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Defend the Children

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The madness will not end until we grasp the following truths:

1. There are hundreds of millions of guns in the US.

2. Even assuming for the sake of argument that it would be a desirable thing to do, no gun control law can eliminate all or even a small fraction of those guns.

3. Evil men will always be able to get a gun.

4. Schools are soft targets full of defenseless people.

5. We can’t hire enough cops to guard all of those people.

6. We need to equip and train school staff who are willing to do so to defend themselves and the children in their care.

7. Don’t tell me it can’t be done. It is being done in Israel.

Fight me. Show me that one of those statements is false.

979 Replies to “Defend the Children

  1. 1
    Viola Lee says:

    2 and 3 are loaded statement in that they skip over reasonable things that could be done, and would, in my opinion, be desirable things to do.

    Re 3, there are certainly things that could be done to make it much, much harder for evil men to get a gun.

    Re 2, it wouldn’t be a matter of “eliminating” the guns that already exist. It would be a matter of passing laws to make the purchase of new guns much more regulated, including licensing and insurance regulations similar to what we have for vehicles.

    But it’s interesting that Barry ends his post with “fight me”. Attitudes like that are one of the reasons why we can’t make any progress on this problem.

    I’ll also point out that it is not just schools where we have these mass murder problems: it’s churches, and grocery stores and music concerts and family gatherings and many other places where people congregate. Arming more and more people is not the solution.

  2. 2
    Eugene says:

    The solution is to accept these occasional mass shootings as unfortunate collateral damage from the still-allowed freedom for the populace to bear arms. Of course, these occasional mass shootings will continue to get more and more frequent until enough people will finally demand the government “to do something” as these shootings are ultimately promoted by the Controllers who think the solution is to have people corralled and treated as livestock. The Controllers do have a point though as at least 80% of the population clearly do not mind being treated as livestock. I am just curious what’s the plan for the remaining 20%.

  3. 3
    ET says:

    Viola Lee:

    Re 3, there are certainly things that could be done to make it much, much harder for evil men to get a gun.

    Such as?

    Re 2, it wouldn’t be a matter of “eliminating” the guns that already exist. It would be a matter of passing laws to make the purchase of new guns much more regulated, including licensing and insurance regulations similar to what we have for vehicles.

    That only works for people trying to get a gun legally.

  4. 4
    ET says:

    We can make schools hardened targets, though. For a start make them into gated communities with security cameras and locked entry.

  5. 5
    Viola Lee says:

    ET, most schools do have locked entries and security cameras now, and most bigger schools have security personnel.

  6. 6
    ET says:

    Most is not all. How did he gain entry?

    And getting a gun in Texas is too easy. Shame on Texas for being a State of dumbasses. Apologies, but their gun laws are from the 18th century.

  7. 7
    JHolo says:

    A bigger question. Why don’t we see school shootings in other western nations to the same degree we do in the US?

    Rather that deluding ourselves that the US is the best country in the world and that others should use the US as the model, why doesn’t the US suck on the humble stick and start learning from other countries.

    For example. The neighbours to the north, even though greatly influenced by US media and culture, do not have the number of school shootings the US does. They don’t lock down the schools, don’t have metal detectors, don’t have armed guards or armed teachers.

  8. 8
    BobRyan says:

    It is not firearms that are the problem. The vast majority of legal gun owners do not commit crimes. It is a mental health problem that is being ignored.

    We need to go back to being able to put people back in institutions.

  9. 9
    JHolo says:

    Just to put it in perspective. The US has had 288 school shootings in 2022 so far. The next highest is Mexico, with 8. This is not mass shootings, just the illegal discharge of firearms on school property.

    And there are some who think the solution is to have more guns in schools.

  10. 10
    JHolo says:

    BR: We need to go back to being able to put people back in institution

    Most western nations no longer routinely institutionalize those with mental health issues. They treat them. How do you explain the disproportionate incidents of gun violence in the US? What is the biggest difference between the US and other countries?

  11. 11
    BobRyan says:

    Germany has some of the strictest gun laws in Europe, yet shootings still happen. Just because something is not legal to get, does not mean people cannot get what they want.

    Fentanyl is not legal, yet people OD every day from using it. Alcohol was banned, which was a boon for organized crime.

    https://abcnews.go.com/International/dead-shooting-german-city-hanau/story?id=69082981

  12. 12
  13. 13
    BobRyan says:

    The point is that shootings still happen, regardless of the laws in place. It is illegal to purposely run people over with vehicles, yet it happens. It is illegal to use a knife with intent to murder, yet it happens. A lot of things are illegal that happen every day. People intent on committing harm, will commit harm.

  14. 14
    JVL says:

    BobRyan: People intent on committing harm, will commit harm.

    Of course, but how easy do you want it to be for them to kill tens of people? A person with a knife is easier to stop than someone with an assault rifle.

    Speaking of vehicles . . . you need to have a license and insurance to use a vehicle, why not have that for guns? The responsible owners (like my relatives) will not be stopped from owning their weapons.

  15. 15
    BobRyan says:

    JVL

    People steal cars everyday. They are not concerned about laws preventing them from doing so, sometimes at gunpoint during carjackings. There are laws on the books preventing people with felonies from owning firearms who get them illegally on the streets.

  16. 16
    AaronS1978 says:

    Actually in most states you have to have a gun permit, pass a background check, and proof of ID

    It’s not easy and normally expensive

    The current Incident the shooter did NOT acquire the gun through legal means like most perps

    The only people you punish with your mode of thought are the people that follow the rules in the first place

    If you want to be helpful instead of blaming the tool and using this as an excuse to take the tool away how about we figure out what motivated the individual to do this in the the first place

    No one wakes up and goes “ya know I feel like shooting up a class room of kids and getting my self killed, if only I had a gun…. Whoa a gun I’m gonna kill me some kids because now it’s easy cause I gots the guns”

    They planned something like this and it was on their minds for months, the gun didn’t motivate them, they were already motivated to get the gun or what ever tool they needed to get the job done. (a hatchet is pretty effective at killing defenseless kids locked in a class room so is easy to make mustard gas)

    If you want this type of horror to end figure out what motivates it in the first place and prevent that

    Nobody says the brushes made the artist paint a picture, it was a motivated artist not a brush motivating the artist

    Lastly it strikes me as oddly convenient things these happen to the most vulnerable and most shocking to do it to. It’s almost staged but I really trust our government now……..

  17. 17
    Fred Hickson says:

    The current Incident the shooter did NOT acquire the gun through legal means like most perps

    You sure? I read he bought the assault rifle (who needs an assault rifle?) on his eighteenth birthday.

  18. 18
    Fred Hickson says:

    I see I was wrong.

    The shooter bought, not one, but two assault rifles from a store on his eighteenth birthday.

  19. 19
    BobRyan says:

    Most of what the media and politicians refer to as assault rifles are .22, which is one of the smallest calibers there is. They are good for small game hunting, since larger calibers will not leave much in the way of game.

    The UK has very strict gun laws making it almost impossible to legally own firearms. That does not stop firearms from getting to the people illegally.

    “Pistols, revolvers and shotguns are the firearms most frequently used illegally in the UK.
    Whilst fully-automatic weapon seizures are very rare, we have seen a gradual increase and are working to prevent the supply into the UK. A substantial number of shootings involve firearms that have been illegally converted, modified or reactivated. This includes blank firearms that have been modified to fire.”
    https://www.nationalcrimeagency.gov.uk/what-we-do/crime-threats/firearms

  20. 20
    AaronS1978 says:

    Oh I stand mistaken

    How convenient two AR-15 the bane of liberals everywhere………..

    I read earlier that it was a handgun now it’s turned into two AR-15

    I guess there’s a lot of stories going around but my point still stands and again with an interesting choice given the political craziness over that particular gun

  21. 21
    AaronS1978 says:

    So Fred I was wrong but as you being right solve the actual issue, I miss read a news post again, now did that gun make this kid just fly off the rocker and shoot all those other kids?

    Have you ever dealt with the border or been to the Arizona Sonoran border

    My brother and several other buddies of mine have, they’re part of border patrol

    The people they deal with have real assault weapons, none are owned legally and the drug cartels don’t care to follow your rules

    Do blanket gun restrictions help with that

    Do blanket gun restrictions help with the Unabomber and other people like him

    Do blanket go to restrictions help with Terrorists

    How about violent criminals

    You’re being right on one thing and me being wrong doesn’t solve the initial problem

    You won’t be able to get all the weapons away from everybody that’s so unrealistic, solve why they’re doing it and you’ll do everybody a favor

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1505606/Kongsberg-attack-Norway-bow-and-arrow-man-dead-killed-terror-latest-news-updates-police

  22. 22
    Fred Hickson says:

    Just thinking that an eighteen year old kid can easily buy something over the counter that enables him to rapidly and efficiently kill twenty people is maybe too much.

  23. 23
    Fred Hickson says:

    Just thinking a little more. There are many other countries where gun ownership is very low. What are they missing?

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country

  24. 24
    BobRyan says:

    The Buffalo shooter was taken in for a mental health check and let go. It is extremely difficult to institutionalize anyone against their will. People who shoot up schools or markets are not mentally stable. People who do that are psychopaths.

    “No matter where one stands on the long-debated question of whether “nothing works” when it comes to criminal rehabilitation,7 there is no doubt that the psychopath has grossly distorted the inquiry. Psychopaths are not only much more likely than non-psychopaths to be imprisoned for committing violent crimes,8 they are also more likely to finagle an early release using the deceptive skills that are part of their pathologic toolbox,9 and then, once released, are much more likely to recidivate, and to recidivate violently.10”
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4059069/

  25. 25
    AaronS1978 says:

    Well Fred just vote joe and dem during the midterms, things are moving alone swimmingly under their current guidance don’t you think

    It’s sooooooo odd that suddenly we get this, monkey poxes, and a leaked overturning of Roe vs Wade just months before the midterm just like Covid and Russia right before the election……

  26. 26
    Fred Hickson says:

    I’ll probably vote with my feet. The way politics is so polarised in the US, the best way for both gun enthusiasts and people like me who’d prefer not to have one nor be killed by one is to live in a state with the preferred legislation regarding firearms ownership and control.

  27. 27
    BobRyan says:

    Violent psychopaths commit violence. They tell people exactly what they are going to do and follow through. Every mass shooter is a violent psychopath. Sane people do not commit mass murder. It is long past times to change the laws to make it easier to institutionalize them before they can carry through with violent action.

  28. 28
    Bob O'H says:

    BobRyan –

    The UK has very strict gun laws making it almost impossible to legally own firearms. That does not stop firearms from getting to the people illegally.

    And when was the last mass shooting in the UK? Dunblane, wasn’t it? So if the purpose is to reduce gun deaths, the laws seem to have worked. Strict gun laws won’t stop everyone from owning a gun, but if they stops some, and thus reduces gun deaths significantly, then they will have worked.

  29. 29
    Barry Arrington says:

    So far almost everyone has ignored my post and simply stuck their opinions about gun control in the combox. VL gave some vague “we oughta do something” platitudes without actually countering any of my points.

    Come on people. This is life and death we are talking about here. Address the points raised. Perhaps the most vital point is 1. We have hundreds of millions of guns. It does no good for anyone to say “why can’t we be more like Canada?” We are not like Canada. We will never be like Canada. Take your head out of the sand and deal with facts as they are. Accept that we will never eliminate access to guns. It is not possible even if it were desirable. And having accepted that stark ineluctable reality, address the remaining points. Wake up. Wishful thinking is not the solution.

  30. 30
    kairosfocus says:

    H’mm, late to the exchange. I was not monitoring news but found this just now:

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10850557/Active-shooter-loose-Texas-elementary-school-campus-plunged-lockdown.html

    At least NINETEEN primary school children shot dead by ‘bullied’ high school student, 18, who posted photos of rifles on Instagram and went on the rampage ‘after an argument with his grandmother about failing to graduate’
    Nineteen pupils aged between seven and 11 are dead after another mass shooting at an elementary school
    Xavier Lopez, 10, Uziyah Garcia, nine, Makenna Elrod, 10, Amerie Jo Garcia, 10, Eliahana Torres, 10, and Ellie, whose age and surname were not immediately available, among the dead at Robb Elementary School, Texas
    Eva Mireles, 44, and Irma Garcia, both teachers, were killed in attack that began around 11.30am Tuesday
    Salvador Ramos, 18, identified as gunman who shot his grandmother before driving to the school and opening fire, before he was shot dead by a Border Patrol agent a short time later
    Joe Biden condemned the killings and opened gun control debate, urging voters to ‘turn this pain into action’
    By CHRIS PLEASANCE and GINA MARTINEZ and HARRIET ALEXANDER FOR DAILYMAIL.COM

    PUBLISHED: 18:44 BST, 24 May 2022 | UPDATED: 09:07 BST, 25 May 2022

    Sheer nihilism, and obviously if no guns were to hand he could have rammed a car into a crowd as happened last Christmas, maybe even loading it with ANFO and setting it off as a ghastly finale. He could even have got or made a machete and sharpened it “back and belly” turning it into a sword with a terrible false edge for the back hand stroke. There was a horrific attack on a village in Jamaica in 1959 by a crazed man who was caught, tried and hanged in short order.

    Of course, hardly anyone in a deep rural village would have had a gun.

    So, instantly we separate mass murder from the controlling surveillance state and linked firearms confiscation pushes. We need to see what can be done to address the nihilism and to catch the violent deranged ahead of time. As for ghoulish cultural marxist pols waiting to jump on convenient cases and incidents to push their lawless oligarchy, surveillance state and reduction of the public to defenceless, manipulated sheep waiting to be shorn or taken to be served as lunch at will, their selection of convenient cases from pandemics to massacres is all we need to note.

    So, what can be done?

    Longtime denizens of UD know my position.

    1: Every able bodied person of sound mind is duty bound to uphold and as necessary defend the civil peace of justice, not just armed police and soldiery. Call this the unorganised militia principle.

    2: In an age of mass terror and mass murdering nihilists and mad men, artificially disarmed places are soft targets waiting for vultures to pounce, so job 1 is to arm and discipline a civilian marshal corps, under LOCAL control but facing military discipline.

    3: Under this, murderous or potentially murderous misuse of weapons, tools, objects or implements is violation of the uniform code of MILITARY justice and faces court martial, complete with shot at dawn. Trial, before officers of the militia/military, chaired by a duly sworn in trained lawyer.

    4: Each institutional site should organise a local militia, properly armed and with an oversight watch. Similarly, each public event or space. Integrated with local police especially the Shire Reff, i.e. Sheriff.

    5: BA is right on each of his points, and is a world expert on the paradigm massacre, Columbine:

    – 1 is notorious and pols playing usurpation games make it even more obvious
    – 2 is manifest as rightly a gun confiscation push will be seen as a step to lawless oligarchical tyranny and hopeless subjugation under heirs of Hitler, Stalin, Mao et al. See the estimates of how many would have to be killed in the late sixties
    – 3 is obvious, are you going to track down 150 years of manufacture, every serious machine shop, every garage with tools, etc, not to mention every place one can get charcoal, sulphur, saltpetre [every dung heap], even sugar or sawdust?
    – 4 is a consequence of feel good disarmament and is sustained by agit prop
    – 5 is manifest, we need the militia principle
    – 6 says, form the militia unit and train and arm it
    – 7 is so, long ago we had a famous picture of a class trip with a supervisory adult with a slung M1 Carbine

    6: Now, we need to update arming. For rapid response, 9 mm parabellum pistols, compact or extended to sizes that enhance accuracy.

    7: We note, the US Military has gone with the 6.8 x 51 mm cartridge with a stainless head to take 80 to 120 kpsi giving 3000 fps from a 13 + inch barrel or thereabouts. The issue is range and more effective ballistic protection. This is in longer barrels and with smart scopes easy at 800m and feasible up to 1200m. But it carries a significant kick though extension of artillery style mechanisms can tame it. Hot loads like this are also barrel eaters, maybe 15k rounds life, and one needs regular practice. Expensive.

    8: I think, pro backup and perhaps, key access points, with armour piercing rounds. Shooting that in crowded spaces with thin walls is a nightmare. But that is where things are being pushed.

    9: Consider, armour control, so it is hard to get the sort of armour that would force use of such without very high weight penalty.

    10: Despite US opinion, I think the bullpup makes a lot of sense and point to the Tavor. I think, still, 6.5 mm Grendel makes sense as basic load, better sense to me than the .277 fury loaded to 80 kpsi. That’s 800 – 1,000 m, and the Creedmoor would give extra long range coverage. I do not favour 5.56 mm.

    11: Layered defence.

    KF

  31. 31
    kairosfocus says:

    FH, almost certainly, the shooter did not have, selective fire, intermediate round, high capacity magazine military rifles built around statistics that battlefield shooting is rarely beyond 300 m.In the US M16 family, 5.56 is the standard. He likely had a semi automatic rifle, perhaps with high capacity magazine and the similar .223 intermediate round. If he had an AK, .30 cal x 39 mm. Texas is next door to Mexico with a border largely undefended by policy — oh building a wall is racist etc — where a civil war rages. Genuine assault rifles are accessible through the same means by which crack and opioids are. Notice, a border patrol agent quickly stopped the massacre by shooting the murderer, that is highlighting the significance of a good guy with a gun close by. KF

    PS, there is a reason for the first 10 amendments to the US constitution, note especially 1, 2, 4.

  32. 32
    Barry Arrington says:

    KF has fleshed out and expanded on the basic theme. Progressives talk about “common sense” gun control all the time (it is like a mantra). Well, KF has laid plenty of common sense on ya. What are you going to do with it? I suspect the progressives will run around with their hands on their ears yelling “la la la la I can’t hear you.”

    Leftist failure in this area is of a piece with leftist failures everywhere. They approach problems assuming the world is as they wish it were, not as it manifestly is.

  33. 33
    asauber says:

    Brain-Dead Zombie Leftists yell Gun Control, like it’s the only thing you can do as a reaction.

    Andrew

  34. 34
    kairosfocus says:

    ASauber, what about looney control too, as in properly supervised institutionalisation and control to protect the public even if we cannot treat the disease? And, what can be done to treat.? is ritalin a factor in this case? KF

  35. 35
    asauber says:

    KF,

    I know right? There are a lot of questions here that Gun Control doesn’t address. Gun Control is not going to fix bullying in schools, either. Leftists are running most of these schools, and they have pretty much destroyed education in America.

    Andrew

  36. 36
    kairosfocus says:

    Asauber, that raises, school control, given that parents raising unwelcome issues in board meetings have been subjected to police state actions and abuse of terrorism law. H’mm abuse of terrorism law should be treated as a UCMJ violation with shot at dawn as a possible outcome too if bad enough; the old hebraic principle was, if you used knowing false witness to subject someone to death or the like, then you suffered the fate you intended for the other. Play lawfare, get court martialed in response under UCMJ. KF

    PS, what of the Schaeffer-Koop domino effect, has the blood guilt of 63 million undermined sanctity of life and contributed to nihilism? What about what Plato had to say in The Laws, Bk X?

  37. 37
    jerry says:

    Biden’s reaction has nothing to do with preventing deaths. Just as accusations of racism have nothing to do with race. Nor does any of the other talking points have anything to do with fairness for anyone. Nor does claims of climate extremes have any logic in preventing harm from future climate changes. Nor did public health controls do anything to stop the virus from doing what all viruses do.

    They are blatant attempts using fear to foster emotional responses to gain control. It’s always from one side of the political spectrum.

    The interesting thing is how stupid the educated are that support these programs. Don’t they know that their current ability to express opinions will be suppressed too?

             It’s only a matter of time before the
             Montagnards kill the Girondists.

  38. 38
    Barry Arrington says:

    People often notice that mass shootings in schools are a new thing that seemed to start with Columbine. What changed? It certainly is not the availability of guns, which have been ubiquitous in the US for centuries.

    As KF notes, I had occasion to become an expert on Columbine. I viewed all of the videos Eric Harris** made, listened to all of his audiotapes, and read all of the writings he left behind. I deposed his parents and others.

    Here is my conclusion. The thing that has changed is that American schools affirmatively teach that human life is not exceptional, far less sacred. (See today’s EN, which carries a story about a professor pushing this very line). Is it a mere coincidence the killings have increased as life has been devalued? Common sense would suggest it is not. Harris was not stupid. He learned his lesson. His teachers taught him Darwin and Nietzche. On the day of the shootings he wore a shirt with “Natural Selection” emblazoned on it. No, it was not a coincidence. The American education system has sown the wind. We are witnessing it reap the whirlwind.

    ________
    **I focus on Harris. He was the leader. Klebold was a follower.

  39. 39
    asauber says:

    BA,

    Indeed. Why would this poor kid want to go back to THE SCHOOL, of all the places he could go, and kill everyone there?

    Obviously had a bad experience. The SCHOOL is on the hook, IMO, because they claim to know what they are doing, and are going to produce good kids. Obviously not.

    Andrew

  40. 40
    Viola Lee says:

    Barry writes, “The thing that has changed is that American schools affirmatively teach that human life is not exceptional, far less sacred.”

    Bullshit!

    Same to asuaber.

  41. 41
    kairosfocus says:

    VL, first we do not need to go into a spiral to the gutter on language. Second, it was routine for kids to take guns to school or be a part of shooting clubs in schools in the past, try, go hunting before or after school. Third in the further past older kids were to bring guns as part of defence against raids. The systematic devaluation of our intelligent conduct is a fact as is undermining of sanctity of life. Multiply by huge blood guilt. KF

  42. 42
    ET says:

    Viola Lee- evolution teaches kids that humans are not exceptional. In Columbine one of the shooters wore a “natural selection” t shirt. And given the mass slaughter wrought by abortions, it is a given that kids notice that, too.

    Just think if there were 2,000+ dead EACH DAY from school or mass shootings. That’s the level of carnage abortion brings to the table.

    For a society to allow the mass the slaughter of their most vulnerable and then whine about guns, is about as hypocritical as a society can get.

  43. 43
    asauber says:

    Yes, Respect for Life is a significant issue here. Leftists don’t get it. Sigh.

    Andrew

  44. 44
    Viola Lee says:

    I’m leaving. Your guys ideology is unconscionable. It’s one thing to play fun-and-games about philosophical issues and another to heartlessly blame schools and teachers for what is in fact a totally unjustified love affair with guns and … I can’t even begin to think about how wrong you are all to be making ideological hay out of such a tragedy.

  45. 45
    asauber says:

    “heartlessly blame schools and teachers”

    VL,

    I didn’t blame teachers. They are often hamstrung by school administration.

    Andrew

    VL Running Away = “la la la la I can’t hear you.”

  46. 46
    Barry Arrington says:

    VL
    “Bullshit!”
    Oh what a stunning rejoinder filled with eloquence, evidence and logic. I stand corrected.

  47. 47
    Barry Arrington says:

    Andrew at 45. I called it didn’t I.

  48. 48
    jerry says:

    I can’t even begin to think about how wrong you are all to be making ideological hay out of such a tragedy

    Just the opposite.

    No one here wants to see anyone die unnecessarily. The hypocrisy (ideological hay) is coming from one side of the political spectrum.

  49. 49
    asauber says:

    “Andrew at 45. I called it didn’t I.”

    BA,

    You did.

    Andrew

  50. 50
    Barry Arrington says:

    VL:

    blame schools and teachers for what is in fact a totally unjustified love affair with guns

    It is as if they literally cannot think. No one disputes that guns were widely available for centuries. As KF points out, there was a time when older students routinely brought them to school for various reasons. But here’s VL blaming this new phenomenon on the availability of guns, as if that it the thing that is new when it manifestly is not. It is hard to understand such obstinance in the face of the facts.

  51. 51
    Bob O'H says:

    From the OP –

    1. There are hundreds of millions of guns in the US.

    390m, apparently (give or take quite lot).

    2. Even assuming for the sake of argument that it would be a desirable thing to do, no gun control law can eliminate all or even a small fraction of those guns.

    You claim this is truth, so what evidence do you have to support it?

    FWIW, I’m pretty sure this is not true: a law that said that nobody can own a gun would, if enforced diligently enough, eliminate a lot of guns. The problem, I think , is not if it’s possible, rather it’s whether the costs of doing it are too high, compared to the benefits, and more generally what level of action has an appropriate cost/benefit ratio.

    3. Evil men will always be able to get a gun.

    I think there is, implicitly, an if they try hard enough on this, isn’t there?

    4. Schools are soft targets full of defenseless people.

    Defenceless seems an exaggeration, especially when this discussion is in the context of an attack where the perpetrator was engaged by the police before he entered the school.

    5. We can’t hire enough cops to guard all of those people.

    You can if you’re willing to put the resources in. So, in contrast to point 3, this is wrong if you’re prepared to put the effort in. Thus, this truth is not true.

    6. We need to equip and train school staff who are willing to do so to defend themselves and the children in their care.

    This is an opinion, not truth. it is one possible approach, but there are others.

    7. Don’t tell me it can’t be done. It is being done in Israel.

    The first statement isn’t a truth. For the second, what evidence do you have? From what I can find online, Israel doesn’t arm its teachers: it has security guards at schools, as well as stricter gun control laws.

  52. 52
    Barry Arrington says:

    Look for progressives to continue to push for schools to maintain their status as soft targets.
    It is like they believe that if one puts up a sign that says, “Gun Free Zone” at the entrance of a school, the next evil man bent on violence will walk up to the door and see the sign and sigh, say “darn,” hang his head and walk away. Such foolishness is astonishing.

  53. 53
    asauber says:

    “next evil man bent on violence will walk up to the door”

    Which may be one of their own products.

    Andrew

  54. 54
    Barry Arrington says:

    Bob thinks the government can confiscate 390 million guns in the US. When someone says something that screamingly stupid, it is safe to ignore the rest of what they say. Again, the typical progressive. Assume the world is as I wish it to be, not as it actually is.

    Bob, progressives’ mulish insistence on believing the manifestly untrue is why we can’t even begin to solve this problem. But by all means, go ahead. Keep on insisting that this or that gun control measure will fix things. Or slap another “gun free zone” sign on the door. And the blood will continue to flow while those failed policies accomplish what they have always accomplished. Nothing.

  55. 55
    AaronS1978 says:

    VL I’m not sure where the idea of love affair with guns trumps the teachers lives came from

    What is being said and ignored is gun control does not fix this problem

    And what is being criticized is the knee jerk reaction of gun control which does nothing to solve the issue of why people are doing these heinous things in the first place

    Also on human exceptionalism in school. what schools do you go to or taught at, not one in the maricopa school system here even mentions human exceptionalism in normal classes. You have to go to specific classes and even get permission slips/waivers to attend a class about topics like that as they are considered Controversial

    Evolution is almost immediately taught in every biology class, every student has to take biology, Philosophy and religion are entirely optional unless you are Mormon which you will go to seminary if it is available on the campus

    It’s been like this since I was in school and I am 44

    So screaming bullshit that schools don’t teach human exceptionalism seems more like a knee-jerk reaction of I hate religion and I assume every school teaches human exceptionalism

    Honestly I think schools need to actually have some type of class to teach humans beings that we are the Apex species because we are the most dangerous species on the planet, can cause the most damage, And we need to be able to take responsibility for ourselves so we can keep our a little blue marble safe because we only have one

    By the way Jerry Coyne in Chicago often teaches how we are nothing more than meat robots and we are anything but exceptional that is far more common than you give credence to and it’s kind of upsetting

  56. 56
    asauber says:

    So I’m trying to find out more background about the shooter, but info is not easy to find.

    Andrew

  57. 57
    Bob O'H says:

    Bob thinks the government can confiscate 390 million guns in the US.

    No, Barry, I don’t, and have never claimed it.

    Now we’ve established that I didn’t say (or rather write) something screamingly stupid. would you care to defend your claim that “no gun control law can eliminate all or even a small fraction of those guns”?

  58. 58
    kairosfocus says:

    BA,

    actually, we care seeing programmed turnabout projection to the other, backed by crooked yardstick commitments. To critique a failed policy is to blame teachers, who are obviously blameless so those who attack teachers can be sidelines; when in fact teachers are not being blamed.

    Then, BO’H, for one, apparently overlooked my earlier comment:

    [30:] – 2 is manifest as rightly a gun confiscation push will be seen as a step to lawless oligarchical tyranny and hopeless subjugation under heirs of Hitler, Stalin, Mao et al. See the estimates of how many would have to be killed in the late sixties
    – 3 is obvious, are you going to track down 150 years of manufacture, every serious machine shop, every garage with tools, etc, not to mention every place one can get charcoal, sulphur, saltpetre [every dung heap], even sugar or sawdust?
    – 4 is a consequence of feel good disarmament and is sustained by agit prop

    Going further, I have been saying the US has been in a 4th gen civil war since about 2017, one that uses unconventional tactics so it can be manipulated to not be an obvious war. Think about Hitler’s push across the 1930’s that put Germany in a powerful position when he began to carve up his next victim, Poland. War does not always look like war.

    I think the pushers do not expect radicals to directly win in the US. They want distraction and polarisation that cripples ability to act geostrategically until it is too late. China is clearly making moves on Taiwan to break out of the island line that holds it back from blue ocean naval thrusts. If the US manages to fatally cripple itself, bonus but not necessary for the big break through.

    Coming back, there is a way that would work, is working in Israel: harden the targets. Remember the suicide bombing campaign 20+ years ago?

    It is time to test some yardsticks to see which ones are crooked.

    KF

  59. 59
    chuckdarwin says:

    Barry Arrington/32

    Mr. Arrington appears to endorse KF’s “common sense” approach (#30) to dealing with gun violence in the US, which includes vigilantism and imposition of military tribunals. Despite KF’s ostensible love affair with the Bill of Rights, he apparently has a dim view of the Sixth Amendment.

    The United States is awash in guns–estimated at 390+ million civilian guns in circulation. We have enough guns for every man, woman and child in the country with 50 to 60 million guns to spare. 50% of all domestic dispute homicides involve a gun. Between 1985 and 2015, gun violence in PG-13 movies has tripled. (https://news.osu.edu/hollywoods-love-of-guns-increases-the-risk-of-shootings–both-on-and-off-the-set/)

    We glorify guns and gun use in the USA then express “shock” when a mentally disturbed teen plays out his (it is always a “his”) macabre fantasy in a grocery store or grade school. We attribute it to “evil,” or “leftists,” or “unarmed teachers,” or “soft zones.” But the sad reality is that easy gun access is common to every one of these incidents. And that is not going away….

  60. 60
    asauber says:

    Glorified violence is presented in pop culture. Definitely a big problem.

    Andrew

  61. 61
    Barry Arrington says:

    Bob at 57.
    Perhaps it would be helpful if you respond to the 7 points without all of your weasel words. Your responses to 1 and 2, for example, lead directly to the conclusion I drew. Do you think mass confiscation is possible? If so, stand up and say so. If not, say that too. Your failure to speak clearly is not helpful.

  62. 62
    Barry Arrington says:

    And right on cue, chuckdawrin joins the discussion advancing a “widespread availability of guns is the problem” argument as if guns were not widely available for centuries before mass shootings at schools became a thing. Get a clue Chuck. Availability of guns is not the variable that changed. Focusing on the variable that did not change to explain the change is stupid. Try again.

    BTW Chuck, do you agree or disagree with points 1 and 2 in the OP?

  63. 63
    kairosfocus says:

    CD, what part of organised civilian marshals under UCMJ and coordinated with the sheriffs who are county level elected senior policing officers constitutes vigilantism? I call you out for slander to set up a convenient distraction. It means you don’t have an argument on the merits but feel you must taint the other to get your way, first with rhetoric. Do you not see why we have to draw train of abuses and usurpations inferences? Further to which, what part of harden the likely targets as is seen in Israel is not sound policy? And if school officials refuse vote them out or in extremis cancel their school systems and erect a better one, under local control, s/he who pays the taxes gets the vote to reform or if necessary replace failed government. . KF

    PS, just remember you are slandering someone who just lost a first cousin to murderous gunmen in a UKOT with gun laws far tighter than any the US is likely to have.

    PPS, notice 60 miles from an improperly guarded border across which criminal drug cartels are routinely using full automatic weapons. If guns were not in use as I noted cars driven into crowds and bombs would do.

  64. 64
    Fred Hickson says:

    USA with its institutionalised love of guns is an outlier compared to anywhere in the world and some commenters here suggest a solution is more guns? There are many practical steps that could be taken to reduce gun violence. There’s no panacea but it would be a start if there could be a sensible dialogue. Gun safety, gun storage, proper training and vetting. Where do unlicensed guns come from? Someone must be manufacturing and selling them. But if gun nuts won’t even consider sensible moves to reduce death and injury and there isn’t a consensus then nothing will change.

    And I repeat, why on Earth does anyone need an automatic assault rifle?

  65. 65
    Bob O'H says:

    Barry @ 61 –

    Your responses to 1 and 2, for example, lead directly to the conclusion I drew. Do you think mass confiscation is possible?

    Is there any chance you could back up your assertion in 2 first? It might help move this discussion forward if you presented the evidence for what you claim is a truth.

  66. 66
    JVL says:

    Bob O’H: And when was the last mass shooting in the UK? Dunblane, wasn’t it? So if the purpose is to reduce gun deaths, the laws seem to have worked.

    Most people in the UK don’t see any need for owning a firearm. It is possible but you have to have a good reason plus you have to pass safety checks, prove you have a safe and secure storage place, register with the local police force and other things. But, basically, very few people want to have a gun.

    England and America share a long standing fairly common cultural background but I think England (and Scotland and Wales) had their ‘wild west’ period a long time ago. They figured out that while it might still sometimes be necessary to shoot foreigners mostly it’s better to find other ways to manage domestic conflicts. (Domestic as in not foreign, not necessarily in the home.)

    So, yes sometimes some kid beats up and kills an old person for money. Sometimes someone does get a bit loopy and kills a number of people with a gun or several guns but very, very rarely.

  67. 67
    Barry Arrington says:

    And Fred Hickson jumps in with a “Why can’t we just be more like Canada” argument. Fred, the US is not like Canada. It will never be like Canada. Wishing the US were more like Canada is not helpful in addressing the issues. Do you have anything helpful to add to the conversation. Again, wishful thinking gets us nowhere.

    BTW, vague platitudes about gun control laws that have already proved to be useless are not helpful.

    Oh, and your last sentence demonstrates that you do not have the first clue about firearms. “Automatic” vs “Semi-Automatic” is a basic distinction that seems beyond your ken. Also, “assault rifle” is not an actual classification outside of the military (and these rifles were not military weapons). Maybe you should be able to discuss firearms at a Romper Room level before jumping into the debate.

    Finally, please refer to the OP. Do you agree or disagree with the 7 truths?

  68. 68
    relatd says:

    Viola Lee at 40,

    You should get kicked out of this forum for nonsense like that. Do you think using expletives grants you some power? Some right to use expletives? Not helpful at all.

  69. 69
    Fred Hickson says:

    I proudly confirm I don’t have the first clue about fire-arms. And I don’t have a clue why some are so in love with them.

    Maybe we could consider changes to this:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protection_of_Lawful_Commerce_in_Arms_Act

  70. 70
    ET says:

    The USA was born from rebellion. And that rebellion required guns.

    If the US Government said they were going to take away all of the guns that would start a mass rebellion and millions would die.

  71. 71
    Barry Arrington says:

    Bob at 65. No. If you think the statement is wrong, then say so and explain why. This should be interesting.

  72. 72
    ET says:

    If this shooter was engaged by police before he entered the school, then that is the problem. They needed to defend the children with their lives, if need be. They need to prevent him from entering the school.

  73. 73
    Fred Hickson says:

    What is being done in Israel? Stealing land?

  74. 74
    Fred Hickson says:

    ET the way politics has become so polarised, another civil War is a possibility. Remote maybe but less remote in this current climate.

  75. 75
    asauber says:

    “shooter was engaged by police before he entered the school”

    Wow. If true.

    Andrew

  76. 76
    William J Murray says:

    VL said:

    Arming more and more people is not the solution.

    Why not?
    You might be interested in reading the following before responding:
    https://davekopel.org/2A/LawRev/Shall%20Issue.pdf

    Florida’s 1987 reform law set off the modern wave of carry reform that has now been copied in many other states. Among all the states, Florida has collected the most detailed information about the impact of the carry laws. Florida also provides a good test case for the possible negative impacts of carry reform. A high-crime state with heavy urbanization, a massively overcrowded prison system, and an extremely diverse (and often tense) ethnic mix of population, Florida has all the ingredients for concealed carry disaster.

    In 1987, Florida adopted a non-discretionary concealed weapon permit law that guaranteed issuance of a concealed weapon permit to any Floridian who is 21 or older; “Does not suffer from a physical infirmity which prevents the safe handling of a weapon or firearm”; has not been convicted of a felony; has not been convicted of a drug charge in the preceding three years; has not been confined for alcohol problems in the preceding three years; has completed any of a number of firearms safety classes; and has not been committed to a mental hospital in the preceding five years. A 1993 revision allows American citizens who are not Florida residents to obtain a permit that can be used when visiting Florida.
    ”’
    From the enactment of the 1987 Florida carry reform until August 31, 1992, the Dade County permit incident tracking project provided the most detailed information available about actual incidents involving carry permit holders. The tracking program had been created as result of intense fears among some police administrators about the consequences of the carry reform law. The tracking program was abandoned in the fall of 1992, because of the rarity of incidents involving carry permit holders, and the greatly diminished concern about the issue on the part of law enforcement administrators. The fact that negative incidents involving permit holders were so rare as to not be worth counting is in itself evidence of the lack of negative effects of carry reform.

    Based on the reports of incidents known to the police, the Florida carry reform law would appear to be a net plus for public safety. The pro-safety result becomes even more lopsided if one believes that the persons who committed crimes with their licensed firearms probably would have committed the same crimes even without a license.

    Accordingly, we now look at the overall trends in Florida murder rates. Of all the states that enacted concealed carry reform, Florida shows the most dramatic change. As the graph details, Florida’s murder rate throughout the period 1975-1986 was between 118% and 157% of the murder rate elsewhere in America. After passage of Florida’s law, the murder rate began declining, rapidly, dramatically, and consistently, at a time when the rest of the U.S. was experiencing an increase in murder rates. By 1991, Floridians were less likely to be murdered than people elsewhere in America. Only in 1992 did the murder rate percentage stop falling. Even then, this is because the U.S. murder rate fell more than 10% from 1991 to 1992, while the Florida murder rate fell “only” 5%.

    It appears to me from the evidence that more people legally owning and carrying guns in public may indeed be part of the answer.

  77. 77
    Silver Asiatic says:

    BA

    Availability of guns is not the variable that changed.

    Other variables have changed and continue to change.
    Looks like VL quit the discussion rather than deal with the reality of that.

  78. 78
    ET says:

    Fred Hickson is still having issues with context. No surprise there.

  79. 79
    relatd says:

    BA at 67,

    I strongly urge you to investigate the history of mass shootings in the U.S. before making any final judgments. Assault Rifle is the correct term. As a student of military history, I have studied this subject in some depth.

    For those who don’t understand the appeal of assault rifles, or their usefulness, I can point to the various militias and survivalists in the U.S. They firmly believe that the government, or some portion of the U.S. military, will track them down and kill them as ‘dangerous elements.’ For example, the siege of the compound owned by the Branch Davidians in Axtell, Texas, near Waco. The siege on Waco involved Texas law enforcement, the ATF, FBI and U.S. military. It lasted from February 28 to April 19, 1993.

    The other appeal of assault rifles, and thousands of rounds of ammunition, is as a toy. You and your friends will find a place where they can enjoy the sounds and train. Because yes, the government is after you and your group. They are willing to accept a certain number of killed and wounded as long as they can fend off the attackers. Unfortunately, the U.S. military will use all of the resources at their disposal, including tear gas and armored vehicles, to dislodge you and your group.

  80. 80
    relatd says:

    In general, I am not against people owning firearms for protection against muggers and burglars. For defending their families from break-ins. And for other legitimate kinds of self-defense. I dislike politics but when President Obama attempted to ban certain types of weapons and ammunition, here is what happened.

    https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/sites/default/files/docs/wh_now_is_the_time_full.pdf

    And from gun store owners:

    https://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=6209255&page=1

  81. 81
    relatd says:

    Andrew at 60,

    Brandishing a gun while leaning against an expensive and flashy car, and with scantily clad girls in the background, thugs posing as musicians (yes, it is ‘only’ an act for some), disrespect women, and the jewelry hanging around their neck exposes their motivation.

  82. 82
    OldArmy94 says:

    Barry, I apologize for not addressing your points, but here are my thoughts:

    It is possible that easy access to firearms has contributed to mass killings in America. I don’t know the answer to that, but I believe we must acknowledge the possibility.

    However, what is NOT acknowledged by those opposed to private firearm ownership is the check on tyranny it provides. As horrific as mass murders by private individuals are, exponentially more horrific are the mass murders committed by governments throughout history. Looking back at the 20th century alone, there were tens (hundreds?) of millions of individuals murdered by tyrants. The Founders of our nation recognized the danger of allowing tyrants to act unfettered, and they provided a safeguard by enacting the 2nd Amendment.

    Yes, firearm availability in a free society comes with consequences. Sometimes, those consequences are awful. The freedom to move about comes with consequences–tens of thousands of Americans die in transportation related accidents annually because of that. The freedom of speech can create tension and conflict, which, again, results in death and destruction.

    However, we live in a nation where costs have been weighed and balanced; there are no utopias, and we must face the risks via a mature, rational decision-making process. I think our Founders chose the wisest course they possibly could, and it would be foolhardy and tragic to abandon those ideals.

  83. 83
    relatd says:

    I have watched the U.S. deteriorate as a civilized society. Politeness, kindness and general good behavior were the norm. There was no ‘perfect’ time but I have seen much better. A period of time where being a good citizen meant personal action, and commitment, from individuals for the good of themselves and their neighbors. I liked most of my neighbors. The few oddballs were left alone.

    That is the kind of decision each of us should make.

  84. 84
    Barry Arrington says:

    Related, by all means give us a definition of “assault rifle” that does not sweep in every semiautomatic rifle. It would be interesting if you were able to succeed when literally hundreds of bill drafters have failed.
    Also, your Waco example was ill chosen. In that case the government wound up burning to death dizens of innocent women and children when they could have arrested their target easily at any time when he left the compound, which he regularly did.
    Finally, the founders faced and defeated the mightiest army in the world in a revolution that was touched off when citizens resisted government agents confiscation of firearms at Lexington and Concord. I am glad theyhad the resolve to do so and did not give in to the counsel of despair such as that you offer.

  85. 85
    kairosfocus says:

    FH, slander. The short term solution on the table is comparable to that of Israel, target hardening through the organised militia set up as civilian marshals in coordination with the Sheriffs.And under UCMJ. As in abuse a weapon or potential weapon like a car or knife for terrorism or mass murder and face a court martial. Play willful lawfare games against the innocent and also face court martial. For that matter, the defamation law in the US needs to be drastically reformed in defencxe of innocent reputation. That you chose to twist that into falsehood is telling. You have no real solution but wish to promote further state control on any convenient incident or excuse. If you are willing to slander at this level of control, what would you support at higher levels were ability to defend freedom removed? The past 120 years is replete with sad cases in point on where that leads. KF

  86. 86
    JHolo says:

    BA: Here is my conclusion. The thing that has changed is that American schools affirmatively teach that human life is not exceptional, far less sacred.

    Canadian, Australian, New Zealand, most European and Scandinavian schools are far more secular than those in the US, and have much higher rates of atheism. And yet they do not have anywhere near the number per capita of mass shootings and school shootings that the US does.

  87. 87
    relatd says:

    BA at 84,

    We’re going to talk about defining ‘assault rifle’? For what reason? The first true assault rifle appeared during World War II. It was designed to be most effective – most lethal – at a certain range. It was very effective. It had what is called a banana clip so soldiers in the field could engage multiple targets.

    I watched the incident at Waco as it happened. Yes, certain people could have been arrested, resulting in less loss of life. I doubt the Branch Davidians had the surveillance and monitoring equipment available to the FBI and military.

    Why bring up the Founders? They fought with equal weapons against a similarly equipped enemy. And today, what language are we speaking? American? No, it’s English. Not the Queen’s English but English.

    I am offering a practical view of a situation where heavily armed survivalists cannot outmaneuver any force sent against them by using firepower alone. Their will to fight for what they see as a good cause means they won’t see it coming. A lot of technology has been developed between 1776 and today.

  88. 88
    kairosfocus says:

    BA, there is a 78 year old well known proper definition tracing to the STG 44, 1944 — Sturm Gewehr. A rifle with select fire including full automatic, firing an intermediate cartridge to get 300 m of effective, aimed fire range. the intermediate cartridges allow ready control of the weapon while firing on automatic — they tend to ride up — and with high capacity to support automatic fire during infantry assaults. A typical context is that one element establishes a fire base which by dominating the enemy pins them down while a maneuver element goes to a flank to take out the position. The current AR 15 — Armalite Rifle, which has neither a burst mode nor full auto mode, is not an assault rifle [it is marginal for reasonable sized game but is popular given low recoil and 50 years of refinement of an originally flawed design], and there is no coherent and sensible definition of the made up agit prop and lawfare term “assault weapon.” Currently, they are trying to get a more powerful round while managing recoil to bridge to 800 m typical, and with good soldiers 1200 m would be feasible. The Russian AK47 — Automat Kalashnikov — and derivatives are far closer to the original STG 44, but are designed for much the same purpose. So called “high power” rifles, fire rounds that are designed to reach 800m, but their recoil is such that they are not good for full auto mode, as the US learned with the M14 fiasco. they should have standardised on the .280 British and the EM2 or FAL. The EM2 was a bullpup, wich offers compactness while having a full length barrel. They insisted on the 7.62 x 51 mm and learned a hard lesson. KF

    PS, the slander agit prop and lawfare games we see are red flags that we are dealing with the fundamentally lawless.

    PPS, The old SMLE, c 1907 fired a much more powerful round, the .303 Mark VII

  89. 89
    relatd says:

    A side note. This sort of thing usually attracts agitators who will use this incident to support things other than practical solutions. A 9mm semi-automatic pistol could have been used with the same effect. No one needs an AK-47.

  90. 90
    kairosfocus says:

    PPPS, I think we need to ponder Plato’s ship of state.

  91. 91
    JVL says:

    What is different about the US when it comes to mass shootings?

    The US does have a high rate of legal gun ownership but, as was pointed out, many of those gun owners never brandish their weapon in anger thankfully. Many are responsible firearms owners who make sure their weapons are securely locked away when they’re not hunting or target shooting.

    The US is far from the only country where some of its residents feel threatened or at risk. Maybe some countries (like Afghanistan, Iraq, Yemen, etc) are not accurately represented in the statistics but certainly amongst the top-tier, first-world countries the US death rate due to gun fire is chart topping. I heard today, but I have not verified, that the leading cause of death in the US for primary school children in 2019 was gunfire. IF that is true that is sickening. IF that is true.

    The US is not the only country which, relatively recently, has a strong memory of something like the ‘wild west’ where the gun was the law. But, again, amongst the first-world countries perhaps it is much younger. (Caveat here, Italy and Germany and some other European countries are fairly ‘young’ in their current incarnations but effectively have existed as cultural entities for many centuries.)

    What is it about America that means this keeps happening again and again and again? Every year. Understanding the ’cause’ or underlying effects would help solve the problem. I’d hate for schools to become armed fortresses. I’d hate the US to revert to Deadwood.

    So, what’s the solution? Something that everyone can agree on is good. A multi-prong approach would be good.

    But no one wants it to go on. But it does.

  92. 92
    relatd says:

    JVL,

    What was the point of all that? You’ve offered nothing.

  93. 93
    JVL says:

    Relatd: What was the point of all that? You’ve offered nothing.

    I don’t know what the answer is. I don’t live in the US anymore; I’m not going to move back. It’s up to the people in the US to solve the problem.

    But, from an outside of the US perspective: there’s a problem you should be able to solve. The rest of the top-tier countries don’t have this problem.

  94. 94
    chuckdarwin says:

    BA/62

    [A]s if guns were not widely available for centuries before mass shootings at schools became a thing. Get a clue Chuck. Availability of guns is not the variable that changed. Focusing on the variable that did not change to explain the change is stupid. Try again.

    Actually, the availability of guns–and more importantly, firepower and effectiveness–has changed dramatically “over the centuries” as you put it. Firearms have been around circa 1400 AD. Automatic effective field weapons (gat’s, sten’s, BAR’s, etc.) have only been around since just prior to WW I and high-capacity civilian firearms for only a few years, post-Vietnam. There is a significant difference between a matchlock muzzle loader and an M16 (AR) with a 30-round clip. You actually have to be an excellent marksman to hit something with a muzzle loader. Any clown can pull the trigger of an AR or a Glock, and, sadly, just about any clown can get his hands on one these days.

  95. 95
    Bob O'H says:

    Barry @ 71 – is that a “no”? Are you not going to defend your statement?

  96. 96
    relatd says:

    JVL at 93,

    You’ve offered no clue about the ‘top-tier’ countries and why things are different there. Should I take out a calculator to solve this problem? President Obama was motivated to solve this problem. The end result was persons unknown buying as much ‘about to be banned’ weapons and ammo as they could, to the point where even gun shows and private dealers ran out of both. Why does anyone need an AK-47 and 10,000 rounds of ammunition?

    All rifles need regular maintenance.

  97. 97
    Lieutenant Commander Data says:

    Viola Lee
    I’m leaving. Your guys ideology is unconscionable. It’s one thing to play fun-and-games about philosophical issues and another to heartlessly blame schools and teachers for what is in fact a totally unjustified love affair with guns and … I can’t even begin to think about how wrong you are all to be making ideological hay out of such a tragedy.

    You said morality is subjective . Do the math.

  98. 98
    JVL says:

    Relatd:You’ve offered no clue about the ‘top-tier’ countries and why things are different there. Should I take out a calculator to solve this problem?

    That’s right, I haven’t. It’s up to the people with the problem to solve the problem. It’s not up to someone from the outside to dictate what they should do. I thought you would appreciate that. I was just pointing out the different perspectives and situations. You guys do what you can do. It’s not my call.

    Why does anyone need an AK-47 and 10,000 rounds of ammunition?

    I agree but I’m not part of the problem or part of the possible solution. It’s up to the people of the US to find a way to deal with the situation. If they choose to change their stance.

  99. 99
    relatd says:

    JVL,

    “change their stance”? About what? The right to bear arms? A massive sweep for illegal weapons?

    Even though you no longer live in the U.S., the ‘it’s not my problem’ approach is not helpful.

    So, to all reading – no practical ideas? If you don’t trust the government to stop or reduce the occurrence of this sort of thing, then what are the practical steps?

  100. 100
    asauber says:

    Maybe JVL can point us to some elegant math that solves violence.

    Andrew

  101. 101
    asauber says:

    Really?

    “He was engaged by an Uvalde ISD police officer who works here at the school,” Estrada told CNN. “And then after that, he was engaged by two other officers from the Uvalde Police Department.”

    The officers did not pursue the suspect into the school.

    “At that point as he made entry he began shooting children, teachers, anybody that was in his way he was shooting people that were in front of him,” Texas Department of Public Safety Lt. Chris Olivares told KPRC.”

    https://www.crimeonline.com/2022/05/25/police-engaged-shooter-outside-elementary-school-before-he-killed-19-students-inside-state-police/

    Andrew

  102. 102
    kairosfocus says:

    Folks, if it weren’t so sad (and likely a harbinger), it would be amusing. The US is a state where, 50 years ago, a panel of the most highly qualified and vetted Government officials established under colour of rights the slaughter of 63 million of your living posterity in the womb and every attempt to stop the slaughter has been attacked ruthlessly. If that does not wake you up to how dangerous, reckless and ruthless the Government and establishment are, nothing will. We are now in a day where the frontiers are closed, there is nowhere to go to get away from the out of control state. Under those circumstances it is a very reasonable stance for people to take steps under what freedoms they have left to defend themselves. And 10,000 rounds is about two years of practice or a month or so of fighting in a situation where if the balloon goes up, restocking is going to be a problem for years on end. So, it may be an ugly picture but the situation is far uglier. Well do I remember coming around an aisle in a supermarket with wife and child, only to see a police man IIRC in flack coat and with an M16 [I think full auto] in his supermarket trolley coming the other way. That is where that society was, and 20 years before the police, armed with police 38 revolvers and 303 WW1 vintage rifles were suddenly outgunned; it was C19 meet C20. I recall studying one night at that earlier time to hear pi pi, tatatatatat. Then tat tat. (More like pop.) A police officer had been ambushed in a rum shop. He got off two rounds with his service revolver before being cut down with ten rounds per second M16 fire. You do not want to go there. KF

  103. 103
    JHolo says:

    Some food for thought from https://www.sandyhookpromise.org/blog/gun-violence/16-facts-about-gun-violence-and-school-shootings/

    Each day 12 children die from gun violence in America. Another 32 are shot and injured.1

    Guns are the leading cause of death among American children and teens. 1 out of 10 gun deaths are age 19 or younger.2

    The U.S. has had 2,032 school shootings since 1970 and these numbers are increasing. Alarmingly, 948 school shootings have taken place since the tragedy at Sandy Hook Elementary School in December 2012.

    In 4 out of 5 school shootings, at least one other person had knowledge of the attacker’s plan but failed to report it.

    About 1 out of 5 gay and lesbian youth have been threatened or injured with a weapon on school property.

    The majority of individuals with diagnosed mental illness do not engage in violence against others.

  104. 104
    JHolo says:

    LCD: You said morality is subjective . Do the math.

    And how has that objective mirality been working out?

  105. 105
    kairosfocus says:

    AS, more details:

    Officers from multiple agencies responded to the school, among them both on- and off-duty Border Patrol agents. It was one of those agents, the Associated Press reported, who rushed into the school, found the shooter barricaded in a classroom, and fatally shot him. The agent was wounded in the gunfire and has since been released from the hospital.

    The AP also said that investigators told CNN all the fatalities were in the same 4th grade classroom.

    KF

  106. 106
    dogdoc says:

    Barry is clearly right that we are well past a point of no return regarding gun ownership. At this point, any attempt to disarm the populace will not only fail, it will result in increasing the proportion of bad actors among gun owners. That doesn’t mean that the prevalence of firearms in the U.S. isn’t an obvious reason for our disproportionate gun violence, it just means we can’t solve the problem by taking away guns.

    Some claim that “mental illness” in the U.S. is primarily responsible, but I’m not aware of any studies revealing the frequency of mental illness here is greater than in other countries. Others claim that turning away from religion, or embracing evolutionary theory, plays a crucial role in increasing gun violence, but that just doesn’t comport with evidence from other countries who are experiencing increasing secularization without a commensurate upswing in gun violence.

    I agree with those who have focused on our attitude toward guns. Hollywood movies, video games, and music videos all glamorize gun violence. People fetishize guns, especially those that are similar to military weapons designed to kill people efficiently. There are gun-oriented websites and magazines with women in bikinis posing with deadly weapons, which is bizarre. Recently, our elected politicians even sent out holiday cards with all of the family members holding these weapons!

    Rather than focus on how much fun it is to own and use these weapons, and glamorize them in our entertainment, we should be thinking about how to change our relationship to them. It should not be cool or socially acceptable to “love guns”.

  107. 107
    relatd says:

    KF at 102,

    So it’s the government’s fault? That’s it? And what we in the U.S. have to look forward to is more of the same?

    Not helpful – at all.

    Why bring up abortion? Jane Roe was Norma McCorvey in Roe v. Wade. She never got an abortion. So what was she doing there? She became actively pro-life.

  108. 108
    relatd says:

    Dogdoc at 106,

    Where is your research? Where is your evidence that anyone ‘loves guns’? Do you know why most people own guns? Research, not speculation please.

    https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/09/13/key-facts-about-americans-and-guns/

  109. 109
    asauber says:

    “Why bring up abortion?”

    Relatd,

    It needs to be brought up until it is abolished. It’s the leading indicator that we are living in a Culture of Death. Human life has been devalued. We need to restore a Culture of Life.

    Andrew

  110. 110
    kairosfocus says:

    JH, start with this, EVERY WEEK SINCE 1973, with solemn order of the US Government, 25,000 — half a Vietnam war worth — of the US’ living posterity in the womb has been killed under colour of law, celebrated as rights and choice by the establishment and major media. The fundamental corrosion of values through that mass blood guilt under aegis of the US govt must be reckoned with in seeking any responsible solution. The absence of THIS statistic exposes all others as tainted by the crooked yardstick of a decadent culture of death, one that cumulatively is five times the overall Nazi holocaust in numbers of victims. This is at the heart of the sickness. Fix that and the reforms so to do will fix anyt other problems, fail to fix it and you tell the heartland people that the ruthless want them set up as sheep to be shorn or slaughtered at will. In short, the guns are a sign of fatal disaffection by a people willing and equipped to fight for themselves. Many other bad consequences stem from it but how does one deal with a government already responsible for 63 million innocent souls? KF

  111. 111
    relatd says:

    Andrew at 109,

    Yes but how will that stop gun violence? Most people in the U.S. who kill each other know each other. Most people who use guns are not using them in mass shootings.

  112. 112
    JHolo says:

    Andrew: It needs to be brought up until it is abolished. It’s the leading indicator that we are living in a Culture of Death. Human life has been devalued. We need to restore a Culture of Life.

    Canada has no restriction on abortion, and they don’t have the level of gun violence that the US does.

  113. 113
    asauber says:

    Relatd,

    Well, Big Picture-wise, if the shooter was taught to respect life and not hate it, the incident doesn’t happen.

    Andrew

  114. 114
    JVL says:

    Relatd: Even though you no longer live in the U.S., the ‘it’s not my problem’ approach is not helpful.

    I’m not going to preach to people about what they should and shouldn’t do. They need to find the solution that works for them. The people with the problem should decide, not those who are not part of that system. Why are you so antagonistic?

  115. 115
    asauber says:

    “Canada has no restriction on abortion, and they don’t have the level of gun violence that the US does.”

    Still has the dead babies, though.

    Andrew

  116. 116
    JVL says:

    Asuaber: Maybe JVL can point us to some elegant math that solves violence.

    Those with the problem need to find the solution that works for them. No one outside of the situation should be telling them what to do.

    What’s wrong with that?

  117. 117
    kairosfocus says:

    FH, your talking point on Israel is immediately self discrediting. KF

  118. 118
    relatd says:

    KF at 110,

    Do you know the whole story about how abortion was legalized in the U.S.?

    1960 – The FDA approves the birth control pill. Most women do not want or need it. It is available by prescription only.

    1967 – The April 7, 1967 issue of Time magazine has a cover story about The Pill. The article headline is “Contraception: Freedom from Fear.” Fear of what? Babies. That gift from God, that bundle of joy. That was a lie.

    1968 – The National Association for the Repeal of Abortion Laws, later, the National Abortion Rights Action League, took action. They pushed for legal abortion and lied to the American public and the media.

    https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/resource/55401/an-ex-abortionist-speaks

  119. 119
    asauber says:

    As more details come to light, did the shooter enter the school through an unlocked door?

    Andrew

  120. 120
    kairosfocus says:

    JVL, did people say that about Nazi Germany’s death camps or the Gulag? KF

  121. 121
    relatd says:

    KF at 120,

    Reaching. You are reaching. What needs to de done now – today?

  122. 122
    kairosfocus says:

    Relatd, no I am highlighting the crookedness of the yardsticks of the governance classes. Absent a thorough reformation, disaster predictably lies ahead. And we are seeing ship of state games, the very thing Luke critiques by microcosm counter example in Ac 27. KF

    PS, you don’t want to hear my geostrategic analysis.

    PPS, did you read what I gave above, at 30, which was endorsed by the man who is just about the leading expert on the real deal at Columbine.

  123. 123
    relatd says:

    KF at 122,

    I have studied military and paramilitary operations. Aside from new technology, nothing about human beings has changed. Disaster has been around since the start of this country. Those actually in charge are making too much money in the U.S. to let it go downhill. They have no alternative.

  124. 124
    kairosfocus says:

    Relatd, did you study the history of Athens surrounding the Peloponnesian war? KF

  125. 125
    JVL says:

    Kairosfocus: did people say that about Nazi Germany’s death camps or the Gulag?

    The analogy is not sound. The US is still a nation of laws. I have no say in how they deal with their problems. It’s up to them to solve their problems.

    I get vilified if I say how I think the US should deal with guns. I get vilified if I don’t say how I think the US should deal with guns. Maybe the US citizens should figure out how to deal with guns without the interference of people outside of the US. It is their call.

  126. 126
    relatd says:

    KF at 124,

    The Peloponnesian War? Seriously? Most people do not know much history, so I doubt that they could relate. Maybe if one side had machine-guns… Oh wait.

    Stick to the present day please.

  127. 127
    kairosfocus says:

    JVL, given the action under colour of law in question and the result, that is seriously to be doubted. KF

  128. 128
    kairosfocus says:

    Relatd, your reaction tells me you haven’t. KF

    PS, I linked earlier but obviously the key insight of Plato driven by that context has not registered. Pardon a chunk of text, therefore:

    It is not too hard to figure out that our civilisation is in deep trouble and is most likely headed for shipwreck. (And of course, that sort of concern is dismissed as “apocalyptic,” or neurotic pessimism that refuses to pause and smell the roses.)

    Plato’s Socrates spoke to this sort of situation, long since, in the ship of state parable in The Republic, Bk VI:

    >>[Soc.] I perceive, I said, that you are vastly amused at having plunged me into such a hopeless discussion; but now hear the parable, and then you will be still more amused at the meagreness of my imagination: for the manner in which the best men are treated in their own States is so grievous that no single thing on earth is comparable to it; and therefore, if I am to plead their cause, I must have recourse to fiction, and put together a figure made up of many things, like the fabulous unions of goats and stags which are found in pictures.

    Imagine then a fleet or a ship in which there is a captain [–> often interpreted, ship’s owner] who is taller and stronger than any of the crew, but he is a little deaf and has a similar infirmity in sight, and his knowledge of navigation is not much better. [= The people own the community and in the mass are overwhelmingly strong, but are ill equipped on the whole to guide, guard and lead it]

    The sailors are quarrelling with one another about the steering – every one is of opinion that he has a right to steer [= selfish ambition to rule and dominate], though he has never learned the art of navigation and cannot tell who taught him or when he learned, and will further assert that it cannot be taught, and they are ready to cut in pieces any one who says the contrary. They throng about the captain, begging and praying him to commit the helm to them [–> kubernetes, steersman, from which both cybernetics and government come in English]; and if at any time they do not prevail, but others are preferred to them, they kill the others or throw them overboard [ = ruthless contest for domination of the community], and having first chained up the noble captain’s senses with drink or some narcotic drug [ = manipulation and befuddlement, cf. the parable of the cave], they mutiny and take possession of the ship and make free with the stores; thus, eating and drinking, they proceed on their voyage in such a manner as might be expected of them [–> Cf here Luke’s subtle case study in Ac 27].

    Him who is their partisan and cleverly aids them in their plot for getting the ship out of the captain’s hands into their own whether by force or persuasion [–> Nihilistic will to power on the premise of might and manipulation making ‘right’ ‘truth’ ‘justice’ ‘rights’ etc], they compliment with the name of sailor, pilot, able seaman, and abuse the other sort of man, whom they call a good-for-nothing; but that the true pilot must pay attention to the year and seasons and sky and stars and winds, and whatever else belongs to his art, if he intends to be really qualified for the command of a ship, and that he must and will be the steerer, whether other people like or not-the possibility of this union of authority with the steerer’s art has never seriously entered into their thoughts or been made part of their calling.

    Now in vessels which are in a state of mutiny and by sailors who are mutineers, how will the true pilot be regarded? Will he not be called by them a prater, a star-gazer, a good-for-nothing?

    [Ad.] Of course, said Adeimantus.

    [Soc.] Then you will hardly need, I said, to hear the interpretation of the figure, which describes the true philosopher in his relation to the State [ –> here we see Plato’s philosopher-king emerging]; for you understand already.

    [Ad.] Certainly.

    [Soc.] Then suppose you now take this parable to the gentleman who is surprised at finding that philosophers have no honour in their cities; explain it to him and try to convince him that their having honour would be far more extraordinary.

    [Ad.] I will.

    [Soc.] Say to him, that, in deeming the best votaries of philosophy to be useless to the rest of the world, he is right; but also tell him to attribute their uselessness to the fault of those who will not use them, and not to themselves. The pilot should not humbly beg the sailors to be commanded by him –that is not the order of nature; neither are ‘the wise to go to the doors of the rich’ –the ingenious author of this saying told a lie –but the truth is, that, when a man is ill, whether he be rich or poor, to the physician he must go, and he who wants to be governed, to him who is able to govern. [–> the issue of competence and character as qualifications to rule] The ruler who is good for anything ought not to beg his subjects to be ruled by him [ –> down this road lies the modern solution: a sound, well informed people will seek sound leaders, who will not need to manipulate or bribe or worse, and such a ruler will in turn be checked by the soundness of the people, cf. US DoI, 1776]; although the present governors of mankind are of a different stamp; they may be justly compared to the mutinous sailors, and the true helmsmen to those who are called by them good-for-nothings and star-gazers.

    [Ad.] Precisely so, he said.

    [Soc] For these reasons, and among men like these, philosophy, the noblest pursuit of all, is not likely to be much esteemed by those of the opposite faction [–> the sophists, the Demagogues, Alcibiades and co, etc]; not that the greatest and most lasting injury is done to her by her opponents, but by her own professing followers, the same of whom you suppose the accuser to say, that the greater number of them are arrant rogues, and the best are useless; in which opinion I agreed [–> even among the students of the sound state (here, political philosophy and likely history etc.), many are of unsound motivation and intent, so mere education is not enough, character transformation is critical].

    [Ad.] Yes.

    [Soc.] And the reason why the good are useless has now been explained?

    [Ad.] True.

    [Soc.] Then shall we proceed to show that the corruption of the majority is also unavoidable [–> implies a need for a corruption-restraining minority providing proverbial salt and light, cf. Ac 27, as well as justifying a governing structure turning on separation of powers, checks and balances], and that this is not to be laid to the charge of philosophy any more than the other?

    [Ad.] By all means.

    [Soc.] And let us ask and answer in turn, first going back to the description of the gentle and noble nature.[ — > note the character issue] Truth, as you will remember, was his leader, whom he followed always and in all things [ –> The spirit of truth as a marker]; failing in this, he was an impostor, and had no part or lot in true philosophy [–> the spirit of truth is a marker, for good or ill] . . . >>

    (There is more than an echo of this in Acts 27, a real world case study. [Luke, a physician, was an educated Greek with a taste for subtle references.] This blog post, on soundness in policy, will also help)

  129. 129
    ET says:

    I am still wondering how he gained access to the school with armed guards there. Don’t they lock the doors?

  130. 130
    relatd says:

    KF at 128,

    Corruption in government. Corruption in the media. Man wants to live a life that includes things that are bad for him. It was always thus. But today, the degree of corruption in institutions is greater.

    A wise and educated citizenry is a bulwark against electing anyone not fit for the duties of office. But as the tentacles of corruption reach into schools for children and young adults, they are being taught to hate the U.S. They are being manipulated. So parents home school and those in colleges can fend for themselves but only if they have been taught good and true things and have the wisdom to separate truth from lies in their education.

    Believe it or not, most people want and will accept the truth, that is, what can be shown to be true. But those actually in charge need to keep manipulation going. It never lasts once it reaches a certain point. Soon the people who can stand it no more, will stand up against the falsehoods being spread among them and reject those falsehoods.

    Getting back to the topic, do some research.

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34102649/

    It’s not like the FBI, for example, has ignored this.

    https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/stats-services-publications-school-shooter-school-shooter

  131. 131
    asauber says:

    “Don’t they lock the doors?”

    ET,

    I think the doors are supposed to be locked. But in the info released, this detail about entering the building is missing.

    Andrew

  132. 132
    JVL says:

    Kairosfocus: given the action under colour of law in question and the result, that is seriously to be doubted.

    What action ‘under colour of law’? What is to be doubted?

    I don’t understand you at all. The US is a sovereign nation which has given no reason for its autonomy to be challenged. i’m not sure you’re really paying attention. Perhaps you could make an attempt to be more clear in your replies instead of going for pithy and succinct and confusing.

  133. 133
    ET says:

    Andrew- The reports say that police engaged him before he entered the building. I also read they had independent armed guards. So, I must be missing something. Armed guards at the school should have heard the gun fire and then responded to keep the gunman outside.

  134. 134
    kairosfocus says:

    ET, looks like he shot his way in. KF

  135. 135
    kairosfocus says:

    JVL, not every decree done in the name of law using institutions, offices, ceremonies etc is properly lawful. In January 1973 the US Supreme Court used its status to decree a ruling that lacked Constitutional much less built in law of our nature foundation, and which imposed an average toll of 25,000 of living posterity in the womb killed per week. This, through the government and ruthless power has been repeatedly used to block or slow down to near standstill any correction. The unprecedented leak and threats game has been typical. That sort of betrayal of the prime duty of government comes at a cost and you are looking at on one hand erosion of respect for life as was warned of. On the other, you see increasing disaffection which is a driver of the purchases of weapons not just for personal protection but as an insurance and as a message to the powers. In that toxic climate, what is going on just now is further feeding the situation. And with that kind of usurpation and blood toll people are right to seriously doubt the government. I suspect, time for reformation is running out and the current leak fiasco may turn really, really ugly. Of course all of this is further feeding the hopes of the geostrategic vultures. KF

  136. 136
    ET says:

    Needing bullet-proof doors, then. If trained armed guards and trained police couldn’t stop him, that needs to be looked into. I heard the shooter may have had body amour. Unless it was head-to-toe there is plenty of target left. And a body shot would at least knock him down.

    And it looks like the internal security needs to be beefed up. Can’t allow bad guys access to the classrooms if they manage to get inside the building.

  137. 137
    JHolo says:

    Andrew: KF: Still has the dead babies, though.

    And so does the US. But Canada doesn’t have the dead shoppers, or concert goers, or elementary school students, or..,

    You really have to pay attention. KF’s nonsense about abortion has nothing to do with mass shootings.

  138. 138
    kairosfocus says:

    ET, he only had the harness there were no inserts but the defenders could not be sure and headshots under stress are hard. He broke through, got to one class which he shot up and then someone came in. It should have been two but I guess there was no time. The border patrol agent took a wound but got his man. A sad day. KF

  139. 139
    kairosfocus says:

    JH, the US, from history and given demographics with regional variations is very different from Canada. What you miss is that Canada, Britain and Europe are able to benefit from the US. The situation of Canada as pointed out is quite different and with the situation exemplified by 1973, the degree of disaffection is higher than it seems to you. We had better hope things don’t come apart in the US as that will destabilise the global geostrategic situation. Watch Ukraine, Iran and Taiwan. KF

    PS, as you so cleverly skipped over in the OP, Israel did. And it showed that target hardening works,

  140. 140
    relatd says:

    JH at 137,

    You don’t see the connection with abortion? The devaluing of human life? The turning of abortion into a woman only issue disconnects the very necessary man from the equation. She didn’t get pregnant by herself. And fathers. There are a lot of young men in prison who had no father in their lives. Think about that.

  141. 141
    kairosfocus says:

    PPS, have you forgotten what happened in London, Paris, India, Kenya, Sri Lanka etc?

  142. 142
    relatd says:

    KF at 135,

    We’re all going to hell in a handbasket. Soon there will be rioting and shootings followed by more rioting and shootings. And the international vultures are doing bad things…

    We’ve got nothing helpful here. Nothing.

    And all those who died through abortion? Should Roe v. Wade be overturned, a few states have already announced that they will not enforce the change in law. This will lead to lawsuits to follow the change in law. I don’t think those who are watching this are not preparing for trouble. They are.

  143. 143
    JHolo says:

    KF: What you miss is that Canada, Britain and Europe are able to benefit from the US.

    Yes, they benefit from the errors the US makes. Too bad that the US doesn’t.

  144. 144
    JHolo says:

    Relatd: You don’t see the connection with abortion?

    No. Other countries have far less restrictive abortion laws, and don’t have the mass shootings that the US does. And, ironically, most also have lower abortion rates. I don’t see the link.

  145. 145
    JHolo says:

    The gunman who killed 19 students and two teachers Tuesday in an elementary school in Uvalde, Texas, wasn’t known to law enforcement ahead of time and had no documented mental-health issues and no known arrests, state officials said Wednesday.

    He was able to legally buy an assault weapon, but couldn’t legally buy a beer. Am I the only one who sees a problem with that.

  146. 146
    ET says:

    Shoot the vest anyway.

    And yes, JHolo, the Texas gun laws are a joke. With their gun laws they need to make schools close to impenetrable.

  147. 147
  148. 148
    TimR says:

    What is wrong with American culture, where it is believed necessary for schools to be fortresses and have armed guards? Why are Americans constantly massacring each other? What is different about America compared to all the other western democracies that has led to this state of affairs?

  149. 149
    JHolo says:

    TimR: What is different about America compared to all the other western democracies that has led to this state of affairs?

    NRA, misinterpretation of the 2nd amendment, and right-wing gun nuts.

  150. 150
    Seversky says:

    Defend The Children

    A good idea. Unfortunately, the lack of any effective action following previous mass shootings suggest that what is actually being defended is the gun culture and the firearms industry which supplies it.

    1. There are hundreds of millions of guns in the US.

    And who’s fault is that?

    2. Even assuming for the sake of argument that it would be a desirable thing to do, no gun control law can eliminate all or even a small fraction of those guns.

    No one thinks there is a “silver bullet” solution to this issue but it should be possible to craft legislation that would gradually whittle down the number of guns in circulation over time. Isn’t it worth a try?

    3. Evil men will always be able to get a gun.

    That’s no reason not to try and make it more difficult for them.

    4. Schools are soft targets full of defenseless people.

    There was no reason for them to be anything else until these shootings started.

    5. We can’t hire enough cops to guard all of those people.

    Probably not and even the presence of armed officers has not always been as effective as one might have hoped.

    6. We need to equip and train school staff who are willing to do so to defend themselves and the children in their care.

    School staff signed up to be teachers not police or soldiers but I’m sure you could find some who would be prepared to take up arms to defend the children in their care. Of course, they would have to be adequately armed. If they only have access to a 9mm semiautomatic pistol they are going to find themselves seriously outgunned by a shooter armed with an AR15. You would need to provide them both with an AR15 or AK47 and with the extensive training they would need to use them effectively.

    7. Don’t tell me it can’t be done. It is being done in Israel.

    Nobody is saying it can’t be done but Israel is in a semi-permanent state of low-intensity war with its neighbors. We are lamenting the fact that it should be necessary in one of the world’s wealthiest and most powerful countries to turn schools into fortified, armed compounds.

  151. 151
    ET says:

    Look, it’s just a very, very, very, small % of people who do this crap. And people intent on doing harm will find a way.

    It’s so pathetic to hand down an indictment of the USA when it is just a few out of 350,000,000. And it’s always the pro-abortion clowns being the hypocrites.

  152. 152
    ET says:

    I’ll take a 9mm in a classroom setting. A rifle indoors isn’t ideal unless you are shooting down a long hallway.

  153. 153
    TimR says:

    ET: “people intent on doing harm will find a way” is the same argument as Barry’s no. 3 quoted by Seversky above. But I guess the question is – why are there so many people intent on doing harm in the US? What in the culture is it that leads to multiple gun massacres? We have bad men in all countries. But the US is unique in their propensity to live out their fantasies.

  154. 154
    ET says:

    So many? Get a grip. And stop quote-mining me. Also, guns aren’t required to wreak havoc. And what evil people do in other countries isn’t always reported. What planet are you on?

  155. 155
  156. 156
    kairosfocus says:

    TimR and others, kindly note what has happened in Israel. likewise, recall the recent Christmas Market vehicular mowing down, and also the fact that indeed at Columbine there was an intent to blow up a bomb as finale. There are some deeply wrong things that have happened and are happening that have led to nihilism at the fringe. In this case, we have a just turned 18 year old who blew up over being chided for poor academic performance. In the shadows, he first shot his grandmother (she was serious but will survive). He took out what is inside him by going to a school full of children, a soft target, to shoot it up. Whatever demons were riding him, recall, he drove there in a pickup. That could just as easily have been used to mow people down in a crowd. If he had been inclined, it is not hard to make an effective bomb, turning the vehicle into a kamikaze weapon. We are not told enough details but one guess is, he may have been on psychoactive drugs, officially and/or unofficially. Similarly, it does not get reported like this but in many inner cities there are many “gang” mass shootings, Chicago is a commonly cited case. Then there is the phrase, going postal. Do not overlook, attacks with machetes or the like, including school attacks, I recall one being in China. I add as context that for 49 years on average, every week in the US 25,000 of our living posterity in the womb have been killed, under decrees under colour of law, rights and choice; the weekly global toll is a million. The point is, there is a demonically nihilistic plague of attacking others on the loose and after target hardening, that has to be addressed. We live in a dark age, and we need to ask some questions about it. KF

  157. 157
    kairosfocus says:

    Vivid, it does seem he shot his way in, we need to ask why the officers he engaged on breaking in did not work as a team to take him out. I suspect the tactical vest was a part of the problem, they may have thought they did not have weapons able to deal with armour. It would be interesting to learn what the radio controllers on the officers told them. Notice, too, rapid convergence of officers from multiple agencies, that means there was widespread radio communication, perhaps including cell phones. I also note the standard is for a break in should be at least two officers, it was a single border patrol officer who went in and took a hit taking the shooter out. Compare the recent shooting incidents in churches. KF

  158. 158
    TimR says:

    Kairosfocus: yes, but I would hope the US doesn’t compare itself to Israel. Or, for that matter China. And yes, of course we can point to horrific acts in other countries (here in NZ we had the Christchurch massacre a year or two ago).
    But the US is unique in the regularity of these events. We all have knives and machetes etc in other countries. But we are not routinely mowing down our citizens with them or with anything else. In the rest of the world we just stare in incomprehension every time it happens and every time nothing is done. We can’t understand, one why it happens, and two why nothing is done about it.
    There is something different in the culture in the US that is leading to these events occurring time and time again.
    JHolo suggested some reasons. Do you have any ideas?

  159. 159
    kairosfocus says:

    CD, a rifle makes a more dangerous wound than a typical handgun round; including intermediate rounds such as the .223. So would a shotgun slug. That is not news. The rifle is also far more cumbersome and that is why it is not a typical weapon except under special circumstances. Where, too, modern ballistic protection is such that pistol rounds will struggle to cope, even in a defensive situation, as we can possibly see with the shooting the way in phase, the officers likely thought they had to try a far more difficult target in a high stress situation. And sixty miles away is a border, across which for many years many fully automatic weapons have been in use in a civil war like situation, where the border is inadequately secured. KF

  160. 160
    kairosfocus says:

    TimR, but the comparison is obviously relevant, for whatever reasons that may differ there is a pattern of soft target attacks reflecting nihilism. Twenty one years ago in the US the worst such attack killed 3,000. As I just noted, just across the nearby border, full auto weapons are in play. KF

    PS, actually, you are wrong about other countries. There are any number of places where a lot of violence happens, sometimes the typical weekly toll would shock you. On machetes etc the worst case is of course Rwanda in 1994. Again, the pattern is rise of nihilism and societal breakdown into lawless conduct. The longer term answers will lie down that road.

  161. 161
    TimR says:

    Israel is surrounded by hostile countries, some of which it has been at war with in the recent past. There is sharp ethnic division at its centre, which has resulted in active terrorist organisations operating within it and in neighbouring countries, and in the need for it to maintain military service.
    It is a deeply religious country, and there you do have a point of comparison with the US (in contrast with the rest of the western liberal democracies).

  162. 162
  163. 163
    kairosfocus says:

    TimR, actually, many of those are points of comparison. I believe, however Israel is actually on the whole largely secular though with a strong religious minority among the Jewish population. Those factors do not change the fact that a major persistent soft target threat has been effectively managed through target hardening, border control etc. I suspect the US still imagines itself in a business as usual peaceful situation; maybe that needs revision. KF

  164. 164
    Fred Hickson says:

    Law enforcement have some explaining to do over who locked the classroom door.

  165. 165
    Fred Hickson says:

    If he had been inclined, it is not hard to make an effective bomb, turning the vehicle into a kamikaze weapon.

    I initially laughed hollowly at this non sequitur. Then I recalled Timothy McVey and two tons of ammonium nitrate. I don’t know but I would hope there are systems in place that restrict unusual purchases of this fertiliser.

    Edit: https://www.cisa.gov/ammonium-nitrate-security-program

  166. 166
    JVL says:

    America’s gun culture – in seven charts

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41488081

  167. 167
    Lieutenant Commander Data says:

    🙂 Darwin’s lackeys on the one side say that life is meaningless and on the other side they play virtue signalling game . You can’t have it both ways. Life is meaningless or is not . If you choose that is meaningless then everything that happens has no meaning .Somehow darwinists “discover” the meaning and morality when something happens and become more religious than any theist 😆 because they can’t let a virtue signalling opportunity pass without “profit”(showing off their hypocrisy).

  168. 168
    jerry says:

    It’s interesting how the divide is.

    What people fail to discuss is the obvious? Almost 400 million guns and so little violence. There is definitely too much violence in the US but it’s not concentrated where the guns are. It is not the overwhelming majority of the gun owners who are the problem. They are a major plus.

    About 4 billion people if given the chance would come to violent America which is part of the problem. Why do they want to come? Why are they the problem?

    And a lot are actually trying. To compare Canada, New Zealand or other western democracies and their completely different ethnic make up is absurd. None of these western countries would last 6 months if the US disappeared. And they know it.

    How many people are immigrating to China, Russia, India, Indonesia, Africa or Latin America?

    By the way several NATO countries in Europe are actively trading with Russia despite the war. I mention this to show how desperate people become when their lives/modern life styles are at stake.

    Aside: it was a fourth grade that was attacked. But it was his high school that rejected the shooter.

    Aside2: this has nothing to do with guns causing harm or children dying. Look at the divide on this. That should tell you everything.

  169. 169
    asauber says:

    Security Failure

    “The teenage madman who slaughtered 19 kids and two teachers in a Texas school spent more than 40 minutes inside as witnesses desperately urged police to charge into the building, it was ­revealed Wednesday.

    Salvador Ramos barricaded himself inside the classroom before opening fire on students and teachers inside. Border Patrol agents finally breached the door about 40 minutes to an hour later when a staff member gave them a key.”

    https://nypost.com/2022/05/25/police-waited-to-enter-texas-school-as-shooter-went-on-killing-spree/

    Andrew

  170. 170
    ET says:

    Look, it’s just a very, very, very, small % of people who do this crap. And people intent on doing harm will find a way.

    It’s so pathetic to hand down an indictment of the USA when it is just a few out of 350,000,000. And it’s always the pro-abortion clowns being the hypocrites.

  171. 171
  172. 172
    ET says:

    Andrew- That person wasn’t there and doesn’t know.

  173. 173
    asauber says:

    ET,

    Hopefully we’ll get some verified details at some point.

    Andrew

  174. 174
    asauber says:

    Also, the school evidently has a 6ft fence around it. Climb over? Go through the gate?

    Andrew

  175. 175
    asauber says:

    And where does an 18yr old high school dropout with no job get the money to buy weapons and ammo? I can’t imagine he has a credit card.

    Andrew

  176. 176
    Silver Asiatic says:

    He worked at Wendy’s. Was known to be aggressive and angry at times. Was bullied and mocked and … “whose father was never present in his life.”

    Like the abortion issue as discussed – when men abandon their family and kids and don’t take the role of fatherhood seriously – young boys especially suffer and can end up unhinged.
    Crisis of manhood and fatherhood in our country. Lack of role models for men. Effeminate churches and feminism in general. The exaltation of the gay culture. Men don’t get support and are denied authority for raising kids. Even the federal and local government conspire against families. So men drop out, leave it to the women. The teenage boys are filled with rage – and these things happen.

  177. 177
    JVL says:

    ET: Look, it’s just a very, very, very, small % of people who do this crap.

    Oh dear, are the nasty liberals picking on you again? Poor baby.

    BUT, it’s still a much higher percentage of people than in other countries. Why is that do you think, if you’re done getting your knickers in a twist.

    And people intent on doing harm will find a way.

    Gee, I wonder why they prefer using automatic weapons? Do you suppose if they were just a bit harder to obtain then some of those people might not bother or do as much damage? Wouldn’t it be worth it if those 19 kids hadn’t been killed? How much inconvenience are those lives worth? Why is Texas so happy to sell an automatic weapon to an 18-year old who sounds like a high risk individual? Could that 18-year old have made a similar purchase where you live? Sandyhook wasn’t in Texas, what are the laws like there?

    It’s so pathetic to hand down an indictment of the USA when it is just a few out of 350,000,000

    Oh right, you can live with a few gun totting yahoos who take out 10 – 20 innocent people ’cause there aren’t that many of them. Is that what you’d be saying if it was your child’s school?

    And it’s always the pro-abortion clowns being the hypocrites.

    It’s almost like they value primary school kids lives more. Why are you more worried about kids in the wombs than kids in the classrooms? And if you are genuinely worried about kids in the classrooms then what are you going to do about it aside from moaning and whining?

    I heard several long term correspondence from the UK who have spent a lot of time in the US and they all said: every time this happens there’s a lot of weeping and wailing and NOTHING ever happens. Apparently, recently, Texas even relaxed some of its laws. From the outside a country with more guns than people (and I assume that’s just the legal ones) where there are such incidents all the time the US does sound like they love their guns more than they love their kids. And if you think the solution is to put even more guns into play (arm teachers, put guards everywhere) . . . if you’re will to pay for that then it begins to sound even more like an obsession. (Also, can you imagine how effective a scared and barely competent armed teacher is going to be in a classroom full of their students who are getting shot one right after the other? I’d be surprised if they could even hit the gunman themselves. And guess who the gunman would go for next if they missed? With an automatic weapon. It would make the gunfight at the OK Corral look like a honourable dispute.) If you need more social services like mental health support then why not pay for that? If you need more programmes to help at risk people then why not pay for that?

    It’s an American problem and it’s down to Americans to solve. But they don’t want to; they never do anything to help stop it from happening again and again and again. Thousands of children every year. What are you going to do about it?

  178. 178
    jerry says:

    Again, the nonsense from the anti ID people just reflects a divide that is in the world. One group that is interested in truth and one that isn’t.

    Why are the anti ID not interested in truth? That is the much bigger issue in our world and ID is just a small reflection of that.

    I use the term “anti ID” as just an indication of the much bigger divide out there, one that doesn’t know anything about the ID issues. But there is a huge swath of humanity that has no interest in truth unless it affects them personally. The gun argument in the US is just one aspect of it.

  179. 179
    asauber says:

    “every time this happens there’s a lot of weeping and wailing and NOTHING ever happens”

    JVL

    This isn’t true. But often the things that happen don’t really address the problems. And there are many in this case.

    Andrew

  180. 180
    relatd says:

    JVL at 177,

    Try to leave your emotions and politics outside please. This is not a uniquely American problem. I can post a few incidents (not school shootings but people died) from the UK if you like. I had a good conversation with someone from the UK recently. There is definitely a different mentality at work. One that begins from a young age and continues to adulthood.

    No one can get into the minds of those who decide to pick up a weapon and start killing people.

    The gun lobby in the U.S. just wants to sell more guns. That is the reality.

    Apparently, even today, the goal is to promote more gun sales because of “rights.” That’s wrong. It remains to be seen what will be done once this incident is fully investigated.

    And another thing. Don’t lump all Americans into one pot. OK? Not helpful. I have never been arrested, never owned a gun, and never set out to hurt anyone. So saying “they don’t want to” does not refer to me or any of the Americans I know.

  181. 181
  182. 182
    relatd says:

    Here is a statement from the Department of Homeland Security.

    https://www.dhs.gov/news/2022/05/25/statement-secretary-mayorkas-shooting-uvalde-texas

  183. 183
    JVL says:

    Relatd: Try to leave your emotions and politics outside please.

    I find it hard not to get emotional when I think of what it must have been like in that classroom as 19 children lost their lives in a hail of bullets. Think of the the most graphic and bloodiest gun shootout you’ve seen in a film and then replace most of the grownups with children under the age of 10 getting hit in the head or the chest. The survivors will never be able to get that carnage out of their minds.

    This is not a uniquely American problem.

    The incident rate in America is much higher than in countries in Europe and Australia and Canada and New Zealand. You know that.

    And another thing. Don’t lump all Americans into one pot. OK? Not helpful.

    I don’t. I’ve noted that many of my relatives are gun owners none of whom have misused their guns. I’ve seen some of their security and I know how seriously they take their responsibilities. I’ve also noted that I have shot several guns in the US and the UK and admitted that I quite enjoyed the experience.

    My point is that ALL Americans have to figure out how to deal with this problem. I have read the stat that there are more guns (legal I assume) than people in America. I’m just going to guess that MOST people in America do not own a gun based on my 40 years of living there. IF that is true then gun owners are a minority in the country and most of them own two or more firearms. Again, IF that is true then why can’t the non-gun owners do something about the situation? What are you, personally, doing to prevent such a travesty and tragedy from happening again? The kids in the classrooms should not have their brains and entrails sprayed across a classroom wall and their classmates and if there is anything you can do about it then you should . . . shouldn’t you?

  184. 184
    jerry says:

    There were no guns in Nazi Germany nor Communist Russia. I wonder why.

    Compare the horror there with the United States as literally billions would love to live here.

    Also the United States which was founded by men with guns fighting several enemies, British, French, Spanish and Indians essentially along with England created the modern world.

    If it wasn’t for the US and its men willing to die for freedom, all our European friends would be speaking either German or Russian and all of East Asia would be speaking Japanese.

    As I said if the US goes all these other countries which are held up as examples of the enlightened would be gone in 6 months.

    There is an analogy of the jungle and the garden. The garden is unnatural and was uniquely established once in history. It is constantly fighting off the jungle to remain a garden. That garden may require that it have guns to prevent the jungle from reclaiming the garden.

    https://spectator.com.au/2021/06/identity-crisis-how-the-politics-of-race-will-wreck-america/

    As said above, the violence is not wide spread but very concentrated and not in the area of most of the guns. If guns were the problem wouldn’t one expect the most violence to be where most of the guns are? But it is not there.

    As I said this has nothing to do with guns or children dying.

  185. 185
    Silver Asiatic says:

    AS

    Looks like there were some warnings that were ignored along the way also.
    I would think some responsibility needs to come back to the gun retailer. It’s like selling alcohol to someone who is already drunk and is going to drive. In some places the bar has to take responsibility if there’s an accident after that.
    Other kids knew that Salvador Ramos was mentally disturbed, but he never got any treatment or diagnosis. Looks like people weren’t paying attention.

    One reason that many people in America resist stricter gun laws is that they do not trust the government. They see the hypocrisy and desire for control by the authoritarian left and defending oneself with weapons seems to be the only reasonable response. That’s why conservative districts will have liberal gun laws. And liberal environments strictly control what people can do with guns. That’s the contradiction. Extreme liberalism allows abortion on demand and forces people to accept gay-marriage, trans-indoctrination of kids, the southern US border wide-open for illegal entry and lockdowns, vaccine mandates, confiscation of property, imprisonment, termination of employment – and a national-media conspiracy to cover-up these truths (see 2000 Mules and also search “Jan 6 suspicious actors https://www.zerohedge.com/political/80-suspicious-actors-and-material-witnesses-under-scrutiny-jan-6-defense-attorneys And also search “Bobby Powell video”).
    So, people see what the leftist media and government are capable of – therefore private citizens owning guns is considered a first-line of defense against encroachment.
    That’s always the problem with extreme liberalism. It’s a self-serving message of supposed liberation, but if everyone is free to do whatever they want, then there will be chaos.
    The left knows this, and always has. So the message is “do whatever you want in our favored activities – in the areas where you will damage yourself and render yourself maleable to us – drug use, promiscuity) – but in all other areas, we will control your life as socialists will do.”
    For every action there is a reaction.
    When people fear the government they will push back against it. Many Americans fear their government because they don’t recognize themselves as represented by it. America is a huge place and very diverse. People find it hard to have anything in common with each other. It’s not like an ordinary ethnicity (like being from Japan, for example) where everyone is bound together.
    People are frightened because they don’t know what to expect from the left-wing. One day there are men and women, and the next day you can get arrested for using the wrong pronouns (metaphorically speaking). They make abortion legal to the day of birth, but it’s illegal to mention ID in the classroom.
    Where there’s no common philosophy of life within the culture, people cannot communicate with each other. The government can represent ideas that are hostile and threatening.
    So people want freedom for gun purchases – to protect themselves.

  186. 186
    relatd says:

    JVL at 183,

    Your needless use of graphic violence imagery was needless. Please stop it.

    What am I doing to stop gun violence in America?

    Not buying a gun.

    Not associating with people who think violence – real violence – is fun.

    Not replying to people spewing nonsense on internet forums.

  187. 187
    relatd says:

    Jerry at 184,

    Your appeal using history would be accurate if it was, in fact, accurate. No guns in “Nazi” Germany? I had a relative who was in Nazi Germany and he had a gun. He was neither a Nazi or German.

  188. 188
    JVL says:

    Jerry: As I said if the US goes all these other countries which are held up as examples of the enlightened would be gone in 6 months.

    Not anymore. Europe is not in the same state as it was 80 years ago.

    As I said this has nothing to do with guns or children dying.

    It has everything to do with children dying. Everything else pales in comparison. Young children’s blood spread on the floors and walls of their classrooms. Until you decide that that is something that should be stopped then I don’t understand what the point of this thread is.

  189. 189
    relatd says:

    SA at 185,

    “So people want freedom for gun purchases – to protect themselves.”

    If you don’t mind, I’d like you to answer a few questions:

    1) Protect themselves from what? Be specific.

    2) Based on my research, there are enough guns in the U.S. to supply every man, woman and child. Did you know that?

    3) How many rounds are too many? 10,000 or 50,000 or more?

    4) How many weapons should the average person own?

    5) Is an AK-47 a good weapon for self-defense?

  190. 190
    JVL says:

    Relatd: Your needless use of graphic violence imagery was needless. Please stop it.

    That is what happened. If you don’t want to deal with it then you aren’t dealing with the reality.

    Not buying a gun.

    That makes sense.

    Not associating with people who think violence – real violence – is fun.

    Also good.

    Not replying to people spewing nonsense on internet forums.

    Your call.

    Since you don’t wish to visualise the blood-spattered walls of the classroom then are you not just turning your head away from the actual problem: dead children and red sprays of blood and entrails and brains on the walls and floors. THAT is what happened. THAT is what has to be prevented. THAT is what you have to focus on. It is unpleasant, it is difficult, it is actually horrible. But it happened. More than once. Many times actually. You can choose to turn your head away and do so again and again and again. But be honest and admit that that’s what you are doing.

  191. 191
    asauber says:

    “Young children’s blood spread on the floors and walls of their classrooms. Until you decide that that is something that should be stopped”

    “it is difficult, it is actually horrible. But it happened. More than once. Many times actually.”

    JVL,

    Sounds like you are ready for a serious abortion discussion. Just swap the word classroom for abortuary.

    Andrew

  192. 192
    relatd says:

    JVL at 188,

    Please get a grip. Blood on the floors and walls? Were you there? Have you seen the crime scene photos? Were you among the investigators?

    As someone who works with professional writers, your crime scene re-creation is laughable.

  193. 193
    relatd says:

    JVL at 190,

    I have a relative who saw combat during World War II. He was friends with other vets in the neighborhood. You know what? He rarely spoke about what he saw. The same with the other vets.

    We are talking about years of killing with every weapon available.

  194. 194
    asauber says:

    SA,

    So while I was looking for more details on this story I noticed that most of the related news items were gun restriction advocacy. In other words, the details of the shooting aren’t really the purpose of the story.

    Andrew

  195. 195
    ET says:

    JVL:

    Oh dear, are the nasty liberals picking on you again?

    I understand that you don’t like facts. Infants usually don’t.

    BUT, it’s still a much higher percentage of people than in other countries.

    You don’t know that. Many countries don’t report stuff like that.

    Gee, I wonder why they prefer using automatic weapons?

    Hey, dick, what automatic weapons were used in Texas?

    Oh right, you can live with a few gun totting yahoos who take out 10 – 20 innocent people ’cause there aren’t that many of them. Is that what you’d be saying if it was your child’s school?

    We do it properly, here. This could never happen in this school district.

    The school in Texas was allegedly protected. Someone there dropped the ball

    I have already said that Texas has lame gun laws. Pathetically lame, at that.

    Sandy Hook, the mentally ill loser took his mother’s guns. She died for her massive failure.

    Crazy people have hijacked school busses. Using cars or trucks they can easily plow through a crowd of kids. Stuff like that has already been done. Can you imagine what a couple of Malatov cocktails could do to a crowd of people? One loser drove his truck into motorcyclists. They don’t need guns.

    And stop pretending that you care about kids when you allow for their mass slaughter while they are at their most vulnerable. Pathetic.

    There was a time in the USA when we brought rifles to school for firearm safety and shooting lessons. That was in the 20th century- the latter half!

    We know the problem and we know how to solve it. The security in Texas messed up. Now we know they need better training. And if States like Texas allow you to buy a gun just because you are 18 and can lie, they need to pay. Yes, you may be able to get guns illegally. But even those sellers know it can all come back to them, so they are careful about who they sell to.

    So, again, a very, very, very small % of creeps that can be dealt with by competent security. Infringe on the creeps and leave the law-abiding citizens alone.

  196. 196
    relatd says:

    ET at 195,

    Name calling? Finger pointing? What problem has that solved?

    You should contact Homeland Security right now with your suggestions and analysis.

    Feel free to post their response.

  197. 197
    Silver Asiatic says:

    Relatd

    1) Protect themselves from what? Be specific.

    In These 11 Incidents, Gun Owners Defended Life and Property
    https://www.heritage.org/firearms/commentary/these-11-incidents-gun-owners-defended-life-and-property

    2) Based on my research, there are enough guns in the U.S. to supply every man, woman and child. Did you know that?

    Yes

    3) How many rounds are too many? 10,000 or 50,000 or more?

    The Second Amendment doesn’t address that.

    4) How many weapons should the average person own?

    I don’t know. I don’t think they can shoot more than two at a time. But I don’t know what the average person should do.

    5) Is an AK-47 a good weapon for self-defense?

    The government could legitimately decide that some weapons are not appropriate for private ownership – although they could be used for a state militia.

  198. 198
    ET says:

    Relatd @ 196

    Astute observations are not name calling. And the security people already know what to do. What part of, We know the problem and we know how to solve it. didn’t you understand?

    FYI- I did years training the TSA on explosive detection and the use of explosive trace detectors. TSA, nuclear power plants, Colombia, Kuwait, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and even the Statue of Liberty- trained them all on security procedures, equipment and responses.

  199. 199
    Silver Asiatic says:

    AS

    That’s what I saw also. It’s not accurate journalism. They’re just selling a message.

  200. 200
    relatd says:

    Et at 198,
    Do you think I’m an idiot? There was zero – nothing – astute going on.

  201. 201
    Lieutenant Commander Data says:

    Black population in US is 13%.
    2019: 68% of mass shoting perpetrators were black.
    2020 :73% of mass shoting perpetrators were black.
    2021 : 74% of mass shoting perpetrators were black.
    Looks like Demoncratic Party do a very good job with the politic of hate. What a coincidence. Nothing to see here.
    https://mass-shootings.info/index.php

  202. 202
    kairosfocus says:

    JVL, since you choose to turn your head away from a govt, for 49 years, enabling the slaughter of 25,000 of our living posterity in the womb, under colour of law, rights and freedom, thus exposing its nihilism and danger . . . (See how it cuts both ways? Ask why it has been so suppressed to show what especially later in pregnancy abortions attack and the result, e.g. a partial birth abortion?) KF

    PS, It seems some basics.

    – An AR 15, absent significant and highly illegal mods, is semi-automatic, not automatic.

    – Automatic, as long as trigger is depressed and there is ammunition it will continue to fire, typically 6 – 10 rounds per second.

    – Semi-automatic, one trigger pull, one round discharged.

    – The point on contrast between widespread and high gun ownership and areas with high crimes is significant, there is a views and values issue not a simple guns issue.

    – don’t overlook the fight against securing the border just 60 miles away, across which full auto weapons see significant use.

    – The Semi auto AK 47 under appropriate circumstances is an effective defensive weapon; likewise, a useful hunting implement; likewise the AR15, but do not go hunting grizzlies with either. Same for a 12 ga shotgun esp loaded with no 4 buck.

    – a 9mm parabellum pistol also works, the old .45 too. And so forth.

    – And more

  203. 203
    asauber says:

    “Not only does the Uvalde City School District have its own police department— staffed with a chief, five officers, and a security guard—but additional law enforcement called to the scene (including Border Patrol Agents, who ultimately killed Ramos) are shown to have stood idle in the parking lot outside of school as Ramos gunned down 19 children and two teachers in a barricaded classroom.”

    “Even more disturbingly, according to an anonymous law enforcement official, Border Patrol agents couldn’t immediately breach the classroom door. Ultimately, a staff member had to open the room with a key—meaning an inordinate amount of time passed as the Ramos barricaded himself in the fourth-grade classroom.”

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/new-videos-show-police-did-absolutely-nothing-to-stop-the-uvalde-shooter/ar-AAXLddZ?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=94657345fddf4d92ab10b7c2fbeddf6c

    Andrew

  204. 204
    kairosfocus says:

    SA,

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/246

    10 U.S. Code § 246 – Militia: composition and classes

    U.S. Code
    Notes

    prev | next
    (a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
    (b) The classes of the militia are—
    (1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
    (2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.
    (Aug. 10, 1956, ch. 1041, 70A Stat. 14, §?311; Pub. L. 85–861, §?1(7), Sept. 2, 1958, 72 Stat. 1439; Pub. L. 103–160, div. A, title V, §?524(a), Nov. 30, 1993, 107 Stat. 1656; renumbered §?246, Pub. L. 114–328, div. A, title XII, §?1241(a)(2), Dec. 23, 2016, 130 Stat. 2497.)

    That was the context for my points in 30 above. This is also a statement of liability for conscription as necessary. In Russia in 1986, men were apparently pulled off the street and sent in to fight the reactor.

    More can be said.

    I just add, navies cost a lot, take long to build and require decades of tradition to build performance. Formerly, guardian of the seas was the Royal Navy. After WW2, Britain basically retired.

    The guardian of global trade and prosperity is now USN.

    Think about the matches being played with by those fomenting polarisation and chaos in the USA, starting with marxist ideologies, culture form.

    And more.

    KF

  205. 205
    kairosfocus says:

    AS, this sounds like Parkland 2. Save, he seems to have shot his way in, which raises — why weren’t the same doors locked instantly on gunfire outside, blocking him. There are ways to breach doors quickly. Something here is not adding up. KF

  206. 206
    asauber says:

    “Something here is not adding up.”

    KF,

    I agree, and official spokespeople seem evasive. But what else is new?

    Andrew

  207. 207
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: This may be authentic:

    https://twitter.com/MCatronDHS/status/1529271339856629763?s=20&t=PqbNosaonb4TatMWdG2jZA

    Marsha (Catron) Espinosa
    @MCatronDHS
    U.S. Border Patrol Agents responded to a law enforcement request for assistance re an active shooter situation inside Robb Elementary School in Uvalde. Upon entering the building, Agents & other law enforcement officers faced gun fire from the subject, who was barricaded inside.
    9:21 PM · May 24, 2022·Twitter Web App
    197
    Retweets
    52
    Quote Tweets
    562
    Likes
    Marsha (Catron) Espinosa
    @MCatronDHS
    ·
    May 24
    Replying to
    @MCatronDHS
    Risking their own lives, these Border Patrol Agents and other officers put themselves between the shooter and children on the scene to draw the shooter’s attention away from potential victims and save lives.

    Similarly:

    https://nypost.com/2022/05/25/elite-border-patrol-agent-killed-texas-school-shooter-salvador-ramos-reports/

    An off-duty Customs and Border Protection agent from an elite tactical unit is the hero who shot and killed the Robb Elementary School gunman before he could continue his massacre, reports said Wednesday.

    The agent, a member of CBP’s Border Patrol Tactical Unit (BORTAC), rushed into the school while the shooter was still active and began exchanging rounds with the gunman, who was barricaded inside a fourth-grade classroom, NBC and Fox reported.

    The officer was injured during the shooting but he managed to “eliminate the threat” and kill the shooter before he could commit more carnage, law enforcement sources told NBC.

    The agent, part of CBP’s Del Rio sector, which covers Uvalde, was trained in a manner similar to US special forces. BORTAC agents are taught to handle terror threats abroad and other chaos, such as riots at ICE detention facilities, NBC reported.

    Marsha Espinosa, the Department of Homeland Security’s assistant secretary of public affairs, confirmed on Twitter late Tuesday that at least one Border Patrol agent was wounded by the shooter.

    Disturbing, consistent with reports of a 40 minute delay before going in:

    https://nypost.com/2022/05/26/videos-show-parents-begging-cops-to-stop-texas-school-shooting/

    Harrowing videos captured the heartbreaking wails of parents begging cops to “Go protect the kids!” during the Texas school shooting — with some suggesting they “just rush” the school themselves.

    The livestreamed footage captured the unbearable anguish as parents rushed to Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, where deranged gunman Salvador Ramos, 18, was inside for up to an hour as he killed 19 kids and two teachers.

    “You know that they are kids right?” one angry man yelled at officers in one clip obtained by the Washington Post.

    “They’re little kids, they don’t know how to defend themselves… 6-year-old kids in there, they don’t know how to defend themselves from a shooter!”

    “We’re parents! Take him the [] out!” begged a mother to an officer, after the cop shoved a frustrated parent and tells the gathered crowd to back up.

    Earlier in the same video, a frustrated dad declares “all the parents are gonna go in,” while the same woman yells “[] that, like our kids are there” as cops tell them to take cover.

    Kindly, refer to 30 above.

    We now have some substantial reports that allow looking at substance.

    Earlier it was said he shot his way in, why weren’t doors immediately locked?

    Why so long a delay before forming a team to go in?

    If there had been proper training and organisation of external guards and staff within, would things have been different?

    KF

  208. 208
    JVL says:

    Relatd: Please get a grip. Blood on the floors and walls? Were you there? Have you seen the crime scene photos? Were you among the investigators?

    What do you think the scene looks like? I suspect, at this point, that they are only in the preliminary stages of investigation. Everything will have to be photographed. Every body will be recorded in complete detail; where the bullet entered, where it exited, where the body fell, the distances will be measured and photographed. Back in the lab the bodies will be photographed again and again and again as the clothing is removed; they will be turned over to show entry and exit wounds. Eventually, they will be cut open to show the massive internal damage and a cause of death will be determined. You’ve all seen it on various TV shows but this time it’s real. Picture that.

    You know what? He rarely spoke about what he saw. The same with the other vets.

    What is your point exactly? We shouldn’t talk about the reality of young children being gunned down in their classroom? Is the trauma and truth too painful to deal with? Does that mean you’re not going to at least try and do something to stop it from happening again?

    If you can’t deal with a classroom filled with dead, bleeding bodies of primary school children lying as they fell, wearing their Iron Man or Frozen or Spider Man t-shirts and their shoes that flash when they walk and their fancy hair bands and their fit-bits then I don’t think you should be even talking about this. That is what happened. Someone needs to deal with it. if it’s not you then step aside and let some adults have a go.

  209. 209
    kairosfocus says:

    PS, I notice from NYP:

    “Another clip caught even more angry parents confronting officers standing around outside.”

    “A law enforcement official familiar with the investigation told the Associated Press that the Border Patrol agents had trouble breaching the classroom door.”

    These are evident crime scene facts. The first indicates the officers outside were closing a perimeter and did not think themselves in immediate danger.

    When seconds mark life/death, they were holding a perimeter.

    Next, clearly the door to the class room was reinforced, it was not shut in time to give the shooter trouble breaking in.

    Some things failed here.

    KF

  210. 210
    kairosfocus says:

    JVL, I suggest you pause and note substantial evidence on the table. KF

  211. 211
    JVL says:

    ET: Hey, dick, what automatic weapons were used in Texas?

    You tell me. I doubt the killer used a revolver.

    The school in Texas was allegedly protected. Someone there dropped the ball

    Clearly something went wrong.

    Crazy people have hijacked school busses. Using cars or trucks they can easily plow through a crowd of kids. Stuff like that has already been done. Can you imagine what a couple of Malatov cocktails could do to a crowd of people? One loser drove his truck into motorcyclists. They don’t need guns.

    They don’t. But they prefer guns. Clearly.

    And stop pretending that you care about kids when you allow for their mass slaughter while they are at their most vulnerable. Pathetic.

    I don’t allow that; the US Supreme Court (has) allowed that. And most of the American public allows that. But NO ONE thinks that leaving 19 primary school children bleeding out and dead in a school classroom is acceptable. NO ONE.

    So, again, a very, very, very small % of creeps that can be dealt with by competent security. Infringe on the creeps and leave the law-abiding citizens alone.

    So, you are willing to pay for that? How much of a tax increase would that entail? I’m not disagreeing with your solution; I’m just asking if you’re willing to pay for it.

  212. 212
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N, More from NYP:

    Another clip caught even more angry parents confronting officers standing around outside, with the livestreamer saying that it had “already been about an hour and they still can’t get the kids all out.”

    “That’s [] crazy, bro — they’re standing all outside [and] there’s [] kids in there still, man,” he said.

    One mom yelled at an officer, “You’re scared of getting shot? I’ll go in without a vest — I will!”
    One of the disturbing clips, seen nearly 2 million times by Thursday, shows several parents trying to get past police lines. One of the disturbing clips, seen nearly 2 million times by Thursday, shows several parents trying to get past police lines.

    As an officer tells them to stand back, one mom wails, “You don’t understand!” Another shouts, “Are your kids in there? No!”

    The person filming the livestream told one officer, “Half of these [] parents here, dude, they wanna go in there — without vests, without guns — to get their [] kids.”

    Javier Cazares — whose daughter, Jacklyn Cazares, was one of the 19 kids shot dead in her fourth-grade classroom — was one of the desperate parents at the scene. He blasted cops as “unprepared.”

    He recalled hearing gunfire and suggesting to others at the scene, “Let’s just rush in because the cops aren’t doing anything like they are supposed to.”

    He also told the Washington Post, “We didn’t care about us. We wanted to storm the building. We were saying, ‘Let’s go’ because that is how worried we were, and we wanted to get our babies out.”

    One of the first responders, firefighter Ernest “Chip” King, said some of those parents actually made it past the cordons and “were getting in” to the school.

    He told The Post there were fathers “breaking out windows, pulling their kids out of windows. It was a terrible, tragic scene.”

    Juan Carranza, 24, who saw the whole thing unfold from his house across the street from Robb Elementary, also recalled hearing women screaming at cops, “Go in there! Go in there!”

    He was outraged that they did not get the shooter sooner. “There were more of them. There was just one of him,” he said.

    The first officer had confronted Ramos — who was carrying an AR-style rifle — after he crashed his grandmother’s truck outside the school and then ran toward the building around 11:30 a.m. Tuesday.

    Texas Gov. Greg Abbott also insisted the school shooting — the deadliest since 20 kids and six adults were killed in Sandy Hook in 2012 — “could have been worse” without the officers’ response.Texas Gov. Greg Abbott also insisted the school shooting — the deadliest since 20 kids and six adults were killed in Sandy Hook in 2012 — “could have been worse” without the officers’ response.

    Gunfire was not exchanged and Ramos was able to get into the school. The officer “followed him right in immediately,” which is “when rounds were exchanged,” Texas Department of Public Safety Director Steve McCraw said Wednesday.

    The deranged gunman ran down a hallway to two adjoining classrooms and barricaded himself in, the official revealed.

    “And that’s where the carnage began,” McCraw said, with the 19 kids and two teachers who were shot dead all being in the same room.

    This is a clear policing failure, just from media pickup.

    We need to hear and see transcripts for police communication.

    See 30 above.

    KF

  213. 213
    JVL says:

    Kairosfocus: since you choose to turn your head away from a govt, for 49 years, enabling the slaughter of 25,000 of our living posterity in the womb, under colour of law, rights and freedom, thus exposing its nihilism and danger . . . (See how it cuts both ways? Ask why it has been so suppressed to show what especially later in pregnancy abortions attack and the result, e.g. a partial birth abortion?)

    Abortion is a divisive issue and something else America has to deal with mostly because there is a lot of disagreement about it. BUT NOT ONE disagrees that primary school children being shot to death in their classroom is acceptable. Since we agree on that why not try and solve that.

    I’m just going to ignore your weapon porn wherein you spend too much time thinking about the weapons used and not enough about the dead and bleeding bodies of young children.

  214. 214
    kairosfocus says:

    JVL, at this point, you are playing red herring games. There is enough on the table to identify a major policing failure. One that ran for 40 minutes until an off duty Border Patrol agent — yes a demonised agency, we recall that recent media circus — got in and stopped the gunman. The target hardening issue is squarely on the table. KF

  215. 215
    kairosfocus says:

    PS, more from officialdom,

    Despite the criticism, McCraw defended the response Wednesday.

    “The bottom line is law enforcement was there,” he said defensively. “They did engage immediately. They did contain (Ramos) in the classroom.”

    How many survived that 40 minutes in that classroom? What were the survived, killed, wounded percentages?

    Policing failure

    KF

  216. 216
    kairosfocus says:

    JVL, you are taking to personal insult. That speaks, especially when you are unresponsive to substantial facts. KF

  217. 217
    JVL says:

    Kairosfocus: I suggest you pause and note substantial evidence on the table

    I am thinking about and dealing with the truth of 19 primary school children and 2 teachers lying dead in a classroom because some jerk was able to buy powerful weapons which he, apparently, did not need to justify his use of. You can sit there and talk about calibers and entry points and security issues and other tactical questions but if you are not focusing on the corpses of the children then let me suggest Kairosfocus that your focus is misdirected.

    Perhaps you’d like to help process that crime scene? Perhaps you’d like to photograph the bodies and the blood spatter. Perhaps you’d like to photograph and collect the round casings? Perhaps you like to find the rounds buried in the walls and desks and floor? Perhaps, after all the bodies and evidence has been removed you’d like to go in with a mop and clean up all the blood and brains and viscera?

    Perhaps, since you say you care about human life, you should be focusing on that?

  218. 218
    relatd says:

    JVL at 208,

    Turn off the tape recorder. OK? You are repeating yourself. Talk to real people in law enforcement, right now. Talk to Homeland Security, right now. OK?

    You actually know what kinds of shirts the kids were wearing? Unless you were there, stop lying.

  219. 219
    JVL says:

    Kairosfocus: at this point, you are playing red herring games. There is enough on the table to identify a major policing failure. One that ran for 40 minutes until an off duty Border Patrol agent — yes a demonised agency, we recall that recent media circus — got in and stopped the gunman. The target hardening issue is squarely on the table

    There is no way, unless you want to pay for a lot more police officers, that you are going to substantially improve the response on average in situations like this. Are you saying that you are willing to pay a lot more taxes for a lot more police officers to not only improve the response time but also to ‘harden’ targets like primary schools? How much money do you want to spend when imposing COVID restrictions was roundly condemned by those who said it would ruin the economy?

    you are taking to personal insult. That speaks, especially when you are unresponsive to substantial facts.

    You are losing your focus. You think talking about guns and tactics and entry points and ‘hardening’ targets is the way to deal with dead children and their parents. You favour meeting fire with fire, an eye for an eye, guns meet guns. When are you going to beat your swords into plowshares? (I think I’ve got the quote wrong, I would like to be corrected on that.)

  220. 220
    relatd says:

    JVL at 213,

    “weapon porn”? What kind of sick nonsense is that?

    Or are you shilling for someone else?

  221. 221
    relatd says:

    JVL at 217,

    It appears that you are a shill. A purveyor of certain details that you can only guess. Stop it.

    Or you can ask local law enforcement for the crime scene photos. And tell them what they should do.

  222. 222
    JVL says:

    Relatd: Turn off the tape recorder. OK? You are repeating yourself. Talk to real people in law enforcement, right now. Talk to Homeland Security, right now. OK?

    I think you’re right: I should quit because, apparently, on this forum, most people aren’t as appalled and horrified as I am. Most people don’t seem to be determined to do whatever it takes to make sure this kind of thing will ever happen again. My apologies; I thought we all agreed on that.

    You actually know what kinds of shirts the kids were wearing? Unless you were there, stop lying.

    I guess I spend more time with primary school children than you do. Perhaps you should accept a bit of poetic license because the point being made is valid instead of nit picking without having anything else substantial to add.

    I’ll just leave it up to you to, once again as before, DO NOTHING to stop this kind of thing happening again. It’s a tradition in America now, widely recognised around Europe.

  223. 223
    ET says:

    Automatic weapons were not used in any school shootings. And we already pay for the security. Communities are already doing something. This appears to be a case of the security process not being followed.

  224. 224
    relatd says:

    JVL at 219,

    There’s no money to deal with this problem? How do you know that? Have you contacted the Office of Management and Budget? The White House? Homeland Security? Do you have any facts about how much money is available? Have you called Elon Musk? He’s got 200 billion dollars laying around.

  225. 225
    ET says:

    And Europe was the cause of TWO World Wars. Millions upon millions of people were needlessly killed. Children included. Europeans are the last people who get to tell the USA how to do things.

  226. 226
    ET says:

    Relatd:

    Do you think I’m an idiot?

    I don’t give you any thought at all.

  227. 227
    JVL says:

    Relatd: It appears that you are a shill. A purveyor of certain details that you can only guess. Stop it.

    I’m really, really sorry you cannot put yourself into the situation which you know must have happened. 22 bodies (counting the gunman), that con’t be pleasant. There must be lots of blood and viscera, clearly. We all know how crime scenes are processed thanks to all the TV shows we’ve all watched, we know how every body is photographed and marked, eventually taken back to be ‘processed’ which means a lot more photographs and a thorough autopsy. I don’t know why you are trying to pretend this is not happening: the photographs, the samples being taken, the autopsies, the round retrievals, the shell casing retrieval’s, the interviews with the survivors and, eventually, someone mopping up all the blood.

    But, I guess if you’re good just ignoring the truth . . .

  228. 228
    asauber says:

    “It appears that you are a shill.”

    JVL is a known Troll.

    Andrew

  229. 229
    JVL says:

    ET: Automatic weapons were not used in any school shootings. And we already pay for the security. Communities are already doing something. This appears to be a case of the security process not being followed.

    Guess we’re going to have to spend even more money to make sure the people we are already paying money to do something are actually doing what they are being paid to do.

    I hope you’re good with that.

  230. 230
    relatd says:

    JVL at 222,

    “Most people don’t seem to be determined to do whatever it takes to make sure this kind of thing will ever happen again. My apologies; I thought we all agreed on that.”

    WHO are you going to contact to make sure this doesn’t happen again?

    “It’s a tradition in America now, widely recognised around Europe.”

    Letting kids get killed has become a “tradition’ in America. Walk up to any member of law enforcement and say that.

    And what’s the big deal with Europe? Or do you want posts about the various bombings that have occurred there? Is anyone telling people in some European countries: You should stop the bombings?

  231. 231
    JVL says:

    Relatd: There’s no money to deal with this problem? How do you know that? Have you contacted the Office of Management and Budget? The White House? Homeland Security? Do you have any facts about how much money is available? Have you called Elon Musk? He’s got 200 billion dollars laying around.

    Well, it keeps happening. What does that tell you? Not enough money being spent? People not doing their jobs? What are you going to do to make sure things are different from now on? What are you going to do to make sure no more parents have to bury their primary school child because someone was able to buy an assault weapon and take it to a local primary school and get into a classroom and kill 21 people? What are you going to do? It’s your country, what are you going to do?

  232. 232
    JVL says:

    ET: And Europe was the cause of TWO World Wars. Millions upon millions of people were needlessly killed. Children included. Europeans are the last people who get to tell the USA how to do things.

    Europe has changed. Europe is now cooperating and working together. It’s an amazing thing: after millennia of conflict western Europe is no longer trying to kill their neighbours. I’m very glad and happy to be able to witness an astounding change in behaviour that had been going on for centuries. It gives me hope for humanity.

  233. 233
    ET says:

    131,00 schools in the USA

    $54 BILLION dollar Ukrainian aid bill

    Could be $412,000 to every school for security upgrades

    Let THAT sink in. If the government wanted to stop this crap, they could.

  234. 234
    AnimatedDust says:

    I am very late to this dance. I might be able to help some with the police side of things. I am in my 34th year, a chief at the state level, and all of my cops are armed with AR-15s, as am I. It rides between my front seats in my unit, next to my bean bag shotgun. I was SWAT for 21 years and am an instructor on several platforms, including submachine guns and patrol rifles.

    If anyone has any questions, shoot. (pun intended.)

    I am not that well briefed on Uvalde. He did climb a fence. He did not engage with an SRO prior to entry.

  235. 235
    kairosfocus says:

    JVL, I have said enough on your resort to insults. The fact is, more than enough officers were on the scene quite early. The doors were obviously reinforced but because they were not used early to block the attacker from entering the building and classrooms, they were used later to block police responders, and we see remarks on waiting for a key. A standard, low tech procedure I know of as since the middle ages, is use a ram. In policing, used for decades; IIRC, 1920’s with the mafia. Try, a 5 – 6 ft length of old telephone pole with handles for say four officers. Cost, maybe US$ 100. Run at the door and hit, it will normally break it open with a loud disorienting bang; if necessary, flash bangs and smoke or tear gas. Follow through with a wedge of officers, maybe even the ones who just breached the door. Beforehand, do a drone or fibre optic cable look. Something like that. The form a perimeter, bring up a negotiator doctrine or the like failed here. The doors as barriers failed here. The guards at the gates failed here. Something was very wrong here. It sounds to me that some target hardening is in order. KF

  236. 236
    relatd says:

    From the Wall Street investment site, The Street:

    Excerpt: “Gun owners – and there are an estimated 80 million of them – see their firearms as a way to defend their own freedoms and property. Banning or restricting guns is therefore seen as a violation of their rights.

    “In 2012 a gunman killed 20 children and six adults in Sandy Hook primary school. Afterwards there was broader support for gun control, but gun reform never materialized.”

    I am praying for this to change.

  237. 237
    kairosfocus says:

    AD, he climbed a fence toting an AR 15 and immediate alarms and locked doors did not happen? Just what engagement happened between when he climbed the fence and entered the building? Were there at least two security present to go for him right away? Maybe it is time to learn from the Israelis and how they handled suicide bombing campaigns. KF

  238. 238
    AnimatedDust says:

    KF, I had no idea you were such a gun nut.

  239. 239
    ET says:

    The SRO was nowhere to be found. Police allegedly engaged him before he entered an unlocked door. They didn’t follow him in. People wanted to storm the school.

    Clearly, more training is required. Clint Eastwood had a word for what happened. Clusterf%^$

  240. 240
    AnimatedDust says:

    I caught the 1 PM briefing from the Texas DPS chief. At this time the rear door was unlocked and he started firing before he went into the structure.

  241. 241
    relatd says:

    AD at 234,

    Please avoid the use of acronyms. Most people don’t know them.

  242. 242
    kairosfocus says:

    Relatd, I already pointed to the clear signs of a disaffected public. A gun confiscation push would only trigger a massive upheaval, given evidence of decades of lawless ruthless officialdom playing lawfare games and with 63 million lives on their hands. The emerging evidence points to policing failure and the need for target hardening. I am wondering if there is more, along lines of social/psychological services failure and perhaps ritalin or the like. KF

  243. 243
    AnimatedDust says:

    Sorry, special weapons and tactics and school resource officer.

  244. 244
    asauber says:

    AD,

    I read he “evaded” the officers who were there who could’ve prevented entry. I think that needs to be explained.

    Andrew

  245. 245
    relatd says:

    AD at 243,

    Thanks.

  246. 246
    AnimatedDust says:

    Andrew according to the chief, there were no officers there prior to entry. They entered within four minutes of his entry and took fire immediately. Two were wounded and they pulled back and held and that seems to be the beginning of the standoff.

  247. 247
    Lieutenant Commander Data says:

    JVL
    I am thinking about and dealing with the truth of 19 primary school children and 2 teachers lying dead

    😆 A darwinist playing Jesus and after 5 minutes on other topic will talk about “survival of the fittest” and the truth of evolution.

  248. 248
    JVL says:

    Relatd: WHO are you going to contact to make sure this doesn’t happen again?

    The problem in the UK is much, much, much less. And I support all efforts here to eliminate the problem entirely. What are you going to do in America?

    And what’s the big deal with Europe? Or do you want posts about the various bombings that have occurred there? Is anyone telling people in some European countries: You should stop the bombings?

    I am very, very aware of the bombing in Europe; they all get very widely reported and analysed. And, guess what, the government introduces new legislation to try and prevent further incidents. And money is spent on policing and investigations. Every time some act of terrorism occurs the government and the policing and the laws get exhaustively checked and considered. After the killings at Dunblane laws were changed because people were so appalled because of what happened. Something happened because, clearly, something needed to change.

    What needs to change in America? Or, as usual, based on past experience, will nothing happen?

  249. 249
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: I found some comments worth following up,

    https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2022/05/hero-injured-off-duty-border-patrol-agent-shot-killed-mass-murderer-salvador-ramos-video/#comment-5868521711

    James Green TheOldOne • 14 hours ago • edited

    New Facts are Changing the Narrative…Now Records show it took LE 90 minutes from 1st 911 call until Entry was made. A Armed School Resource Officer confronted Ramos, but didn’t exchange fire or stop him from entering.

    Moment frantic parents urge COPS to STORM Texas school after massacre as dad of victim said he considered CHARGING in himself & it’s revealed CBP agents had to Find & use a KEY to enter after they were UNABLE to break down door

    • Footage has emerged showing the panic-stricken parents of the Texas schoolchildren screaming at law enforcement to enter the school.
    • Questions are being asked as to why it took 90 MINUTES (1.5 hrs) between the first 911 call & the gunman being shot dead.
    • It also emerged on Wednesday night that the AUTHORITIES had to find a KEY to get inside the room where the gunman was barricaded with the children.
    • Jacinto Cazares’s daughter Jacklyn was among the 19 children & 2 teachers at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde shot dead Tuesday by Salvador Ramos, 18.
    • Cazares wants answers as to why the first 911 call came at 11:32 am & yet Ramos was not shot dead until 1 pm.
    • One man who lives opposite the school said that a WOMAN was YELLING at the police: ‘GO IN THERE!’ – but they did not.
    • The school had ARMED SECURITY, yet Ramos was still able to get in: multiple officers were shot by Ramos, who was wearing a body armor plate Carrier WITHOUT PLATES.
    • The city of Uvalde is 80 miles west of San Antonio & the same distance from the border with Mexico: Border Agents were among those who responded.
    • Texas’s Director of the Department of Public Safety said: ‘Obviously, this is situation we FAILED in the sense that we didn’t prevent this mass attack’.
    • New footage shows the chaotic crowd outside the school, as heavily-armed sheriffs & law enforcement stand guard & hold them back – in One case, seemingly WRESTLING a PANIC STRICKEN WOMAN to the GROUND & PINNING her DOWN.
    • ‘WHAT ARE YOU DOING? Get inside the building!’ One person can be heard screaming.
    • Steve McCraw, Director of the Texas Department of Public Safety (DPS), said on Wednesday that a “BRAVE” School Resource Officer ‘APPROACHED HIM & “ENGAGED HIM” – but added that “GUNFIRE WAS NOT EXCHANGED.”
    • He did Not Explain Why.
    • Lt. Chris Olivarez, TX DPS’s Spokesperson said that the Agent was injured in his leg.”They are trying to figure out if he was shot in the leg or hit by shrapnel.”
    • His Grandfather, Ronaldo Reyes, 72, said the teenager lived in a front room & slept on a mattress on the floor & had no idea his grandson purchased 2 AR-15s nor that he kept them in the house.
    • Ronaldo Reyes, a convicted felon, is Not Allowed to have Guns inside his home, he said & if he knew Ramos was keeping weapons there he said he would have turned in his grandson.
    • Romos’s Grandmother was attempting to Evict daughter Adriana Reyes & her Boyfriend from the Hood St Trailer due to Drug Addiction & other problems.
    • His mother, Adriana Reyes, 39, said on Wednesday her son ‘Wasn’t a Violent Person’ & was “SURPRISED” he opened fire, but admitted her son was someone who “kept to himself & didn’t have many friends”.
    • Ramos is the son of Reyes & Salvador Ramos, 42 – both of whom have a Criminal History. Ramos Sr since 2000.
    • Ramos’ neighbor Ruben Flores, 41, said the shooter & his mother would often have screaming matches, with police being called to the home on multiple occasions.
    • Ramos’s Mother’s Boyfriend, Manuel Alvarez 62, said Ramos often stayed in his room on Hood Street, where he would repeatedly hit a punching bag by himself.

    I am not vouching for this, there is need for clarified and confirmed facts on what sounds like another failure of existing systems case.

    KF

  250. 250
    asauber says:

    AD,

    Thanks. I’m just a little dismayed that he basically just walked in after climbing a fence.

    Andrew

  251. 251
    AnimatedDust says:

    Not only that, but after he crashed his truck he shot at two people at a distance and missed them. He then climbed the fence and started shooting before walking into the building. This according to the chief at 1 PM.

  252. 252
    relatd says:

    AD,

    Can you verify what weapons were used and what types of magazines?

    Excerpt from today’s The Street:

    “On Tuesday an 18-year-old man armed with two weapons and several high-capacity magazines barricaded himself in a classroom at the Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas where he shot and killed 19 students and two adults. Border police eventually entered and killed the suspect.”

  253. 253
    kairosfocus says:

    Okie, Daily Mail clips, just their usual unique bullet points head and leads:

    1: >>Texas cops reveal there was NO armed guard on campus when gunman walked through unlocked door with his AR-15: First officers on scene retreated when he opened fire on them then waited an HOUR for SWAT
    Salvador Ramos arrived at Robb Elementary School at 11.40am on Tuesday morning after crashing his truck
    Contrary to earlier reports,
    there was no school police resource officer there when he arrived
    He walked ‘unobstructed’ into the school then police arrived four minutes later
    He shot at them so they retreated – leaving him alone in the classroom with the children and teachers he killed
    It took an hour for SWAT teams to arrive, break into the room and finally kill him while other kids hid
    There is growing anger over the police response and the fact that some parents were held back from entering
    They wanted to storm the school themselves after showing up to find 150 cops ‘standing around’ outside

    By JENNIFER SMITH, CHIEF REPORTER FOR DAILYMAIL.COM

    PUBLISHED: 20:49 BST, 26 May 2022 | UPDATED: 21:28 BST, 26 May 2022>>

    2: >>Texas officials launch investigation into Uvalde police response to school shooting: Conflicting statements over gunfight with the shooter and videos show parents being held down by cops outside while kids were trapped with the gunman
    Salvador Ramos arrived at Robb Elementary School at 11.30am on Tuesday morning after crashing his truck
    A school resource officer at the scene failed to stop him from making his way inside and barricading himself
    He locked himself in a fourth grade classroom where he shot dead 19 kids and two of their teachers
    It took police at least hour to breach the classroom to shoot him – and it’s now claimed they needed a key to get into the room
    As they struggled to get him inside, desperate parents were held back from the school by cops with tasers
    In new video, police are shown restraining one frantic man who asked them why they weren’t in the school
    ‘We’re taking care of it!’ yelled one officer who was holding parents back from the scene
    One law enforcement official anonymously revealed cops took so long to get into the classroom because they needed a key
    It was only when a staff member found one for them that they got inside, according to NPR
    By JENNIFER SMITH, CHIEF REPORTER and HARRIET ALEXANDER FOR DAILYMAIL.COM

    PUBLISHED: 13:40 BST, 26 May 2022 | UPDATED: 20:16 BST, 26 May 2022>>

    3: >>PICTURED: Grisly head wound and bullet-ridden baseball cap worn by hero Border Patrol agent, who stormed Texas school and killed gunman, show just how close he came to being killed himself
    New photo shows the bullet-ridden baseball cap worn by the brave Border Patrol agent who killed the 18-year-old gunman
    A picture of the agent’s head, showing stitches where he was grazed by a bullet, was also released
    The unidentified agent is reportedly from the Border Patrol’s elite tactical unit, known as BORTAC
    By GINA MARTINEZ FOR DAILYMAIL.COM

    PUBLISHED: 16:09 BST, 26 May 2022 | UPDATED: 17:50 BST, 26 May 2022>>

    Please note, 150 cops standing around while a gunman has about an hour that he used to kill people. Waiting for a key when in an hour an improvised battering ram could have been used. The cordon off and negotiate doctrine seems implicit in this.

    Target hardening is clearly indicated.

    Again, see 30 above.

    KF

  254. 254
    JHolo says:

    The gunman behind the mass shooting at an elementary school here lingered outside the building for 12 minutes firing shots before walking into the school and barricading in a classroom where he killed 19 children and two teachers, authorities said in a news conference Thursday laying out a new timeline of events.

  255. 255
    JHolo says:

    KF: Target hardening is clearly indicated.

    The need to “target hardening” is an admission of failure. As are gated communities.

  256. 256
    kairosfocus says:

    PS, on the scenario outlined, he could have used an old fashioned revolver to do this. The response was that bad. Yesterday I was thinking cops were there at start and backup took a few minutes with our hero charging in 3 – 5 minutes; even that fast there should have been 2 or more going in [maybe behind flash bangs], to cause split attention for a crucial few seconds. Instead, the cordon and wait game gave him an hour or thereabouts. KF

  257. 257
    AnimatedDust says:

    Presuming the guns were the same ones he posted on social media, they were 16 inch barreled AR-15s with collapsible stocks. The magazines were presumably 30 rounders. The two magazines in the two pictured guns were 30s.

    He took one into the school and left the other one in his crashed truck.

  258. 258
    asauber says:

    “they needed a key to get into the room”

    Couldn’t break in the door or windows?

    Andrew

  259. 259
    AnimatedDust says:

    JH, Target hardening is a term used to describe a necessity based on the reality of life in the States today.

  260. 260
    AnimatedDust says:

    AS at 258: most likely a solid wood door that opens out. Also likely the classroom was not windowed.

  261. 261
    kairosfocus says:

    JH, yes, of civilisational failure as life is devalued and nihilism grows apace. In too many cases with Govt backing. Mind you, many, many US communities — often quite heavily armed — have extremely low rates of violent crime. We are also seeing signs of policing failure and of failure of social/family support services. Israel showed us that target hardening works, once one is willing to acknowledge the unpleasant reality of nihilistic mass attacks. KF

  262. 262
    relatd says:

    AD at 257,

    Has an official motive been assigned?

  263. 263
    AnimatedDust says:

    Not that I am aware of, but his past is starting to come out. Reportedly bullied for a childhood stutter, and a crap home life. Very dark and angry. The typical stuff.

  264. 264
    asauber says:

    AD,

    From the looks of it Ross Elementary is small, and the fence is like next to it almost. I can’t believe a classroom there wouldn’t have windows. Maybe more info will come out.

    Andrew

  265. 265
    relatd says:

    AD at 263,

    Well, until the investigation is complete, I hope others here will avoid speculating. I’m sure families and relatives want answers with all of the details surrounding the shooter’s actions once he arrived on the scene.

  266. 266
    AnimatedDust says:

    Totally possible that there would be classrooms without windows.

    The high school my kids went to had a lower floor with 25 classrooms and zero windows.

    Even with a battering ram, a solid wood door that opens out with a steel frame is not going to be easy to defeat. Especially if he is cranking rounds at it from inside.

  267. 267
    kairosfocus says:

    AD, a reasonably sized battering ram would work, say 100+ lbs of phone pole charged or swung at the door by a team. Flash bangs or the like as soon as it breached. Not the dinky toy one officer unit. officers surging in behind and going hi-lo, left-right. KF

  268. 268
    AnimatedDust says:

    KF, with respect, keep doing the philosophy of science. Better to leave your imagined SWAT tactics to armed professionals.

  269. 269
    AnimatedDust says:

    Relatd @265: It will happen. It will be more than a year before there is a complete official report. The school will be closed that entire time, and a likely possibility that it will be razed afterward.

    Information flows too quickly these days. There is no way people will avoid speculating. Entire world is speculating about this at the moment.

  270. 270
    JHolo says:

    AD: JH, Target hardening is a term used to describe a necessity based on the reality of life in the States today.

    But why? It is not required in Canada, Australia, New Zealand, most of Europe, Scandinavia, Japan, and many other countries. What is the difference? Could it possibly be the gun culture that the rest of the world doesn’t understand? Is the US willing to continue to support a misinterpretation of the 2nd amendment at the expense of its children?

  271. 271
    relatd says:

    AD at 269,

    Since the internet is a mix of news from credible sources, and non-credible nonsense posted by speculators, I have a suggestion. An official location online just for this incident run by identified persons for family, and the curious, to get actual answers, not the junk that I’ve seen online.

    “More than a year…” Well, I hope some here read that and realize that their adrenaline fueled, instant gratification romps on the internet means sometimes they will have to wait.

  272. 272
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: Another account:

    https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2022/05/26/shock-dps-reveals-uvalde-shooter-entered-thru-unlocked-door-no-school-police-officer/

    >>The Texas Department of Public Safety (DPS) revealed Thursday that the gunman who murdered 19 children and two teachers in Uvalde on Tuesday walked into the school through an unlocked door, and did not encounter any school police.

    Previously, the media had been informed that the 18-year-old who carried out a mass shooting at the Robb Elementary School had been confronted by an armed school resource officer outside school, and had exchanged gunfire with him.

    On Thursday, DPS Regional Director Victor Escalon told reporters that at 11:28 a.m. on Tuesday, after the gunman crashed a pickup truck near the school, he began his attack. The gunman climbed a four-foot-high chain link fence around the school, and fired at the school as he approached. He also fired at two eyewitnesses at a funeral home nearby. By 11:40 a.m., he had approached the west side of the school. He “was not confronted by anybody” outside the school, armed or otherwise.

    Escalon added that there was no school resource officer on campus, and that the first report came to police at 11:30 a.m.

    Though said it was still uncertain, it appeared that the shooter had entered the building through an unlocked door. He said that further investigation could reveal that the door was unlocked, but that at the moment it appeared to have been unlocked.

    Escalon added that local police responded sixteen minutes after the crash, at 11:44 a.m., and entered the building, but retreated after an exchange of gunfire in which some officers were apparently wounded. Law enforcement then waited outside the building for an hour.

    There were apparently some negotiations with the gunman, who had barricaded himself inside a fourth-grade classroom. There were few gunshots during that hour; Fox News reported that most of the killing happened early, though it was not apparent whether some of the victims who were wounded in the first minutes of the rampage could still have been saved.

    The shooter was killed in an exchange of gunfire with a Border Patrol tactical officer who later rushed into the building.>>

    So, apparently he had an easy entry, the doors were not instantly locked on sound of shooting, it was cordon off and negotiate.

    KF

  273. 273
    AnimatedDust says:

    JH @270. Nice condescension. It’s actually the correct interpretation of the amendment, your external preferences, notwithstanding.

  274. 274
    kairosfocus says:

    AD, I hear you though I suggest the relevant tactics are commando tactics, try SAS Iran Embassy KF

  275. 275
    JHolo says:

    AD: JH @270. Nice condescension.

    Oh. You noticed? But I also noticed that you didn’t respond to the fact that other countries don’t see the need to turn schools into fortresses.

    Shouldn’t the goal be to not have to turn schools into fortresses.

  276. 276
    AnimatedDust says:

    They had six -days-to prepare for that entry, and that wasn’t an active shooter. It was a terrorist hostage taking. Extensive negotiations.

    Explosive breaching charges for entry and planned, well-rehearsed entries.

    Total apples and oranges.

  277. 277
    kairosfocus says:

    JH, very different circumstances and you may be surprised to learn of attacks in other places, often with knives etc. (Way back, I noted on a case in a rural village in Jamaica in 1959, a machete attack by someone who snapped.) The most relevant case is Israel, which has had to deal with firearms and with suicide bombing attacks; think of the Airport attack by terrorists acting for the PLO etc in was it 1974 and of course the 1972 Munich Olympics attack, then continue down to today. I suggest a useful discussion would be, what is driving attackers to go postal. But that needs to be parallel-tracked with target hardening. It seems to be emerging that this was in fact a classical soft target. The assumption that someone wants to take hostages and make a big splash is failing, we are dealing with blood lust on whatever motive. In this situation the best time to stop things is before they start fully. That translates to target hardening. KF

  278. 278
    AnimatedDust says:

    JH @275: That’s not debated. They don’t. Why would I debate the obvious? We have a mentally illness, lack of God, me first and f*ck you culture that worships violence. (John Wick anyone?)
    Mainly in the last 40 years or so.

    We reap what we sow.

    Where, might I ask, do you reside?

  279. 279
    kairosfocus says:

    AD, yes and you had years to target harden and prepare tactics for mass killer response since say 1999 at Columbine as a first reference. The use of a sawed down phone pole to breach doors goes to 1920’s cases. And more. KF

  280. 280
    kairosfocus says:

    AD, the relevant point is where I am from, Jamaica, where among other things I lived through much of the 4th gen civil war 1976 – 80. To get an idea, look up Gold Street Massacre; reports at the time indicated someone even brought an old Vickers in a wheel barrow to that one. On top of the ex VN M16’s. Then there was the night I watched JDF helicopters pulling back from above August Town as full auto fire was turned on them again and again by Cuban trained Brigadistas; the night Roy McGann was assassinated. And more, more than I want to remember. KF

  281. 281
    AnimatedDust says:

    Columbine was the seminal wakeup call, but is largely incorrectly labeled. The SRO engaged the shooters within minutes of their arrival on scene, and entry teams were inside very quickly. They offed themselves so quickly because of the imminent police pressure.

    I have been debriefed by the SWAT commander who led the entry.

    That the police waited outside forever is complete fiction.

  282. 282
    AnimatedDust says:

    Off to dinner with friends. Armed, of course, with a spare magazine. Life in America.

    First rule of gunfighting: Bring a gun.

    Sad, but true.

  283. 283
    relatd says:

    AD at 278,

    I don’t understand the appeal of John Wick. I lived through the last 40 years. Those who wanted their “freedom” kept hammering down the door of normalcy. Things were about 50/50 in 1985. Then the “shock jocks” appeared. One interviewed prostitutes mislabeled as ‘porn stars.’ I remember turning on the radio one night and two guys were talking about a sexual encounter. Then “rap” (not) music focusing on purely selfish, violent and disrespect for women themes appeared.

    Put porn and general perversion on the internet and on and on. Lots of illegal drugs out there. Lots of missing fathers. Some men who get women pregnant believe they can just walk away.

    A lot of bad behavior online in general.

    The family is the basic building block of all societies. Damage that and all kinds of negative results occur.

  284. 284
    TimR says:

    It just baffles me that people in this thread use words like “hardening targets” when you are talking about schools. The idea of arming teachers etc. The rest of the world looks on in incomprehension. How did America get to this place? How does it get out of it? I’ve spent a lot of time in the US. We are not such different people (I’m from NZ). Pretty much share all the same values, love of family, kids etc.

    Jerry: “To compare Canada, New Zealand or other western democracies and their completely different ethnic make up is absurd. None of these western countries would last 6 months if the US disappeared. And they know it”.

    what do you mean by this? As I said, I have been to America many times (and to Canada, Australia, Europe). I have a couple of good friends here in NZ who are Americans who have emigrated. We’re pretty similar people in many ways.

  285. 285
    kairosfocus says:

    TimR, the relevant comparison is Israel not places lucky enough to be low threat. We can deal with root causes onward but right now mass killings targetting schools etc and churches etc are a reality. Kid gets chided by Granny over academic non performance, shoots her and goes 1/4 mile it seems to attack an elementary school. He says he is working at a restaurant to buy guns and ammo, buys two guns. My bet is, he had that school in mind for some time. Unfortunately 23 years after Columbine, this school was not ready. Sen Cruz is saying 10 y back his school hardening bill was filibustered. But this is not bills it is you are prone to raids. Late C19 in the little red schoolhouse, older kids carried weapons in case of raids. KF

    PS, the USN guards the seas as once the RN did. English Harbour is about 30 miles from me as I comment, Nelson was based there.

  286. 286
    JHolo says:

    AD: We have a mentally illness, lack of God, me first and f*ck you culture that worships violence. (John Wick anyone?)

    John Wick did very well in Canada, Australia, New Zealand and most of Europe. And I have not seen any data that mental illness is any worse in the US than anywhere else.

    We reap what we sow.

    Apparently more so in the US than anywhere else.

    Where, might I ask, do you reside?

    You might ask.

  287. 287
    JHolo says:

    KF: JH, very different circumstances and you may be surprised to learn of attacks in other places, often with knives etc.

    Your shifting of issues is duly noted.

  288. 288
    kairosfocus says:

    JH, I pointed out that other places have more than you imagine. Something has set nihilistic blood lust loose and that danger has to be addressed. After the first Viking raids, people had to plan how to defend themselves for what 300 years? The best parallel as I noted is Israel. Meanwhile there is now enough on the table to see that this was at first level, policing failure. Target hardening would have made all the difference. KF

  289. 289
    kairosfocus says:

    AD, BTW, I recall a moment when the notorious killer Copper was in a Hall of Residence common room behind the door, watching TV. (And yes students in the room knew who it was.) A patrolman stuck head in the door, saw all seemed okay, stepped out again. Those corners . . . Clearing a room is never easy or safe. KF

  290. 290
    TimR says:

    Kairosfocus, the question is, why is the US not low threat? Why does a US kid in those circumstances you describe, kill his grandmother and then go and kill a classroom full of children? Why does this happen time and time again?

  291. 291
    Silver Asiatic says:

    The Myth That the US Leads the World in Mass Shootings
    https://fee.org/articles/the-myth-that-the-us-leads-the-world-in-mass-shootings/

  292. 292
    Lieutenant Commander Data says:

    JHolo

    KF: JH, very different circumstances and you may be surprised to learn of attacks in other places, often with knives etc.

    Your shifting of issues is duly noted.

    🙂 Very strange , your brain is so perceptive to “detect” a shifting that is not but in the same time your brain can’t detect the most obvious shift of narative that is operated by legacy media.

    Legacy media is a psy-op structure. Many people (including on this forum) don’t talk about reality but about what media(the owners of media) fabricate as narrative of the day and wants people to focus on. . If media would focus 24 hour on abortions and would show videos with dismembered babies again and again and tv crews would be present to transmit live on every single one of the performed abotion that would change the perception on what millions of crimes of innocent babies means compared with the result of a demented that killed 20 people. There is no comparation.

    Remember Russia-hoax and the focus of legacy media every day for years ? Was false and succeded because is a tool for controlling the perception of unaware people (sadly,very large bulk of population). Even today still are people who believe that Russian hoax is real . Same thing with George Floyds , covid19, Hunter Laptop, Ukraine , fabricated “leak” of Supreme Court,etc and the present subject we talk about.

  293. 293
    chuckdarwin says:

    AD/282

    So, AD, you been in a lot of gunfights lately?

  294. 294
    AnimatedDust says:

    Does one decline a seatbelt unless one has been in recent accidents?

  295. 295
    JHolo says:

    KF: JH, I pointed out that other places have more than you imagine.

    Really? Then why didn’t your examples include other developed nations. You know. Canada, Australia, New Zealand, most European countries. Scandinavian countries. Let’s be honest. The US leads the developed nations in mass shootings. By a huge margin. And why is that?

    Let me give you an example. I was in Nashville a few years ago. I went to dinner at a pub. It was a special night at the pub. Open carry night. Those who came in with a gun on their hip received discount beer. Because, we all know, nothing bad has ever come from the combination of alcohol and firearms.

    But you think the problem is that US schools don’t have enough armed guards and barbed wire. Did you ever think that the major problem is the fact that too many think that US schools don’t have enough armed guards and barbed wire?

    My daughter is an elementary school teacher in a big city. No armed guards. No police. No barbed wire. No locked doors. Visitors are expected to check in with the office before entering. Isn’t this what the goal should be? None of this “hardened target” BS.

  296. 296
    OhReally says:

    Those who came in with a gun on their hip received discount beer.

    I think you are making it up.

    The scenario you suggest would cost the bar owner their Tennessee state alcohol license, and the gun owner would lose their carry permit for a minimum of 3 years, plus fines.

  297. 297
    AnimatedDust says:

    You focus too much on semantics. Don’t like hard target? Try ‘common sense security measures.’

  298. 298
    JHolo says:

    AD: You focus too much on semantics.

    I’m sorry. But armed guards and “hardened targets” for schools are not semantics. They are reasons for parents to move to another state or country.

    Don’t like hard target? Try ‘common sense security measures.’

    I prefer actions that don’t require hardened targets and security measures at schools. Like is the case in most western nations.

    Does the right to bare arms really outweigh the right of kids to enjoy a school experience that is safe?

  299. 299
    News says:

    This afternoon, Toronto police shot and killed a man seen carrying a rifle near several schools:

    https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-toronto-police-kill-man-scarborough-school-lockdown/

    If you are looking for helpless hippie colonies to shower with approval, you might best leave Canada out of the search.

    It strikes me that advocates for gun control overlook a simple fact: If most people in a state can have a gun, strict new gun control laws will mainly disarm the law-abiding, leaving them at the mercy of the non-law-abiding.

    It’s different in Canada because, historically, most people who are not sports hunters or farmers, etc., didn’t have guns to begin with. Criminals with illegal weapons are a problem, to be sure, but that’s why having a gun incites suspicion in the police. So if you live in a low crime zone (very usual in Canada), you probably don’t need a gun and it would be just as well not to have one.

    But that’s very different from Texas where lots of people have guns.

    I think Barry is onto something. Armed security guards for schools might prevent these kinds of incidents. At any rate, they could give it a decade-long trial in several states and see.

  300. 300
    Barry Arrington says:

    AnimatedDust

    That the police waited outside forever is complete fiction.

    Whoever told you this does not know what they are talking about.

    Here is a paragraph from the Wiki entry. It is fairly accurate. A federal court correctly ruled that the law enforcement’s delay in entering the building “shocked the conscience.” I was the attorney for the families mentioned in the sentence set out in bold.

    After the massacre, many survivors and relatives of deceased victims filed lawsuits.[130] Under Colorado state law at the time, the maximum a family could receive in a lawsuit against a government agency was $600,000.[268] Most cases against the Jeffco police department and school district were dismissed by the federal court on the grounds of government immunity.[269] The case against the sheriff’s office regarding the death of Dave Sanders was not dismissed due to the police preventing paramedics from going to his aid for hours after they knew the gunmen were dead. The case was settled out of court in August 2002 for $1,500,000.[270]

    In April 2001, the families of more than 30 victims received a $2,538,000 settlement in their case against the families of Harris, Klebold, Manes, and Duran.[271] Under the terms of the settlement, the Harrises and the Klebolds contributed $1,568,000 through their homeowners’ policies, with another $32,000 set aside for future claims; the Manes contributed $720,000, with another $80,000 set aside for future claims; and the Durans contributed $250,000, with an additional $50,000 available for future claims.[271] The family of victim Shoels rejected this settlement, but in June 2003 were ordered by a judge to accept a $366,000 settlement in their $250-million lawsuit against the shooters’ families.[272][273] In August 2003, the families of victims Fleming, Kechter, Rohrbough, Townsend, and Velasquez received undisclosed settlements in a wrongful death suit against the Harrises and Klebolds.[272]

  301. 301
    JHolo says:

    I apologize. I keep trying to compare the US against “peer” nations. But, obviously, the US does not have “peer” nations. The US is in a category all its own. And, obviously, more than happy to be in a category all its own. A category of unprecedented mass shootings, unprecedented school shootings, unprecedented gun violence, where the leading cause of death of children is a bullet. I was obviously naive. I was hoping for a country that was willing to take the steps necessary to make changes. I was obviously wrong.

  302. 302
    es58 says:

    ToJholo : . I was obviously naive. I was hoping for a country that was willing to take the steps necessary to make changes. I was obviously wrong

    Could be coming. If roe is overturned maybe life will be seen to have value again. We can hope. I suspect that’s what so devalued life here in the first place.

  303. 303
    JHolo says:

    Forgive the profanity, but I think this is relevant.

    https://youtu.be/YxItwbVj8LA

  304. 304
    JHolo says:

    es58: Could be coming. If roe is overturned maybe life will be seen to have value again. We can hope. I suspect that’s what so devalued life here in the first place.

    Again, ignoring the the lack of mass shootings in countries where abortion on demand is legal. Blaming Roe V. Wade for all the mass shootings is getting tiresome. You might as well be blaming the consumption of Egg McMuffins.

  305. 305
    kairosfocus says:

    JH,

    First, it is now quite clear that the policing failed here and given Columbine as precedent multi million or worse law suits are in plausible prospect. Accordingly, official statements must be discounted as defensive i/l/o likely legal actions. Set up an after the fact cordon and wait while negotiations failed as badly as would have assuming that hijackers of aircraft just want to fly somewhere else and make political statements on Sept 11, 2001.

    Next, that is made worse by the fact that PARENTS were trying to get or even carry out interventions while up to perhaps 150 police were standing around (standing implying, they saw little tactical threat). This is on tape, I doubt you attended to the clipped reports above.

    Third, the intervention was not what is advisable, it sounds like one or a few officers either ignored control or were from enough of a different jurisdiction that they could act as they saw to be needed. I think it is advisable for at minimum two to try to clear a room with hostiles, as split attention gives precious time to act, reducing pretty serious risk. From DM, the officer had a head graze and was hit in the foot. That means the shooter was likely shooting at the head, and similarly his harness created the impression he was armoured. [I gather kits are as low as US$ 500, a lot less than he seems to have spent on each rifle].

    The signs are, this was long contemplated.

    That is context for the basic point that there is a problem on the table, repeated failure to harden targets, and obviously flawed police action. This is backed by the partisan use of filibuster in 2013 to block a bill that proposed to spend US$ 300 mn on, target hardening. So, we see why there is going to be a predictable subject switching in the media, long since the propaganda arm of the party that blocked action then.

    Turning to your talk point, the reality is that the US is different, and the most obvious comparison is Israel which has had decades of armed attacks on civilians in facilities and homes or in the public. They managed by border control and target hardening. That’s why suicide bombing attacks, gun attacks, car ramming attacks, knife attacks and mob attacks have not continued to be a dreary daily routine.

    Whatever else is to be done, target hardening is obvious and has not been seriously done over the past 23 years. Something is wrong and target hardening does not fit a policy agenda so we need to deconstruct the media subject switching and media narrative. Something pretty misanthropic, anticivilisational and nihilistic is going on and it is going on in places that control the dominant media narrative. That makes whodunit easy as the major US Media are one party, by and large, increasingly uniparty/establishment otherwise.

    The obvious context is the mass slaughter of 63 million of living posterity in the womb over 49 years, backed by indefensible acts under colour of law and by resistance to attempts to stop or reduce it. Currently we see unprecedented breach of Court confidentiality.

    Likely, you did not read what I pointed out above on the policy import of this, growing disaffection. A state that is that nihilistic will alienate a good many people who for cause will see in this and similar acts (refusal to implement reasonable border control or restrain red guards while pouncing on others as insurrectionists on lines of the Reichstag fire incident come to mind) a long train of abuses and usurpations. When such a government fixates on firearms confiscation in a country that exists BECAUSE the ordinary man was armed and rose up April 19 1775 in the face of weapons confiscation — think Minute men here — then many will draw, for cause, further inference to a long train of abuses and usurpations.

    BTW, how many other countries exist BECAUSE ordinary people were armed and experienced in use of firearms in military style contexts? My guess is just one, Israel. Which has as a further shaping event the Holocaust including the Warsaw and Auschwitz uprisings. Maybe, we can add to a limited extent Switzerland. I suppose the treaties that settled the wars with the Maori could count to some degree, and maybe similar treaties with the Maroons of Jamaica, who BTW were called out as auxiliaries in 1865.

    The message is, the US is pretty unique, and firearms confiscation will have a very different significance there.

    I note, that an obvious part of the reason why there are now something like 400 million guns with trillions of rounds in the hands of perhaps 100 million is the sending of a message to the would be confiscators. Every time confiscation is pushed, purchases surge. Message, don’t go there.

    You do have a gun-using violence problem and a bigger gun using suicide problem. But that problem simply does not match what would be the case were the average gun owner lawless and aggressive. Indeed, there is evidence that heaviest gun ownership is not correlated with heaviest violence.

    In addition, there is a mass killings in soft target zones problem. One that most often involves guns but also involves edged weapons, use of vehicles to mow people down [just last Christmas, and media were suspiciously silent], and bombs.

    Why such nihilistic behaviour in what amounts to a movement?

    For one, there are enough alienated nihilistic people willing to take out rage in this way. For two, lawsuits etc blocked institutionalisation of the violent insane, which is also connected to homelessness issues. For three there is a correlation to use of psychoactive drugs for ADHD especially ritalin. In this context, drug control of school discipline problems is a suppressed issue. Do not overlook the potential implications of use of marijuana in a day where average THC concentration has moved from 3 to 9 percent with significant cases 20+ percent up to 45%. Marijuana and hashish have been connected to berserker style and to suicidal attacks for what, a thousand years. Assassin is connected to hashish, historically. And more.

    We also should note that gangster style mass shootings do not receive similar media emphasis.

    Further to all this, at a time when opiod smuggling and terrorist or gang infiltration are obvious threats, there has been a big media push to break down enforcement of border security. This in a context where de facto civil war with copious use of actual assault rifles [selective fire, intermediate cartridge, 20 – 30+ round magazines] is just across the key border.

    Add to that, a state of 4th gen civil war emergent since 2016 – 17. Complete with media and state backed red guard mobs.

    Under these circumstances with proved misanthropic nihilistic radicals dominating government, a major gun confiscation and criminalisation push would predictably be taken as causus belli. It would be April 19, 1775 again.

    So, there is a big difference.

    And, the USN is guardian of global trade and order, successor to the RN. Chaos in the US would open horrific geostrategic opportunities. Geostrategic vultures, rest assured, know this. It is no coincidence that the Ukraine push is at this time, or that China is pushing up the pressure on Taiwan. As for Iran.

    So, I suggest that policy rethinking is advisable.

    The obvious thing to do is target hardening, so why is there so much resistance? Gun confiscation would lead to chaos so why is there repeated push on that point as though there is no recognition that a better solution is de escalation leading to a more reasonable regulatory stance? And much more.

    I think it would be advisable to allow facts to be clarified and confirmed on t5his case then go after the low hanging fruit. Beyond, reasonable de escalation of the US 4th gen civil war might bring the US to sounder ground.

    KF

  306. 306
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: More emerges . . .

    Twitter:

    Saagar Enjeti
    @esaagar
    A Uvalde mother was PLACED IN HANDCUFFS by Federal Marshalls on scene for attempting to enter the school to get her child. Another man was tased for trying to get his kid off a bus. All while Salvador Ramos was alive inside killing kids https://wsj.com/articles/uvalde-residents-voice-frustration-over-shooting-response-11653588161?mod=panda_wsj_author_alert

    WSJ:

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/uvalde-residents-voice-frustration-over-shooting-response-11653588161

    Uvalde Shooter Fired Outside School for 12 Minutes Before Entering
    Local residents express anger and frustration as police detail new timeline of mass shooting

    [paywall follows]

    WND

    https://www.wnd.com/2022/05/police-cuffed-pepper-sprayed-parents-trying-rescue-children/

    Police cuffed and pepper-sprayed parents trying to rescue children
    ‘They didn’t do that to the shooter, but they did that to us’
    WND News Services By WND News Services
    Published May 26, 2022 at 5:31pm

    Law enforcement officers pepper-sprayed and handcuffed parents who tried to enter Robb Elementary School to retrieve their children during a Monday mass shooting, a mother who was at the scene told The Wall Street Journal.

    Angeli Rose Gomez drove 40 miles to the school, where her children are in second and third grade, upon hearing about the shooting and found police standing outside the building, according to the WSJ. Gomez and other parents urged the officers to enter the school with increasing intensity until authorities began detaining them.

    “They were just standing outside the fence. They weren’t going in there or running anywhere,” she told the WSJ.

    Police tackled a father to the ground and used pepper spray on another man, Gomez told the WSJ. Federal marshals handcuffed Gomez and told her she was being arrested after she demanded they go into the building, but she had police officers she knew convince the marshals to remove the cuffs, she told the WSJ.

    Gomez eventually ran into the school, got her two kids and sprinted away, according to the WSJ. After the shooting ended, she saw police use a taser on a father approaching a bus to retrieve his child.

    “They didn’t do that to the shooter, but they did that to us. That’s how it felt,” Gomez told the WSJ.

    Law enforcement officers engaged the gunman as he entered the classroom, but the shooter barricaded himself inside for between 30 and 60 minutes, during which time he shot and killed 19 students and two teachers, according to multiple sources. The police did not breach the classroom until about an hour after the shooter entered, when they got a staff member to unlock the door with a key, according to the Associated Press.

    Policing failure, trending tragic fiasco.

    KF

  307. 307
  308. 308
    Bob O'H says:

    Barry’s argument in the OP is that the solution to gunmen attacking schools is to arm teachers. But here we had a situation where armed police did not want to go into the school. So you’re saying that the correct response to situations that are too dangerous for the police is to have teachers go into them? Don’t you think it might be better to look for an alternative approach?

  309. 309
    Barry Arrington says:

    Bob at 308.
    You don’t seem to understand my proposal at all. I am not calling for school staff to act as police so that they can run in and defend someone else who is being attacked. I am calling for school staff to be armed so they will have the means to defend themselves and the children in their care when they are being attacked. It seems to me the difference is obvious. No one is calling on them to run into a burning building. I am asking for them to be given the tools to get out of the burning building they are already in.

    And your suggestion that it was “too dangerous” for the police to respond is risible. Of course, it was dangerous, but it was not too dangerous to go in. We’ve known since Columbine that the only acceptable response to an active shooter scenario is to charge in at once. The fact that the cops were too cowardly or stupid to do so (If that were the case. I do not know. The facts are still being developed.) does not change that.

  310. 310
    kairosfocus says:

    BO’H, notice that in 32 he endorsed 30 above. He has in mind a bigger picture similar to what Israel did. KF

  311. 311
    kairosfocus says:

    BA, likely, they were under orders to do cordon off and negotiate. Given prospective lawsuits, they seem to be in info lockdown mode. And as a world authority on Columbine, your comment, “We’ve known since Columbine that the only acceptable response to an active shooter scenario is to charge in at once” carries serious weight. Why were the cops operating under an outdated paradigm, when PARENTS were volunteering or even attempting to go in? KF

  312. 312
    Lieutenant Commander Data says:

    Police cuffed and pepper-sprayed parents trying to rescue children
    ‘They didn’t do that to the shooter, but they did that to us’

    What?Looks like a “coordination” for more victims ? Who remember police stand down orders when Antifa attacked conservatives?

    PS:I’ve heard there are drugs that make you feel invincible and don’t have fear anymore . What could happen if you drug a person then give him a gun ?

  313. 313
    chuckdarwin says:

    AD/294

    The old seatbelt analogy, huh? Sounds like a silly NRA talking point to me….

  314. 314
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: Found, a May 26 officially given timeline:

    https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/paula-bolyard/2022/05/26/timeline-shifts-again-in-uvalde-school-shooting-n1601275

    Victor Escalon, South Texas regional director of the Department of Public Safety, told reporters that “there’s a lot of information, a lot of moving parts” to the investigation. “We want to know what happened, recreate the scene. That takes days, that takes hours, that takes time.”

    He noted that Texas Rangers are heading the investigation into the shooting, assisted by ATF, FBI, CBP, and the Uvalde County District Attorney’s Office.

    Here’s the latest account of events from Texas authorities (all times Central).

    11:01 am: Ramos calls a girl in Germany he had met online and tells her he loves her.

    11:21 am: Twenty minutes later, he texts the teen girl, saying that he had shot his grandmother and plans to “shoot up a(n) elementary school.” Police say Ramos shot his grandmother in the face. She is in serious condition at a San Antonio hospital.

    11:28 am: Law-enforcement officials receive the first 911 call reporting a crash involving what was later identified as Ramos’ vehicle. Initially, officials had said they received a report of a crashed vehicle and a man in body armor carrying a rifle eight minutes earlier, at 11:20 a.m.

    Ramos exits the passenger side of the car, heads in the direction of a funeral home across the street, and begins firing shots at people in the parking lot there. No one was injured in that shooting.

    Ramos then heads to Robb Elementary School and hops the fence adjacent to the west entrance.

    11:40 am: Ramos enters the school unimpeded and begins firing. “Numerous rounds are discharged at the school,” said Escalon.

    Steve McCraw, the Texas director of public safety, claimed on Wednesday that an armed school security officer “encountered” Ramos but did not exchange gunfire with him. He said at the time that the officer followed Ramos into the school and “rounds were exchanged.” According to Escalon, that information was “not accurate.” He said that, based on video obtained by officials, the shooter “walked in unobstructed, initially” and fired upward of 25 rounds when he first entered the building.

    For the next few minutes, Ramos walks the halls of the school and enters an adjoining classroom connected by open doors. He barricades himself in the rooms with children and two teachers. It’s not known how Ramos managed to barricade himself in the classroom. “We’re still trying to establish if there was any type of locking mechanism on the doorway from inside the classroom,” Escalon said.

    11:43 am: Three minutes later, Robb Elementary School announces it is going on lockdown, and Uvalde Police post a note on its Facebook page advising people to avoid the area of the school.

    11:44 am: Four minutes after Ramos entered the building, law enforcement officials arrive at the school and make entry. “They hear gunfire, they take rounds, they move back to get cover, and during that time they approach the place where the suspect is at,” said Escalon. “According to the information I have [Ramos] went in at 11:40, he walked approximately 20 feet, 30 feet. He makes a right. He walks through the hallway, he makes a right, walks another 20 feet, turns left into a schoolroom, into a classroom that has doors open in the middle.”

    “Officers are there, the initial officers that received gunfire,” he explained. “They don’t make entry initially because of the gunfire they’re receiving, but we have officers calling for additional resources, anybody that’s in the initial area: tactical teams, we need equipment, we need specialty equipment, we need body armor. We need precision riflemen [and] negotiators. So during this time that they’re making those calls to bring in help—to solve this problem and stop it immediately—they’re also evacuating personnel. When I say personnel, students, teachers. There’s a lot going on. A complex situation.”

    During this time, according to Escalon, negotiators were trying to reach the shooter. “During negotiations, there wasn’t much gunfire other than trying to keep the officers at bay.” Asked by reporters whether negotiators were able to make contact with Ramos, Escalon said, “right now, according to information, he did not respond.”

    Between the time Ramos entered the building and the moment he was shot, police “were taking gunfire, [conducting] negotiations, and developing a team to make entry to stop him.”

    He said he could not confirm reports that parents waiting outside the police perimeter were pleading with officers to go in and rescue their children.

    12:17 pm: Uvalde Consolidated Independent School District posts messages on Facebook and Twitter alerting the community to the active-shooter situation playing out at the school.

    Around 12:35 pm: “Approximately an hour later, U.S. Border tactical teams arrive. They make entry, shoot and kill the suspect,” Escalon said. “But you also had a Uvalde County deputy and Uvalde Police Department that made entry and killed the suspect. Immediately, immediately, numerous officers now charge into a rescue operation. How do we save these children? Some made it out. We don’t have a hard number yet, but that was the goal.”

    1:06 pm: Nearly two hours after the initial call to police, the Uvalde Police Department posted on its Facebook page that the shooter was “in custody.”

    Policing failure for the post-Columbine world.

    Why didn’t the school go into lockdown once shots were fired in the vicinity? If cops struggled to get through doors the shooter should have had more problems.

    Likewise, SWAT teams should have been underway as soon as the school was on lockdown and gave alert.

    Target hardening issues jump out at us.

    KF

  315. 315
    kairosfocus says:

    LCD,

    rum is enough much less a strong dose of ganja as we call it where I come from.

    CD,

    predictable, needlessly polarising and useless in reply to a SWAT officer. BTW NRA is a pool of relevant expertise and as of right are stakeholders.

    KF

  316. 316
    chuckdarwin says:

    Get real, KF. The NRA is a cesspool of corruption and lobbying overreach…… (https://www.amazon.com/Inside-NRA-Tell-All-Corruption-Political/dp/1538737256)

  317. 317
    ET says:

    Bob O’H:

    So you’re saying that the correct response to situations that are too dangerous for the police is to have teachers go into them?

    Wow. The teachers are already in, duh. The bad people are entering their classrooms. Then the teachers shoot the bad people.

  318. 318
    kairosfocus says:

    CD, your blanket smears are duly noted, it is a fact that in their membership one will find a pool of highly qualified expertise on relevant topics. Your trollish blanket hostility leading to dismissal of inconvenient fact is duly noted, yet again. KF

  319. 319
    kairosfocus says:

    ET, why didn’t the teachers start by locking the doors once shooting was diagonally across the street, why was there an unlocked back door? (Mind you, I remember being upstairs in a Sunday School class only to be shocked to see on the street just below, one man chasing another and shooting at him.) KF

  320. 320
    Lieutenant Commander Data says:

    Chuckdarwin
    Get real, KF. The NRA is a cesspool of corruption and lobbying overreach……

    I think you are very confused . Darwin “survival of the fittest” supersede any morality .Talk about the survival of survivors and let morality to theology.

  321. 321
    ET says:

    Yes, someone dropped the ball. Maybe people became complacent. And there are too many conflicting stories coming out.

  322. 322
    Barry Arrington says:

    KF
    “BA, likely, they were under orders to do cordon off and negotiate.”
    Perhaps. And if that order were given, whoever gave it should be relieved of command. If anything was learned at Columbine it was “set up a perimeter and negotiate” is the ultimate failed strategy.

  323. 323
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: Let me simply note for record from IBD:

    https://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/sorry-despite-gun-control-advocates-claims-u-s-isnt-the-worst-country-for-mass-shootings/

    Sorry, Despite Gun-Control Advocates’ Claims, U.S. Isn’t The Worst Country For Mass Shootings

    06:35 PM ET 02/20/2018

    Gun Deaths: It’s become commonplace to hear after a U.S. shooting tragedy that, when it comes to guns, America is just more violent than other countries, especially those in Europe, where many countries have stiff gun control laws. It’s a progressive shibboleth, but even some conservatives agree. The only problem is, it’s not true.

    Yes, America does have a lot of gun violence. But more than other countries, especially in Europe?

    To listen to America’s politicians, you’d think that was the case.

    President Obama talked about it a lot, including in June of 2015, after a gunman shot nine people in a Charleston, North Carolina church: “Let’s be clear: At some point, we as a country will have to reckon with the fact that this type of mass violence does not happen in other advanced countries,” Obama said.

    Days later, Sen. Harry Reid echoed his comments. “The United States is the only advanced country where this kind of mass violence occurs,” he said.

    More recently, the tragic, preventable slaying of 17 students by accused gunman Nikolas Cruz elicited similar sentiments from Sen. Chris Murphy of Connecticut, speaking in the Senate just last Thursday: “This happens nowhere else other than the United States of America.”

    Powerful remarks, and no doubt heartfelt. But a study of global mass-shooting incidents from 2009 to 2015 by the Crime Prevention Research Center, headed by economist John Lott, shows the U.S. doesn’t lead the world in mass shootings. In fact, it doesn’t even make the top 10, when measured by death rate per million population from mass public shootings.

    So who’s tops? Surprisingly, Norway is, with an outlier mass shooting death rate of 1.888 per million (high no doubt because of the rifle assault by political extremist Anders Brevik that claimed 77 lives in 2011). No. 2 is Serbia, at just 0.381, followed by France at 0.347, Macedonia at 0.337, and Albania at 0.206. Slovakia, Finland, Belgium, and Czech Republic all follow. Then comes the U.S., at No. 11, with a death rate of 0.089.

    That’s not all. There were also 27% more casualties from 2009 to 2015 per mass shooting incident in the European Union than in the U.S.

    “There were 16 cases where at least 15 people were killed,” the study said. “Out of those cases, four were in the United States, two in Germany, France, and the United Kingdom.”

    “But the U.S. has a population four times greater than Germany’s and five times the U.K.’s, so on a per-capita basis the U.S. ranks low in comparison — actually, those two countries would have had a frequency of attacks 1.96 (Germany) and 2.46 (UK) times higher.”

    Yes, the U.S. rate is still high, and nothing to be proud of. But it’s not the highest in the developed world. Not by a long shot.

    They continue:

    Yet, some today propose banning rifles, in particular AR-15s, because they’ve been used in a number of mass killings. It’s important to note however that, according to FBI crime data cited this week by the Daily Caller, deaths by knives in the U.S. outnumber deaths by rifles by five to 1: In 2016, 1,604 people were killed by knives and other cutting instruments, while 374 were killed by rifles.

    So is it not fair to ask: If we’re banning rifles, why not knives, too?

    The point is, guns aren’t the problem; deranged killers that grow up in broken families often without positive male role models in their lives are the problem. So are political and religious extremists, in particular Islamists. If these people didn’t have guns, they would find some other means to do the job.

    Bombs are illegal in both the U.S. and Europe. Yet Europe loses far more people to bombings than the U.S. Doesn’t that make them more violent?

    Sobering.

    Next, a battle of studies:

    https://fee.org/articles/the-myth-that-the-us-leads-the-world-in-mass-shootings/

    how did the narrative that the US leads the world in mass shootings become the conventional wisdom? The myth, it turns out, stems from University of Alabama associate professor Adam Lankford.

    Lankford’s name pops up in a montage of media reports which cite his research as evidence that America leads the world in mass shootings. The violence, Lankford said, stems from the high rate of gun ownership in America.

    “The difference between us and other countries, [which] explains why we have more of these attackers, was the firearm ownership rate,” Lankford said. “In other words: firearms per capita. We have almost double the firearm ownership rate of any other country.”

    Lankford’s findings show that there were 90 mass public shooters in America since 1966, the most in the world, which had a total of 202. But Lott, using Lankford’s definition of a mass shooting—“four or more people killed”—found more than 3,000 such shootings, John Stossel recently reported . . .

    Then, there are some weak argument correctives: https://www.maciverinstitute.com/2021/04/debunking-every-major-myth-about-mass-shootings-in-america/

    Let’s cite one:

    Myth 2: Mass shootings happen all the time in America

    As a result of this, the public is led to believe that random incidents of mass murder happen all the time in America. So far in 2021, the Gun Violence Archive has recorded 156 incidents that it defines as “mass shootings.”

    Just 12, though, meet the FBI’s definition of a “mass murder.” At least seven of them were domestic violence incidents, and just five are included in the Washington Post database as traditional “mass killing” incidents.

    In 70 of the Gun Violence Archive’s 156 mass shootings, a full 45%, no one was killed. In 118 of them (76%), either no one or one person was killed. Just three percent (five out of 156) meet the commonly understood definition of a “mass killing.”

    The Gun Violence Archive’s database is valuable as a tool for statistical analysis, but when politicians or members of the media cite it to make the point that “mass shootings happen every day in America,” they confuse the public into believing that the overwhelming majority of these incidents are not domestic violence or gang-related shootouts that kill or injure innocent bystanders as well as the intended targets.

    In reality, most are. This is not to say that any of them are in any way acceptable, but it is simply not true to suggest that one might die simply by going to the mall. Researchers in 2015 examined each one of the 358 mass shooting incidents in the Gun Violence Archive’s database that year and found that two-thirds of them were either gang-related or resulted from arguments between groups of people—many of whom were drunk or high.

    Another 11% of the mass shooting incidents were domestic violence-related, resulting in a full 31% of all deaths in mass shootings that year. A substantial number of the remaining 24% of mass shooting incidents were robbery-related or committed in the commission of some other crime in high-crime areas of major or mid-sized cities. A staggering 90% of all mass shootings occurred in areas with higher-than-average poverty rates.

    So, we have some points to factor in.

    KF

  324. 324
    kairosfocus says:

    BA, was it actually learned, taken to heart and mainstreamed — made a routine part of doctrine, training, decision making, action? KF

  325. 325
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: A further official claim:

    https://www.breitbart.com/border/2022/05/26/exclusive-police-initially-lacked-ballistic-shield-needed-to-reach-barricaded-texas-school-shooter/

    Multiple law enforcement sources revealed to Breitbart Texas that part of the delay in stopping the barricaded elementary school shooter hinged on a deadly mix of the shooter’s defensive tactics and the lack of needed gear. Specifically, officers lacked the ballistic shield needed to enter the classroom with the barricaded shooter. Attempting to breach the door without a ballistic shield would have resulted in certain death for the officers which could have provided the shooter with the officers’ weapons and ammunition. There is also the possibility that the shooter could have taken police communications gear off of the officers’ bodies, thereby giving the shooter the ability to listen to police movement and plans.

    A Border Patrol source with knowledge of the methods used by the hastily formed team of law enforcement officers to engage the suspect described the difficulty faced by the officers. The source, with decades of prior experience on the Border Patrol’s elite BORTAC team, says the situation became much more difficult to resolve once the shooter barricaded himself in the classroom . . .

    Immediately, why were the doors not locked once shooting began across the street? Why was there not adequate protection at entry?

    Why didn’t teachers lock the same class doors? And, an armed teacher backing up the same door would have posed the same challenge to the shooter.

    Next, we see:

    [a] source, not authorized to speak to the media, told Breitbart Texas a barricaded subject is the most difficult tactical situation to resolve. In this case, the source says the shooter most likely planned the attack days or weeks in advance, perhaps prior to the purchase of two AR-15 style rifles and the ammunition he carried onto the school grounds.

    According to the source, officers at the scene who had been trained in advanced tactical procedures located a level IV ballistic shield. This tool allowed them to approach the shooter without immediately being killed. A United States Marshal Service employee acquired the necessary ballistic shield that ultimately allowed the quickly formed tactical team to enter the building and reach the barricaded shooter.

    Even with the shield, as reported by Breitbart Texas, one of the Border Patrol agents who rushed the shooter still suffered a grazing gunshot wound to the head. The law enforcement team did not wait for personal protective equipment before acting.

    Another Border Patrol agent was also on the makeshift tactical team and fired the shots believed to have stopped the suspect, the source confirmed.

    “If the subject can effectively take out an officer, he gains one more weapon, more loaded magazines, and law enforcement communications are instantly compromised allowing the suspect to know what the next plan of attack is,” the source explained.

    Breitbart Texas spoke to a local law enforcement official who also says small-town police departments lack access to this equipment due to funding issues. The official says he is dismayed at the false premise that officers on the scene were afraid to enter.

    The official, speaking on the condition of anonymity due to the ongoing investigation, told Breitbart Texas one officer poised at the window of the classroom could not gain access and ultimately lost his child who was inside the room.

    Aha, window confirmed.

    So, why not a two point simultaneous entry guided by surveillance?

    Led by flash bangs or smoke and a heavy battering ram?

    Maybe, with a vehicle to effect the window breach in coordination with the doorway, so the assault has two rapid ingress streams of effectives following on noise, flash, smoke?

    (Has there always been a Level IV shield tactical requirement? I doubt it. And why wasn’t one within a 30 minute helicopter delivery range? It seems there was tardiness and the OODA loop was compromised by surprise.)

    Was there no sniping opportunity?

    As for, oh you assault and lose an officer he gets more stuff, Lanchester’s n-square law obtains. Relative combat power goes as the square of comparable firepower units, leading to accelerating disproportionate attrition rates.

    In short, overwhelm and press home under these circumstances.

    The official story still does not add up.

    KF

  326. 326
    asauber says:

    “The official story still does not add up.”

    KF,

    I agree. I’m still having trouble digesting the fact that a school facility with a security fence all the way around it left a door to the outside unlocked. That kind of failure really makes the whole security setup symbolic, instead of effective. I know this caught everyone by surprise, but this was an enabled worst case scenario.

    Andrew

  327. 327
    jerry says:

    Again I repeat.

    The violence/homicide rates are very skewed in the US. Most of the gun ownership is in low violence areas.

    So if the US is violence prone and due to guns, why these discrepancies?

    Another repeat: this debate has nothing to do with people being killed by guns.

    For those not US citizens, we have a lot of Monday Morning Quarterbacking going on.

  328. 328
    Bob O'H says:

    Barry, isn’t that a distinction without a difference? You’re still recommending that the solution to mass shootings at schools is to have teachers engage the shooters. Wouldn’t it be better to try to reduce the number of shootings, and also make it harder for people to legally obtain weapons that are so powerful they scare the police?

    Also – you still haven’t provided any evidence to back up your assertion that “no gun control law can eliminate all or even a small fraction of those guns”.

  329. 329
    ET says:

    Police have powerful weapons too, Bob. They have body amour and long, protective shields.

    Do tell how gun control laws would eliminate all or even a small fraction of those guns? Buying back guns has worked to a limited extent. But the bad guys don’t have their guns registered.

    Again, obviously someone dropped the ball in Texas. But Texas is to blame for having lame gun laws. There isn’t any way the shooter could have bought the guns had he lived in Massachusetts.

  330. 330
    Bob O'H says:

    yes, ET., and even the police didn’t want to go up against the shooter. A teacher generally doesn’t wear body armour to school, but Barry wants to encourage them to engage shooters by giving them guns.

    Do tell how gun control laws would eliminate all or even a small fraction of those guns?

    I think you made the point in your very next paragraph:

    Again, obviously someone dropped the ball in Texas. But Texas is to blame for having lame gun laws. There isn’t any way the shooter could have bought the guns had he lived in Massachusetts.

    They stop people buying new guns. As you note, buy back schemes also work, and a “limited extent” would mean, I think, a “small fraction”. But there can also be indirect cultural effects: these sorts of laws, plus laws about how guns should be stored and carried, can signal what is expected of people. If the social norm is to not carry guns around, they won’t be carried around by many people. Changing social norms won’t be easy or quick, of course, but it can be done.

  331. 331
    asauber says:

    Now I’m reading that the shooter may have been previously arrested.

    Added: And then walked back.

    Andrew

  332. 332
    relatd says:

    I see that the experts here have figured everything out. Alert Homeland Security 🙂 Tell them to use Wikipedia more often. It’s better than real, actual investigation. 🙂

  333. 333
    ET says:

    Yes, Bob, the police were the problem. People in MA buy new guns all of the time.

    Laws do NOT stop bad people from doing bad things.

  334. 334
    relatd says:

    “People in MA buy new guns all of the time.”

    Their old guns wore out?

  335. 335
    Silver Asiatic says:

    Tucker Carlson gave some details on the politics of the situation.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ui8wgo3iI18

    Several politicians and media personalities are putting almost all the emphasis on the NRA, believing that if they are stopped or curtailed, that will solve the problem of violence. But violence and crime has been increasing in America since Covid restrictions were in place. It’s not just gun violence, but theft and other assaults. Also suicides among children are on the rise.

    The gun lobby. Please.
    The NRA declared bankruptcy last year.
    The NRA is a husk.
    In 2021 for example, the tech companies spent more than $70 million lobbying congress.
    Big pharma spent 82 million lobbying congress in the first quarter of 2021 alone.
    The NRA spent just 2.2 million total lobbying in all of 2020, a presidential election year.
    Spare us. Whatever the problem is, it’s not the gun lobby.
    They are not the reason those children were murdered yesterday.

  336. 336
    Silver Asiatic says:

    Sensible gun laws in Texas would have helped or maybe prevented the tragedy.

  337. 337
    Silver Asiatic says:

    Good to see Denyse @299 with the Canadian perspective.
    Guns were for hunters and also for protecting one’s property when one was in a wilderness area.
    Good or bad, there was a big need for guns when native tribes would attack settlers. But bears and mountain lions and wolves were also a problem to deal with.

  338. 338
    relatd says:

    SA at 336,

    Are you in the U.S.? Have you passed your suggestions about gun laws on to say, Homeland Security?

  339. 339
    Lieutenant Commander Data says:

    Bob O’Hara
    try to reduce the number of shootings

    Wait.What? I thought you really believe in survival of the fittest. Do you believe in darwin or not?
    I know you suspend darwinism idiocy for a while because now it’s time to became Jesus and tell us what morality is.

  340. 340
    kairosfocus says:

    Posturing. There is enough evidence searched out and clipped here to show this is a policing failure first. With that level of policing, try gun confiscation and see why people will infer you want them to be helpless victims. I have already drawn out enough on the dynamics at work .

    PS, I remember a map with the WW1 Western front trench superposed on Texas, it didn’t even span the state.

  341. 341
    kairosfocus says:

    SA it would simply have been a car mowing down or bombing incident instead. Kindly see 323 above on rankings of mass incidents and 307 for school incidents, things are not as the media commonly portray. Strength of gun laws is not a driving variable. It is obvious problems are society specific. KF

  342. 342
    relatd says:

    KF at 341,

    “society specific”? That wasn’t very… uh, specific. Have you ever tried to construct a bomb?

    I know. Just screen out all the bad/evil people when they try to get a gun permit.

  343. 343
    JHolo says:

    Most teachers are paid less than the minimum living wage. They have highly stressful jobs. One in five teachers are the victims of violence in the school. And people here want them to be given guns?

  344. 344
    relatd says:

    This is Robert Cummings from the BBC. With me today is the Governor of Texas. Good afternoon, Mister Governor.

    “Good afternoon, Robert.”

    You’ve read all of the comments here. What are your thoughts?

    “We know all this.”

    I’m sure you’re aware sir, that people want action. What can you tell them?

    “I’m tellin’ them we’re taking this very seriously and will do whatever we can.”

    Thank you, Mister Governor. This is Robert Cummings from the BBC.

    * Robert Cummings is not an actual person.

  345. 345
    jerry says:

    Most teachers are paid less than the minimum living wage

    One of the more stupid comments made here.

  346. 346
    ET says:

    Homeland Security doesn’t write gun laws. Each State is responsible for their own gun laws. In this case Texas was irresponsible.

  347. 347
    relatd says:

    Then contact the government of Texas and tell them.

    Does anyone here think that posting ‘the solution to everything’ on an obscure internet forum will actually result in positive action?

  348. 348
    ET says:

    It was complacency. They have security video of a teacher propping open the rear door, right around 11:30.

  349. 349
    JHolo says:

    Jerry: One of the more stupid comments made here.

    If you have any evidence that most teachers don’t earn less that the minimum liveable wage, let’s hear it. Otherwise, your insipid comments just distract from any meaningful discussion.

  350. 350
    kairosfocus says:

    Relatd, some were already outlined. KF

  351. 351
    relatd says:

    KF at 350,

    And whatever was already outlined has accomplished what exactly?

  352. 352
    kairosfocus says:

    JH, you are off on another tangent, but just how do you define a livable wage? I am pretty sure it is not minimum wage. And for a job that is 2k hr/yr annual salary is hourly x 2k. $ 10/hr is $ 20k/y, etc. KF

  353. 353
    kairosfocus says:

    Relatd, there have been summaries on culturally embedded factors that do seem to correlate with violence in society. KF

  354. 354
    kairosfocus says:

    ET, it looks like, there is need for a board with door status and perhaps central emergency lock. I wonder how that teacher feels. KF

  355. 355
    JHolo says:

    ET: It was complacency. They have security video of a teacher propping open the rear door, right around 11:30.

    Throwing a teacher under the bus isn’t going to solve the problem. Neither is hardening soft targets and arming teachers. Effectively hardening soft targets and providing armed guards is very costly. All you do by this tactic is provide protection to those who can afford it. There will always be soft targets. Instead of mass shootings being an equal opportunity killer, these tactics will limit those killed by mass shootings to the low income and other marginalized groups.

    Following a single bombing and 168 dead, restrictions were placed on the storage and sale of ammonium nitrate fertilizer. But following the 252nd mass shooting and 308th death, just this year, gun control is a forbidden topic.

  356. 356
    relatd says:

    KF at 353.

    “culturally embedded factors” Which tells anyone what? And which solves the problem how?

  357. 357
    relatd says:

    JH at 355,

    “gun control is a forbidden topic.” Where, exactly, is this happening? Certainly not here.

  358. 358
    asauber says:

    “Effectively hardening soft targets and providing armed guards is very costly.”

    I would think protecting the lives of children is worth the cost, especially when Big Gov’t flushes Big Money down the toilet for pretty much any stupid reason.

    Andrew

  359. 359
    kairosfocus says:

    JH, Israel managed to do it. You already know the US govt’s track record of nihilism, leading to growing disaffection. The result of yet another power grab will speak for itself. But a lot of other places will pay a price for chaos in the US. KF

  360. 360
    asauber says:

    “All you do by this tactic is provide protection to those who can afford it.”

    Keeping locking doors locked according to written policy doesn’t cost anything.

    Andrew

  361. 361
    relatd says:

    Use the military as an example. A guard post at the parking lot. A fence surrounding the property topped with barbed wire. Security cameras that sweep the grounds on all sides, including blind spots. Additional guard posts at all entrances and exits. Internal security.

    Deploy the National Guard if need be. Increase Federal, State and local patrols at all schools.

  362. 362
  363. 363
    relatd says:

    KF at 362,

    Nothing of value. Nothing. Talk is cheap and in this case, worthless.

  364. 364
    asauber says:

    “The bottom line is that officer was not on scene, not on campus, but had heard the 911 call about the man with a gun, drove immediately to the area, sped to what he thought was the man with the gun, to the back of the school, to what turned out to be a teacher and not the suspect,”

    He didn’t tell her to close the door? And what did he do after that? Go to lunch?

    Andrew

  365. 365
    relatd says:

    Andrew at 364,

    And how does that help anyone? And after every single detail is made public, how will that change anything? I’d like to point out that posting here will not affect those with the ability to change things – improve things.

  366. 366
    asauber says:

    “And how does that help anyone?”

    Relatd,

    From failures we learn what not to do and what to do instead. And it’s going to take all the individuals on the ground to make any security effective. So everybody who wants to keep their schools, etc, safer, not just the powerful, needs to know everything about what happened. The attitude that you can just have someone else take care of you is true stupidity.

    Andrew

  367. 367
    relatd says:

    Andrew,

    You’re not making sense. This has happened before. And today, there are no new, new ideas. Do you understand? The people who can make things happen need to make things happen. Chatter on the internet, here, does not make things happen.

  368. 368
    asauber says:

    “You’re not making sense. This has happened before. And today, there are no new, new ideas. Do you understand?”

    Relatd,

    I think you don’t understand. People are walking points of failure. They will never be perfectly executing robots. All you can do is the best you can to teach them. Its a continual process. I’m trying to continue the process. New ideas fail. People fail. Trying to minimize the failures of people is part of successful security. People have to be continuously reminded to keep the doors closed and locked.

    Andrew

  369. 369
    kairosfocus says:

    Relatd, do you remember what was happening to Israel? Target hardening and border control worked. This was a case of cumulative failures to follow known sound steps. In particular, it was a policing failure. For just one aspect, 23 years ago, cordon off and negotiate was a known failure once nihilistic mass shooters and bombers and car mowers etc came on the scene, but here we see it again. KF

  370. 370
    relatd says:

    Andrew at 368,

    Will you be there to tell them to lock the doors? Have you ever been in the military? Men are trained to be perfectly executing robots. I don’t think you are continuing anything. Not here. Will you go out to train people now? I say this to point out that talk is talk. It is not action.

  371. 371
    asauber says:

    “Will you be there to tell them to lock the doors? Have you ever been in the military? Men are trained to be perfectly executing robots.”

    Relatd,

    In my locality I can. If I’m a voice crying in the desert, so be it. I have not been in the military. Schools aren’t military. They are teachers trying to deal with lots of kids. Everyone needs constant reminders about everything.

    Andrew

  372. 372
    ET says:

    JHolo:

    Throwing a teacher under the bus isn’t going to solve the problem.

    Hey loser, what I said was a FACT. A teacher propped open the door. FACT. The gunman then had easy access to the school.

    And shut up about gun control. It is a PEOPLE problem, not a gun problem.

  373. 373
    asauber says:

    “It is a PEOPLE problem”

    ET,

    You are right. On the shooter side and on the security side.

    Andrew

  374. 374
    relatd says:

    Talk is not action. More talk does not equal any action.

  375. 375
    asauber says:

    “Talk is not action. More talk does not equal any action.”

    Relatd,

    We needed more talking. Just for starters, if the officer assigned to the school would have talked to the teacher and told her to close and lock the door, things may have turned out better.

    Andrew

  376. 376
    kairosfocus says:

    Relatd, analysis that first finds facts is the base for sound policy and action. It is action, the action of prizing and seeking wisdom. KF

  377. 377
    relatd says:

    Andrew,

    You’re not listening. Everything you’re saying is in your head. Nothing said here will affect anybody.

  378. 378
    relatd says:

    KF at 376,

    Who will see or hear your wisdom? Right now, it’s nobody. No one in real life.

  379. 379
    ET says:

    Actions are being taken. They will figure out the errors made and find a solution.

    Perhaps we should use the 40 billion some want for the Ukraine to fund school security and other measures.

  380. 380
    asauber says:

    “Nothing said here will affect anybody.”

    Relatd

    Could be true for what you say, too.

    Andrew

  381. 381
    relatd says:

    Andrew at 380,

    Wouldn’t it be great if somebody actually contacted real people and talked to them? Offered them some advice, some suggestions? Or sat down with actual people in law enforcement? Is anybody willing to do that?

  382. 382
    kairosfocus says:

    Relatd, start with this, UD’s blog president is a leading expert on Columbine. Work it on out from there. KF

  383. 383
    relatd says:

    KF at 382,

    Being a leading expert in anything does not cause necessary action. Just understanding the situation does not lead to action. The real world goes its own way and whatever was said here will not cause the necessary action.

  384. 384
    kairosfocus says:

    Relatd, the point that needed to be made has been made. KF

  385. 385
    ET says:

    He didn’t even have a driver’s license. That should be a requirement. If you’re not competent enough to have a driver’s license you shouldn’t be able to have a gun license. Heck, in Texas you have to have a truck with a gun rack. So, a driver’s license should be mandatory.

  386. 386
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: An input from a senior policing official in Texas:

    https://www.wnd.com/2022/05/top-texas-cop-uvalde-police-chief-made-wrong-decision/

    Top Texas cop: Uvalde police chief made ‘the wrong decision’
    ‘There were plenty of officers to do whatever needed to be done’

    During the one hour and 17 minutes that elapsed Tuesday between the time the teen shooter entered Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas, and police officers breached a classroom door and killed him, teachers and children huddled inside made desperate phone calls to police, begging for someone to come save them.

    The decision by the on-scene commander to wait – having declared an active shooter situation had become a “barricaded suspect” situation – was the “wrong decision,” acknowledged Col. Steven McCraw, director of the Texas Department of Public Safety, in a briefing Friday.

    McCraw disclosed that there were “plenty of officers” available on the scene “to do whatever needed to be done.”

    “With the benefit of hindsight, where I’m sitting now, of course it was not the right decision, it was the wrong decision, period,” McCraw said.

    “There was no excuse for that.”

    The commander on the scene Tuesday was Uvalde, Texas, school district Police Chief Pete Arredondo.

    McCraw said Arredondo mistakenly believed it had become a barricade or hostage situation, that “they had time, and there were no kids at risk.”

    “There were 19 officers in there,” McCraw said. “In fact, there were plenty of officers to do whatever needed to be done, with one exception — the incident commander inside believed they needed more equipment and more officers to do a tactical breach at that point.”

    Cordon off and negotiate, in short.

    Columbine . . .

    KF

  387. 387
    kairosfocus says:

    PS, was there a drone or camera monitoring the room? Were there mikes? Snipers using scopes? Thermal imaging?

    F/N: There were windows, I suspect a pulsed laser source could have monitored vibrations from a distance, reconstructing sounds within the room through pulse position modulation. Just to spark thoughts.

  388. 388
    Barry Arrington says:

    KF, I have been following the coverage. It appears that the police response was equal parts cowardly and incompetent. This underscores the conclusions of the OP. Columbine, Parkland and Uvalde prove beyond the slightest doubt that we cannot rest our children’s lives on the off chance that a brave and competent police officer will intervene to save them. How many examples do we need before we open our eyes to the glaring truth?

  389. 389
    Silver Asiatic says:

    Uvalde has had an increase of illegal immigration even though the governor stopped plans by the border patrol to release 1000 migrants a day into the town.

    Knowing this – the school couldn’t remember to keep the doors locked during school hours?

    Uvalde residents voice concerns about increase in migrant border crossings
    “It was more controlled last year, and now we have this border thing out of control, and, you know, it puts us all in danger,” said Joe Benavides, a Uvalde resident.
    https://www.ksat.com/news/local/2021/03/25/uvalde-residents-voice-concerns-about-increase-in-migrant-border-crossings/

    John Sewell, owner of the ranch near Uvalde, Texas, said his Lacys help ward off some would-be thieves. But the dogs can only do so much. He and Jim Volcsko — a friend and former Customs and Border Protection officer who now works at the ranch — are in a daily battle to keep up with the damage …
    https://www.nationalreview.com/2022/04/nightmare-on-the-border-locals-left-to-fend-for-themselves-as-migrant-surge-overruns-ranches-towns/

    Officials report an uptick in migrants boarding trains in Uvalde County. Border Patrol agents are discovering at times, more migrants concealed on a single day than were found in an entire month in years past. In June, one train was found to have more than 50 migrants concealed in the train cars and engine.
    ‘I had more dead people out here than I’ve ever had,’ one rancher said.
    https://www.breitbart.com/border/2021/07/24/migrant-hiding-on-texas-farm-near-border-run-over-killed-by-tractor/

  390. 390
    JHolo says:

    Guns are allowed at the NRA convention, but not when Trump is present. I guess the secret service never got the memo that guns aren’t the problem.

  391. 391
    JHolo says:

    BA: How many examples do we need before we open our eyes to the glaring truth?

    That is exactly what most Americans have been asking.

  392. 392
    JHolo says:

    “The gun lobby’s interpretation of the Second Amendment is one of the greatest pieces of fraud, I repeat the word fraud, on the American people by special interest groups that I have ever seen in my lifetime.”

  393. 393
    kairosfocus says:

    JH,

    We know, for cause, your credibility on matters ideological is low — especially when you make confident manner assertions. Here, loaded accusations of fraud that invite cognitive dissonance analysis along the lines, confession by projection. However, just for record, kindly explain to us the following, from 204 above, a citation of law under precisely that Amendment (and which is the basis for both Conscription and the National Guard of the US and its states, BTW, compare Switzerland across its history):

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/246

    10 U.S. Code § 246 – Militia: composition and classes

    U.S. Code
    Notes

    prev | next
    (a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
    (b) The classes of the militia are—
    (1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
    (2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.
    (Aug. 10, 1956, ch. 1041, 70A Stat. 14, §?311; Pub. L. 85–861, §?1(7), Sept. 2, 1958, 72 Stat. 1439; Pub. L. 103–160, div. A, title V, §?524(a), Nov. 30, 1993, 107 Stat. 1656; renumbered §?246, Pub. L. 114–328, div. A, title XII, §?1241(a)(2), Dec. 23, 2016, 130 Stat. 2497.)

    This is the framework for 30 above.

    KF

    PS, That one may keep and bear arms in general, has never historically meant that one may pose a threat of assassination etc. As you full well know. It is also irrelevant to the OP and 30 above, which apply the militia principle to the protection of vulnerable targets in an era of heightened threat. The right of individual, family and community defence by reasonable and effective means is bound up in the fight/flight equipment built into us and into many other creatures. It finds further expression in the US DoI para 2, where — given our nature as rational, responsible, significantly free and social creatures — the matter of a right to make representation or remonstrance proceeds to that to reform or replace government gone bad. The US Constitution is actually the second attempt to deliver on this paragraph. A paragraph which, historically, is one of the most successful pieces of natural law reasoning. Which, as it is about built in law of our rational, responsible nature, is inherently universal.

    That 2nd Para is the charter of modern constitutional democracy and marks the point where after developments through printing revolution, reformation, rise of literacy, increased prosperity and leisure, inculcation in principles of liberty, law and self government largely through the Bible in vernacular translation, thence the rise of a public with discussion of matters of governance, political space was successfully opened up to move beyond the ages long contest between lawless and lawful oligarchy.

    I go further to state, that other states are able to free ride on the US commitment to these principles. That is how, across C20 and 21, unprecedented numbers of reasonably functional constitutional democracies have emerged.

    The ongoing 4th gen shadow civil war in the US threatening to cause collapse into lawless ideological oligarchy, has implications far beyond the borders of the US. In that context, the 49 year i8mposition of democide of living posterity in the womb through nihilistic imposition under law is a sobering sign, and a root of potentially fatal disaffection.

    (I only mention questionable electoral practices that are open to vastly increased fraud opportunities as the US State Department itself noted when they emerged in Ukraine c 2005.)

    Right now, the US is playing with bigger matches than it seems to realise and given geostrategic considerations, all 7.5 bn of us are stakeholders.

    Please, think again.

    PPS, a good test of fundamental soundness on history and law is to ask, does the Doi have legal force. Those who say no directly imply invalidity of the US Constitution, delivered in the 12th year of independence, save as an instrument of raw power. Similarly, they imply denial that we have a built in core law that sets parameters of reasonable priority of the civil peace of justice for what is done under colour of law. This undermines civil law as an act of highest reason that holds legitimacy beyond might and/or manipulation. Which is an open invitation to nihilism as we have seen.

  394. 394
    kairosfocus says:

    PPPS, It is back to the school of Cicero:

    —Marcus [in de Legibus, introductory remarks,. C1 BC, being Cicero himself]: . . . we shall have to explain the true nature of moral justice, which is congenial and correspondent [36]with the true nature of man [–> we are seeing the root vision of natural law, coeval with our humanity] . . . . With respect to the true principle of justice, many learned men have maintained that it springs from Law. I hardly know if their opinion be not correct, at least, according to their own definition; for . “Law (say they) is the highest reason, implanted in nature, which prescribes those things which ought to be done, and forbids the contrary” . . . .

    They therefore conceive that the voice of conscience is a law, that moral prudence is a law [–> a key remark] , whose operation is to urge us to good actions, and restrain us from evil ones . . . . According to the Greeks, therefore, the name of law implies an equitable distribution of goods: according to the Romans [–> esp. Cicero, speaking as a leading statesman], an equitable discrimination between good and evil.

    The true definition of law should, however, include both these characteristics. And this being granted as an almost self–evident proposition, the origin of justice is to be sought in the divine law of eternal and immutable morality. This indeed is the true energy of nature, the very soul and essence of wisdom, the test of virtue and vice.

    [–> this points to the wellsprings of reality, the only place where is and ought can be bridged; bridged, through the inherently good utterly wise, maximally great necessary being, the creator God, which adequately answers the Euthyphro dilemma and Hume’s guillotine argument surprise on seeing reasoning is-is then suddenly a leap to ought-ought. IS and OUGHT are fused from the root]

    This indeed is the true energy of nature, the very soul and essence of wisdom, the test of virtue and vice.

  395. 395
    kairosfocus says:

    BA, a patent policing failure, the key to which seems to have been a flawed command decision that put in place cordon and negotiate. The lessons of Columbine etc that in a world of nihilistic blood lust one needs to make a very different response than previously, was not adequately mainstreamed. The SWAT tactics were also apparently ill advised, reinforcing delay in which hostages who called 911 from inside the room were killed. I don’t know about cowardice but I can see crooked yardstick thinking. I think there was also lockdown fatigue which may have led to poor consistency. In turn the staff of schools in the community seem to have had a great many lockdowns due to high speed chases of people smugglers, It is always hard to keep security disciplines in place.The relevance of 30 above keeps getting underscored. As it is I figure the school district and police face US$ 100 million or so in legal liabilities over their blunders. KF

    PS, Contrast Toronto was it where a copycat was shot by police before he could attack schools. That has some bearing on the push about confiscation of weapons from the law abiding.

  396. 396
    JHolo says:

    KF: We know, for cause, your credibility on matters ideological is low — especially when you make confident manner assertions. Here, loaded accusations of fraud that invite cognitive dissonance analysis along the lines, confession by projection.

    They are not my accusations of fraud. Those are the accusations made by a former Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. Take it up with him. I suspect he knew more about the constitution than you do.

  397. 397
    JHolo says:

    KF: PS, Contrast Toronto was it where a copycat was shot by police before he could attack schools. That has some bearing on the push about confiscation of weapons from the law abiding.

    He was hardly a copy-cat. Even if he got into a school there is no way he was going to kill anyone with his weapon.

  398. 398
    kairosfocus says:

    JH, you cited with approval, grounding the response to you. As for the former CJ, he fails the history and natural law tests. Unsurprising, though sad as legal positivism has become a dominant school of thought. Roughly speaking, that school holds that law is whatever those who control the legal presses issue under colour and ceremony of law, explicitly denying accountability before principles of Justice. I would suggest, Cicero and others who actually laid the foundation for the lawful state that sees itself as servant to the civil peace of justice, know better than the current establishment on law. KF

    PS, I cannot but notice that you have not commented on the significance of the relevant law on Militia.

  399. 399
    JHolo says:

    KF: JH, you cited with approval, grounding the response to you.

    It was in blockquote, and italics, and witching quotation marks. That clearly indicates that they are not my words.

    As for the former CJ, he fails the history and natural law tests. Unsurprising, though sad as legal positivism has become a dominant school of thought.


    Why don’t you try addressing his reasoning rather than the man. He was a Republican and clearly had his reason for claiming that the 2nd amendment is being misrepresented.

  400. 400
    kairosfocus says:

    JH, I repeat, you cited with implied approval. Meanwhile, you are unresponsive to the standing statute on militia and you are ignoring a substantial response that is anchored in history as well as law. I suggest that you read 30 above and note how I incorporated UCMJ and the Shire Reff. KF

    PS, I note, the CJ in question presided over a notorious decision in 1973. That means his interpretation of rights issues is manifestly open to question. Life is the first, touchstone right.

  401. 401
    JHolo says:

    KF: JH, I repeat, you cited with implied approval.

    Please stop trying to read minds. You are not good at it.

    Meanwhile, you are unresponsive to the standing statute on militia…


    The 2nd clearly states a “well regulated militia”. I don’t have a problem with this.

  402. 402
    kairosfocus says:

    JH, citation as you made implies approval as you full well know; you are simply underscoring the problem by attempts to evade. Where, well regulated militia means able to stand in battle under orders and deliver controlled fire at an effective, rapid rate; cf. von Steuben, late of Prussia. As was pivotal in the then just past Revolution. It is not a blank check for the federal or local state to effect confiscation under colour of regulation; the ten amendments being restrictions on the central government as no 10 underscores. We can readily update to modern circumstances. Further to which, it is not right of state, federal or local, but of the people’ implying individual rights. Where BTW, private ownership and use of cannon was implied in the provision for letters of marque. [In Switzerland, historically, private individuals were invited to purchase outdated artillery pieces as part of the people based national defence.] This is similar to how there is a common failure to recognise the Westphalia settlement context of the 1st Amendment and its implication that what was forbidden is a federal church of the US, local establishment being left to the states with the proviso that Frei Kirke should not be unduly restricted. Indeed, the classic freedoms are set in that context, being steps to petition for redress in case of violation. There is reason to see that a lot of what has gone on under colour of law is ill founded. KF

    PS, notice how you failed to address the unorganised militia.

  403. 403
    kairosfocus says:

    PPS, without endorsing all that is said or tone, I suggest this balancing piece is relevant https://cfif.org/v/index.php/commentary/42-constitution-and-legal/4683-warren-burger-meme-bungles-2nd-amendment

  404. 404
    JHolo says:

    KF: JH, I repeat, you cited with implied approval.

    You cite me quite frequently. Does that imply your approval?

    I notice that you have not responded to my comment that the person the Toronto cops shot was of very little threat to school kids even if he was not stopped by the cops. And why do you think that would be?

  405. 405
  406. 406
    kairosfocus says:

    JH, frivolous evasion. I explicitly remark upon the cites showing my separate view. You are playing a rhetorical game of successive tangents. I draw your attention to the recent article and the Heller case ruling as showing quite specific context for sound understanding. One may differ but one needs to reckon responsively. I point out that Heller is consistent with the statute cited and with 30 above. I trust it is clear that beyond rights to means of self defence I imply individual and collective duties to act in defence of the civil peace of justice. First by the sort of civil society means in US Const Amdt 1 as a classic historical case but also under force of the natural law outlined in DoI para 2, not only sound electoral process but where things are broken down beyond that or where constitutional democracy is not in place and evidence warrants inference to intent of lawless subjugation, there is a duty of armed defence. KF

    PS, I can envision cases where it moves beyond volunteer civilian marshals to conscription of the body politic in the face of mortal danger. The Book of Nehemiah is a classic study on this. And yes, another point where the Bible gives good instruction to ordinary people.

  407. 407
  408. 408
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: It gets worse, the inference that the Border Patrol agents acted independently is confirmed, days after the incident:

    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/federal-agents-entered-uvalde-school-kill-gunman-local-police-initiall-rcna30941

    Federal agents who went to Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas, on Tuesday to confront a gunman who killed 19 children were told by local police to wait and not enter the school — and then decided after about half an hour to ignore that initial guidance and find the shooter, say two senior federal law enforcement officials.

    According to the officials, agents from BORTAC, the Customs and Border Protection tactical unit, and ICE’s Homeland Security Investigations (HSI) arrived on the scene between noon and 12:15 p.m. on Tuesday. Local law enforcement asked them to wait, and then instructed HSI agents to help pull children out of the windows.

    The BORTAC team, armed with tactical gear, at first did not move toward the gunman. After approximately 30 minutes passed, however, the federal agents opted of their own volition to lead the “stack” of officers inside the school and take down the shooter.

    Sad, but we need to identify and draw real lessons towards a sounder future.

    KF

  409. 409
    JVL says:

    US gun violence is a health crisis with evidence-based solutions, experts plea.
    Doctors and researchers say the science is clear, and it’s long past time to act.

    https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/05/us-gun-violence-is-a-health-crisis-with-evidence-based-solutions-experts-plea/

    This is “very much our lane,” Dr. Bindi Naik-Mathuria, a pediatric surgeon at Baylor College of Medicine in Houston, told NBC.

    She spoke vividly about the immediate impacts that AR-15-style weapons have on a human body—particularly the smallest ones. In the Uvalde, Texas school shooting this week, the gunman used an AR-15-style rifle (the Daniel Defense DDM4 V7 rifle), which he bought online. AR-15-style rifles are often used in mass shootings. They use a common military-caliber ammunition. The bullets don’t always pass cleanly through flesh, but can instead become “unstable” and tumble, causing devastating damage that can leave victims unrecognizable and with an exceptionally low chance of survival.

    “It’s not just the hole you see on the outside. It’s a huge blast effect,” Naik-Mathuria told NBC. “You see completely shredded organs. Vessels are completely disrupted. There’s no way to salvage them.”

    The state of some of the bullet-riddled bodies of the fourth-graders killed in this week’s shooting was so grave authorities were forced to use DNA testing to identify their small corpses.

    In 2017, firearm injuries became the leading cause of death in children and teens, overtaking motor vehicle crashes’ more than 60-year streak of being the leading cause. Between 2019 and 2020, the relative rate of firearm-related deaths of all types (suicide, homicide, unintentional, and undetermined) among children and adolescents rose 29.5 percent, according to an analysis published May 19, 2022, in The New England Journal of Medicine. Those numbers were primarily driven by an increase in the crude rate of firearm homicides in children and teens, which rose by 33 percent.

    “This is about protecting people’s health. This is about protecting kids’ lives,” Michael Dowling, president and CEO of New York-based Northwell Health, told Becker’s Hospital Review this week. “Gun violence is not an issue on the outside—it’s a central public health issue for us. Every single hospital leader in the United States should be standing up and screaming about what an abomination this is.”

    More guns make people less safe, study after study has found. Access to firearms triples the risk of suicide and doubles the risk of homicide. States with higher rates of household firearm ownership had significantly higher homicide rates of men, women, and children, health experts at Harvard found in 2007. In 2015, another group of Harvard researchers found that states with the highest rates of gun ownership had rates of firearm assaults 6.8 times higher than states with the lowest rates of gun ownership.

    In 2019, Columbia University health experts found that states with more permissive gun laws and greater gun ownership had higher rates of mass shootings. Specifically, a 10 percent increase in state gun ownership was linked to a 35 percent higher rate of mass shootings. In 2021, researchers found that more gun dealers in an area were linked to increased homicides in subsequent years.

    “The common thread in all of the country’s revolting mass shootings is the absurdly easy access to guns,” Holden Thorp, editor-in-chief of the Science family of journals wrote in an editorial Thursday. “The science is clear: Restrictions work, and it’s likely that even more limitations would save thousands of lives.”

    A 2017 analysis in the journal Science found that gun violence could effectively be reduced by adopting add-on sentences for gun use in violent crime, bans on gun possession by those convicted of domestic violence, and restrictions on carrying concealed firearms in public.

    A 2020 study by Johns Hopkins University health researchers concluded that gun-purchaser licensing laws coupled with comprehensive background check requirements were “consistently associated with lower firearm homicide and suicide rates.” Specifically, when Connecticut adopted a handgun purchaser licensing law in 1995, the state saw an estimated 28 percent overall decrease in its firearm homicide rate and a 33 percent overall decrease in its firearm suicide rate. When Missouri repealed such a licensing law in 2007, it saw an estimated 47 percent overall increase in firearm homicides and a 23.5 percent increase in firearm suicide.

  410. 410
    kairosfocus says:

    JVL, that has been the nature of rifle wounds ever since the rise of smokeless powder and fast moving spitzer bullets. Many pistol rounds also do much the same. The impact of a gunshot wound can be awful, lethal or maiming. That is why it should only be used under circumstances of defence of life and fundamental rights. But in a world where there is nihilist evil, there is a need for effective defence. Where such is a least of realistically evil alternatives. The case being headlined is one where a delay on the old cordon and negotiate model cost more lives and it took independent action by a few to stop the murderous course by direct assault and gun fire. Last Christmas — a case that was not blazed abroad by the media — had a good man with a rifle shot quickly, people would not have been mown down using a vehicle at a Christmas celebration. onward, given the decades of nihilistic behaviour of the US Govt they have to know that a big gun confiscation push will only trigger fatal disaffection and that they will ultimately lose such a 4th gen war subjugation push, with horrific geostrategic consequences. The smart bet is they are playing divide and polarise politics but that is playing with fire that can be uncontrollable. See, fatal disaffection. KF

  411. 411
    JVL says:

    Kairosfocus: they have to know that a big gun confiscation push will only trigger fatal disaffection and that they will ultimately lose such a 4th gen war subjugation push, with horrific geostrategic consequences.

    So, you’re just going to ignore the evidence given by several studies discussed in the article which show that limiting access to guns brings down the number of cases of gun violence?

    So, it’s not about any kind of science or evidence or data?

  412. 412
    kairosfocus says:

    PS, Observe the stilted reporting on the Wisconsin, vehicular mass homicide:

    https://edition.cnn.com/2021/11/22/us/wisconsin-christmas-parade-suv-into-crowd-what-we-know/index.html

    The celebratory sounds of a Wisconsin Christmas parade were interrupted by terrified screams Sunday after a vehicle plowed into participants and spectators gathered for the event in Waukesha, a city about 20 miles west of downtown Milwaukee.
    Five people were killed and more than 40 were injured in the chaos, city officials said, as authorities confirmed the identity of the suspect.
    Here’s what we know about how events unfolded:
    Crowds were bundled up along Main Street to enjoy the parade when a red SUV drove through a series of barricades and barreled onto the parade route around 4:39 p.m. CT, police Chief Daniel Thompson said.
    Police identify the driver they say plowed into a Waukesha Christmas parade, leaving 5 people dead and 48 injured
    Police identify the driver they say plowed into a Waukesha Christmas parade, leaving 5 people dead and 48 injured
    A video of the parade recorded by Angela O’Boyle, who was watching from her fifth-story apartment balcony, shows the SUV hitting an individual in a marching band. The vehicle then continues forward, hitting and running over others in the band and crowd before driving away.
    People can be heard screaming and seen running for safety as the SUV continues its path.
    Video of the parade published on the city’s Facebook page shows a red SUV driving quickly through the parade, followed by a running police officer.
    A Waukesha police officer fired their weapon in an attempt to stop the driver, Thompson said. No bystanders were struck by the officer’s gunfire, the chief added, noting he doesn’t believe any shots were fired from the SUV.

    Was this an autonomous vehicle going out of control? No, as:

    The driver has been identified as Darrell E. Brooks, 39, of Milwaukee, Thompson said Monday afternoon at a news conference.
    Police have recommended five charges of intentional homicide. Prosecutors in the Waukesha County District Attorney’s Office said they will review the matter with police and expect to file initial charges Tuesday. Brooks will make his initial court appearance Tuesday afternoon.
    Additional charges could be filed when more is known about the people who were injured, prosecutors said.
    The chief said no motive is known. Brooks was involved in a domestic disturbance earlier Sunday and left the scene just before driving his SUV through the parade, Thompson said.
    Here's what we know about the suspect in the Waukesha parade tragedy
    Here’s what we know about the suspect in the Waukesha parade tragedy
    “We are confident he acted alone,” Thompson said. “There is no evidence this is a terrorist incident.”

    Clue one, this was a Christmas Parade.

    Let’s compare NYP to see what is missing

    https://nypost.com/2021/12/13/why-waukesha-parade-attack-doesnt-fit-media-narrative/

    ‘Not fitting their narrative’: Waukesha feels abandoned after tragic parade attack
    By Dana Kennedy
    December 13, 2021

    For her whole life, 67-year-old Sharon Millard was so shy, she used to ask her identical twin sister to go on dates in her place in high school.

    But ever since Nov. 21, when Darrell Brooks allegedly plowed into dozens of people at the Waukesha Christmas parade, killing six people, including an 8-year-old boy, and injuring up to 60 others, Millard has felt compelled to speak about the atrocity she witnessed.

    One of the people killed was Millard’s fellow “Dancing Granny,” 79-year-old Virginia “Ginny” Sorenson, who was tossed up in the air like a rag doll by Brooks’ SUV, police say.

    “No one ever saw him coming,” Millard told The Post. “He was going so fast. All I knew is I saw Ginny fly up in the air and land in front of me. I saw her curled up and blood was coming out of her like a river. I was standing in blood.”

    Brooks is a violent 39-year-old career criminal, registered sex offender and amateur rapper from north Milwaukee with a rap sheet going back to 1999, who allegedly punched the mother of his child in the face early last month and then drove over her, leaving tire marks on her leg. Despite the severity of that crime, he was released five days before the Waukesha rampage on a cash bail of just $1,000 set by liberal Milwaukee County prosecutors.

    It does not fit the narrative, and the perpetrator is black with a significant violent crime history.

    Where, regrettably, African American males are disproportionately represented in violent crime in North America. An assessment of the demographics would implicate family breakdown, drink, drugs [including marijuana which has had ever higher THC concentrations in recent years now up to 45% in some cases] and criminalisation of youth culture. Also, a significant factor we have observed in the Caribbean is educational, a disproportionate fraction of the imprisoned are dyslexic; which frustrates learning under conventional instructional techniques.

    That and related profiles for hispanic and caucasian criminality would also correlate with the observation that high incidence of firearms ownership does not correlate well with high violent crime rates.

    All of this has to be known in policy making and media narrative driving circles.

    So, why aren’t these factors at the centre of discussion about civilisational breakdown?

    Obviously, such would lead where the spinmeisters and gaslighters do not wish to go: reformation on principles highly correlated to gospel ethics and teachings of the Bible, a good part of the reason why in former generations leading revivalists and Christian reformers were celebrated figures.

    In short, we are looking at anticivilisational nihilistic misanthropy and radicalism that patently points toward lawless ideological oligarchy, on the grounds Plato identified long ago in his parable of the ship of state. The failure of Athenian Democracy cast Democracy in the shadows for 2000 years. Constitutional democratic self government is inherently unstable and dependent on cultural buttresses as outlined.

    We had better reconsider the fire we are playing with.

    KF

  413. 413
    kairosfocus says:

    JVL, I am looking at the wider evidence as to what is realistic given the cultural moment and a government that nihilistically enabled the democide of 63 million of living posterity in the womb through abuse of the colour of law and media manipulation. They know that a major gun confiscation push will be civilisationally and likely geostrategically catastrophic; costing far more lives than they hope to save. Next, I have not seen the same medical establishment championing suicide prevention when there was a push in recent years to enable euthanasia. Then, the sort of actual violent crime drivers I noted on, including dyslexia issues, marijuana issues and alcohol issues, likewise were not championed by the medical establishment. I do not find a serious reckoning of the balance of costs, risks and losses thus sustainability. So, in an ideal law abiding world we could eliminate: firearms, tanks, artillery, missiles, amies, air forces and navies, saving ever so many lives and dramatically increasing economic growth and support for the needy. So, why aren’t we pushing for that? Because they know too many people understand the reality that this is not that utopian world. As it is, the US precisely because it was founded on peasant uprising as the average man was armed and militarily effective is the guardian that allows other nations to move far closer to utopian policies [see the NATO military budget issue]. The US also has a nihilistic state with growing disaffection. Were firearms licensing like vehicular licensing, we would see a very different thing, but it is not, manifestly not. So, what I see instead is a suspiciously familiar imbalance with strategic gaps in what is being argued. I don’t buy the hidden agenda. KF

  414. 414
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: More on the Christmas parade attack, from NYP:

    Screenshots of Brooks’ Facebook page, under his MathBoi Fly rapper handle, were mysteriously deleted right after the parade murders, and showed that he had praised Hitler, backed Black Lives Matter — and called for violence against white people.

    “So when we start bakk knokkin white people TF out ion wanna hear it…the old white ppl 2, KNOKK DEM TF OUT!! PERIOD,” he wrote under his rap name, MathBoi Fly, along with a middle-finger emoji.

    Brooks’ case has become a cause célèbre — not in the mainstream media, which was slammed for initially saying the deadly attack was caused by “a car” that drove into the parade, but by an increasing chorus of influential podcasters like Joe Rogan and online pundits who claim Brooks and his victims in Waukesha have been “swept under the carpet” by the press because the case doesn’t fit their agenda.

    Where is the national “conversation” on those issues?

    There is more:

    Brooks bounced among his mother’s house in a rough area on Milwaukee’s north side and those of various girlfriends, one 20 miles away in Waukesha. When staying with his mom, he frequented neighborhood hangouts on Capitol Drive like Teutonia Liquors, JJ Fish & Chicken and the run-down Big Man’s Place bar — where the owners peer out from locked doors and cheap surveillance cameras before letting customers inside.

    The pattern is all too familiar, and the indicated reformation points in a rather familiar direction.

    Which, is obviously where the manipulators do not wish to go.

    It is high time for rethinking.

    Where is the push for ever tighter restrictions on vehicular licensing and ownership, given the associated carnage by accident and intent, including vehicular suicides?

    Time for rethinking.

  415. 415
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N, to further see the media manipulation game,

    https://www.investmentwatchblog.com/watch-joe-rogan-eviscerates-media-for-reporting-waukesha-massacre-as-an-accident/

    Watch: Joe Rogan Eviscerates Media For Reporting Waukesha Massacre As An “Accident”
    December 3, 2021 8:35 am by IWB
    Sharing is Caring!

    Authored by Steve Watson via Summit News,

    Joe Rogan once again tore the legacy media apart on his podcast, this time over its coverage of the Waukesha attack after several outlets referred to the murderous rampage as an accident.

    “The guy in Wisconsin had tried to run over his [] girlfriend and he was out on only $1000 bail. [–> attempted murder?] He tried to kill someone with his car, he was out on $1000 bail, and then he runs over 50 people in a car,” Rogan explained.

    “Here’s the [] up part: the way they’re covering that story in the news. It’s not the ‘man who killed those people,’ it was an accident that was caused by an SUV,” Rogan said, referring to NBC, CNN, CBS and others calling the attack a ‘crash’ and an ‘accident’.

    Rogan continued, “A [] SUV caused an accident? what are you saying? Did the car go haywire? Did the auto-driving feature go nuts? No this evil man with real problems… a psychologically [] up human being drove into a crowd of strangers.”

    Rogan comments

    https://rumble.com/vq2ibb-joe-rogan-calls-out-the-media-for-the-way-they-covered-the-waukesha-massacr.html

    Note, he has potty mouth problems, pardon.

    Something is quite wrong here.

    Back to NYP, did the sitting President rush out and seize the moment to address the hate pandemic?

    Here is what happened almost a month after the incident:

    Brooks’ case has become a cause célèbre — not in the mainstream media, which was slammed for initially saying the deadly attack was caused by “a car” that drove into the parade, but by an increasing chorus of influential podcasters like Joe Rogan and online pundits who claim Brooks and his victims in Waukesha have been “swept under the carpet” by the press because the case doesn’t fit their agenda.

    The growing outcry may be why it was announced Saturday that first lady Jill Biden and second gentleman Doug Emhoff will visit Waukesha on Wednesday. Though bordering ultra-Democratic Milwaukee County, Waukesha County is a Republican stronghold.
    After being released on just $1,000 cash bail for allegedly running over the mother of his child earlier this month, Brooks is now being held in Waukesha County Jail, charged with six counts of intentional homicide.

    And by the way, guess what acquittal that was widely denounced in the media happened a few days before the vehicular attack?

    KF

  416. 416
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: When defensive measures are captured by the shooter:

    https://www.breitbart.com/border/2022/05/27/school-security-features-protected-shooter-slowed-texas-police-response/

    School Security Features Protected Shooter, Slowed Texas Police Response

    Some of the features designed to keep students safe in an active shooter situation actually worked to protect the shooter and slow the Uvalde police response to the Texas school shooting on Tuesday. The shooter managed to barricade himself behind two locked doors, forcing police to wait to find keys.

    An 18-year-old shooter shot his way into classroom 111 or 112 at about 11:33 on Tuesday morning, Texas Department of Public Safety Director, Col. Steve McCraw said in a press conference on Friday morning. The classroom doors were unlocked as he entered the classrooms. At that point, the shooter barricaded himself behind the locked doors that were designed to keep an active shooter out of the classrooms.

    School awards ceremonies earlier in the morning could have contributed to the classroom doors being open. Uvalde Consolidated Independent School District safety protocols call for all classroom doors to be “closed and locked at all times.” The classroom doors were open when the shooter made entry into the school.

    Texas Department of Public Safety officials told Breitbart Texas on Friday that these classroom doors are designed to not be able to be kicked in by someone outside the classroom. The doors open toward the hallway and are encased in a metal frame. The windows on the door are a tall, slim rectangular shape designed to limit visibility into the classroom by an active shooter. The two classrooms have a suite-style bathroom between the two classrooms allowing the shooter to move back and forth at will between the rooms. Window blinds also prevented law enforcement from seeing into the classroom.

    “Officers could not see into the classrooms to determine where the shooter was and what tactical advantages he might have,” DPS Lt. Christopher Olivarez told Breitbart. “The shooter had the tactical advantage the entire time.

    Once the shooter locked himself inside the two adjoining classrooms, McCraw said the on-scene commander made the decision that the circumstances had changed from an active shooter situation to a barricaded suspect/hostage situation. McCraw added, “With the benefit of hindsight where I’m sitting now of course, it was not the right decision. It was the wrong decision.”

    Security breakdowns, laxity in response to the shooting outside (when people at the funeral home tried to approach the crashed vehicle to help) allowed entry to the school and capture of a defensive position.

    Security failure and police failure.

    KF

  417. 417
    jerry says:

    The most important question has nothing to do with guns directly but very indirectly.

              Who would want to be a cop anymore?

    If no cops, then what do we do to protect ourselves? Any guesses?

    Aside: what do the people of Uvalde think of their police force?

    Aside2: another mass shooting was prevented two days ago when a woman with a concealed carry permit shot and killed someone firing at a graduation party. Not making the headlines.

  418. 418
    kairosfocus says:

    “Abolish de police!”

  419. 419
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: heartbreaking:

    https://www.facebook.com/945376305602259/posts/pfbid02hRNBTD9ZVZ331RUdnztYd1L5wfCooYZfY44weJUJSVb3xPKJFXNiajAtqL9EGAc9l/?d=n

    Robb Elementary
    May 24 at 9:43 AM ·

    11:43 am

    Robb Elementary is under a Lockdown Status

    Robb Elementary Parents:
    Please know at this time Robb Elementary is under a Lockdown Status due to gunshots in the area. The students and staff are safe in the building. The building is secure in a Lockdown Status. Your cooperation is needed at this time by not visiting the campus. As soon as the Lockdown Status is lifted you will be notified.

    Thank you for your cooperation!

    Anne Marie Espinoza Executive Director of Communications and Marketing Uvalde CISD

    KF

  420. 420
    JHolo says:

    KF has referenced the quick action by police in Toronto, killing a weapon carrying individual walking around in an area that had a couple schools. He referred to it as a possible copy-cat.

    What he fails to mention is that in Texas, because of open-carry laws, the police would be powerless to do anything until he stepped on school property. So, there is one thing that can be done to reduce the risk. Seriously restrict who can carry firearms in public. This does not impinge on their right to own firearms.

    The other thing he fails to mention is that the individual in Toronto, even if he entered a school with the intent to cause harm, could only have caused minor injury to a couple kids, unless he used his weapon as a club. And why is that? Because he was carrying a BB gun.

    Nobody knows what this person’s intent or motivations were. Suicide by cop is more likely than a copy-cat. However, this does not mean that this incidence wasn’t influenced by the Texas slaughter. It was likely the cause of the overreaction and lethal force used by the Toronto police.

    But even if he was a true copy-cat, his ability to cause serious harm was seriously limited by the relative difficulty in attaining guns in Canada.

  421. 421
    JVL says:

    Kairosfocus:

    Let me make sure I’m clear about your position: you have chosen to disregard several recent studies by reputable researchers who examined actual situations where access to privately owned firearms was restricted in someway and those measures were NOT destabilising but demonstrably did lead to lower rates of gun homicide . . . and you’re choosing to disregard those clearly repeatable results for what non-ideological reasons exactly?

    Or is it all just down to views which are impervious to new data and evidence?

    More to the point: if there are approaches which have clearly demonstrated that they actually, verifiably reduce gun crime (and when they are rescinded gun crime goes up) then why won’t you support those proven methods for saving lives?

    Which do you prefer: having fewer guns on the streets and therefore fewer firearm homicides OR putting even more guns out there: arming teachers and having more armed policemen about?

    Don’t bother to reply; I know what your answer will be. You’ve been very, very clear especially with all your talk about various weapons and surveillance and assault techniques. Guns are ways to solve problems for you. And if the other guys have a lot of guns then you need even more guns. An eye for an eye, a life for a life eh? I’m surprised you haven’t moved to Miami, got yourself some serious firepower and spent time patrolling the streets looking to stop pimps and drug pushers and gangs and dirty cops and the occasional mentally deranged person who was able to purchase a semi- or even fully- automatic weapon with minimal checks or restrictions. Heck, you’re one of the good guys, if the cops aren’t going to do their jobs then why shouldn’t you do their jobs for them? It would be cheaper than paying for more cops. And when you can’t find any bad guys to plug you can always hang around the closest abortion clinic and scare away women who got pregnant by being raped.

    I wonder who is the actual nihilistic one here?

  422. 422
    kairosfocus says:

    JH, yes, BB gun which rarely kills. Now, there actually is a 1990 law for the US which sets a perimeter around schools, modified to take in the usual interstate commerce etc after suit. But more to the point not the usual distractors, we see that we had lockdown failure just when someone was watching, followed by policing failure. The need for target hardening as in the OP and my comment at 30 endorsed by poster of the OP in 32, is underscored. Many side tracks, distractors and even some outright slanders have occurred above, but they don’t change the force of this need. In addition, underlying drivers are on the table that need to be faced. KF

  423. 423
    kairosfocus says:

    JVL, kindly stop setting up a strawman in order to abusively comment against me. I do not need to repeat myself on what I actually said, just I point out that you wish to attack a caricature, which frankly is easier than addressing several fairly dangerous policy issues. I just say, guns do not solve all problems but in a world where there are violent nihilists adequate defence is necessary and if you are unwilling to speak to specifics then do not smear others for the crime in your mind of having thought about say terminal ballistics; maybe you should know just how offensive you are, three weeks ago my cousin was murdered by a criminal who [details suppressed] in Cayman, for the crime of having been a Supt of Prisons. Stop it. KF

  424. 424
    JHolo says:

    KF: But more to the point not the usual distractors, we see that we had lockdown failure just when someone was watching, followed by policing failure.

    KF, you keep talking about soft target hardening and police procedures, but you completely turn a blind eye to why these are required in the US and not in most other developed nations.

    Using accident investigation parlance, the open door and the lack of police action would be classified as the immediate causes. Important to identify but relatively inconsequential. Of critical importance is the identification of the root cause and addressing it to prevent or seriously reduce recurrence. All studies and any third grader can tell you that the root cause of this incident, and thousands of others, is the easy availability of firearms.

  425. 425
    JVL says:

    Kairosfocus: three weeks ago my cousin was murdered by a criminal who [details suppressed] in Cayman, for the crime of having been a Supt of Prisons. Stop it

    I am sorry to hear that but there is no way my comments should be judged in light of that since I had no way of knowing that had happened.

    kindly stop setting up a strawman in order to abusively comment against me

    I’m sorry but you do exactly that all the time. You misrepresent what evolutionary theory is saying and you assume that people who disagree with you must have certain views which you find repugnant. Have you checked your eyes for motes recently?

    which frankly is easier than addressing several fairly dangerous policy issues.

    The article I linked to discussed several bits of research which directly discussed proven ways to reduce gun violence in the US. The methods discussed were not destabilising and were tested in various states over varying lengths of time. How is that not dealing with the issue at hand? We all want to reduce gun violence do we not? Why not try methods that have worked and been shown to work more that once in different locations? Unless there is something more important to you than saving lives.

  426. 426
    kairosfocus says:

    JVL, that’s why you need to be a lot more restrained; with all due respect. One week later his dad, best man for mine, died of a literal broken heart. He made five bereavements in a run. KF

  427. 427
    kairosfocus says:

    JH, stop making up a strawman target to knock over. Read, really read, what I put on the table about the matches we are playing with. A perfect world would have no guns, tanks, artillery, army or navy or air force. Go read the history of the 1920s and 30s to see what happened when a lot of people tried to go there. Then ask yourself why I note that a lot of other countries can do and say what they do because the US is taking up the slack and bearing the costs. Including those of having an armed citizenry. Ponder what happens if fatal disaffection sets in because of a push for confiscation by a nihilist government that under colour of law has pushed policy that led to the slaughter of 63 million, 25,000 per week. Do you understand why there is already serious disaffection? Contrast this case to the vehicular mowing down in Wisconsin and draw out implications for what is going on; I have put on the table quite enough to spark thought, though the thought will be bitter to chew on. You can take the blue pill but here is the red. Try: the US is already in a shadow, 4th gen civil war led by a nihilistic ideological elite seeking to impose lawless oligarchy through a cultural form of marxism as they imagine the USA and what it represents is what is fundamentally wrong with the world, just as I saw a similar war from 1976 – 80 and lived to see Russia rent a conference centre to publicly apologise for its part in 1990. Now ponder global, geostrategic consequences of utter chaos in the US way beyond 1975 – 80, the years of post VN geostrategic retreat. Then, think again. KF

  428. 428
    JVL says:

    Kairosfocus: that’s why you need to be a lot more restrained; with all due respect. One week later his dad, best man for mine, died of a literal broken heart. He made five bereavements in a run.

    Again, I am sorry to hear that. But, likewise, you have no way of knowing what things might have happened to me that I chose not to mention.

  429. 429
    JHolo says:

    KF: JH, stop making up a strawman target to knock over.

    KF, root cause analysis is not a strawman. Using phrases like ‘the matches we play with’, ‘the branch we sit on’, ‘ nihilism’, ‘4th gen civil war’, now those are strawmen.

    Then ask yourself why I note that a lot of other countries can do and say what they do because the US is taking up the slack and bearing the costs. Including those of having an armed citizenry.

    How, exactly does Canada or New Zealand or Australia benefit from the US having an armed citizenry. Due to proximity and an unguarded border, gun proliferation in the US only makes it more difficult to keep illegal firearms out of Canada.

    Gun control has nothing to do with your fictitious nihilistic government, or your fictitious 4th generation civil war, or abortion. It has to do with reasonable restrictions on firearm ownership, background checks, proper storage, etc. Your hyperbolic dooms-day preaching does nothing to keep children safe.

    Again, give me one good reason why the US cannot do what most other countries have done. Pointing to the 2nd amendment is not a valid reason. Firstly, there is not common agreement on what it entails. Secondly, it was written when flint-lock muskets were the state-of-the-art in deadly force. And thirdly, the constitution and its amendments are not carved in stone. They can be changed. If this weren’t the case, we would still have slavery. Women, blacks, Indigenous peoples and people of Asian descent would not be allowed to vote. Being difficult is not a reason not to do the right thing.

  430. 430
    kairosfocus says:

    JH, start with the USN, now standing in for the RN after the UK’s geostrategic retirement from 1945 on. If you do not understand the consequences of a serious gun confiscation push by a government with hands dripping already from 63 million victims, I cannot help you but can hold you up as an example to others. As for claiming analysis of root causes; the contrast between Wisconsin last Nov and this week are enough to show that just the opposite is the case. The reality is, this week we saw failure to handle lockdown soundly and policing failure. KF

  431. 431
    jerry says:

    a blind eye to why these are required in the US and not in most other developed nations

    Because the US is unique in the developed world.

    No other developed nation comes close to having the ethnic makeup and financial attractions as the US.

    Literally half the world would like to live in the US – the only drawback is bringing their families.

    Answer the question why does gun ownership and crime very highly negatively correlate?

  432. 432
    ET says:

    Again, it is not a gun problem. It’s a people problem.

    And the USA doesn’t want to be like other countries. We are not sheep. We will not become a police State.

    Last Tuesday there were failures in the process. They will be corrected.

  433. 433
    kairosfocus says:

    Jerry, they obviously don’t understand that others can be as they are because someone is bearing the burden of survival of a free world. The British people of old understood the why of the royal navy and the consequences of its collapse. They are deaf to what will happen if fatal disaffection sets in in the US. They don’t understand that the slaughter of 63 million under colour of law and the ruthless nihilism behind it have brought the USA to a brink; they think dirty business as usual can continue, they can game the system to continue the trend of what they imagine is progress or even — God help us — Science. I suspect, if the balloon goes up, they will still be spinning pin the blame elsewhere games in the ashes decades from now. Nigh fifty years later that is true of my native land. KF

    PS, the contrast of how the elites handled car mowing in obvious retaliatory hate crime to what they want to milk out of a failure of security and policing they think they can spin under their narrative speaks. Do I need to say, Reichstag fire is a game you get to play once?

  434. 434
    JHolo says:

    KF: JH, start with the USN, now standing in for the RN after the UK’s geostrategic retirement from 1945 on.

    I’m sorry. I’m not following your logic here. What is the link between the US having the largest navy and Billy-Bob being able to buy an assault rifle with no waiting period, no background check, etc?

    you do not understand the consequences of a serious gun confiscation push by a government with hands dripping already from 63 million victims, I cannot help you but can hold you up as an example to others.

    Again with the abortion issue. Apparently you are opposed to aborting a six week old fetus but willing to accept that the US (lack of) gun laws has led to the death of thousands of people, including not an insignificant number of children. In fact, a bullet was the leading cause of the death of children, surpassing car accidents.

    Wow. Talk about raising a strawman. Who is suggesting the confiscation of guns? Certainly not me, except for those illegally obtained or those held by people with criminal records, or those found to use or store them improperly.

    for claiming analysis of root causes; the contrast between Wisconsin last Nov and this week are enough to show that just the opposite is the case. The reality is, this week we saw failure to handle lockdown soundly and policing failure. KF

    You obviously do not understand what root cause analysis is. Might I suggest that you review any of numerous root cause analysis descriptions found on line.

  435. 435
    kairosfocus says:

    For the rest, read 412 on above.

  436. 436
    JHolo says:

    ET: Again, it is not a gun problem. It’s a people problem.

    Then I assume that you are opposed to the restrictions placed on the purchase and secure storage of ammonium nitrate after the Oklahoma bombing. After all, the 168 deaths were clearly the result of a ‘people problem’ not an ammonium nitrate problem. We require seat belts and airbags to mitigate a ‘people problem’. In fact, many of our health and safety regulations are there to mitigate ‘people problems’. Why are people so opposed to putting reasonable mitigating controls with regard to firearms?

  437. 437
    kairosfocus says:

    JH, you already know you are playing strawman rhetoric games. You have a government that has spent 49 years carrying out democide under colour of law and rights, resulting in a holocaust of 63 million. That govt continues with big lie and reichstag fire agit prop games and now seeks to do what the British tried April 19 1775. If you cannot see where that leads, go reread the US DoI; this time with DC in the place of Geo III. Then, ponder geostrategic consequences that extrapolate what has already begun with Afghanistan, Ukraine, Iran and Taiwan. The last, ponder why Germany twice tried to break out beyond the barrier Islands sitting across the exit of the North Sea, and compare what Japan, S Korea, Taiwan, Australia and Singapore will do once they realise the USN is unlikely to be there when the balloon goes up for them, if there is chaos in the USA. KF

  438. 438
    JVL says:

    Kairosfocus:

    Since you have clearly avoided actually addressing the solutions proposed in the papers discussed in the article I linked to I’m just going to quit expecting you to do so. But your avoidance of the issues has been noted.

    Really you should learn to actually discuss things with people instead of just continuing to post long, rambling posts about situations and circumstances which are removed from the current and immediate situation. Just because you see a theme doesn’t mean it actually exists. If you learned to see things from other people’s point of view you might even get your view more appreciated.

  439. 439
    ET says:

    Timothy Mcvay wasn’t right in the head. You are clearly in need of help, JH.

  440. 440
    Seversky says:

    Mass shootings are neither a gun problem nor a people problem. Guns alone do nothing unless a human being pulls the trigger. An unarmed individual can kill others using other means but not as easily as with a modern semi-automatic firearm. Mass shootings are a human and gun problem.

    When the Founding Fathers drafted the Second Amendment they referred to “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,…”. The intent of this right was clearly to guarantee the availability of a disciplined body of men trained and practiced in the use of the firearms of the day that could be called upon in times of national emergency. It was equivalent to the requirement in earlier centuries in England that yeoman practice the longbow so that the king could call upon a body of skilled archers for his army in time of war.

    There is nothing in the text of the Second Amendment to suggest it was intended as a blanket right for anyone to carry whatever weapon they chose whenever they wanted.

    It should not be necessary to point out that, at the time the Second Amendment was drafted, the most advanced firearms technology was the single-shot, muzzle-loading, flintlock rifle or musket. With these weapons a skilled rifleman or musketeer might manage three aimed shots per minute. No one was going to commit mass shootings with such weapons. In fact, it’s highly unlikely that the founders ever envisioned that, in the future, one individual could have a weapon which gave him the equivalent firepower of an entire company of Revolutionary War infantry, let alone that depraved individuals would go into schools and shoot large numbers of children for whatever reason. If they had foreseen such a possibility, do you not think they would have changed the wording of that Amendment?

    People should have the right to own and shoot firearms for sport or recreation or personal defense but we should remember that the proper limit to any right in society is where the exercise of that right could harm the life, health and legitimate interests of others. Where there is a conflict of interests, society has a right and a duty to step in and do whatever it can to protect the rights of all not just one group. In the case of gun ownership, if that means introducing measures such as universal background checks, requiring at least some basic training in order to qualify for a license, ensuring that legally-owned guns and ammunition be held in some form of secure storage, requiring insurance coverage and the complete destruction of all arms and ammunition confiscated after use in a crime or found to be held illegally and so on, then so be it

  441. 441
    jerry says:

    Here’s the logic.

    The last bastion between the taking over the world by the dark side is the United States.

    The last bastion between taking over the United States are those with guns.

    That’s very simplified but a large percentage of the US believe that.

    The main thing that Kf has wrong is who is the dark side. They are definitely not the Marxists and their sympathizers. The ironic thing is they are the useful idiots.

    The dark side is modern day fascism in the form of a corporatism under control of the WEF. Here’s an eye opener. Look who is associated with the WEF.

    https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2022/05/forget_the_marxists_heres_the_real_enemy_of_america.html

    Follow the money!

    The other ironic thing is that those who oppose the US and it’s gun policy will be silenced if the takeover ever happens. They along with the Marxists will no longer be needed.

  442. 442
    kairosfocus says:

    JVL, false. In fact, turnabout. A major confiscation push by the government with the blood of 63 million already on its hands and has already played reichstag fire atit prop and lawfare games would hit a dynamic you apparently refuse to acknowledge. I point it out on history, the history as to why there is a USA. But, given that the US is the state whose navy preserves geostrategic balance and protects trade, the global result would be even more catastrophic. The sharp contrast between Wisconsin last November and the push just now not only highlights the true root issues behind a rising tide of violent nihilism but it exposes the hollowness of the claimed concerns and the likely onward intent of the cultural marxism influenced elites. the long march through major cultural institutions is facing a hard limit now. Lawfare, red guards rioting in the streets for the summer of 2020 with power backing, selective faux outrage rooted in cynical marxist create a crisis tactics, repeated flimsy impeachments, dirty elections and more with the 49 years of democide under false colour of law are a clear long train of abuses and usurpations. Apparently it has not registered that you have been in early stage 4th gen civil war since about 2016 – 17 and that this intersects with a slow burn WW4 of similar character. WW3 was the so called Cold war. You are dancing on the edge of a crumbling cliff. KF

  443. 443
    kairosfocus says:

    PS, April 19, 1775:

    https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/the-american-revolution-begins

    1775
    April 19
    American Revolution begins at Battle of Lexington

    April 19, 1775: At about 5 a.m., 700 British troops, on a mission to capture Patriot leaders and seize a Patriot arsenal, march into Lexington to find 77 armed minutemen under Captain John Parker waiting for them on the town’s common green. British Major John Pitcairn ordered the outnumbered Patriots to disperse, and after a moment’s hesitation the Americans began to drift off the green. Suddenly, a shot was fired from an undetermined gun, and a cloud of musket smoke soon covered the green. When the brief Battle of Lexington ended, eight Americans lay dead or dying and 10 others were wounded. Only one British soldier was injured, but the American Revolution had begun.

    Ask yourself, why. Notice, onward:

    By 1775, tensions between the American colonies and the British government approached the breaking point, especially in Massachusetts, where Patriot leaders formed a shadow revolutionary government and trained militias to prepare for armed conflict with the British troops occupying Boston. In the spring of 1775, General Thomas Gage, the British governor of Massachusetts, received instructions from England to seize all stores of weapons and gunpowder accessible to the American insurgents. On April 18, he ordered British troops to march against the Patriot arsenal at Concord and capture Patriot leaders Samuel Adams and John Hancock, known to be hiding at Lexington.

    The Boston Patriots had been preparing for such a military action by the British for some time, and upon learning of the British plan, Patriots Paul Revere and William Dawes were ordered to set out to rouse the militiamen and warn Adams and Hancock. When the British troops arrived at Lexington, a group of militiamen were waiting. The Patriots were routed within minutes, but warfare had begun, leading to calls to arms across the Massachusetts countryside.

    When the British troops reached Concord at about 7 a.m., they found themselves encircled by hundreds of armed Patriots. They managed to destroy the military supplies the Americans had collected but were soon advanced against by a gang of minutemen, who inflicted numerous casualties. Lieutenant Colonel Francis Smith, the overall commander of the British force, ordered his men to return to Boston without directly engaging the Americans. As the British retraced their 16-mile journey, their lines were constantly beset by Patriot marksmen firing at them from behind trees, rocks, and stone walls. At Lexington, Captain Parker’s militia had its revenge, killing several British soldiers as the Red Coats hastily marched through his town. By the time the British finally reached the safety of Boston, nearly 300 British soldiers had been killed, wounded, or were missing in action. The Patriots suffered fewer than 100 casualties.

    The battles of Lexington and Concord were the first battles of the American Revolution, a conflict that would escalate from a colonial uprising into a world war that, seven years later, would give birth to the independent United States of America. [-> notice the odd dating]

    Now, ponder the DoI, 1776:

    When . . . it becomes necessary for one people . . . to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God [–> natural law context is explicit] entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind [–> they were consciously universal in their appeal] requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, [cf Rom 1:18 – 21, 2:14 – 15; note, law as “the highest reason,” per Cicero on received consensus], that all men are created equal [–> note, equality of humanity], that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights [–> thus there are correlative duties and freedoms framed by the balance], that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. –That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, –That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security . . . .

    We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions [Cf. Judges 11:27], do, in the Name, and by the Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.

  444. 444
    kairosfocus says:

    Sev, start by reading the Heller ruling; already linked above. Then, ponder the cultural moment and the long train of abuses and usurpations already on the table. KF

  445. 445
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: Another policy failure driven by hubris:

    https://townhall.com/columnists/townhallcomstaff/2022/05/28/the-day-the-electricity-died-n2607923?bcid=9eb19a4c8a920bdf8008aebae3825012069c9b561ac3fc92e5c47c7e310227f9&recip=2101321

    we need to understand a little bit about how electric grids work. They cannot store electricity without a battery. Batteries are scarce and expensive. Electric demand must be met with electricity generation, always. If supply cannot keep up with demand, the utility will shut down electricity for some or many.

    For nearly a week, Texas utilities were unable to meet demand. They shut down the electric grid. Five million people lost power, and from 250 to 700 died. If an electric grid breaks, all the people it serves will be without electricity for weeks or months.

    Nonetheless, Progressives favor energy policies that will make grid failures more frequent, widespread, and prolonged. They want to close coal plants without enough full-time power ready to take their place. They seem unconcerned about reliability. They want coal plants torn down even if we have to keep paying them—like selling your car to get a newer one while you still owe lots on the first.

    The people of the upper Midwest will pay the price this summer. Their multi-state grid operator, MISO, has warned that it will be 5 GWs short of electricity this summer. California also could be up to5 GWs short, enough to power 1.3 million homes. Texas warned that there might not be enough electricity for last week’s unexpected 90° weather, or for hotter days coming this summer.

    What do they all have in common? Increasing their reliance on solar and wind and closing coal plants. A dirty green secret is that coal is full-time power and wind and solar are not. Electric grids must have full-time, on-demand power all the time—plus some—or blackouts are guaranteed.

    Another dirty secret: wind and solar produce little or no energy 70% of the time. This means that to replace 1,000 MW of coal, it will take 3,500 MW of wind turbines’ “nameplate capacity,” or 5,000 MW of solar’s. That’s about 1,200 3 MW wind turbines or 13 million solar panels, in either case occupying nearly 40 square miles.

    About 240 coal plants in the United States deliver about 22% of our electricity. About71,000 wind towers produce about 9% of our electricity on a part-time, when-the-wind-blows, basis.

    Do we see the pattern?

  446. 446
    vividbleau says:

    KF
    Since JVL is all about the facts
    https://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2022/05/25/andrew-follett-says-the-media-is-telling-you-two-major-lies-about-mass-shootings-and-gun-control/

    “Out of 97 countries with data, the US is 64th in frequency of mass shootings and 65th in murder rate.

    And rates of mass shootings elsewhere are rising faster”

    The highest gun-ownership state with the loosest gun laws in the nation is Wyoming, where 59.7% of households have a gun (really!)

    Wyoming gun laws are arguably the LEAST restrictive in the United States. Wyoming does NOT HAVE a gun homicide problem, with a rate of only 1.4 per 100,000–actually lower than right across the border in more gun-controlled Canada– and only about a third of that of the nation as a whole.

    The highest murder rate of any jurisdiction in the US is Washington, DC, which has a murder rate of 21.8 per 100,000… more than twenty times that of most European countries!

    But DC also has the most restrictive gun laws in the country… and the lowest rates of legal gun ownership, with numbers less than in many European states!

    If stricter gun laws reduced gun violence rates, you’d expect jurisdictions with those laws to have lower rates of gun violence.

    Instead, we find quite the opposite. who runs Washington, D.C., New York City, Baltimore, Chicago, Detroit, Oakland, etc.? Of course, liberals have found a workaround; they claim that all of the illegal guns in, say, Chicago, are brought in from neighboring states with less strict gun control laws. Even if that’s true, the gun control laws on the books aren’t doing much to stop it.”

    Vivid

  447. 447
    JVL says:

    Kairosfocus: Apparently it has not registered that you have been in early stage 4th gen civil war since about 2016 – 17 and that this intersects with a slow burn WW4 of similar character.

    That’s because that’s not happening in Europe with its sexually tolerant laws and societies. The only groups who consistently misbehaved are Islamic extremists. Maybe in the US some people (like Donald Trump) think it’s responsible and clever to whip up anger and resentment and fear which is driving a greater and greater polarisation. And more violence.

    But, ONCE AGAIN, the article I linked to discussed reputable research which has shown that restricting gun access has consistently reduced the number of gun crimes committed. And you have yet to find fault or mistakes in their methodology or conclusions except to say you don’t like their conclusions. Your denials of the research amount to scare mongering and conspiracy theories. And, therefore, you refuse to accept a tried and true way to reduce the number of gun homicides because you disagree with abortion laws. You are choosing to accept even more deaths of young and innocent children. Shame on you. You should be supporting everything possible to prevent more deaths.

  448. 448
    vividbleau says:

    BTW we don’t enforce the gun laws on the books, Hunter Biden committed a felony and what happened to him?

    Vivid

  449. 449
    JVL says:

    Vividbleau: If stricter gun laws reduced gun violence rates, you’d expect jurisdictions with those laws to have lower rates of gun violence.

    Are you saying the results of the research cited in the article I linked to is wrong or misinterpreted or lies?

  450. 450
    relatd says:

    More useless discussions? In summary:

    No lessons learned.

    No improvements made.

    And most importantly, NO lives saved after all this vague discussing.

  451. 451
    vividbleau says:

    JVL

    I read your article and it made a lot of claims such as the one about gun ownership and gun violence, the state of Wyoming disproves,that. but it was short on facts. And they omitted the fact that states and cities with the most restrictive laws have the highest rates of gun violence. Indeed more young men and woman will be shot in Chicago this weekend probably.

    I am not disputing your article, or calling you or the authors liars however I would like to see the actual data they based their conclusions on. Will go back and reread it.Do you dispute the claim that cities and states that have the most restrictive gun laws are the most violent?

    Vivid

  452. 452
    vividbleau says:

    “However, the empirical evidence for the relationship between the level of firearm ownership and the incidence of criminal activity, albeit extensive, remains controversial. When considering homicide, one summary of the literature claimed that “levels of general gun ownership appear to have no significant net effect on rates of homicide.”4 By contrast, other studies have demonstrated an association between firearm availability and homicide,5, 6 with a review concluding that “the available evidence is consistent with the hypothesis that increased gun prevalence increases the homicide rate.”7

    “Finally, these data do not allow investigation of the temporal association between firearm ownership and crime rates. Elevated crime rates could have motivated the private acquisition of firearms in the interest of self-defense and protection. The longitudinal analysis showing that firearm ownership in 2001 predicts crime in later years provides some assurance about the direction of the effect, but is not adequate to completely rule out the possibility of reverse causation. Given the methodologic limitations of this study, especially those inherent in its ecologic design, this study should be replicated with more recent, individual-level data, as recently “

    Vivid

  453. 453
    vividbleau says:

    “No lessons learned.”

    I disagree.
    1) Relying on the Calvary to defend you is a pipe dream.
    2) We defend our President with guns, we defend our celebrity’s with guns,,we defend our banks with guns, we defend our courts with guns, we defend our jewelry stores with guns, we defend our sporting events with guns, etc.
    3) Our schools are gun free zones! How does that make sense?
    4) One secured entrance double trap doors monitored by armed security.
    5) Quit giving billions to the Ukraine and fund school security.

    Vivid

  454. 454
    JHolo says:

    This is what the US is willing to live with.
    https://s3.amazonaws.com/chartprod/AMPbbsYxR7Zw8stdr/thumbnail.png

  455. 455
    kairosfocus says:

    JVL, first we can look at fairly conventional operations now in progress in Ukraine, in Europe and note the escalated threat to Taiwan and Japan. The nuke emergence in Iran is there. You have forgotten settlement Jihad in France and earlier stages in Germany and Britain. (On 9/11, stirred to search, I became aware of a 100 year global plan of Radical Islam, along with plans for nukes, since taken down.) Chinese moves in Africa and elsewhere come to mind. There is a clear long term global geostrategic contest. The playout across the ME speaks to much the same. And more. KF

    PS, you still have no answer to the fatal disaffection issue that is on the table, the situation is highly nonlinear. In 1775 the British Governor of Massachusetts clearly did not imagine that he was triggering not only civil war and revolution but world war with operations as far away as off India. When a line of militia were confronted and dispersed then a stockpile of arms was destroyed it looked like a win. Only, to meet with a much wider uprising to arms that led to withdrawal from Massachusetts and wider fighting on the army in being model where defeats did not lead to surrender. . Studies from well behaved relatively small cases have no ability to scale to what happens when a people accustomed to liberty perceive an existential threat.

  456. 456
    kairosfocus says:

    JH, the clustering is misleading as it clearly includes gang war issues. And organised criminality is extraordinarily resistant to confiscation of legal firearms or tight restrictions on same, even to pretty drastic police and military operations, you can end up looking at in effect a guerilla war. Ask the Mexicans about that for just one example. Or ask soldiers who were in Afghanistan about why the US was defeated. KF

  457. 457
    JHolo says:

    KF: JH, the clustering is misleading as it clearly includes gang war issues.

    I’m sure that little tap-dance is comforting to the parent of a child with a bullet in its head.

    Here’s another little fact. Since Columbine, 169 kids have been killed in US mass school shootings. Restrictions were placed on the sale and storage of ammonium nitrate after 168 people were killed in Oklahoma. How many more kids have to be killed before you admit that reasonable controls on firearms should be examined.

  458. 458
    kairosfocus says:

    Vivid, Lott’s observation that heartland, rural regions tend to both higher firearms ownership and lower crime than urban zones with fairly large criminal populations should be obvious. I come from a state where nearly 50 years ago drastic state of emergency powers were put in place and sustained for many years only to see civil war, drug trade and protection racket fuelled warlordism, repeated outbreaks of civil conflict, a case where in effect military invasion and occupation had to be resorted to and sustained high rates of murder that make anything in the US look pale by comparison. The sort of patterns surrounding the November car attack case sound all too familiar. The reality is entrenched violent crime is tied to societal breakdown and resists efforts to contain or eliminate it and to reform society. That includes fairly drastic measures. Gun confiscation from lawful citizens is unlikely to have effect on that, and may trigger a 1775 given issues I pointed out. You are already seeing increasing disaffection. KF

  459. 459
    kairosfocus says:

    JH, you just went into needless personal offensiveness territory on a point I have already pointed out. Your projection is an outrageous accusation to someone who just lost a cousin to precisely such. A former superintendent of prison in a shop attacked by criminals singled out and murdered doubtless for revenge, in a society with highly restrictive gun ownership and backed by policing and military efforts of the UK. I do not need to more than point to the above outline on my homeland to underscore why I doubt the sorts of remedies on offer. As to the parallels to 1775 and other linked issues, I think some rethinking by those who imagine themselves progressive is in order but fear that we are going to have to learn the hard way again as usual. With the geostrategic issues at stake, we can ill afford such. But then the progressives of the 20s and 30s could not imagine the disaster they were courting, or that that discredited dinosaur Churchill who failed at Gallipoli could be right. KF

  460. 460
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: The [formerly] red because it is dread Gun Court https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_Court which started with a sentence of indefinite detention. Yes effective prisoner of war status under machine guns and barbed wire. This went with a state of emergency and search seizure powers that your constitution would never tolerate, literally for decades. Gun ownership is extremely tightly restricted and by licence. I clip:

    The Gun Court is the branch of the Jamaican judicial system that tries criminal cases involving firearms. The court was established by Parliament in 1974 to combat rising gun violence, and empowered to try suspects in camera, without a jury. The Supreme Court, Circuit Courts, and Resident Magistrate’s Courts function as Gun Courts whenever they hear firearms cases. There is also a Western Regional Gun Court in Montego Bay. Those convicted by the Gun Court are imprisoned in a dedicated prison compound at South Camp [Road] in Kingston. Until 1999, the Gun Court sessions were also held in the same facility.

    The long sentences of the Gun Court and its restrictions on the rights of the accused have given rise to constitutional challenges, some of which have been appealed to the Privy Council in London. These cases have resulted in some modifications to the court, but have upheld it on the whole. The Gun Court system has also been the target of criticism because of its lengthy delay in hearing cases, and the continuing rise in gun violence since its adoption.

    In short, it became overwhelmed, was expanded and is still overwhelmed.

    The only thing I knew that worked was an evangelist who went there and preached. V T, formerly the worst young gunman in his part of Kingston was converted. He taught himself to read, set up a school in the Court, eventually became a college student while still there. Yes, he was let out on mornings, given bus fare etc and went to the then CAST in Papine. After a year he was released and was Christian Fellowship Vice President there when I met him.

    The reality is the only proved means of transforming an entrenched violent criminal culture and its hardened members is revival and reformation.

    Precisely what the rabid secularists do not want to hear anything about.

    Much more can be said.

    KF

  461. 461
    kairosfocus says:

    PS, hanging, at the rate of two to four, seemingly every Tuesday and Thursday for years until the Governor General got sick of it did not work either. Other than I suppose removing some from the system. On the streets, the police became deadly, many many were shot by police. Trinity was the most notorious case try https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqlFCX3vMJ4 . Listen to interview with Mutabaruka https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXZdWcpukOY

  462. 462
    JHolo says:

    I saw this on FB and thought it was very appropriate.

    “Not a single kid has died in a mass reading, yet they’re banning books instead of guns.”

  463. 463
    JHolo says:

    This data comparing gun deaths of children by country is a couple years old but it speaks for itself.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2722599/figure/f1-pch10473/?report=objectonly

  464. 464
    vividbleau says:

    “saw this on FB and thought it was very appropriate.

    “Not a single kid has died in a mass reading, yet they’re banning books instead of guns.”

    California is leading the way.

    https://www.newsweek.com/kill-mockingbird-other-books-banned-california-schools-over-racism-concerns-1547241

    Vivid

  465. 465
    JHolo says:

    Here is a fact I was unaware of:

    At present, federal laws prohibit analytic studies designed to test hypotheses concerning the epidemic of mortality from firearms among US schoolchildren.

    Also from the same paper:

    We believe that combatting the epidemic of mortality from firearms among US schoolchildren without addressing firearms is analogous to combatting the epidemic of mortality from lung cancer from cigarettes without addressing cigarettes.

    https://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002-9343(19)30176-7/pdf

  466. 466
    JHolo says:

    VB: California is leading the way. [banning books]

    Actually, Texas, Pennsylvania, Florida, Oklahoma, Kansas and Tennessee lead the pack.

    Texas came in first as the state with the largest number of book bans at 713, followed by Pennsylvania with a striking 456 bans, Florida with 204, Oklahoma with 43, Kansas with 30 and Tennessee with 16, according to the report.
    https://thehill.com/changing-america/respect/equality/3261964-the-five-states-with-the-most-book-bans/amp/

    But, regardless, all banning books does is makes sure that kids read them.

  467. 467
    Fred Hickson says:

    The comparison between ammonium nitrate and an assault weapon is apt. Why restrict and monitor sales of the one and not the other? Where’s the logic?

  468. 468
    Fred Hickson says:

    OT

    @ KF

    Michael Manley. I see he is still regarded with affection by many Jamaicans.

  469. 469
    jerry says:

    One of the most prescient articles written period. Came out on Friday.

    https://newideal.aynrand.org/fossil-future-a-powerful-must-read-defense-of-fossil-fuels/

    It is about Climate change and the hypocrisy around the debate. This debate is similar to the hypocrisy on the gun debate or the evolution debate. Could be applied to the race or gender debate or debate over women or any identity politics.

    Contains an ethical system based on truth and humans. Written by an Ayn Rand advocate so it cannot be religious.

    Aside: I am currently reading/listening to Epstein’s book now. He describes himself as a philosopher and as such one who understands truth.

    We waste out time here taking the anti ID people seriously. They are clowns but yet much of the comments are used to answer their banality.

  470. 470
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: Israel

    https://www.foxnews.com/politics/uvalde-shooting-israel-school-security-methods-model-us

    Israel is on the front lines and has demonstrated many effective methods, paid for in blood. In a world of nihilistic blood lust, let us listen, on BA’s point 7:

    There have been six terrorist attacks on Israeli schools since 1974. That low figure can be explained by the multiple layers of security Israel employs and the engagement of civil society in aiding the nation’s law enforcement.

    David Hazony, a writer, and commentator on Israeli and American affairs and a father to eleven children, told Fox News Digital that the country “puts effort into identifying potential assailants through behavioral profiling.”

    Israel could not prevent attacks if its efforts were based solely on armed security guards at each school, he said. Israel “invests heavily in monitoring profiles of people,” Hazony continued.

    It has a “complex, multi-layered approach” to security that uses intelligence networks to examine the acquisition of weapons and social media activity, he said.

    Yigal Arbiv, who was in charge of security at Tchernichovsky Junior High School in the Israeli coastal city of Netanya for 16 years, told Fox News Digital it is important that the “head of security [for a school] be given authorization to do everything” to provide safety for the children and staff . . . his system employed a “spotter 50 meters from school” who patrolled the area and kept an eye out. Visitors to the school “could only come from one direction,” he said.

    A fence surrounds the school and cameras are in place all over the facility. “Hot spots” can be manually activated when a problem arises, sending a message to the head of security and staff, said Arbiv, who now runs the Israeli Krav Maga & Security Training company (I.K.M.A).

    “Everyone who goes into the school needs to go through a metal detector, like at an airport, and sign his name,” the security expert said, adding that the “school has one exit and one entrance… nobody comes to the school without the head of security knowing about it. We do not allow people not connected to school to come inside.”

    There are also “barricades around the school, so people can’t drive into it,” he said. Palestinian terrorists have used vehicles to carry out ramming attacks in Israel.

    Arbiv, who said he has trained police in the U.S., added that a large school compound also requires a guard on a motorcycle.

    Later, we see:

    Another idea gaining traction is a volunteer force to add more security to schools. Leading that effort is Brig. Gen. (Res.) Amir Avivi, the founder and CEO of the Israel Defense and Security Forum (IDSF) NGO. He told Fox News Digital that, “At every school in Israel you have a guard at the entrance monitoring people entering.”

    Sounds familiar?

    KF

  471. 471
    ET says:

    Fred Hickson:

    The comparison between ammonium nitrate and an assault weapon is apt.

    Not really. People can still buy ammonium nitrate. And they can store it. All that is needed is planning. But that is moot as basic chemistry allows us to produce explosives at home. Next up- restrict teaching chemistry.

    Since Columbine millions of abortions have ended the lives of humans. And yes, there is a connection. We cannot have the senseless slaughter of our most innocent and vulnerable and then complain about gun violence. It is beyond hypocritical. But the left is full of hypocrites.

  472. 472
    JHolo says:

    KF: Sounds familiar?

    And is completely unnecessary if the US would simply implement some very basic gun control legislation.

  473. 473
    ET says:

    We have basic gun control regulations. And in the USA it is the responsibility of each STATE to regulate the guns there.

  474. 474
    JHolo says:

    ET: Since Columbine millions of abortions have ended the lives of humans.

    A well known debating strategy when your logic on the issue is not sound id to attempt to conflate the issue with an unrelated issue.

  475. 475
    ET says:

    JHolo- You don’t understand logic. And your quote-mining underscores your cowardice.

  476. 476
    kairosfocus says:

    JH, on the contrary the issues are directly connected, as was repeatedly pointed out, just ignored studiously. Your denial does not change that. A government that instituted democide now at 63 million under false colour of law, fighting every attempt to stop the holocaust is now pushing to disarm the heartland, where “coincidentally” the centre of opposition to the ongoing democide is. Such a government is nihilistic, lawless and has shown a long train of abuses and usurpations, being resistant to remonstrance. No wonder disaffection has set in, and attempted mass disarmament of the public and demonisation of those who would object, in the further context of power backed red guards and dirty elections will not trigger meek compliance, it will pass the existential threat red line. The situation is non linear and unstable, KF

  477. 477
    JHolo says:

    KF and ET, if you choose to hold the safety of school children, concert goers, shoppers, theatre goers and many others hostage to your demand to make abortions illegal, that is your choice. Unethical and immoral, but still you have the freedom to make that choice. Personally, I prefer to address the problem at hand. Which is the disproportionate mass shootings and gun violence in the US.

  478. 478
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: At about the same time . . .

    https://wchstv.com/news/local/victim-hospitalized-in-charleston-shooting

    Police: Woman with pistol killed man who shot at crowd of people in Charleston

    by STAFF REPORTSWednesday, May 25th 2022

    Police said a woman who was lawfully carrying a pistol shot and killed a man who began shooting at a crowd of people Wednesday night in Charleston.

    Dennis Butler was killed after allegedly shooting at dozens of people attending a graduation party Wednesday near the Vista View Apartment complex. No injuries were reported from those at the party.

    Investigators said Butler was warned about speeding in the area with children present before he left. He later returned with an AR-15-style firearm and began firing into the crowd before he was shot and killed.

    “Instead of running from the threat, she engaged with the threat and saved several lives last night,” Charleston Police Department Chief of Detectives Tony Hazelett said.

    Officers did not go into detail, but said Butler did have an extensive criminal history.

    Hazelett said no charges will be filed against the woman.

    This was what, the day after the TX incident but it does not fit the obvious narrative.

    It does fit the pattern seen from Wisconsin, of the growth of a violent criminal subculture that is not going to go poof if the general public are disarmed.

    KF

    PS, as for, oh we regulate fertiliser, firearms are also heavily regulated. In Israel, the requisites of suicide bombings are heavily regulated or outright illegal, but that did not stop the rise of a campaign. Similarly, for gun attacks. Right now the UK is busy trying to regulate knives and there have been headlines about knife crime. BTW, it is shockingly easy to make explosives with a reasonable knowledge of Chemistry. Fuzes and detonators are accessible from chem and electronics, with cheap computing power I shudder at what can be done. Where of course we must not forget the fly in bombings of 9/11.

  479. 479
    kairosfocus says:

    JH, barefaced lying and slander, by projection of attitudes that are not there as should be obvious to any responsible lawful person. I cannot convince you that attempted disarmament on the scale required would not work and would trigger an existential threat response causing chaos in the US and horrific geostrategic consequences globally, but that is because of your willful refusal to listen. I have also taken time to inform you of what happened with decades of extreme measures in my native land, measures that have failed as admitted by no less a figure than Trinity the most deadly cop of all. The demonisation you project is further demonstration of the underlying reason why the disarmament push will predictably trigger a 1775 style existential threat response. I suspect the British Governor did not understand that Massachusetts had faced Indian War, and thought he could round up a few rebels and destroy their arsenals. Instead he got civil war, then world war that Britain could not win so cut its losses by ceding the Americans their declared independence. I outlined that history above, but of course you ignored it. Disarmament is a reckless pipe dream, but target hardening, mobilising the militia and taking every violent offence with a weapon or potential weapon (to include vehicles and fertiliser or kitchen knives viewed as ersatz bayonets) as an offence under UCMJ with trial by court martial is quite feasible. Democratic accountability would come through coordination with the county shire reffs [= sheriffs] , local state legislatures and the federal Govt acting under Constitution. Already, every able bodied man of relevant age is a member of the unorganised militia and is subject to conscription. Your lies show disregard for truth, right reason, prudence and fairness, reflecting the lawlessness of evolutionary materialistic scientism and fellow travellers, which opens the door to nihilism and lawless oligarchy. You stand exposed. KF

  480. 480
    kairosfocus says:

    PS, on Shire Reff or Reeve:

    https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Shire+reeve

    The modern office of sheriff in the United States descends from a one-thousand-year-old English tradition: a “shire-reeve” (shire-keeper) is the oldest appointment of the English crown. Because county governments were typically the first established units of government in newly settled American territories, sheriffs were among the first elected public officials in an area and thus developed a leading role in local law enforcement.

    A dichotomy frequently exists today between a sheriff’s jurisdiction and the jurisdiction of a local police department. A metropolitan area may encompass an entire county or more; police departments and sheriffs will often maintain concurrent jurisdiction in the overlapping area. A sheriff may assume that a local police department will do its duty in enforcing the law, but the primary obligation rests with the sheriff and requires him to act when evidence of neglect of that duty exists.

    Some state constitutions specifically provide for the office of sheriff, and state legislatures frequently establish conditions of office. Sheriffs are typically chosen in a county election. To serve as sheriff, an individual must usually meet certain requirements: residence within the jurisdiction, no criminal record, U.S. citizenship, and compliance with provisions guarding against nepotism. Sometimes officeholders must also satisfy certain age, physical, and educational requirements. A sheriff typically takes an oath and posts a bond upon taking office to ensure the faithful performance of the duties of the office. Compensation typically consists of commissions or fees for particular services performed, a fixed salary, or a combination of fees and salary.

    State statutes or state constitutions regulate many duties of a sheriff and emphasize preserving the peace and enforcing criminal laws. Sheriffs arrest and commit to jail felons and other lawbreakers, including pretrial detainees and sentenced prisoners. They transport prisoners to state penal facilities and mental patients to state commitment facilities. In addition, a sheriff is usually responsible for the custody and care of the county courthouse and the jail, attends upon courts of record in serving process, and often has the power to summon jurors. As an officer of the court, a sheriff is subject to a court’s orders and direction. Sheriffs also have the power to serve process, including summons, mesne (intermediate) process, and final process . . .

  481. 481
    JHolo says:

    KF, you are either incapable of reading for content or you are willfully misrepresenting what I have said. I hope it is the former.

    I have repeatedly said that I am not proposing disarming the US citizens, except in cases where they obtained their weapons illegally, used them or stored them inappropriately, have a criminal record, or illegally modified them. For all future sales their should be a waiting period, a background check, limits on the style of weapon and capacity.

    Obviously there is no point in me trying to further discuss this with you as you have clearly demonstrated that you are unwilling to make an attempt to understand the arguments presented and will only accept agreement. That does not make for a productive and constructive discussion.

    I wish you well.

  482. 482
    kairosfocus says:

    JH, doubling down on lying.

    This is what you said, after hundreds of comments which would have made any responsible person know better:

    if you choose to hold the safety of school children, concert goers, shoppers, theatre goers and many others hostage to your demand to make abortions illegal, that is your choice.

    First, why should such people be hostage to a demand to “make” abortions illegal? Ans, an implied threat of onward attacks on such places. That is, my pointing out that attempted disarmament will be taken as an existential threat i/l/o an existing pattern of nihilistic behaviour has been wrenched.

    Second, abortion on demand is already an intrinsic crime, willful shedding of innocent blood here under colour of law, enabled by a state to the tune of 25,000/week, cumulatively 63 million. One does not make it a crime, one cannot unmake it a crime, it is criminal by its very nature. (That there may be very rare cases where in effect self defence may apply does not invalidate this point.)

    Third, the actual point made is that acts under false colour of law — now admitted by a later generation of Supreme Court Judge — backed up by resistance to attempted correction, are already a long train of abuses and usurpations. In the cause of the onward slaughter of millions that enables the far worse global toll a million per week. Posing on rights, rulings under colour of law and claimed power of choice over one’s body — half the time the unborn child is not the same sex as his mother — cannot change an inherent crime.

    Fourth, a state with a bloody track record like that has forfeited the presumption of good intent. Hence, long train of abuses and usurpations. Accordingly,

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, [cf Rom 1:18 – 21, 2:14 – 15; note, law as “the highest reason,” per Cicero on received consensus], that all men are created equal [–> note, equality of humanity], that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights [–> thus there are correlative duties and freedoms framed by the balance], that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. –That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, –That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security . . .

    Fifth, it is further speech with disregard to truth on your part that disarmament is not intended. There is obvious wish to make entire categories of weapons illegal and to confiscate, as has been directly implied by slanderous statements of officials about the made up term, assault weapons etc. BTW, in WW2, it was shown that bolt action rifles can be modified into automatic weapons, and Browning’s first machine gun modified a lever action mechanism, and obviously powder for a muzzle loading single shot weapon can be used as a bomb so once precedent is set, there is no limit.

    Sixth, I have good reason to infer that a nihilistic state cannot be trusted and will not be trusted by those who have seen the long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing designs of lawless oligarchy.

    Seventh, I have every right to point out the nonlinearities and potential catastrophies including highlighting history and my own experience in my homeland where confiscation, tight regulation and state of emergency measures were undertaken for decades.

    Eighth, in that context, I have the further right to point to what on the pattern of Israel etc, could work. In the case in West Virginia, did work; in Texas, manifestly could have worked.

    KF

  483. 483
    ET says:

    It isn’t my fault that the lefties can’t see the problem. Abortions are nothing but a mass slaughter of our most innocent and vulnerable. That has consequences. The media over-hyping climate alarmism also has consequences.

    And, AGAIN, mistakes were made in Texas. That JHolo and JVL refuse to understand that, speaks volumes.

  484. 484
    kairosfocus says:

    PS, to further document my point, Wikipedia testifying against interest:

    The Charlton automatic rifle was a fully automatic conversion of the Lee–Enfield rifle, designed by New Zealander Philip Charlton in 1941 to act as a substitute for the Bren and Lewis gun light machine guns which were in severely short supply at the time.

    Description

    The original Charlton automatic rifles were converted from obsolete Lee–Metford and magazine Lee–Enfield rifles dating from as early as the Boer War,[1] and were intended for use as semi-automatic rifles with the full-automatic capabilities retained for emergency use.[2] It used the 10-round Lee–Enfield magazines and modified 30-round Bren magazines. The weapon was never intended for use as a frontline combat weapon, instead being designed and adopted primarily for the New Zealand Home Guard.[3]

    There were two versions of the Charlton: the New Zealand version, as designed and manufactured by Charlton Motor Workshops in Hastings, and a version produced in Australia by Electrolux, using the SMLE Mk III* for conversion.[4] The two designs differed markedly in external appearance (amongst other things, the New Zealand Charlton had a forward pistol grip and bipod,[5] whilst the Australian lacked this, making it lighter and cleaner in appearance[6]), but shared the same operating mechanism.

    Approximately 1,500 Charlton automatic rifles were manufactured in New Zealand

    Description https://www.forgottenweapons.com/charlton-automatic-rifle/

    KF

  485. 485
    kairosfocus says:

    ET, yes. Further to which, I am putting a hidden agenda road map on the table. Existential threat is a serious question that some refuse to recognise. Should I mention the STEN is so easy to make the Polish underground manufactured it in occupied Poland? We are talking controls on every machine shop, mechanics shop, even garage with machine tools. KF

  486. 486
    Seversky says:

    /
    If a defense of the private ownership of AR-15 type rifles is that it will enable an armed citizenry to resist tyranny I would suggest that is somewhat far-fetched in this day and age.

    The armed forces of the United States include infantry trained, armed and equipped for a modern battlefield. Apart from semi-automatic pistols and M4/M5 assault rifles they can also call upon squad automatic weapons (SAW) or general-purpose machine-guns (GPMG), heavy machine-guns such as the Browning .50 caliber, light mortars and a variety of shoulder-launched guided-missiles. They can be transported to the battlefield in armored infantry fighting vehicles armed with automatic cannon of 20mm caliber and upwards. They will be supported by main battle tanks armed with 120/130mm cannon. They can call on fire support from light, medium and heavy artillery and multiple-launch rocket systems. They can call on air support from helicopter gunships and ground-attack aircraft armed with automatic cans and guide missiles.

    Anyone who thinks that having an AR-15 and a couple of thousand rounds of ammunition is going make a serious difference against the firepower and tactics of a modern army has been taking Red Dawn way too seriously.

    The wounds inflicted by the high-velocity 5.56mm rounds fired by AR-15s are truly horrific and there is no justification for such firepower on self-defense grounds. If you must carry a firearm for personal protection, the 9mm pistol or carbine or the 12-gauge shotgun are more than sufficient.

    As for Heller, this summary of the decision reads in part as follows:

    (f) None of the Court’s precedents forecloses the Court’s interpretation. Neither United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U. S. 542 , nor Presser v. Illinois, 116 U. S. 252 , refutes the individual-rights interpretation. United States v. Miller, 307 U. S. 174 , does not limit the right to keep and bear arms to militia purposes, but rather limits the type of weapon to which the right applies to those used by the militia, i.e., those in common use for lawful purposes. Pp. 47–54.

    2. Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues. The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms. Miller’s holding that the sorts of weapons protected are those “in common use at the time” finds support in the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons. Pp. 54–56.

    One again, society has both a right and a duty to protect the rights of all citizens from the harmful exercise of a particular right by one group of citizens.

  487. 487
    kairosfocus says:

    Sev, do you understand that if the balloon goes up through obstinately reckless nihilistic policy leading to clear existential threat, the military and police will split? And, existential threat is general threat, so claims implying lawless excuseless uprising are moot, cf 1775 – 6. Further to which, you are looking at Balkan style disintegration and a spiral into chaos. Then, there will be geostrategic vultures waiting to pounce. We already see evidence China is moving closer to a move on Taiwan towards the sort of blue ocean breakout the Germans sought in two world wars. A real mess. KF

    PS, semi automatic rifles are not oddities. I suspect they may now be about the most common ones.

  488. 488
    JHolo says:

    Sev: If a defense of the private ownership of AR-15 type rifles is that it will enable an armed citizenry to resist tyranny I would suggest that is somewhat far-fetched in this day and age.

    If I am reading this correctly, resisting government tyranny appears to be the justification. What is ironic is that the same people who oppose any gun control, also supported the only president in recent history who wanted to use the army against the citizens.

  489. 489
    kairosfocus says:

    JH, your credibility, for cause, is now nil. KF

  490. 490
    JHolo says:

    Kinder Surprise eggs are banned in the US because the toy inside poses a choking hazard. In spite of no American kids ever choking on one.

    Cracker Jacks stopped putting the toys in the boxes because of the risk of kids choking.

    Lawn darts and clackers have been banned because of potential risk to kids.

    Lead based paints are banned because lead is sweet, and a strong neurotoxin, and infants used to chew on windowsills because of the sweet taste.

    We are quick to act when we identify products that pose a risk to our kids. And rightly so. But AR15 style guns, which have been used to kill numerous kids, are still allowed.

  491. 491
    JHolo says:

    Drop-side cribs we’re banned when they were blamed for 32 infant deaths.

    Rub bumpers were banned in many states because they contributed to 48 baby deaths.

    Baby and infant car seats are highly regulated due to past safety concerns.

    BPA and phthalates banned for baby products due to risk.

  492. 492
    relatd says:

    An observation at this point in the “discussion.” How many live were saved because of this discussion?

  493. 493
    JHolo says:

    Relatd@492, a very good point. It appears that no lives are saved after any mass shooting, regardless of the millions of words expended. And it is a certainty that nothing said here will make a damn bit of difference. Within a month or two we will be reading about another mass shooting at a school.

  494. 494
    kairosfocus says:

    Relatd, how long does it take to build critical mass for a policy analysis? What does that require? What happens when each policy option will cost, especially lives? [For example, extensive private ownership of vehicles both saves and costs lives.] KF

  495. 495
    ET says:

    We pointed out the failures in this discussion. The failures that led to 2 mass shootings in less than a month. And others have observed those failures, too. Next, we have to correct those failures.

  496. 496
    relatd says:

    KF at 494,

    WHO is going to see any of the comments posted here? Policymakers?

    No “critical mass” is needed with this incident. This has happened before. If nothing gets done then nothing gets done. There is no formula for this. Those in a position to improve things will act but there is no guarantee of positive results going into effect based on previous incidents.

  497. 497
    relatd says:

    ET at 495,

    Exactly who will correct any failures?

  498. 498
    kairosfocus says:

    There was a third attempted one stopped by a lady with a gun.

  499. 499
    TimR says:

    Jerry:
    You say this kind of thing a bit:

    “Because the US is unique in the developed world.
    No other developed nation comes close to having the ethnic makeup and financial attractions as the US.
    Literally half the world would like to live in the US – the only drawback is bringing their families.”

    Do you actually know anything about the rest of the world? Are you familiar with the ethnic makeup of the countries the US might be compared to? Have you studied the rates of poverty and the standard of living stats in other countries?

    I am afraid, that if the rest of the world ever looked at the US as you imagine we do, that finished a long time ago. I won’t say anymore, as I wouldn’t want to offend any of the millions of marvellous people who call the US home (some of whom are very good friends of mine) but you are living in some glorious, fantastical, world of your imagination I’m afraid.

  500. 500
    kairosfocus says:

    Relatd, first, you have no idea who is directly or indirectly influenced through UD discussions. Second, you should already know that more or less the expert on the paradigmatic case, Columbine, is president of UD. Third, you are evading a key policy making issue that goes to the heart of cases like this: how do you decide when all relevant policy actions will BOTH cost and save lives? (I gave the example of mass private ownership of vehicles, which gives a focus to several issues including the fallacy of centralised policy wisdom and unintended consequences, thence costs of reversion to de facto oligarchy aka nomenklatura. That’s before you get to what is actually at stake here, policy agendas and intent of a manifestly nihilistic power class tied to long trains of abuses and usurpations that incrementally compromise and undermine liberty: frog in a gradually heated pot. Let me add, consequences of the rise of legal positivism. Not to mention, create a crisis tactics highlighted by the contrast of Texas and Wisconsin.) KF

    PS, let me add, that when general consensus is not possible, balance of factions and formation of a critical mass is what decides vand sustains policy. Too often that is shaped by manipulation. A long time ago now I directed you to Ac 27 and/or Plato’s parable of the ship of state. What have you drawn from these?

  501. 501
    relatd says:

    KF at 500,

    You also have no idea. I suggest avoiding guesses and assuming things. It’s a bit like hoping total strangers here are being read by anyone in a position to do something in real life, including any experts here. People want action, not talk. Do you understand? Action, carefully thought through and then implemented. The last incident like this resulted in no action. Investigation, yes, but no action.

    That’s the point I’m making.

  502. 502
    jerry says:

    You say this kind of thing a bit:

    Because it’s true.

    I just repeat the obvious. Most are not interested in the obvious here.

    By the way I lived a year in New Zealand. In Christchurch. Several years ago.

    I have been to all 7 continents twice.

  503. 503
    kairosfocus says:

    Relatd, actually, I do but you and watching hostiles have no proper need to know. Ironically, you are projecting to others by assumption. You are also now using typical concern troll tactics of subject switching that serve to distract from and frustrate serious discussion. But that too is part of the key picture. Refocussing, this is directly analogous to mass private ownership of vehicles, which both costs and saves lives, and the power structures to block such liberty also costs lives, typically far more that such seems to save. So, one of the keystone policies of constitutional, representative democracy, is liberty unless there is manifest reason to restrict same without costing more than it purportedly saves. I think it was Franklin who noted that those who surrender freedom to gain safety end up with neither. Here, too, we need to reckon with the manifest issue of a nihilistic state with serious blood guilt warping policy making. Further to which, policy analysis towards soundness is not to be equated with empty talk. The Ship of state against backdrop of the Peloponnesian War and Luke’s discussion of the ship’s counsel at Fair Havens are deeply instructive; including the action of Mr Moneybags and his bought and paid for technico; a case where Bible Study is laying out key lessons of history and policy and consequences. including decision making under risk. I know for fact that had those lessons been heeded by policy leaders fifty years past my native land would not be where it is today. KF

  504. 504
    relatd says:

    To all reading –

    I’m not here to stop any discussion. I urge anyone who thinks they have good ideas that could save lives to contact those who can make those changes in the real world. Lives could be saved.

  505. 505
    JHolo says:

    What I would be interested in is what KF, or ET, or Jerry, etc. would say to a mother of a child murdered by a mass shooter with regards to the right to own a gun being more important than the life of her child.

    OK, let me hear the discussion you would have with her. Maybe it would go something like this:

    “I’m sorry, but the need for the populace to defend itself against a government tyranny, which we have yet to see, far outweighs the right of your son/daughter to not to be shot by someone who has a gun purchased to prevent the tyranny of the government.

    My only wish is that the mother has a gun handy when you try to justify your beliefs.

  506. 506
    ET says:

    Relatd- the people in charge of security will correct the failures, duh.

  507. 507
    ET says:

    I never said the right to own a gun is more important than any life. JHolo is just proud to be a coward.

  508. 508
    JHolo says:

    ET: I never said the right to own a gun is more important than any life. JHolo is just proud to be a coward.

    Typically I don’t respond to those who are Incapable of communicating in a mature fashion, but I am intrigued. What restrictions on gun ownership would be acceptable to you? See if you can respond without sounding like a jerk.

  509. 509
    kairosfocus says:

    JH, lying again to set up a strawman. The reality is that there are policy choices — too many of them — where each option saves some lives but costs others. In some cases, the cost is not obvious. A good example is a similar case: mass private ownership of vehicles both costs and saves lives. What should policy be? Or, what would you say to the mother of a child mowed down by the driver in Wisconsin — and an 8 year old was murdered by being mowed down — that my right to have a car outweighs the life of your child. That is nonsense, but it is directly parallel. Lurking behind, is the trend to the all powerful state that turns freedoms and ownership into privileges granted at sufferance. Lawless oligarchy beckons. The dilemma you presented is false and the projection is a slander. KF

  510. 510
    ET says:

    LoL! @ JHolo- all of your responses prove that you are a jerk. In Massachusetts you have to take a firearm safety course. You need to get a certificate saying that you passed. Then you need to set up and have an interview with the local police department. Face to face. All along there are background checks being done. Only after getting beyond those obstacles will you get an FID.

    Criminal free, over 21, responsible, accountable references- all checked off. Shake their tree of life and see if anything rotten comes out. Other than that we already have restrictions on the types of guns people can own, legally.

  511. 511
    ET says:

    The person who propped open the door, and left it open, along with the police, need to go speak with the parents of the children and teachers murdered.

  512. 512
    Paxx says:

    JHolo: What restrictions on gun ownership would be acceptable to you?

    More of a wholistic solution would take care of a lot of issues:

    1. Make the age of majority 21 years of age.
    2. No alcohol and tobacco sales to those under the age of majority.
    3. No gun sales to those under the age of majority.
    4. No voting under the age of majority.
    5. Make high schools as secure as airports and court houses.
    6. Ban all social media for those under 20 years old.
    7. No automobile licenses for those under 20 years old.
    8. Harsh penalties, including immediate and final expusion, of public school bullies.

    That would be a good start.

    Paxx.

  513. 513
    kairosfocus says:

    ET, in the Uvalde case, the shooter was living with grands. Apparently grandfather has a criminal, felony record. He not only cannot own a gun but cannot live in a house with a gun. So, the inference is the shooter sneaked the weapons. But this brings out that criminals will circumvent law. It also shows that there are many laws in place but the lawless will flout same. BTW, a very good question is how was this stuff paid for by whom and how did he get training, which may point in directions of a criminal subculture, likely drugs smuggling or the like but possibly even more horrific directions. KF

    PS, I see policy choice is still not being addressed: how does one choose in a case where every realistic alternative both costs and saves lives? With, mass private vehicular ownership as a classic case. Where, a hidden issue is the emergence of centralised state power that can easily pose principal agent dilemmas for the public. Of course it means on every branch of the multi- lemma you can be criticised by the agenda driven as not caring about lives. Nor is this new, it is a feature of Plato’s parable of the cave and brings out the dangers of lawless manipulative oligarchy.

    PPS, the general public needs to be educated about Plato’s parable and Luke’s microcosm in Ac 27 to understand responsibilities of citizens officials, media etc in stabilising a sound constitutional democracy. I believe this also points to the issue of built in law thus centrality of the civil peace of justice marked by due balance of rights, freedoms and duties. The point that eternal vigilance is a cost of liberty and the duties of responsible independent media and experts to report soundly instead of spinning etc are also relevant. The matter of taking education captive and using it to manipulate also comes up.

  514. 514
    kairosfocus says:

    PPPS, he also sent messages that pointed to dangers. Why was there no effective safety net for a troubled young man.

  515. 515
    kairosfocus says:

    Paxx, a key to this is, there were a lot of lockdowns tied to border smuggling; which ties to another policy debate and flash point. So there was likely lockdown/alert fatigue. Reportedly a teacher opened a normally locked back door and propped it open just a minute before the shooter used it and similarly 111 112 were not locked internally, allowing the shooter to capture the defences like the forts Vaux and Douaumont at Verdun; taking back was potentially costly. Of course all facilities must have a second exit in case of fire. And here we see that all options may save or cost lives. KF

  516. 516
    kairosfocus says:

    ET, the teacher who propped the door may be one of the dead. The chief and remember this was an education district department, has some explaining to do. In the UK culture, he would have resigned. KF

  517. 517
    Bob O'H says:

    Part of Barry’s argument in the OP is that gun bans don’t remove guns from circulation. I’ve just seen this report mentioned on twitter. The short version: New South Wales police collected over 2800 firearms in the past 12 months. This was partly because they declared an amnesty so people could give in weapons that were illegal without consequences. Apparently there are about a million guns in NSW, so this is 0.28% of them.

    I wouldn’t say that this on it’s own would solve the gun problems, but would be part of the solution, alongside improved background checks, limits on the size of weapons and magazines, buybacks of any weapons that have just been made illegal etc.

  518. 518
    jerry says:

    The short version: New South Wales police collected over 2800 firearms in the past 12 months

    These have been tried several places in the US and have had similar effects.

    They are irrelevant so why make this comment?

    improved background checks

    Is anyone against a background check that would have prevented this murderer from having a gun?

    Until someone seriously addresses the actual issues all are talking past each other. That’s what people do here.

    Nobody enjoys losing a loved one unnecessarily but this emotional issue is the only constant one being raised. This type of occurrence have happened hundreds of millions of times since the world has began. It’s just when it becomes very visual/vivid, people don’t like it. If it’s hidden they are not upset.

    As I said this has nothing to do with guns killing innocent people. Innocent people are killed by the tens of thousands every day, often children, and no one cares. In fact the ones trying to get rid of guns because of the children advocate other positions that have killed children by the millions.

    Hypocrisy

  519. 519
    Bob O'H says:

    Jerry – in what way is it irrelevant?

  520. 520
    jerry says:

    in what way is it irrelevant

    Multiple!

    By your own admission, it is trivial.

    It does not change the fact that this person wanted to kill someone. So It does not address the relevant problem. Could this murderer have found other ways to kill? They often do.

    It does not address the deterrent effect of guns in the hands of responsible people both from demented individuals or an oppressive government.

    It fails to recognize that the vast majority of guns are not used for violence. It is actually an indictment of those calling for the confiscation as they govern nearly all of the areas where gun violence takes place. Maybe those advocating for gun abolition should not be allowed to govern anywhere?

  521. 521
    Bob O'H says:

    Ah, we’re talking past each other. Read the first sentence of what I wrote: neither of the reasons you give are relevant to the issue of whether laws can remove guns from circulation.

  522. 522
    ET says:

    It wasn’t a gun ban law that removed the 2800 guns from new south wales

  523. 523
    Bob O'H says:

    Not directly: it was the way it was used, i.e. enforcement and encouragement. As with any law, it’s not enough to just have the law, it needs to be backed up with action.

  524. 524
    jerry says:

    Read the first sentence of what I wrote

    Which is

    Part of Barry’s argument in the OP is that gun bans don’t remove guns from circulation

    Here is what Barry said

    1. There are hundreds of millions of guns in the US.

    2. Even assuming for the sake of argument that it would be a desirable thing to do, no gun control law can eliminate all or even a small fraction of those guns.

    You posted that NSW eliminated only a very small fraction of guns. So are we arguing over what a small fraction is? It sounds like we are arguing over whether a “t” has been crossed or not.

    I actually believe Barry is wrong. Gun control measures do reduce guns in certain areas.

    But I agree with him that the desired results are definitely not positive.

    As I said whatever the intent of your comment, irrelevant.

    Aside: commenters keep bringing up irrelevant issues.

  525. 525
    ET says:

    The USA has had gun buy-back programs, Bob. And no, buy-back programs do not ban guns. People handed in their shite, not their good weapons.

  526. 526
    Bob O'H says:

    Jerry – I agree, we’re arguing over what a small fraction is (in essence, whether enough guns would be removed from circulation to make a difference). But again, why is this irrelevant?

  527. 527
    JHolo says:

    Jerry: It does not address the deterrent effect of guns in the hands of responsible people both from demented individuals or an oppressive government.

    Or the deterrent effect of restricting the access to firearms. It seems to work in most other countries.

  528. 528
    kairosfocus says:

    JH, is there a large drugs trade? Ans, yes. Can it smuggle guns? Ans, yes. How do I know, the automatic weapons in my homeland, every one, are illegal and that has been so since the Gold Street massacre, 1980. life in prison in the courts, likely death if in a shootout. About 100 miles from this town a similar situation is playing out in Mexico. The problem is criminality. KF

  529. 529
    jerry says:

    But again, why is this irrelevant?

    It wouldn’t accomplish anything.

    Taking away guns from people who will not use them to harm others is not going to stop people who will use them to harm others. It’s token and irrelevant for two reasons.

  530. 530
    jerry says:

    It seems to work in most other countries.

    Again, irrelevant.

    There is no other country in the world like the US both 1) in its ability to affect the bad guys from causing harm and 2) in its ethnic makeup that is causing the internal extremely localized violence. The economic success of the US draws people from impoverished countries with violent backgrounds to come here. Not true anywhere else to even close to the same extent.

    I suggest if you disagree on anything to point out where some other country exists.

  531. 531
    JHolo says:

    An interesting article on gun violence in different countries.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2022-us-gun-violence-world-comparison/

    The US is ranked amongst such shining beacons as Mali, Botswana, Namibia and Argentina.

    Here are a few numbers:
    Gun deaths per 100,000 people:
    -> US: 3.96
    -> Canada: 0.47
    -> Australia: 0.19
    -> New Zealand: 0.15
    -> UK: 0.041
    -> Japan: 0.021

  532. 532
    jerry says:

    gun violence in different countries

    Completely irrelevant.

    You refuse to deal with relevant issues. Why? That’s the interesting question.

    Check out homicide rates by country. US way down list. And in areas of US where most guns are it would be really low.

    https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/murder-rate-by-country

    What are they using to kill people in all these other places?

    If you are wondering why I am so sure, it’s because I’ve read books full of statistics on it. It’s so easy to disprove nearly everything the left advocates whether it’s on guns, crime, climate, race, gender, or other hot button issues. If what they propose were any good, conservatives would have recommended it a long time ago.

    Strange? No the left has different objectives and they don’t include the well being of people.

    Ironic thing, most liberals haven’t a clue about what’s going on. But it sounds good which is why elites on left advocate them and their useful idiots run with them.

    Aside: iD is only a minor issue to the left but this too is based on lies as we all know here. But it’s way down the list of what the left considers important.

  533. 533
    JHolo says:

    Jerry: Check out homicide rates by country. US way down list.

    OK. Let’s look at the same countries:
    Homicide rate per 100,000:
    -> US: 4.96
    -> Canada: 1.76
    ->Australia: 0.89
    -> New Zealand: 0.74
    -> UK: 1.2
    -> Japan: 0.26

    The US homicide rates puts it in the same league as Lithuania, Angola, Kenya, Cuba, Kazakhstan and Sudan.

  534. 534
    jerry says:

    OK. Let’s look at the same countries:
    Homicide rate per 100,000

    You make is so easy.

    You just fell into the trap. I claim you use only irrelevant statistics and then you jump in with irrelevant statistics.

    If you took the numbers for Canada, New Zealand and Australia and compared it to with where the US gun owners are, they would probably be higher.

    As I said I know where the gun deaths are. They are definitely there but they are not in any place similar to the countries you list.

  535. 535
    kairosfocus says:

    Folks,

    its time for some further facts. Let us start with, no duty to protect:

    https://amgreatness.com/2022/05/28/no-duty-to-protect/

    With every school shooting—covered prominently, though not commonplace as they may seem—comes a demand for surrender. And with each of these demands comes the refusal of the law-abiding citizen to forfeit his rights in the name of safety. For that safety, we now know—because we saw it with our own eyes—is subject to the timorous decisions of bureaucrats with guns and badges and terrible judgment.

    The real outrage is that the protectors—the “good guys with guns”—failed to protect. In fact, though they surely had the moral duty to save those 21 women and children, they did not have a legal or constitutional duty to do so, as the Supreme Court has said time and again. The police chose to hold back out of an abundance of caution—“officer safety” being the watchword. What’s worse, they prevented parents from entering the school at their own risk to rescue their own children.

    Remember, abolish the police and acts to cripple police? Put that with what we just say. Mix in what was done to a couple who brandished one empty and one non functional firearm in the face of a crowd threatening arson and death while trespassing in part on private property.

    If the police have no duty to protect and people are disarmed in the face of red guard mobs much less nihilistic mad men seeking soft targets for mass murder, WHO is left to protect? Especially when, where seconds count for life/death, the police, demonstrably are minutes to an hour out. In this case, when they were literally outside the door. Even, with children trapped with the shooter calling 911 repeatedly and begging for intervention.

    Where, too, 23 years after Columbine showed that cordon and negotiate is no longer valid.

    Let me pause and clip on what the red guard mobs did:

    https://www.britannica.com/topic/Red-Guards

    Red Guards, Chinese (Pinyin) Hongweibing or (Wade-Giles romanization) Hung-wei-ping, in Chinese history, groups of militant university and high school students formed into paramilitary units as part of the Cultural Revolution (1966–76). These young people often wore green jackets similar to the uniforms of the Chinese army at the time, with red armbands attached to one of the sleeves. They were formed under the auspices of the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) in 1966 in order to help party chairman Mao Zedong combat “revisionist” authorities—i.e., those party leaders Mao considered as being insufficiently revolutionary. Mao was thus making a bid to regain control of the CCP from his colleagues, but the Red Guards who responded in August 1966 to his summons fancied themselves as new revolutionary rebels pledged to eliminating all remnants of the old culture in China, as well as purging all supposedly bourgeois elements within the government. Several million Red Guards journeyed to Beijing to meet with Mao in eight massive demonstrations late in 1966, and the total number of Red Guards throughout the country may have reached 11 million at some point.

    While engaging in marches, meetings, and frenzied propagandizing, Red Guard units attacked and persecuted local party leaders as well as schoolteachers and school officials, other intellectuals, and persons of traditional views. Several hundred thousand people died in the course of these persecutions. By early 1967 Red Guard units were overthrowing existing party authorities in towns, cities, and entire provinces. These units soon began fighting among themselves, however, as various factions vied for power amidst each one’s claims that it was the true representative of Maoist thought. The Red Guards’ increasing factionalism and their total disruption of industrial production and of Chinese urban life caused the government in 1967–68 to urge the Red Guards to retire into the countryside. The Chinese military was called in to restore order throughout the country, and from this point the Red Guard movement gradually subsided.

    Resemblance to mob tactics in 2020 are NOT coincidental.

    So, when you see the same factions backing mass slaughter of living posterity in the womb at 25,000 victims per week also backing riotous, murderous mobs, crying abolish the police and using every occasion to push for disarming the law abiding, we can and should draw our own conclusions. Especially when incidents that do not fit their narrative are suppressed from focal public discussion.

    See why I am highlighting that the situation is nonlinear and we may be headed for 1775 again?

    More . . .

    KF

    PS, observe how those pushing the dominant narrative respond or don’t respond.

  536. 536
    kairosfocus says:

    Next,

    a money shot clip from a CATO Institute 2012 study that shows the long since known pattern:

    https://danieljmitchell.wordpress.com/2012/02/07/new-cato-institute-study-shows-how-private-gun-ownership-reduces-crime-saves-lives/

    If policymakers are truly interested in harm reduction, they should pause to consider how many crimes—murders, rapes, assaults, robberies—are thwarted each year by ordinary persons with guns. …This paper uses a collection of news reports of self-defense with guns over an eight-year period to survey the circumstances and outcomes of defensive gun uses in America. …the study by Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz…found that there were somewhere between 830,000 and 2.45 million defensive gun uses per year in the United States. …The National Survey of Private Ownership of Firearms (NSPOF) was performed in 1994. It…found approximately 1.5 million defensive gun uses. …The high-end figures on defensive gun uses may well suffer from exaggeration or outright lies. …Since the survey data has severe limitations with respect to defensive gun uses, collecting accounts of self-defense as they are reported in news outlets may be a better method of assessing the frequency and nature of self-defense with firearms. The data set supporting this paper is derived from a collection of news stories published between October 2003 and November 2011. …after Colorado’s 2003 concealed carry law was enacted, Colorado State University decided to allow concealed carry,while the University of Colorado prohibited firearms. The former observed a rapid decline in reported crimes, while the latter, under the gun ban they claimed was for safety,observed a rapid increase in crime. Crime at the University of Colorado has risen 35 percent since 2004, while crime at Colorado State University has dropped 60 percent in the same time frame. …Many people support gun control regulations because they are convinced that the average citizen is either incapable of using a gun in self-defense or will use the gun in a fit of anger over some petty matter. Those assumptions are false. The evidence on this point has grown so strong that even President Obama has had to chide gun safety advocates to accept the proposition that“almost all gun owners in America are highly responsible.”And, as the scores of incidents described in this study show, gun owners stop a lot of criminal mayhem—attempted murders, rapes, assaults, robberies—every year. …Policymakers interested in harm reduction should thus refrain from treating ordinary gun owners as hoodlums or loose cannons and adopt policies that respect the ownership and carrying of arms by responsible individuals.

    Food for thought, in a country where, as I noted earlier, some time ago I saw the Western Front of WW1, 400 miles, superimposed on the map of Texas, it did not even span all of Texas.

    We should take clues from that.

    KF

  537. 537
    kairosfocus says:

    Now,

    let us hear a familiar British observer of the American scene, one I sometimes sharply differ with on substance and tone. Indeed, I apologise for tone in this but we need to hear:

    https://nypost.com/2022/05/29/uvalde-shooter-salvador-ramos-is-not-the-only-one-to-blame-for-massacre/

    Uvalde shooter wasn’t the only sniveling little coward — so were the cops
    By Piers Morgan
    May 29, 2022 12:16pm

    ‘Kids are getting murdered. Get in the room. End of story.’

    This was one of several impassioned tweets posted in the last 24 hours by Rob O’Neill, the Navy SEAL Team Six hero who shot and killed Osama Bin Laden.

    Another read: ‘Hey cops, get in the room! The kids are calling you. Get in the [] room!’

    And a third said simply: ‘I would never have left you alone, kids. I’m heartbroken.’

    He wouldn’t.

    And if someone like O’Neill had been in Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas, last Tuesday, then I would have given the sniveling little coward of a shooter two hopes of surviving longer than a few seconds: no hope… and no hope.

    Yet incredibly, there were up to 19 armed police officers inside the school for 70 minutes before 18-year-old Salvador Ramos finished his hellish homicidal rampage.

    That’s one for each of the 9 and 10-year-old children who were murdered.

    These cops were all trained to use guns to protect the public and were all carrying guns to protect the public.

    But when the moment came to protect the youngest, most vulnerable and defenceless members of the public, they went AWOL . . .

    More food for thought.

    Of course, Seal team Six is not on call, but within minutes up to 19 officers were literally just outside the room.

    Something went very wrong and needs to be addressed.

    KF

  538. 538
    ET says:

    Total failure: I Created the F.B.I.’s Active Shooter Program. The Officers in Uvalde Did Not Follow Their Training..

    Two doors to every classroom allows students to run out one while the shooter is coming through the other.

  539. 539
    JHolo says:

    KF: a money shot clip

    I have seen you use this phrase a couple times. it originated in the film industry but I assume that you were unaware that this phrase was later adopted by the porn film industry. Out of decorum, I will not mention what it refers to, but I’m sure you can guess.

    I’m not trying to be critical, but knowing your moral values, I didn’t want you using this phrase without being aware of popular meaning.

  540. 540
    relatd says:

    JH,

    So what? I repeat. So what? That does not inform anyone about precisely what is going on in the United States, does it?

    “Gun deaths per 100,000 people:
    -> US: 3.96
    -> Canada: 0.47
    -> Australia: 0.19
    -> New Zealand: 0.15
    -> UK: 0.041
    -> Japan: 0.021”

  541. 541
    Seversky says:

    No, but it provides a context. And if people are not aware of what’s going on in the US by now, they’re probably on a different planet.

  542. 542
    ET says:

    “A total disregard for human life”- “Death by Cop”- How do you prevent people with that mindset from doing harm? Obviously, you have to identify them, first. In Buffalo the shooter said he wanted a murder-suicide. And it was laughed away or ignored.

    Two Professors Found What Creates a Mass Shooter. Will Politicians Pay Attention?

  543. 543
    kairosfocus says:

    JH, what????? Money shot is the winning shot in many games. It can also refer to the prize winning photo. I guess dirty minds will taint anything. What other words out there are calling 911 about being kidnapped? KF

  544. 544
    Seversky says:

    Kairosfocus/537

    Now,

    let us hear a familiar British observer of the American scene, one I sometimes sharply differ with on substance and tone. Indeed, I apologise for tone in this but we need to hear:

    I can’t stand Piers Morgan but, in this case, he makes a good point.

    There have been cases where police officers have charged into a situation to stop an offense being committed and paid with their lives. Those in Uvalde not only failed the children in that school but dishonored the sacrifice of their brothers and sisters.

  545. 545
    Seversky says:

    Also, this has nothing to do with abortion or the collapse of Western civilization. This is about disturbed individuals and, ideally, detecting them before they get to the point of doing something. With hindsight, there were behaviors that should have raised red flags but apparently didn’t. There are almost certainly others out there. Improving security in schools is certainly one response but parents, teachers and other students should be reporting any individuals that display alarming behaviors so that there can be interventions that could head off something much worse.

  546. 546
    ET says:

    The connection to abortion is this- total disregard for human life. Then throw in the despair that climate alarmists promote and that leads to disturbed individuals.

  547. 547
    kairosfocus says:

    ET,

    I did notice a pattern plot that showed that mass shootings tend to cluster. Now from your clip:

    Jillian Peterson: On some level, we were waiting because mass shootings are socially contagious and when one really big one happens and gets a lot of media attention, we tend to see others follow . . . .

    Peterson: We don’t know for sure at this point, but our research would say that it’s likely. You had an 18-year-old commit a horrific mass shooting. His name is everywhere and we all spend days talking about “replacement theory.” That shooter was able to get our attention. So, if you have another 18-year-old who is on the edge and watching everything, that could be enough to embolden him to follow. We have seen this happen before.

    Densley: Mass shooters study other mass shooters. They often find a way of relating to them, like, “There are other people out there who feel like me.”

    So, what is their profile?

    Peterson: There’s this really consistent pathway. Early childhood trauma seems to be the foundation, whether violence in the home, sexual assault, parental suicides, extreme bullying. Then you see the build toward hopelessness, despair, isolation, self-loathing, oftentimes rejection from peers. That turns into a really identifiable crisis point where they’re acting differently. Sometimes they have previous suicide attempts.

    What’s different from traditional suicide is that the self-hate turns against a group. They start asking themselves, “Whose fault is this?” Is it a racial group or women or a religious group, or is it my classmates? The hate turns outward. There’s also this quest for fame and notoriety.

    POLITICO: You’ve written about how mass shootings are always acts of violent suicide. Do people realize this is what’s happening in mass shootings?

    Peterson: I don’t think most people realize that these are suicides, in addition to homicides. Mass shooters design these to be their final acts. When you realize this, it completely flips the idea that someone with a gun on the scene is going to deter this. If anything, that’s an incentive for these individuals. They are going in to be killed.

    It’s hard to focus on the suicide because these are horrific homicides. But it’s a critical piece because we know so much from the suicide prevention world that can translate here.

    I see a point but must disagree. Suicide bombers, Kamikaze pilots etc are not just suicidal, if they were they would kill themselves of in a corner. They also have a target and sense of mission, to go out in a sick glory.

    Logically, if they know their target is too hard, that would be an obvious deterrent. And reducing the injured or death toll to would be shooter, one . . . as just happened in West Virginia . . . is directly a reduction in harm done. As USN and British Pacific Fleet (yes there was one) did by massing 40 mm and 20mm guns.

    The second thing is we have to find a way to silence the aura of sick glory by blazing up in the media.

    A good first step is to avoid their names as much as possible in general media.

    Then, suicide is usually secondary to depression and perceiving a target group may reflect irrational paranoia. But the problem with the irrational is just that, they are unreasonable.

    Further to such, we need to deal with the bullying epidemic.

    Further along is the issue of institutionalisation of the insane needs to be revisited.

    I guess, more.

    This part goes off the rails as it is clear from the cases we are seeing that target hardening has not been properly carried out, compare the Israelis . . . where it has worked (in the face of existential threat):

    Peterson: Post-Columbine there’s been this real focus on hardening schools — metal detectors, armed officers, teaching our kids to run and hide. The shift I’m starting to see, at least here in Minnesota, is that people are realizing hardening doesn’t work. Over 90 percent of the time, school shooters target their own school. These are insiders, not outsiders . . . .

    Densley: In Uvalde, there was an army of good guys with guns in the parking lot. The hard approach doesn’t seem to be getting the job done.

    You had a blunder, a stand down order, riding on a blunder, a propped open door and classrooms that were not locked down given shooting in the close neighbourhood.

    So, we are back to sifting for what makes sense.

    KF

  548. 548
    kairosfocus says:

    Sev, epidemic of nihilism and connected despair. KF

    PS, Wiki testifies against itself:

    Nihilism (/?na?(h)?l?z?m, ?ni?-/; from Latin nihil ‘nothing’) is a philosophy, or family of views within philosophy, that rejects generally accepted or fundamental aspects of human existence,[1][2] such as objective truth, knowledge, morality, values or meaning.[3][4] Different nihilist positions hold variously that human values are baseless, that life is meaningless, that knowledge is impossible, or that some set of entities do not exist or are meaningless or pointless.[5][6] . . . .

    he term is sometimes used in association with anomie to explain the general mood of despair at a perceived pointlessness of existence or arbitrariness of human principles and social institutions. Nihilism has also been described as conspicuous in or constitutive of certain historical periods. For example,[11] Jean Baudrillard[12][13] and others have characterized postmodernity as a nihilistic epoch[14] or mode of thought.[15] Likewise, some theologians and religious figures have stated that postmodernity[16] and many aspects of modernity[17] represent nihilism by a negation of religious principles. Nihilism has, however, been widely ascribed to both religious and irreligious viewpoints.[8]

    In popular use, the term commonly refers to forms of existential nihilism, according to which life is without intrinsic value, meaning, or purpose.[18] Other prominent positions within nihilism include the rejection of all normative and ethical views (§ Moral nihilism), the rejection of all social and political institutions (§ Political nihilism), the stance that no knowledge can or does exist (§ Epistemological nihilism), and a number of metaphysical positions, which assert that non-abstract objects do not exist (§ Metaphysical nihilism), that composite objects do not exist (§ Mereological nihilism), or even that life itself does not exist.

    Connexions to irrationality and insanity are obvious.

  549. 549
    JHolo says:

    KF: JH, what????? Money shot is the winning shot in many games. It can also refer to the prize winning photo. I guess dirty minds will taint anything. What other words out there are calling 911 about being kidnapped?

    Don’t shoot the messenger pal. If you want to keep using the phrase “money shot”, don’t let me stop you. In fact, given your reaction to my comment, please use it repeatedly. In fact, I will even tell everyone I know that you have the best “money shots” of anyone this side of the Atlantic.

  550. 550
    JHolo says:

    Might I suggest a first step? What about banning all advertising for guns. We do it for cigarettes, another product known to cause death.

  551. 551
    kairosfocus says:

    I am not accusing you. I do have in mind some sickos and scapegallws who run a billion dollars so called industry.

  552. 552
    ET says:

    There are advertisements for guns?

  553. 553
    JHolo says:

    ET: There are advertisements for guns?>/I>

    Hey, dick. Are you really that willfully ignorant?

  554. 554
    Paxx says:

    JHolo: Might I suggest a first step? What about banning all advertising for guns. We do it for cigarettes, another product known to cause death.

    Guns are not merely offensive weapons. There are 500,000+ defensive gun uses every year in the USA. I have personally been involved in three.

    When seconds count, the police are only minutes away.

  555. 555
    JHolo says:

    Paxx, that may be so, but do you really think they have to be advertised? Do you need conventions, and gun shows?

  556. 556
    Paxx says:

    Relatd:

    “Gun deaths per 100,000 people:
    -> US: 3.96
    -> Canada: 0.47

    Rather useless stat without more variables and context. 2/3rd of gun deaths in the USA are suicides. Most gun murders occur in the inner cities and are related to drug and gang violence. Canada’s population is less then the USA’s inner city areas where most gun murders occur. Canada does not have a gang problem like the USA. USA borders Mexico. If serious gun control were attempted in the USA, it would create a massive illegal black market for guns, and criminals would always be able get them. For these, and many other, reasons, guns are here to stay in the USA.

  557. 557
    kairosfocus says:

    JH nothing wrong there for legitimate users; of which there are not many short of 100 million. KF

  558. 558
    Paxx says:

    JHolo: do you really think they have to be advertised?

    I don’t know where you live, but I’ve never seen a gun advertised on TV in the USA. I’ve seen a lot of guns used in movie and games, funded, oddly enough, by Hollywood leftists. Maybe we should get rid of those venues that glorify illegitimate gun use.

    Do you need conventions, and gun shows?

    Why not? I find that a strange question.

    Should we ban car shows too just because someone commits mass murder with an SUV?

    https://apnews.com/article/suv-plows-into-parade-waukesha-wisconsin-injured-f8c6a9dcd420bc1f1a732afc7b10943aw

    While we’re at it, should we ban teenage driving? About 4700 gruesome deaths by car crash occur every year among teenagers due to teen driving. 13 to 19 per day. Where is the outrage? Where are the protests? Why aren’t the faces of the victims plastered all over the news media day after day? It seems there is some selective outrage going on with regards to gruesome (and unnecessary) teen deaths.

    https://www.cdc.gov/transportationsafety/teen_drivers/index.html

  559. 559
    JHolo says:

    Paxx: USA borders Mexico. If serious gun control were attempted in the USA, it would create a massive illegal black market for guns, and criminals would always be able get them.

    Which begs the question why Mexico sued US gun manufacturers because of the illegal arms crossing into Mexico. Any arms crossing back into the US are just coming home. Reap what you have sown.

  560. 560
    jerry says:

    What do you mean by advertising?

    Does it just mean no media advertising? Would signs on gun shops be ok. I live in New Hampshire and frequently pass shops that sell guns when driving around the state that have signs indicating what they have. How about advertising for gun shows? Direct mail?

    Does it mean business advertising? Gun manufacturers often advertise to potential military and law enforcement purchasers? Sig Sauer is a large local employer. What restrictions would be on them?

    I personally would be for restrictions on consumer ads in nearly all media. But someone interested has to have a way to find the right weapon for themselves.

    How about advertising for fire arm safety? For shooting ranges?

    I cannot remember ever seeing any but I am sure it exists.

  561. 561
    JHolo says:

    Paxx: Meaningless without more variables. 2/3rd of gun deaths in the USA are suicides.

    And more than 2/3rd of gun deaths in Canada are suicides.

    Most gun murders occur in the inner cities and are related to drug and gang violence.

    And 25% of gun deaths in Canada, and 40% of gun injuries in Canada occur in the urban centres and related to drug and gang violence.

    So, both countries have similar demographics for gun deaths. But Canada, because of more strict gun access laws, have much lower per-capita gun violence rates.

    Canada’s population is less then the USA’s inner city areas where most gun murders occur.

    That is why we look at per-capita numbers. And, btw, Canada has the fourth largest city in North America.

    Canada does not have a gang problem like the USA. USA

    Then why do the major Canadian cities have “guns and gangs” units?

    I don’t know where you live,

    Brisbane. But I grew up in Toronto.

  562. 562
    Paxx says:

    JHolo: Which begs the question why Mexico sued US gun manufacturers because of the illegal arms crossing into Mexico. Any arms crossing back into the US are just coming home. Reap what you have sown.

    This situtation, while a valid point, is not germane to what I wrote:

    USA borders Mexico. If serious gun control were attempted in the USA, it would create a massive illegal black market for guns, and criminals would always be able get them.

    China would have no trouble stepping into that wonderful opportunity and providing Mexico with whatever the cartels wanted, which would include providing black market guns in USA.

    While thinking about that, think about this: the Mormons who were murdered in Mexico in 2019 would loved to have had guns to fight back with. In Mexico, it is technically legal get own a firearm, but extremely difficult, given that there is literally only one retail store in the entire country, in Mexico City. This makes lawabiding citizens easy prey for the cartels. who for all intents and purposes, and despite window dressing to the contrary, call the shots in Mexico.

    Julián LeBarón, whose relatives were among nine Mormon women and children massacred in 2019, described the lawsuit as “the stupidest thing in the world” and called instead for Mexico to relax its strict gun laws. He described the lawsuit [against U.S. gun companies] as “the stupidest thing in the world” and called instead for Mexico to relax its strict gun laws. “We would have loved to have had guns to shoot back when they were killing the women and children.”

    It’s not the legal ownership of guns that are the problem in Mexico, it’s the illegal usage of guns by those who don’t care about the law, and the virtual prohibition of guns for the defenseless law-abiders.

  563. 563
    jerry says:

    Canada and the United States are no where close demographically. It does not take much to find this out.

    The differences are where most of the violence takes place. The similarities would have similar statistics on crime and violence.

  564. 564
    Paxx says:

    JHolo,

    What are the gun murder stats in Canada by province? And broken down by city, rural, racial, socio-economic, age, family make-up variables ? I can’t find them. Does Canada even publish this data?

  565. 565
    Paxx says:

    Jerry: The differences are where most of the violence takes place. The similarities would have similar statistics on crime and violence.

    This would be true. And we have to be careful where we step here. Moreover, the county in which I reside, population 350,000, has very high household gun ownership. Gun violence, let alone gun murders, or murders of any kind, are exceptionally rare. We get maybe one armed robbery a year, committed by someone out of the area. (They always get caught by the police. Robbers just aren’t very smart.) And people who don’t live here are well aware this is a heavily armed county. And we aim to keep it that way. (Pun intended.)

  566. 566
    JHolo says:

    U.S. marks Memorial Day weekend with at least 11 mass shootings
    https://apple.news/A-sAXuUojS-iS9OTJO_EzbQ

  567. 567
    ET says:

    I have not seen a gun ad on TV nor heard one on the radio, in decades. I just figured they went the way of the cigarette ads. But then again, I live in a State in which you have to have a face-to-face interview with the local police before getting a gun permit.

    Great point, dickless. Stop all gun ads on TV or the radio. People can find out all they want online.

  568. 568
    JHolo says:

    Paxx: What are the gun murder stats in Canada by province? And broken down by city, rural, racial, socio-economic, age, family make-up variables ?

    Don’t know. A person with a bullet in the head is a person with a bullet in the head, regardless of city and ethnic make up.

    But a quick search did find homicide rates in Toronto ranging between 93 and 145 between 2016 and 2020. The same numbers for Chicago, a comparable sized city, ranged from 490 to 774.

  569. 569
    JHolo says:

    ET: Great point, dickless. Stop all gun ads on TV or the radio. People can find out all they want online.

    I wasn’t aware that TV and radio were the only form of advertising.

  570. 570
    Paxx says:

    JHolo: U.S. marks Memorial Day weekend with at least 11 mass shootings

    “as defined by the Gun Violence Archive, a nonprofit research organization”, says the WaPo article.

    One might think all these “mass shootings” were school shootings or something, by the way the headline reads. Most of these “mass shootings” were at house “parties” in sketchy parts of the cities attended by people of a criminal element and other assorted private squabbles.

    In other news, 450 people are dead in car crashes in the USA over the Memorial Day Weekend, including 55 teen drivers. Some of the crashes caused “mass deaths”. I guess it’s time to ban automobiles.

    The problem with your point of view, I suspect, JHolo, is that you don’t seem to think that guns in the hands of private citizens have ligitimate purposes. A lot of people disagree. You’re not going to change enough of their minds to make even a small dent in what, I suspect, is your agenda.

  571. 571
    Paxx says:

    JHolo: Don’t know. A person with a bullet in the head is a person with a bullet in the head, regardless of city and ethnic make up.

    I beg to differ. I does matter when it comes to taking away rights of legitimate gun owners because of the actions of people within certain demographics. If people want to shoot each other up at house parties in the “hood”, that is not my problem. I’m not giving up my guns because of the actions of criminals in Commucrat controlled cities. In fact, you will find many law-abiding urban dwellers who agree in the USA.

    https://twitter.com/blkgunsmattr?lang=en

  572. 572
    JHolo says:

    Paxx: I beg to differ. I does matter when it comes to taking away rights of legitimate gun owners because of the actions of people within certain demographics.

    I don’t get your point. Are you suggesting that a bullet in the head of a black kid from a ghetto is less important that a bullet in the head of a white kid in Kansas?

    The penalty for running a stop sign in outer BF Arkansas is the same as in NYC. Even though the risk is much lower for outer BF Arkansas.

  573. 573
    Paxx says:

    JHolo: The same numbers for Chicago, a comparable sized city, ranged from 490 to 774.

    Yes, certain areas of Chicago have a big problem. They need to do something about it. Their (anti) gun laws aren’t working.

  574. 574
    JHolo says:

    Paxx: Yes, certain areas of Chicago have a big problem. They need to do something about it. Their (anti) gun laws aren’t working.

    Although far from perfect, Toronto appears to be faring better than Chicago. Perhaps Chicago should look at what is happening in Toronto.

  575. 575
    Paxx says:

    JHolo: Perhaps Chicago should look at what is happening in Toronto.

    The leftoids who run Chicago have no desire to deal with any root issues. The consequences are on them.

  576. 576
    Paxx says:

    JHolo: Are you suggesting that a bullet in the head of a black kid from a ghetto is less important that a bullet in the head of a white kid in Kansas?

    No. Why would you conclude that? I’m saying what criminals do with guns in the cities have no bearing on our gun rights out here in “Kansas.” The city officials need to figure out what the root problems are, and fix them. They are resistant to do so, and so they bear the consequences. Not my problem to fix.

  577. 577
    JHolo says:

    I just heard that Canada is planning to invoke much stricter gun laws. Including a magazine limit of five shells, the ban and buy-back of many assault style weapons, and a ban on handguns except under very restrictive conditions.

  578. 578
    vividbleau says:

    Even though one can never change the mind of a fabulist ,and even though one mass shooting is one to much, maybe others can appreciate a different perspective.

    https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2022/05/30/reason-magazine-reported-mass-shooting-numbers-highly-inflated/

    Vivid

  579. 579
    kairosfocus says:

    Actually, some do want to effectively ban private ownership of cars etc, see some issues under sustainability. This brings up the already studiously ducked policy issue, how does one decide policy when all relevant options both save and cost lives. The case study of mass vehicle ownership gives a good approach to understand policy dilemmas, including the hidden one of a policy/power elite imposing its will. Where, for the US that elite has 63 million victims of its abortion policy on its hands, alienating a large segment of population.

  580. 580
    kairosfocus says:

    JH, all of which simply point to onward items on an agenda. I find, too, that many refuse to accept that they can get away with doing a lot of things because the US is carrying the main global security load; that also extends to playing with green economy fads, trace how many resources etc depend on US industries widely regarded as dirty. Similarly, China and Taiwan rspecially are carrying not a few dirty industries behind our high tech age including semiconductors, rare earth metals etc. Moves that alienate, polarise and undermine heartland support have direct implications for the US carrying that burden. Remember, there are always geostrategic vultures. KF

  581. 581
    Fred Hickson says:

    So, KF, what is the prevailing law regarding guns on Montserrat. Are there lessons to be learned?

  582. 582
  583. 583
    Bob O'H says:

    Jerry @ 529 –

    But again, why is this irrelevant?

    It wouldn’t accomplish anything.

    That still doesn’t make it irrelevant. Did you mean “ineffective”?

  584. 584
    kairosfocus says:

    FH, utterly irrelevant and BTW there is a drugs connected armed gang subculture. Montserrat;s security rests on the UK thence the now somewhat tattered special relationship with the rebel republic. Which BTW is eligible to join the Commonwealth. KF

  585. 585
    kairosfocus says:

    Vivid,

    I was meaning to go there, you scooped me. Good work.

    That means, we are seeing gross irresponsibility and disregard for truth, if not outright knowing big lie agit prop. That goes to policy maker and media credibility especially given the existing issue of elites with the blood of 63 millions on their hands, so we cannot trust them to rise above nihilism, cynicism, manipulation and hidden power aggrandisement agendas.

    In particular the techno plutocrats, their bought and paid for analysts, advisors and media agit prop and censorship operators have sought to foment a moral panic to advance an agenda that like the fabled vampire cannot stand the light of day. To do so, they have used the Marxist form of the Hegelian Dialectic, create a crisis atmosphere to define thesis and antithesis, demonise the other to drive and control a synthesis on their lawless ideological oligarchy terms.

    So, once that is in operation we must understand what is going on as just that, operations in the ongoing 4th gen agit prop, lawfare, street theatre and mob rule driven in the shadows so far civil war. That is, we are looking at subversion and subjugation under a nihilistic oligarchy. One that is benumbed through blood guilt at five times the scale of Hitler’s holocaust.

    We would be well advised therefore to presume that any dominant narrative stories, incidents, issues, proposals and the like are driven by nihilism of the worst sort. The same nihilism that through despair and amoral anomie, is driving the mass shooting and gang movements. A nihilism that Plato long ago warned against as rotten fruit of evolutionary materialism (and its fellow travellers).

    Of course. studiously ignored by those pushing collapse of our civilisation in hope of remaking it in their fever dream utopian image. Never mind, the history of C20 showed the living nightmares that consistently emerged instead.

    To be forewarned is to be forearmed.

    KF

    PS: predictably it will be ignored but for record Plato’s warning:

    Ath[enian Stranger, in The Laws, Bk X 2,360 ya]. . . .[The avant garde philosophers and poets, c. 360 BC] say that fire and water, and earth and air [i.e the classical “material” elements of the cosmos — the natural order], all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art . . . [such that] all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only [ –> that is, evolutionary materialism is ancient and would trace all things to blind chance and mechanical necessity; observe, too, the trichotomy: “nature” (here, mechanical, blind necessity), “chance” (similar to a tossed fair die), ART (the action of a mind, i.e. intelligently directed configuration)] . . . .

    [Thus, they hold] that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.-

    [ –> Relativism, too, is not new; complete with its radical amorality rooted in a worldview that has no foundational IS that can ground OUGHT, leading to an effectively arbitrary foundation only for morality, ethics, so too justice, law and government: accident of personal preference, the ebbs and flows of power politics, accidents of history and and the shifting sands of manipulated community opinion driven by “winds and waves of doctrine and the cunning craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming . . . ” cf a video on Plato’s parable of the cave; from the perspective of pondering who set up the manipulative shadow-shows, why.]

    These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might,

    [ –> Evolutionary materialism — having no IS that can properly ground OUGHT — leads to the promotion of amorality on which the only basis for “OUGHT” is seen to be might (and manipulation: might in “spin”), opening the door to cynicism, hyperskepticism and nihilism . . . ]

    and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions [ –> Evolutionary materialism-motivated amorality “naturally” leads to continual contentions and power struggles influenced by that amorality at the hands of ruthless power hungry nihilistic agendas], these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is,to live in real dominion over others [ –> such amoral and/or nihilistic factions, if they gain power, “naturally” tend towards ruthless abuse and arbitrariness . . . they have not learned the habits nor accepted the principles of mutual respect, justice, fairness and keeping the civil peace of justice, so they will want to deceive, manipulate and crush — as the consistent history of radical revolutions over the past 250 years so plainly shows again and again], and not in legal subjection to them [–> nihilistic will to power not the spirit of justice and lawfulness].

    Lessons of bloodily bought history.

  586. 586
    kairosfocus says:

    PPS, let’s note that any incident of murder or attempted murder or terrorism or arson or bombing or riot etc is unacceptable, anti civilisational, misanthropic. That noted, observe that in the much ignored 30 above, I suggested that misuse of weapons or potential weapons should be tried under the unorganised militia principle as court martial offenses. That is how seriously I take them.

    Having duly noted that, let us now put some specific challenges to the deceitful narrative about mass shootings on the table. Unresponsiveness to such correction, or dismissal, should be viewed i/l/o what is evidently going on as enabling of a misanthropic, anticivilisational, nihilistic agenda.

    First, Sen Ted Cruz:

    https://www.breitbart.com/clips/2022/05/25/cruz-dems-blocked-my-legislation-to-harden-schools-keep-guns-away-from-criminals-from-getting-60-votes/

    On Wednesday’s broadcast of the Fox News Channel’s “Jesse Watters Primetime,” Sen. Ted Cruz (R-TX) stated that Democrats blocked legislation he proposed in 2013 to bolster school security and keep firearms out of the hands of criminals and the mentally ill by keeping it from reaching the 60-vote threshold. [–> filibustered]

    Cruz said, “In 2013, I introduced legislation that would spend $300 million on federal grants to harden schools to make them safer, to make them more protected. The Democrats filibustered that legislation. I’ve introduced legislation to say schools like this elementary school behind me can get federal grants to harden their security, to put in bulletproof doors, bulletproof glass, to put in armed police officers to protect kids.” [–> Cruz is a Texas Senator so the victims are his constituents.]

    He later added, “In 2013, I introduced legislation called Grassley-Cruz, which targeted felons and fugitives and those with serious mental illness. It directed the Department of Justice to do an audit of federal convictions to make sure felons are in the database. It directed the Department of Justice to prosecute and put in jail felons and fugitives who try to illegally buy firearms. That vote in the Harry Reid, Democrat Senate…a majority of the Senate voted in favor of Grassley-Cruz, but the Democrats filibustered it. They demanded 60 votes. They defeated it because they wanted to go after law-abiding citizens instead of stopping the bad guys. We need to stop the bad guys.”

    Notice, this has not been part of the take it home bullet points for the dominant narrative.

    The technico’s trotted out by Politico who suggested that oh target hardening failed were responsible to know and report this, reckoning with its import in their analysis.

    In short, those now exploiting school shooting incidents to promote their agendas that cannot see the light of day frustrated attempts to harden schools as particularly vulnerable targets.

    That is backdrop for noting, now:

    https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2022/05/30/reason-magazine-reported-mass-shooting-numbers-highly-inflated/

    A Reason Magazine column focused on school mass shooting incidents shows that there have been 13 mass school shootings since 1966, far below the 27 incidents which the gun control lobby claims have happened this year alone.

    The Reason column opens by pointing to a National Public Radio (NPR) report that claimed, “27 school shootings have taken place so far this year.” NPR made that claim after the Uvalde, Texas, shooting.

    Reason explains that claims like those made by NPR are ubiquitous because outlets tracking such incidents have each adopted different criteria for what constitutes a school mass shooting . . . .

    Reason then points to a tally on school mass shootings that is maintained by the Scientific American. The Scientific American tally holds to the traditional FBI definition of a mass shooting–at least four people shot and killed.

    The Scientific American tally shows 13 school mass shootings since 1966.

    Breitbart News reported a similar inflation of reported mass shootings in 2015, noting that Mother Jones editor Mark Follman addressed the left’s exaggerated claims of “355 mass shootings” for the year and pointed out the actual number was about four.

    Follman pointed out that when the real definition of a mass shooting was applied–at least four people shot and killed–the record showed there had only been four mass shootings in the U.S. between January 1, 2015, and December 3, 2015.

    The four mass shootings listed by Follman are far fewer than the 355 claimed by the left [for that year].

    Now, Reason:

    https://reason.com/2022/05/26/uvalde-texas-mass-shooting-statistics-gun-crimes-misleading/

    There Have Been 13 Mass School Shootings Since 1966, Not 27 This Year
    Don’t conflate mass shootings with school shootings
    .

    Robby Soave | 5.26.2022 11:55 AM

    For many people, the Uvalde, Texas, mass shooting—which claimed the lives of at least 19 children and two adults—seemed all the more horrible after they learned it was the 27th school shooting so far this year. That fact makes it harder to view Uvalde as any kind of isolated incident.

    An NPR article highlighting this statistic has been shared frequently on social media. The headline, “27 school shootings have taken place so far this year,” probably gave many readers the impression that gun-related killings in schools have been especially high this year, even before Uvalde. Naturally, the prospect of 26 other previously unnoticed mass shooting events in schools should provoke alarm. It should also raise eyebrows.

    The problem here is that three very differently defined terms are being used somewhat incautiously and interchangeably: school shooting, mass shooting, and mass school shooting. Uvalde was a mass school shooting; the 26 previous tragedies at schools this year were not.

    The difference is significant. Education Week, which tracks all school shootings, defines them as incidents in which a person other than the suspect suffers a bullet wound on school property. Many of the 26 previous shootings involved disputes between students in parking lots, or after athletic events, and all of them resulted in one or zero deaths. These deaths are still incredibly tragic, of course. But they are fundamentally unlike what happened in Uvalde.

    Uvalde is a mass school shooting. This is defined in different ways too: an incident in which at least four people (some counters make it three) are shot and/or killed [ ==> on a school compound or at a school event, presumably]. The Gun Violence Archive counts incidents in which at least four people were shot. Under this definition, many incidents of street crime and domestic violence count as mass shootings, even if no deaths result. A stricter tally of mass school shootings, conducted by criminologists for Scientific American, only includes incidents where the shootings resulted in at least four deaths. Using their criteria, the number of mass school shootings in the U.S. since the year 1966 is 13. These crimes claimed the lives of 146 people in total.

    Obviously, 13 incidents in the last 56 years is a very different statistic than 27 incidents in the last few months. The two figures are so far apart because they measure separate things. One-off gun incidents are a serious problem in the U.S., and those taking place at schools are no exception. Mass casualty events, on the other hand, constitute less than 1 percent of all gun deaths. Suicides and non–mass-casualty murders—usually carried out with handguns rather than assault rifles—constitute the overwhelming majority of gun crimes.

    They conclude:

    Given the sheer horror of the violence in Uvalde this week, it’s understandable that the public is interested in ensuring that such a thing never happens again. But for the policy debate to be fruitful, people need to understand the actual contours of the problem.

    A pivotal, telling issue.

  587. 587
    JVL says:

    Canada should introduce a total ban on the buying and selling of all handguns, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has said.
    His government is proposing a new law that would freeze private ownership of all short-barrelled firearms.
    The legislation would not ban the ownership of handguns outright – but would make it illegal to buy them.

    The bill, which was presented to Canada’s parliament on Monday, makes it impossible to buy, sell, transfer or import handguns anywhere in the country.
    “Other than using firearms for sport shooting and hunting, there is no reason anyone in Canada should need guns in their everyday lives,” Mr Trudeau told reporters.
    “As we see gun violence continue to rise, it is our duty to keep taking action,” he said.

    The bill would also require rifle magazines to be reconfigured so they can hold no more than five rounds at a time.
    And it would take away firearms licences from gun owners involved in domestic violence or criminal harassment.

    Canada already has stricter rules on gun ownership than its southern neighbour and records fewer firearm incidents every year.
    For example, all guns must be kept locked and unloaded and anyone wishing to buy a firearm must undergo extensive background checks.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-61641543

  588. 588
    kairosfocus says:

    JVL, Yes a glimpse of the onward agenda. This is how it will be read, 63 million already slaughtered, abolish the police [replace with a political police], remove any means of effective defence, back red guard mobs. Go down that road and you will get an April 19, 1775. But they think they will win this time around if it happens. They have already spoken of heavy MGs, panzers, ground attack aircraft, nukes as in you better not try to secede. KF

  589. 589
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: On the suicide question — the majority of firearms homicides are self inflicted, there are interesting comments at Reason:

    Rossami
    May.26.2022 at 3:51 pm

    re: “States that allow gun ownership inexplicably have more suicide by firearms.”

    Yes though that’s hardly inexplicable. What the gun controllers might find inexplicable is that they do not have more total suicides. In other words, if someone really wants to kill him/herself, taking away their guns just means they find a different way to do it.
    Log in to Reply
    soldiermedic76
    May.26.2022 at 3:55 pm

    Yeah, but not necessarily more suicides overall. Suicides are a very complex subject and people often plan them in advance. I’ve done several classes on this in my former employment and as a veteran advocate. It’s a myth that they are spur of the moment, but there is often a crisis point people reach. They will work to get whatever method they choose. The only time denying them access to the method of their choice works is when they reach that crisis point. And noticing the signs is far more effective and intervening, reaching out, Question, Persuade and refer, than denying them access to guns. I suggest all parents and teachers seek resources to learn how to detect the signs and how to properly intervene. Don’t beat around the bush, ask them directly, ‘are you planning on committing suicide?’ it’s a myth that asking this question will persuade them or influence them to commit suicide. It’s a tough question but easier than attending your son’s funeral.
    Log in to Reply

    soldiermedic76
    May.26.2022 at 3:56 pm

    And I said son, because statistically juvenile and young adult males are the most prone to suicide.
    Log in to Reply
    tommyboy
    May.26.2022 at 6:23 pm

    Incorrect. Statistically, middle-aged white males and Native American males are most prone to suicide. On a related discussion former and current military males have higher rates than civilians, but the real difference seems to be females who have been in the military. They commit suicide at much higher rates than non-military females.
    Log in to Reply
    soldiermedic76
    May.26.2022 at 7:17 pm

    Actually, according to your graph the highest rate was in 25-34 year olds, while suicides among middle ages has been declining.
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    tommyboy
    May.26.2022 at 6:24 pm

    Sauce: https://www.sprc.org/scope/age

  590. 590
    kairosfocus says:

    F/N: Food for thought numbers:

    https://dailyanarchist.com/2012/07/31/auditing-shooting-rampage-statistics/

    I posted a graphic on Facebook claiming the average number of people killed in mass shootings when stopped by police is 18.25, and the average number of people killed in a mass shooting when stopped by civilians is 2.2. I based it on 10 shootings I found listed on some timeline somewhere. I honestly don’t even remember where. I presented the case studies in a blog post on the Silver Circle blog and I did the math myself.

    The graphic was met with great enthusiasm and much skepticism. Leave it to Facebook users to demand an audit on a meme. So, I started over, only much more meticulous this time. I compiled and analyzed 100 shootings, noting my methodology, and I am now prepared to present my findings, complete with links to the data. But here’s a spoiler… It’s not that different.

    The average number of people killed in mass shootings when stopped by police is 14.29

    The average number of people killed in a mass shooting when stopped by a civilian is 2.33

    I was so close! Here’s what I think accounts for the difference. In the first sample there was likely a selection error based on what grabs headlines. Larger shootings get more press, so if you take a small sampling you’re going to be working with a data set of the worst shootings. As for the consistency of the civilian statistic, it makes perfect sense if you think about from inside the mind of a heroic civilian with a concealed carry permit. It goes something like this:

    BANG!
    “[]! that guy shot that other guy.”
    BANG!
    “He’s just going to keep shooting people.”
    BANG!

    And the shooter goes down.

    Quite a few cases went something like that. In fact, I found only one example of a shooter stopped by civilians who killed more than three people. Jared Loughner killed 6 people in Tucson, Arizona before he was tackled by two civilians. An astute reader informed me that at least one of the civilians that helped stop Jared Loughner was carrying a concealed weapon, but he did not use his gun out of concern for innocent bystanders.

    We need to think the issues through.

  591. 591
    JVL says:

    Kairosfocus: Yes a glimpse of the onward agenda. This is how it will be read, 63 million already slaughtered, abolish the police [replace with a political police], remove any means of effective defence, back red guard mobs. Go down that road and you will get an April 19, 1775. But they think they will win this time around if it happens. They have already spoken of heavy MGs, panzers, ground attack aircraft, nukes as in you better not try to secede.

    It just might be that a lot of Canadians would agree with the proposed legislation in which case your eschatological scenario might have to wait for its grand opening. You do support democratic governments don’t you? That does mean, sometimes, not getting your way exactly. One of the good things about democracies though is that you’re free to leave them.

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    kairosfocus says:

    JVL, I am not speaking to Canada. KF

  593. 593
    JHolo says:

    I grew up in Toronto and I can tell you that there was crime, there were drugs, there were gangs. And, to the best of my knowledge, none of that has changed. And in the 30+ years I was there I had never seen a handgun except on TV and on a cop’s belt. And I had never seen a rifle, except on TV. And I suspect that I am not unique in this aspect. I knew people who owned rifles for hunting, but they were always locked away. With the ammunition locked away separately.

    There will be some opposition but I suspect that Trudeau’s changes will receive overwhelming support from the populace.

  594. 594
    kairosfocus says:

    PS, speaking of the moral hazards of democracies

    [On Luke’s microcosm on the ship of state, Jan 1, 2013:] Entrenched highly ideological orthodoxies — and this includes successful revolutionaries, whether on institutional or community scale — that control resource flows to their benefit and which exert enormous power in institutions and society [I was speaking here about today’s evolutionary materialism dominated science], tend to be very resistant to what is new and unsettling to their comfort zones and interests. Where there has been indoctrination and polarisation, we can see this multiplied by the problem of lack of logical thinking ability and sheer lack of awareness of the true state of the balance of warrant on the merits of facts and evidence.

    The perceived heretic, then is a threat to be fought off, marginalised, discredited and if necessary destroyed. By any and all means, fair or foul.

    (I find the obsession with suggestions of a threat of religious subversion of [scientific, political, education, media and cultural] institutions long since subverted by radical secularists slightly amusing but quite sad in the end. The key threat is unaccountable, out of control power in the hands of elites prone to corruption, not that this once happened with religious elites. In the past 100 years, we saw major secularist movements and neopagan movements of political messianism that did much the same to horrific cost. And the welfare state of the past generation has not been a whole lot better. [Just ask the ghosts of the dozens of millions who have been aborted for convenience.])

    Where is there a solution?

    Frankly, at this stage, I think things are going to have to crash so badly and some elites are going to have to be so discredited by the associated spreading failure, that media propaganda tactics cannot cover it up anymore.

    My model for that comes from one of the red-flag sources that will give some of the objectors [to the design theory movement in science] the vapours.

    Acts 27.

    What, how dare you cite that, that . . . that . . . textbook for theocratic tyranny by the ignorant, insane, stupid and/or wicked followers of that bronze age misogynistic homophobic genocidal racist war god!

    (Do you hear how your agit-prop talking points are enmeshing you in the classic trap of believing your own propaganda?)

    Let’s start with, Paul of Tarsus, c. AD 59, was not in the Bronze Age but was an appellate prisoner in chains on early Imperial era grain ships having a hard time making way from the Levant and Asia Minor to Rome, in the second case ending up in a bay on Crete. What followed is a classic exercise in the follies of manipulated democracy, a case study that will well repay study in our time.

    It was late in the sailing season, and the merchant-owner was worried about his ship in an open bay at Fair Havens, given what winter storms can do.

    The passengers were not too impressed by the nearby settlements as a wintering place. (Sailing stopped in Autumn and opened back up in Spring. [–> EVERYONE knew why, the ships of that day could not bear up the storms of winter, and as time wore on in the fall, sailing became increasingly dangerous])

    The key technico, the kubernete — steersman, more or less like a pilot of an airliner — knew where his bread was buttered, and by whom.

    In the middle was a Centurion of the elite messenger corps.

    We are at ship’s council, and Paul, in chains, is suggesting that the suggestion to venture our with a favourable wind to try to make it to a more commodious port down-coast was excessively risky not only to boat but life.

    The financial and technical talking heads and the appeal of comfort allowed him to be easily marginalised and dismissed.

    Then we saw a gentle south breeze, that would have allowed a reach down the coast. (The technicos probably knew this could be a precursor to a storm, but were not going to cut across the dominant view. [Let’s add, how many days would it have taken to simply WALK to Phoenix, 40 mi away by sea? 3 – 4? We can readily see how the implicit, you won’t get money back if you “abandon” the voyage and the rosy description of a smooth, low risk afternoon’s sail could easily have swayed opinions.])

    They sailed out.

    Bang, an early winter noreaster hit them and sprang the boat’s timbers (why they tried to hold together with ropes [–> called frapping]) so the ship was in a sinking condition from the beginning.

    Worse, they were heading for sandbars off the coast of today’s Libya.

    For two weeks all they could do was use a sea anchor to control drift and try to steer vaguely WNW.

    Forget, eating.

    That is when Paul stood forth as a good man in a storm, and encouraged them with a vision from God. By this time, hope was to be shipwrecked on a coast. (Turned out, [probably] north coast of Malta [possibly, east end].)

    While the ship was at risk of being driven aground and set out four anchors by the stern from midnight on, the sailors tried to abandon the passengers on a ruse, spotted by Paul and/or Luke his travelling companion.

    By this time, the Centurion knew who to take seriously and the ship’s boat was cut away. He then took the decision to save Paul and refused the soldiers’ request to kill the prisoners to prevent escape (for which their lives would have been forfeit).

    So, they made it to a beach on Malta, having lost the ship in any case AND nearly their own lives.

    Votes, or more exactly ballots, cannot change realities. Voting publics have a duty of vigilant prudence, one which manifestly is not currently being fulfilled.

  595. 595
    JVL says:

    Kairosfocus: I am not speaking to Canada.

    Well, the article I linked to was ONLY about Canada so you changed the topic a bit. AND/OR, you seem to think that there’s some kind of slippery-slope, I guess: if Canada starts restricting guns then the US might follow? Or something. Perhaps you should be more clear?

    the moral hazards of democracies

    Oh dear. Dare I ask what is a better form of government? Perhaps that’s a topic too far . . .

  596. 596
    JHolo says:

    KF: Oh dear. Dare I ask what is a better form of government? Perhaps that’s a topic too far .

    A Christian theocracy, of course.

  597. 597
    JVL says:

    JHolo: There will be some opposition but I suspect that Trudeau’s changes will receive overwhelming support from the populace.

    Why would they object to not being able to buy something they don’t want to buy?

    AND we’re back to: what is different about America? The US and Canada were explored and settled by Europeans at roughly similar times by roughly similar people. Canada is a vast wilderness full of lots of deadly critters so certainly 100 or 200 years ago most men probably owned a weapon. But that attitude hasn’t stuck there like in the US. It can’t just be a constitutional thing; after all, the US founding fathers made provision for changing the US constitution but there hasn’t been enough support to do that. Not in Congress anyway.

    A Christian theocracy, of course.

    Well, I guess if the US public voted for it, it would happen!!

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