton was able to see. Newtonian mechanics is still useful, as is the modern synthesis, it just isn't the whole story. Physicists are still using the scientific method, based on methodological naturalism, to investigate quantum phenomena, just as biologists are using the scientific method to investigate and explain phenomena not explained by the modern synthesis. Reports of the death of materialism have been greatly exaggerated. Similarly, the advances which one may say are ‘extending Darwin’s work’ are extending it by utterly contradicting him. We have Allen MacNeill saying that “neo-Darwinism” – the horse ID proponents have been wailing on with both fists for quite some time – is actually a dying or dead horse anyway. That model is dead, and is being superseded. The model is not dead, merely incomplete. Any model that replaces it will have to explain exactly the same observations, as well or better, and the observations it does not explain. That's how science works. Methodological naturalism has proven to be a powerful underlying philosophy of science, leading to theories with great explanatory power. It's in no danger of being abandoned.Mustela Nivalis
November 20, 2009
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Allen MacNeill, From the beginning the debate has been about blind and undirected processes vs purposeful and directed processes. And what your position has failed to do is to demonstrate that blind and undirected processes can build new and useful protein machinery and change body plans. BTW no one is debating "evolution". And your list of mechanisms does not mean they are all blind and undirected processes.Joseph
November 20, 2009
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Nakashima in comment #13: I bow down to you, sir. What you have written here is brilliant stuff. 'nuff said!Allen_MacNeill
November 20, 2009
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In comment #13 Nakashima-san wrote:
"I think Mr Macneill’s point was not that neo-Darwinism died by criticism, rather it was replaced by another material explanation even less familiar and less comforting than the survival of the fittest."
As usual, Nakashima-san has it exactly right, and expressed it much more concisely than I have. The "evolving synthesis" is steadily moving away from where both ID supporters and the supporters of the "modern synthesis" thought was the heart of evolutionary biology. It's a new world out there, where design and purpose are steadily being overwhelmed by chaos and disintegration. Maybe the most appropriate religion for an up-to-date evolution denier would be Norski: The One-Eyed God has heard the future whispered in His ear by Huginn and Muninn, and proclaims to the world, Ragnarok is coming!Allen_MacNeill
November 20, 2009
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