Defend the Children

AS, we must heed these signs and recognise the sorts of characters and agendas we are dealing with. KF kairosfocus

"Do we recognize signs of media manipulation to push policy agendas that could not pass on their true face value merits?" KF, Indeed. They want to control and confiscate guns. Important details are ignored. Andrew asauber

Now, after the media frenzy we see https://citizenfreepress.com/breaking/uvalde-could-have-been-stopped-in-three-minutes/

Today we learned that Uvalde police had body armor, ballistic shields, could have stopped the shooter in three minutes, the door to the classroom was never locked, and no attempt was made to open it. School Police Chief Pete Arredondo allowed this to happen. The question is why? — Greg Price (@greg_price11) June 21, 2022 Reuters: TEXAS DPS DIRECTOR SAYS CLASSROOM DOOR IN UVALDE SCHOOL SHOOTING WAS NOT LOCKED, EVEN AS POLICE WAITED FOR KEY — Kyle Griffin (@kylegriffin1) June 21, 2022 BREAKING: Texas DPS Director CONFIRMS Uvalde officers never even checked to see if the doors to the classrooms were locked — Jack Posobiec ?? (@JackPosobiec) June 21, 2022

Are we going to see a wall to wall discussion on policing failure? Of course not, does not fit the agenda. And the officials had to know all of this day one, so why is this only coming out now, about a month later? Do we recognise signs of media manipulation to push policy agendas that could not pass on their true face value merits? KF kairosfocus

JH, Projection in defiance of manifest facts, setting up and knocking over a strawman. The pro life movement spent half a century arguing, using classic rights acknowledged in the 1st amdt US Const, in the face of a warped and deadly decision from the outset, and as a blood toll of 63 million built up, because of a commitment to peaceful reform. Eventually, the warped law has been recognised by a majority, and immediately it was doxxed, intimidated and threatened with assassination. Legislative moves to enhance protection were blocked by supporters of the mass killing [itself telling]. Now, a law that targets abuse of freedoms in contempt of court and obstructing the course of justice by "the intent of interfering with, obstructing, or impeding the administration of justice" -- yardstick words implying that the plain intent of "influencing" any "judge, juror, witness, or court officer, in the discharge of his duty" is in the sense unduly or improperly influencing -- is being cynically twisted to insinuate that responsible peaceful protest is the same. Genuine coin and counterfeit are not the same, pretence otherwise notwithstanding. Had you suggested an amendment to the law to clarify that influencing is explicitly understood as improper and reflecting contempt of court and justice, that would be one thing. Notice, contempt proceedings are recognised in the text as to go forward with this prospective count. You have insistently done something else and have pretended that due distinction is wrong -- itself an appeal to the ciceronian first duties of reason -- and have tried turnabout projection built on strawman caricature. You have measured your character in public, and the nature of the cause that seemingly can only be advanced with such tactics, a cause that for half a century has cost 25,000 of our living posterity their lives per week. That is the sorry record you have made. You would be well advised to reconsider. KF kairosfocus

KF: JH, we understand your casuistic twisting. It fails. KF

What you don’t understand is that laws either apply to everyone, or they apply to no one. Which is it? JHolo

JH, we understand your casuistic twisting. It fails. KF kairosfocus

KF, you really are a piece of work. Laws either apply to everyone or they apply to no one. You can’t pick and choose who to apply them to based on your religious views. The law you cited was very clear. Those who protest in front of a court or in front of the residence of a judge, with the intent of influencing them, is breaking the law. Black and white. So, whether you are a pro-choice protesting in front of a judge’s house or a pro-lifer protesting in front of the Supreme Court, you are breaking the law. Either enforce the law for all, or ignore it for all. I don’t really care. But to selectively enforce it is to invite disaster. Getting all self-righteous defending one side’s right to break the law over the other just undermines the branch we all sit on; edges us all over the cliff, to the rocks below. I’m sure I could think up a couple more lame metaphors, but I’m sure you get the point. JHolo

JH, you just told us that, to enable further mass killing of our living posterity, you are willing to cover up the difference between doxxing, intimidation, threat to life and free peaceful public assembly to petition patiently [49 years as a death toll mounted up to 63 millions]. you have again publicly measured your character. KF kairosfocus

KF, whether you protest at a justice’s house or at the supreme court, the intent is the same. To influence the court. Based on the law you cited, this is illegal. It doesn’t say that one tactic is worse than the other. Petitioning for redress of grievance is either allowed everywhere, except on private property, or it is banned. You can’t have it both ways. And you certainly can’t qualify it based on the cause. Individuals, whether they be justices, senators, congressmen, mayors, etc make decisions that affect others. Why should they be exempt from peaceful protest for the decisions they make? Perhaps the government should just harden these soft targets to prevent the odd crazy from causing harm. Much like abortion clinics have had to do. JHolo

JH, you full well know the difference between doxxing and intimidation and a rally of free expression giving a petition for redress of grievance. As do all of the pundits and media houses playing a dirty projection game on this. That is precisely how we got the Sandmann smear, and it is high time this stops. Notice, this sophistry is enabling of the continued mass slaughter of our living posterity. Which takes us to the destruction of credibility through a long train of abuses and usurpations. KF kairosfocus

KF: JH, conflating two utterly different things…

KF, you can’t have your cake and eat it too. You were the one that brought up the law to prove the illegality of the protests in front of the justices’ residences, not me. The law clearly states:

Whoever, with the intent of interfering with, obstructing, or impeding the administration of justice, or with the intent of influencing any judge, juror, witness, or court officer, in the discharge of his duty, pickets or parades in or near a building housing a court of the United States, or in or near a building or residence occupied or used by such judge, juror, witness, or court officer…

It is the height of hypocrisy to claim that this applies to the protesters in front of the justices residences but not to the protesters in front of the Supreme Court. The words of the law are very clear and unambiguous. Your reaction to my comment speaks volumes to your credibility. Frankly, I think both actions should be prosecuted. I am interested to hear your view. JHolo

JH, conflating two utterly different things to make a talk point and refusing to acknowledge there has already been a credible threat to life. That speaks, as does the unwillingness to face the ongoing mass slaughter of our living posterity for what it is. KF kairosfocus

KF@963, if you support charges against protesters in front of the justices’ houses then you must also support charges against March for Life protesters who have protested in front of the Supreme Court every year. They are breaking the same law. Or is that acceptable because you support their cause? JHolo

Relatd, I note that above, there is a discussion of what an assault rifle [= sturmgewehr] objectively is. Namely, as descended from the MP/StG 44, a rifle, with select fire including automatic [and/or burst] mode firing an INTERMEDIATE cartridge (so bursts can be controllable), typically with effective range 300 - 500 yd. These were suited to infantry tactics in the late WW2 to recent years but now with a new armoured age the US is shifting back to a new form of battle rifle firing a full power cartridge, and already there are issues over controllability and recoil. Such military weapons are not generally available to the public; only specially licensed people can have such. The term, assault weapons, is ill defined and propagandistic. Your scenario is not the one that is feared, secession of a bloc of states similar to events after April 19, 1775 is; today's updated minute man would not be in readily isolated and demonised groups etc. KF kairosfocus

Jerry at 946, There are enough guns in the U.S. for every man, woman and child. Assault rifles should not be in private hands. And even assuming a scenario where a group of people are ready to fight against the government for fear the government will take away their assault rifles and thousands of rounds of ammunition - what will actually happen? Say 30 people are hunkered down in a fortified position in a remote location. Listening devices are deployed, government vehicles appear and tear gas is fired. Assuming this group has gas masks, flak jackets and helmets, they can't live in them for long. Or 100 government agents storm the site, place explosives and throw in a few flash-bangs to clear it out. I strongly doubt the U.S. government will take away all weapons from private citizens. New guns are being bought regularly. But I think the odds of any heavily armed group to survive confiscation of outlawed weapons is doubtful, meaning if they fire on law-enforcement or ATF agents, it's likely they will be fired upon.. relatd

From a recent article

After the Guns Were Removed, the Killing Fields Began All political power comes from the barrel of a gun. The Communist Party must command all the guns; that way, no guns can ever be used to command the party.” The quote was from Mao Zedong, founder of Communist China. Mao’s first act after gaining complete control of China in 1949 was to take away all guns from the population. It was a policy he began in 1935 as he took over each rural province. Anyone found with a gun post-confiscation was executed. An estimated 65 million Chinese died as a result of Mao’s repeated, merciless attempts to create a new “socialist” China. Anyone who got in his way was done away with—by execution, imprisonment, or forced famine. Mao killed more people than either Stalin or Hitler during World War II. And it all began after he took away the guns.

But the most compelling of all

Everybody ought to have a gun, Castro maintained—until he took over Cuba in 1959. At a rally in Havana before he assumed power, he explained: “This is how democracy works: It gives rifles to farmers, to students, to women, to Negroes, to the poor, and to every citizen who is ready to defend a just cause.” Weapons ranging from Czech submachine guns to Belgian FN automatic rifles were handed out to 50,000 soldiers, 400,000 militiamen, 100,000 members of the factory-guarding popular defense force, and to many men, women, and children in Cuba’s 1 million-strong “neighborhood vigilance committees.” Immediately after assuming power in 1959, Castro changed his position, following Mao’s rule that guns should not be in the hands of the people. For three weeks after the Castro government was formed, Radio Havana warned, “All citizens must turn in their combat weapons. Civilians must take arms to police stations, soldiers to military headquarters.”

https://www.dailysignal.com/2022/06/16/after-the-guns-were-removed-the-killing-fields-began/ jerry

Law: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1507 18 U.S. Code § 1507 - Picketing or parading U.S. Code Notes prev | next Whoever, with the intent of interfering with, obstructing, or impeding the administration of justice, or with the intent of influencing any judge, juror, witness, or court officer, in the discharge of his duty, pickets or parades in or near a building housing a court of the United States, or in or near a building or residence occupied or used by such judge, juror, witness, or court officer, or with such intent uses any sound-truck or similar device or resorts to any other demonstration in or near any such building or residence, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one year, or both. Nothing in this section shall interfere with or prevent the exercise by any court of the United States of its power to punish for contempt. (Added Sept. 23, 1950, ch. 1024, title I, §?31(a), 64 Stat. 1018; amended Pub. L. 103–322, title XXXIII, §?330016(1)(K), Sept. 13, 1994, 108 Stat. 2147.) --> A contempt of court issue, now compounded by a credible threat to life. kairosfocus

Waiting for a truck to run down the protesters at the justices' houses... ET

Protest at justice’s house. https://apple.news/AQaceYqhJQ56T2q92l1z9DQ JHolo

JH at 955, Miscarriage is not a choice. Look it up. How many pregnancies are caused by rape and incest? The woman was not left with a choice regarding conception. It would be better if men and women took sex more seriously. That having sex outside of marriage does not mean that the man gets to walk away if the woman gets pregnant. Or that sex is some trivial thing. I see ads on TV for contraceptives that treat it that way. So there are contraceptive injections and pills and other forms of contraception for women and it's still not enough? What more can be done? For men, it's condoms but that is portrayed as inconvenient while "spontaneity" regarding sex is seen as more important. Sex education? What about before radical Leftists forced it to be taught in schools? I was born in the 1950s. The average number of kids in my neighborhood was 2 not 10. Men and women knew what to do but Total Strangers appeared and said they knew better. Parents were portrayed as "too embarrassed" to talk to their kids about sex. That was a lie because I saw people living it out in real life. Then the radicals got together to market birth control pills and abortion. 1960 - The FDA approves the birth control pill. Most women do not want or need it. It is only available by prescription. 1967 - Time magazine runs a cover story about The Pill and tells women the following: "Contraception - Freedom From Fear." Fear of what? Babies. That bundle of joy, that gift from God. 2010 - Time magazine runs another cover story about The Pill. From the cover: "So small. So powerful. So misunderstood" A little late, don't you think? By 2010, a lot of women were on The Pill. I opened the newspaper in the 1980s and saw a clear attack on the sanctity of marriage. A lot of ads in the Classifieds from attorneys that read like this: "No kids? $75 and you're out. Call 800-DIVORCE." Quick, easy, and it's No-Fault. Nobody's fault. You want out? Call a lawyer and you're out. While total strangers were busy tearing down the traditional normal family, they could foresee the consequences. Or they could see them as they happened. The child of a neighbor of mine said the following to me and my mother. She was about 7. "My mom was going to have a baby brother or a baby sister but now she's not going to have one." And she walked away, with no understanding of what she just told us. relatd

PS, Plato is rather contemporary sounding:

Ath[enian Stranger, in The Laws, Bk X 2,360 ya]. . . .[The avant garde philosophers and poets, c. 360 BC] say that fire and water, and earth and air [i.e the classical "material" elements of the cosmos -- the natural order], all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art . . . [such that] all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only [ --> that is, evolutionary materialism is ancient and would trace all things to blind chance and mechanical necessity; observe, too, the trichotomy: "nature" (here, mechanical, blind necessity), "chance" (similar to a tossed fair die), ART (the action of a mind, i.e. intelligently directed configuration)] . . . . [Thus, they hold] that the principles of justice have no existence at all[--> notice the reduction to zero] in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.-

[ --> Relativism, too, is not new; complete with its radical amorality rooted in a worldview that has no foundational IS that can ground OUGHT, leading to an effectively arbitrary foundation only for morality, ethics, so too justice, law and government: accident of personal preference, the ebbs and flows of power politics, accidents of history and and the shifting sands of manipulated community opinion driven by "winds and waves of doctrine and the cunning craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming . . . " cf a video on Plato's parable of the cave; from the perspective of pondering who set up the manipulative shadow-shows, why.]

These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might,

[ --> Evolutionary materialism -- having no IS that can properly ground OUGHT -- leads to the promotion of amorality on which the only basis for "OUGHT" is seen to be might (and manipulation: might in "spin"), opening the door to cynicism, hyperskepticism and nihilism . . . this is actually an infamous credo of nihilism . . . also, it reeks of cynically manipulative lawless oligarchy . . . ]

and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions [ --> Evolutionary materialism-motivated amorality "naturally" leads to continual contentions and power struggles influenced by that amorality at the hands of ruthless power hungry nihilistic agendas], these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is,to live in real dominion over others [ --> such amoral and/or nihilistic factions, if they gain power, "naturally" tend towards ruthless abuse and arbitrariness . . . they have not learned the habits nor accepted the principles of mutual respect, justice, fairness and keeping the civil peace of justice, so they will want to deceive, manipulate and crush -- as the consistent history of radical revolutions over the past 250 years so plainly shows again and again], and not in legal subjection to them [--> nihilistic will to power not the spirit of justice and lawfulness].

kairosfocus

JH, cooperation and compromise ends when it is enabling mass shedding of innocent blood. That this often goes unregognised is a reflection of the old dehumanisation tactic that lay behind say enslavement and the Atlantic slave trade. KF kairosfocus

KF: JH, “Rights are what we as a society grant each other” — if that were so, there would be just one right, might makes right. AKA, nihilism

Yes, it can certainly lead to that. And history is full of examples where this is the case. But you completely ignore the concept of cooperation and compromise.

PS, you will kindly stop pushing words that do not belong there in my mouth, as you try to set up a distraction

I will make you a deal. When you stop ascribing motivations and intentions to my comments that you can’t know, which you do frequently, I will do the same. JHolo

JH, "Rights are what we as a society grant each other" -- if that were so, there would be just one right, might makes right. AKA, nihilism. That is what Plato warned against in one of those "obscure" foundational texts, The Laws, Bk X. In short, you reduced yourself to absurdity. KF PS, you will kindly stop pushing words that do not belong there in my mouth, as you try to set up a distraction. What is on the table is for the US a matter of avg 25,000 of our living posterity killed per week for nearly 50 years and globally currently a million. This is the largest, worst sustained act of state enabled violence in history and utterly discredits states that fail this test. kairosfocus

Relatd: Once conception occurs, a woman is going to have a baby and sees a doctor to ensure she has a healthy baby which requires she do certain things during pregnancy.

Except that up to 30% of pregnancies end in a miscarriage.

Now, certain radicals are trying to paint the government as an entity that forces births. Who decided to have sex? The woman or the government?

Or the rapists or the incestuous relative. Wouldn’t a better strategy be to take steps to prevent unwanted pregnancies, and to provide support to women when they occur? But I don’t see much of a desire from commenters here to ensure that birth control is readily available, that sex education is provided early and non-judgementally, and that funding be provided to women who find themselves with an unwanted pregnancy. It’s almost as if their opposition was religiously based, and not evidence based. JHolo

SA

SA: You’d be assigning rights to who can live or die depending on how old they are.

No. I am now 63 years and eight months old. I suspect that you and everyone else here measures their age from their date of birth, not their date of conception. Why is that so? JHolo

JH at 951, Either abortion kills a living human being or it doesn't. The lie that the woman was getting rid of a 'blob of tissue' was a lie. If all she was going to have was a blob of tissue then there would be no problem. Life begins at conception. That's not a religious statement, it's a scientific statement. Once conception occurs, a woman is going to have a baby and sees a doctor to ensure she has a healthy baby which requires she do certain things during pregnancy. Now, certain radicals are trying to paint the government as an entity that forces births. Who decided to have sex? The woman or the government? relatd

JH

Sorry, but I don’t accept that the rights of a weeks old fetus exceed those of an adult woman.

You'd be assigning rights to who can live or die depending on how old they are. Silver Asiatic

Relatd: There is no debate. You were once a fetus, along with everyone else reading this. This isn’t about Person A has more rights than Person B. YOU were once a fetus.

Yes. I was once a fetus. And as I am now an adult I would have hated if my mother had aborted me. But if I was aborted, I wouldn’t be around now to care. And to really throw a twist into the fabric, I was conceived on a doctor’s recommendation. My mother suffered serious postpartum depression after my older brother was born. Do you believe that she had the right to bring another child into the world for purely selfish reasons?

That’s the problem. People like you prefer to paint those who disagree as filled with hate and being ignorant. Am I right?

No. You disagree with me all the time. I don’t think you are filled with hate. But you don’t respond to my comments by inferring that I am a nihilist, a liar, dishonest, a troll, or any number of other labels that people here have applied to me simply because I disagree. JHolo

OR at 947, Do you really believe that or are you here to get the needle on the Outrage Meter to the red zone? relatd

JH at 946, No assumptions please. "Your problem is that you prefer to despise anyone..." That's the problem. People like you prefer to paint those who disagree as filled with hate and being ignorant. Am I right? relatd

JH at 942, There is no debate. You were once a fetus, along with everyone else reading this. This isn't about Person A has more rights than Person B. YOU were once a fetus. relatd

#946 Right. So black people in North America didn’t have the right to liberty until white people granted it to them. OhReally

KF: . JH, the first right is life, period.

Rights are what we as a society grant each other. Your problem is that you prefer to despise anyone who has different views than yours rather than to try to understand them. Understanding others views doesn’t mean accepting them. But jumping out wit derogatory labels does not advance the discussion. JHolo

JH, the first right is life, period. If you -- a government or a people -- cannot respect life, you will respect no other rights or duties in the end. KF kairosfocus

#942 Maybe they are three fifths. OhReally

Yes, JHolo, you are sorry. Science says that life starts at conception. And when that life is inside of a human woman, it is a human life. That life is just as valuable as the mother's. It is this total disregard for human life that has us in this position now. And materialists are imposing their religious views on unsuspecting children. ET

Sorry, but I don’t accept that the rights of a weeks old fetus exceed those of an adult woman. I also oppose people trying to impose their religious beliefs on others. That has never worked out well. JHolo

F/N: US VP, Ms Harris attempts to deny that the killing of our living posterity in the womb has general religious significance. (Watch the video, here.) She tries the choice, government non involvement [!] and my body arguments. What significance is it, then, that we are made in God's image and the shedding of innocent blood is not only murder of one's neighbour but gross disrespect for the image of God? And of course, the my body argument fails to acknowledge that half the time, the child is of the opposite sex to his mother. As for Government, its first duty is justice and the shedding of innocent blood is the violation of the first right, life. That such an argument can be made by a senior official itself is a sobering sign. This is the same government whose acts have sustained the killing of 25,000 of our living posterity per week for almost half a century. Is this a government that can be trusted not to go down the long train of abuses and usurpations? KF kairosfocus

Sev, you have failed to see the implication of the mass shedding of innocent blood. Too many have dehumanised our living posterity. The parallels to the radical ideologies of C20 beg to be drawn. KF kairosfocus

Kairosfocus/937

F/N: I see they are proposing to turn US military bases and similar federal facilities into abortion mills, should Roe vs Wade be overturned on merits (as it was long since clear it should have been). The Federal Govt now becomes even more directly involved in mass killing of living posterity. And they expect people to accept disarmament at such hands? KF

I think that providing safe-haven abortion facilities is better than imprisoning or even executing women for the offense of having a miscarriage. Apparently, pro-lifers care much more about unborn. Once they are born, they are on their own. That said, I see an opportunity here. The rate of natural miscarriages is around the same as the current rate of abortions. But miscarriages have probably been happening over the whole time humans have been human. According to Christian belief, the human reproductive system - wasteful as it undoubtedly is - was designed by God. If a human enterprise had marketed something that caused such a massive loss of unborn human life they would have been the target of a barrage of class-action lawsuits seeking huge damages as compensation. I would hope that somewhere there are counsel looking at the possibility taking God or his authorized representatives here on Earth to court to answer for this divinely-caused "Holocaust" inflicted on humanity for millennia. They should also be taking a closer look at the massive tax breaks enjoyed by religions here in the US. Seversky

Looks like the French caught a car burner https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2022/06/18/french-police-arrest-far-left-extremist-linked-to-estimated-60-car-burnings/ kairosfocus

F/N: I see they are proposing to turn US military bases and similar federal facilities into abortion mills, should Roe vs Wade be overturned on merits (as it was long since clear it should have been). The Federal Govt now becomes even more directly involved in mass killing of living posterity. And they expect people to accept disarmament at such hands? KF kairosfocus

New Hampshire has the lowest murder rate in the USA, one murder per 100k, and has the most lax gun laws in the country, with 41% households having gun ownership. Mexico has practically no legal private gun ownership and their murder rate is six times higher than the USA. Switzerland has high gun ownership and a 0.5/100k murder rate. Gun-rights haters like to talk about more gun murders where more guns exists, which practically nobody disputes. What they don't like to talk about is overall murder rates where legal private gun ownership exists. And they also don't like to talk about the locations and demographics of where the murders generally occur. Paxx

Have you viewed this video as was already linked? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4iQxpwYhAg as in, what is not included may be more pivotal than what is. kairosfocus

An interesting plot in this article of gun deaths against national GDP per capita. For countries with GDP per capita above 30K, the gun deaths per 100,000 for almost all of them is 0.5 or lower. The one country that jumps out as an obvious outlier is the US, with gun deaths per 100,000 is 4. https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2022-us-gun-violence-world-comparison/ JHolo

BTW, the government backed slaughter of 25,000 per week average across nearly 50 years in the US and currently 1 million per week globally is the single worst act of state backed bloodshed in history, never mind colour of law, rights, freedom. This utterly discredits the power factions of government that have done so, demonstrating that if they can do it they will commit mass murder. That is patently extremely relevant to putting forth under colour of law that one has no right of self defence with reasonable means, there being no duty to be a victim. Further, the manifest attempt to find crises to push stripping law abiding people of effective means of self defence speaks for itself. KF PS: There is of course a highly significant difference between proposals and more subtle enabling and projection. kairosfocus

We have again reached the arson plus further threats threshold https://www.thegatewaypundit.c om/2022/06/far-left-pro-abortion-group-janes-revenge-issues-terroristic-threat-pro-life-pregnancy-centers-ag-garland-silent/ kairosfocus

A case where the term was picked up https://the-orbit.net/lousycanuck/2012/06/02/the-further-hyper-skepticism-stalling-our-conversation/ kairosfocus

No ifs, mortal insult not belonging in civil society. You have publicly measured your character, a factor going forward. As for the projected misunderstandings, utterly lame. As for the broad agenda you are enabling, the track record above speaks. KF kairosfocus

KF, if I offended you I do apologize, but I find it difficult to have a discussion with you when you obviously do not understand what I am saying. Maybe if you could answer a couple questions, it might clear up our misunderstanding. 1) what do you think my opinion is of the effectiveness of target hardening. 2) what “dangerous policy game” do you think I am proposing? JHolo

F/N: What sort of civil strife has been plaguing Mexico for many years, defying Govt attempts to bring it under control? kairosfocus

JH, I suppose you do not realise just how much of a mortal insult you just committed against a man who has put life on the line on matters of truth. It is easy for you to type up snide dismissive words and try to trash someone else's character. That here simply further exposes your own want of character. You crossed a line that should never be crossed and its not possible to pull back. Going forward you need to do some serious rethinking about approach and mindset. KF PS, here is where I first seriously discussed the phenomenon, which is associated with the trifecta fallacy: red herrings, led away to strawman caricatures soaked in ad hominems and set alight to cloud, confuse, poison and polarise the atmosphere, frustrating progress towards a sound conclusion.. PPS, you are also recycling long since cogently answered talk points, through doubling down. The central one goes back to the OP, we have in hand a demonstration of what has worked before the whole world since 2000: target hardening. You refuse to acknowledge that and its relevance as it cuts across agenda. Likewise when actual research was put on the table on how mass attackers reach where they are, you and others basically side stepped it. As for the dangerous policy game you propose, you have been advised on April 19, 1775 and on the more recent point that no one has a duty to be a victim so whatever legislation and/or rulings under colour of law imply there is no right of reasonable self defence are in gross error and discredit those who have gone there. kairosfocus

KF:Which I should know as this is a term I coined to describe a pattern of anti-reasoning seen far too often among objectors.

No, you coined the term to use against anyone who is not convinced by your arguments.

You have consistently refused to acknowledge that research on mass shooters has shown a pattern as outlined, even as you are ever so eager to pose or link other explorations, never mind some key flaws.

And why don't we see this in other countries? Are Americans somehow different? As JVL has pointed out, other countries have all of the things that you claim are leading us over the cliff. And in many cases, far further along than the US. Yet they don't have near the rates of gun violence or mass shootings that the US does. You are ignoring the one thing that differs these countries from the US. Strict gun laws.

Similarly, you refused to acknowledge that the US, due to high diversity of place, people, circumstances and linked rise of a criminal subculture involving gangsterism...

And you have completely ignored the fact that these also exist in other countries.

Israel demonstrates that target hardening works.

You really have to learn to read for content and not misrepresent what others say just so you can display your rhetorical talking points. I have never denied that target hardening doesn't work. And I have even said that it is necessary in the US. What I have tried to address is why target hardening is necessary. That is why it is important to compare against countries other than Israel. The goal should be for Americans to live in a country where target hardening isn't necessary. And, as JVL has already stated, it can't be because of same sex marriage, transgendered, abortion, atheism or any of the other things you despise because these exist in many other countries.

You ignore that by backing mass slaughter of living posterity at 25,000/week for nigh on fifty years

I ignore it because it is not relevant to the discussion of gun violence and mass shootings. Many other countries have abortion on demand without the gun violence. In fact, Canada as absolutely no law preventing abortion from conception to birth. As ET mentioned, Mexico has one of the lowest abortion rate, yet it has a high gun violence rate. JHolo

PS, watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4iQxpwYhAg kairosfocus

JH, you have been told why again and again but will not accept it. What part of entrenched gangsterism and so far low end drug warlordism is hard to recognise? Ponder several notorious cities. Earlier, names like crips, bloods and MS13 were called. Further you are simply deaf to the research on mass attacks as extended suicides, with various factors including nihilism and further fed by how nihilism has undermined the buttresses of sound community values and nurture. As for Europe, I have pointed to the settlement jihad issue which has already exploded in France a few times, was it 1200 cars being burned per night? And a lot more. But it is most obvious that you do not recognise key factors such as Israel's demonstration that target hardening works. As for the shadow of April 19, 1775, that is even more remote from your plausibility structures. KF kairosfocus

Kairosfocus: . . . is not on the whole closely similar to other countries you wish to compare to. The question is: why aren't they comparable? Why do countries which have, arguably, a greater acceptance and support of same-sex marriage, single parent families, gun control, trans individuals, etc (some of the failings you like to think are contributing to America's gun problem) . . . why do those countries NOT have a similar problem with death by guns? I may have missed something but I don't think you've actually come up with a good explanation for America's gun conundrum that isn't mirrored in other advanced countries. We'd just like you to explain why America is markedly different in this one measure when it is comparable on lots of other issues. you will see other manifestations like when was it 1,200 cars a night were being torched in France? Temporary blips are NOT at all the same thing. Why is it that America has a vastly higher rate of gun related deaths year after year after year? It's not support for same-sex marriage. It's not support and acceptance of trans individuals. It's not single-parent families. It's not atheism. It's not cultural diversity. It's not drugs. It's not that people are more suicidal (although it has been shown that limiting access to guns cuts the suicide rate). None of the influences you site are unique to America nor is the combination. So, what is it? If you want to solve the problem then you first need to figure out what the real problem is. You should do that before you just decide to put a lot more guns out into the communities. JVL

JH, yet another round of selective hyperskepticism, exerting a double standard of warrant to dismiss what you refuse to acknowledge even as similar things you are more comfortable with are not locked up like that. Which I should know as this is a term I coined to describe a pattern of anti-reasoning seen far too often among objectors. It is hardly a buzz word. You have consistently refused to acknowledge that research on mass shooters has shown a pattern as outlined, even as you are ever so eager to pose or link other explorations, never mind some key flaws. Similarly, you refused to acknowledge that the US, due to high diversity of place, people, circumstances and linked rise of a criminal subculture involving gangsterism, so far small scale druggie warlordism tied to gangsterism, a strong trend that has marginalised moral knowledge and virtue, rise of nihilism etc , is not on the whole closely similar to other countries you wish to compare to. Though, if settlement jihad moves much beyond where it is, you will see other manifestations like when was it 1,200 cars a night were being torched in France? And more. KF PS, as for point 7 you are simply doubling down on a bluff. Israel demonstrates that target hardening works. Attempted denial or dismissal is speaking with disregard to truth. The implication is, you imagine that disarming law abiding firearms owners [the overwhelming majority] will somehow make issues of de-valuation, gangsterism, druggie warlordism, first level red guardism and linked nihilistic extended suicides disappear. You ignore that by backing mass slaughter of living posterity at 25,000/week for nigh on fifty years, the political factions pushing this have no credibility. And you simply will not face April 19, 1775. kairosfocus

ET: Mexico is a western country. There is plenty of gun violence in Mexico.

That is true. JHolo

Mexico is a western country. There is plenty of gun violence in Mexico. ET

KF: JH, at this point denial on your part seems increasingly hyperskeptical

Another buzzword used when you can't address the issues raised.

at no point have you cogently addressed research on the nature of mass attacks as extended suicides with ties to trauma and nihilism.

Irrelevant. Other western countries have suicide, trauma and nihilism. But they don't have near the gun violence and mass shootings that the US has.

Nor have you and others been able to cogently answer point 7 from the OP, i.e. the Israeli example is clear

That has been addressed by myself and others. However, you have not addressed the fact that other western countries do not have near the gun violence that the US has. You have not addressed the fact that the states with the loosest gun laws and the most guns have the most gun violence, and those with the strictest gun laws have the lowest gun violence. JHolo

JH, at this point denial on your part seems increasingly hyperskeptical, especially as at no point have you cogently addressed research on the nature of mass attacks as extended suicides with ties to trauma and nihilism. Nor have you and others been able to cogently answer point 7 from the OP, i.e. the Israeli example is clear, with a further point of relevance that the explosives favoured there are highly regulated. KF kairosfocus

Jerry: Answered several times.

No it hasn’t. Just claiming that the comparisons are irrelevant doesn’t make it so.

Aside: why not Brazil? It’s a very large western nation founded by an European country. Why is it not included?

Sure. Include it in the comparison if you would like. But don’t get me wrong. Comparisons are not easy due to numerous factors. For example, comparing gun violence in authoritative regimes against democratic regimes would be pointless. But I don’t see why you can’t conduct comparisons against countries with similar systems. Perhaps another factor to ensure that comparisons is to limit comparisons to countries with similar perceived levels of government corruption and similar levels of democracy. For example: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index But to simply say that you can’t perform valuable comparisons is a cop-out. JHolo

when it is not necessary in any other western nation.

Answered several times. More important question:         Why the willful ignorance? Aside: why not Brazil? It’s a very large western nation founded by an European country. Why is it not included? jerry

Paxx: Who here is for securing the schools as federal buildings are secured, and as Biden, Pelosi and Shumer are secured?

Sadly, I don’t think you have any option at this point. But the bigger question should be, why are you now in the position where this is necessary when it is not necessary in any other western nation. JHolo

On display here by some commenters - Useful Idiots by Garret Geer 6 years ago in 2016 Notice #4 - the useful idiots’ mentor knew about it so one way to obtain it is to deny it will have any effect.

Though Alinsky died 43 years ago on June 12, 1972, his writings influenced those in political control of our nation today, especially, Obama and Hillary Clinton. All eight of his radical rules are currently in play. Anyone out there think that this stuff isn’t happening today in the U.S.? How to create a socialist state by Saul Alinsky: There are eight levels of control that must be obtained before you are able to create a socialist state. The first is the most important. 1) Healthcare—Control healthcare and you control the people. 2) Poverty—Increaser the poverty level as high as possible; poor people are easier to control and will not fight back if you are providing everything for them to live. 3) Debt—Increase the debt to an unsustainable level. That way you are able to increase taxes, and this will produce more poverty. 4) Gun control—Remove the ability to defend themselves from the government. That way you are able to create a police state. 5) Welfare—Take control of every aspect of their lives (Food, Housing, and Income) 6) Education—Take control of what people read and listen to—take control of what children learn in school. 7) Religion—Remove the belief in the God from the government and schools. 8) Class Warfare—Divide the people into the wealthy and the poor. This will cause more discontent, and it will be easier to tax the wealthy with the support of the poor.

jerry

Paxx, do we have operational details? Or do you mean, guard detail, however composed, etc. KF kairosfocus

Who here is for securing the schools as federal buildings are secured, and as Biden, Pelosi and Shumer are secured? [ ] Yes [ ] No Paxx

As Hans Rosling showed, the more educated one is, the more uninformed one is.

They're not truly educated. They're indoctrinated. I watched a long interview with Naomi Wolf last night (Epoch TV) and she explained how absorbing information from select, mainstream media (NY Times, CNN, MSNBC) caused her to become misinformed. That's a startling admission from someone who still claims to be "of the left" as she does, but just openly admitted that she was propagandized by the news media and never even heard of the other side of the story. It's the same with higher-education. A student can spend years in a college or university and never be truly educated, even in a single topic of interest. Silver Asiatic

I have noticed that people here are more than willing to compare the US against other countries, both current and historic, when it supports their arguments, but claim that the comparisons are irrelevant when they don’t. Cake, meet mouth. JHolo

An excellent explanation for some of the commenters here. Why they act like zombies and don’t respond to logic. They are typical of a small but significant part of the educated. As Hans Rosling showed, the more educated one is, the more uninformed one is. They are also intransigent to evidence and logic. https://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/2022/06/11/the-management-of-fanaticism-n1604302 jerry

OK, how about comparing to the Nordic countries, which have a similar per capita GDP

Two things. First: They are small. Together they don’t equal Texas in population (30 million for Texas: Denmark 5.8 million, Sweden 10.4 million, Norway 5.4 million, Finland 5.5 million) Should I include Iceland and the Faroe Islands? Second: they are essentially homogeneous. They look like my state, New Hampshire in ethnicity. The US in total looks more like Brazil than any country of Scandinavia and especially if they are taken together. Their gdp per person is Denmark $67,000, Sweden $52,000 Norway $68,000, Finland $49,000 and US $76,000. (Norway essentially has free energy) Is this Jack Fruit vs strawberries? Again the question: why the nonsense comparisons? jerry

It is pointed out that all the countries compared to the US don’t resemble the US and yet they are repeated.. There is one statistic about the countries listed. They all have substantial gdp per person less than the US.

OK, how about comparing to the Nordic countries, which have a similar per capita GDP. Bob O'H

F/N: One of the underlying issues: https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2022/06/its_the_mental_health_system_stupid.html

The elephant in the room is mental health care in America, a problem which makes people uncomfortable and which they would rather not talk about. How bad is it? According to Johns Hopkins University: “An estimated 26% of Americans ages 18 and older -- about 1 in 4 adults -- suffers from a diagnosable mental disorder in a given year.” [--> 25% roughly] Going further, “Many people suffer from more than one mental disorder at a given time. In particular, depressive illnesses tend to co-occur with substance abuse and anxiety disorders.” [--> Depression is a leading influence on suicide; recall, we are dealing with extended suicides, where, too, worldview and incoherent, unrealistic patterns of thought are strongly implicated in many mental illnesses] They also note that, “9.5% of American adults ages 18 and over, will suffer from a depressive illness (major depression, bipolar disorder, or dysthymia) each year.” [--> about 1 in 10, probably made worse by lockdowns etc] And that, “Approximately 1% of Americans are affected by schizophrenia.” Is there any doubt that if 1 in 4 Americans suffered from breast cancer or AIDS, the attention currently devoted to these illnesses would increase by orders of magnitude? But with mental illness, society and elected officials yawn or awkwardly look the other way. Recent socio-economic conditions are certainly not helping matters . . . . According to the Colorado Coalition for the Homeless, “Research shows that 71 percent of people experiencing homelessness have a mental illness or post-traumatic stress. Additionally, 59 percent are struggling with long- term substance use disorders,” the latter often going hand in hand with mental illness in these situations. If quality mental health care is not available, self-care through street drugs becomes the alternative. [--> apparently 24 out of 25 of institutional beds in institutions that were there in the 50's are now gone under various activist campaigns to de institutionalise]

Tying in crime and mass murder:

A Stanford study reviewed, “35 mass shooting cases that occurred in the United States between 1982 and 2019 and involved shooters who survived and were brought to trial.” They discovered, “28 had mental illness diagnoses. Eighteen had schizophrenia and 10 had other diagnoses including bi-polar disorder, delusional disorder, personality disorders, and substance-related disorders.” 80 percent of mass shooters in this study had a mental illness, undertreated, or not treated at all. [--> we can note that suicide is closely linked to depression] It's not only mass shooters, but other random violent crime. As the New York Post recently reported, a man diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia who does not take his medication regularly was arrested after brutally beating a cell phone store employee in Phoenix. Decades ago, he would have been hospitalized or institutionalized if he was a danger to himself or others. Today he is free to terrorize people.

Something is fundamentally wrong. KF kairosfocus

JH, I spoke to the Commonwealth cases but principles are far wider. The fundamental difference is I believe there is something that is of the essence or nature of being human and that it confers rights antecedent to any state, with associated duties, and hold the core is self evident. There is no duty to be a victim. I note that a state that is as the US has become has forfeited the presumption of innocence given abuse of law and guilt of blood. As for what I hold please do not project to me what you assume, my views are laid out in 30 above. I suggest you examine the traditional Swiss approach. KF kairosfocus

KF, this isn’t limited to commonwealth countries. There are many other countries where the use of guns in self defence is not a given. In many US states, you can shoot anyone who is on your property if you believe that your life is threatened (castle laws). That has resulted in numerous people being killed, usually people of colour, because they happened to be in the wrong neighbourhood. Several states also have “stand your ground” laws, which have also resulted in the deaths of many unarmed people. I honestly don’t see the rationale for your opposition to basic gun control. Licensing, waiting period, background checks, etc. JHolo

PS, a review and excerpts from Locke on self defence https://drrichswier.com/2020/07/04/the-natural-law-of-self-defense/ Ponder here from 799 above:

PS, the underlying issue is, is there a manifest right to and/or duty of effective self defence and defence of the local community from enemies foreign and domestic; in an era of violent lawless nihilism in the street and the halls of government. The US Framers and early modern thinkers traditionally pointed to means of flight or fight built into the bodies of animals and even some plants. Humans are not particularly fast or fearsomely armed but have intelligence and manual dexterity. As Otzi showed, flint knapping, metal making and wood working provided tools, weapons and means of protective mobility as part of our earliest technology in defence of human thriving. Unfortunately for him, he seems to have been ambushed and shot in the back with an arrow. Self defence with effective means provides for thriving of the protected community, its families and individuals. Where, principal-agent theory clearly teaches us a lesson backed by Machiavelli and the collapse of the W Roman Empire alike. Hired protection with monopoly on the means of force soon has its own interests and agendas such that it is likely to manipulate or seize power in pursuit of its own agendas, a known threat to the civil peace of justice. This is part of why the US framers, who had just liberated themselves through having people and communities that were locally and personally armed [minutemen, April 19, 1775], in appending a demanded explicit bill of rights, recognised principles of reasonable armament for local and individual defence, a check and balance to abuses and usurpations. This is, again, implied in the DoI, 1776. Police, national armed forces, courts, elections can all fail or become corrupted, knowing that states and communities can withdraw consent and defend it is a salutary check to and balance of the tendency of agents to compromise the interests of their principals. This implies access of individuals and families to infantry weapons. [Until v recently, in Switzerland one kept a full auto capable battle rifle and ammunition with uniform so one could defend locally and/or fight through to mobilisation centre]. It implies that communities should have local effective control of heavier weapons. It implies the unorganised militia principle in the above, with room for individual conscientious dissent, every able bodied person of relevant age and sound mind is automatically a member of the militia and is liable for conscription. At Chernobyl in 1986, men were taken off the streets and put into the fight with the meltdown, on this self same principle. In that context given limited utility of automatic weapons, semiauto intermediate cartridge arms are reasonable, and reasonable regulations to address criminality are reasonable. In 30 above, I used the militia principle to suggest that abusers of weapons or potential weapons to include vehicles, fertiliser, cooking gas bottles, kitchen knives, utility knives etc, are liable to court martial with full powers. Trial in civil court is a privilege of courtesy for such matters of violation of lawful use of militia equipment. Reasonable armament clearly includes 9 mm semiauto pistols and AR15 or similar semiauto rifles with standard magazines. The sly disarmament by backdoor subterfuges in current exploit the crisis pushes speak to abuses and usurpations. Likewise the refusal to headline and emphasise the case of a car mowing down at a Christmas parade in Wisconsin also speaks. If you think it is bizarre and backward for 100 million Americans to take seriously their self defence, that is suggestive. Especially for someone likely benefitting from the umbrella of the USN and the marines and army they would convey. That holds for Europe, it holds for the ME, it holds for the island chain off China, it holds for Oceania, it holds for the Indian subcontinent and S Asia, it holds for the Americas. 100+ years ago, that was the RN, but now Britain has retired. Who else would back a carrier fleet of about a dozen top level ships, with more of second rank? Without the consent of the US heartlanders, that shield would fail. And don’t suggest NATO or the UN, they already show how they disqualify themselves. Geostrategic vultures are the threat not the defence. Ponder the consequences.

And of course more. kairosfocus

JH, you still fail to see that self defence by reasonable, effective means is a corollary right to the right to life. There is no duty to be a victim, whatever twisted thinking certain Commonwealth jurisdictions have managed to put on the books. Where, it was precisely the push to disarm colonies facing credible threat that specifically triggered the events of April 19, 1775. KF kairosfocus

Jerry, you keep saying irrelevant but other than broad generalizations, you have failed to demonstrate why this claim is valid. JHolo

comparing apples and Jack Fruit

I believe someone used this expression. That’s what you are doing. I’m not sure which is which. Take your pick. The crime/use of guns is in the differences with the US but yet you persist. Everything you say is irrelevant but I guess you know that. The interesting question is why most of your posts are so illogical. jerry

Jerry: am I point out that countries like Australia, New Zealand and Canada are irrelevant for comparison to the US and immediately there is a rehash of irrelevancies between them and the US.

Claiming comparisons are irrelevant and proving they are are two different things. Canada has large cities, it is racially and culturally diverse, it has homeless and poverty, it has big cities and gangs. It has high divorce rates and single parent families. It has a higher rate of atheism than the US. One thing that is very different is the ready access to weapons. JHolo

I point out that countries like Australia, New Zealand and Canada are irrelevant for comparison to the US and immediately there is a rehash of irrelevancies between them and the US.

I’m not sure. Is there a term for dismissing comparisons with irrelevant nonsense?

Yes, it is called logic. jerry

From our friend Wiki about guns used for self defence.

Australia gun laws and self defence: A person must have a firearm licence to possess or use a firearm. Licence holders must demonstrate a "genuine reason" (which does not include self-defence) for holding a firearm licence[2] and must not be a "prohibited person". All firearms must be registered by serial number to the owner, who must also hold a firearms licence. New Zealand gun laws and self defence: In the Arms Code, a manual on firearms safety, the New Zealand Police advise that "[t]he law does not permit the possession of firearms 'in anticipation' that a firearm may need to be used in self-defence." Canada gun laws and self defence: The Firearms Act, 1995 provides a legal framework wherein an individual may acquire, possess, and carry a restricted or (a specific class of) prohibited firearm for protection from other individuals when police protection is deemed insufficient.[56] This situation is extremely rare: the RCMP authorization to carry application refers only to protection of life during employment that involves handling of valuable goods or dangerous wildlife.

I might add that Canada and Australia have safe storage and transportation requirements that would make a firearm ineffective as a defence weapon under most circumstances. JHolo

https://twitter.com/donwinslow/status/1535814479480430592?s=21&t=SWhQaegBAaCnFiDXfO4noQ JHolo

Jerry: Is there a term for repeating the same irrelevant nonsense over and over?

I’m not sure. Is there a term for dismissing comparisons with irrelevant nonsense? JHolo

There is a term for willful, closed minded, deaf to fact and reason selectively hyperskeptical, often cynical objectionism, willful obtuseness. kairosfocus

Is there a term for repeating the same irrelevant nonsense over and over? It is pointed out that all the countries compared to the US don’t resemble the US and yet they are repeated.. There is one statistic about the countries listed. They all have substantial gdp per person less than the US. Maybe that is relevant in addition to ethnic makeup of the poor in US. If one were to look at the areas with high crime/homicide/rates in the US they all would be run by the political faction calling for gun confiscation Everyone who has half a brain and is honest knows this has nothing to do with guns or violence to children. jerry

Again, as it is being studiously side stepped [another all too typical rhetorical pattern], no one has or can have a duty to be a victim. kairosfocus

As was long since noted https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/crime-rate-by-country kairosfocus

In states where elected officials have taken action to pass gun safety laws, fewer people die by gun violence. https://everytownresearch.org/rankings/

But there's one thing that is indisputable in the available data on gun violence -- and the data is limited since until recently the federal government was effectively barred from gathering it. The indisputable fact is that where there are more guns, there are more gun deaths. https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/05/26/politics/gun-violence-data-what-matters/index.html

And further:

These are the 20 states with the highest firearm homicide rates in the country along with their gun-friendliness scores: Louisiana: 11.0 (3) Mississippi: 10.2 (5) Alabama: 9.5 (4) Missouri: 8.5 (5) Maryland: 7.4 (1) South Carolina: 7.4 (3) Tennessee: 6.7 (4) Illinois: 6.5 (2) Arkansas: 6.2 (3) Georgia: 6.2 (4) Alaska: 6.0 (5) New Mexico: 5.7 (4) Oklahoma: 5.7 (4) Indiana: 5.3 (4) Delaware: 5.1 (2) North Carolina: 5.0 (4) Nevada: 4.8 (3) Ohio: 4.8 (4) Kentucky: 4.7 (4) Florida: 4.6 (4) https://www.criminalattorneycincinnati.com/comparing-gun-control-measures-to-gun-related-homicides-by-state/

JHolo

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/02/03/what-the-data-says-about-gun-deaths-in-the-u-s/ft_22-01-26_gundeaths_4/ JHolo

Typical (Median) Annual Death Rate per Million People from Mass Public Shootings (U.S., Canada, and Europe, 2009-2015): United States — 0.058 Albania — 0 Austria — 0 Belgium — 0 Czech Republic — 0 Finland — 0 France — 0 Germany — 0 Italy — 0 Macedonia — 0 Netherlands — 0 Norway — 0 Russia — 0 Serbia — 0 Slovakia — 0 Switzerland — 0 United Kingdom — 0

JHolo

JH, Amazing;y, I just had to comment on your pattern of strawman arguments. Let's see some problems you demonstrated yet again:

KF,883 : >>If self defense is a right, it is a natural right, so no jurisdiction can repeal it, only, it can seek to suppress, leading to incoherent chaos . . . . The direct implication [of Mr Tudeau's comments] is, you have a duty to be a victim [especially in the face of a mob], something so absurd it speaks for itself. Ask the ghosts of the victims of the Holocaust and the Communist tyrannies how that went. Ask the woman trampled by a police horse and ask her why her address now says Florida.>> JH, 886: "using a gun for self-defence has never been a right in Canada."

In short, you here misrepresent what a core right is, and its root. In this case, the corollary right to defend oneself by effective means when one's life is threatened; life, being the first right. That is, core rights are not grants of the state, to be given or withheld at will, as say the Nazis did in Germany. And it is not for nothing that it was pointed out that Mr Trudeau et al even in Canada are protected by armed guards. This error is tied to the positivist view of law, which obviously opens the door to will to power nihilism. Core rights are rooted in our nature, and can neither be granted nor withdrawn by the state or its agents. What a sound state does is to acknowledge those rights, and certainly it does not inject the absurdity that those who are deemed worthy have protection but Lebensunwertes Leben are stripped of such protection. Of course, this breakdown extends to the single biggest instance of violence in our contemporary world, every week another million of our living posterity are slaughtered, adding to a total that per statistical reports exceeds 1.4 billions since the turn of the 70's. As for major cultural and historical differences between the US and neighbours, those have been noted but ignored. The underlying issue, in both criminality and state overreach, is nihilism which sets at zero as it wishes, here, the right to self defence by effective means. There is no duty to be a victim. KF kairosfocus

KF@884, using a gun for self-defence has never been a right in Canada. Neither has using force to protect your property. And this approach has worked very well. Canada has a lower homicide rate, a lower violent crime rate and a lower robbery rate than the US, where you have the right to use a gun to defend yourself and, in many states, to defend property. JHolo

A data base of self defense using guns. https://datavisualizations.heritage.org/firearms/defensive-gun-uses-in-the-us/ jerry

Right on cue: https://thepostmillennial.com/watch-trudeau-says-using-a-gun-for-self-defence-is-not-a-right-that-you-have-in-canada/

"There are debates," Trudeau continued, "and we have a culture where the difference is, guns can be used for hunting or for sport-shooting in Canada, and there are lots of gun owners, and they're mostly law-respecting and law abiding, but you can't use a gun for self-protection in Canada. That's not a right that you have in the Constitution or anywhere else." "If you try and buy a gun and say it's for self-protection," Trudeau said, "No, you don't get that."

1: If self defense is a right, it is a natural right, so no jurisdiction can repeal it, only, it can seek to suppress, leading to incoherent chaos. 2: This is the same positivist error resurfacing. 3: The direct implication is, you have a duty to be a victim [especially in the face of a mob], something so absurd it speaks for itself. Ask the ghosts of the victims of the Holocaust and the Communist tyrannies how that went. Ask the woman trampled by a police horse and ask her why her address now says Florida. 4: The invited suggestion that the majority of firearms owners next door are lawless is equally nonsensical. 5: Raw power grab, pivoting on the notion that law is whatever those who control the legal presses decree. That's why justice -- due balance of rights, freedoms, duties -- is being frustrated. 6: The fundamental error is that of imagining one can soundly decree that a nine sided polygon is a hexagon. KF kairosfocus

JH, you refuse to attend to the balance of the case, the same error General Thomas Gage made; he clearly failed to understand the matches he was playing with. In addition, let me note another factor: power factions stained with the blood of 63 millions killed under false colour of law, who are playing reichstag fire incident games -- learn from history do not cynically label and dismiss it -- and are targetting the lawful not the lawless do not have a great deal of credibility, eg the latest resort to deceptive editing in service to show trials does not help. But then, there is already enough on the table to make the point, including correctives on crime and violence rates. At this point, that locked in approach is further evidence on why absent something of an undeserved grace, this is headed to disaster with even worse geostrategic consequences. KF kairosfocus

KF: April 19, 1775

Not relevant to the issue of the disproportionate incidents of Gun violence and mass shootings in the US. Maybe you should raise the Hitler card. JHolo

April 19, 1775 kairosfocus

Relatd: Yes, I did misunderstand. Sorry.

Not to worry. If I had a nickel for every comment I misunderstood, I would be a rich man. JHolo

JHolo at 878, Yes, I did misunderstand. Sorry. relatd

Relatd: JHolo at 871, You apparently do not think well.

I’m afraid you misunderstood my comment. It was intended to relay the fact that those who are willing to use their guns to prevent the government from taking their guns are clearly delusional. JHolo

ET: Makes me think of Nazi Germany, JHolo

And, surprisingly, most developed countries have a level of gun control much more restrictive than that in the US, and they didn’t trigger a NAZI regime. JHolo

PPS, let's follow up: https://www.nationalreview.com/2013/12/how-nazis-used-gun-control-stephen-p-halbrook/

How the Nazis Used Gun Control Share By Stephen P. Halbrook December 2, 2013 9:00 AM . . . In 1931, Weimar authorities discovered plans for a Nazi takeover in which Jews would be denied food and persons refusing to surrender their guns within 24 hours would be executed. They were written by Werner Best, a future Gestapo official. In reaction to such threats, the government authorized the registration of all firearms and the confiscation thereof, if required for “public safety.” The interior minister warned that the records must not fall into the hands of any extremist group. In 1933, the ultimate extremist group, led by Adolf Hitler, seized power and used the records to identify, disarm, and attack political opponents and Jews. Constitutional rights were suspended, and mass searches for and seizures of guns and dissident publications ensued. Police revoked gun licenses of Social Democrats and others who were not “politically reliable.” During the five years of repression that followed, society was “cleansed” by the National Socialist regime. Undesirables were placed in camps where labor made them “free,” and normal rights of citizenship were taken from Jews. The Gestapo banned independent gun clubs and arrested their leaders. Gestapo counsel Werner Best issued a directive to the police forbidding issuance of firearm permits to Jews. In 1938, Hitler signed a new Gun Control Act. Now that many “enemies of the state” had been removed from society, some restrictions could be slightly liberalized, especially for Nazi Party members. But Jews were prohibited from working in the firearms industry, and .22 caliber hollow-point ammunition was banned. The time had come to launch a decisive blow to the Jewish community, to render it defenseless so that its “ill-gotten” property could be redistributed as an entitlement to the German “Volk.” The German Jews were ordered to surrender all their weapons, and the police had the records on all who had registered them. Even those who gave up their weapons voluntarily were turned over to the Gestapo.

The central issue is not firearms, it is nihilism. KF kairosfocus

Relatd & JH, it is not the individual in isolation, it is the train of will to power abuses and usurpations to get there, that points to balkanised disintegration of the societal compact. That is why some pols have talked about nukes and armoured forces. This is also why the imposition of mass slaughter of living posterity under colour of law and the extreme threats used to try to sustain it are also pivotal: life is the first right. Unfortunately, given the linchpin role of the US Navy in global stability, chaos in the US will predictably have grave geostrategic consequences. Those who have been pushing, pushing, playing reichstag fire incident games and neatly sidestepping what does not fit their agenda (e.g. the car attack in Wisconsin two days after Rittenhouse's self defence argument won his case) are playing with big matches next to a powder keg. KF PS, were the Jews allowed to "keep" their rights, not just their weapons? kairosfocus

Paxx at 870, Another invincible person who has a large weapons supply. The U.S. government has the time and the manpower to dig you out and take your weapons. relatd

ET at 872, Back to the favorite villain, NAZIs? What do you know about "Nazi" Germany? I had a relative who was in Nazi Germany during the war. He had a gun. He was neither a Nazi or German. JHolo at 871, You apparently do not think well. When your group armed with dozens of assault rifles and hundreds of thousands of rounds of ammunition are surrounded by U.S. government agents in your underground bunker, how long do you think you'll last? When the tear gas starts seeping in, it won't be long. Back when the Second Amendment was written, they did not have the armored vehicles and listening devices that will be used against you. relatd

Makes me think of Nazi Germany, JHolo ET

Does the fact that people would be willing to use their guns to prevent the government from taking them away their guns not make people think? JHolo

Here's the thing: We're not giving up our guns. So piss off. Paxx

Jerry re 853 Thanks for the link, that was an excellent analysis. Vivid vividbleau

The Epoch Times !!! The Propaganda Rag ??!!!!??? Forget about this person. I can tell everyone with confidence that we never left Feudal Times. Kings no longer wear robes or crowns but continue as Presidents and Prime Ministers. The peasants are still the working class. Today, the idle rich have a new toy - the internet - to amuse themselves with. They can spread fake information globally, and in multiple languages, almost instantly. They have created fake money and insist it's real. They have burned a lot of electricity in the NON- ""mining"" of Bitcoin. So the wealthy and the landowners are still in charge, and some are inclined to follow whim and personal fancy. And why not? Especially when the world is your own personal oyster. relatd

In 2007 Naomi Wolf was still a well credentialed progressive who wrote a long article in the Guardian about a coup by the fascist Bush administration. Now that she has abandoned many of her left leanings, she is persona non grata. Here is what she wrote 15 years ago when she was a darling of the left.

Fascist America, in 10 easy steps Invoke a terrifying internal and external enemy Create a gulag Develop a thug caste Set up an internal surveillance system Harass citizens' groups Engage in arbitrary detention and release Target key individuals Control the press Dissent equals treason Suspend the rule of law

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/apr/24/usa.comment Now an article about her and the current world. https://www.theepochtimes.com/naomi-wolf-were-now-in-the-last-stage-of-a-tyrannical-takeover_4513369.html jerry

Jerry and others here repeatedly claim that the world’s security and freedoms are dependent on the US. If this is true, then US policies are definitely my business

Yes! But one has to be able to differentiate between unrelated things when the only connection is that both could be true. There is a lot of conflating of irrelevant things going on in this thread. And most are missing the basic point. Which is why Big Tech and Big Money are behind all the attempted oppression going on? jerry

Paxx: You being a Canadian, this is all really none of your business.

Actually I am Australian, originally from Canada. And with regard to it being my business, Jerry and others here repeatedly claim that the world’s security and freedoms are dependent on the US. If this is true, then US policies are definitely my business. JHolo

Paxx, good points generally. I do note, there are potential geostrategic, global consequences that are a lot more frightening than April 19, 1775. That means we are all stakeholders, but so many are taken in by clever talk points and media dominance, including when one does a search. The other day searching on cannabis concerns, I saw how that manipulation covers everything. KF kairosfocus

JH, crocodile death roll involving turnabout projection. Meanwhile you are not cogently addressing the issues on the table, 850, that start with

What part of, those whose hands are stained with democide under false colour of law to the tune of 63 millions growing at 25,000 more per week long term average have forfeited the presumption of innocence, do you fail to recognise? Apart from, what part of the many cat out of bag statements and the implications, auras and penumbras of precedents do you not understand? For example, a seemingly innocuous allegedly ban on magazines can effectively ban classes of firearms, the magazine being a key part of functionality. Where, a pattern of lying, slander, lawfare and reichstag fire incident exploitation of incidents further degrades community social capital, with several contrasting cases being highly instructive on the nihilism at work. That is part of why the US DoI speaks of a long train of abuses and usurpations. That is also part of why I am warning — it is a warning — on potential flashpoints.

Track record has consequences and we are dealing with the same factions that for 49 years have advanced mass slaughter of the defenceless unborn under colour of law, rights and freedom [to kill at will]. 49 years is long enough to be well within long train of abuses and usurpations territory. Of course, you will not substantially address Heller, you will simply spout twisted misreadings that Heller exposed. Further reason to take you as less than credible with words. Far above and in your presence this was addressed. The fundamental problem is there has been material breach of trust, coming from factions that embedded mass killing of the defenceless innocent under colour of law. Until that is dealt with, nothing can be resolved. And no, continued projections and drumbeat repetitions of long since cogently answered assertions simply show further the breach of the civil compact. Of course, these are ever so many tangents away from the issues in OP and which I amplified in 30 above. https://uncommondescent.com/off-topic/defend-the-children/#comment-755900 KF kairosfocus

JHolo: well regulated In 1789 "well regulated" simply meant "well functioning." The "militia" is every able bodied man. It has nothing to do with "government regulation" as is known today. "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed" still means exactly that. Heller vs D.C. settled the matter. I suggest you read Federalist Paper 29. Driving Driving isn't a Constitutional right. I would be very happy if similar requirements were applied to gun ownership. Wouldn't matter to the criminals who want to commit crimes. If you are really concerned for children's lives in schools, get behind making schools secure and safe regardless of gun laws. You being a Canadian, this is all really none of your business. Paxx

KF: Any one seeking to impose a novel reading of the US Const 2nd Amdt needs to substantially address Heller

I wasn’t aware that the 19 children were killed by a well regulated militia.

PS, Why is it that firearms use and safety is not a routine part of high school curricula, similar to driving?

Driving isn’t part of the routine curriculum. But if you want to drive you have to demonstrate that you can safely and competently operate a motorized vehicle, understand the rules of the road and obtain a licence that must be renewed on a scheduled frequency. I would be very happy if similar requirements were applied to gun ownership. JHolo

KF: PS, on turnabout tactics exposed. Yup, we have seen them before here at UD.

Demonstrating that someone is guilty of the same thing that they are accusing others of is not a turnabout projection. It is simply a statement of fact. For example, you keep accusing me of raising strawman arguments. If I am doing this it is because your arguments are almost indecipherable, not an intentional tactic on my part. But when I point out that I have never suggested disarming the citizenry, your responding arguments are about the dangers of disarming the citizenry. This is a glaring example of a strawman argument. JHolo

ET, 2 - 3 round bursts do extend the MP44 case, but they are restricted automatic fire, multiple rounds on one trigger pull. Where, that is in fact the proper way to use a full automatic weapon, long bursts are little more than a waste of ammunition. I recall being woken up in the night in my native city to hear a firefight in progress, noting the precise five round bursts coming from one side. KF kairosfocus

F/N: Any one seeking to impose a novel reading of the US Const 2nd Amdt needs to substantially address Heller https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/07pdf/07-290.pdf The fact that these considerations are being routinely shirked is part of why we should be wary indeed, recalling the potential geostrategic consequences. KF PS, Why is it that firearms use and safety is not a routine part of high school curricula, similar to driving? And I would add units on key drugs that deliver substantial warnings, alcohol, tobacco, marijuana, opiates and opioids, designer drugs. In civics, some soundness on the US founding is called for. If the instructors cannot soundly address the US DoI, they are not qualified. kairosfocus

3 round bursts make it an assault rifle, too. ET

ET, without full auto you do not have an assault rifle. Full size rifle rounds are also not intermediate rounds adapted for, full auto. Accuracy of language counts. KF kairosfocus

F/N: Turnabout blame the target/victim projection is a main facet of another Schicklegruber special, the big lie: https://www.historiography-project.com/misc/biglie.php

it remained for the Jews, with their unqualified capacity for falsehood, and their fighting comrades, the Marxists, to impute responsibility for the downfall [of Germany in WWI] precisely to the man who alone had shown a superhuman will and energy in his effort to prevent the catastrophe which he had foreseen and to save the nation from that hour of complete overthrow and shame. By placing responsibility for the loss of the world war on the shoulders of Ludendorff they took away the weapon of moral right from the only adversary dangerous enough to be likely to succeed in bringing the betrayers of the Fatherland to Justice. All this was inspired by the principle — which is quite true in itself — that in the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility; because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily, and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale falsehoods. It would never come into their heads to fabricate colossal untruths, and they would not believe that others could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously. Even though the facts which prove this to be so may be brought clearly to their minds, they will still doubt and waver and will continue to think that there may be some other explanation. For the grossly impudent lie always leaves traces behind it, even after it has been nailed down, a fact which is known to all expert liars in this world and to all who conspire together in the art of lying. These people know only too well how to use falsehood for the basest purposes. From time immemorial, however, the Jews have known better than any others how falsehood and calumny can be exploited. [Adolf Hitler. Mein Kampf. James Murphy, translator. London, New York, Melbourne: Hurst and Blackett Ltd; April 1942; page 134. ]

Notice, the concept is defined by projecting blame to the target, through the stabbed us in the back legend. We see how big whoppers gain double persuasive effect from distraction to the despised other and the implication of what we now call concern trollery, we are seemingly being given good advice by the concerned and by suggestion credible. In reality, we are dealing with nihilistic pathological lying and slanderous projection. How can we deal with this, given that we have already seen the beginnings of a crocodile death roll by doubling down. Well, 1: Learn the reality of the tactic and its root. Here, one of the most notorious blood soaked pieces of deceit in writing foisted on a nation and world, ending in world war and holocaust. 2: Recognise lessons of history. A common big lie turnabout projection is that history is deceitful victory propaganda. In reality, history is just as often written by the losers of the war, Josephus and Herodotus, Thucydides, Plato and even Cicero are cases in point [he literally lost his head.]. 3: Instead, the lessons of sound history were bought with blood, treasure and tears; those who neglect, ignore or dismiss them, doom themselves to pay in the same coin over and over and over again. This is one reason why there are so many melancholy rhymes of history. 4: To that end of sound, prudent thinking, we must recognise the branch on which we all sit, first duties of reason and their binding nature as self evident truths of duty that it is misanthropic, nihilistic and anti civilisational to dismiss or deride . . . the drearily familiar trollish set to zero, cancel it out, will to power tactic. 5: Namely, our duties

1st – to truth, 2nd – to right reason, 3rd – to prudence [including warrant], 4th – to sound conscience, 5th – to neighbour; so also, 6th – to fairness and 7th – to justice [ . . .] xth – etc.

6: Thus, we should prize what is substantial, based on sound facts, cogent argument and draws prudent recommendations. Just the opposite of the cynical hateful, toxic barbs we see far too much of. Before we can find the path to sound reformation, we have a lot to learn and sometimes even more to unlearn. KF kairosfocus

Full auto is not required. Just a powerful rifle, such as the AR 15. But I would go bigger. M1A at a minimum for feral hogs. ET

From very liberal progressive feminist to a defender of truth and logic, Naomi Wolf talks about gun control and the obvious. Very long and very good.

Rethinking the Second Amendment Can We Indeed Have Peace and Freedom Without Guns

https://naomiwolf.substack.com/p/rethinking-the-second-amendment?s=r I personally would never own a gun but could see myself going through a training regimen on using various guns. I also support the proposed age limit change to 21 for ownership but also support training for 18 years and above if they want it. Nobody wants “nut jobs” owning guns and maybe required training would ferret these people out. The one drawback is the arbitrary restrictions on people for political beliefs. This is a back door way of imposing gun restrictions for political purposes. jerry

JH, pointing out use of a known, demonstrated agit prop tactic -- and its roots -- is not an empty appeal. You are trying to speak for a faction as described. You are doubling down on turnabout projection. KF PS, on turnabout tactics exposed. Yup, we have seen them before here at UD. kairosfocus

KF: JH, turnabout projection, pioneered by Mr Schicklegruber and co.

Ahh. Playing the Hitler card again. And it’s not turnabout projection. I never suggested disarming society but you keep responding to me with this flaming strawman. This is speaking in disregard to truth. JHolo

JH, turnabout projection, pioneered by Mr Schicklegruber and co. What part of, those whose hands are stained with democide under false colour of law to the tune of 63 millions growing at 25,000 more per week long term average have forfeited the presumption of innocence, do you fail to recognise? Apart from, what part of the many cat out of bag statements and the implications, auras and penumbras of precedents do you not understand? For example, a seemingly innocuous allegedly ban on magazines can effectively ban classes of firearms, the magazine being a key part of functionality. Where, a pattern of lying, slander, lawfare and reichstag fire incident exploitation of incidents further degrades community social capital, with several contrasting cases being highly instructive on the nihilism at work. That is part of why the US DoI speaks of a long train of abuses and usurpations. That is also part of why I am warning -- it is a warning -- on potential flashpoints. You will notice, I warned about nonlinear responses that make nonsense of oh so seemingly reasonable projections. On March 19. 1775, the British Governor of Massachusetts clearly did not understand what disarming people facing hostile threats implied [Americans were not peasants dependent on the military protection of their betters], and he for sure did not expect uprising, a battle with serious British casualties, civil war, revolution and losing world war. Some pretty deep, pretty ugly issues will have to be faced if disaster is to be averted, and I agree with Jerry that time is running out. KF kairosfocus

ET, full auto? I doubt it, bad as those critters are. have you seen the tusks or fangs on a grown boar? [I remember seeing the fangs on a monkey up close the first time -- it was begging me to tickle it, most impressive.] KF kairosfocus

KF: It seems a credible threat has been made against the life of a Supreme Court justice.

I guess further hardening is required, because there is no desire to keep guns away from nut-jobs. Maybe the justices should be forced to undergo active shooter drills like school children do. JHolo

KF: This is an obvious flashpoint for escalated conflict and it is NOT coincidental that pretty much the same factions that seek to disarm the citizenry are the ones advocating for continued holocaust.

KF, yet another twisted pretzel strawman. We are not talking about disarming the citizenry. We are just talking about reasonable gun controls and restrictions on assault weapons and magazine size. All in all, you have made it quite evident that you are not arguing to truth, or with right reason or prudence. JHolo

In Texas they need assault rifles to deal with the feral hogs. ET

PS, you seem to misunderstand the double covenant, nationhood and government under our common Creator framework found in the US DoI but rooted in reformation thinking going back to Vindiciae and the Dutch DoU, 1579 and 81 respectively:

When . . . it becomes necessary for one people . . . to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God [--> natural law context is explicit] entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind [--> they were consciously universal in their appeal] requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. We hold these truths to be self-evident, [cf Rom 1:18 - 21, 2:14 - 15; note, law as "the highest reason," per Cicero on received consensus], that all men are created equal [--> note, equality of humanity], that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights [--> thus there are correlative duties and freedoms framed by the balance], that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security . . . . We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions [Cf. Judges 11:27], do, in the Name, and by the Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.

First, lawful, legitimate, functional Government defends the civil peace of justice, due balance of rights, freedoms, duties, DoI here uses the window of rights. Where Government goes wrong, lower magistrates and/or representatives of the people/nation have a right and duty of remonstrance to petition for redress. When however government becomes lawless, there is material breach of the second covenant, which legitimises forceful reform or replacement. Since that time the general election imposes a peaceful case for replacement on solemn assembly to audit. (One of the advantages of Republican form constitutional democratic government; formerly, change of dynasty was an occasional process, too often accomplished by war. See the history of Israelite monarchy for the framework behind the thought of the US founders..) In this context, the 49 year old decision that pretended justification for at will killing of our living posterity in the womb was abusive, destructive and a usurpation. It led to a holocaust of 63 millions. Those who objected, despite this great provocation have tried to work with the system to effect reform. Now that reform is in the offing, it is clear that powerful interests who have become lawless and are committed to further blood guilt, are determined to do almost anything to reimpose their will. This is an obvious flashpoint for escalated conflict and it is NOT coincidental that pretty much the same factions that seek to disarm the citizenry are the ones advocating for continued holocaust. 2 + 3 = 5. kairosfocus

JH, yet another twisted pretzel strawman. Murder is an inherent crime. You continue to use an arbitrary, manipulative term as well. Next, you refuse to heed the evidence that reduced to sound per capita comparatives, the USA is not the outlier, though any mass killing is to be condemned. All in all, you have made it quite evident that you are not arguing to truth, or with right reason or prudence. That is not how sound policy is built. KF kairosfocus

I’m confused. It is justified and a right to bear arms to defend yourself against the tyranny of government. But not justified when it is directed against a government official who supports what KF supports. Don’t get me wrong. Anyone who threatens a justice who opposes women’s choice should be punished. But, at what point is the use of force to oppose government justified? Maybe if we had some examples of this “tyranny” that justifies the unrestricted access to assault weapons, we could better understand the benefit to society of enabling the worst gun violence and mass shootings in the developed world. JHolo

It seems a credible threat has been made against the life of a Supreme Court justice. kairosfocus

TR The legal and criminal justice systems in the US have lost support from people. Normally, police and law enforcement agencies should be responsible for the safety of the civilian population. So, it's not really that people fear that the US government will attack them so they need guns for that, but rather that criminals may proceed unchecked and some people want to have a gun to protect themselves from that. Whether criminals or violent people are black, white or Hispanic should be irrelevant. I believe we try, in the US, not to assign guilt to groups of people based on their ethnic group or skin color. We're supposed to be one nation and one culture, but if that is no longer possible, then the US will break into warring tribes acting much in the same way tribes conflicted in Rwanda - looking at certain races as inferior. This has been true in the US even among "white" Protestant population conflicted with the Irish and other European Catholics and persecuted them for 100 years or so. America has always been a violent culture. Where wealth, fame and power seem to be within reach of the average person (and those are held as the highest values in the culture) then there will be violent attempts to achieve those things. Then again, Spain had a violent civil war. The anarchists in Italy were violent. The two world wars were European civil wars so to speak - obviously extremely violent. England and Ireland were a conflict lasting centuries. Serbs and Croats had hostilities. Communism was a violent takeover of eastern Europe. So, America is not the only place where there are violent extremes at work and instability. Conflicts can be due to political disagreements or racial clashes. If racial - then a country with more racial diversity than others will potentially have more violent conflict. Where there is less racial diversity, it's easier to attain agreement and commonality of purpose (as in a place like Japan). Silver Asiatic

nothing you have said has been clear from the beginning. I think you are very confused. I think you want to say its Blacks and Hispanics that are the problem, but don’t feel comfortable being that honest

As I said maybe you should stop commenting and ask questions. Everything is extremely logical. These are the facts. 1) The guns are primarily owned by people who do not use them for violence. In fact it is very rare. 2) the violence comes from those in poverty who are mainly black and Hispanic and have access to guns illegally. It is not widespread as most of the country lives as if it does not exist. But it must be horrifying for those who live nearby the violence. 3) To compare the US to other western nations is nonsense since the ethnic makeup is completely different. 4) the security of the world depends on the US. All of the above are true and said several times. But there are also other facts that are relevant. Some are 5) one political faction in the US now governs and has moved extremely to the left after attaining power in the recent election. 6) this political faction has traditionally demanded that guns be confiscated from people who don’t use them for violence. 7) they are the ones who seem to be afraid of the people with guns. The above are some of the facts. There are many others. I personally don’t see the US lasting much longer. It is like a large ship slowly sinking and the passengers are still partying. And when it finally disintegrates the rest of the world that depends on it will face a very different reality. People are blinded by the technology that makes life appear endlessly better. However, the human being has not progressed. I certainly hope this disintegration is not true for my children. But it’s hard to see how this will get any better. The signs of disintegration are becoming more apparent and they currently are not gun violence. jerry

As a start point for rethinking, please, show us a nine sided hexagon. (What, you can't, isn't the term hexagon just a word we can apply as we please, rewriting the dictionary at will, there is no such thing as a nature so there is no difference. So, on such radical nominalism, there is no difference between truth and error, truthfulness and willful deceit, justice and injustice, male and female, knowledge and myth, indoctrination and education, acquitting the innocent and knowingly condemning such, sound policing and the gestapo. See the nihilistic pattern?) kairosfocus

BTW, it sure looks like some shadow shows and moral inversions are being pushed. Complete with Reichstag fire incident tactics. kairosfocus

PPPS, Going beyond, let us recall lessons Plato drew from the Peloponnesian war:

Ath[enian Stranger, in The Laws, Bk X 2,360 ya]. . . .[The avant garde philosophers and poets, c. 360 BC] say that fire and water, and earth and air [i.e the classical "material" elements of the cosmos -- the natural order], all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art . . . [such that] all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only [ --> that is, evolutionary materialism is ancient and would trace all things to blind chance and mechanical necessity; observe, too, the trichotomy: "nature" (here, mechanical, blind necessity), "chance" (similar to a tossed fair die), ART (the action of a mind, i.e. intelligently directed configuration)] . . . . [Thus, they hold] that the principles of justice have no existence at all[--> notice the reduction to zero] in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.-

[ --> Relativism, too, is not new; complete with its radical amorality rooted in a worldview that has no foundational IS that can ground OUGHT, leading to an effectively arbitrary foundation only for morality, ethics, so too justice, law and government: accident of personal preference, the ebbs and flows of power politics, accidents of history and and the shifting sands of manipulated community opinion driven by "winds and waves of doctrine and the cunning craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming . . . " cf a video on Plato's parable of the cave; from the perspective of pondering who set up the manipulative shadow-shows, why.]

These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might,

[ --> Evolutionary materialism -- having no IS that can properly ground OUGHT -- leads to the promotion of amorality on which the only basis for "OUGHT" is seen to be might (and manipulation: might in "spin"), opening the door to cynicism, hyperskepticism and nihilism . . . this is actually an infamous credo of nihilism . . . also, it reeks of cynically manipulative lawless oligarchy . . . ]

and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions [ --> Evolutionary materialism-motivated amorality "naturally" leads to continual contentions and power struggles influenced by that amorality at the hands of ruthless power hungry nihilistic agendas], these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is,to live in real dominion over others [ --> such amoral and/or nihilistic factions, if they gain power, "naturally" tend towards ruthless abuse and arbitrariness . . . they have not learned the habits nor accepted the principles of mutual respect, justice, fairness and keeping the civil peace of justice, so they will want to deceive, manipulate and crush -- as the consistent history of radical revolutions over the past 250 years so plainly shows again and again], and not in legal subjection to them [--> nihilistic will to power not the spirit of justice and lawfulness].

Which gives context to his Ship of State parable on the corrupt, incompetent, ruinous state and its faction dynamics:

It is not too hard to figure out that our civilisation is in deep trouble and is most likely headed for shipwreck. (And of course, that sort of concern is dismissed as “apocalyptic,” or neurotic pessimism that refuses to pause and smell the roses.) Plato’s Socrates spoke to this sort of situation, long since, in the ship of state parable in The Republic, Bk VI:

>>[Soc.] I perceive, I said, that you are vastly amused at having plunged me into such a hopeless discussion; but now hear the parable, and then you will be still more amused at the meagreness of my imagination: for the manner in which the best men are treated in their own States is so grievous that no single thing on earth is comparable to it; and therefore, if I am to plead their cause, I must have recourse to fiction, and put together a figure made up of many things, like the fabulous unions of goats and stags which are found in pictures. Imagine then a fleet or a ship in which there is a captain [–> often interpreted, ship’s owner] who is taller and stronger than any of the crew, but he is a little deaf and has a similar infirmity in sight, and his knowledge of navigation is not much better. [= The people own the community and in the mass are overwhelmingly strong, but are ill equipped on the whole to guide, guard and lead it] The sailors are quarrelling with one another about the steering – every one is of opinion that he has a right to steer [= selfish ambition to rule and dominate], though he has never learned the art of navigation and cannot tell who taught him or when he learned, and will further assert that it cannot be taught, and they are ready to cut in pieces any one who says the contrary. They throng about the captain, begging and praying him to commit the helm to them [–> kubernetes, steersman, from which both cybernetics and government come in English]; and if at any time they do not prevail, but others are preferred to them, they kill the others or throw them overboard [ = ruthless contest for domination of the community], and having first chained up the noble captain’s senses with drink or some narcotic drug [ = manipulation and befuddlement, cf. the parable of the cave], they mutiny and take possession of the ship and make free with the stores; thus, eating and drinking, they proceed on their voyage in such a manner as might be expected of them [–> Cf here Luke’s subtle case study in Ac 27]. Him who is their partisan and cleverly aids them in their plot for getting the ship out of the captain’s hands into their own whether by force or persuasion [–> Nihilistic will to power on the premise of might and manipulation making ‘right’ ‘truth’ ‘justice’ ‘rights’ etc], they compliment with the name of sailor, pilot, able seaman, and abuse the other sort of man, whom they call a good-for-nothing; but that the true pilot must pay attention to the year and seasons and sky and stars and winds, and whatever else belongs to his art, if he intends to be really qualified for the command of a ship, and that he must and will be the steerer, whether other people like or not-the possibility of this union of authority with the steerer’s art has never seriously entered into their thoughts or been made part of their calling. Now in vessels which are in a state of mutiny and by sailors who are mutineers, how will the true pilot be regarded? Will he not be called by them a prater, a star-gazer, a good-for-nothing? [Ad.] Of course, said Adeimantus. [Soc.] Then you will hardly need, I said, to hear the interpretation of the figure, which describes the true philosopher in his relation to the State [ --> here we see Plato's philosopher-king emerging]; for you understand already. [Ad.] Certainly. [Soc.] Then suppose you now take this parable to the gentleman who is surprised at finding that philosophers have no honour in their cities; explain it to him and try to convince him that their having honour would be far more extraordinary. [Ad.] I will. [Soc.] Say to him, that, in deeming the best votaries of philosophy to be useless to the rest of the world, he is right; but also tell him to attribute their uselessness to the fault of those who will not use them, and not to themselves. The pilot should not humbly beg the sailors to be commanded by him –that is not the order of nature; neither are ‘the wise to go to the doors of the rich’ –the ingenious author of this saying told a lie –but the truth is, that, when a man is ill, whether he be rich or poor, to the physician he must go, and he who wants to be governed, to him who is able to govern. [--> the issue of competence and character as qualifications to rule] The ruler who is good for anything ought not to beg his subjects to be ruled by him [ --> down this road lies the modern solution: a sound, well informed people will seek sound leaders, who will not need to manipulate or bribe or worse, and such a ruler will in turn be checked by the soundness of the people, cf. US DoI, 1776]; although the present governors of mankind are of a different stamp; they may be justly compared to the mutinous sailors, and the true helmsmen to those who are called by them good-for-nothings and star-gazers. [Ad.] Precisely so, he said. [Soc] For these reasons, and among men like these, philosophy, the noblest pursuit of all, is not likely to be much esteemed by those of the opposite faction [--> the sophists, the Demagogues, Alcibiades and co, etc]; not that the greatest and most lasting injury is done to her by her opponents, but by her own professing followers, the same of whom you suppose the accuser to say, that the greater number of them are arrant rogues, and the best are useless; in which opinion I agreed [--> even among the students of the sound state (here, political philosophy and likely history etc.), many are of unsound motivation and intent, so mere education is not enough, character transformation is critical]. [Ad.] Yes. [Soc.] And the reason why the good are useless has now been explained? [Ad.] True. [Soc.] Then shall we proceed to show that the corruption of the majority is also unavoidable [--> implies a need for a corruption-restraining minority providing proverbial salt and light, cf. Ac 27, as well as justifying a governing structure turning on separation of powers, checks and balances], and that this is not to be laid to the charge of philosophy any more than the other? [Ad.] By all means. [Soc.] And let us ask and answer in turn, first going back to the description of the gentle and noble nature.[ -- > note the character issue] Truth, as you will remember, was his leader, whom he followed always and in all things [ --> The spirit of truth as a marker]; failing in this, he was an impostor, and had no part or lot in true philosophy [--> the spirit of truth is a marker, for good or ill] . . . >>

(There is more than an echo of this in Acts 27, a real world case study. [Luke, a physician, was an educated Greek with a taste for subtle references.] This blog post, on soundness in policy, will also help)

Earlier, the Hebrew prophet Isaiah, seeing the corrupt Jerusalem elites of his day, denounced nihilism and its moral inversion:

Isa 5: 20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter! 21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes, and shrewd in their own sight! 22 Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine, and valiant men in mixing strong drink, 23 who acquit the guilty for a bribe, and deprive the innocent of his right! 24 Therefore, as the tongue of fire devours the stubble, and as dry grass sinks down in the flame, so their root will be as rottenness, and their blossom go up like dust; for they have rejected the law of the LORD of hosts, and have despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.

Of course, ever so many are disinclined to listen to, learn and heed such lessons of history. Indeed, that is precisely an effect of nihilism. kairosfocus

PPS, as a reminder, let us recall how -- ninety years ago now -- J B S Haldane clearly identified the incoherence of evolutionary materialistic scientism that leads to precisely the nihilism we are identifying. That is, we are seeing causal roots of the zeroing out of core knowledge wrapped up in a lab coat:

"It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For

if [p:] my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain [–> taking in DNA, epigenetics and matters of computer organisation, programming and dynamic-stochastic processes; notice, "my brain," i.e. self referential] ______________________________ [ THEN] [q:] I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. [--> indeed, blindly mechanical computation is not in itself a rational process, the only rationality is the canned rationality of the programmer, where survival-filtered lucky noise is not a credible programmer, note the functionally specific, highly complex organised information rich code and algorithms in D/RNA, i.e. language and goal directed stepwise process . . . an observationally validated adequate source for such is _____ ?] [Corollary 1:] They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence [Corollary 2:] I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. [--> grand, self-referential delusion, utterly absurd self-falsifying incoherence] [Implied, Corollary 3: Reason and rationality collapse in a grand delusion, including of course general, philosophical, logical, ontological and moral knowledge; reductio ad absurdum, a FAILED, and FALSE, intellectually futile and bankrupt, ruinously absurd system of thought.]

In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” ["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209. Cf. here on (and esp here) on the self-refutation by self-falsifying self referential incoherence and on linked amorality.]

kairosfocus

TR, at this point, you habitually twist what others say into strawmannish pretzels. The presence of the sort of gangs in question demonstrates the presence of nihilism on the streets, especially in urban areas. As for gang related shootings monitor Chicago, where many are routinely caught in crossfire or are targetted. Similarly, as a significant number of gang and drugs related shootings etc occur on or near school premises, the confused numbers we have seen come from that conflation. Meanwhile, we duly note that the issue that radicalisation and nihilism are key driving factors in these suicide attacks is still not cogently, substantially engaged. The further issue is the self evident, readily knowable, potentially transformative first duties of reason you and others studiously avoided above, in effect zeroing them out. It is the marginalisation of core moral knowledge which drives the ongoing disintegration of moral fibre, paving the way for a slide into lawless oligarchy. And as Provine publicly admitted, evolutionary materialistic scientism is an ideology that makes such marginalisation seem plausible, even though this ideology is multiply self refuting. KF PS, on the first duties of reason:

We may readily identify at least seven branch- on- which- we- all- sit (so, inescapable, pervasive), readily knowable first principle . . .

first duties of reason and first universally binding laws written into our rational, responsible nature and forming morally driven governing principles of reason, high and low alike:

"Inescapable," as they are so antecedent to and pervasive in our reasoning that even the objector implicitly appeals to their legitimate authority; inescapable, so first truths of reason, i.e. they are self-evidently true and binding. Namely, Ciceronian first duties,

1st - to truth, 2nd - to right reason, 3rd - to prudence [including warrant], 4th - to sound conscience, 5th - to neighbour; so also, 6th - to fairness and 7th - to justice [ . . .] xth - etc.

Likewise, we observe again, that the objector to such duties cannot but appeal to them to give their objections rhetorical traction (i.e. s/he must imply or acknowledge what we are, morally governed, duty-bound creatures to gain any persuasive effect). While also those who try to prove such cannot but appeal to the said principles too. So, these principles are a branch on which we all must sit, including objectors and those who imagine they are to be proved and try. That is, these are manifestly first principles of rational, responsible, honest, conscience guided liberty and so too a built-in framework of law; yes, core natural law of human nature. Reason, inescapably, is morally governed. Of course, there is a linked but not equivalent pattern: bounded, error-prone rationality often tied to ill will and stubbornness or even closed mindedness; that’s why the study of right reason has a sub-study on fallacies and errors. That we sometimes seek to evade duties or may make inadvertent errors does not overthrow such first duties of reason, which instead help us to detect and correct errors, as well as to expose our follies. Perhaps, a negative form will help to clarify, for cause we find to be at best hopelessly error-riddled, those who are habitually untruthful, fallacious and/or irrational, imprudent, fail to soundly warrant claims, show a benumbed or dead conscience [i.e. sociopathy and/or highly machiavellian tendencies], dehumanise and abuse others, are unfair and unjust. At worst, such are utterly dangerous, destructive,or even ruthlessly, demonically lawless. Such built-in . . . thus, universal . . . law, then, is not invented by parliaments, kings or courts, nor can these principles and duties be abolished by such; they are recognised, often implicitly as an indelible part of our evident nature. Hence, "natural law," coeval with our humanity, famously phrased in terms of "self-evident . . . rights . . . endowed by our Creator" in the US Declaration of Independence, 1776. (Cf. Cicero in De Legibus, c. 50 BC.) Indeed, it is on this framework that we can set out to soundly understand and duly balance rights, freedoms and duties; which is justice, the pivot of law. The legitimate main task of government, then, is to uphold and defend the civil peace of justice through sound community order reflecting the built in, intelligible law of our nature. Where, as my right implies your duty a true right is a binding moral claim to be respected in life, liberty, honestly aquired property, innocent reputation etc. To so justly claim a right, one must therefore demonstrably be in the right. Likewise, Aristotle long since anticipated Pilate's cynical "what is truth?": truth says of what is, that it is; and of what is not, that it is not. [Metaphysics, 1011b, C4 BC.] Simple in concept, but hard to establish on the ground; hence -- in key part -- the duties to right reason, prudence, fairness etc. Thus, too, we may compose sound civil law informed by that built-in law of our responsibly, rationally free morally governed nature; from such, we may identify what is unsound or false thus to be reformed or replaced even though enacted under the colour and solemn ceremonies of law. The first duties, also, are a framework for understanding and articulating the corpus of built-in law of our morally governed nature, antecedent to civil laws and manifest our roots in the Supreme Law-giver, the inherently good, utterly wise and just creator-God, the necessary (so, eternal), maximally great being at the root of reality.

kairosfocus

KF, you think other countries don't have gangs? And are you saying its gangs that are massacring children in schools in the US? Jerry, nothing you have said has been clear from the beginning. I think you are very confused. I think you want to say its Blacks and Hispanics that are the problem, but don't feel comfortable being that honest. And you have no idea crazy the notion that you need guns to protect yourselves from the government sounds to those of us in the rest of the world. You are living in a fantasy from a couple of centuries ago. Its that inability to let go of the past and live in the present that is the problem, I think. TimR

JH, I think TR pushed in what was not there. I give you the same, look up MS13, Cripps vs Bloods, Posses etc. KF kairosfocus

TR, depends on where the school is. But I have seen drug based warlordism. look up MS13 and Cripps vs Bloods, Posses etc. KF kairosfocus

you have spent all this time telling me its about ethnic diversity, and when I point out the US is not unique in its diversity, you now say its actually all about left governments and their oppression

You are confusing too very different things. The need for guns among the vast majority of owners is for protection against an oppressive government. Said many times on this thread. The origin of gun violence is not amongst law abiding gun owners. The majority of gun violence comes from poverty and I pointed out that the US is unlike every other western country. The closest country in ethnic make up to the US is Brazil. Two completely separate issues - reason to have guns is oppressive government; reason for gun violence is due to those in poverty. Those in poverty could care less about oppressive government but live in gang environments that exalt the use of guns. This has been clear since the beginning. Maybe you should refrain from commenting and just ask questions. jerry

KF: I've hung out in some pretty dodgy areas, yeah. But admittedly I haven't spent any time around schools. TimR

KF: TR, another toxic strawman. This one quite needlessly offensive and accusatory, by the subtler means, invited reading between lines.

Sorry, but TR’s conclusion is logical based on Jerry’s comment at 818. You may not like it, but blaming the disproportionately high gun violence on the racial demographic is a racially loaded statement. JHolo

PS, do you have any substantial, cogent reply to the point from research interviews and profiling, that mass murdering suicidal attacks are just that, suicide attacks carried out by the radicalised? Or to the inference that the behaviours involved are nihilistic, manifesting will to power, lawless destructive impulses and gross breakdown of respect for life etc? kairosfocus

TR, have you been where you can observe gangster and drug lord subcultures in action? Admittedly, once you know to look for the zeroing out, it becomes fairly easy to spot in the media, in classrooms and textbooks [esp. at College level], and in halls of power. As for effects of such nihilism in Europe, witness two world wars, the massive bloody revolutions, and holocaust, noting the treatment of our living posterity globally, snuffed out at 1 million per week. Certain aspects of the power elite response to pandemic are also quite revealing. And more, KF kairosfocus

SA: in all the times I've been in the US I've never noticed any nihilism in the streets, but yeah, if it exists, would be a good topic to study. Jerry, you have spent all this time telling me its about ethnic diversity, and when I point out the US is not unique in its diversity, you now say its actually all about left governments and their oppression. Which seems weird, because even your left governments would be on the right in our political spectrum and likewise in many European countries, but we don't feel this need to arm ourselves. But then I guess we are all just lambs naively heading to the slaughter. TimR

SA, it is a good subject to study given the influence of the following lab coat clad worldview:

Naturalistic evolution has clear consequences that Charles Darwin understood perfectly. 1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent

[==> key theses of nihilism. Citing the just linked IEP: "Nihilism is the belief that all values are baseless and that nothing can be known or communicated. It is often associated with extreme pessimism and a radical skepticism that condemns existence. A true nihilist would believe in nothing, have no loyalties, and no purpose other than, perhaps, an impulse to destroy. While few philosophers would claim to be nihilists, nihilism is most often associated with Friedrich Nietzsche who argued that its corrosive effects would eventually destroy all moral, religious, and metaphysical convictions and precipitate the greatest crisis in human history." As without rational, responsible freedom, rationality collapses, Provine implies self referential incoherence. Similarly, ethical foundations include our self evident, pervasive first duties of reason: to truth, right reason, warrant and wider prudence, fairness and justice etc. Provine has given a recipe for gross (and all too common) intellectual irresponsibility.]

. . . . The first 4 implications are so obvious to modern naturalistic evolutionists that I will spend little time defending them. Human free will, however, is another matter. Even evolutionists have trouble swallowing that implication. I will argue that humans are locally determined systems that make choices. They have, however, no free will [--> without responsible freedom, mind, reason and morality alike disintegrate into grand delusion, hence self-referential incoherence and self-refutation. But that does not make such fallacies any less effective in the hands of clever manipulators] . . . [1998 Darwin Day Keynote Address, U of Tenn -- and yes, that is significant i/l/o the Scopes Trial, 1925]

Notice, how the objectors don't substantially, cogently address it. In Europe, the damage was already done through two world wars, a massively destructive revolutionary ideology and a holocaust. Globally, holocaust of our living posterity continues. Meanwhile, objectors, again, refuse to substantially engage research findings on motivational factors for mass shooters etc. KF kairosfocus

TR

Why is the US subject to “violent lawless nihilism in the streets and in the halls of government”?

It's a good topic to study, especially considering the influence the US has on the world today. Silver Asiatic

Everyone should learn Asabiyya. Here is an analysis of what’s wrong with the US and the world. Is the only thing standing in the way of complete disintegration, guns in the hands of law abiding moral citizens? https://amgreatness.com/2022/06/05/the-sovietization-of-american-life/ But the most amazing question of all is why the people with the most money support the chaos? Do the think they have enough to survive the fall? Or do they think they are buying power in whatever is left? They are certainly all in on the disorder we see. Aside: from the 2nd Amendment - its objective

to the security of a free State

jerry

Americans need guns because of left governments who have a history of oppression wherever they are established. Originally they needed them because of dangers from external enemies and crime. Currently there is a massive effort to eliminate the police in many parts of the US and not prosecute crime. So self defense may become a major issue again. After the actions of the police in Uvalde it is evident that the police may not defend you. From what I understand people wanting to be policemen have declined. And the military has become very political at the upper levels. What will the world look like without US police forces to keep order here and a US military willing to fight for them? There are many issues but the main one is freedom. People in the US and other countries are literally fat dumb and happy and they don’t realize how it is they can be that way. There are deeper issues that are unlikely to be overcome as the world slowly disintegrates. We get confused by technological advances making life easier and better. But the human being has deteriorated dramatically and that is the real issue. Ibn Khaldun and asabiyya. jerry

TR, another toxic strawman. This one quite needlessly offensive and accusatory, by the subtler means, invited reading between lines. What part of, individual and collective self defense is a right and even a duty corollary to right to life, liberty and civil peace of justice [= due balance of rights, freedoms, duties] is so hard to understand and accept? Where, this starts with verbal self defence, petition for redress, accountability and transparency of government thence collective right of sound reform or replacement. Where, as relevant threats are armed and prone to force, starting with predators with tooth, claw and speed, self defence includes reasonable physical means, starting with our own built in bodily weapons that also make us potential predators. That means it's not just cave bears and sabre cats, it's us too. The tech involved moved beyond fists, legs and headbutting, when flint knapping, bows, clubs, knives etc came along and has accelerated ever since to steel. There is criminality, there is organised crime, there is corruption, there is potentially lawless government, including courts and police, legislatures and executives. Even at their best this is a case where when seconds count for life/death, police are minutes out and are prone to cordon and wait, here, with disastrous consequences. This includes not just gangsterism but the self radicalised of any ethnicity, class or location. Steel tech is now at semiauto pistols and compact rifles, in a race with the new era of armour. Where the militia principle applies duties and rights to all, individually, as family, locally, nationally. This patently includes schools and other soft targets prone to attack, thus target hardening as worked in Israel. In an age of nihilism and heinous crime, this becomes acute. KIF PS, Jerry is right that the US is highly diverse and federal, so one size fits all attempted solutions will likely fail. it is also the case that there are sub cultures and patterns of life that often primarily attach to urban, lower class minorities and which feed into and on the drugs gangsterism challenge. The high class institutionalised lab coat clad nihilism undermines families, churches, schools and other traditional means of sound shaping of attitudes, perceptions, beliefs, moral frameworks and habits that buttress due balance of rights freedoms and duties in a lawful state. In particular moral knowledge has been marginalised and the sense that law starts with built in first principles of truth, reason, duty to neighbour, justice, shaping government. This undermines the BATNA of lawfulness, reopening the historic tendency of government to be a lawless oligarchy. Reformation is urgently, desperately needed, with potentially disastrous geostrategic consequences lurking. kairosfocus

Ok, I thought we were comparing the relative diversity of countries. But I think what you are saying is that Americans need guns because of black and Hispanic people? TimR

I didn’t see any Maori or Pacificas in Brazil and only a small number of Pacificas in Hawaii and no Maori. Nor did I see any Africans and Hispanics in New Zealand (almost 100 million in US) So New Zealand is not like Brazil or the US. Closest country to US in terms of ethnic makeup appears to be Brazil. Asians are a growing minority in the US (about 18 million) and generally well educated and represent low crime rates. UK is 87% white and 7% Asian and nowhere close to US ethnic breakdown. The US has 18 million Asians while UK has 4.4 million, roughly similar percentages. As I said Asians are not a problem in US. jerry

Jerry @814: "It’s very simple, the ability to post comments on this site or any site is dependent on American private citizens owning guns." This is quite a staggering statement to make. What do you think would happen if American citizens stopped owning guns? On the topic of ethnic makeup - have you looked at the demographics of the countries you reference? Auckland, for example, is the biggest Pacifica city in the world (by population of ethnic pacific islanders) and 25% of the population are from 7 or 8 different Asian countries. And obviously we have a large minority of indigenous Maori, with 2 official languages etc. The majority are white Europeans (as in the US) from pretty much every European country. And as JVL said, have you been to Bradford or Leeds lately? TimR

Kf, I’m currently not interested in debating any of this. Freedom happened. And it happened by chance and is not stable except by fighting for it. This is my point of view. Freedom for the common man in England was building since the death of Henry VIII. Because of religious wars there was at least two competing Protestant religions in England which reduced the power of both the monarchy and Parliament. This allowed freedom to drift down the hierarchy. It started to accelerate after the death of Charles I as Cromwell’s soldiers were common people and wanted more. Economic changes started soon thereafter and in the 1700’s saw the tremendous increases in innovation specifically steam engines and textile manufacturing. Meanwhile in America, Pennsylvania imported thousands of Germans in the late 1600s and the freedom of these poor farmers had a lasting impact and influenced many of the other colonies. Pennsylvania became the land where the poor could advance since there was no hierarchy. Philadelphia became one of leading cities in the world. Little economic innovation happened in Holland outside of shipbuilding and land reclamation. This led to Holland’s prosperity but not to anyone but themselves. England’s ideas were transportable. Neither the other Protestant or Catholic areas of Europe advanced much till they saw what was happening in England and the United States. The industrial Revolution was essentially a British and American thing with America driving more and more of the innovation after the 1850’s. But freedom was an early American thing. All this was a one time event that didn’t have to happen and if it disappeared may not appear again for a long while. People live in their gold fish bowls not knowing how their bowl was created or what prevents if from breaking. Aside: why is all the big money in the world supporting chaos? That’s the question few address? jerry

Jerry, pretty much agreed. I could quibble that the Dutch post 1581 were a bit of an earlier outbreak and that the US DoI seems to be indirectly and directly influenced by the 1581 declaration against Philip II. BTW, Philip II ironically is the co-father of the modern Royal Navy. The point is, the natural state of government is oligarchy and that strongly tends to lawless oligarchy. The American Revolution built on the Great Revolution of 1688, and opened up new political space, constitutional, lawful, representative democratic government which brought freedom. And a concerted push for firearms confiscation [did they remember there were hostiles aplenty about?] was a key spark of the uprising. So, Americans who directly or indirectly inherit that legacy will be very sensitive to firearms confiscation pushes especially given the context. My stake in this is of course that I am very aware that the USN depends on the heartlanders who are also the bulk of law abiding firearms owners. Where, the USN guards the global trade routes and is chief bulwark of freedom. How do you think expeditionary forces, air forces etc move and are supported logistically in the main? Where freedom of seas is a base for global trade. The predictable geostrategic consequences of needless chaos in the US leading to paralysis, are sobering. And, the radicals will lose the civil war, whether it remains at 4th gen low intensity level or flares up into full balkanisation. That is why we can infer irresponsibility when we see posturing to polarise and win elections, pushing, pushing, pushing the heartlanders. At some point a nonlinear result is very possible and prudence should replace the current nihilistic ruthlessness. KF kairosfocus

Jerry: What happened a couple hundred years ago? Freedom broke out for the first time in history to some degree in England and then to a much larger degree in the English colonies in North America. Then the United States was formed and freedom started to spread but only in restricted areas. Okay . . . First of all if you're talking about something that happened before the founding of the United States of America (late 1700s) then we are talking about 250 years ago or more. So what happened in England in the 1700s . . .Magna Carta was 1205. King Charles I was deposed in 1649 (or so). The 'glorious revolution' was 1688 if memory serves. Not much changed after that government-wise. The crowns of England and Scotland had been unified with James I (James VI) of Scotland. The governments were united in the early 1700s but I wouldn't call that freedom breaking out. The peasants revolt was quite a bit earlier than all that. Just curious but . . . what event or events are you referring to? The United States is more like Brazil in terms of ethnic make up than any country of Europe, You do realise that the UK alone contains living people descendent from Picts and lots of other pre-Roman tribes, Romans, Anglo-Saxons, Vikings (Denmark, Norway, etc), Normans, French, Caribbean, African, Indian and a lot of the rest of Europe. It's not rare at all to hear lots of different languages spoken in any major city. Plus there are mosques and temples and churches all over the place. You should go to London or Leeds sometime. The second is freedom, the ability to do what one wants within reason. You mean like same-sex couples being allowed to marry? Or a person going through gender reassignment surgery? At least mixed race marriages are now allowed eh? And women can vote and run in marathons thankfully. JVL

It's very simple, the ability to post comments on this site or any site is dependent on American private citizens owning guns. Essentially freedom to do what normally we feel free to do is the issue, something that didn't exist till a couple hundred years ago anywhere in the world and still doesn't in a large part of the world. That is the proposition. Deny it or agree with it is the basic issue. What happened a couple hundred years ago? Freedom broke out for the first time in history to some degree in England and then to a much larger degree in the English colonies in North America. Then the United States was formed and freedom started to spread but only in restricted areas. Tremendous economic expansion accompanied this freedom. So freedom was seen as the source of prosperity. Because of the economic benefits, freedom then spread to some other areas, mainly Western Europe. After World War II it spread to a large part of the world. That expansion is now contracting and the only viable force between the suppression of freedom totally that existed for most of history is the United States. And in the United States freedom is under assault. That's it in simple terms. Aside: The United States is more like Brazil in terms of ethnic make up than any country of Europe, Canada, Australia and New Zealand all of whom owe their independence first to England and then to the US. Aside2: there are two main human desires that are driving what is happening. One is power, the desire to rule others and determine what they can and cannot do. The second is freedom, the ability to do what one wants within reason. These two human desires are what are at odds with each other in the world and in the United States. The current discussion is on guns but that is only the discussion of the current moment as said earlier on this thread. Each meme is used to impose oppression on people through fear in the name of a better society but in reality it is the desire for power vs the desire for freedom that is at play. And as I have said many times, the useful idiots will support those who want power to eventually realize they are expendable as soon as that happens. Aside3: I used the example of San Diego as an area that is completely different from any other Western country and is prosperous to show that there is no fear currently from supposedly a gun epidemic. Some how the image of the US outside of the US is completely at odds with the reality of life in it. jerry

JH, lying again, the corrective of a manipulative term of course has not been acknowledged; nor has straight thinking been acknowledged as a basis for sound analysis. here, assault weapons is an arbitrary, ill defined manipulative hidden agenda riddled term, there is a term that is objective and it immediately excludes what so many want to ban as assault weapons or weapons of war etc. The correct term, assault rifle, with the MP/StG44 as key case, also locks out ever expanding agendas of state surveillance, control and attack on the law abiding. Where, recall, two years ago many of the same were pushing the slogan abolish the police, I do not recall a lot of support from objectors when I said this is anti civilisational and misanthropic. Yes, we have not forgotten. We are taking notes on the dishonest argument tactics used by objectors. Here you just fulfilled step three of the trifecta, red herring distractor, led to a strawman soaked in ad homs then set alight to cloud, confuse, poison and polarise the atmosphere for serious discussion. That tells us a lot about hostility and want of a sound case on the part of those resorting to such rhetorical tactics. This cluster of fallacies and slanders, I have noticed for something like fifteen years. All of this tells us that you have no cogent answer on merits to target hardening with Israel as demonstration of effectiveness. Wider use suggests that you have no really cogent answer on the design inference either. KF kairosfocus

TimR: I have no idea what any of that has to do with the question of why mass shootings are a common occurrence in America and why the idea of arming teachers doesn’t seem crazy to many of its citizens. And please don’t mention Israel. I have already corrected you on that one..

It obviously has more to do with espousing personal agendas than it does with mass shootings. JHolo

PPS, I should tell a story. Early in the volcano crisis here, there was a cold ash flow event during a school day. Sadly, many teachers panicked and fled, finding themselves caught in a traffic jam so flight did not work. [In the day, hot ash clouds cannot be told from cold ones, and they readily travel at 60 mph, so in 2 - 3 minutes they can overwhelm a town as happened in Martinique in 1902 and also in St Vincent a week earlier.] The distraught pupils were left in the hands of some teachers who showed courage. What message do you think was sent to the pupils and their families? kairosfocus

TR, you know or should know that target hardening has worked in Israel; sadly, you want to exclude the example that makes the point, where lives are at stake. You know or should know that mass attacks are a global phenomenon as is violent crime. You know or should know that on a per capita basis the US does not stand out on either. You know or should know that the incidence of school mass attacks has been grossly distorted by reports that conflate different phenomena. You know or should know that there are many communities and areas in the US with high ownership of firearms and low incidence of violent crime. You know or should know that per annum 500,000 or more times private citizens with firearms stop or prevent crimes, most of the time by simply revealing that they are armed. Further to which, the US population is comparable to a large swath of Europe. All of this has been drawn out above and in the onward linked. KF PS, I responded to a particular distortion, the term assault weapons, which is arbitrary and manipulative. Are you now willing to acknowledge that assault rifle has a specific objective meaning and context and that this does not extend to semiautomatic weapons? That is important in making a sound analysis. kairosfocus

KF, what JHolo said at 806. I have no idea what any of that has to do with the question of why mass shootings are a common occurrence in America and why the idea of arming teachers doesn't seem crazy to many of its citizens. And please don't mention Israel. I have already corrected you on that one. TimR

PS, see how you deceptively twisted a geostrategic discussion to knock over a strawman? That shows that you are not acting in good faith. Perhaps it has not dawned on you that China has agendas far beyond peaceful trade. There is nothing blocking merchantmen were its intentions peaceful and ever since the post WW1 settlements, the will of a relevant existing population and relevant stakeholders has become a more peaceful way to settle disputes. The Taiwanese obviously wish to go their separate way; this goes beyond the former claim to be the legitimate government of China, retreated into a single province that had been lately restored after defeat of Japan. But, seizure of Taiwan, an intent openly declared and being currently backed by bullying military demonstrations is enormously destabilising. As c 1941, crippling US naval influence is material and I spoke to internal chaos and paralysing will to defend Pacific allies. With that sort of issue on the table, a chain of going nuke in self defence is all but inevitable because the US nuclear umbrella will be seen as ineffective. I hardly need to stress how further destabilising that would be. The issue is, irresponsible power factions liable to trigger chaos in the US, and which are already implicated in democide of dozens of millions. kairosfocus

JH, stacked strawmen. You insist despite repeated correction on a made up manipulative term reflective of agendas by a state whose dominant factions have backed democide of 63 million. Second, allowed implies unlimited state power, the state grants licences, it must recognise and defend rights as part of due balance of rights, freedoms and duties. Third you put a purchasing agenda in my mouth that does not belong there [which is -- again -- inherently deceitful]. Go back to 30 above which you obviously have not taken seriously and kindly do not put in my mouth what does not belong there. What part of civilian marshals, tied to organisations and publicly accountable through elected shire reffs is about irresponsible, lawless or undisciplined, untrained conduct? What part of, abuse of weapons or potential weapons under the militia principle is liable to court martial is about lawlessness? What I have warned is that a state with a 63 million victim democide track record, a pattern of usurpations etc is losing legitimacy, and that a further move that sends the message of intent of hopeless subjugation is liable to trigger a nonlinear response, comparable to April 19, 1775. With likely devastating geostrategic consequences. Meanwhile, on the actual focal topic, Israel is a strong demonstration that target hardening works and so those who seem determined to block that common sense move, show themselves to be further suspect of hidden agendas that cannot see the light of day. In context, too, there is evidence of a profile that shows mass murderers to be carrying out extended suicides driven by a range of influences including trauma, blame projection and nihilistic targetting. Nihilism is also evident in the policy and public space as a major force driven by evolutionary materialism as attested by Provine and others. These need to be tackled, including that our civilisation needs to deal with exposing and correcting nihilistic views. That starts with pervasive, self evident first principle level first duties and built in laws of right reason. Something objectors have studiously avoided and side stepped. Which is telling on their own agendas given a 2400 year track record on where that leads. KF kairosfocus

KF, so, if I understand you correctly, if American citizens are not allowed to purchase and carry assault weapons and other firearms without background checks and waiting periods, Taiwan will fall to China, and Australia, South Korea and Japan will go nuclear. Forgive me if I suggest that you are off the rails. JHolo

TR, I took time already to explain why the term you just used is effectively meaningless. There is an objective meaning to Sturm Gewehr, translated Assault Rifle, but that is exactly what semiauto only intermediate cartridge rifles are not. The use of the made up assault weapons and the arbitrary definitions themselves are reflective of a hidden, usurpation based agenda. Given the already present track record, the risk of a nonlinear event such as parallels April 19, 1775 is high. I suspect a lot of people have been desensitised to the issue of rights, and mass killing of our living posterity is at the pivot of that; where threats of Supreme Court packing to get their way are a clear indication of will to power intent. As to the US disappearing, that is a hypothetical but it is a possibility. Where, who else is willing and trusted to guard ocean trade routes, hosting an effective 12 or so capital carrier navy with a significant submarime fleet? For the obvious Chinese blue ocean breakout strategy -- cf Germany vs Britain in two world wars -- to work, all that is needed is internal chaos and external paralysis. Once they have taken Taiwan, the Pacific will become a hot conflict zone. There will be a knock-on impact on the global microelectronics technology market due to destruction of the fabs in Taiwan. My prediction is, Japan, S Korea, Taiwan [if it survives long enough], Australia and possibly Singapore will go Nuclear, India is already nuclear. Such a swath of nuclear confrontation will be extremely unstable. KF kairosfocus

Jerry: GDP of San Diego according to google - $206 billion. GDP of NZ - $212 billion. But so what? Actually, its unclear what anything you said there had to do with the issue. Do you think if the average American had to give up his assault weapons, the Chinese would invade or something? And why are you talking about the US disappearing as a force? The issue under discussion is individual gun ownership. TimR

I don’t understand. I don’t speak mandarin. What’s that got to do with anything?

Everything. A clueless statement. It’s obvious you understand little. I literally just traveled from one end of the US to the other and back. (New Hampshire to San Diego) There is no awareness or sign of what you describe. In New Hampshire nearly all are of European extraction. In San Diego which has an economy much bigger than New Zealand the people were about a third European extraction. There was wide mixing and in the area of San Diego I was in, wide celebrating. By the way there were a few homeless and a couple harassed others but were ignored. The homeless were nearly all European ethnicity. You haven’t a clue what you are talking about but fortunately for the oblivious there are those with the guns as well as those who support them. Others in the world may say they don’t care but if the US disappears as a force, they will be gone in months as the hordes will appear as sure as the sun will rise tomorrow. jerry

F/N: Another potential triggering factor: https://americasbestpics.com/picture/i-own-a-small-trucking-company-and-this-is-what-Bs7i7Rmb9

I own a small trucking company, and this is what the fuel crisis is doing to our country... Today I filled up my truck to deliver products that help keep our country fed. When I filled up my truck, it cost me $1,149.50. This is ONE truck, for ONE day of fuel. I own three. So for one day of operation, it's costing me $3,448.50. (Yes, we use a full tank of fuel every single day, sometimes more than 1 tank per day) My trucks generally run 5-6 days a week, so we'll just estimate on the low side and say 5. That's $17,242.50. Last week was over for ONE week, that I have to pay out of my pocket to try and keep not only my children fed, but those of my employees, and our country. Mark my words, we are on a downhill slide to the worst recession our country has ever seen. Trucking companies are going under left and right. (Literally hundreds weekly) If you're not aware, what you're wearing, what you're eating, what you're living in, what you're driving, what you're reading this on, was delivered by a truck. If something drastic doesn't change in the next few months, I promise you, you'll see empty shelves everywhere you look. You'll see chaos as people fight for the basic necessities of everyday life. Food, medicine, etc... I pray that all of you have the ability, knowledge, and skills to fend for yourselves. Not only against those who would do you or your family harm, but to be able to find sustainable food and water.

KF kairosfocus

TR, at first level, Wm B Provine answered, which answers as to the halls of power and influence:

Naturalistic evolution has clear consequences that Charles Darwin understood perfectly. 1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent

[==> key theses of nihilism. Citing the just linked IEP: "Nihilism is the belief that all values are baseless and that nothing can be known or communicated. It is often associated with extreme pessimism and a radical skepticism that condemns existence. A true nihilist would believe in nothing, have no loyalties, and no purpose other than, perhaps, an impulse to destroy. While few philosophers would claim to be nihilists, nihilism is most often associated with Friedrich Nietzsche who argued that its corrosive effects would eventually destroy all moral, religious, and metaphysical convictions and precipitate the greatest crisis in human history." As without rational, responsible freedom, rationality collapses, Provine implies self referential incoherence. Similarly, ethical foundations include our self evident, pervasive first duties of reason: to truth, right reason, warrant and wider prudence, fairness and justice etc. Provine has given a recipe for gross (and all too common) intellectual irresponsibility.]

. . . . The first 4 implications are so obvious to modern naturalistic evolutionists that I will spend little time defending them. Human free will, however, is another matter. Even evolutionists have trouble swallowing that implication. I will argue that humans are locally determined systems that make choices. They have, however, no free will [--> without responsible freedom, mind, reason and morality alike disintegrate into grand delusion, hence self-referential incoherence and self-refutation. But that does not make such fallacies any less effective in the hands of clever manipulators] . . . [1998 Darwin Day Keynote Address, U of Tenn -- and yes, that is significant i/l/o the Scopes Trial, 1925]

Nor is this unique to the USA. It was responsible for two world wars and the cold war, with associated slaughters. KF PS, criminality, at low levels, is a global pattern of ages long roots as we see from Otzi. It requires policing backed up by strong cultural buttresses. PPS, If you imply Australia or NZ, why do you think the battles of Coral Sea, Midway, New Guinea Campaign and Guadalcanal/Solomon Islands campaign were fought? If you suggest India, India was actually invaded by Japan. And today, it is the USN that guards the trade routes of the world and stabilises the rimland space around Eurasia. A capital case in point was 1962 when China threatened a serious defeat of India. A US Carrier group provided backing that gave China second thoughts. kairosfocus

KF, that's my question. Why is the US subject to "violent lawless nihilism in the streets and in the halls of government"? What has gone wrong in the culture to create this situation? And, no thanks, I don't rely on, or need the US navy to defend my country. We have done our hit in multiple wars around the world, without ever facing any direct threat ourselves . TimR

TR, has it dawned on you that it is because of the strength of commitment to freedom and its defence provided by those bizarre colonialists and their descendants, that other western states are able to ride the coat tails of liberty? Have you contemplated the geostrategic consequences of a nonlinear April 19 1775 event in the US such that the heartlanders, the population that both is the bulk of 100 million lawful firearms owners and the source of committed manpower for esp the US Navy, Air Force, Army and Marine Corps, were to withdraw consent to government they conclude having imposed mass killing of 63 million under false colour of law, now proceeds to disarm in order to utterly subjugate the heartlanders they perceive as a threat, through hegelian-marxian dialectic crisis tactics? Pray, tell us, what they would be, why. KF PS, the underlying issue is, is there a manifest right to and/or duty of effective self defence and defence of the local community from enemies foreign and domestic; in an era of violent lawless nihilism in the street and the halls of government. The US Framers and early modern thinkers traditionally pointed to means of flight or fight built into the bodies of animals and even some plants. Humans are not particularly fast or fearsomely armed but have intelligence and manual dexterity. As Otzi showed, flint knapping, metal making and wood working provided tools, weapons and means of protective mobility as part of our earliest technology in defence of human thriving. Unfortunately for him, he seems to have been ambushed and shot in the back with an arrow. Self defence with effective means provides for thriving of the protected community, its families and individuals. Where, principal-agent theory clearly teaches us a lesson backed by Machiavelli and the collapse of the W Roman Empire alike. Hired protection with monopoly on the means of force soon has its own interests and agendas such that it is likely to manipulate or seize power in pursuit of its own agendas, a known threat to the civil peace of justice. This is part of why the US framers, who had just liberated themselves through having people and communities that were locally and personally armed [minutemen, April 19, 1775], in appending a demanded explicit bill of rights, recognised principles of reasonable armament for local and individual defence, a check and balance to abuses and usurpations. This is, again, implied in the DoI, 1776. Police, national armed forces, courts, elections can all fail or become corrupted, knowing that states and communities can withdraw consent and defend it is a salutary check to and balance of the tendency of agents to compromise the interests of their principals. This implies access of individuals and families to infantry weapons. [Until v recently, in Switzerland one kept a full auto capable battle rifle and ammunition with uniform so one could defend locally and/or fight through to mobilisation centre]. It implies that communities should have local effective control of heavier weapons. It implies the unorganised militia principle in the above, with room for individual conscientious dissent, every able bodied person of relevant age and sound mind is automatically a member of the militia and is liable for conscription. At Chernobyl in 1986, men were taken off the streets and put into the fight with the meltdown, on this self same principle. In that context given limited utility of automatic weapons, semiauto intermediate cartridge arms are reasonable, and reasonable regulations to address criminality are reasonable. In 30 above, I used the militia principle to suggest that abusers of weapons or potential weapons to include vehicles, fertiliser, cooking gas bottles, kitchen knives, utility knives etc, are liable to court martial with full powers. Trial in civil court is a privilege of courtesy for such matters of violation of lawful use of militia equipment. Reasonable armament clearly includes 9 mm semiauto pistols and AR15 or similar semiauto rifles with standard magazines. The sly disarmament by backdoor subterfuges in current exploit the crisis pushes speak to abuses and usurpations. Likewise the refusal to headline and emphasise the case of a car mowing down at a Christmas parade in Wisconsin also speaks. If you think it is bizarre and backward for 100 million Americans to take seriously their self defence, that is suggestive. Especially for someone likely benefitting from the umbrella of the USN and the marines and army they would convey. That holds for Europe, it holds for the ME, it holds for the island chain off China, it holds for Oceania, it holds for the Indian subcontinent and S Asia, it holds for the Americas. 100+ years ago, that was the RN, but now Britain has retired. Who else would back a carrier fleet of about a dozen top level ships, with more of second rank? Without the consent of the US heartlanders, that shield would fail. And don't suggest NATO or the UN, they already show how they disqualify themselves. Geostrategic vultures are the threat not the defence. Ponder the consequences. kairosfocus

Jerry: sorry, I don't understand. I don't speak mandarin. What's that got to do with anything? TimR

Jerry: How’s your Mandarin?

Zhè shì y?ush? y?lái zuì yúch?n de pínglùn. JHolo

the rest of the world doesn’t see it in the way you fondly imagine

How’s your Mandarin? jerry

Jerry: Yeah, guns were part of all colonies back then. Everyone else just moved on. Not sure if you have lived out of the US for a while, but the rest of the world doesn't see it in the way you fondly imagine. TimR

America’s bizarre fixation with guns

Guns were part of America from the beginning of the colonies. And then during and after the Revolution. It was a dangerous place. It then became part of the enforcement of the law where it was being violated and the government would not enforce it. Somehow this system produced the most powerful and prosperous society in history. A society which is attractive to most of the world. But we get criticism from the parasites who would not exist if it wasn’t for the US. jerry

KF: in response to my questions about what is behind America's bizarre fixation with guns, all you do is keep mentioning Israel (and no, I am not anti-Semitic - what a weird thing to say). Israel, as I have said, is surrounded by hostile countries filled with people who want to exterminate it. It is in the middle-east, a profoundly difficult and unstable region of the world. Its territorial limits include disputed territory won in recent wars. It has a large indigenous minority who are treated as second class citizens, and who believe they have been deprived of their rightful ancestral lands. It has terrorist organisations running some of the disputed territories, who are intent on wiping it from the face of the world. It is riven by its own sectarian divisions, including a significant minority - the ultra orthodox jews, who oppose even the existence of their own country and certainly the existence of arabs in it. It borders Lebanon, a country that for much of its recent history has been in state of chaotic civil war, ruled by terrorist groups and militia's sponsored by various regional states. It borders Syria, one of the most dangerous and extreme states in the world run by the one of the worst dictators around, and again, subject to years of civil war. Israel in its recent history, has had to endure missiles being lobbed into it from 3 different countries. Frankly, I am amazed that you see this is a poster child for America. I just have to assume you are not serious I am afraid. TimR

JH, at this point, you are in crooked yardstick thinking. It is DEMONSTRATED that target hardening works, Israel is living proof. If you think we can wave a magic wand and make the nihilistic criminality disappear, so that it does not matter whether or not people can effectively defend themselves, all I can say is that there is no such magic and that people have cause to distrust governments with the guilt of 63 million victims on their hands. As a clue, that government and its media allies continue to grossly distort even the incidence of mass shootings. Details ae alreaady in thread, you just choose to ignore, itself a sign. KF kairosfocus

https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/United-Kingdom/United-States/Crime Hmm Fred Hickson

KF: JH, nope, that the nihilist attacks in Israel are motivated one way and those in the us mostly another does not change the deterring and defending impact of target hardening.

You are correct. But Israel does it because they have no option. It is either give the country back or fight for it. The US is doing it because they refuse to do the one thing that is known to reduce gun violence.

The US faces a criminality problem that drives much of its violence

As LCD pointed out, the crime rates in the US and the UK are almost the same. That does not explain the disproportionate rates of gun violence in the US. The easy access to guns does.

In terms of school and other mass shootings, it is actually fairly low on a population basis but you have already ignored that.

But highest by far of any western nation, but you have already ignored that. JHolo

@ET:

I saw a movie in which only the police and military had guns. The movie was “Schindler’s List”.

And then we have USA, ruled for decades by Christianists, where common folks have lots of guns. And USA is committing a horrendous holocaust of innocents with millions of babies slaughtered. Pretty obvious to me, that guns alone don't solve the problem. You actually need people, who are not cowards and are ready to stand up for truth. AndyClue

PS: William Jennings Bryan, c 1920, on the menace of darwinism:

Darwinism leads to a denial of God. Nietzsche carried Darwinism to its logical conclusion and it made him the most extreme of anti-Christians . . . . As the [[First World] war [[of 1914 - 1918] progressed I [[Bryan was from 1913 - 1915 the 41st US Secretary of State, under President Wilson] became more and more impressed with the conviction that the German propa-ganda rested upon a materialistic foundation. I se-cured the writings of Nietzsche and found in them a defense, made in advance, of all the cruelties and atrocities practiced by the militarists of Germany. [[It didn't start with the Nazis!] Nietzsche tried to substitute the worship of the "Su-perman" for the worship of God. He not only re-jected the Creator, but he rejected all moral standards. He praised war and eulogized hatred because it led to war. He denounced sympathy and pity as attributes unworthy of man. He believed that the teachings of Christ made degenerates and, logical to the end, he regarded Democracy as the refuge of weaklings. He saw in man nothing but an animal and in that animal the highest virtue he recognized was "The Will to Power"—a will which should know no let or hin-drance, no restraint or limitation . . . . His philosophy, if it is worthy the name of philos-ophy, is the ripened fruit of Darwinism — and a tree is known by its fruit . . . . The corroding influence of Darwinism has spread as the doctrine has been increasingly accepted. In the American preface to "The Glass of Fashion" these words are to be found: "Darwinism not only justifies the sensualist at the trough and Fashion at her glass; it justifies Prussianism at the cannon's mouth and Bol-shevism at the prison-door. If Darwinism be true, if Mind is to be driven out of the universe and accident accepted as a sufficient cause for all the majesty and glory of physical nature, then there is no crime or vio-lence, however abominable in its circumstances and however cruel in its execution, which cannot be justi-fied by success, and no triviality, no absurdity of Fash-ion which deserves a censure: more — there is no act of disinterested love and tenderness, no deed of self- sac-rifice and mercy, no aspiration after beauty and excel-lence, for which a single reason can be adduced in logic." [[pp. 52 - 54. Emphases and explanatory parentheses added.]

For further context, ponder the Loeb-Leopold nihilism murder trial. https://www.britannica.com/biography/Leopold-and-Loeb kairosfocus

JH, nope, that the nihilist attacks in Israel are motivated one way and those in the us mostly another does not change the deterring and defending impact of target hardening. What is different is Israel realised they faced an existential problem. Where, the nihilism is not rooted in policies but in worldviews taken as representing reality and given prestige. The policies are secondary to that. And the biggest nihilistic behaviour, mass killing of living posterity is pretty much everywhere. The US faces a criminality problem that drives much of its violence. In terms of school and other mass shootings, it is actually fairly low on a population basis but you have already ignored that. Where the big working out in Europe and Asia was two world wars and the communist revolutions, coming on towards 200 million dead in less than 100 years, and it was the US that saved the day esp for WW2 and the cold war. Germany learned a hard lesson and Putin notwithstanding, Russia too. Part of the US problem is imagining such things could not happen there. KF kairosfocus

Speaking of gay rights and abortion, look at Ireland. Fred Hickson

Except for some religious fundamentalists and some pockets of deep resentment (like Northern Ireland) most Europeans have tried to leave the use of violence as a political tool behind which, considering that it was less than a century ago they we[re] slaughtering each other in the millions, is quite an achievement.

I'd dispute this. The Troubles are over and are never coming back. I have friends on both sides of the sectarian divide. (One friend lost his son, shot dead by an unknown assailant, and still has no idea who or why). None of my Irish friends want or expect the Troubles to return and do expect an eventual United (and peacefully gun-free) Ireland. Fred Hickson

KF, that you can’t see that the issues in Israel are completely different than those in the US speaks volumes, and not in your favour. Speaking further volumes is you claim that all of the data supporting the efficacy of reasonable gun control is irrelevant because there are some exceptions. Further, you latch onto the Israel issue as relevant even though the type and motivations for the violence in Israel are completely different than that in the US. And rounding out the trifecta of speaking volumes, and not in your favour, is your complete dismissal of the evidence from Western Europe, Scandinavia, Australia and New Zealand. Countries where most of your feared “nihilistic” amoral policies such as abortion, gay rights, same sex marriage, transgendered rights, secularism, gun control laws, universal health care, acceptance of evolution, etc are far more developed than they are in the US. The same nihilistic, amoral policies which you claim is at the root of the gun violence in the US. And yet, their level of gun violence is dwarfed by that in the US. JHolo

JH, irrelevant. The primary issue is target hardening, and Israel shows the way. With the US, it is not uniformly the case that relatively light state level regulation [there is federal too] correlates with high gun using violent crime rates in general. That seems to primarily but obviously not solely focus on troubled urban areas, Chicago in the lead. When it comes to specifically mass shootings targetting schools, there is first a gross misrepresentation in the way the incidence is reported. That already discredits many sources and their talk points. Onward, I have cited relevant research and it shows a pattern that is tied to nihilism, that is significant as something is driving lawlessness. Many years ago I contrasted Jamaica in my father's childhood with the same in my day, and with Haiti. Something comes into a society and erodes its moral government, at least at subculture level. Similarly, I have thought, gangsterism, political radicalism, terrorist movements and intelligence agencies are commonly associated with radicalism. Finally, 764 responds to a specific revealing terminology issue: assault weapon is essentially meaningless and manipulative; sturm gewehr has a specific meaning reflecting the MP/StG 44 and technological descendants. The fact that those who would make laws are being manipulative and deceitful is a giant red flag. Especially when the same have for 49 years backed under colour of law, rights and freedom, the democide of 63 million at an average rate of 25000 per week. These are some of the reasons I point to the possibility of a nonlinear response of the order of April 19, 1775. KF kairosfocus

I might also add that repeatedly comparing the US attacks to Israeli attacks is comparing apples and Jack Fruit. Israel's violences largely is religious and territorial in nature. Not unexpected when the world forces a religion based regime in the midst of a populated area dominated by a different religion, and giving the new government full authority over the region. The vast majority of attacks in the US, however, are not religiously or territorially based. They are the result of sick people, radicalized by your conspiracy theory of the month, with easy access to weapons, often automatic or semi-automatic assault weapons. Unfortunately, you are correct in that the US has little option now but to harden soft targets. But that is just a bandaid, it is not the solution. Any solution must involve reasonable national gun control legislation that includes some limits on the types of weapons and magazine size, background checks and waiting periods. My comment at 753 clearly shows that gun control is part of a tried and tested solution. JHolo

KF, I have read your comment at 764 and fail to see how this addresses, in any way, my comment at 753. Let's rehash. I identified the five states with the highest rates of gun deaths and compared their gun regulations against the five states with the lowest rate of gun deaths. Feel free to address this fact if you would like. But going on a rant about nobody knowing what an assault weapon is is just a straman red herrings. What surprised my was the fact that New York and New Jersey had amongst the lowest rate of gun deaths. This appears to be the complete opposite of what some here have stated. It's almost as if they were pulling "facts" out of their nether regions to support their argument. JHolo

Using firearms to successfully defend against crime, home intrusions or threat of harm is a common occurrence in the USA, credible estimates from several studies ranging from 500,000 to 3 million times a year. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeTG7MimfX0 William J Murray

JVL Yes there are knife crimes in the UK, quite a few between young people who want to settle a grunge or think they’re going to solve a problem. And some gun crimes. I never denied it. But they are much rarer than in the US.

UK crime index:46 US crime index :47. US is 56th place in the world at crime index ~ same like UK that don't have guns So is not about types of weapons it's about human corruption. Looks like UK people that have no guns keeps the crime index the same like in US . https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/crime-rate-by-country Lieutenant Commander Data

In the USA, doctors can arm themselves. Teachers can arm themselves. Both can get permits to carry their guns. ET

JVL, sadly, there are many mass fatality knife attacks; knives are more than adequately lethal. I see no good reason why staff of a hospital should not be prepared for attacks like this. Ask the Israelis. Then ask what is radicalising people. KF PS, here is a news report on one of the worst: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/33-dead-130-injured-china-knife-wielding-spree-n41966

March 1, 2014, 1:22 PM -04 / Updated March 1, 2014, 11:46 PM -04 A group of knife-wielding men attacked a train station in southwestern China on Saturday, killing at least 29 people and injuring more than 130 others in what Chinese officials called a terrorist strike, the official Xinhua News Agency said. Four of the attackers were also shot dead and only one was captured alive after the mayhem, which broke out about 9 p.m. (8 a.m. ET) at the Kunming Railway Station in the capital of southwest China's Yunnan Province.

The danger space around a knife wielder is over 20 feet in radius. PPS, in case you need it, most people suffering pain or rejection etc don't resort to mass murder. As the researchers pointed out, something radicalises and that something is invariably nihilistic. kairosfocus

JVL, ust to round out, did you take due note of this attack, also discussed above (which also has direct parallels in Europe and in Israel); https://www.nationalreview.com/news/vehicles-smashes-into-wisconsin-christmas-parade-crowd-killing-five-wounding-dozens/

A vehicle smashed into a crowd of people attending a Christmas parade in Wisconsin early Sunday evening, killing five and wounding over 40 people. The horrific incident happened shortly after 4:40 p.m. local time in Waukesha, Wis. At least a dozen children were reportedly among the injured. Emergency personnel rushed to respond to victims, escorting them into ambulances. People sought shelter in nearby shops amid the mayhem. Police quickly flooded to the scene to investigate. Darrell E. Brooks, a black male in his late 30s, is currently the suspect in custody. Brooks has a long criminal history including charges of domestic abuse, battery, disorderly conduct, recklessly endangering safety, bail-jumping felony, and resisting or obstructing an officer, according to the Wisconsin courts website. Brooks was released from prison on a cash bail of $1,000 on November 19, only two days before he committed the mass casualty event, a court record shows. The sheriff posted the bond on November 11.

This was not headlined but also fits the profile. It took a month for the spouses of the US President and Vice President to visit the town where it happened. Discussed above. KF kairosfocus

I saw a movie in which only the police and military had guns. The movie was "Schindler's List". ET

Kairosfocus: Ban all assault knives! At least no one died in that attack, including the attacker. That is good. If only those doctors had had guns they could have shot the perp before the police arrested him. Yes there are knife crimes in the UK, quite a few between young people who want to settle a grunge or think they're going to solve a problem. And some gun crimes. I never denied it. But they are much rarer than in the US. Fewer people die. Very, very rarely are schools or hospitals or other public places targets with the notable exception of religiously motivated attacks but, thankfully, even those are rare. Not nihilism, not rampant homosexuals or trans-people or atheists. Your narrative just doesn't hold water. But I'm sure you will triple down on it because you will never admit that, maybe, you've got something wrong. Again: I wonder what Gandhi would think of hardening targets? Or Jesus, for that matter. Nihilism is real, it is not an empty bogeyman, it was responsible for ruinous revolutions and two world wars, as well as the de facto third one. Arguably, it is behind the all time worst and ongoing holocaust, which is strongly present in both Europe and North America. Is it why some deranged person kills his grandmother and then moves on to the local primary school? Is it why some guy with hideous back pain specifically targets the doctor who worked on him? Those cases sound like people trying to cause the most pain and suffering which means they understand the value of human life and what it means to loose loved ones. Perhaps they felt the pain even more because they felt unloved, unwanted, unsupported, uncared for and wanted to give back what they perceived they received. JVL

JVL, the case you post was already addressed above. KF kairosfocus

JVL, likewise, your problem is with the research and with calling things by their correct but obviously unpalatable names. Nihilism is real, it is not an empty bogeyman, it was responsible for ruinous revolutions and two world wars, as well as the de facto third one. Arguably, it is behind the all time worst and ongoing holocaust, which is strongly present in both Europe and North America. KF kairosfocus

JVL, doubling down. KF kairosfocus

F/N: Now, a stabbing attack: https://www.breitbart.com/news/doctor-nurses-stabbed-at-california-hospital-man-arrested/

Authorities have arrested a man they say stabbed a doctor and two nurses inside a Southern California hospital emergency ward Doctor, nurses stabbed at California hospital; man arrestedThe Associated PressLOS ANGELES LOS ANGELES (AP) — A man stabbed a doctor and two nurses inside a Southern California hospital emergency ward on Friday and remained inside a room for hours before police arrested him, authorities said. The man walked into Encino Hospital Medical Center in the San Fernando Valley shortly before 4 p.m., Los Angeles police Officer Drake Madison said. The man had parked his car in the middle of a street and went to the emergency room, where he asked for treatment for anxiety before stabbing the doctor and nurses, authorities said. Fire officials said three victims were taken to a trauma center in critical condition. Police later said one was in critical condition and underwent surgery. All three were later listed in stable condition at Dignity Health Northridge Hospital Medical Center. The first floor of the Encino hospital and some nearby offices were evacuated, police said. “We’ve moved patients out of the danger zone,” LAPD Deputy Chief Alan Hamilton said at a news conference. There was no evidence that the man knew the victims, Hamilton added. The man remained inside a room in the hospital for about four hours as SWAT team members tried to unsuccessfully to negotiate with him before he was finally arrested, police said. He was taken to another hospital for treatment of self-inflicted injuries to his arms, authorities said. The man’s name wasn’t immediately released, but Hamilton said he had a lengthy criminal record, including two arrests last year for battery of a police officer and resisting arrest.

Ban all assault knives! (See the UK on knife crime. Try https://theconversation.com/knife-crime-causes-and-solutions-editors-guide-to-what-our-academic-experts-say-113318 and https://www.expressandstar.com/news/crime/2022/06/04/more-than-10000-victims-of-knife-and-gun-crime-in-west-midlands-within-three-years-figures-show/ ) Notice, it looks like he tried to kill himself too. And, attacking doctors and nurses? KF kairosfocus

Should the US start arming doctors as well?

Police have said a gunman who killed three employees and a patient at an Oklahoma hospital was targeting the surgeon who performed his back surgery. Dr Preston Phillips was killed in Wednesday's attack, according to Tulsa city officials. Police named the other victims as Dr Stephanie Husen, Amanda Glenn and William Love, at a news conference on Thursday. The suspect died of self-inflicted gunshot wounds. He had purchased a semi-automatic AR 15-style rifle just hours before the shooting, and was also armed with a handgun, police said. Tulsa police chief Wendell Franklin said the man "blamed Dr Phillips for ongoing pain" following the surgery he received at St Francis Hospital on 19 May.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-61676811 Time to buy stock in gun manufacturing companies 'cause this is just going to drive more US citizens to buy guns. JVL

Kairosfocus: you are now outright lying, twice despite specific correction; most recently to JH at 745. That is, willfully speaking with disregard to truth (and fairness) in hope of profiting by what you say or suggest being taken as true when you know or should know such is not the case. I have offered my opinion based on what I read and hear and on my own personal experience both in the US and the UK. You don't like it that your boogeyman of rampant nihilism is not causing violent confrontations in Western Europe. It's far more likely that someone will be killed by a religiously motivated terrorist attack than an extended suicide but, fortunately, both are extremely rare. I actually live in Europe. I keep up with the news every single day. It is true that same-sex couples and trans-individuals and atheists have wide-spread support and respect in the UK and in some other European countries. I'm sorry that doesn't fit with your narrow narrative but that doesn't mean it's not true. Most people of faith that I know here have taken the notion of love and support seriously instead of shunning and shaming or, in your case, not even wanting to talk about certain topics. It is also quite true that most Europeans do not own a gun, don't want to own a gun and don't see the need to own a gun. And it is true that most policemen in the UK do not carry firearms. (They have special armed teams when needed.) It's up to the Americans to solve their own problems. If they want to try even more target hardening well, that is their call. Did you hear the interview with the tennis player Andy Murray? He was a pupil at the primary school in Dunblane when it was attacked. He lived through such an event. He could not understand why people in America think it makes sense for children to go through drills where they learn to deal with someone shooting up their school. He just couldn't understand why Americans would rather do that than to limit the ownership of firearms. That's his opinion but it comes from a personal experience of being in one of those horrible situations. Do you think he's a liar as well? Might makes right is a key phrase. Is that why you want to harden targets? Arm teachers? Give the police more firepower? What happened to peace, love and understanding? You think the world is going to hell in a hand basket and so the good people should carry around weapons to protect themselves from the marauding atheists and homosexuals and trans-people and extended suicides. Do you believe your theistic views can make the world a better place but only with some firepower behind them? I wonder what Gandhi would have said about that? JVL

TR, I see you reject by implication and specific context from OP on, that Israel is a Western Democracy. That is already implicitly anti semitic, but let us take it that you overlooked the implications and do not intend such. The US and Israel are both facing movements of nihilistic destruction. Israel showed how to defeat such movements that spawn mass murdering attacks. Going further, you need to note that I am not just looking at what the manipulative media choose to headline and promote, we have seen just how persistently deceitful, slanderous and agenda driven such can be. The number one, all time mass slaughter of the innocent proceeds globally at the current rate of a million more per week. From the 70s on 800+ millions, statistically 1.4 billions. Where, Europe is deeply implicated. That such proceeds under patently false colours of law, rights, freedoms [to kill at will] makes little difference, some things are inherently evil and destructive. Start there. KF PS, any number of states and regions in the US, with high incidence of lawful firearms ownership, have extremely low rates of murder or of firearms use in murder. This is particularly so for rifles. So, it is not mere ownership or desire to own, it is lawlessness. S of the US, Mexico has on the books extremely restrictive law, but due to drug cartels etc has a major problem. I have already spoken of Jamaica, which is an island. kairosfocus

JVL, you are now outright lying, twice despite specific correction; most recently to JH at 745. That is, willfully speaking with disregard to truth (and fairness) in hope of profiting by what you say or suggest being taken as true when you know or should know such is not the case. First, the US has had a serious problem of lawlessness and a movement of the radicalied attacking soft targets, directly parallel to Israel, and as the OP points out, target hardening is on the table because it is what worked in Israel. Second, it is research by researchers who are quite obviously ideologically "liberal" or "progressive," which has shown that mass shootings (and similar mass murder attacks) are extended suicides, with influence factors including trauma [often bullying], rejection by peers, anomie, despair, identifying a target for rage and nihilism, with also seeking attention of the media. A serious solution attempt needs to address that tide of lawlessness and its roots, which Provine testified, are in evolutionary materialism, unconsciously echoing Plato in The :Laws Bk X. I expect you to do better than this. KF PS, You have rhetorically opened up the invitation to infer confession by projection, namely that several fashionable pushes reflect lawlessness and nihilism. For sure legal positivism opens a door that needs to be kept locked and barred. Such things may be associated, but that is not the definition of nihilism. You seem to ignore IEP, here is Wikipedia's confession:

Nihilism (/?na?(h)?l?z?m, ?ni?-/; from Latin nihil 'nothing') is a philosophy, or family of views within philosophy, that rejects generally accepted or fundamental aspects of human existence,[1][2] such as objective truth, knowledge, morality, values or meaning.[3][4] Different nihilist positions hold variously that human values are baseless, that life is meaningless, that knowledge is impossible, or that some set of entities do not exist or are meaningless or pointless.[5][6]

Sounds familiar? It should. To detect nihilism, look for a misanthropic, counsel of despair zeroing out of truth, knowledge, inherent freedom and dignity, moral government, often with impulses to destroy or domineer. Might makes right is a key phrase. kairosfocus

TimR: why is it only the US, out of all the western liberal democracies, that feels a need to “harden” itself? Why do the rest of us all get along without having to arm our teachers? Yes, that's what I can't figure out. Kairosfocus's notion that it's because of eroding moral standards (acceptance of same-sex marriage, support for trans-sexuals, fewer and fewer devote Christians, etc) can't be the explanation because ALL of Western Europe has gone down those same roads without the constant background of gunfire. Many police officers in the UK don't even carry firearms. It's not just the laws either, most people in Western Europe don't want to own a gun, don't see the need to own a gun AND consider it reasonable to limit who is legally allowed to own and use one. And we don't have gangs of drug dealers and nihilists running around shooting people in schools and restaurants and various public places. I'm not saying it never happens but compared to religious terrorism it's very rare. And the cases of religious terrorism are also very rare. Murder rates in general are lower despite what you might think based on Agatha Christie, etc. Why is American culture seemingly more violent? Is it because violence is still seen as a way to solve problems or influence people? Except for some religious fundamentalists and some pockets of deep resentment (like Northern Ireland) most Europeans have tried to leave the use of violence as a political tool behind which, considering that it was less than a century ago they we slaughtering each other in the millions, is quite an achievement. You might have thought that the US would have had a similar epiphany especially after the bloodiest conflict the nation has ever been involved with, the war between the states. But over 150 years later the problem seems to be getting worse. Maybe really big countries with really diverse kinds of people just can't hang together without a ridiculously strong central government like China or Russia? Maybe it takes a real strong hand, telling people what to do to keep that kind of ship of state afloat? JVL

JH what, specifically, is an "assault weapon"? Apart from agit prop, focus group tested verbiage, pretty thin gruel especially when they tried to come up with an arbitrary legal definition, which soon turned into mostly cosmetics. You will easily learn that having gone through WW1, it was realised that military engagements

(by mass trained conscripts mostly, by contrast the Old Contemptibles . . . so named, inadvertently, by Kaiser Bill who held his English mother in contempt . . . readily put down aimed rapid fire fusillades and volleys or even barrages of .303 Mk VII rounds discharged by the SMLE at far higher ranges, including use of volley sights ranged to 2400 yards, so they were reportedly confused with machine gun fire)

. . . seldom exceeded 300 yds. Second, due to mechanics involved, unless prohibitively heavy, full auto fire with then standard .30 cal rifle rounds, were difficult to control from riding up and arcing over. See here the M14 fiasco and rejection of the .280 and bullpup EM2/3. So even during WW1, submachine guns were developed, typically discharging pistol cal rounds but ranging up to 1 - 200 yds; the Thompson SMG, was too late for WW1, as it did not continue into 1919 - 20; yes it was expected there would be a horrific fight across Germany. A better solution was needed. The best solution was the MP44/StG44, firing a shortened 7.92 mm cartridge, with a large magazine. This was the immediate ancestor of the AK47, and rumour has it Hugo Schmeisser, taken as war booty by the Russians, was involved. The more remote descendant was the Armalite Rifle 15, AR 15, which was originally full auto, burst mode and single shot mode, which became the M16 and now M4. An assault rifle (=sturm gewehr, so named by Hitler on seeing the MP43/44 developed behind his back, he viewed rifles as defensive and deprecated them) is best defined by the breakthrough MP44 . . .

a rifle with selective fire [semi/burst/full automatic fire], firing an intermediate cartridge with effective range ~ 300 yds, using detachable high capacity magazines comparable to light machine guns such as the Lewis or Bren, generally more compact than a full sized rifle and sometimes with a folding or telescoping stock, such as the AK47 or M16 or Steyr AUG or Tavor etc.

The idea is sustained, distributed volume of fire -- MGs are targets for silencing once they open up -- that can be readily controlled by the average line or rear area soldier. For the assault, walking fire. In defence, controlled bursts that can break an assault. Intermediate power is low recoil and yet of higher power than typical 9 mm pistol rounds. In more recent times, the US has shifted to a longer ranged round, but there are concerns about controllability. That is why I pointed to the Grendel in 30 above. Bullpups are inherently more compact but there tend to be complaints about trigger feel. The AR15 paradigm is clearly a cut down version. Full auto and 2 - 3 round burst mode have been eliminated. The intermediate, low recoil calibre makes them easy to learn and use. They are relatively light [I was once admonished about the weight of fire extinguishers I preferred to install in labs]. They are thus well suited to defensive use and to learn key elements of shooting. They are adequate for moderately sized game animals, and hunting is in fact infantry training, apart from its traditional roles of putting meat on the table and being a pastime. In the US, despite headlines, they are involved in fewer murders than hands, fists and feet or knives. (I trust it is realised knives cannot be banned or controlled, so long as metal, flint and wood are available. As for banning our limbs . . . ) So, we have an objective, historically anchored term and a propaganda one. Choose carefully, as respect for accurate description and facts counts. KF kairosfocus

KF, my point is, why is it only the US, out of all the western liberal democracies, that feels a need to "harden" itself? Why do the rest of us all get along without having to arm our teachers? What is it that has led to this bizarre state of affairs. (Because I will tell you what, in the rest of the world we see this as bizarre). For that matter, why do average people feel they have to arm themselves e ery time they leave the house? I have spent many , many months in America. I have never felt at risk. Never feared that a stranger is going to attack me. It's some weird desire that people have where they want to believe they are at war all the time. Want to see life as a battleground. Like those idiots who turn up at rallies dressed in camo with assault weapons hanging off them. They're like overgrown children. I think most of them would run a mile from a real battle. TimR

Let's clip some more: https://www.independent.org/publications/article.asp?id=1422

“The Arms of All The People Should Be Taken Away” January 1, 1989 By Stephen P. Halbrook As we celebrate the Bicentennial of the Bill of Rights, evidence has been discovered that shows the Second Amendment was prompted by British plans to disarm each and every American. In 1777, William Knox, Under Secretary of State in the British colonial Office, circulated a proposal entitled “What is it to be Done with America?” Knox advocated the creation of a ruling aristocracy loyal to the Crown, establishment of the Church of England throughout the colonies and an unlimited power to tax. To keep them servile, Knox offered the panacea of disarming all of the people and relying solely on a standing army: The Militia Laws should be repealed and none suffered to be re-enacted, & the Arms of all the People should be taken away, & every piece of Ordnance removed into the King’s Stores, nor should any foundry or manufactory of Arms, Gunpowder, or Warlike Stores, be evre suffered in America, nor should any Gunpowder, Lead, Arms or Ordnance be imported into it without License; they will have but little need of such things for the future, as the King’s Troops, Ships Forts will be sufficient to protect them from any danger. (1) It all began in September 1768, when rumors of an impending occupation by British troops, allegedly to suppress riots and collect taxes, inflamed Boston. A group of the freeholders led by James Otis and John Hancock met at Faneuil Hall and passed several resolutions, including the following: WHEREAS, by an Act of Parliament, of the first of King William and Queen Mary, it is declared, that the Subjects being Protestants, may have Arms for their Defence; it is the Opinion of this town, that the said Declaration is founded in Nature, Reason and sound Policy, and is well adapted for the necessary Defence of the Community. And Forasmuch, as by a good and wholesome Law of this Province, every listed Soldier and other Householder (except Troopers, who by Law are otherwise to be provided) shall always be provided with a well fix’d Firelock, Musket, Accountrements and Ammunition, as in said Law particularly mentioned, tot he Satisfaction of the Commission officers of the company; . . . VOTED, that those of the Inhabitants, who may at present be unprovided, be and hereby are requested duly to observe the said Law at this Time. (2) A convention of Boston and several other towns met to consider the resolutions, and then petitioned the royal governor. When the governor rejected the petition, a patriot “A.B.C.” (probably Samuel Adams) wrote: It is reported that the Governor has said, that he has Three Things in Command from the Ministry, more grievous to the People, than any Thing hitherto made knonw. It is conjectured 1st, that the Inhabitants of this Province are to be disarmed. 2d. The Province to be governed Martial Law. And 3d, that a Number of Gentlemen who have exerted themselves in the cause of their country, are to be seized and sent to Great-Britain. Unhappy America! When thy Enemies are rewarded with Honors and Riches; but thy Friends punished and ruined only for asserting thy Rights, and pleading for thy Freedom. (3) Two days later, the British troops landed in Boston and took over key points, including Faneuil Hall. (4) However, only one report could be found that the inhabitants were being disarmed. Advices, so late as the 10th of October, mention.... That part of the troops had been quartered in the castle and barracks, and the remainder of them in some old empty houses.. That the inhabitants had been ordered to bring in their arms, which in general they had complied with; and that those in possession of any after the expiration of a notice given them, were to take the consequences. (5) It is difficult to imagine much compliance with such an order, especially since such reports were not widespread with extensive protests. However, disarming the colonists was clearly being contemplated . . . [--> Recall, Indian wars and raids were a reality]

KF kairosfocus

Vivid an interesting thread follows https://twitter.com/TRHLofficial/status/1532735649371103234 see also https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1532735649371103234.html kairosfocus

Maj Toure Black Guns Matter https://twitter.com/whitlockjason/status/1532846372105474050?s=21&t=zzOPE31sLmTQD4rnh4TIuA Vivid vividbleau

Paxx -

Bob: How many shootings would you have expected to have happened in these schools?

Same as at gun shows. Zero!

Are you arguing that guns in schools have no effect, or did you not read all of my comment? Bob O'H

PPS, we need to reconsider some roots of self-destructive impulses, such as those admitted to by Provine:

Naturalistic evolution has clear consequences that Charles Darwin understood perfectly. 1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent

[==> key theses of nihilism. Citing the just linked IEP: "Nihilism is the belief that all values are baseless and that nothing can be known or communicated. It is often associated with extreme pessimism and a radical skepticism that condemns existence. A true nihilist would believe in nothing, have no loyalties, and no purpose other than, perhaps, an impulse to destroy. While few philosophers would claim to be nihilists, nihilism is most often associated with Friedrich Nietzsche who argued that its corrosive effects would eventually destroy all moral, religious, and metaphysical convictions and precipitate the greatest crisis in human history." As without rational, responsible freedom, rationality collapses, Provine implies self referential incoherence. Similarly, ethical foundations include our self evident, pervasive first duties of reason: to truth, right reason, warrant and wider prudence, fairness and justice etc. Provine has given a recipe for gross (and all too common) intellectual irresponsibility.]

. . . . The first 4 implications are so obvious to modern naturalistic evolutionists that I will spend little time defending them. Human free will, however, is another matter. Even evolutionists have trouble swallowing that implication. I will argue that humans are locally determined systems that make choices. They have, however, no free will [--> without responsible freedom, mind, reason and morality alike disintegrate into grand delusion, hence self-referential incoherence and self-refutation. But that does not make such fallacies any less effective in the hands of clever manipulators] . . . [1998 Darwin Day Keynote Address, U of Tenn -- and yes, that is significant i/l/o the Scopes Trial, 1925]

kairosfocus

TR, there is an old vision that leaders are shepherds and that shepherds have rods and staffs. The staff is the famous crooked pole used to rescue sheep. The rod, a short club. And of course, there was the sling, an up to 400 m projectile weapon, depending on length and ammunition type. There clearly is an epidemic of nihilistic, misanthropic, suicidal wolves about and shepherds of today should view protection and rescue as roles, with duly updated equipment. And, Israel -- which has successfully hardened itself -- is a good model. KF PS, it might be time to reconsider the sling and its modern cousin the sling shot as supplementary, protective urban and rural weapons. The sling in particular cannot be effectively banned. kairosfocus

It’s really very sad. It seem like the great experiment that had so such potential and hope, has failed. Turned inward and self destructed. It’s very sad

One of the more stupid comments ever. jerry

All this discussion about arming teachers, as if it's completely normal, is, well, I guess it's an indication of how out of step America has become from the rest of the western democracies. The rest of us have continued to evolve and modernise, while America seems stuck in some cultural dead end. It's really very sad. It seem like the great experiment that had so such potential and hope, has failed. Turned inward and self destructed. It's very sad. TimR

Bob: How many shootings would you have expected to have happened in these schools? Same as at gun shows. Zero! Moreover, as I said, Thousands of schools in the USA have armed teachers/staff. Zero shootings. The Nincompoop in Chief, who has his own armed security force, doesn't like the idea of securing schools. He needs to take a look at Israel if he actually cares about protecting kids. Paxx

Gun deaths hit an all-time high in 2020. More than 45,000 Americans died by firearms in 2020, making firearm injury the 13th leading cause of death in the U.S. In 2020, firearms were involved in 79 percent of all homicides and 53 percent of all suicides. Mississippi, Louisiana, Wyoming, Missouri and Alabama have the highest firearm mortality rates in the country, according to the CDCTrusted Source. https://www.healthline.com/health-news/these-states-have-the-highest-rates-of-gun-violence-and-deaths#Heres-where-gun-violence-is-the-highest-in-the-U.S.

Mississippi: No permit, licence or registration required. No assault weapon or magazine size restrictions. No background checks required. Alabama: No permit, licence or registration required. No assault weapon or magazine size restrictions. No background checks required. Louisiana: No permit, licence or registration required. No assault weapon or magazine size restrictions. No background checks required. Missouri: No permit, licence or registration required. No assault weapon or magazine size restrictions. Background checks not required. Wyoming: No permit, licence or registration required. No assault weapon or magazine size restrictions. No background checks required.

The states with the lowest gun death ratesTrusted Source include Hawaii, Massachusetts, New Jersey, Rhode Island and New York.

Hawaii: Permit and registration required. Restrictions on assault handguns and magazines. Carry permits required. Background checks required. Massachusetts: Permits and licences required. Licence required for open and concealed carry. Assault weapon and magazine restrictions. Background checks required. New Jersey: Permits required to purchase. handgun registration required. Permits required for open and concealed carry. Assault weapon and magazine size restrictions. Background checks required. Rhode Island: Permits required to purchase handguns. Licence required for open and concealed carry. Background checks and waiting period required. New York: Permit, registration and licence required for handguns. No open carry allowed. Licence required for concealed carry. Assault weapon and magazine size restrictions. Background checks required. JHolo

Hypocrisy on guns explained https://twitter.com/Yolo304741/status/1532474602210877452 jerry

F/N: a Carlson commentary https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipp360lIfO0 food for thought. kairosfocus

F/N: Wikipedia confesses:

In sociology, anomie (/?æn?mi/) is a social condition defined by an uprooting or breakdown of any moral values, standards or guidance for individuals to follow.[1][2] Anomie was believed to possibly evolve from conflict of belief systems[3] and causes breakdown of social bonds between an individual and the community (both economic and primary socialization).[4] An example is alienation in a person that can progress into a dysfunctional inability to integrate within normative situations of their social world such as finding a job, achieving success in relationships, etc. The term, commonly understood to mean normlessness, is believed to have been popularized by French sociologist Émile Durkheim in his influential book Suicide (1897). Émile Durkheim suggested that Protestants exhibited a greater degree of anomie than Catholics.[5] However, Durkheim first introduced the concept of anomie in his 1893 work The Division of Labour in Society. Durkheim never used the term normlessness;[6] rather, he described anomie as "derangement," and "an insatiable will."[7][need quotation to verify] Durkheim used the term "the malady of the infinite" because desire without limit can never be fulfilled; it only becomes more intense.[8] For Durkheim, anomie arises more generally from a mismatch between personal or group standards and wider social standards; or from the lack of a social ethic, which produces moral deregulation and an absence of legitimate aspirations. This is a nurtured condition: Most sociologists associate the term with Durkheim, who used the concept to speak of the ways in which an individual's actions are matched, or integrated, with a system of social norms and practices…anomie is a mismatch, not simply the absence of norms. Thus, a society with too much rigidity and little individual discretion could also produce a kind of anomie…[9]

Sounds familiar? KF kairosfocus

PS, some years ago here, there was a cordoning off of a certain area DH, to search for drugs and guns. Marijuana [can we use the perfectly good and specific Hindi term, Ganja?] and cocaine are known to be present and guns have been heard to bark in said area. "Government Hill" with the main police station is perhaps five minutes away, if so much. By the time police were swiftly assembled and sent racing to DH, the guns and drugs had reportedly been already evacuated. As a measure that security was fairly tight, equally reportedly, at least one fairly prominent personality was caught in the cordon with a girlfriend (not his wife). This brings out several problems, likely there was a source in or near police HQ who seeing a raid assembling, fired off a text message. But the point is, when seconds count, police are minutes away. kairosfocus

BO'H: first, look at the corrective note that the number of mass school shootings since 1966 has been greatly distorted. The expected odds are likely far below those of a school fire or of children being killed in a school bus accident. Then, recognise a basic principle as Vivid just drew out, Mr Trudeau himself is routinely protected by a ring of armed bodyguards. How many Canadian Premiers have been assassinated? I suspect nil, for UK ones, I think one in C18. Lincoln, we are told, was murdered when his guard had stepped out for the moment. The relevant base includes, how many would be shooters etc have been deterred by target hardening of celebrities who full well understand that when seconds count 911 or 999 -- we actually have both here, and I suspect 119 might also work -- responders are minutes out. In Uvalde, sadly, even while they are on the other side of a locked security door turning a classroom into a captured Fort Vaux cum execution chamber.* The truly material case, as the OP shows, is Israel, where given a declared genocidal intent of enemies the odds of mass shooting, mass knifing, mass car mowing, mass rocketing, mass bombing attack became significant and target hardening worked to deter the number from growing beyond all bounds. You attacked a straw case, and in any case it is likely on the reported research that -- despite the researchers' own error -- the likelihood of being killed rapidly before one can injure or kill a large number will dissuade. One statistical pattern above is that when shooters are stopped by an already armed person who is there, the number shot falls to 2 or so, but when police have to come in, it rises to about 14. Target hardening is credible as deterrent and as protection, KF *F/N, I still say a sawed off telephone pole or even tree trunk would have worked well within the time to get a master key. I now add, even an injection of concentrated H2SO4 into the mechanism might have done it depending. How long would it have taken to take a chain saw to a tree? The responders doubtless had several kevlar suits and perhaps ceramic inserts. I even wonder about windows and scopes. kairosfocus

Rules for thee but not for me. Here is the deal for me. If every politician, celebrity, media people, pro sports athletes, etc, etc give up all their armed guards, all their personal security guards, get rid of their posse’s I might consider giving up my Sig, Bursa and AR https://twitter.com/mrcolionnoir/status/1532478122578305029?s=21&t=mcCCUpsJoZG3G34jHOMmhQ What a joke!! The fabulists are fabulating. Off topic but propaganda works https://www.zerohedge.com/political/bbc-changed-victims-statement-so-not-misgender-her-trans-rapist-report Vivid vividbleau

No shootings occur at schools where teachers carry concealed handguns.

How many shootings would you have expected to have happened in these schools? The paper you link to doesn't do the calculation, and the author gives up without trying:

There might typically be statistical tests at this point in a paper that would compare the rate that people are killed or wounded in shooting attacks at schools that allow teachers to carry versus ones that don’t or a comparison of mass public shootings at the two types of schools, but here we can make a straightforward comparison.

It's not too difficult to get some estimates: the biggest problem is the effort to collect the correct statistics. Incidentally, the 30% stat for Texas is the proportion of school districts that allow staff to carry guns. Bob O'H

JH, your nowsadly typical toxic distractor strawmen again; here extended to projective ad hominems; reflecting again your disregard for truth, right reason and fairness. A sure sign that you have no cogent response to what surfaced from 547 above but are determined to stick to crooked yardstick thinking. The focal issue is that research has identified characteristics of shooters and that their attacks are extended suicides, tying in underlying factors. I clip: https://news.yahoo.com/really-consistent-pathway-society-stop-185445896.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall

Peterson: There’s this really consistent pathway. Early childhood trauma seems to be the foundation, whether violence in the home, sexual assault, parental suicides, extreme bullying. [--> trauma] Then you see the build toward hopelessness, despair, isolation, self-loathing, [--> nihilistic despair] oftentimes rejection from peers. [--> rejection by those whose approval is valuable] That turns into a really identifiable crisis point where they’re acting differently. [--> radicalisation] Sometimes they have previous suicide attempts. What’s different from traditional suicide is that the self-hate turns against a group. They start asking themselves, “Whose fault is this?” [--> targetting, extending the suicide] Is it a racial group or women or a religious group, or is it my classmates? The hate turns outward. There’s also this quest for fame and notoriety. [--> media attention, if I cannot get love then let me force them to pay me attention] POLITICO: You’ve written about how mass shootings are always acts of violent suicide. Do people realize this is what’s happening in mass shootings? Peterson: I don’t think most people realize that these are suicides, in addition to homicides. Mass shooters design these to be their final acts. When you realize this, it completely flips the idea that someone with a gun on the scene is going to deter this. [--> a point of disagreement, if the target is hard enough it will show that an attack will fail to hurt the target, unless utter surprise and quickness buy time to complete the attack, e.g. suicide bombing] If anything, that’s an incentive for these individuals. They are going in to be killed. It’s hard to focus on the suicide because these are horrific homicides. But it’s a critical piece because we know so much from the suicide prevention world that can translate here.

Therefore, we see root causes and at the heart of them are trauma, attention seeking, nihilism and despair (thus depression, antecedent to suicide). The targets will be dehumanised and blamed so they "deserve" their death sentence and execution during a self-assigned kamikaze mission. Murder is always the ultimate hate crime, violation of the person and act of dehumanisation. Where, further polarisation is only making the situation worse. And since there is clear hostility to the Christian faith involved, let me lay out a foundational Christian ethics teaching on hate:

1 Jn 3: 11 For this is the message that you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. 12 We should not be like Cain, who was of the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own deeds were evil and his brother's righteous. 13 Do not be surprised, brothers,3 that the world hates you. 14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers. Whoever does not love abides in death. 15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 16 By this we know love, that he laid down his life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers. 17 But if anyone has the world's goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God's love abide in him? 18 Little children, let us not love in word or talk but in deed and in truth.

Yes, sometimes professed Christians have failed this test. That is sad, and it points to a call to sound reformation. The solutions need to attack those roots and target hardening undermines likelihood of success and notoriety. That includes recognising the growing pool of nihilism and its wellsprings. Where, such nihilism is also evident in major institutions and the media; where it is increasingly clear that a great many have come to hate our civilisation and its heritage, going far beyond the recognition that a civilisation will always be a mix of iron and clay, light and darkness, so sound reformation is a reasonable goal. What we are seeing instead is jacobin nihilistic anomie, nihilism and anticivilisational attitude. The ongoing slaughter of 63 million of our living posterity under colour of law, rights and freedom [to kill at will] is a particularly strong sign for the US, and the wider global toll carries the problem across the world, 800+ millions in the same frame. A global holocaust currently proceeding at about a million more per week, with the US proportion across 49 years averaging about 25,000 per week. All of this puts nihilism as a central challenge. As IEP outlines,

Nihilism is the belief that all values are baseless and that nothing can be known or communicated. It is often associated with extreme pessimism and a radical skepticism that condemns existence. A true nihilist would believe in nothing, have no loyalties, and no purpose other than, perhaps, an impulse to destroy. While few philosophers would claim to be nihilists, nihilism is most often associated with Friedrich Nietzsche who argued that its corrosive effects would eventually destroy all moral, religious, and metaphysical convictions and precipitate the greatest crisis in human history. In the 20th century, nihilistic themes–epistemological failure, value destruction, and cosmic purposelessness–have preoccupied artists, social critics, and philosophers.

It goes on to speak of "existential despair as a response to nihilism" and "indifference" that rejects foundational knowledge. As was further identified above, Provine in his 1998 Darwin Day address laid out root issues:

Naturalistic evolution has clear consequences that Charles Darwin understood perfectly. 1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent[==> key theses of nihilism ] . . . . The first 4 implications are so obvious to modern naturalistic evolutionists that I will spend little time defending them. Human free will, however, is another matter. Even evolutionists have trouble swallowing that implication. I will argue that humans are locally determined systems that make choices. They have, however, no free will [--> without responsible freedom, mind, reason and morality alike disintegrate into grand delusion, hence self-referential incoherence and self-refutation. But that does not make such fallacies any less effective in the hands of clever manipulators] . . . [1998 Darwin Day Keynote Address, U of Tenn -- and yes, that is significant i/l/o the Scopes Trial, 1925]

Nor is this a novelty, For 2360 years, the root of mass nihilism has been as described on record in our civilisation, starting with Plato in The Laws, Bk X. Yes, we know you are desperate to change subject and target the despised other but that is irresponsible or even nihilistic behaviour. There is a movement of despair and nihilistic self appointed kamikaze attacks bon soft targets. To solve it we have to face it and deal with its worldviews and cultural agenda roots. Red herrings led to ad hominem soaked strawmen set alight to cloud, confuse, poison and polarise the atmosphere, frustrating focus on actual research and publication, is irresponsible and should cease. This is far too serious for the all too usual trollish stunts and rhetorical gambits that pop up at UD and elsewhere. KF kairosfocus

No shootings occur at schools where teachers carry concealed handguns. https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3377801 30% of schools in Texas have armed teachers/staff. Unfortunately, not the Robb Elementary School. 20 states have armed teachers/staff. Thousands of schools in the USA have armed teachers/staff. Paxx

TimR@740, I agree. I can’t say the same for my native country, Canada. For many decades, indigenous children were forcibly removed from their families and given over to church-run residential schools. “Take the Indian out of the child” was the catch phrase coined by Canada’s first prime minister. The damage done to generations of indigenous people by the government and by the church is still being felt today. The visible consequences include elevated levels of alcoholisms, addiction and suicide rates amongst indigenous peoples. What I find offensive is people blaming elevated youth suicide on things like pro choice, gay rights, same sex marriage, transgendered rights, and other “progressive” movements. Completely ignoring the root cause that lies firmly at the doorstep of the culture and religion that these people revere. JHolo

Asimov’s Foundation series

Asimov kept extending his series and got to Foundation and Earth. He didn’t know what to do after writing this. He then went to prequels and died before resolving the major issue introduced in Foundation and Earth. jerry

Bob OH, well, that was an interesting 28 balls. Maybe not in the handcart just yet. TimR

JHolo @731: yes, Maori are vastly overrepresented in those statistics. Colonialisation - including land and resource confiscations, language prohibitions, forced europeanisation of maori children etc, has created a legacy we are dealing with to this day. Although not perfect, I am proud of our approach, in that, as a country we are confronting the issue head on, and not sweeping it under the carpet. Our founding constitutional document is a treaty between Maori and the crown, that informs all legislation. However, we have a huge amount of work still to do. TimR

JH, you clearly know that I am drawing just what I said, a pessimistic induction on the long history of civilisations. I am saying can we postpone decline for a decent interval. As for, colonisation has disproportionate effects on those imposed on, that is no surprise. However refocusing on oh the colonisers does not change the fact that NZ indeed has the same problems contrary to earlier suggestions. And if you want to argue that some sectors do not have some of the patterns, why that obtains for the US too. For simple instance there are states with high ownership of firearms with rather low firearms crime. That was pointed out upthread by Paxx etc. And more. KF PS, NZ has seen its share of serial killers, a closely related problem, and the ones I notice are from the colonisers https://serialkillercalendar.com/NEW-ZEALANDS-WORST-SERIAL-KILLERS.php kairosfocus

KF: JH, I am not making a slippery slope argument, even though in many cases once there is a ratcheting dynamic and a cliff’s edge such are most definitely not fallacious as those who so speak to deride typically fallaciously suggest.

Translation: I am making a slippery slope argument. But, I notice that you have not addressed the British/Christian colonial impact on youth suicide rates in former British colonies. JHolo

PS, just to give backdrop lest we go into yet another math one upmanship gambit:

In physics, particularly in statistical mechanics, we base many of our calculations on the assumption of metric transitivity, which asserts that a system’s trajectory will eventually [--> given "enough time and search resources"] explore the entirety of its state space – thus everything that is phys-ically possible will eventually happen. It should then be trivially true that one could choose an arbitrary “final state” (e.g., a living organism) and “explain” it by evolving the system backwards in time choosing an appropriate state at some ’start’ time t_0 (fine-tuning the initial state). In the case of a chaotic system the initial state must be specified to arbitrarily high precision. But this account amounts to no more than saying that the world is as it is because it was as it was, and our current narrative therefore scarcely constitutes an explanation in the true scientific sense. We are left in a bit of a conundrum with respect to the problem of specifying the initial conditions necessary to explain our world. A key point is that if we require specialness in our initial state (such that we observe the current state of the world and not any other state) metric transitivity cannot hold true, as it blurs any dependency on initial conditions – that is, it makes little sense for us to single out any particular state as special by calling it the ’initial’ state. If we instead relax the assumption of metric transitivity (which seems more realistic for many real world physical systems – including life), then our phase space will consist of isolated pocket regions and it is not necessarily possible to get to any other physically possible state (see e.g. Fig. 1 for a cellular automata example).

[--> or, there may not be "enough" time and/or resources for the relevant exploration, i.e. we see the 500 - 1,000 bit complexity threshold at work vs 10^57 - 10^80 atoms with fast rxn rates at about 10^-13 to 10^-15 s leading to inability to explore more than a vanishingly small fraction on the gamut of Sol system or observed cosmos . . . the only actually, credibly observed cosmos]

Thus the initial state must be tuned to be in the region of phase space in which we find ourselves [--> notice, fine tuning], and there are regions of the configuration space our physical universe would be excluded from accessing, even if those states may be equally consistent and permissible under the microscopic laws of physics (starting from a different initial state). Thus according to the standard picture, we require special initial conditions to explain the complexity of the world, but also have a sense that we should not be on a particularly special trajectory to get here (or anywhere else) as it would be a sign of fine–tuning of the initial conditions. [ --> notice, the "loading"] Stated most simply, a potential problem with the way we currently formulate physics is that you can’t necessarily get everywhere from anywhere (see Walker [31] for discussion). ["The “Hard Problem” of Life," June 23, 2016, a discussion by Sara Imari Walker and Paul C.W. Davies at Arxiv.]

kairosfocus

JVL, please remember my academic base. If you are led to imagine I am decrying mathematical models, that should suffice to show that the interpretation is off kilter. I am pointing out that real systems often have nonlinearities and can have zones of catastrophic behaviour, sometimes with probabilistic elements; think of the dynamics of avalanches. That BTW is a useful metaphor for what happens when critical mass is suddenly assembled for a nuclear bomb leading to runaway fission. Where, configuration, state and phase spaces are a commonplace in many fields. Political systems are like that and I gave a notorious example. The British governor of Massachusetts on April 19 1775 clearly had no idea he was triggering civil war, revolution and global war. KF kairosfocus

PPS, I think it is clearly necessary to point to Plato, in thread so the link cannot simply be ignored:

Ath[enian Stranger, in The Laws, Bk X 2,360 ya]. . . .[The avant garde philosophers and poets, c. 360 BC] say that fire and water, and earth and air [i.e the classical "material" elements of the cosmos -- the natural order], all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art . . . [such that] all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only [ --> that is, evolutionary materialism is ancient and would trace all things to blind chance and mechanical necessity; observe, too, the trichotomy: "nature" (here, mechanical, blind necessity), "chance" (similar to a tossed fair die), ART (the action of a mind, i.e. intelligently directed configuration)] . . . . [Thus, they hold] that the principles of justice have no existence at all[--> notice the reduction to zero] in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.-

[ --> Relativism, too, is not new; complete with its radical amorality rooted in a worldview that has no foundational IS that can ground OUGHT, leading to an effectively arbitrary foundation only for morality, ethics, so too justice, law and government: accident of personal preference, the ebbs and flows of power politics, accidents of history and and the shifting sands of manipulated community opinion driven by "winds and waves of doctrine and the cunning craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming . . . " cf a video on Plato's parable of the cave; from the perspective of pondering who set up the manipulative shadow-shows, why.]

These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might,

[ --> Evolutionary materialism -- having no IS that can properly ground OUGHT -- leads to the promotion of amorality on which the only basis for "OUGHT" is seen to be might (and manipulation: might in "spin"), opening the door to cynicism, hyperskepticism and nihilism . . . this is actually an infamous credo of nihilism . . . also, it reeks of cynically manipulative lawless oligarchy . . . ]

and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions [ --> Evolutionary materialism-motivated amorality "naturally" leads to continual contentions and power struggles influenced by that amorality at the hands of ruthless power hungry nihilistic agendas], these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is,to live in real dominion over others [ --> such amoral and/or nihilistic factions, if they gain power, "naturally" tend towards ruthless abuse and arbitrariness . . . they have not learned the habits nor accepted the principles of mutual respect, justice, fairness and keeping the civil peace of justice, so they will want to deceive, manipulate and crush -- as the consistent history of radical revolutions over the past 250 years so plainly shows again and again], and not in legal subjection to them [--> nihilistic will to power not the spirit of justice and lawfulness].

Notice, might makes right. kairosfocus

JH, I am not making a slippery slope argument, even though in many cases once there is a ratcheting dynamic and a cliff's edge such are most definitely not fallacious as those who so speak to deride typically fallaciously suggest. I am pointing to a longstanding well known fact of history, civilisations strongly tend to decline and collapse. Further, it is a simple fact that more or less lawless oligarchy is the natural state of government. All of that said, I pointed out a result from research, that mass shootings (and we may freely add, other similar mass attacks) are extended suicides, with targets for rage and destructive impulses, involving anomie etc. Suicides point to depression also. Sadly, this latest attack is even complete with a suicide note, others have had manifestos or other messages, nowadays often online. Such a pattern implies nihilism is involved and in our civilisation we have a well known, longstanding root of nihilism, evolutionary materialism, which was so exposed by Plato 2360 years ago. Similar attitudes are implicated in gangster sub cultures, terrorist organisations and the like. Regrettably, such is deeply entrenched in our cultural elites. So, if we are to deal with the downstream effects we have to deal with the worldview and cultural agenda frameworks. I note, no cogent response to showing why several of the key nihilist zeros are fallacious: truth is real, key truths are knowable, this includes first duties that are also first laws framing sound government etc. That reaction says something, something that is sadly telling. KF PS, no, I am not suggesting social determinism nor do I need a Mule character as deus ex machina to break the implications of determinism, nor do I look for some Trantor. kairosfocus

Kairosfocus: I used nonlinear as there is an implicit tendency to perceive well behaved trends that are linear or linearisable in the small or by shifting to a different domain [logs are famous] for a state space of some order "[F]or a state space of some order".? Honestly, I think you'd be better understood if you stopped with the vague mathematical references which might not be valid. What we have to watch for are things which are not like that, sometimes without warning and sometimes on an intermittent basis Always be alert? Is that your point? Why not just say that? And I am here pointing my finger at modelling, simulation, forecasting and their implicit rule of thumb analogues. Right, so . . . you make a lot of mathematical connections (or try to) and then you decry mathematical modelling? You need to consider your position a bit more fully. You need to spend some time being a bit more consistent with how you apply mathematical structures so that you don't try to embrace and reject them at the same time. You can't pick and choose with mathematics: either you accept it or you don't. JVL

As an aside, I am in the process of re-reading Issac Asimov’s Foundation series. For those not familiar with this trilogy in five parts (or is it six?) the basic plot is essentially KF’s slippery slope arguments of the downfall of society writ large, supported by “scientific statistical” psychological predictions. It has been over 35 years since I first read it and , possible spoiler alert (or maybe not, because my memory is questionable), the conclusion is that the slippery slope, inevitable outcomes were anything but that. Perhaps this is just another Hari Seldon crisis. :) JHolo

KF: Where of course corrective facts about NZ were put up, they suffer the same basic patterns to the point of suffering the highest young adult suicide rate.

What is common amongst the British/Christian colonial expansion is a systemic and long term mistreatment of the indigenous peoples. So much so that even today youth suicide rates amongst indigenous youth is disproportionately higher than that of other youth. Much higher. Given That New Zealand has a much higher indigenous population than Australia, Canada and the US -17% vs 3%, 5% and 2% respectively, it is not surprising that NZ’s youth suicide is much higher. But this is an indictment of British/Christian colonialism, not on recent progressive moves. Of the four countries mentioned, only New Zealand has reserved a minimum number of parliamentary seats for indigenous representation. JHolo

Gun shows are the safest places in the world. Paxx

JVL, often there are jump discontinuities. I used nonlinear as there is an implicit tendency to perceive well behaved trends that are linear or linearisable in the small or by shifting to a different domain [logs are famous] for a state space of some order. What we have to watch for are things which are not like that, sometimes without warning and sometimes on an intermittent basis. And I am here pointing my finger at modelling, simulation, forecasting and their implicit rule of thumb analogues. KF kairosfocus

Kairosfocus: Things that do not scale in proportion, that in some cases can have catastrophic results from a seemingly small increment. Depends on the 'slope' or 'gradient' though. I think your use was just a bit hyperbolic. And, considering you have not real scales or measurements, inaccurate. Predictability to some is one thing, plausible enough to be taken under prudence is another. Think something like the black swan event. April 19, 1775 is a classic in point. But, again, those are not really quantifiable and, therefore, not able to be categorised as linear or nonlinear. As you know, mathematical terms have very particular definitions and I consider nonlinear to be not in common, non-mathematical use and, therefore, requiring strict adherence to the definition. JVL

U/D on Oklahoma https://www.breitbart.com/2nd-amendment/2022/06/02/police-tulsa-shooting-suspect-targeted-specific-doctor-over-back-pain/

Police: Tulsa Shooting Suspect Targeted Specific Doctor Over Back Pain AWR Hawkins2 Jun 2022 Police said at a Thursday morning news conference that a surgery patient targeted a specific doctor at Tulsa’s St. Francis Hospital campus because his back continued to hurt after an operation. Police indicate that the suspect “went into the hospital for back surgery,” which was performed by Preston Phillips, on May 19. The suspect was released from the hospital on May 24, but called Dr. Phillips’s office over the next “several days” complaining of back pain. The suspect was able to see Dr. Phillips on May 31 “for additional treatment.” Police said that on June 1 “[The suspect] called Dr. Phillips’ office again, complaining of back pain and wanting additional assistance.” The suspect purchased a .40 caliber handgun from a pawn shop on May 29 and a rifle from a local gun store on June 1. At 4:53 p.m. Tulsa police received a 911 call about a shooting and thereafter received calls that the attack was occurring in the Natalie Building on the St. Francis Hospital campus. Police indicated that the suspect, who is dead from a self-inflicted gun wound, left behind a letter explaining he was frustrated over back pain and intended to kill Dr. Phillips. Dr. Phillips was killed in the attack.

Beyond belief. KF kairosfocus

Here's an example of another aspect of a Really Big Problem: people are reporting they are emotionally drained by the news stories of only particular shootings, not news stories of shootings universally. Some deaths are more important and worthy of emotional drainage while others are not. The question is, is your emotional state configured by hype in the media? and do you think that's OK? Andrew asauber

Things that do not scale in proportion, that in some cases can have catastrophic results from a seemingly small increment. Predictability to some is one thing, plausible enough to be taken under prudence is another. Think something like the black swan event. April 19, 1775 is a classic in point. kairosfocus

Kairosfocus: pointed out already. Try April 19, 1775. I bet the governor did not expect civil war and global war with Britain on the losing end. Does that mean when you say 'nonlinear effects' you just mean unforeseen or unexpected effects? I'm not quite sure why you used the term 'nonlinear'. JVL

Horace Smith's "Ozymandias" In Egypt's sandy silence, all alone, Stands a gigantic Leg, which far off throws The only shadow that the Desert knows:— "I am great OZYMANDIAS," saith the stone, "The King of Kings; this mighty City shows The wonders of my hand."— The City's gone,— Naught but the Leg remaining to disclose The site of this forgotten Babylon. We wonder,—and some Hunter may express Wonder like ours, when thro' the wilderness Where London stood, holding the Wolf in chace, He meets some fragment huge, and stops to guess What powerful but unrecorded race Once dwelt in that annihilated place. kairosfocus

I met a traveller from an antique land Who said: Two vast and trunkless legs of stone Stand in the desart. Near them, on the sand, Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown, And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command, Tell that its sculptor well those passions read Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things, The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed: And on the pedestal these words appear: "My name is Ozymandias, king of kings; Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!" Nothing beside remains. Round the decay Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare The lone and level sands stretch far away. —?Percy Shelley's "Ozymandias" 1819 edition[ kairosfocus

JVL pointed out already. Try April 19, 1775. I bet the governor did not expect civil war and global war with Britain on the losing end. B-OH: If it's a bowler's wicket, conditions don't usually get better for the batsmen. There is a reason why some matches are very low scoring. Sev: Michael Holding was one of the greats. Oh, as for civilisational decline, after 6,000 years the pessimistic induction is that there is an entropy of civilisations. The issue though is that Democracy failed once before, discrediting it for 2,000 years. That's what Ship of State (and Ac 27) are about. After invention of printing, vernacular Bibles, increased literacy, ferment of the reformation [think here, Vindicae 1579, Dutch DoI 1581, etc down to Lex Rex and Locke], emergence of newspapers and other widely circulated publications, and the rise of coffee houses etc as discussion centres, joined to enough better conditions that public opinion of consequence emerged etc, the stage was set for the Glorious Revolution 1688 and the American one from 1775. That opened up a new, successful version. But it remains that oligarchy and particularly lawless oligarchy is the natural state. The current decline is headed there. Where of course corrective facts about NZ were put up, they suffer the same basic patterns to the point of suffering the highest young adult suicide rate. ET, chaos is of help to no one. AS, The breakdowns are obvious from what happened in Texas. The Oklahoma case indicates the problem too . . . I posed the issue of what if a suicide bomber made a try in Israel. Which goes back to the OP. KF kairosfocus

Allegedly humans are causing climate change. So, fewer humans should be a good thing for the climate alarmists. It is a safe bet that all the anti-gun nuts are also climate alarmists ET

Bob O'H/718

Yeah, but batting conditions might improve after lunch.

I don't know. I don't think English cricket ever recovered from the announcement that "The bowler's Holding, the batsman's Willey." As for going to hell in a handbasket, human civilization has been doing that ever since humans became civilized but we never seem to get there. Maybe - to use another sports metaphor - it's because God keeps moving the goalposts. Seversky

TimR @ 709 -

We are definitely going to hell in a handbag,

Yeah, but batting conditions might improve after lunch. (apologies to everyone who doesn't have a clue what this is about. And also my apologies to Kiwis who know exactly what this is about) Bob O'H

Kairosfocus: would have nonlinear effects Um . . . what kind of effects would they have then? JVL

Other questions dangling out there are, how well do laws get enforced? How well are current gun-related laws being enforced? Are they making any difference to a well-defined problem? And how well would new ones be enforced? What's the metric? Andrew asauber

F/N: New Zealand and nihilistic self destructive despair https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-40284130

Think of New Zealand and what likely comes to mind is beautiful nature - fjords, mountains and magnificent landscapes, vast, empty and endless. But for years already, the country has been struggling with another form of isolation - depression and suicide. A new report by Unicef contains a shocking statistic - New Zealand has by far the highest youth suicide rate in the developed world. A shock but no surprise - it's not the first time the country tops that table. The Unicef report found New Zealand's youth suicide rate - teenagers between 15 and 19 - to be the highest of a long list of 41 OECD and EU countries. The rate of 15.6 suicides per 100,000 people is twice as high as the US rate and almost five times that of Britain . . . . The high suicide rate ties in with other data, showing for instance child poverty, high rates of teenage pregnancies or families where neither of the parents have work. New Zealand also has "one of the world's worst records for bullying in school", says Shaun Robinson of the Mental Health Foundations New Zealand. He explains there is a "toxic mix" of very high rates of family violence, child abuse and child poverty that need to be addressed to tackle the problem.

So, not quite the paradise being portrayed. kairosfocus

ISSUE, Nihilism in power, per ship of state kairosfocus

NOTED I see reference to another mass shooting in the ongoing cluster: https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2022/06/01/3-killed-shooting-tulsa-medical-facility/

Three people were killed Wednesday afternoon in a shooting inside a medical facility in Tulsa, Oklahoma. FOX 23 reports that the facility is located on the St. Francis Hospital campus. The alleged attacker is also dead. NBC News notes that multiple others were injured during the attack, which took place at 5:00 p.m. local time.

It seems the perp shot himself [from above, on arrival of the police]. Sadly, this fits the extended suicide pattern identified by researchers, complete with not wanting to be taken alive. Where of course, obviously, soft target, and obviously, media fanned clustering. Another factor in this case is reported by Yahoo: "Police described the gunman as a Black male, aged 35 to 40, and said they were “getting close” to discovering his identity." Also, he used a rifle and a pistol, raising the issue how he got into the facility with something that hard to conceal. Thus, too, we readily infer, soft target. (Imagine if this were Israel and he was wearing a suicide vest which he intended to trigger.) In short, the pattern identified by researchers seems to apply. Nihilism is at the heart of these issues, we need to address it. KF kairosfocus

Folks, the key issue has been, from the OP, what is a better alternative than BA's suggestion, which I augmented at 30. Most of the above has been little more than evasive and/or putting up proposals that though popular in certain circles, would have nonlinear effects. This tells us, there is no cogent alternative but we are seeing Marx's version of the hegelian dialectic; create or exploit a crisis to set up a thesis=antithesis clash to drive towards a preferred synthesis. Fundamentally manipulative, deceptive and driven by hidden agendas. So, we have every right to be wary and to identify the pushers, promoters and public faces/voices/pens as bought and paid for technicos at Fair Havens [cf Ac 27]. So, who is Mr Moneybags, what does he want, why? Whatever it is, it cannot see the light of day and we should be concerned. The bottom-line is, the federal state in the US is not fit and proper to be trusted with safety and security given its track record of 63 million dead through decrees under colour of law, rights and freedom -- freedom to kill at will -- backed by resistance to reformation. Such a state should be facing a radical, defence of civilisation reform process, not leading the charge to further impose its business as usual policies. Going beyond, again and again, we have seen twisted, misleading or misrepresented statistics, refusal to deal with the core of the phenomenon: mass shootings are extended suicides conditioned by impacts of trauma, nihilism, despair, depression and selection of a soft target for the driving rage. That nihilism drives cynical manipulation of the public, decrees of courts and parliaments, policy agendas and more, implying a long train of abuses and usurpations with deafness to concern or remonstrance. It leads to a topsy-turvy world in which truth is disregarded, reason twisted, prudence is dismissed out of hand, self evident first principles are ignored even as they are appealed to to manipulate and we find ourselves facing the breakdown of the cultural buttresses that stabilise constitutional democracy with lawful freedom. We have seen above how even the actual scale of the problem, mass school shootings, has been grossly misrepresented to the point of big lie tactic gaslighting, raising the issue that there is a destructive agenda that cannot see the light of day lurking behind the agit prop and lawfare push. Similarly, the majority of US gun deaths [IIRC 54%] are suicides, deaths of nihilistic despair, again putting the roots of nihilism into the heart of the problem. Which, as I highlighted, traces strongly to evolutionary materialism and its impact on worldviews, attitudes and behaviour. Recall, it was identified by research that mass shootings are extended suicides. Down that business as usual road lies failure of political systems and reversion to lawless,. nihilistic oligarchy. What Plato warned against in the parable of the ship of state. Which, as a bloodily bought lesson of history, is of course ignored. Shipwreck lies ahead, is what Plato warned. But, are we listening? If we were, the things I put on the table a day ago would have been focal to onward discussion. Obviously, they are not. Another warning flag. KF PS, Paxx, interesting statistics, source references are generally helpful, however humble. Of course, consistent with a sounder view, that it is lawlessness, nihilism, that drives the problem, whether personal suicides or extended suicides or street level gangsterism, or the drugs epidemic [I gather, 70+ k fentanyl deaths per year but to restrain would require border controls that the agenda does not want], or the nihilism of those who influence or wield power. PPS, I think this, from CDC, on Fentanyl, makes interesting reading: https://www.cdc.gov/stopoverdose/fentanyl/index.html

Illicitly manufactured fentanyl (IMF) is available on the drug market in different forms, including liquid and powder1. Powdered fentanyl looks just like many other drugs. It is commonly mixed with drugs like heroin, cocaine, and methamphetamine and made into pills that are made to resemble other prescription opioids. Fentanyl-laced drugs are extremely dangerous, and many people may be unaware that their drugs are laced with fentanyl . . . . Fentanyl and other synthetic opioids are the most common drugs involved in overdose deaths.1 Even in small doses, it can be deadly. Over 150 people die every day from overdoses related to synthetic opioids like fentanyl.2 Drugs may contain deadly levels of fentanyl, and you wouldn’t be able to see it, taste it, or smell it.

The previous article noted, for 2020: "More adults between 18 and 45 died of fentanyl overdoses in 2020 than COVID-19, motor vehicle accidents, cancer and suicide . . . " I clip:

Fentanyl overdoses have surged to the leading cause of death for adults between the ages of 18 and 45, according to an analysis of U.S. government data. Between 2020 and 2021, nearly 79,000 people between 18 and 45 years old — 37,208 in 2020 and 41,587 in 2021 — died of fentanyl overdoses, the data analysis from opioid awareness organization Families Against Fentanyl shows . . . . Comparatively, between Jan. 1, 2020, and Dec. 15, 2021, there were more than 53,000 COVID-19 deaths among those between the ages of 18 and 49, according to data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). [--> recall, most CV19 deaths are for people 70 and over, IIRC, George Floyd had an overdose of Fentanyl in his body, likely a factor in the horrific incident that led to his needless death]

So, why aren't things like this given top policy and headlines billing? Ans, while objectively a serious issue, they do not fit the policy agendas of those who want to herd us into their preferred corral, not just the bought and paid for face cards presenting the agenda, but even more importantly Mr Moneybags behind it. It is worth referring to Ac 27 as I commented on it 9 years ago. Will we wake up in time to turn back before the crumbling cliff edge collapses underfoot? kairosfocus

JHolo: At least 4 people were killed in a Tulsa, Oklahoma, hospital campus shooting, police say The coward killed himself when the police showed up. JVL

TimR@709. I have been to NZ several times and they are remarkably good at hiding the nihilistic amoral state they must be given their stance on LGBQ, same sex marriage, abortion and gun control. Their prime minister even had premarital sex and a child out of wedlock. Hell, NZ even has an Assisted Dying Service. It’s only a matter of time before they legalize inter-species marriage. JHolo

JHolo @ 704. We are definitely going to hell in a handbag, by KF's metric. Hardly anyone believes in god, first to give women the vote, had a number of women prime ministers and heads of state, LGTBQ friendly from way back (including first country to have a transgender MP I believe), very liberal towards sexuality and sex. We are on an express elevator straight to hell! Funnily enough, it feels like the opposite... TimR

At least 4 people were killed in a Tulsa, Oklahoma, hospital campus shooting, police say https://apple.news/A_NNxmXOLQCKXtTSkdKQQ-g JHolo

JHolo: New Zealand NZ's murder rate is 1.5. Not bad. But two states in the USA beat it, New Hampshire and Maine, and both have extremely lax gun laws. Vermont and Idaho are a close 3rd and 4th, also with very lax gun laws. Paxx

Paxx: Now do a map that correlates gun laws with murder rates, and things look a lot different.

Ok.

The vast majority of states with the most gun homicides are states that score a 3 or higher for gun-friendliness,[5 is the highest gun friendliness score] https://www.criminalattorneycincinnati.com/comparing-gun-control-measures-to-gun-related-homicides-by-state/

JHolo

JHolo: Texas, Florida and Virginia are the three states with the most registered weapons. These three states were home to 50% of the 14 deadliest mass shootings. Texas, Florida and Virginia all have a murder rate of about 6/100k, right around the national mean. Equal to Thunder Bay Canada. Far less than D.C. and Puerto Rico which have murder rates of 28 and 16, respectively. Twenty states in the USA have a lesser murder rate than Saskatchwan, Nanavut and Manitoba, and most of them have lax gun laws. Of the 10 lowest murder rates in the USA, 7 of the states have lax gun laws. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_intentional_homicide_rate Murder matters. Variables matter. Paxx

Jacinda Arden’s speech to Harvard. How come I get the feeling that KF would disagree with everything she says and that New Zealand is heading to hell in a hand basket. https://youtu.be/YlMnx-cp7rY JHolo

JHolo: States with tougher gun laws have fewer gun deaths. A worthless stat without digging into all the relevant variables. Now do a map that correlates gun laws with murder rates, and things look a lot different. For example, New Hampshire has the lowest murder rate in the USA, one death per 100k, and has the most lax gun laws in the country. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_New_Hampshire Mexico has practically no private gun ownership and their murder rate is six times higher than the USA. Switzerland has high gun ownership and a 0.5/100k murder rate. Statistics are fun. Paxx

Texas, Florida and Virginia are the three states with the most registered weapons. These three states were home to 50% of the 14 deadliest mass shootings. JHolo

86 of the mass shootings in the United States between 1982 and May 2022 involved weapons which were obtained legally; a clear majority. Only 16 incidents involved guns that were obtained illegally.

JHolo

And, as Jerry often says, follow the money. https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/800/cpsprodpb/89E2/production/_117889253_spending_01_v3-nc.png.webp JHolo

An international comparison of gun-related killings as a % of all homicides https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/800/cpsprodpb/AB92/production/_124122934_gun_related_crimes_640-2x-nc_updated.png.webp JHolo

Relatd, he is a capital historical case of nihilism, and materially contributed to the ruin of Athens; also being wealthy showing that nihilism is not a matter of what poor people are reduced to. That speaks to the nihilism challenge at the core of the sickness of our civilisation, which includes as one consequence the rise of movements of mass murder of various sorts. KF PS, Ironically, you are trying to zero out history. kairosfocus

JH, in this region, before one may be a key officer of a financial institution, s/he must pass a test by which s/he is deemed a fit and proper person. That's just for money. When we turn to matters of life and death and security of the person, I would think that a government that acted under false colour of law and enacted a decree under which 63 million of living posterity were snuffed out, resisting all remonstrance and attempts at reform has amply demonstrated that it is not fit and proper to be trusted with life, death, security and defence. Indeed, the same supreme court has ruled that policing agencies and agents have no legal duty to protect members of the public. Under those circumstances alone, one would be merely prudent not to trust such a government on these matters. Multiply by resisting measures to follow Israel's success and harden schools etc adequately, repeatedly standing down as slaughter proceeds inside the cordon, and the like. Add, gross and deceitful misrepresentation, even as to the number of school mass shootings, one is bad but gross exaggeration fails the credibility test and raises questions of panicking and herding the public in ways that cannot meet the light of day. In that context it is obvious that there is no reason to trust the government with these matters. KF kairosfocus

https://twitter.com/bettemidler/status/1531821907900760064?s=21&t=0cNKe8Fjvyr23Sy0kC0YHA JHolo

States with tougher gun laws have fewer gun deaths. https://fournews-assets-prod-s3-ew1-nmprod.s3.amazonaws.com/media/2022/05/0.2-Gun-laws-vs-deaths.jpg JHolo

KF at 693, He's dead. No one knows who he is or how that will help deal with mass shootings today. relatd

Relatd, Alcibiades was one of the wealthiest in Athens. KF kairosfocus

KF at 691, Families first. The bedrock of civilization. One man and one woman have children and teach them how to live correctly. Those born into fatherless homes in poverty, in decaying neighborhoods with few job prospects, have few options left to them. The poor have been with us for 2,400 years. relatd

Relatd, please read the article, I disagree on points but they have a point about the mindset. No, I am not saying some MK Ultra operative is brainwashing and giving guns to his wind up toys. I am saying, there is a pattern reported by researchers and it leads to suicide extended into suicidal attacks that effect mass murder. Other things suggest waves influenced by media exposure. There was a tapering off of serial killers after that wave as this one picked up. There are much wider signs and effects of nihilism, there are clear worldview associations for 2400 years and more. We need to fix a very sick civilisation. KF kairosfocus

LCD at 689, I'm a Leftist? But I'm right-handed. relatd

Relatd It appears English is not your first language. Who said anything about Leftists knowing the solution to mass shootings? I didn’t.

You are a leftist. Talking much ,saying nothing. ;) Lieutenant Commander Data

KF at 686, Your analysis of me is totally off base. We've never met in person so I am sitting in a black room with a keyboard. Do you understand? Man is, and has been, manipulated for a long time. The purposeful damage to the stability of families I watched happen as it happened. The turning of some women against men. The creation of a "Sexual Revolution" that was all about sex, not love. The invention of so-called "Alternate Lifestyles." I saw all of this as it happened. The continued denigration of fathers and women purposely raising their children with no father present. And when the child asks, "Where is my father?" What does the mother say? I watched all of this happen as it happened. The damage to society and following generations has been great. The solution is strong families. They are still there. And they will defend their children against the current propaganda being taught to them. For people suffering despair, explain something to me. Are these people the same people who commit mass shootings? Why? Do you believe some strangers give them guns and tell them to go out and shoot people? I don't. The truth is always the truth but it must be repeated daily to combat the lies being spread among the people. Yes, there are agitators who want to see people fighting among themselves. I've seen that and avoided it by not participating. Finally, the wealthy owners of the internet want more money and want us to spend a lot of time in what they call The Metaverse. It's being built right now. It's a joke but it's being called the next big thing. We will work there and play there and live there as long as we can pay for it. Not me. relatd

The gravest indictment of the Uvalde police just got published. They should have known a violent shooter was on the loose in their town before the murderer entered the school. The murderer shot his grandmother and it was reported to the police. The Robb school is a two minute drive from where Ramos lived but he did not immediately enter the school. The town is 15 minutes wide and police cars should have been doing a massive search before the kids were shot. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10871407/Neighbor-Uvalde-shooter-says-wounded-grandmother-ran-home-shot-face.html jerry

Relatd, your shift away from substance is a strong sign that you have no cogent answers. There is research on the table, there are issues, dynamics and worldview level considerations on the table. Those are what need to be analysed. If you object to the research on mass shooters, why, substantially ______ If you think nihilism is not as IEP summarised tell us why _______ If you disagree with thinkers from Plato on on evolutionary materialism and its worldview and cultural impacts, why ______ If you think nihilism's zero-ing out would not contribute to anomie, despair and destructive impulses why ______. If you think it has not been a factor in communism, nazism, and many trends tell us why ______ . If you think nihilism is not connected to radical relativisation of and hyperskepticism towards knowledge claims etc tell us why _____ And if you think despair, depression, zero-ing out of values and knowledge etc would not work with traumatised to radicalise into extended suicide, as the researchers document tell us why ___ Otherwise, you are simply being irresponsibly hyperskeptical without excuse. And, frankly, I only learned of the documented connexions when ET pointed the research out. Though, long ago Schaeffer pointed out consequences of thinking man is a zero. KF kairosfocus

LCD at 684, It appears English is not your first language. Who said anything about Leftists knowing the solution to mass shootings? I didn't. relatd

Relatd Call out the National Guard. Arrest all gang leaders and dope dealers. Put them into low-cost housing on an unused military base. Give them work. Or do you think poverty is not a problem?

:lol: You mean leftists don't know how to resolve a simpler problem in their backyard where is already a gun control(where die more people than in mass shootings) but they know what is the solution to mass shootings ? I guess the same situation is with yourself. You are so smart and full of solutions but nobody notice that . Sad . Lieutenant Commander Data

"It seems there is an update to the door story." I believe in Evolution Of News Stories, such that the story then doesn't look like the story currently or in the future. And really, abrupt changes do appear in the record, so gradualism is falsified. Andrew asauber

It seems there is an update to the door story. The teacher kicked the rock propping it open but it did not lock. That's a do a double check issue if that is so. kairosfocus

Andrew at 680, At this rate, I calculate it will take 120 years for me to be as repetitive as a certain person here. relatd

"So repetitive comments solve problems? Last I checked, no." Relatd, You've gotten a little repetitive yourself. Andrew asauber

Jerry at 677, KF a font of information? More like a font of repetitive repetitiveness. "nothing to disagree with"? So repetitive comments solve problems? Last I checked, no. relatd

LCD at 676, "leftists governed cities"? There are Leftists? Fine. Call out the National Guard. Arrest all gang leaders and dope dealers. Put them into low-cost housing on an unused military base. Give them work. Or do you think poverty is not a problem? I've driven through Detroit. The main street, Woodward, looked like the main street of any large American city at one time. Today, it is strewn with empty buildings. Drive off about a hundred feet to any residential street and this is what you will see: An area that looks like it's been carpet bombed. Burned out houses, mattresses and other debris lying in random places. By the way, "virtue signaling" is on my Terms To Never Use List. Outrage is now only for Pavlov's dog. relatd

No mind reading, please

I have no idea what you think of books. You miss the obvious since you are new commenting here. In the last three years the sum total of Kf’s comments could fill an encyclopedia, or a book of 10,000 pages. Mostly repetitive. For example, there are probably a thousand comments mentioning Cicero and they are not short. Nearly everyone attacks Kf because of the length and repetitiveness of his comments even if there is nothing to disagree with. Given that, they are rarely wrong in content. He is a fount of information. Kf believes civilization is rapidly disintegrating. I happen to agree so for years. I can point one to why. And it’s not curable. Ranting against the inevitable is not useful.

So repetitive comments solve problems

No one said they do. There is no solution that will work. That is what I said above. The modern world flowed from freedom and Christian morality. When both are applied a better world appeared. Now, both are under attack and one is pretty much gone. jerry

Relatd So, you’re going to equate gang-related shootings where a clear cause and effect relationship exists, and a school shooting where defenseless individuals are gunned down for no apparent reason? You have no argument.

:lol: We already know how will look US without guns[watch how many die in leftists governed cities where gun control is in place!]. So they can't manage to resolve the actions that are predictable in certain areas/environments with known fellons but you think the very unpredictable and rare actions (like mass shootings) can be stopped easier applying same measures like in Chicago? Virtue signalling much? In 1 day 51 people shot in Chicago. No outrage? 51 people shot over Memorial Day weekend in Chicago, the most violent in five years I guess CNN or other clowns are not interested, because is "the wrong" narrative. Lieutenant Commander Data

Article, cf 542 Book, The Violence Project: How to Stop a Mass Shooting Epidemic, at Amazon I obviously do not endorse across the board, but we here see some key influence factors. kairosfocus

Jerry at 673, No mind reading, please. I was not mocking books. I was pointing out that KF should publish his thoughts in book form before his posts end up longer than War and Peace. relatd

seem interested in books

No! Just the opposite. He’s mocking books and long comments. jerry

Relatd, you obviously failed to look at the research reported upthread. BTW, bullying, unsurprisingly, is one form of the trauma in question, and is also worth looking at as a serious issue. Nihilism, of course, is strongly connected to destructive impulses, to despair and to depression, the precursor to suicide. KF PS. 547 https://uncommondescent.com/off-topic/defend-the-children/#comment-756600 there is a book by the researchers, as you seem interested in books. kairosfocus

KF at 670, Nihilism... click, nihilism..., click, nihilism... ... ... So, people planning suicides should rum out and buy a few AR-15s and a couple extra clips. Right. relatd

Relatd, not interested to do so just now -- I could set up a pdf pamphlet if I wished, but there is an issue on the table that needs to be addressed; needs to be worked through. It turns out, per research, that mass shootings . . . so, likely many other mass attacks . . . are extended suicides, associated with and shaped by nihilism and trauma and expressing the destructive impulses of nihilism. Nihilism is also implicated in a lot of other not so happy things in our world. So, this is a -- not necessarily the -- root cause to be addressed. Why are there ever so many caught up in it and where it leads, and how can it be answered. KF kairosfocus

KF, Go ahead and write the book, OK? Just copy and paste the stuff you've posted. Publish it. Fer cryin' out loud... Do it! relatd

ET, a most inauspicious number. The M14 family, similar to many hunting rifles, fires a -308 or 7.62 x 51 similar to the older 30-06. Such kick harder, and were found to be hard to control in full automatic M14s, hence the M16. The Ruger Mini14 is related and comes in .223 calibre but is less popular than the Armalite family AR15. For that matter back up at 30 I point to the bullpup format and the Israeli Tavor. KF kairosfocus

F/N: Unbelievable, in California: https://www.breitbart.com/education/2022/06/01/california-state-senate-passes-bill-to-allow-schools-not-to-report-threats/

The California State Senate has passed a bill that would allow schools not to report threats or attacks against employees or officials to law enforcement, despite the ongoing national shock and outrage over the Uvalde, Texas, mass school shooting. The bill, SB 1273, introduced by State Sen. Steven Bradford (D-Los Angeles), passed easily last Thursday — just two days after the Uvalde shooting, in which an 18-year-old gunman murdered 19 children and two teachers in an elementary school. The bill repeals a provision of existing law that requires that “whenever any employee of a school district or county superintendent of schools is attacked, assaulted, or physically threatened by any pupil, the employee and any person under whose direction or supervision the employee is employed who has knowledge of the incident are required to promptly report the incident to specified law enforcement authorities.” SB 1273 would make such reports to law enforcement voluntary. Democrats are pushing for gun control rather than increased law enforcement at schools, saying the latter removes political pressure for restrictions on firearms and causes harm to minority students. [--> the race card, and the agenda] On Tuesday, as part of that pressure campaign, students at some schools in Los Angeles staged walkouts to protest gun violence.

How could they imagine this could be helpful? KF PS, I clip:

This bill would delete the acts referenced above from the category of acts for which the principal or the principal’s designee is required to notify the appropriate law enforcement authorities, as described above. The bill would also exclude from this notification requirement a violation involving certain instruments, such as an instrument that expels metallic projectiles, a spot marker gun, a razor blade, or a box cutter. The bill would only require notification where notification would be consistent with the above-described referral requirement under the federal Gun-Free Schools Act. The bill would also make related conforming changes.

Box cutters of course were used in 2001 in the worst terrorist attack in US history. kairosfocus

It is hilarious how the anti-gun people rail against the AR15. Yet the M1A fires a more powerful bullet and can fire at the same rate as the AR15. The Ruger Mini-14 fires the same bullet as the AR15 and at the same rate of fire. No one is railing against those 2 rifles. ET

JH, there is a substantial issue on the table, nihilism. Hitler, of course notoriously represents it, as do Stalin and Mao etc, however it is far more widespread. The researchers on mass shootings identify it as involved, further identifying that the behaviour is a form of suicide. To deal with the phenomenon, we therefore need to address nihilism and its roots, which are ancient and modern. Your answer as opposed to rhetorical side step is ___________ . KF kairosfocus

Relatd: Playing the Hitler card? Lame. Be original.

JHolo: I agree. It is not very original. The Hitler card is usually limited to those arguing for objective morality.

And then as sure as night follows day, and proving my point:

KF: PS, pointing to the research that, albeit flawed, shows that lawless nihilism and despair are keys to understanding mass shooting as extended suicide, is not mindless appeal to Hitler. Hitler’s regime, of course, is one of the main examples of nihilism in power with modern technology so is historically relevant.

JHolo

So, who dares stand in the breach, in defence of civilisation and the first right, life? Yes, this is a civilisational Stalingrad. kairosfocus

STEP 4: The Ciceronian first duties of responsible reason and first, built in law If we are to defeat nihilism, we have to restore moral knowledge and through the principle of justice connect it to core first law so sound governance and government. BTW, the presence of nihilism as a crooked yardstick readily explains the resistance to the logic involved. But we already know nihilism is the problem not the solution, and that it is utterly incoherent as one cannot know that knowledge is impossible or empty, nor can one meaningfully claim that all is meaningless; nor can one soundly deny that it is a self referentially self defeating fallacious objective truth claim on the subject of morality, to deny objectivity and knowability of moral truths. So, Cicero:

—Marcus [in de Legibus, introductory remarks,. C1 BC, being Cicero himself]: . . . the subject of our present discussion . . . comprehends the universal principles of equity and law. In such a discussion therefore on the great moral law of nature, the practice of the civil law can occupy but an insignificant and subordinate station. For according to our idea, we shall have to explain the true nature of moral justice, which is congenial and correspondent [36]with the true nature of man.

[--> Note, how justice and our built in nature as a morally governed class of creatures are highlighted; thus framing the natural law frame: recognising built-in law that we do not create nor can we repeal, which then frames a sound understanding of justice. Without such an anchor, law inevitably reduces to the sort of ruthless, nihilistic might- and- manipulation- make- "right,"- "truth,"- "knowledge,"- "law"- and- "justice"- etc power struggle and chaos Plato warned against in The Laws Bk X.]

We shall have to examine those principles of legislation by which all political states should be governed. And last of all, shall we have to speak of those laws and customs which are framed for the use and convenience of particular peoples, which regulate the civic and municipal affairs of the citizens, and which are known by the title of civil laws. Quintus [his real-life brother]. —You take a noble view of the subject, my brother, and go to the fountain–head of moral truth, in order to throw light on the whole science of jurisprudence: while those who confine their legal studies to the civil law too often grow less familiar with the arts of justice than with those of litigation. Marcus. —Your observation, my Quintus, is not quite correct. It is not so much the science of law that produces litigation, as the ignorance of it, (potius ignoratio juris litigiosa est quam scientia) . . . . With respect to the true principle of justice, many learned men have maintained that it springs from Law. I hardly know if their opinion be not correct, at least, according to their own definition; for “Law (say they) is the highest reason [--> centrality of reason], implanted in [--> esp. our rational, responsible] nature, which prescribes those things which ought to be done, and forbids the contrary.” [--> core of justice] This, they think, is apparent from the converse of the proposition; because this same reason, when it [37]is confirmed and established in men’s minds, is the law of all their actions. [--> a pervasive so self evident (as, undeniable) first principle] They therefore conceive that the voice of [--> sound!] conscience is a law, that moral prudence[--> including, warrant on right reason] is a law, whose operation is to urge us to good actions, and restrain us from evil ones. They think, too, that the Greek name for law (NOMOS), which is derived from NEMO, to distribute, implies the very nature of the thing, that is, to give every man his due. [--> this implies a definition of justice as the due balance of rights, freedoms and responsibilities] For my part, I imagine that the moral essence of law is better expressed by its Latin name, (lex), which conveys the idea of selection or discrimination. According to the Greeks, therefore, the name of law implies an equitable distribution of goods: according to the Romans, an equitable discrimination between good and evil. The true definition of law should, however, include both these characteristics. And this being granted as an almost self–evident proposition, the origin of justice is to be sought in the divine law of eternal and immutable morality. This indeed is the true energy of nature, the very soul and essence of wisdom, the test of virtue and vice.

We need to have the decency to acknowledge that this frame of thought actually built civilisation, including modern constitutional democracy. See the US DoI, 1776. Have the common courtesy to respect the moral and intellectual courage of men who acknowledged principles they knew rebuked their own lives and the compromises they had to make to win independence. That is how corrosive nihilism is. Now, we may freely systematise:

We may readily identify at least seven branch- on- which- we- all- sit (so, inescapable, pervasive), first principle . . . first duties of reason and first universal laws written into our rational, responsible nature and forming morally driven governing principles of reason, high and low alike: "Inescapable," as they are so antecedent to and pervasive in our reasoning that even the objector implicitly appeals to their legitimate authority; inescapable, so first truths of reason, i.e. they are self-evidently true and binding. Namely, Ciceronian first duties,

1st - to truth, 2nd - to right reason, 3rd - to prudence [including warrant], 4th - to sound conscience, 5th - to neighbour; so also, 6th - to fairness and 7th - to justice [ . . .] xth - etc.

Likewise, we observe again, that the objector to such duties cannot but appeal to them to give their objections rhetorical traction (i.e. s/he must imply or acknowledge what we are, morally governed, duty-bound creatures to gain any persuasive effect). While also those who try to prove such cannot but appeal to the said principles too. So, these principles are a branch on which we all must sit, including objectors and those who imagine they are to be proved and try. That is, these are manifestly first principles of rational, responsible, honest, conscience guided liberty and so too a built-in framework of law; yes, core natural law of human nature. Reason, inescapably, is morally governed. Of course, there is a linked but not equivalent pattern: bounded, error-prone rationality often tied to ill will and stubbornness or even closed mindedness; that’s why the study of right reason has a sub-study on fallacies and errors. That we sometimes seek to evade duties or may make inadvertent errors does not overthrow such first duties of reason, which instead help us to detect and correct errors, as well as to expose our follies. Perhaps, a negative form will help to clarify, for cause we find to be at best hopelessly error-riddled, those who are habitually untruthful, fallacious and/or irrational, imprudent, fail to soundly warrant claims, show a benumbed or dead conscience [i.e. sociopathy and/or highly machiavellian tendencies], dehumanise and abuse others, are unfair and unjust. At worst, such are utterly dangerous, destructive,or even ruthlessly, demonically lawless. Such built-in . . . thus, universal . . . law, then, is not invented by parliaments, kings or courts, nor can these principles and duties be abolished by such; they are recognised, often implicitly as an indelible part of our evident nature. Hence, "natural law," coeval with our humanity, famously phrased in terms of "self-evident . . . rights . . . endowed by our Creator" in the US Declaration of Independence, 1776. (Cf. Cicero in De Legibus, c. 50 BC.) Indeed, it is on this framework that we can set out to soundly understand and duly balance rights, freedoms and duties; which is justice, the pivot of law. The legitimate main task of government, then, is to uphold and defend the civil peace of justice through sound community order reflecting the built in, intelligible law of our nature. Where, as my right implies your duty a true right is a binding moral claim to be respected in life, liberty, honestly aquired property, innocent reputation etc. To so justly claim a right, one must therefore demonstrably be in the right. Likewise, Aristotle long since anticipated Pilate's cynical "what is truth?": truth says of what is, that it is; and of what is not, that it is not. [Metaphysics, 1011b, C4 BC.] Simple in concept, but hard to establish on the ground; hence -- in key part -- the duties to right reason, prudence, fairness etc. Thus, too, we may compose sound civil law informed by that built-in law of our responsibly, rationally free morally governed nature; from such, we may identify what is unsound or false thus to be reformed or replaced even though enacted under the colour and solemn ceremonies of law. The first duties, also, are a framework for understanding and articulating the corpus of built-in law of our morally governed nature, antecedent to civil laws and manifest our roots in the Supreme Law-giver, the inherently good, utterly wise and just creator-God, the necessary (so, eternal), maximally great being at the root of reality.

This is the great hole in our intellectual culture, the weak point through which the forces of nihilism have broken through and are fanning out in our rear, spreading chaos and ruin. It is time to pinch off the breakthrough. KF kairosfocus

STEP 3, some first truths in general (starting with logic). We can start with a C1 Rhetoric 101 example, from a part of our classical heritage:

1 Cor 14: 7 If even lifeless instruments, such as the flute or the harp, do not give distinct notes, how will anyone know what is played? 8 And if the bugle gives an indistinct sound, who will get ready for battle? 9 So with yourselves, if with your tongue you utter speech that is not intelligible, how will anyone know what is said? For you will be speaking into the air. 10 There are doubtless many different languages in the world, and none is without meaning, 11 but if I do not know the meaning of the language, I will be a foreigner to the speaker and the speaker a foreigner to me. [ESV]

That is, the mere fact of meaningful music much less speech demonstrates the pervasiveness of perhaps the most fundamental first principle, that of distinct identity.

LAW 1, DISTINCT IDENTITY, LOI: A is itself, distinct from ~A, in light of its core characteristics. (And yes, this ties to logic of being so also logic of structure and quantity thence the power of mathematics, it is seemingly simple but utterly non trivial. Those who try to deny it are forced to use it just to communicate their objection. So, they undercut their objection. LOI is an undeniable, generally pervasive first principle.) _________________ COR 1, LAW OF NON CONTRADICTION, LNC: no distinct x in any world, W, can be both A and ~A. COR 2, LAW OF THE EXCLUDED MIDDLE, LEM: Any distinct y in any world W will be A or ~A, but not both or neither.

We may go on to a weak form, undeniable principle of sufficient reason. Yes, things are this bad, when nihilists are shooting up elementary schools and sending the message that education itself is a target.

WEAK FORM PRINCIPLE OF SUFFICIENT REASON, wPSR: Of any suggested z in any W, we may freely inquire of it, why it is, or is not, or may never be, and hope to find a reasonable answer. That is, logic of being is relevant to what is or is not, or cannot be. _________________ COR 3: CAUSE: An entity c that is contingent (would exist in at least one world but not in all) can be explained on cause, i.e. antecedent conditions, entities and circumstances that enable it to be and sustain its being. Standard case, a fire, dependent on the fire tetrahedron: heat, fuel, oxidiser, uninterfered with combustion chain reaction. In Fluorine, even a brick can burn with white heat.' COR 4: NECESSARY BEING, an entity n that is necessary, is present in any world W. That is, it is independent of prior cause, cannot but exist in any world and is part of the framework for any world to exist. Consider, the number two, which already lurks in the principle of distinct identity. Of course the God of ethical theism is a serious candidate necessary being. COR 5: A serious candidate necessary being either is impossible of being [as a Euclidean plane square circle is] or is possible, existing in some world W; but if a serious candidate not contingent, so framework to any world and thus also present in all worlds including our own. (This is central to the universal power of core Mathematics.) COR 6: IMPOSSIBLE BEINGS. A candidate being i, such as a euclidean plane square circle, is impossible of being if its core characteristics are in mutual contradiction. For example squarishness and circularity in the euclidean plane in an entity.

Believe it or not, these are contested and denied or dismissed by many. To do so, they have to use these same principles. Not that such incoherence will even make them hesitate. We now see exposed some roots of nihilism, which we have to fight. KF kairosfocus

STEP 2, Rehabilitating objective moral knowledge

Kindly, ponder the very carefully worded definitions from Collins English Dictionary [CED], where high quality dictionaries record and report correct usage:

SUBJECTIVE: subjective adj 1. belonging to, proceeding from, or relating to the mind of the thinking subject and not the nature of the object being considered [--> in short, in the contemplating subject, not necessarily the contemplated observed or abstract object such as the null set {} --> 0] 2. of, relating to, or emanating from a person’s emotions, prejudices, etc: subjective views. [--> this highlights the error-pronenes of our subjectivity, thus need for filtering to achieve adequate reliability] OBJECTIVE: objective adj 1. (Philosophy) existing independently of perception or an individual’s conceptions: are there objective moral values?. [AmHD helps: 1. a. Existing independent of or external to the mind;] {--> independent of particularly should be seen as inherent in the object, observable or abstract and that on grounds that confer reliability} 2. undistorted by emotion or personal bias [--> highlighting error proneness] 3. of or relating to actual and external phenomena as opposed to thoughts, feelings, etc.[ --> this sense especially relates to observable, concrete things like a tree, and again points to our error proneness, however for cause something like the null set and related Math is objective though abstract, there being no physical location for the null set]

Dictionaries of course summarise from usage by known good speakers and writers, forming a body of recorded knowledge on language. So, we may freely conclude that:

objectivity does not mean empirical, tangible external/physical object or the like, it can include items contemplated by the mind such as mathematical entities etc and which due to adequate warrant are reasonably INDEPENDENT of our individual or collective error-prone cognition, opinions, delusions, biases and distortions etc.

Objectivity, is established as a key concept that addresses our error proneness by provision of adequate warrant that gives good reason to be confident that the item or state of affairs etc contemplated is real not a likely point of delusion. Yes, degree of warrant is a due consideration and in many cases common to science etc is defeasible but credible. In certain key cases, e.g. actual self evidence, it is utterly certain.

We need that, to even begin to understand the possibility and nature of objective moral knowledge. Which needs to be brought back into the centre of our knowledge, if we are to escape consequences of nihilistic despair and its impulse to destroy.

Objective moral truth is widely denied in our day, for many it isn't even a remotely plausible possibility. And yet, as we will shortly see, it is undeniably true. This marginalisation of moral knowledge, in extreme form, is a key thesis of the nihilism that haunts our civilisation, which we must detect, expose to the light of day, correct and dispel, in defence of civilisation and human dignity. Let a proposition be represented by x M = x is a proposition asserting that some state of affairs regarding right conduct, duty/ought, virtue/honour, good/evil etc (i.e. the subject is morality) is the case [--> truth claim] O = x is objective and generally knowable, being adequately warranted as credibly true [--> notice, generally knowable per adequate warrant, as opposed to widely acknowledged] It is claimed, cultural relativism thesis: S= ~[O*M] = 1

[ NB: Plato, The Laws, Bk X, c 360 BC, in the voice of Athenian Stranger: "[Thus, the Sophists and other opinion leaders etc -- c 430 BC on, hold] that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made." This IMPLIES the Cultural Relativism Thesis, by highlighting disputes (among an error-prone and quarrelsome race!), changing/varied opinions, suggesting that dominance of a view in a place/time is a matter of balance of factions/rulings, and denying that there is an intelligible, warranted natural law. Of course, subjectivism then reduces the scale of "community" to one individual. He continues, "These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might . . . " [--> door opened to nihilistic factionalism]]

However, the subject of S is M, it therefore claims to be objectively true, O, and is about M where it forbids O-status to any claim of type-M so, ~[O*M] cannot be true per self referential incoherence [--> reductio ad absurdum] ++++++++++ ~[O*M] = 0 [as self referential and incoherent cf above] ~[~[O*M]] = 1 [the negation is therefore true] __________ O*M = 1 [condensing not of not] where, M [moral truth claim] So too, O [if an AND is true, each sub proposition is separately true] That is, there UNDENIABLY are objective moral truths; and a first, self-evident one is that ~[O*M] is false. The set is non empty, it is not vacuous and we cannot play empty set square of opposition games with it. That’s important.

Let us return to civilisational sanity. KF kairosfocus

STEP 1: Objective Knowledge is not only possible but demonstrably undeniable.

The truth claim, “there are no [gernerally knowable] objective truths regarding any matter,” roughly equivalent to, “knowledge is inescapably only subjective,” is an error. Which, happily, can be recognised and corrected. Often, such error is presented and made to seem plausible through the diversity of opinions assertion, with implication that none have or are in a position to have a generally warranted, objective conclusion. This, in extreme form, is a key thesis of the nihilism that haunts our civilisation, which we must detect, expose to the light of day, correct and dispel, in defence of civilisation and human dignity. (NB: Sometimes the blind men and the elephant fable is used to make it seem plausible, overlooking the narrator's implicit claim to objectivity.) Now, to set things aright, let’s symbolise: ~[O*G] with * as AND. It intends to describe not mere opinion but warranted, credible truth about knowledge in general. So, ~[O*G] is self referential as it is clearly about subject matter G, and is intended to be a well warranted objectively true claim. But it is itself therefore a truth claim about knowledge in general intended to be taken as objectively true, which is what it tries to deny as a possibility. So, it is self contradictory and necessarily false PHASE I: Let a proposition be represented by x G = x is a proposition asserting that some state of affairs regarding some matter in general including history, science, the secrets of our hearts, morality etc, is the case O = x is objective and knowable, being adequately warranted as credibly true} PHASE II: It is claimed, S= ~[O*G] = 1, 1 meaning true However, the subject of S is G, it therefore claims to be objectively true, O and is about G where it forbids O-status to any claim of type G so, ~[O*G] cannot be true per self referential incoherence ++++++++++ PHASE III: The Algebra, translating from S: ~[O*G] = 0 [as self referential and incoherent cf above] ~[~[O*G]] = 1 [the negation is therefore true] __________ O*G = 1 [condensing not of not] where, G [general truth claim including moral ones of course] So too, O [if an AND is true, each sub proposition is separately true] CONCLUSION: That is, there are objective moral truths; and a first, self evident one is that ~[O*G] is false, ~[O*G] = 0. The set of knowable objective truths in general -- and embracing those that happen to be about states of affairs in regard to right conduct etc -- is non empty, it is not vacuous and we cannot play empty set square of opposition games with it. That’s important. Also, there are many particular objective general and moral truths that are adequately warranted to be regarded as reliable. Try, Napoleon was once a European monarch and would be conqueror. Try, Jesus of Nazareth is a figure of history. Try, it is wrong to torture babies for fun, and more. Ours is a needlessly confused age, heading for trouble.

Let us return to civilisational sanity. KF kairosfocus

PPPS, now we can understand why so many objectors are so determined to find that design thought threatens what they imagine to be settled science and the progressive cultural and policy agendas they enable. Well, we are at Fair Havens and someone -- even an appeals prisoner in chains -- needs to point out the suicidal folly of trying to sail in the time when the first big winter storms become increasingly likely. kairosfocus

PPS, this then brings back to focus a part of the ongoing series on logic and first principles, as nihilism is an expression of radical skepticism about reality, truth, warrant, knowledge, moral knowledge. So, it is a relevant part of the wider movement of design thought as a return to civilisational sanity -- nihilism is patently demonically, criminally, bizarrely, perversely, irretrievably insane -- that we refocus that we can responsibly access, analyse and know truth in general and moral truths including those of first built in law. Crooked yardstick, misanthropic, anti civilisational thinking must be detected, exposed like a vampire to the light of day and permanently broken. Then, we can return to sanity. kairosfocus

PS, pointing to the research that, albeit flawed, shows that lawless nihilism and despair are keys to understanding mass shooting as extended suicide, is not mindless appeal to Hitler. Hitler's regime, of course, is one of the main examples of nihilism in power with modern technology so is historically relevant. Of course, part of the crooked yardstick thinking is dismissal of inconvenient history, arguments and those who point it out. At this level, showing how the indoctrinated, credentialled public has been manipulated to think. Even more relevant, is Provine's confession on the roots of mass nihilism:

Naturalistic evolution has clear consequences that Charles Darwin understood perfectly. 1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent

[==> key theses of nihilism. Citing the just linked IEP: "Nihilism is the belief that all values are baseless and that nothing can be known or communicated. It is often associated with extreme pessimism and a radical skepticism that condemns existence. A true nihilist would believe in nothing, have no loyalties, and no purpose other than, perhaps, an impulse to destroy. While few philosophers would claim to be nihilists, nihilism is most often associated with Friedrich Nietzsche who argued that its corrosive effects would eventually destroy all moral, religious, and metaphysical convictions and precipitate the greatest crisis in human history."]

. . . . The first 4 implications are so obvious to modern naturalistic evolutionists that I will spend little time defending them. Human free will, however, is another matter. Even evolutionists have trouble swallowing that implication. I will argue that humans are locally determined systems that make choices. They have, however, no free will [--> without responsible freedom, mind, reason and morality alike disintegrate into grand delusion, hence self-referential incoherence and self-refutation. But that does not make such fallacies any less effective in the hands of clever manipulators] . . . [1998 Darwin Day Keynote Address, U of Tenn -- and yes, that is significant i/l/o the Scopes Trial, 1925]

In short, evolutionary materialistic scientism is an extension of the ruinous evolutionary materialism and linked sophist thinking and factions that created ancient nihilism as a movement that captured power and then ruined Athens, the first great democratic experiment; in the context of the Peloponnesian war. I know, I know, part of this is, history is victory propaganda and bunk. Another cynical, nihilistic crooked yardstick. The answer is to note that human nature is discernibly a constant making understanding the past a key to soundly acting in the present to build a better future. Where, actually, Plato and Thucydides etc wrote from the bitter lessons of needless defeat triggered by hubris, marches of folly led by the nihilists and more. Alcibiades is a key lesson by biography in this. Coming forward, the Jacobins, Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, Mao and others in our time are also lessons. A general counter to nihilism against history is: the sound lessons of history were bought with blood, treasure and tears; those who neglect, ignore or dismiss such lessons, doom themselves to pay the same coin over and over and over again. Where, we know mass shootings express nihilism through extended suicide, impulse to destroy oneself and targetted others in a blaze of media-attracting infamy. They also seem to be a follow on wave to serial killers, which was the similarly surging phenomenon of the 70's to 90's. Media amplification spread a follow on destructive idea to an alienated segment of society. So, part of the rescue of civilisation from nihilism is to expose the incoherence and nihilism of evolutionary materialism, never mind its current scientific pretensions and the associated mantras about so called settled science. If it's settled it isn't science; science is inductive and necessarily open ended. Where, the pessimistic induction reminds us that explanatory entities are never warranted as true only as so far regarded as empirically reliable. And frankly, sometimes not even that. What happens when nihilism rules the roost in institutional science, education, the media and the technocracy? Hint: look around you. kairosfocus

JH, when Britain was in the hole, post Dunkirk, it was American guns, public and private, that made the difference. The rebel republic was also the key locus of hope for eventual victory. At the time in question, c 1940 - 41, the USSR was ALLIED to Nazi Germany, its ideological kissing cousin. Russia invaded Poland from the E shortly after Germany did so from every other direction, took Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia, attacked Finland and more. Russian oil and supplies as well as alliance allowed Germany to switch forces to its W and launch the Blitzkrieg. Within days, they broke through at Sedan and the French (the main allied army in the W) knew itself to be decisively defeated. Then Italy also struck, threatening Britain's Mediterranean pivot and the Suez Canal thus the main line to India where the Imperial Reserve was, the second British Army, the Indian Army. Absent the American factor, Britain's position was hopeless. As it was, many Americans thought it was, and it was the successful defence against the Luftwaffe that helped turn the tide even as the U Boat menace, greatly multiplied once Germany had France's Atlantic coast, posed the longer term threat of logistical starvation. It is not for nothing that the Americans set up a hemisphere defence scheme and arranged a swop of bases for fifty old but still functional destroyers. There was donation of stocks of weapons (including WW1 Enfield Rifles, a US Calibre version of a UK design the P14) and considerable private arms. The UK had been reduced to improvising a home guard and putting shotguns and slugs in many hands as armament, effectively reversion to muskets. And more, long before full engagement in the war. KF kairosfocus

SA: American guns stopped Hitler.

I wouldn’t underplay the effect of Soviet guns. Or British, or French,… JHolo

JHolo: My only fear is that one of my many American friends may get caught up in this stupidity and lose a child or loved one just so you can own a tool who’s only purpose is to destroy life. The number of defensive uses for guns in the USA is over 1/2 million per year. I have used a gun defensively three times in my life. I've also used them to kill wild boar in Texas (they have a boar problem) and for just plain fun shooting. It's very enjoyable. I've never used a gun to commit a murder or any crime. Most gun murders occur in very predictable areas of urban cities. If your friends don't live in those areas, then worrying about them getting murdered by firearm is beyond irrational. Chance of getting murdered by firearm, just a flat percent spread over the entire population: 0.0037142857% (Outside the urban areas, it's vanishingly small.) Chance of getting killed in a vehicle crash: 0.0142857143% You should be a lot more worried about your friends getting killed in a vehicle crash. But by all means, be irrational. Paxx

Relatd: Playing the Hitler card? Lame. Be original.

I agree. It is not very original. The Hitler card is usually limited to those arguing for objective morality.

Criminals? Are you sure?

Yup. I’m pretty sure that people involved in gang related shootings and those who shoot up a school are criminals. Unless you have a different definition of “criminal” than the one everyone else uses. JHolo

POLITICO: Can you take us through the profile of mass shooters that emerged from your research? Jillian Peterson: There’s this really consistent pathway. Early childhood trauma seems to be the foundation, whether violence in the home, sexual assault, parental suicides, extreme bullying. Then you see the build toward hopelessness, despair, isolation, self-loathing, oftentimes rejection from peers. That turns into a really identifiable crisis point where they’re acting differently. Sometimes they have previous suicide attempts. What’s different from traditional suicide is that the self-hate turns against a group. They start asking themselves, “Whose fault is this?” Is it a racial group or women or a religious group, or is it my classmates? The hate turns outward. There’s also this quest for fame and notoriety.

She mentions that she's raising two boys. She has figured out the cause, but not so much the solution. Young boys with an aggressive desire for revenge need that energy channeled. Our military is so messed up, that would otherwise be a good outlet but only causes more conflict (wars for containment and not for victory - as well as women-in-combat). The kids need a purpose and mission - something important and meaningful. Take pride in something, get the focus off of your own wounds and miseries. The suicide rate for men is almost 4 times more than for women. As she says there, mass violence is just suicidal motions turned outwards. The reasons for suicidal tendencies among young men should be well-understood but they aren't. The people in authority in schools and government just make it worse. Silver Asiatic

American guns stopped Hitler. Silver Asiatic

JH at 647 and 648, Playing the Hitler card? Lame. Be original. Criminals? Are you sure? This is about a school shooting. Look up the cost for an AR-15 along with ammo. relatd

Relatd: So, you’re going to equate gang-related shootings where a clear cause and effect relationship exists,

Criminals with easy access to guns.

and a school shooting where defenseless individuals are gunned down for no apparent reason?

By criminals with easy access to guns. Seems to me that there is a commonality that can be addressed if people are serious about reducing violent deaths. But there is obviously no appetite by the people in power to do this. JHolo

Relatd: Wars involve highly trained soldiers as opposed to lunatics with guns.

And sometimes wars are started by lunatics with access to guns. Hitler comes to mind. JHolo

LCD at 645, So, you're going to equate gang-related shootings where a clear cause and effect relationship exists, and a school shooting where defenseless individuals are gunned down for no apparent reason? You have no argument. relatd

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSChduprCjc&t=1357s Lieutenant Commander Data

LCD at 643, And this explains mass shootings? I think not. Wars involve highly trained soldiers as opposed to lunatics with guns. relatd

JHolo This is one of the many things that makes me proud of the US. Many countries would refuse to provide aid to their enemies. But the US has a long history of stepping up to provide aid to the citizens of their enemies during disasters. Because they have never believed in holding individuals hostage for the greed of their leaders

America Has Started 81% Of The Wars Since WWII . Lieutenant Commander Data

are you suggesting that I am not entitled to a personal opinion

Everyone is certainly entitled to their opinions. The question is are those opinions justified. Does the evidence and logic support the opinion? Not all opinions are equal in terms of truth. For example, I have never seen an anti ID person justify their opinion. I’ve only seen one honest one here and he eventually left the discussions. He was an evolutionary biologist. jerry

Relatd: During the Cold War, grain was sent to Russia because of a drought there.

This is one of the many things that makes me proud of the US. Many countries would refuse to provide aid to their enemies. But the US has a long history of stepping up to provide aid to the citizens of their enemies during disasters. Because they have never believed in holding individuals hostage for the greed of their leaders. JHolo

Jerry at 637, For those who believe every word coming from the mainstream media, a food shortage is a real possibility. A little research reveals a few facts. First, the U.S. government has paid farmers billions of dollars to grow nothing. Backup farms are needed in the U.S. should there be a drought in one part. During the Cold War, grain was sent to Russia because of a drought there. But very few look up these things. Some have allowed themselves to be programmed by Total Strangers to live only in the present instead of looking into what can be done, and what has been done. The U.S. sent grain as "foreign aid" to other countries throughout the Cold War. We have the ability to avoid any shortage. relatd

Paxx: A single variable reaction. Not helpful. And no attempt at multivariant cost/benefit.

What about a personal opinion don’t you understand? Or are you suggesting that I am not entitled to a personal opinion? I live about as far away from the US as I can get. Feel free to keep using guns to kill innocent people in exchange for a gun culture that the rest of the world thinks is insane. My only fear is that one of my many American friends may get caught up in this stupidity and lose a child or loved one just so you can own a tool who’s only purpose is to destroy life. JHolo

Leftists only care about Mass Shootings as far as it can push a gun confiscation. Daily killings in smaller doses (while actually a greater scale) don't hold much value for them. They need bigger hype for political action. Andrew asauber

Or, at least a few people work to avoid another tragedy like this one

This tragedy while extremely undesirable, is a 0.1 on the Richter scale of possible bad results. It’s easy to get emotionally involved but the potential of what lies ahead makes it essentially invisible. For example, will we have world food shortages? Hopefully not, but a lot of people are now talking about it very seriously. If that’s true, how many poor children will die? Again I hope it’s all hype. The WEF already is promoting policies that are killing the poor. jerry

Jerry at 634, Alright. We have The Left, the mainstream media and politicians. And they are controlled by one person. What can the average American do? It appears that the strings are being pulled and there is no end in sight. Or, at least a few people work to avoid another tragedy like this one. relatd

Jerry @601. Amen. Paxx

Would you mind identifying “the same source”

The press/left political politicians. They are controlled by one person who works for the WEF. Why are they always in lockstep? jerry

JHolo: And I do believe that the US love affair with the gun is extremely damaging. A single variable reaction. Not helpful. And no attempt at multivariant cost/benefit. The overwhelming majority of people who own and "love" guns has nothing to do with the root causes of gun violence, which for some reason seems to evade your awareness. We are not impressed by kindergarten commentary. Paxx

In the late 90s, due to a mass shooting, Australia invoked very strict gun laws. And homicide rates dropped by about 65%. Someone do the math on how many lives have been saved. https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/AUS/australia/murder-homicide-rate JHolo

Jerry at 629, Would you mind identifying "the same source"? relatd

First thing to do is to realize that Leftists aren't interested in solving anything. They just want to throw money around and act like they are in a position of authority. After unrestrained preening and untold billions thrown at education its worse than it's ever been. Untold billions thrown around in the name of Climate Change, and nothing is any different than it was before, except some have bigger houses and cars and travel budgets and belt sizes. Andrew asauber

my ‘reasonable’ ideas to solve the problem

What problem? Guns are not the issue. They are just latest emotional meme to control the population. Always emanating from the same source. jerry

More often than not, human error is to blame: I Created the F.B.I.’s Active Shooter Program. The Officers in Uvalde Did Not Follow Their Training We are paying people to protect us who don't have any idea how to do so even after training. Teachers included. Then there is Two Professors Found What Creates a Mass Shooter. Will Politicians Pay Attention?- will law enforcement listen? ET

JH at 626, "US love affair with the gun"? Do you have any evidence for that? I posted a survey earlier that showed the reasons people in the U.S. own guns. However, and with due respect, superficial is the common response here, i.e. too many guns, 'love guns,' and my 'reasonable' ideas to solve the problem. These ideas 'work' for discussions like this. All I've been trying to do is point out that comments should translate into some kind of action. relatd

Relatd: Canada is better than the U.S. That was the message. Not helpful.

No, the message was that there are differences and similarities. Obviously, I have a soft spot in my heart for Canada. And I do believe that the US love affair with the gun is extremely damaging. But I also find Americans, in general, to be extremely generous and supportive of others. JHolo

"You can no longer . . . " YET. lawless nihilism kairosfocus

Kairosfocus: Why do we still pay attention to bought and paid for technicos when Mr Moneybags is right there? Why do we refuse to heed prudence in good time, again and again to the point of predictability? As the saying goes: those who are ignorant of history are doomed to repeat it. Something like that. But I think we have made a lot of progress. You can no longer be sold as property, women can vote, labour unions have helped protect workers from some pretty heinous conditions, we have laws regarding safe water, living conditions, you can no longer discriminate against someone based on their skin, religious beliefs, sexual orientation. Lots to do yet but I'm optimistic. I here speak as the surviving son of the man who warned my homeland but oh no we set that aside. The financial scale of the ruin was within 3% of the predicted value. You would be amused to know Fourier transform analysis of econometric data was used. For a generation since, that land has paid a bitter price. Mathematics is just a tool; accessible to the wise and the foolish and the rogues. JVL

JVL at 616, The internet. Where no one has a real identity. I know many of the reasons for this. Why it was done and for what purpose. It exposes a portion of the herding of the cattle strategy where people just go along with this because all the cool kids are doing it and/or "everybody" is doing it. relatd

JVL, a microcosm, a case study of history. Why do we still pay attention to bought and paid for technicos when Mr Moneybags is right there? Why do we refuse to heed prudence in good time, again and again to the point of predictability? I here speak as the surviving son of the man who warned my homeland but oh no we set that aside. The financial scale of the ruin was within 3% of the predicted value. You would be amused to know Fourier transform analysis of econometric data was used. For a generation since, that land has paid a bitter price. One that included being a theatre of operations in the global geostrategic fight of that time, leading to ruin. KF kairosfocus

Jerry, thank God, the key audience is not the habitual objectors. This thread, specifically, has exposed the cynical hollowness of agendas being pushed. It is exposed that even the actual scope of the problem has been willfully distorted. As for ID in general, in recent threads a postulational framework was laid out, the inference the theory and movement were marked out, and it is again -- yes, repetition but in answer to recycled objections because objectors refuse to heed the WACs -- shown that the attempts to dismiss the design inference are specious and turn on fallacies. Meanwhile, the body of published ID literature grows. This thread in part shows why our civilisation needs the ID movement, as a part of beginning to turn the tide against the nihilism that threatens to lead our civilisation to shipwreck. And it does not show advocates of what drives that nihilism in a good light that the lessons they refuse to learn were paid for in blood and tears 2400 years ago. The agit prop tactics were exposed 2000 years ago. And more. KF kairosfocus

Kairosfocus: Kindly see the just above. I read it. The Biblical reference might confuse some people in that form. JVL

KF at 617, Fresh details and insights? Let's see: We're all being lied to and Nihilism. And "geostrategic vultures." I see. And these details and insights are helping anyone how? Do you know how any of these elements actually work? By the way, no one here was around 2,000 or 2,400 years ago and man has not change since then. New technology has appeared. I follow it as best I can. Children being defended. Try talking to someone who may not know what you know. Or not. relatd

JVL, piling on on a strawman misrepresentation simply reveals that it is you who have run out of gas. Kindly see the just above. KF kairosfocus

Relatd, you obviously have not even bothered to monitor the substantial fresh details and insights I have sourced. We now know that the nature and incidence of the focal attacks have been grossly, propagandistically distorted to the point of big lie gaslighting. We have analysis that we are looking at suicide attacks driven by nihilism and which propagate in waves fed by media attention. We know those touting disarmament used the filibuster to frustrate target hardening then now want to suggest it doesn't work. We know they push what fits their narrative while sidelining what does not. We know 23 years ago it became evident that these nihilistic attacks make nonsense out of cordon and negotiate. We know that lockdown fatigue caused failure to simply lock and keep locked barrier doors allowing capture of the position by the shooter. We know police milled about just outside the door for nearly an hour even as children trapped within were begging for intervention. We know that target hardening worked in Israel due to grim resolve and persistence. And a lot more. Those things point to where did the nihilism come from, and to why lawless nihilism is a threat to liberty and opens the door for geostrategic vultures to make breakthrough power moves. And more. The picture is substantiated, it might not be what the agit prop narrative driving the media wants to promote, but it is objectively founded. And surprise, not, these things have deep roots in history so things from 2,000 and 2400 years ago have much to tell us. Including a sobering scriptural analysis by a writer who is also an often underrated historian of the classic era. Fair Havens is an expose for the ages, in the most common single book in our civilisation. The marginalised voice of prudence and common sense, the bought and paid for technico busy gaslighting to promote folly (and his Mr Moneybags), the confused, manipulated stakeholders and government leaders, the consequences of folly, the emergence of the good man in the storm, and more. Classic, not outdated. KF kairosfocus

Related: What happened to Defend the children (from getting shot)? Sounds great! What are you going to do about that? Keep complaining on some website where most people, including you, don't even own up to their own identity? What are you, personally, going to do to make things better? JVL

What happened to Defend the children

None of this has anything to do with children. They are just the latest pawn to be played. Abortion and climate change politics each kills millions more children than guns. On runway taking off jerry

Donald Trump? Trans rights? What happened to Defend the children (from getting shot)? relatd

Jerry: I haven’t seen an anti ID person contribute anything in over 15 years. ID hasn't really come up with anything new in the last 15 years so there's not a lot of new stuff to say. JVL

Related: You know what? I am tired of seeing endless “discussion” after 600 posts. KF, for example, keeps recycling his comments as if no one saw them the first several dozen times. He's been saying the same things for years and years! Let me add a summary: Lots of talk – no action. It's up to the Americans to solve their problems. I don't live there anymore and refuse to tell them what to do although I do have an opinion. Let me also add a prediction: This discussion will fade away as if it never existed. And, no action. That's what always has happened: nothing. That's why I posted that news item about Canada; they seem to be doing something. Agree or disagree with the action they are changing things. Or thinking about it anyway. JVL

Kairosfocus: The key challenge to constitutional, lawful democracy in our time is the same as in Plato’s time: lawless nihilism, as was pointed to yesterday. Um . . . you say the 'nihilists' are trying to use the laws to destroy civilisation but you say the nihilism is 'lawless'? The underlying issue is as it was in plato’s time, rise of ideologies that undermine respect for built in intelligible first law, and while today, evolutionary materialism has exchanged philosopher’s robes for the lab coat, it is still the same. It seems to me that over the last few centuries human beings have become more and more respectful of scientific truth instead of assumed or revealed truth. Are you sure you aren't being just a bit anti-science? Also, who's to say what is 'built-in , intelligible, first law'? Shouldn't we start off with the science and work from there? In that context, lawless factions soon prove incompetent, corrupt and ruthless, leading to chaos and the looter state ending in shipwreck. I don't think the trans-right activists are lawless; in fact they seem quite determine to work within the laws. On the current issue, we see gross disrespect for truth and a power grab, while the same factions frustrated efforts to fix their latest hot button issue a decade ago. They are lying — they MUST know better than they promote — about even the incidence of the problem; but their bought and paid for narrative pushes the big lies, drowning out anything else by sheer volume . You seem really annoyed that not everyone sees the world the same way you do so you proclaim alternate views as lies. Sounds like you don't actually like some people having a say and a vote. Sounds like you want to screen opinions and views before they are allowed in the public forum. Not very democratic is it? They have implied a threat to crush any attempt to pull out, even as evidence of dirty elections continues to pile up Strangely enough that evidence never showed up in a US court to the point where it convinced a judge who is liable to be reviewed and over-ruled based on the system of appeal. It's all just died on the vine hasn't it? Policy incompetence is manifest, too as can be seen from emboldened geostrategic vultures and emergence of what looks a whole lot like stagflation. Well, if you've got a good economic insight then that might be helpful. For, given create [or exploit] a crisis, the lawless nietzschean superman political messiah above law who rescues the key target group from its foes and delivers utopia by working magick with the state is always a threat. You mean like Donald Trump? Sounds like his approach. All within the state, nothing beyond the state, nothing against the state, embodied in the idolatrous messiah to extend Mussolini’s remark. You really don't like being in the minority do you? It's particularly funny considering that two centuries ago you would have been considered property by a lot of people. What you see happening now is just a continuation of the enlightenment values that starting to really bite in the 19th century: people finally figured out that slavery was bad, people finally figured out that more people (including blacks and women and men who did not own property) should have a say in how things are governed, people started figuring out that they didn't have to be continually exploited by a nihilistic overseer or business owner, etc. You can't just say: okay, we've had enough reform now; all exploited and discriminated against groups deserve the same respect and protection as do you. Why is that a problem? Why can't trans-people have the same civil rights? Why can't homosexual people have the same civil rights? We gave women and black people the vote and we can quit now? There were no good old days. At any time in the past you pick there were oppressed and discriminated against people and, I think, we are thankfully learning how to rectify more and more of those disparities. JVL

UD never decides anything. Occasionally one can learn something but not often. The science by the pro ID people is occasionally interesting but that’s it. I haven’t seen an anti ID person contribute anything in over 15 years. jerry

JVL at 608, You know what? I am tired of seeing endless "discussion" after 600 posts. KF, for example, keeps recycling his comments as if no one saw them the first several dozen times. Let me add a summary: Lots of talk - no action. Let me also add a prediction: This discussion will fade away as if it never existed. And, no action. relatd

Relatd: Canada is better than the U.S. That was the message. Not helpful. Not helpful for a problem occurring in the U.S. Let me apologise for JHolo offering an opinion and analysis that you disagreed with. I don't understand what got into them! I tell you what, should we pass our possible posts to you first so you can vet them? JVL

JVl, really. The key challenge to constitutional, lawful democracy in our time is the same as in Plato's time: lawless nihilism, as was pointed to yesterday. The underlying issue is as it was in plato's time, rise of ideologies that undermine respect for built in intelligible first law, and while today, evolutionary materialism has exchanged philosopher's robes for the lab coat, it is still the same. In that context, lawless factions soon prove incompetent, corrupt and ruthless, leading to chaos and the looter state ending in shipwreck. On the current issue, we see gross disrespect for truth and a power grab, while the same factions frustrated efforts to fix their latest hot button issue a decade ago. They are lying -- they MUST know better than they promote -- about even the incidence of the problem; but their bought and paid for narrative pushes the big lies, drowning out anything else by sheer volume . They have implied a threat to crush any attempt to pull out, even as evidence of dirty elections continues to pile up. Policy incompetence is manifest, too as can be seen from emboldened geostrategic vultures and emergence of what looks a whole lot like stagflation. Meanwhile, Jerry has a point about follow the money, the money that has bought and paid for the sorts of voices that keep pushing a train of abuses and usurpations. And yes, fascism is a threat, but we must remember fascism is Marxism's kissing cousin. For, given create [or exploit] a crisis, the lawless nietzschean superman political messiah above law who rescues the key target group from its foes and delivers utopia by working magick with the state is always a threat. All within the state, nothing beyond the state, nothing against the state, embodied in the idolatrous messiah to extend Mussolini's remark. KF kairosfocus

JVL at 605, Canada is better than the U.S. That was the message. Not helpful. Not helpful for a problem occurring in the U.S. relatd

Relatd: That was for what? Contrast and compare Canada and the U.S.? For what? JHolo and I were discussing something which arose because of a news story I posted regarding the Canadian government considering a ban on sales of short-barrel firearms. You're welcome to participate but it would be polite to actually track back through the discussion before angrily demanding a purpose for a post. JVL

JH at 603, That was for what? Contrast and compare Canada and the U.S.? For what? If it was about religious zeal then where is the effort to solve school shootings? relatd

JVL: AND we’re back to: what is different about America?

Canada has a large French population and the US has a large Spanish population. They both have large immigrant populations of different races and cultures. One difference is that the US expects its immigrants to assimilate whereas in Canada immigrants are encouraged to maintain their culture as long as it does not conflict with Canadian laws. Canada is hugely influenced by the US because of cross-border media. I seem to remember that Canada actually has more long guns per capita than the US (could be wrong). But Canada never had the gun culture that the US does. Perhaps it is due to the 2nd amendment, but I have always viewed this amendment as a post-hoc justification of the revolution. Changing traitors to patriots. During the war of 1812 there were many bordering communities that simply refused to fight each other. During the war St. Stephen’s, NB actually gave Calais, Maine gun powder so that they could celebrate July 4th. One of the differences is that Canada does not have the level of religious zeal that the US does. We have some evangelicals, but they are few. I think another difference is a difference in patriotic zeal. US citizens tend to wrap themselves in the flag for any cause. Canadians are less likely to do so. This is also reflected in the US being more resistant to change and the veneration of the founding fathers and the constitution. You just don’t see that in Canada. JHolo

Kairosfocus: for a decade I have pointed out that though they open up respect for freedom, democracies are inherently unstable . . . Oligarchy is the natural form of government and it is in a continual conflict over lawfulness vs lawlessness. Democracies require key cultural buttresses which are being eroded in our time. Since you clearly would not prefer to live in an oligarchy then you think that democracy is good as long as certain 'cultural buttresses' are in place. And you think that same-sex marriage, trans-sexual rights, etc are signposts that those cultural buttresses are being eroded (even though most European countries have successfully or are successfully incorporating many social changes which you consider damaging). We could spend a lot of time trying to specify where your cultural buttresses originate from but I don't think anyone would actually read another post from Plato and . . . Are you saying that the right to keep and bear arms is a cultural buttress? Considering that many other first-world democracies have decided that restricting ownership is actually a better way to protect their citizens from lawless activity. Oh, by the way, it's pretty clear that the case of Athens did not discredit democracy for 2000 years. Many cultural groups had something like a democracy or were slowly progressing that way over the last millennium. The Icelandic Althing started before the Normans invaded England and let's not forget Magna Carta. Heck, the English killed their king over a century before the Declaration of Independence. JVL

What’s it all about? https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2022/05/forget_the_marxists_heres_the_real_enemy_of_america.html I’ll repeat: what’s going on in the world is an attempt to establish a world government. It has nothing to do with guns, climate change, race, gender, a pandemic or whatever the cause of the week is. Discuss all your pet theories all you want but when a couple people control the equivalent of the US economy that is where one should be looking. School shootings/mass shootings are a side show. Fascism - here we come Follow the money! Follow the power! jerry

JVL, for a decade I have pointed out that though they open up respect for freedom, democracies are inherently unstable. Athens, the first major case in our civilisation failed along lines as Plato outlined in ship of state. This discredited democracy for 2,000 years. Oligarchy is the natural form of government and it is in a continual conflict over lawfulness vs lawlessness. Democracies require key cultural buttresses which are being eroded in our time. KF kairosfocus

KF, Keep recycling the same thing over and over. Lives saved? Zero. Jerry at 563, Why not look up hot dog consumption by country? I'm sure there's a correlation :) relatd

F/N, the underlying context, from Plato

It is not too hard to figure out that our civilisation is in deep trouble and is most likely headed for shipwreck. (And of course, that sort of concern is dismissed as “apocalyptic,” or neurotic pessimism that refuses to pause and smell the roses.) Plato’s Socrates spoke to this sort of situation, long since, in the ship of state parable in The Republic, Bk VI:

>>[Soc.] I perceive, I said, that you are vastly amused at having plunged me into such a hopeless discussion; but now hear the parable, and then you will be still more amused at the meagreness of my imagination: for the manner in which the best men are treated in their own States is so grievous that no single thing on earth is comparable to it; and therefore, if I am to plead their cause, I must have recourse to fiction, and put together a figure made up of many things, like the fabulous unions of goats and stags which are found in pictures. Imagine then a fleet or a ship in which there is a captain [–> often interpreted, ship’s owner] who is taller and stronger than any of the crew, but he is a little deaf and has a similar infirmity in sight, and his knowledge of navigation is not much better. [= The people own the community and in the mass are overwhelmingly strong, but are ill equipped on the whole to guide, guard and lead it] The sailors are quarrelling with one another about the steering – every one is of opinion that he has a right to steer [= selfish ambition to rule and dominate], though he has never learned the art of navigation and cannot tell who taught him or when he learned, and will further assert that it cannot be taught, and they are ready to cut in pieces any one who says the contrary. They throng about the captain, begging and praying him to commit the helm to them [–> kubernetes, steersman, from which both cybernetics and government come in English]; and if at any time they do not prevail, but others are preferred to them, they kill the others or throw them overboard [ = ruthless contest for domination of the community], and having first chained up the noble captain’s senses with drink or some narcotic drug [ = manipulation and befuddlement, cf. the parable of the cave], they mutiny and take possession of the ship and make free with the stores; thus, eating and drinking, they proceed on their voyage in such a manner as might be expected of them [–> Cf here Luke’s subtle case study in Ac 27]. Him who is their partisan and cleverly aids them in their plot for getting the ship out of the captain’s hands into their own whether by force or persuasion [–> Nihilistic will to power on the premise of might and manipulation making ‘right’ ‘truth’ ‘justice’ ‘rights’ etc], they compliment with the name of sailor, pilot, able seaman, and abuse the other sort of man, whom they call a good-for-nothing; but that the true pilot must pay attention to the year and seasons and sky and stars and winds, and whatever else belongs to his art, if he intends to be really qualified for the command of a ship, and that he must and will be the steerer, whether other people like or not-the possibility of this union of authority with the steerer’s art has never seriously entered into their thoughts or been made part of their calling. Now in vessels which are in a state of mutiny and by sailors who are mutineers, how will the true pilot be regarded? Will he not be called by them a prater, a star-gazer, a good-for-nothing? [Ad.] Of course, said Adeimantus. [Soc.] Then you will hardly need, I said, to hear the interpretation of the figure, which describes the true philosopher in his relation to the State [ --> here we see Plato's philosopher-king emerging]; for you understand already. [Ad.] Certainly. [Soc.] Then suppose you now take this parable to the gentleman who is surprised at finding that philosophers have no honour in their cities; explain it to him and try to convince him that their having honour would be far more extraordinary. [Ad.] I will. [Soc.] Say to him, that, in deeming the best votaries of philosophy to be useless to the rest of the world, he is right; but also tell him to attribute their uselessness to the fault of those who will not use them, and not to themselves. The pilot should not humbly beg the sailors to be commanded by him –that is not the order of nature; neither are ‘the wise to go to the doors of the rich’ –the ingenious author of this saying told a lie –but the truth is, that, when a man is ill, whether he be rich or poor, to the physician he must go, and he who wants to be governed, to him who is able to govern. [--> the issue of competence and character as qualifications to rule] The ruler who is good for anything ought not to beg his subjects to be ruled by him [ --> down this road lies the modern solution: a sound, well informed people will seek sound leaders, who will not need to manipulate or bribe or worse, and such a ruler will in turn be checked by the soundness of the people, cf. US DoI, 1776]; although the present governors of mankind are of a different stamp; they may be justly compared to the mutinous sailors, and the true helmsmen to those who are called by them good-for-nothings and star-gazers. [Ad.] Precisely so, he said. [Soc] For these reasons, and among men like these, philosophy, the noblest pursuit of all, is not likely to be much esteemed by those of the opposite faction [--> the sophists, the Demagogues, Alcibiades and co, etc]; not that the greatest and most lasting injury is done to her by her opponents, but by her own professing followers, the same of whom you suppose the accuser to say, that the greater number of them are arrant rogues, and the best are useless; in which opinion I agreed [--> even among the students of the sound state (here, political philosophy and likely history etc.), many are of unsound motivation and intent, so mere education is not enough, character transformation is critical]. [Ad.] Yes. [Soc.] And the reason why the good are useless has now been explained? [Ad.] True. [Soc.] Then shall we proceed to show that the corruption of the majority is also unavoidable [--> implies a need for a corruption-restraining minority providing proverbial salt and light, cf. Ac 27, as well as justifying a governing structure turning on separation of powers, checks and balances], and that this is not to be laid to the charge of philosophy any more than the other? [Ad.] By all means. [Soc.] And let us ask and answer in turn, first going back to the description of the gentle and noble nature.[ -- > note the character issue] Truth, as you will remember, was his leader, whom he followed always and in all things [ --> The spirit of truth as a marker]; failing in this, he was an impostor, and had no part or lot in true philosophy [--> the spirit of truth is a marker, for good or ill] . . . >>

(There is more than an echo of this in Acts 27, a real world case study. [Luke, a physician, was an educated Greek with a taste for subtle references.] This blog post, on soundness in policy, will also help)

On the underlying Peloponnesian war, Wiki confesses:

The Peloponnesian War (431–404 BC)[2] was an ancient Greek war fought between the Delian League, which was led by Athens, and the Peloponnesian League, which was led by Sparta. Historians have traditionally divided the war into three phases. In the first phase, the Archidamian War, Sparta launched repeated invasions of Attica, while Athens took advantage of its naval supremacy to raid the coast of the Peloponnese and attempted to suppress signs of unrest in its empire. This period of the war was concluded in 421 BC, with the signing of the Peace of Nicias. That treaty, however, was soon undermined by renewed fighting in the Peloponnese. In 415 BC, Athens dispatched a massive expeditionary force to attack Syracuse, Sicily; the attack failed disastrously, with the destruction of the entire force in 413 BC. This ushered in the final phase of the war, generally referred to either as the Decelean War, or the Ionian War. In this phase, Sparta, now receiving support from the Achaemenid Empire, supported rebellions in Athens's subject states in the Aegean Sea and Ionia, undermining Athens's empire, and, eventually, depriving the city of naval supremacy. The destruction of Athens's fleet in the Battle of Aegospotami effectively ended the war, and Athens surrendered in the following year. Corinth and Thebes demanded that Athens should be destroyed and all its citizens should be enslaved, but Sparta refused. Although the term "Peloponnesian War" was never used by Thucydides, one of the conflict's most important historians, the fact that the term is all but universally used today is a reflection of the Athens-centric sympathies of modern historians. As prominent historian J. B. Bury remarks, the Peloponnesians would have considered it the "Attic War".[3] The Peloponnesian War reshaped the ancient Greek world. On the level of international relations, Athens, the strongest city-state in Greece prior to the war's beginning, was reduced to a state of near-complete subjection, while Sparta became established as the leading power of Greece. The economic costs of the war were felt all across Greece; poverty became widespread in the Peloponnese, while Athens was completely devastated, and never regained its pre-war prosperity.[4][5] The war also wrought subtler changes to Greek society; the conflict between democratic Athens and oligarchic Sparta, each of which supported friendly political factions within other states, made war a common occurrence in the Greek world. Ancient Greek warfare, meanwhile, originally a limited and formalized form of conflict, was transformed into an all-out struggle between city-states, complete with atrocities on a large scale. Shattering religious and cultural taboos, devastating vast swathes of countryside, and destroying whole cities, the Peloponnesian War marked the dramatic end to the fifth century BC and the golden age of Greece.[6]

Alcibiades

In the 17th year of the war, word came to Athens that one of their distant allies in Sicily was under attack from Syracuse, the main city of Sicily. The people of Syracuse were ethnically Dorian (as were the Spartans), while the Athenians, and their ally in Sicilia, were Ionian. The Athenians felt obliged to help their ally. They also held visions, rallied on by Alcibiades, who ultimately led an expedition, of conquering all of Sicily. Syracuse was not much smaller than Athens, and conquering all of Sicily would bring Athens immense resources. In the final preparations for departure, the hermai (religious statues) of Athens were mutilated by unknown persons, and Alcibiades was charged with religious crimes. Alcibiades demanded that he be put on trial at once, so that he can defend himself before the expedition. However, the Athenians allowed Alcibiades to go on the expedition without being tried (many believed in order to better plot against him). After arriving in Sicily, Alcibiades was recalled to Athens for trial. Fearing that he would be unjustly condemned, Alcibiades defected to Sparta and Nicias was placed in charge of the mission. After his defection, Alcibiades claimed to the Spartans that the Athenians planned to use Sicily as a springboard for the conquest of all of Italy and Carthage, and to use the resources and soldiers from these new conquests to conquer the Peloponnese.

kairosfocus

JHolo: There will be some opposition but I suspect that Trudeau’s changes will receive overwhelming support from the populace. Why would they object to not being able to buy something they don't want to buy? AND we're back to: what is different about America? The US and Canada were explored and settled by Europeans at roughly similar times by roughly similar people. Canada is a vast wilderness full of lots of deadly critters so certainly 100 or 200 years ago most men probably owned a weapon. But that attitude hasn't stuck there like in the US. It can't just be a constitutional thing; after all, the US founding fathers made provision for changing the US constitution but there hasn't been enough support to do that. Not in Congress anyway. A Christian theocracy, of course. Well, I guess if the US public voted for it, it would happen!! JVL

KF: Oh dear. Dare I ask what is a better form of government? Perhaps that’s a topic too far .

A Christian theocracy, of course. JHolo

Kairosfocus: I am not speaking to Canada. Well, the article I linked to was ONLY about Canada so you changed the topic a bit. AND/OR, you seem to think that there's some kind of slippery-slope, I guess: if Canada starts restricting guns then the US might follow? Or something. Perhaps you should be more clear? the moral hazards of democracies Oh dear. Dare I ask what is a better form of government? Perhaps that's a topic too far . . . JVL

PS, speaking of the moral hazards of democracies

[On Luke's microcosm on the ship of state, Jan 1, 2013:] Entrenched highly ideological orthodoxies — and this includes successful revolutionaries, whether on institutional or community scale — that control resource flows to their benefit and which exert enormous power in institutions and society [I was speaking here about today's evolutionary materialism dominated science], tend to be very resistant to what is new and unsettling to their comfort zones and interests. Where there has been indoctrination and polarisation, we can see this multiplied by the problem of lack of logical thinking ability and sheer lack of awareness of the true state of the balance of warrant on the merits of facts and evidence. The perceived heretic, then is a threat to be fought off, marginalised, discredited and if necessary destroyed. By any and all means, fair or foul. (I find the obsession with suggestions of a threat of religious subversion of [scientific, political, education, media and cultural] institutions long since subverted by radical secularists slightly amusing but quite sad in the end. The key threat is unaccountable, out of control power in the hands of elites prone to corruption, not that this once happened with religious elites. In the past 100 years, we saw major secularist movements and neopagan movements of political messianism that did much the same to horrific cost. And the welfare state of the past generation has not been a whole lot better. [Just ask the ghosts of the dozens of millions who have been aborted for convenience.]) Where is there a solution? Frankly, at this stage, I think things are going to have to crash so badly and some elites are going to have to be so discredited by the associated spreading failure, that media propaganda tactics cannot cover it up anymore. My model for that comes from one of the red-flag sources that will give some of the objectors [to the design theory movement in science] the vapours. Acts 27. What, how dare you cite that, that . . . that . . . textbook for theocratic tyranny by the ignorant, insane, stupid and/or wicked followers of that bronze age misogynistic homophobic genocidal racist war god! (Do you hear how your agit-prop talking points are enmeshing you in the classic trap of believing your own propaganda?) Let’s start with, Paul of Tarsus, c. AD 59, was not in the Bronze Age but was an appellate prisoner in chains on early Imperial era grain ships having a hard time making way from the Levant and Asia Minor to Rome, in the second case ending up in a bay on Crete. What followed is a classic exercise in the follies of manipulated democracy, a case study that will well repay study in our time.

It was late in the sailing season, and the merchant-owner was worried about his ship in an open bay at Fair Havens, given what winter storms can do. The passengers were not too impressed by the nearby settlements as a wintering place. (Sailing stopped in Autumn and opened back up in Spring. [--> EVERYONE knew why, the ships of that day could not bear up the storms of winter, and as time wore on in the fall, sailing became increasingly dangerous]) The key technico, the kubernete — steersman, more or less like a pilot of an airliner — knew where his bread was buttered, and by whom. In the middle was a Centurion of the elite messenger corps. We are at ship’s council, and Paul, in chains, is suggesting that the suggestion to venture our with a favourable wind to try to make it to a more commodious port down-coast was excessively risky not only to boat but life. The financial and technical talking heads and the appeal of comfort allowed him to be easily marginalised and dismissed. Then we saw a gentle south breeze, that would have allowed a reach down the coast. (The technicos probably knew this could be a precursor to a storm, but were not going to cut across the dominant view. [Let's add, how many days would it have taken to simply WALK to Phoenix, 40 mi away by sea? 3 - 4? We can readily see how the implicit, you won't get money back if you "abandon" the voyage and the rosy description of a smooth, low risk afternoon's sail could easily have swayed opinions.]) They sailed out. Bang, an early winter noreaster hit them and sprang the boat’s timbers (why they tried to hold together with ropes [--> called frapping]) so the ship was in a sinking condition from the beginning. Worse, they were heading for sandbars off the coast of today’s Libya. For two weeks all they could do was use a sea anchor to control drift and try to steer vaguely WNW. Forget, eating. That is when Paul stood forth as a good man in a storm, and encouraged them with a vision from God. By this time, hope was to be shipwrecked on a coast. (Turned out, [probably] north coast of Malta [possibly, east end].) While the ship was at risk of being driven aground and set out four anchors by the stern from midnight on, the sailors tried to abandon the passengers on a ruse, spotted by Paul and/or Luke his travelling companion. By this time, the Centurion knew who to take seriously and the ship’s boat was cut away. He then took the decision to save Paul and refused the soldiers’ request to kill the prisoners to prevent escape (for which their lives would have been forfeit). So, they made it to a beach on Malta, having lost the ship in any case AND nearly their own lives.

Votes, or more exactly ballots, cannot change realities. Voting publics have a duty of vigilant prudence, one which manifestly is not currently being fulfilled. kairosfocus

I grew up in Toronto and I can tell you that there was crime, there were drugs, there were gangs. And, to the best of my knowledge, none of that has changed. And in the 30+ years I was there I had never seen a handgun except on TV and on a cop's belt. And I had never seen a rifle, except on TV. And I suspect that I am not unique in this aspect. I knew people who owned rifles for hunting, but they were always locked away. With the ammunition locked away separately. There will be some opposition but I suspect that Trudeau's changes will receive overwhelming support from the populace. JHolo

JVL, I am not speaking to Canada. KF kairosfocus

Kairosfocus: Yes a glimpse of the onward agenda. This is how it will be read, 63 million already slaughtered, abolish the police [replace with a political police], remove any means of effective defence, back red guard mobs. Go down that road and you will get an April 19, 1775. But they think they will win this time around if it happens. They have already spoken of heavy MGs, panzers, ground attack aircraft, nukes as in you better not try to secede. It just might be that a lot of Canadians would agree with the proposed legislation in which case your eschatological scenario might have to wait for its grand opening. You do support democratic governments don't you? That does mean, sometimes, not getting your way exactly. One of the good things about democracies though is that you're free to leave them. JVL

F/N: Food for thought numbers: https://dailyanarchist.com/2012/07/31/auditing-shooting-rampage-statistics/

I posted a graphic on Facebook claiming the average number of people killed in mass shootings when stopped by police is 18.25, and the average number of people killed in a mass shooting when stopped by civilians is 2.2. I based it on 10 shootings I found listed on some timeline somewhere. I honestly don’t even remember where. I presented the case studies in a blog post on the Silver Circle blog and I did the math myself. The graphic was met with great enthusiasm and much skepticism. Leave it to Facebook users to demand an audit on a meme. So, I started over, only much more meticulous this time. I compiled and analyzed 100 shootings, noting my methodology, and I am now prepared to present my findings, complete with links to the data. But here’s a spoiler… It’s not that different. The average number of people killed in mass shootings when stopped by police is 14.29 The average number of people killed in a mass shooting when stopped by a civilian is 2.33 I was so close! Here’s what I think accounts for the difference. In the first sample there was likely a selection error based on what grabs headlines. Larger shootings get more press, so if you take a small sampling you’re going to be working with a data set of the worst shootings. As for the consistency of the civilian statistic, it makes perfect sense if you think about from inside the mind of a heroic civilian with a concealed carry permit. It goes something like this: BANG! “[]! that guy shot that other guy.” BANG! “He’s just going to keep shooting people.” BANG! And the shooter goes down. Quite a few cases went something like that. In fact, I found only one example of a shooter stopped by civilians who killed more than three people. Jared Loughner killed 6 people in Tucson, Arizona before he was tackled by two civilians. An astute reader informed me that at least one of the civilians that helped stop Jared Loughner was carrying a concealed weapon, but he did not use his gun out of concern for innocent bystanders.

We need to think the issues through. kairosfocus

F/N: On the suicide question -- the majority of firearms homicides are self inflicted, there are interesting comments at Reason:

Rossami May.26.2022 at 3:51 pm re: "States that allow gun ownership inexplicably have more suicide by firearms." Yes though that's hardly inexplicable. What the gun controllers might find inexplicable is that they do not have more total suicides. In other words, if someone really wants to kill him/herself, taking away their guns just means they find a different way to do it. Log in to Reply soldiermedic76 May.26.2022 at 3:55 pm Yeah, but not necessarily more suicides overall. Suicides are a very complex subject and people often plan them in advance. I've done several classes on this in my former employment and as a veteran advocate. It's a myth that they are spur of the moment, but there is often a crisis point people reach. They will work to get whatever method they choose. The only time denying them access to the method of their choice works is when they reach that crisis point. And noticing the signs is far more effective and intervening, reaching out, Question, Persuade and refer, than denying them access to guns. I suggest all parents and teachers seek resources to learn how to detect the signs and how to properly intervene. Don't beat around the bush, ask them directly, 'are you planning on committing suicide?' it's a myth that asking this question will persuade them or influence them to commit suicide. It's a tough question but easier than attending your son's funeral. Log in to Reply soldiermedic76 May.26.2022 at 3:56 pm And I said son, because statistically juvenile and young adult males are the most prone to suicide. Log in to Reply tommyboy May.26.2022 at 6:23 pm Incorrect. Statistically, middle-aged white males and Native American males are most prone to suicide. On a related discussion former and current military males have higher rates than civilians, but the real difference seems to be females who have been in the military. They commit suicide at much higher rates than non-military females. Log in to Reply soldiermedic76 May.26.2022 at 7:17 pm Actually, according to your graph the highest rate was in 25-34 year olds, while suicides among middle ages has been declining. Log in to Reply tommyboy May.26.2022 at 6:24 pm Sauce: https://www.sprc.org/scope/age

kairosfocus

JVL, Yes a glimpse of the onward agenda. This is how it will be read, 63 million already slaughtered, abolish the police [replace with a political police], remove any means of effective defence, back red guard mobs. Go down that road and you will get an April 19, 1775. But they think they will win this time around if it happens. They have already spoken of heavy MGs, panzers, ground attack aircraft, nukes as in you better not try to secede. KF kairosfocus

Canada should introduce a total ban on the buying and selling of all handguns, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has said. His government is proposing a new law that would freeze private ownership of all short-barrelled firearms. The legislation would not ban the ownership of handguns outright - but would make it illegal to buy them.

The bill, which was presented to Canada's parliament on Monday, makes it impossible to buy, sell, transfer or import handguns anywhere in the country. "Other than using firearms for sport shooting and hunting, there is no reason anyone in Canada should need guns in their everyday lives," Mr Trudeau told reporters. "As we see gun violence continue to rise, it is our duty to keep taking action," he said.

The bill would also require rifle magazines to be reconfigured so they can hold no more than five rounds at a time. And it would take away firearms licences from gun owners involved in domestic violence or criminal harassment.

Canada already has stricter rules on gun ownership than its southern neighbour and records fewer firearm incidents every year. For example, all guns must be kept locked and unloaded and anyone wishing to buy a firearm must undergo extensive background checks.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-61641543 JVL

PPS, let's note that any incident of murder or attempted murder or terrorism or arson or bombing or riot etc is unacceptable, anti civilisational, misanthropic. That noted, observe that in the much ignored 30 above, I suggested that misuse of weapons or potential weapons should be tried under the unorganised militia principle as court martial offenses. That is how seriously I take them. Having duly noted that, let us now put some specific challenges to the deceitful narrative about mass shootings on the table. Unresponsiveness to such correction, or dismissal, should be viewed i/l/o what is evidently going on as enabling of a misanthropic, anticivilisational, nihilistic agenda. First, Sen Ted Cruz: https://www.breitbart.com/clips/2022/05/25/cruz-dems-blocked-my-legislation-to-harden-schools-keep-guns-away-from-criminals-from-getting-60-votes/

On Wednesday’s broadcast of the Fox News Channel’s “Jesse Watters Primetime,” Sen. Ted Cruz (R-TX) stated that Democrats blocked legislation he proposed in 2013 to bolster school security and keep firearms out of the hands of criminals and the mentally ill by keeping it from reaching the 60-vote threshold. [--> filibustered] Cruz said, “In 2013, I introduced legislation that would spend $300 million on federal grants to harden schools to make them safer, to make them more protected. The Democrats filibustered that legislation. I’ve introduced legislation to say schools like this elementary school behind me can get federal grants to harden their security, to put in bulletproof doors, bulletproof glass, to put in armed police officers to protect kids.” [--> Cruz is a Texas Senator so the victims are his constituents.] He later added, “In 2013, I introduced legislation called Grassley-Cruz, which targeted felons and fugitives and those with serious mental illness. It directed the Department of Justice to do an audit of federal convictions to make sure felons are in the database. It directed the Department of Justice to prosecute and put in jail felons and fugitives who try to illegally buy firearms. That vote in the Harry Reid, Democrat Senate…a majority of the Senate voted in favor of Grassley-Cruz, but the Democrats filibustered it. They demanded 60 votes. They defeated it because they wanted to go after law-abiding citizens instead of stopping the bad guys. We need to stop the bad guys.”

Notice, this has not been part of the take it home bullet points for the dominant narrative. The technico's trotted out by Politico who suggested that oh target hardening failed were responsible to know and report this, reckoning with its import in their analysis. In short, those now exploiting school shooting incidents to promote their agendas that cannot see the light of day frustrated attempts to harden schools as particularly vulnerable targets. That is backdrop for noting, now: https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2022/05/30/reason-magazine-reported-mass-shooting-numbers-highly-inflated/

A Reason Magazine column focused on school mass shooting incidents shows that there have been 13 mass school shootings since 1966, far below the 27 incidents which the gun control lobby claims have happened this year alone. The Reason column opens by pointing to a National Public Radio (NPR) report that claimed, “27 school shootings have taken place so far this year.” NPR made that claim after the Uvalde, Texas, shooting. Reason explains that claims like those made by NPR are ubiquitous because outlets tracking such incidents have each adopted different criteria for what constitutes a school mass shooting . . . . Reason then points to a tally on school mass shootings that is maintained by the Scientific American. The Scientific American tally holds to the traditional FBI definition of a mass shooting–at least four people shot and killed. The Scientific American tally shows 13 school mass shootings since 1966. Breitbart News reported a similar inflation of reported mass shootings in 2015, noting that Mother Jones editor Mark Follman addressed the left’s exaggerated claims of “355 mass shootings” for the year and pointed out the actual number was about four. Follman pointed out that when the real definition of a mass shooting was applied–at least four people shot and killed–the record showed there had only been four mass shootings in the U.S. between January 1, 2015, and December 3, 2015. The four mass shootings listed by Follman are far fewer than the 355 claimed by the left [for that year].

Now, Reason: https://reason.com/2022/05/26/uvalde-texas-mass-shooting-statistics-gun-crimes-misleading/

There Have Been 13 Mass School Shootings Since 1966, Not 27 This Year Don't conflate mass shootings with school shootings. Robby Soave | 5.26.2022 11:55 AM For many people, the Uvalde, Texas, mass shooting—which claimed the lives of at least 19 children and two adults—seemed all the more horrible after they learned it was the 27th school shooting so far this year. That fact makes it harder to view Uvalde as any kind of isolated incident. An NPR article highlighting this statistic has been shared frequently on social media. The headline, "27 school shootings have taken place so far this year," probably gave many readers the impression that gun-related killings in schools have been especially high this year, even before Uvalde. Naturally, the prospect of 26 other previously unnoticed mass shooting events in schools should provoke alarm. It should also raise eyebrows. The problem here is that three very differently defined terms are being used somewhat incautiously and interchangeably: school shooting, mass shooting, and mass school shooting. Uvalde was a mass school shooting; the 26 previous tragedies at schools this year were not. The difference is significant. Education Week, which tracks all school shootings, defines them as incidents in which a person other than the suspect suffers a bullet wound on school property. Many of the 26 previous shootings involved disputes between students in parking lots, or after athletic events, and all of them resulted in one or zero deaths. These deaths are still incredibly tragic, of course. But they are fundamentally unlike what happened in Uvalde. Uvalde is a mass school shooting. This is defined in different ways too: an incident in which at least four people (some counters make it three) are shot and/or killed [ ==> on a school compound or at a school event, presumably]. The Gun Violence Archive counts incidents in which at least four people were shot. Under this definition, many incidents of street crime and domestic violence count as mass shootings, even if no deaths result. A stricter tally of mass school shootings, conducted by criminologists for Scientific American, only includes incidents where the shootings resulted in at least four deaths. Using their criteria, the number of mass school shootings in the U.S. since the year 1966 is 13. These crimes claimed the lives of 146 people in total. Obviously, 13 incidents in the last 56 years is a very different statistic than 27 incidents in the last few months. The two figures are so far apart because they measure separate things. One-off gun incidents are a serious problem in the U.S., and those taking place at schools are no exception. Mass casualty events, on the other hand, constitute less than 1 percent of all gun deaths. Suicides and non–mass-casualty murders—usually carried out with handguns rather than assault rifles—constitute the overwhelming majority of gun crimes.

They conclude:

Given the sheer horror of the violence in Uvalde this week, it's understandable that the public is interested in ensuring that such a thing never happens again. But for the policy debate to be fruitful, people need to understand the actual contours of the problem.

A pivotal, telling issue. kairosfocus

Vivid, I was meaning to go there, you scooped me. Good work. That means, we are seeing gross irresponsibility and disregard for truth, if not outright knowing big lie agit prop. That goes to policy maker and media credibility especially given the existing issue of elites with the blood of 63 millions on their hands, so we cannot trust them to rise above nihilism, cynicism, manipulation and hidden power aggrandisement agendas. In particular the techno plutocrats, their bought and paid for analysts, advisors and media agit prop and censorship operators have sought to foment a moral panic to advance an agenda that like the fabled vampire cannot stand the light of day. To do so, they have used the Marxist form of the Hegelian Dialectic, create a crisis atmosphere to define thesis and antithesis, demonise the other to drive and control a synthesis on their lawless ideological oligarchy terms. So, once that is in operation we must understand what is going on as just that, operations in the ongoing 4th gen agit prop, lawfare, street theatre and mob rule driven in the shadows so far civil war. That is, we are looking at subversion and subjugation under a nihilistic oligarchy. One that is benumbed through blood guilt at five times the scale of Hitler's holocaust. We would be well advised therefore to presume that any dominant narrative stories, incidents, issues, proposals and the like are driven by nihilism of the worst sort. The same nihilism that through despair and amoral anomie, is driving the mass shooting and gang movements. A nihilism that Plato long ago warned against as rotten fruit of evolutionary materialism (and its fellow travellers). Of course. studiously ignored by those pushing collapse of our civilisation in hope of remaking it in their fever dream utopian image. Never mind, the history of C20 showed the living nightmares that consistently emerged instead. To be forewarned is to be forearmed. KF PS: predictably it will be ignored but for record Plato's warning:

Ath[enian Stranger, in The Laws, Bk X 2,360 ya]. . . .[The avant garde philosophers and poets, c. 360 BC] say that fire and water, and earth and air [i.e the classical "material" elements of the cosmos -- the natural order], all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art . . . [such that] all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only [ --> that is, evolutionary materialism is ancient and would trace all things to blind chance and mechanical necessity; observe, too, the trichotomy: "nature" (here, mechanical, blind necessity), "chance" (similar to a tossed fair die), ART (the action of a mind, i.e. intelligently directed configuration)] . . . . [Thus, they hold] that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.-

[ --> Relativism, too, is not new; complete with its radical amorality rooted in a worldview that has no foundational IS that can ground OUGHT, leading to an effectively arbitrary foundation only for morality, ethics, so too justice, law and government: accident of personal preference, the ebbs and flows of power politics, accidents of history and and the shifting sands of manipulated community opinion driven by "winds and waves of doctrine and the cunning craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming . . . " cf a video on Plato's parable of the cave; from the perspective of pondering who set up the manipulative shadow-shows, why.]

These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might,

[ --> Evolutionary materialism -- having no IS that can properly ground OUGHT -- leads to the promotion of amorality on which the only basis for "OUGHT" is seen to be might (and manipulation: might in "spin"), opening the door to cynicism, hyperskepticism and nihilism . . . ]

and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions [ --> Evolutionary materialism-motivated amorality "naturally" leads to continual contentions and power struggles influenced by that amorality at the hands of ruthless power hungry nihilistic agendas], these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is,to live in real dominion over others [ --> such amoral and/or nihilistic factions, if they gain power, "naturally" tend towards ruthless abuse and arbitrariness . . . they have not learned the habits nor accepted the principles of mutual respect, justice, fairness and keeping the civil peace of justice, so they will want to deceive, manipulate and crush -- as the consistent history of radical revolutions over the past 250 years so plainly shows again and again], and not in legal subjection to them [--> nihilistic will to power not the spirit of justice and lawfulness].

Lessons of bloodily bought history. kairosfocus

FH, utterly irrelevant and BTW there is a drugs connected armed gang subculture. Montserrat;s security rests on the UK thence the now somewhat tattered special relationship with the rebel republic. Which BTW is eligible to join the Commonwealth. KF kairosfocus

Jerry @ 529 -

But again, why is this irrelevant?

It wouldn’t accomplish anything.

That still doesn't make it irrelevant. Did you mean "ineffective"? Bob O'H

Frinstance https://caribbean.loopnews.com/content/montserrats-police-announces-firearms-amnesty-period Fred Hickson

So, KF, what is the prevailing law regarding guns on Montserrat. Are there lessons to be learned? Fred Hickson

JH, all of which simply point to onward items on an agenda. I find, too, that many refuse to accept that they can get away with doing a lot of things because the US is carrying the main global security load; that also extends to playing with green economy fads, trace how many resources etc depend on US industries widely regarded as dirty. Similarly, China and Taiwan rspecially are carrying not a few dirty industries behind our high tech age including semiconductors, rare earth metals etc. Moves that alienate, polarise and undermine heartland support have direct implications for the US carrying that burden. Remember, there are always geostrategic vultures. KF kairosfocus

Actually, some do want to effectively ban private ownership of cars etc, see some issues under sustainability. This brings up the already studiously ducked policy issue, how does one decide policy when all relevant options both save and cost lives. The case study of mass vehicle ownership gives a good approach to understand policy dilemmas, including the hidden one of a policy/power elite imposing its will. Where, for the US that elite has 63 million victims of its abortion policy on its hands, alienating a large segment of population. kairosfocus

Even though one can never change the mind of a fabulist ,and even though one mass shooting is one to much, maybe others can appreciate a different perspective. https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2022/05/30/reason-magazine-reported-mass-shooting-numbers-highly-inflated/ Vivid vividbleau

I just heard that Canada is planning to invoke much stricter gun laws. Including a magazine limit of five shells, the ban and buy-back of many assault style weapons, and a ban on handguns except under very restrictive conditions. JHolo

JHolo: Are you suggesting that a bullet in the head of a black kid from a ghetto is less important that a bullet in the head of a white kid in Kansas? No. Why would you conclude that? I'm saying what criminals do with guns in the cities have no bearing on our gun rights out here in "Kansas." The city officials need to figure out what the root problems are, and fix them. They are resistant to do so, and so they bear the consequences. Not my problem to fix. Paxx

JHolo: Perhaps Chicago should look at what is happening in Toronto. The leftoids who run Chicago have no desire to deal with any root issues. The consequences are on them. Paxx

Paxx: Yes, certain areas of Chicago have a big problem. They need to do something about it. Their (anti) gun laws aren’t working.

Although far from perfect, Toronto appears to be faring better than Chicago. Perhaps Chicago should look at what is happening in Toronto. JHolo

JHolo: The same numbers for Chicago, a comparable sized city, ranged from 490 to 774. Yes, certain areas of Chicago have a big problem. They need to do something about it. Their (anti) gun laws aren't working. Paxx

Paxx: I beg to differ. I does matter when it comes to taking away rights of legitimate gun owners because of the actions of people within certain demographics.

I don’t get your point. Are you suggesting that a bullet in the head of a black kid from a ghetto is less important that a bullet in the head of a white kid in Kansas? The penalty for running a stop sign in outer BF Arkansas is the same as in NYC. Even though the risk is much lower for outer BF Arkansas. JHolo

JHolo: Don’t know. A person with a bullet in the head is a person with a bullet in the head, regardless of city and ethnic make up. I beg to differ. I does matter when it comes to taking away rights of legitimate gun owners because of the actions of people within certain demographics. If people want to shoot each other up at house parties in the "hood", that is not my problem. I'm not giving up my guns because of the actions of criminals in Commucrat controlled cities. In fact, you will find many law-abiding urban dwellers who agree in the USA. https://twitter.com/blkgunsmattr?lang=en Paxx

JHolo: U.S. marks Memorial Day weekend with at least 11 mass shootings "as defined by the Gun Violence Archive, a nonprofit research organization", says the WaPo article. One might think all these "mass shootings" were school shootings or something, by the way the headline reads. Most of these "mass shootings" were at house "parties" in sketchy parts of the cities attended by people of a criminal element and other assorted private squabbles. In other news, 450 people are dead in car crashes in the USA over the Memorial Day Weekend, including 55 teen drivers. Some of the crashes caused "mass deaths". I guess it's time to ban automobiles. The problem with your point of view, I suspect, JHolo, is that you don't seem to think that guns in the hands of private citizens have ligitimate purposes. A lot of people disagree. You're not going to change enough of their minds to make even a small dent in what, I suspect, is your agenda. Paxx

ET: Great point, dickless. Stop all gun ads on TV or the radio. People can find out all they want online.

I wasn’t aware that TV and radio were the only form of advertising. JHolo

Paxx: What are the gun murder stats in Canada by province? And broken down by city, rural, racial, socio-economic, age, family make-up variables ?

Don’t know. A person with a bullet in the head is a person with a bullet in the head, regardless of city and ethnic make up. But a quick search did find homicide rates in Toronto ranging between 93 and 145 between 2016 and 2020. The same numbers for Chicago, a comparable sized city, ranged from 490 to 774. JHolo

I have not seen a gun ad on TV nor heard one on the radio, in decades. I just figured they went the way of the cigarette ads. But then again, I live in a State in which you have to have a face-to-face interview with the local police before getting a gun permit. Great point, dickless. Stop all gun ads on TV or the radio. People can find out all they want online. ET

U.S. marks Memorial Day weekend with at least 11 mass shootings https://apple.news/A-sAXuUojS-iS9OTJO_EzbQ JHolo

Jerry: The differences are where most of the violence takes place. The similarities would have similar statistics on crime and violence. This would be true. And we have to be careful where we step here. Moreover, the county in which I reside, population 350,000, has very high household gun ownership. Gun violence, let alone gun murders, or murders of any kind, are exceptionally rare. We get maybe one armed robbery a year, committed by someone out of the area. (They always get caught by the police. Robbers just aren't very smart.) And people who don't live here are well aware this is a heavily armed county. And we aim to keep it that way. (Pun intended.) Paxx

JHolo, What are the gun murder stats in Canada by province? And broken down by city, rural, racial, socio-economic, age, family make-up variables ? I can't find them. Does Canada even publish this data? Paxx

Canada and the United States are no where close demographically. It does not take much to find this out. The differences are where most of the violence takes place. The similarities would have similar statistics on crime and violence. jerry

JHolo: Which begs the question why Mexico sued US gun manufacturers because of the illegal arms crossing into Mexico. Any arms crossing back into the US are just coming home. Reap what you have sown. This situtation, while a valid point, is not germane to what I wrote: USA borders Mexico. If serious gun control were attempted in the USA, it would create a massive illegal black market for guns, and criminals would always be able get them. China would have no trouble stepping into that wonderful opportunity and providing Mexico with whatever the cartels wanted, which would include providing black market guns in USA. While thinking about that, think about this: the Mormons who were murdered in Mexico in 2019 would loved to have had guns to fight back with. In Mexico, it is technically legal get own a firearm, but extremely difficult, given that there is literally only one retail store in the entire country, in Mexico City. This makes lawabiding citizens easy prey for the cartels. who for all intents and purposes, and despite window dressing to the contrary, call the shots in Mexico. Julián LeBarón, whose relatives were among nine Mormon women and children massacred in 2019, described the lawsuit as “the stupidest thing in the world” and called instead for Mexico to relax its strict gun laws. He described the lawsuit [against U.S. gun companies] as “the stupidest thing in the world” and called instead for Mexico to relax its strict gun laws. “We would have loved to have had guns to shoot back when they were killing the women and children." It's not the legal ownership of guns that are the problem in Mexico, it's the illegal usage of guns by those who don't care about the law, and the virtual prohibition of guns for the defenseless law-abiders. Paxx

Paxx: Meaningless without more variables. 2/3rd of gun deaths in the USA are suicides.

And more than 2/3rd of gun deaths in Canada are suicides.

Most gun murders occur in the inner cities and are related to drug and gang violence.

And 25% of gun deaths in Canada, and 40% of gun injuries in Canada occur in the urban centres and related to drug and gang violence. So, both countries have similar demographics for gun deaths. But Canada, because of more strict gun access laws, have much lower per-capita gun violence rates.

Canada’s population is less then the USA’s inner city areas where most gun murders occur.

That is why we look at per-capita numbers. And, btw, Canada has the fourth largest city in North America.

Canada does not have a gang problem like the USA. USA

Then why do the major Canadian cities have “guns and gangs” units?

I don’t know where you live,

Brisbane. But I grew up in Toronto. JHolo

What do you mean by advertising? Does it just mean no media advertising? Would signs on gun shops be ok. I live in New Hampshire and frequently pass shops that sell guns when driving around the state that have signs indicating what they have. How about advertising for gun shows? Direct mail? Does it mean business advertising? Gun manufacturers often advertise to potential military and law enforcement purchasers? Sig Sauer is a large local employer. What restrictions would be on them? I personally would be for restrictions on consumer ads in nearly all media. But someone interested has to have a way to find the right weapon for themselves. How about advertising for fire arm safety? For shooting ranges? I cannot remember ever seeing any but I am sure it exists. jerry

Paxx: USA borders Mexico. If serious gun control were attempted in the USA, it would create a massive illegal black market for guns, and criminals would always be able get them.

Which begs the question why Mexico sued US gun manufacturers because of the illegal arms crossing into Mexico. Any arms crossing back into the US are just coming home. Reap what you have sown. JHolo

JHolo: do you really think they have to be advertised? I don't know where you live, but I've never seen a gun advertised on TV in the USA. I've seen a lot of guns used in movie and games, funded, oddly enough, by Hollywood leftists. Maybe we should get rid of those venues that glorify illegitimate gun use. Do you need conventions, and gun shows? Why not? I find that a strange question. Should we ban car shows too just because someone commits mass murder with an SUV? https://apnews.com/article/suv-plows-into-parade-waukesha-wisconsin-injured-f8c6a9dcd420bc1f1a732afc7b10943aw While we're at it, should we ban teenage driving? About 4700 gruesome deaths by car crash occur every year among teenagers due to teen driving. 13 to 19 per day. Where is the outrage? Where are the protests? Why aren't the faces of the victims plastered all over the news media day after day? It seems there is some selective outrage going on with regards to gruesome (and unnecessary) teen deaths. https://www.cdc.gov/transportationsafety/teen_drivers/index.html Paxx

JH nothing wrong there for legitimate users; of which there are not many short of 100 million. KF kairosfocus

Relatd:

“Gun deaths per 100,000 people: -> US: 3.96 -> Canada: 0.47

Rather useless stat without more variables and context. 2/3rd of gun deaths in the USA are suicides. Most gun murders occur in the inner cities and are related to drug and gang violence. Canada's population is less then the USA's inner city areas where most gun murders occur. Canada does not have a gang problem like the USA. USA borders Mexico. If serious gun control were attempted in the USA, it would create a massive illegal black market for guns, and criminals would always be able get them. For these, and many other, reasons, guns are here to stay in the USA. Paxx

Paxx, that may be so, but do you really think they have to be advertised? Do you need conventions, and gun shows? JHolo

JHolo: Might I suggest a first step? What about banning all advertising for guns. We do it for cigarettes, another product known to cause death. Guns are not merely offensive weapons. There are 500,000+ defensive gun uses every year in the USA. I have personally been involved in three. When seconds count, the police are only minutes away. Paxx

ET: There are advertisements for guns?>/I>

Hey, dick. Are you really that willfully ignorant? JHolo

There are advertisements for guns? ET

I am not accusing you. I do have in mind some sickos and scapegallws who run a billion dollars so called industry. kairosfocus

Might I suggest a first step? What about banning all advertising for guns. We do it for cigarettes, another product known to cause death. JHolo

KF: JH, what????? Money shot is the winning shot in many games. It can also refer to the prize winning photo. I guess dirty minds will taint anything. What other words out there are calling 911 about being kidnapped?

Don’t shoot the messenger pal. If you want to keep using the phrase “money shot”, don’t let me stop you. In fact, given your reaction to my comment, please use it repeatedly. In fact, I will even tell everyone I know that you have the best “money shots” of anyone this side of the Atlantic. JHolo

Sev, epidemic of nihilism and connected despair. KF PS, Wiki testifies against itself:

Nihilism (/?na?(h)?l?z?m, ?ni?-/; from Latin nihil 'nothing') is a philosophy, or family of views within philosophy, that rejects generally accepted or fundamental aspects of human existence,[1][2] such as objective truth, knowledge, morality, values or meaning.[3][4] Different nihilist positions hold variously that human values are baseless, that life is meaningless, that knowledge is impossible, or that some set of entities do not exist or are meaningless or pointless.[5][6] . . . . he term is sometimes used in association with anomie to explain the general mood of despair at a perceived pointlessness of existence or arbitrariness of human principles and social institutions. Nihilism has also been described as conspicuous in or constitutive of certain historical periods. For example,[11] Jean Baudrillard[12][13] and others have characterized postmodernity as a nihilistic epoch[14] or mode of thought.[15] Likewise, some theologians and religious figures have stated that postmodernity[16] and many aspects of modernity[17] represent nihilism by a negation of religious principles. Nihilism has, however, been widely ascribed to both religious and irreligious viewpoints.[8] In popular use, the term commonly refers to forms of existential nihilism, according to which life is without intrinsic value, meaning, or purpose.[18] Other prominent positions within nihilism include the rejection of all normative and ethical views (§ Moral nihilism), the rejection of all social and political institutions (§ Political nihilism), the stance that no knowledge can or does exist (§ Epistemological nihilism), and a number of metaphysical positions, which assert that non-abstract objects do not exist (§ Metaphysical nihilism), that composite objects do not exist (§ Mereological nihilism), or even that life itself does not exist.

Connexions to irrationality and insanity are obvious. kairosfocus

ET, I did notice a pattern plot that showed that mass shootings tend to cluster. Now from your clip:

Jillian Peterson: On some level, we were waiting because mass shootings are socially contagious and when one really big one happens and gets a lot of media attention, we tend to see others follow . . . . Peterson: We don’t know for sure at this point, but our research would say that it’s likely. You had an 18-year-old commit a horrific mass shooting. His name is everywhere and we all spend days talking about "replacement theory." That shooter was able to get our attention. So, if you have another 18-year-old who is on the edge and watching everything, that could be enough to embolden him to follow. We have seen this happen before. Densley: Mass shooters study other mass shooters. They often find a way of relating to them, like, “There are other people out there who feel like me.”

So, what is their profile?

Peterson: There’s this really consistent pathway. Early childhood trauma seems to be the foundation, whether violence in the home, sexual assault, parental suicides, extreme bullying. Then you see the build toward hopelessness, despair, isolation, self-loathing, oftentimes rejection from peers. That turns into a really identifiable crisis point where they’re acting differently. Sometimes they have previous suicide attempts. What’s different from traditional suicide is that the self-hate turns against a group. They start asking themselves, “Whose fault is this?” Is it a racial group or women or a religious group, or is it my classmates? The hate turns outward. There’s also this quest for fame and notoriety. POLITICO: You’ve written about how mass shootings are always acts of violent suicide. Do people realize this is what’s happening in mass shootings? Peterson: I don’t think most people realize that these are suicides, in addition to homicides. Mass shooters design these to be their final acts. When you realize this, it completely flips the idea that someone with a gun on the scene is going to deter this. If anything, that’s an incentive for these individuals. They are going in to be killed. It’s hard to focus on the suicide because these are horrific homicides. But it’s a critical piece because we know so much from the suicide prevention world that can translate here.

I see a point but must disagree. Suicide bombers, Kamikaze pilots etc are not just suicidal, if they were they would kill themselves of in a corner. They also have a target and sense of mission, to go out in a sick glory. Logically, if they know their target is too hard, that would be an obvious deterrent. And reducing the injured or death toll to would be shooter, one . . . as just happened in West Virginia . . . is directly a reduction in harm done. As USN and British Pacific Fleet (yes there was one) did by massing 40 mm and 20mm guns. The second thing is we have to find a way to silence the aura of sick glory by blazing up in the media. A good first step is to avoid their names as much as possible in general media. Then, suicide is usually secondary to depression and perceiving a target group may reflect irrational paranoia. But the problem with the irrational is just that, they are unreasonable. Further to such, we need to deal with the bullying epidemic. Further along is the issue of institutionalisation of the insane needs to be revisited. I guess, more. This part goes off the rails as it is clear from the cases we are seeing that target hardening has not been properly carried out, compare the Israelis . . . where it has worked (in the face of existential threat):

Peterson: Post-Columbine there’s been this real focus on hardening schools — metal detectors, armed officers, teaching our kids to run and hide. The shift I’m starting to see, at least here in Minnesota, is that people are realizing hardening doesn’t work. Over 90 percent of the time, school shooters target their own school. These are insiders, not outsiders . . . . Densley: In Uvalde, there was an army of good guys with guns in the parking lot. The hard approach doesn’t seem to be getting the job done.

You had a blunder, a stand down order, riding on a blunder, a propped open door and classrooms that were not locked down given shooting in the close neighbourhood. So, we are back to sifting for what makes sense. KF kairosfocus

The connection to abortion is this- total disregard for human life. Then throw in the despair that climate alarmists promote and that leads to disturbed individuals. ET

Also, this has nothing to do with abortion or the collapse of Western civilization. This is about disturbed individuals and, ideally, detecting them before they get to the point of doing something. With hindsight, there were behaviors that should have raised red flags but apparently didn't. There are almost certainly others out there. Improving security in schools is certainly one response but parents, teachers and other students should be reporting any individuals that display alarming behaviors so that there can be interventions that could head off something much worse. Seversky

Kairosfocus/537

Now, let us hear a familiar British observer of the American scene, one I sometimes sharply differ with on substance and tone. Indeed, I apologise for tone in this but we need to hear:

I can't stand Piers Morgan but, in this case, he makes a good point. There have been cases where police officers have charged into a situation to stop an offense being committed and paid with their lives. Those in Uvalde not only failed the children in that school but dishonored the sacrifice of their brothers and sisters. Seversky

JH, what????? Money shot is the winning shot in many games. It can also refer to the prize winning photo. I guess dirty minds will taint anything. What other words out there are calling 911 about being kidnapped? KF kairosfocus

"A total disregard for human life"- "Death by Cop"- How do you prevent people with that mindset from doing harm? Obviously, you have to identify them, first. In Buffalo the shooter said he wanted a murder-suicide. And it was laughed away or ignored. Two Professors Found What Creates a Mass Shooter. Will Politicians Pay Attention? ET

No, but it provides a context. And if people are not aware of what's going on in the US by now, they're probably on a different planet. Seversky

JH, So what? I repeat. So what? That does not inform anyone about precisely what is going on in the United States, does it? "Gun deaths per 100,000 people: -> US: 3.96 -> Canada: 0.47 -> Australia: 0.19 -> New Zealand: 0.15 -> UK: 0.041 -> Japan: 0.021" relatd

KF: a money shot clip

I have seen you use this phrase a couple times. it originated in the film industry but I assume that you were unaware that this phrase was later adopted by the porn film industry. Out of decorum, I will not mention what it refers to, but I’m sure you can guess. I’m not trying to be critical, but knowing your moral values, I didn’t want you using this phrase without being aware of popular meaning. JHolo

Total failure: I Created the F.B.I.’s Active Shooter Program. The Officers in Uvalde Did Not Follow Their Training.. Two doors to every classroom allows students to run out one while the shooter is coming through the other. ET

Now, let us hear a familiar British observer of the American scene, one I sometimes sharply differ with on substance and tone. Indeed, I apologise for tone in this but we need to hear: https://nypost.com/2022/05/29/uvalde-shooter-salvador-ramos-is-not-the-only-one-to-blame-for-massacre/

Uvalde shooter wasn’t the only sniveling little coward — so were the cops By Piers Morgan May 29, 2022 12:16pm ‘Kids are getting murdered. Get in the room. End of story.’ This was one of several impassioned tweets posted in the last 24 hours by Rob O’Neill, the Navy SEAL Team Six hero who shot and killed Osama Bin Laden. Another read: ‘Hey cops, get in the room! The kids are calling you. Get in the [] room!’ And a third said simply: ‘I would never have left you alone, kids. I’m heartbroken.’ He wouldn’t. And if someone like O’Neill had been in Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas, last Tuesday, then I would have given the sniveling little coward of a shooter two hopes of surviving longer than a few seconds: no hope… and no hope. Yet incredibly, there were up to 19 armed police officers inside the school for 70 minutes before 18-year-old Salvador Ramos finished his hellish homicidal rampage. That’s one for each of the 9 and 10-year-old children who were murdered. These cops were all trained to use guns to protect the public and were all carrying guns to protect the public. But when the moment came to protect the youngest, most vulnerable and defenceless members of the public, they went AWOL . . .

More food for thought. Of course, Seal team Six is not on call, but within minutes up to 19 officers were literally just outside the room. Something went very wrong and needs to be addressed. KF kairosfocus

Next, a money shot clip from a CATO Institute 2012 study that shows the long since known pattern: https://danieljmitchell.wordpress.com/2012/02/07/new-cato-institute-study-shows-how-private-gun-ownership-reduces-crime-saves-lives/

If policymakers are truly interested in harm reduction, they should pause to consider how many crimes—murders, rapes, assaults, robberies—are thwarted each year by ordinary persons with guns. …This paper uses a collection of news reports of self-defense with guns over an eight-year period to survey the circumstances and outcomes of defensive gun uses in America. …the study by Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz…found that there were somewhere between 830,000 and 2.45 million defensive gun uses per year in the United States. …The National Survey of Private Ownership of Firearms (NSPOF) was performed in 1994. It…found approximately 1.5 million defensive gun uses. …The high-end figures on defensive gun uses may well suffer from exaggeration or outright lies. …Since the survey data has severe limitations with respect to defensive gun uses, collecting accounts of self-defense as they are reported in news outlets may be a better method of assessing the frequency and nature of self-defense with firearms. The data set supporting this paper is derived from a collection of news stories published between October 2003 and November 2011. …after Colorado’s 2003 concealed carry law was enacted, Colorado State University decided to allow concealed carry,while the University of Colorado prohibited firearms. The former observed a rapid decline in reported crimes, while the latter, under the gun ban they claimed was for safety,observed a rapid increase in crime. Crime at the University of Colorado has risen 35 percent since 2004, while crime at Colorado State University has dropped 60 percent in the same time frame. …Many people support gun control regulations because they are convinced that the average citizen is either incapable of using a gun in self-defense or will use the gun in a fit of anger over some petty matter. Those assumptions are false. The evidence on this point has grown so strong that even President Obama has had to chide gun safety advocates to accept the proposition that“almost all gun owners in America are highly responsible.”And, as the scores of incidents described in this study show, gun owners stop a lot of criminal mayhem—attempted murders, rapes, assaults, robberies—every year. …Policymakers interested in harm reduction should thus refrain from treating ordinary gun owners as hoodlums or loose cannons and adopt policies that respect the ownership and carrying of arms by responsible individuals.

Food for thought, in a country where, as I noted earlier, some time ago I saw the Western Front of WW1, 400 miles, superimposed on the map of Texas, it did not even span all of Texas. We should take clues from that. KF kairosfocus

Folks, its time for some further facts. Let us start with, no duty to protect: https://amgreatness.com/2022/05/28/no-duty-to-protect/

With every school shooting—covered prominently, though not commonplace as they may seem—comes a demand for surrender. And with each of these demands comes the refusal of the law-abiding citizen to forfeit his rights in the name of safety. For that safety, we now know—because we saw it with our own eyes—is subject to the timorous decisions of bureaucrats with guns and badges and terrible judgment. The real outrage is that the protectors—the “good guys with guns”—failed to protect. In fact, though they surely had the moral duty to save those 21 women and children, they did not have a legal or constitutional duty to do so, as the Supreme Court has said time and again. The police chose to hold back out of an abundance of caution—“officer safety” being the watchword. What’s worse, they prevented parents from entering the school at their own risk to rescue their own children.

Remember, abolish the police and acts to cripple police? Put that with what we just say. Mix in what was done to a couple who brandished one empty and one non functional firearm in the face of a crowd threatening arson and death while trespassing in part on private property. If the police have no duty to protect and people are disarmed in the face of red guard mobs much less nihilistic mad men seeking soft targets for mass murder, WHO is left to protect? Especially when, where seconds count for life/death, the police, demonstrably are minutes to an hour out. In this case, when they were literally outside the door. Even, with children trapped with the shooter calling 911 repeatedly and begging for intervention. Where, too, 23 years after Columbine showed that cordon and negotiate is no longer valid. Let me pause and clip on what the red guard mobs did: https://www.britannica.com/topic/Red-Guards

Red Guards, Chinese (Pinyin) Hongweibing or (Wade-Giles romanization) Hung-wei-ping, in Chinese history, groups of militant university and high school students formed into paramilitary units as part of the Cultural Revolution (1966–76). These young people often wore green jackets similar to the uniforms of the Chinese army at the time, with red armbands attached to one of the sleeves. They were formed under the auspices of the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) in 1966 in order to help party chairman Mao Zedong combat “revisionist” authorities—i.e., those party leaders Mao considered as being insufficiently revolutionary. Mao was thus making a bid to regain control of the CCP from his colleagues, but the Red Guards who responded in August 1966 to his summons fancied themselves as new revolutionary rebels pledged to eliminating all remnants of the old culture in China, as well as purging all supposedly bourgeois elements within the government. Several million Red Guards journeyed to Beijing to meet with Mao in eight massive demonstrations late in 1966, and the total number of Red Guards throughout the country may have reached 11 million at some point. While engaging in marches, meetings, and frenzied propagandizing, Red Guard units attacked and persecuted local party leaders as well as schoolteachers and school officials, other intellectuals, and persons of traditional views. Several hundred thousand people died in the course of these persecutions. By early 1967 Red Guard units were overthrowing existing party authorities in towns, cities, and entire provinces. These units soon began fighting among themselves, however, as various factions vied for power amidst each one’s claims that it was the true representative of Maoist thought. The Red Guards’ increasing factionalism and their total disruption of industrial production and of Chinese urban life caused the government in 1967–68 to urge the Red Guards to retire into the countryside. The Chinese military was called in to restore order throughout the country, and from this point the Red Guard movement gradually subsided.

Resemblance to mob tactics in 2020 are NOT coincidental. So, when you see the same factions backing mass slaughter of living posterity in the womb at 25,000 victims per week also backing riotous, murderous mobs, crying abolish the police and using every occasion to push for disarming the law abiding, we can and should draw our own conclusions. Especially when incidents that do not fit their narrative are suppressed from focal public discussion. See why I am highlighting that the situation is nonlinear and we may be headed for 1775 again? More . . . KF PS, observe how those pushing the dominant narrative respond or don't respond. kairosfocus

OK. Let’s look at the same countries: Homicide rate per 100,000

You make is so easy. You just fell into the trap. I claim you use only irrelevant statistics and then you jump in with irrelevant statistics. If you took the numbers for Canada, New Zealand and Australia and compared it to with where the US gun owners are, they would probably be higher. As I said I know where the gun deaths are. They are definitely there but they are not in any place similar to the countries you list. jerry

Jerry: Check out homicide rates by country. US way down list.

OK. Let’s look at the same countries: Homicide rate per 100,000: -> US: 4.96 -> Canada: 1.76 ->Australia: 0.89 -> New Zealand: 0.74 -> UK: 1.2 -> Japan: 0.26 The US homicide rates puts it in the same league as Lithuania, Angola, Kenya, Cuba, Kazakhstan and Sudan. JHolo

gun violence in different countries

Completely irrelevant. You refuse to deal with relevant issues. Why? That’s the interesting question. Check out homicide rates by country. US way down list. And in areas of US where most guns are it would be really low. https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/murder-rate-by-country What are they using to kill people in all these other places? If you are wondering why I am so sure, it’s because I’ve read books full of statistics on it. It’s so easy to disprove nearly everything the left advocates whether it’s on guns, crime, climate, race, gender, or other hot button issues. If what they propose were any good, conservatives would have recommended it a long time ago. Strange? No the left has different objectives and they don’t include the well being of people. Ironic thing, most liberals haven’t a clue about what’s going on. But it sounds good which is why elites on left advocate them and their useful idiots run with them. Aside: iD is only a minor issue to the left but this too is based on lies as we all know here. But it’s way down the list of what the left considers important. jerry

An interesting article on gun violence in different countries. https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2022-us-gun-violence-world-comparison/ The US is ranked amongst such shining beacons as Mali, Botswana, Namibia and Argentina. Here are a few numbers: Gun deaths per 100,000 people: -> US: 3.96 -> Canada: 0.47 -> Australia: 0.19 -> New Zealand: 0.15 -> UK: 0.041 -> Japan: 0.021 JHolo

It seems to work in most other countries.

Again, irrelevant. There is no other country in the world like the US both 1) in its ability to affect the bad guys from causing harm and 2) in its ethnic makeup that is causing the internal extremely localized violence. The economic success of the US draws people from impoverished countries with violent backgrounds to come here. Not true anywhere else to even close to the same extent. I suggest if you disagree on anything to point out where some other country exists. jerry

But again, why is this irrelevant?

It wouldn't accomplish anything. Taking away guns from people who will not use them to harm others is not going to stop people who will use them to harm others. It's token and irrelevant for two reasons. jerry

JH, is there a large drugs trade? Ans, yes. Can it smuggle guns? Ans, yes. How do I know, the automatic weapons in my homeland, every one, are illegal and that has been so since the Gold Street massacre, 1980. life in prison in the courts, likely death if in a shootout. About 100 miles from this town a similar situation is playing out in Mexico. The problem is criminality. KF kairosfocus

Jerry: It does not address the deterrent effect of guns in the hands of responsible people both from demented individuals or an oppressive government.

Or the deterrent effect of restricting the access to firearms. It seems to work in most other countries. JHolo

Jerry - I agree, we're arguing over what a small fraction is (in essence, whether enough guns would be removed from circulation to make a difference). But again, why is this irrelevant? Bob O'H

The USA has had gun buy-back programs, Bob. And no, buy-back programs do not ban guns. People handed in their shite, not their good weapons. ET

Read the first sentence of what I wrote

Which is

Part of Barry’s argument in the OP is that gun bans don’t remove guns from circulation

Here is what Barry said

1. There are hundreds of millions of guns in the US. 2. Even assuming for the sake of argument that it would be a desirable thing to do, no gun control law can eliminate all or even a small fraction of those guns.

You posted that NSW eliminated only a very small fraction of guns. So are we arguing over what a small fraction is? It sounds like we are arguing over whether a “t” has been crossed or not. I actually believe Barry is wrong. Gun control measures do reduce guns in certain areas. But I agree with him that the desired results are definitely not positive. As I said whatever the intent of your comment, irrelevant. Aside: commenters keep bringing up irrelevant issues. jerry

Not directly: it was the way it was used, i.e. enforcement and encouragement. As with any law, it's not enough to just have the law, it needs to be backed up with action. Bob O'H

It wasn't a gun ban law that removed the 2800 guns from new south wales ET

Ah, we're talking past each other. Read the first sentence of what I wrote: neither of the reasons you give are relevant to the issue of whether laws can remove guns from circulation. Bob O'H

in what way is it irrelevant

Multiple! By your own admission, it is trivial. It does not change the fact that this person wanted to kill someone. So It does not address the relevant problem. Could this murderer have found other ways to kill? They often do. It does not address the deterrent effect of guns in the hands of responsible people both from demented individuals or an oppressive government. It fails to recognize that the vast majority of guns are not used for violence. It is actually an indictment of those calling for the confiscation as they govern nearly all of the areas where gun violence takes place. Maybe those advocating for gun abolition should not be allowed to govern anywhere? jerry

Jerry - in what way is it irrelevant? Bob O'H

The short version: New South Wales police collected over 2800 firearms in the past 12 months

These have been tried several places in the US and have had similar effects. They are irrelevant so why make this comment?

improved background checks

Is anyone against a background check that would have prevented this murderer from having a gun? Until someone seriously addresses the actual issues all are talking past each other. That’s what people do here. Nobody enjoys losing a loved one unnecessarily but this emotional issue is the only constant one being raised. This type of occurrence have happened hundreds of millions of times since the world has began. It’s just when it becomes very visual/vivid, people don’t like it. If it’s hidden they are not upset. As I said this has nothing to do with guns killing innocent people. Innocent people are killed by the tens of thousands every day, often children, and no one cares. In fact the ones trying to get rid of guns because of the children advocate other positions that have killed children by the millions. Hypocrisy jerry

Part of Barry's argument in the OP is that gun bans don't remove guns from circulation. I've just seen this report mentioned on twitter. The short version: New South Wales police collected over 2800 firearms in the past 12 months. This was partly because they declared an amnesty so people could give in weapons that were illegal without consequences. Apparently there are about a million guns in NSW, so this is 0.28% of them. I wouldn't say that this on it's own would solve the gun problems, but would be part of the solution, alongside improved background checks, limits on the size of weapons and magazines, buybacks of any weapons that have just been made illegal etc. Bob O'H

ET, the teacher who propped the door may be one of the dead. The chief and remember this was an education district department, has some explaining to do. In the UK culture, he would have resigned. KF kairosfocus

Paxx, a key to this is, there were a lot of lockdowns tied to border smuggling; which ties to another policy debate and flash point. So there was likely lockdown/alert fatigue. Reportedly a teacher opened a normally locked back door and propped it open just a minute before the shooter used it and similarly 111 112 were not locked internally, allowing the shooter to capture the defences like the forts Vaux and Douaumont at Verdun; taking back was potentially costly. Of course all facilities must have a second exit in case of fire. And here we see that all options may save or cost lives. KF kairosfocus

PPPS, he also sent messages that pointed to dangers. Why was there no effective safety net for a troubled young man. kairosfocus

ET, in the Uvalde case, the shooter was living with grands. Apparently grandfather has a criminal, felony record. He not only cannot own a gun but cannot live in a house with a gun. So, the inference is the shooter sneaked the weapons. But this brings out that criminals will circumvent law. It also shows that there are many laws in place but the lawless will flout same. BTW, a very good question is how was this stuff paid for by whom and how did he get training, which may point in directions of a criminal subculture, likely drugs smuggling or the like but possibly even more horrific directions. KF PS, I see policy choice is still not being addressed: how does one choose in a case where every realistic alternative both costs and saves lives? With, mass private vehicular ownership as a classic case. Where, a hidden issue is the emergence of centralised state power that can easily pose principal agent dilemmas for the public. Of course it means on every branch of the multi- lemma you can be criticised by the agenda driven as not caring about lives. Nor is this new, it is a feature of Plato's parable of the cave and brings out the dangers of lawless manipulative oligarchy. PPS, the general public needs to be educated about Plato's parable and Luke's microcosm in Ac 27 to understand responsibilities of citizens officials, media etc in stabilising a sound constitutional democracy. I believe this also points to the issue of built in law thus centrality of the civil peace of justice marked by due balance of rights, freedoms and duties. The point that eternal vigilance is a cost of liberty and the duties of responsible independent media and experts to report soundly instead of spinning etc are also relevant. The matter of taking education captive and using it to manipulate also comes up. kairosfocus

JHolo: What restrictions on gun ownership would be acceptable to you? More of a wholistic solution would take care of a lot of issues: 1. Make the age of majority 21 years of age. 2. No alcohol and tobacco sales to those under the age of majority. 3. No gun sales to those under the age of majority. 4. No voting under the age of majority. 5. Make high schools as secure as airports and court houses. 6. Ban all social media for those under 20 years old. 7. No automobile licenses for those under 20 years old. 8. Harsh penalties, including immediate and final expusion, of public school bullies. That would be a good start. Paxx. Paxx

The person who propped open the door, and left it open, along with the police, need to go speak with the parents of the children and teachers murdered. ET

LoL! @ JHolo- all of your responses prove that you are a jerk. In Massachusetts you have to take a firearm safety course. You need to get a certificate saying that you passed. Then you need to set up and have an interview with the local police department. Face to face. All along there are background checks being done. Only after getting beyond those obstacles will you get an FID. Criminal free, over 21, responsible, accountable references- all checked off. Shake their tree of life and see if anything rotten comes out. Other than that we already have restrictions on the types of guns people can own, legally. ET

JH, lying again to set up a strawman. The reality is that there are policy choices -- too many of them -- where each option saves some lives but costs others. In some cases, the cost is not obvious. A good example is a similar case: mass private ownership of vehicles both costs and saves lives. What should policy be? Or, what would you say to the mother of a child mowed down by the driver in Wisconsin -- and an 8 year old was murdered by being mowed down -- that my right to have a car outweighs the life of your child. That is nonsense, but it is directly parallel. Lurking behind, is the trend to the all powerful state that turns freedoms and ownership into privileges granted at sufferance. Lawless oligarchy beckons. The dilemma you presented is false and the projection is a slander. KF kairosfocus

ET: I never said the right to own a gun is more important than any life. JHolo is just proud to be a coward.

Typically I don’t respond to those who are Incapable of communicating in a mature fashion, but I am intrigued. What restrictions on gun ownership would be acceptable to you? See if you can respond without sounding like a jerk. JHolo

I never said the right to own a gun is more important than any life. JHolo is just proud to be a coward. ET

Relatd- the people in charge of security will correct the failures, duh. ET

What I would be interested in is what KF, or ET, or Jerry, etc. would say to a mother of a child murdered by a mass shooter with regards to the right to own a gun being more important than the life of her child. OK, let me hear the discussion you would have with her. Maybe it would go something like this: “I’m sorry, but the need for the populace to defend itself against a government tyranny, which we have yet to see, far outweighs the right of your son/daughter to not to be shot by someone who has a gun purchased to prevent the tyranny of the government. My only wish is that the mother has a gun handy when you try to justify your beliefs. JHolo

To all reading - I'm not here to stop any discussion. I urge anyone who thinks they have good ideas that could save lives to contact those who can make those changes in the real world. Lives could be saved. relatd

Relatd, actually, I do but you and watching hostiles have no proper need to know. Ironically, you are projecting to others by assumption. You are also now using typical concern troll tactics of subject switching that serve to distract from and frustrate serious discussion. But that too is part of the key picture. Refocussing, this is directly analogous to mass private ownership of vehicles, which both costs and saves lives, and the power structures to block such liberty also costs lives, typically far more that such seems to save. So, one of the keystone policies of constitutional, representative democracy, is liberty unless there is manifest reason to restrict same without costing more than it purportedly saves. I think it was Franklin who noted that those who surrender freedom to gain safety end up with neither. Here, too, we need to reckon with the manifest issue of a nihilistic state with serious blood guilt warping policy making. Further to which, policy analysis towards soundness is not to be equated with empty talk. The Ship of state against backdrop of the Peloponnesian War and Luke's discussion of the ship's counsel at Fair Havens are deeply instructive; including the action of Mr Moneybags and his bought and paid for technico; a case where Bible Study is laying out key lessons of history and policy and consequences. including decision making under risk. I know for fact that had those lessons been heeded by policy leaders fifty years past my native land would not be where it is today. KF kairosfocus

You say this kind of thing a bit:

Because it’s true. I just repeat the obvious. Most are not interested in the obvious here. By the way I lived a year in New Zealand. In Christchurch. Several years ago. I have been to all 7 continents twice. jerry

KF at 500, You also have no idea. I suggest avoiding guesses and assuming things. It's a bit like hoping total strangers here are being read by anyone in a position to do something in real life, including any experts here. People want action, not talk. Do you understand? Action, carefully thought through and then implemented. The last incident like this resulted in no action. Investigation, yes, but no action. That's the point I'm making. relatd

Relatd, first, you have no idea who is directly or indirectly influenced through UD discussions. Second, you should already know that more or less the expert on the paradigmatic case, Columbine, is president of UD. Third, you are evading a key policy making issue that goes to the heart of cases like this: how do you decide when all relevant policy actions will BOTH cost and save lives? (I gave the example of mass private ownership of vehicles, which gives a focus to several issues including the fallacy of centralised policy wisdom and unintended consequences, thence costs of reversion to de facto oligarchy aka nomenklatura. That's before you get to what is actually at stake here, policy agendas and intent of a manifestly nihilistic power class tied to long trains of abuses and usurpations that incrementally compromise and undermine liberty: frog in a gradually heated pot. Let me add, consequences of the rise of legal positivism. Not to mention, create a crisis tactics highlighted by the contrast of Texas and Wisconsin.) KF PS, let me add, that when general consensus is not possible, balance of factions and formation of a critical mass is what decides vand sustains policy. Too often that is shaped by manipulation. A long time ago now I directed you to Ac 27 and/or Plato's parable of the ship of state. What have you drawn from these? kairosfocus

Jerry: You say this kind of thing a bit: "Because the US is unique in the developed world. No other developed nation comes close to having the ethnic makeup and financial attractions as the US. Literally half the world would like to live in the US – the only drawback is bringing their families." Do you actually know anything about the rest of the world? Are you familiar with the ethnic makeup of the countries the US might be compared to? Have you studied the rates of poverty and the standard of living stats in other countries? I am afraid, that if the rest of the world ever looked at the US as you imagine we do, that finished a long time ago. I won't say anymore, as I wouldn't want to offend any of the millions of marvellous people who call the US home (some of whom are very good friends of mine) but you are living in some glorious, fantastical, world of your imagination I'm afraid. TimR

There was a third attempted one stopped by a lady with a gun. kairosfocus

ET at 495, Exactly who will correct any failures? relatd

KF at 494, WHO is going to see any of the comments posted here? Policymakers? No "critical mass" is needed with this incident. This has happened before. If nothing gets done then nothing gets done. There is no formula for this. Those in a position to improve things will act but there is no guarantee of positive results going into effect based on previous incidents. relatd

We pointed out the failures in this discussion. The failures that led to 2 mass shootings in less than a month. And others have observed those failures, too. Next, we have to correct those failures. ET

Relatd, how long does it take to build critical mass for a policy analysis? What does that require? What happens when each policy option will cost, especially lives? [For example, extensive private ownership of vehicles both saves and costs lives.] KF kairosfocus

Relatd@492, a very good point. It appears that no lives are saved after any mass shooting, regardless of the millions of words expended. And it is a certainty that nothing said here will make a damn bit of difference. Within a month or two we will be reading about another mass shooting at a school. JHolo

An observation at this point in the "discussion." How many live were saved because of this discussion? relatd

Drop-side cribs we’re banned when they were blamed for 32 infant deaths. Rub bumpers were banned in many states because they contributed to 48 baby deaths. Baby and infant car seats are highly regulated due to past safety concerns. BPA and phthalates banned for baby products due to risk. JHolo

Kinder Surprise eggs are banned in the US because the toy inside poses a choking hazard. In spite of no American kids ever choking on one. Cracker Jacks stopped putting the toys in the boxes because of the risk of kids choking. Lawn darts and clackers have been banned because of potential risk to kids. Lead based paints are banned because lead is sweet, and a strong neurotoxin, and infants used to chew on windowsills because of the sweet taste. We are quick to act when we identify products that pose a risk to our kids. And rightly so. But AR15 style guns, which have been used to kill numerous kids, are still allowed. JHolo

JH, your credibility, for cause, is now nil. KF kairosfocus

Sev: If a defense of the private ownership of AR-15 type rifles is that it will enable an armed citizenry to resist tyranny I would suggest that is somewhat far-fetched in this day and age.

If I am reading this correctly, resisting government tyranny appears to be the justification. What is ironic is that the same people who oppose any gun control, also supported the only president in recent history who wanted to use the army against the citizens. JHolo

Sev, do you understand that if the balloon goes up through obstinately reckless nihilistic policy leading to clear existential threat, the military and police will split? And, existential threat is general threat, so claims implying lawless excuseless uprising are moot, cf 1775 - 6. Further to which, you are looking at Balkan style disintegration and a spiral into chaos. Then, there will be geostrategic vultures waiting to pounce. We already see evidence China is moving closer to a move on Taiwan towards the sort of blue ocean breakout the Germans sought in two world wars. A real mess. KF PS, semi automatic rifles are not oddities. I suspect they may now be about the most common ones. kairosfocus

/ If a defense of the private ownership of AR-15 type rifles is that it will enable an armed citizenry to resist tyranny I would suggest that is somewhat far-fetched in this day and age. The armed forces of the United States include infantry trained, armed and equipped for a modern battlefield. Apart from semi-automatic pistols and M4/M5 assault rifles they can also call upon squad automatic weapons (SAW) or general-purpose machine-guns (GPMG), heavy machine-guns such as the Browning .50 caliber, light mortars and a variety of shoulder-launched guided-missiles. They can be transported to the battlefield in armored infantry fighting vehicles armed with automatic cannon of 20mm caliber and upwards. They will be supported by main battle tanks armed with 120/130mm cannon. They can call on fire support from light, medium and heavy artillery and multiple-launch rocket systems. They can call on air support from helicopter gunships and ground-attack aircraft armed with automatic cans and guide missiles. Anyone who thinks that having an AR-15 and a couple of thousand rounds of ammunition is going make a serious difference against the firepower and tactics of a modern army has been taking Red Dawn way too seriously. The wounds inflicted by the high-velocity 5.56mm rounds fired by AR-15s are truly horrific and there is no justification for such firepower on self-defense grounds. If you must carry a firearm for personal protection, the 9mm pistol or carbine or the 12-gauge shotgun are more than sufficient. As for Heller, this summary of the decision reads in part as follows:

(f) None of the Court’s precedents forecloses the Court’s interpretation. Neither United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U. S. 542 , nor Presser v. Illinois, 116 U. S. 252 , refutes the individual-rights interpretation. United States v. Miller, 307 U. S. 174 , does not limit the right to keep and bear arms to militia purposes, but rather limits the type of weapon to which the right applies to those used by the militia, i.e., those in common use for lawful purposes. Pp. 47–54. 2. Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues. The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms. Miller’s holding that the sorts of weapons protected are those “in common use at the time” finds support in the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons. Pp. 54–56.

One again, society has both a right and a duty to protect the rights of all citizens from the harmful exercise of a particular right by one group of citizens. Seversky

ET, yes. Further to which, I am putting a hidden agenda road map on the table. Existential threat is a serious question that some refuse to recognise. Should I mention the STEN is so easy to make the Polish underground manufactured it in occupied Poland? We are talking controls on every machine shop, mechanics shop, even garage with machine tools. KF kairosfocus

PS, to further document my point, Wikipedia testifying against interest:

The Charlton automatic rifle was a fully automatic conversion of the Lee–Enfield rifle, designed by New Zealander Philip Charlton in 1941 to act as a substitute for the Bren and Lewis gun light machine guns which were in severely short supply at the time. Description The original Charlton automatic rifles were converted from obsolete Lee–Metford and magazine Lee–Enfield rifles dating from as early as the Boer War,[1] and were intended for use as semi-automatic rifles with the full-automatic capabilities retained for emergency use.[2] It used the 10-round Lee–Enfield magazines and modified 30-round Bren magazines. The weapon was never intended for use as a frontline combat weapon, instead being designed and adopted primarily for the New Zealand Home Guard.[3] There were two versions of the Charlton: the New Zealand version, as designed and manufactured by Charlton Motor Workshops in Hastings, and a version produced in Australia by Electrolux, using the SMLE Mk III* for conversion.[4] The two designs differed markedly in external appearance (amongst other things, the New Zealand Charlton had a forward pistol grip and bipod,[5] whilst the Australian lacked this, making it lighter and cleaner in appearance[6]), but shared the same operating mechanism. Approximately 1,500 Charlton automatic rifles were manufactured in New Zealand

Description https://www.forgottenweapons.com/charlton-automatic-rifle/ KF kairosfocus

It isn't my fault that the lefties can't see the problem. Abortions are nothing but a mass slaughter of our most innocent and vulnerable. That has consequences. The media over-hyping climate alarmism also has consequences. And, AGAIN, mistakes were made in Texas. That JHolo and JVL refuse to understand that, speaks volumes. ET

JH, doubling down on lying. This is what you said, after hundreds of comments which would have made any responsible person know better:

if you choose to hold the safety of school children, concert goers, shoppers, theatre goers and many others hostage to your demand to make abortions illegal, that is your choice.

First, why should such people be hostage to a demand to "make" abortions illegal? Ans, an implied threat of onward attacks on such places. That is, my pointing out that attempted disarmament will be taken as an existential threat i/l/o an existing pattern of nihilistic behaviour has been wrenched. Second, abortion on demand is already an intrinsic crime, willful shedding of innocent blood here under colour of law, enabled by a state to the tune of 25,000/week, cumulatively 63 million. One does not make it a crime, one cannot unmake it a crime, it is criminal by its very nature. (That there may be very rare cases where in effect self defence may apply does not invalidate this point.) Third, the actual point made is that acts under false colour of law -- now admitted by a later generation of Supreme Court Judge -- backed up by resistance to attempted correction, are already a long train of abuses and usurpations. In the cause of the onward slaughter of millions that enables the far worse global toll a million per week. Posing on rights, rulings under colour of law and claimed power of choice over one's body -- half the time the unborn child is not the same sex as his mother -- cannot change an inherent crime. Fourth, a state with a bloody track record like that has forfeited the presumption of good intent. Hence, long train of abuses and usurpations. Accordingly,

We hold these truths to be self-evident, [cf Rom 1:18 - 21, 2:14 - 15; note, law as "the highest reason," per Cicero on received consensus], that all men are created equal [--> note, equality of humanity], that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights [--> thus there are correlative duties and freedoms framed by the balance], that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security . . .

Fifth, it is further speech with disregard to truth on your part that disarmament is not intended. There is obvious wish to make entire categories of weapons illegal and to confiscate, as has been directly implied by slanderous statements of officials about the made up term, assault weapons etc. BTW, in WW2, it was shown that bolt action rifles can be modified into automatic weapons, and Browning's first machine gun modified a lever action mechanism, and obviously powder for a muzzle loading single shot weapon can be used as a bomb so once precedent is set, there is no limit. Sixth, I have good reason to infer that a nihilistic state cannot be trusted and will not be trusted by those who have seen the long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing designs of lawless oligarchy. Seventh, I have every right to point out the nonlinearities and potential catastrophies including highlighting history and my own experience in my homeland where confiscation, tight regulation and state of emergency measures were undertaken for decades. Eighth, in that context, I have the further right to point to what on the pattern of Israel etc, could work. In the case in West Virginia, did work; in Texas, manifestly could have worked. KF kairosfocus

KF, you are either incapable of reading for content or you are willfully misrepresenting what I have said. I hope it is the former. I have repeatedly said that I am not proposing disarming the US citizens, except in cases where they obtained their weapons illegally, used them or stored them inappropriately, have a criminal record, or illegally modified them. For all future sales their should be a waiting period, a background check, limits on the style of weapon and capacity. Obviously there is no point in me trying to further discuss this with you as you have clearly demonstrated that you are unwilling to make an attempt to understand the arguments presented and will only accept agreement. That does not make for a productive and constructive discussion. I wish you well. JHolo

PS, on Shire Reff or Reeve: https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Shire+reeve

The modern office of sheriff in the United States descends from a one-thousand-year-old English tradition: a "shire-reeve" (shire-keeper) is the oldest appointment of the English crown. Because county governments were typically the first established units of government in newly settled American territories, sheriffs were among the first elected public officials in an area and thus developed a leading role in local law enforcement. A dichotomy frequently exists today between a sheriff's jurisdiction and the jurisdiction of a local police department. A metropolitan area may encompass an entire county or more; police departments and sheriffs will often maintain concurrent jurisdiction in the overlapping area. A sheriff may assume that a local police department will do its duty in enforcing the law, but the primary obligation rests with the sheriff and requires him to act when evidence of neglect of that duty exists. Some state constitutions specifically provide for the office of sheriff, and state legislatures frequently establish conditions of office. Sheriffs are typically chosen in a county election. To serve as sheriff, an individual must usually meet certain requirements: residence within the jurisdiction, no criminal record, U.S. citizenship, and compliance with provisions guarding against nepotism. Sometimes officeholders must also satisfy certain age, physical, and educational requirements. A sheriff typically takes an oath and posts a bond upon taking office to ensure the faithful performance of the duties of the office. Compensation typically consists of commissions or fees for particular services performed, a fixed salary, or a combination of fees and salary. State statutes or state constitutions regulate many duties of a sheriff and emphasize preserving the peace and enforcing criminal laws. Sheriffs arrest and commit to jail felons and other lawbreakers, including pretrial detainees and sentenced prisoners. They transport prisoners to state penal facilities and mental patients to state commitment facilities. In addition, a sheriff is usually responsible for the custody and care of the county courthouse and the jail, attends upon courts of record in serving process, and often has the power to summon jurors. As an officer of the court, a sheriff is subject to a court's orders and direction. Sheriffs also have the power to serve process, including summons, mesne (intermediate) process, and final process . . .

kairosfocus

JH, barefaced lying and slander, by projection of attitudes that are not there as should be obvious to any responsible lawful person. I cannot convince you that attempted disarmament on the scale required would not work and would trigger an existential threat response causing chaos in the US and horrific geostrategic consequences globally, but that is because of your willful refusal to listen. I have also taken time to inform you of what happened with decades of extreme measures in my native land, measures that have failed as admitted by no less a figure than Trinity the most deadly cop of all. The demonisation you project is further demonstration of the underlying reason why the disarmament push will predictably trigger a 1775 style existential threat response. I suspect the British Governor did not understand that Massachusetts had faced Indian War, and thought he could round up a few rebels and destroy their arsenals. Instead he got civil war, then world war that Britain could not win so cut its losses by ceding the Americans their declared independence. I outlined that history above, but of course you ignored it. Disarmament is a reckless pipe dream, but target hardening, mobilising the militia and taking every violent offence with a weapon or potential weapon (to include vehicles and fertiliser or kitchen knives viewed as ersatz bayonets) as an offence under UCMJ with trial by court martial is quite feasible. Democratic accountability would come through coordination with the county shire reffs [= sheriffs] , local state legislatures and the federal Govt acting under Constitution. Already, every able bodied man of relevant age is a member of the unorganised militia and is subject to conscription. Your lies show disregard for truth, right reason, prudence and fairness, reflecting the lawlessness of evolutionary materialistic scientism and fellow travellers, which opens the door to nihilism and lawless oligarchy. You stand exposed. KF kairosfocus

F/N: At about the same time . . . https://wchstv.com/news/local/victim-hospitalized-in-charleston-shooting

Police: Woman with pistol killed man who shot at crowd of people in Charleston by STAFF REPORTSWednesday, May 25th 2022 Police said a woman who was lawfully carrying a pistol shot and killed a man who began shooting at a crowd of people Wednesday night in Charleston. Dennis Butler was killed after allegedly shooting at dozens of people attending a graduation party Wednesday near the Vista View Apartment complex. No injuries were reported from those at the party. Investigators said Butler was warned about speeding in the area with children present before he left. He later returned with an AR-15-style firearm and began firing into the crowd before he was shot and killed. “Instead of running from the threat, she engaged with the threat and saved several lives last night,” Charleston Police Department Chief of Detectives Tony Hazelett said. Officers did not go into detail, but said Butler did have an extensive criminal history. Hazelett said no charges will be filed against the woman.

This was what, the day after the TX incident but it does not fit the obvious narrative. It does fit the pattern seen from Wisconsin, of the growth of a violent criminal subculture that is not going to go poof if the general public are disarmed. KF PS, as for, oh we regulate fertiliser, firearms are also heavily regulated. In Israel, the requisites of suicide bombings are heavily regulated or outright illegal, but that did not stop the rise of a campaign. Similarly, for gun attacks. Right now the UK is busy trying to regulate knives and there have been headlines about knife crime. BTW, it is shockingly easy to make explosives with a reasonable knowledge of Chemistry. Fuzes and detonators are accessible from chem and electronics, with cheap computing power I shudder at what can be done. Where of course we must not forget the fly in bombings of 9/11. kairosfocus

KF and ET, if you choose to hold the safety of school children, concert goers, shoppers, theatre goers and many others hostage to your demand to make abortions illegal, that is your choice. Unethical and immoral, but still you have the freedom to make that choice. Personally, I prefer to address the problem at hand. Which is the disproportionate mass shootings and gun violence in the US. JHolo

JH, on the contrary the issues are directly connected, as was repeatedly pointed out, just ignored studiously. Your denial does not change that. A government that instituted democide now at 63 million under false colour of law, fighting every attempt to stop the holocaust is now pushing to disarm the heartland, where "coincidentally" the centre of opposition to the ongoing democide is. Such a government is nihilistic, lawless and has shown a long train of abuses and usurpations, being resistant to remonstrance. No wonder disaffection has set in, and attempted mass disarmament of the public and demonisation of those who would object, in the further context of power backed red guards and dirty elections will not trigger meek compliance, it will pass the existential threat red line. The situation is non linear and unstable, KF kairosfocus

JHolo- You don't understand logic. And your quote-mining underscores your cowardice. ET

ET: Since Columbine millions of abortions have ended the lives of humans.

A well known debating strategy when your logic on the issue is not sound id to attempt to conflate the issue with an unrelated issue. JHolo

We have basic gun control regulations. And in the USA it is the responsibility of each STATE to regulate the guns there. ET

KF: Sounds familiar?

And is completely unnecessary if the US would simply implement some very basic gun control legislation. JHolo

Fred Hickson:

The comparison between ammonium nitrate and an assault weapon is apt.

Not really. People can still buy ammonium nitrate. And they can store it. All that is needed is planning. But that is moot as basic chemistry allows us to produce explosives at home. Next up- restrict teaching chemistry. Since Columbine millions of abortions have ended the lives of humans. And yes, there is a connection. We cannot have the senseless slaughter of our most innocent and vulnerable and then complain about gun violence. It is beyond hypocritical. But the left is full of hypocrites. ET

F/N: Israel https://www.foxnews.com/politics/uvalde-shooting-israel-school-security-methods-model-us Israel is on the front lines and has demonstrated many effective methods, paid for in blood. In a world of nihilistic blood lust, let us listen, on BA's point 7:

There have been six terrorist attacks on Israeli schools since 1974. That low figure can be explained by the multiple layers of security Israel employs and the engagement of civil society in aiding the nation's law enforcement. David Hazony, a writer, and commentator on Israeli and American affairs and a father to eleven children, told Fox News Digital that the country "puts effort into identifying potential assailants through behavioral profiling." Israel could not prevent attacks if its efforts were based solely on armed security guards at each school, he said. Israel "invests heavily in monitoring profiles of people," Hazony continued. It has a "complex, multi-layered approach" to security that uses intelligence networks to examine the acquisition of weapons and social media activity, he said. Yigal Arbiv, who was in charge of security at Tchernichovsky Junior High School in the Israeli coastal city of Netanya for 16 years, told Fox News Digital it is important that the "head of security [for a school] be given authorization to do everything" to provide safety for the children and staff . . . his system employed a "spotter 50 meters from school" who patrolled the area and kept an eye out. Visitors to the school "could only come from one direction," he said. A fence surrounds the school and cameras are in place all over the facility. "Hot spots" can be manually activated when a problem arises, sending a message to the head of security and staff, said Arbiv, who now runs the Israeli Krav Maga & Security Training company (I.K.M.A). "Everyone who goes into the school needs to go through a metal detector, like at an airport, and sign his name," the security expert said, adding that the "school has one exit and one entrance… nobody comes to the school without the head of security knowing about it. We do not allow people not connected to school to come inside." There are also "barricades around the school, so people can’t drive into it," he said. Palestinian terrorists have used vehicles to carry out ramming attacks in Israel. Arbiv, who said he has trained police in the U.S., added that a large school compound also requires a guard on a motorcycle.

Later, we see:

Another idea gaining traction is a volunteer force to add more security to schools. Leading that effort is Brig. Gen. (Res.) Amir Avivi, the founder and CEO of the Israel Defense and Security Forum (IDSF) NGO. He told Fox News Digital that, "At every school in Israel you have a guard at the entrance monitoring people entering."

Sounds familiar? KF kairosfocus

One of the most prescient articles written period. Came out on Friday. https://newideal.aynrand.org/fossil-future-a-powerful-must-read-defense-of-fossil-fuels/ It is about Climate change and the hypocrisy around the debate. This debate is similar to the hypocrisy on the gun debate or the evolution debate. Could be applied to the race or gender debate or debate over women or any identity politics. Contains an ethical system based on truth and humans. Written by an Ayn Rand advocate so it cannot be religious. Aside: I am currently reading/listening to Epstein's book now. He describes himself as a philosopher and as such one who understands truth. We waste out time here taking the anti ID people seriously. They are clowns but yet much of the comments are used to answer their banality. jerry

OT @ KF Michael Manley. I see he is still regarded with affection by many Jamaicans. Fred Hickson

The comparison between ammonium nitrate and an assault weapon is apt. Why restrict and monitor sales of the one and not the other? Where's the logic? Fred Hickson

VB: California is leading the way. [banning books]

Actually, Texas, Pennsylvania, Florida, Oklahoma, Kansas and Tennessee lead the pack.

Texas came in first as the state with the largest number of book bans at 713, followed by Pennsylvania with a striking 456 bans, Florida with 204, Oklahoma with 43, Kansas with 30 and Tennessee with 16, according to the report. https://thehill.com/changing-america/respect/equality/3261964-the-five-states-with-the-most-book-bans/amp/

But, regardless, all banning books does is makes sure that kids read them. JHolo

Here is a fact I was unaware of:

At present, federal laws prohibit analytic studies designed to test hypotheses concerning the epidemic of mortality from firearms among US schoolchildren.

Also from the same paper:

We believe that combatting the epidemic of mortality from firearms among US schoolchildren without addressing firearms is analogous to combatting the epidemic of mortality from lung cancer from cigarettes without addressing cigarettes.

https://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002-9343(19)30176-7/pdf JHolo

“saw this on FB and thought it was very appropriate. “Not a single kid has died in a mass reading, yet they’re banning books instead of guns.” California is leading the way. https://www.newsweek.com/kill-mockingbird-other-books-banned-california-schools-over-racism-concerns-1547241 Vivid vividbleau

This data comparing gun deaths of children by country is a couple years old but it speaks for itself. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2722599/figure/f1-pch10473/?report=objectonly JHolo

I saw this on FB and thought it was very appropriate.

“Not a single kid has died in a mass reading, yet they’re banning books instead of guns.”

JHolo

PS, hanging, at the rate of two to four, seemingly every Tuesday and Thursday for years until the Governor General got sick of it did not work either. Other than I suppose removing some from the system. On the streets, the police became deadly, many many were shot by police. Trinity was the most notorious case try https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqlFCX3vMJ4 . Listen to interview with Mutabaruka https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXZdWcpukOY kairosfocus

F/N: The [formerly] red because it is dread Gun Court https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_Court which started with a sentence of indefinite detention. Yes effective prisoner of war status under machine guns and barbed wire. This went with a state of emergency and search seizure powers that your constitution would never tolerate, literally for decades. Gun ownership is extremely tightly restricted and by licence. I clip:

The Gun Court is the branch of the Jamaican judicial system that tries criminal cases involving firearms. The court was established by Parliament in 1974 to combat rising gun violence, and empowered to try suspects in camera, without a jury. The Supreme Court, Circuit Courts, and Resident Magistrate's Courts function as Gun Courts whenever they hear firearms cases. There is also a Western Regional Gun Court in Montego Bay. Those convicted by the Gun Court are imprisoned in a dedicated prison compound at South Camp [Road] in Kingston. Until 1999, the Gun Court sessions were also held in the same facility. The long sentences of the Gun Court and its restrictions on the rights of the accused have given rise to constitutional challenges, some of which have been appealed to the Privy Council in London. These cases have resulted in some modifications to the court, but have upheld it on the whole. The Gun Court system has also been the target of criticism because of its lengthy delay in hearing cases, and the continuing rise in gun violence since its adoption.

In short, it became overwhelmed, was expanded and is still overwhelmed. The only thing I knew that worked was an evangelist who went there and preached. V T, formerly the worst young gunman in his part of Kingston was converted. He taught himself to read, set up a school in the Court, eventually became a college student while still there. Yes, he was let out on mornings, given bus fare etc and went to the then CAST in Papine. After a year he was released and was Christian Fellowship Vice President there when I met him. The reality is the only proved means of transforming an entrenched violent criminal culture and its hardened members is revival and reformation. Precisely what the rabid secularists do not want to hear anything about. Much more can be said. KF kairosfocus

JH, you just went into needless personal offensiveness territory on a point I have already pointed out. Your projection is an outrageous accusation to someone who just lost a cousin to precisely such. A former superintendent of prison in a shop attacked by criminals singled out and murdered doubtless for revenge, in a society with highly restrictive gun ownership and backed by policing and military efforts of the UK. I do not need to more than point to the above outline on my homeland to underscore why I doubt the sorts of remedies on offer. As to the parallels to 1775 and other linked issues, I think some rethinking by those who imagine themselves progressive is in order but fear that we are going to have to learn the hard way again as usual. With the geostrategic issues at stake, we can ill afford such. But then the progressives of the 20s and 30s could not imagine the disaster they were courting, or that that discredited dinosaur Churchill who failed at Gallipoli could be right. KF kairosfocus

Vivid, Lott's observation that heartland, rural regions tend to both higher firearms ownership and lower crime than urban zones with fairly large criminal populations should be obvious. I come from a state where nearly 50 years ago drastic state of emergency powers were put in place and sustained for many years only to see civil war, drug trade and protection racket fuelled warlordism, repeated outbreaks of civil conflict, a case where in effect military invasion and occupation had to be resorted to and sustained high rates of murder that make anything in the US look pale by comparison. The sort of patterns surrounding the November car attack case sound all too familiar. The reality is entrenched violent crime is tied to societal breakdown and resists efforts to contain or eliminate it and to reform society. That includes fairly drastic measures. Gun confiscation from lawful citizens is unlikely to have effect on that, and may trigger a 1775 given issues I pointed out. You are already seeing increasing disaffection. KF kairosfocus

KF: JH, the clustering is misleading as it clearly includes gang war issues.

I’m sure that little tap-dance is comforting to the parent of a child with a bullet in its head. Here’s another little fact. Since Columbine, 169 kids have been killed in US mass school shootings. Restrictions were placed on the sale and storage of ammonium nitrate after 168 people were killed in Oklahoma. How many more kids have to be killed before you admit that reasonable controls on firearms should be examined. JHolo

JH, the clustering is misleading as it clearly includes gang war issues. And organised criminality is extraordinarily resistant to confiscation of legal firearms or tight restrictions on same, even to pretty drastic police and military operations, you can end up looking at in effect a guerilla war. Ask the Mexicans about that for just one example. Or ask soldiers who were in Afghanistan about why the US was defeated. KF kairosfocus

JVL, first we can look at fairly conventional operations now in progress in Ukraine, in Europe and note the escalated threat to Taiwan and Japan. The nuke emergence in Iran is there. You have forgotten settlement Jihad in France and earlier stages in Germany and Britain. (On 9/11, stirred to search, I became aware of a 100 year global plan of Radical Islam, along with plans for nukes, since taken down.) Chinese moves in Africa and elsewhere come to mind. There is a clear long term global geostrategic contest. The playout across the ME speaks to much the same. And more. KF PS, you still have no answer to the fatal disaffection issue that is on the table, the situation is highly nonlinear. In 1775 the British Governor of Massachusetts clearly did not imagine that he was triggering not only civil war and revolution but world war with operations as far away as off India. When a line of militia were confronted and dispersed then a stockpile of arms was destroyed it looked like a win. Only, to meet with a much wider uprising to arms that led to withdrawal from Massachusetts and wider fighting on the army in being model where defeats did not lead to surrender. . Studies from well behaved relatively small cases have no ability to scale to what happens when a people accustomed to liberty perceive an existential threat. kairosfocus

This is what the US is willing to live with. https://s3.amazonaws.com/chartprod/AMPbbsYxR7Zw8stdr/thumbnail.png JHolo

“No lessons learned.” I disagree. 1) Relying on the Calvary to defend you is a pipe dream. 2) We defend our President with guns, we defend our celebrity’s with guns,,we defend our banks with guns, we defend our courts with guns, we defend our jewelry stores with guns, we defend our sporting events with guns, etc. 3) Our schools are gun free zones! How does that make sense? 4) One secured entrance double trap doors monitored by armed security. 5) Quit giving billions to the Ukraine and fund school security. Vivid vividbleau

“However, the empirical evidence for the relationship between the level of firearm ownership and the incidence of criminal activity, albeit extensive, remains controversial. When considering homicide, one summary of the literature claimed that “levels of general gun ownership appear to have no significant net effect on rates of homicide.”4 By contrast, other studies have demonstrated an association between firearm availability and homicide,5, 6 with a review concluding that “the available evidence is consistent with the hypothesis that increased gun prevalence increases the homicide rate.”7 “Finally, these data do not allow investigation of the temporal association between firearm ownership and crime rates. Elevated crime rates could have motivated the private acquisition of firearms in the interest of self-defense and protection. The longitudinal analysis showing that firearm ownership in 2001 predicts crime in later years provides some assurance about the direction of the effect, but is not adequate to completely rule out the possibility of reverse causation. Given the methodologic limitations of this study, especially those inherent in its ecologic design, this study should be replicated with more recent, individual-level data, as recently “ Vivid vividbleau

JVL I read your article and it made a lot of claims such as the one about gun ownership and gun violence, the state of Wyoming disproves,that. but it was short on facts. And they omitted the fact that states and cities with the most restrictive laws have the highest rates of gun violence. Indeed more young men and woman will be shot in Chicago this weekend probably. I am not disputing your article, or calling you or the authors liars however I would like to see the actual data they based their conclusions on. Will go back and reread it.Do you dispute the claim that cities and states that have the most restrictive gun laws are the most violent? Vivid vividbleau

More useless discussions? In summary: No lessons learned. No improvements made. And most importantly, NO lives saved after all this vague discussing. relatd

Vividbleau: If stricter gun laws reduced gun violence rates, you’d expect jurisdictions with those laws to have lower rates of gun violence. Are you saying the results of the research cited in the article I linked to is wrong or misinterpreted or lies? JVL

BTW we don’t enforce the gun laws on the books, Hunter Biden committed a felony and what happened to him? Vivid vividbleau

Kairosfocus: Apparently it has not registered that you have been in early stage 4th gen civil war since about 2016 – 17 and that this intersects with a slow burn WW4 of similar character. That's because that's not happening in Europe with its sexually tolerant laws and societies. The only groups who consistently misbehaved are Islamic extremists. Maybe in the US some people (like Donald Trump) think it's responsible and clever to whip up anger and resentment and fear which is driving a greater and greater polarisation. And more violence. But, ONCE AGAIN, the article I linked to discussed reputable research which has shown that restricting gun access has consistently reduced the number of gun crimes committed. And you have yet to find fault or mistakes in their methodology or conclusions except to say you don't like their conclusions. Your denials of the research amount to scare mongering and conspiracy theories. And, therefore, you refuse to accept a tried and true way to reduce the number of gun homicides because you disagree with abortion laws. You are choosing to accept even more deaths of young and innocent children. Shame on you. You should be supporting everything possible to prevent more deaths. JVL

KF Since JVL is all about the facts https://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2022/05/25/andrew-follett-says-the-media-is-telling-you-two-major-lies-about-mass-shootings-and-gun-control/ “Out of 97 countries with data, the US is 64th in frequency of mass shootings and 65th in murder rate. And rates of mass shootings elsewhere are rising faster” The highest gun-ownership state with the loosest gun laws in the nation is Wyoming, where 59.7% of households have a gun (really!) Wyoming gun laws are arguably the LEAST restrictive in the United States. Wyoming does NOT HAVE a gun homicide problem, with a rate of only 1.4 per 100,000–actually lower than right across the border in more gun-controlled Canada– and only about a third of that of the nation as a whole. The highest murder rate of any jurisdiction in the US is Washington, DC, which has a murder rate of 21.8 per 100,000... more than twenty times that of most European countries! But DC also has the most restrictive gun laws in the country... and the lowest rates of legal gun ownership, with numbers less than in many European states! If stricter gun laws reduced gun violence rates, you'd expect jurisdictions with those laws to have lower rates of gun violence. Instead, we find quite the opposite. who runs Washington, D.C., New York City, Baltimore, Chicago, Detroit, Oakland, etc.? Of course, liberals have found a workaround; they claim that all of the illegal guns in, say, Chicago, are brought in from neighboring states with less strict gun control laws. Even if that’s true, the gun control laws on the books aren’t doing much to stop it.” Vivid vividbleau

F/N: Another policy failure driven by hubris: https://townhall.com/columnists/townhallcomstaff/2022/05/28/the-day-the-electricity-died-n2607923?bcid=9eb19a4c8a920bdf8008aebae3825012069c9b561ac3fc92e5c47c7e310227f9&recip=2101321

we need to understand a little bit about how electric grids work. They cannot store electricity without a battery. Batteries are scarce and expensive. Electric demand must be met with electricity generation, always. If supply cannot keep up with demand, the utility will shut down electricity for some or many. For nearly a week, Texas utilities were unable to meet demand. They shut down the electric grid. Five million people lost power, and from 250 to 700 died. If an electric grid breaks, all the people it serves will be without electricity for weeks or months. Nonetheless, Progressives favor energy policies that will make grid failures more frequent, widespread, and prolonged. They want to close coal plants without enough full-time power ready to take their place. They seem unconcerned about reliability. They want coal plants torn down even if we have to keep paying them—like selling your car to get a newer one while you still owe lots on the first. The people of the upper Midwest will pay the price this summer. Their multi-state grid operator, MISO, has warned that it will be 5 GWs short of electricity this summer. California also could be up to5 GWs short, enough to power 1.3 million homes. Texas warned that there might not be enough electricity for last week’s unexpected 90° weather, or for hotter days coming this summer. What do they all have in common? Increasing their reliance on solar and wind and closing coal plants. A dirty green secret is that coal is full-time power and wind and solar are not. Electric grids must have full-time, on-demand power all the time—plus some—or blackouts are guaranteed. Another dirty secret: wind and solar produce little or no energy 70% of the time. This means that to replace 1,000 MW of coal, it will take 3,500 MW of wind turbines’ “nameplate capacity,” or 5,000 MW of solar’s. That’s about 1,200 3 MW wind turbines or 13 million solar panels, in either case occupying nearly 40 square miles. About 240 coal plants in the United States deliver about 22% of our electricity. About71,000 wind towers produce about 9% of our electricity on a part-time, when-the-wind-blows, basis.

Do we see the pattern? kairosfocus

Sev, start by reading the Heller ruling; already linked above. Then, ponder the cultural moment and the long train of abuses and usurpations already on the table. KF kairosfocus

PS, April 19, 1775: https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/the-american-revolution-begins

1775 April 19 American Revolution begins at Battle of Lexington April 19, 1775: At about 5 a.m., 700 British troops, on a mission to capture Patriot leaders and seize a Patriot arsenal, march into Lexington to find 77 armed minutemen under Captain John Parker waiting for them on the town’s common green. British Major John Pitcairn ordered the outnumbered Patriots to disperse, and after a moment’s hesitation the Americans began to drift off the green. Suddenly, a shot was fired from an undetermined gun, and a cloud of musket smoke soon covered the green. When the brief Battle of Lexington ended, eight Americans lay dead or dying and 10 others were wounded. Only one British soldier was injured, but the American Revolution had begun.

Ask yourself, why. Notice, onward:

By 1775, tensions between the American colonies and the British government approached the breaking point, especially in Massachusetts, where Patriot leaders formed a shadow revolutionary government and trained militias to prepare for armed conflict with the British troops occupying Boston. In the spring of 1775, General Thomas Gage, the British governor of Massachusetts, received instructions from England to seize all stores of weapons and gunpowder accessible to the American insurgents. On April 18, he ordered British troops to march against the Patriot arsenal at Concord and capture Patriot leaders Samuel Adams and John Hancock, known to be hiding at Lexington. The Boston Patriots had been preparing for such a military action by the British for some time, and upon learning of the British plan, Patriots Paul Revere and William Dawes were ordered to set out to rouse the militiamen and warn Adams and Hancock. When the British troops arrived at Lexington, a group of militiamen were waiting. The Patriots were routed within minutes, but warfare had begun, leading to calls to arms across the Massachusetts countryside. When the British troops reached Concord at about 7 a.m., they found themselves encircled by hundreds of armed Patriots. They managed to destroy the military supplies the Americans had collected but were soon advanced against by a gang of minutemen, who inflicted numerous casualties. Lieutenant Colonel Francis Smith, the overall commander of the British force, ordered his men to return to Boston without directly engaging the Americans. As the British retraced their 16-mile journey, their lines were constantly beset by Patriot marksmen firing at them from behind trees, rocks, and stone walls. At Lexington, Captain Parker’s militia had its revenge, killing several British soldiers as the Red Coats hastily marched through his town. By the time the British finally reached the safety of Boston, nearly 300 British soldiers had been killed, wounded, or were missing in action. The Patriots suffered fewer than 100 casualties. The battles of Lexington and Concord were the first battles of the American Revolution, a conflict that would escalate from a colonial uprising into a world war that, seven years later, would give birth to the independent United States of America. [-> notice the odd dating]

Now, ponder the DoI, 1776:

When . . . it becomes necessary for one people . . . to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God [--> natural law context is explicit] entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind [--> they were consciously universal in their appeal] requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. We hold these truths to be self-evident, [cf Rom 1:18 - 21, 2:14 - 15; note, law as "the highest reason," per Cicero on received consensus], that all men are created equal [--> note, equality of humanity], that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights [--> thus there are correlative duties and freedoms framed by the balance], that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security . . . . We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions [Cf. Judges 11:27], do, in the Name, and by the Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.

kairosfocus

JVL, false. In fact, turnabout. A major confiscation push by the government with the blood of 63 million already on its hands and has already played reichstag fire atit prop and lawfare games would hit a dynamic you apparently refuse to acknowledge. I point it out on history, the history as to why there is a USA. But, given that the US is the state whose navy preserves geostrategic balance and protects trade, the global result would be even more catastrophic. The sharp contrast between Wisconsin last November and the push just now not only highlights the true root issues behind a rising tide of violent nihilism but it exposes the hollowness of the claimed concerns and the likely onward intent of the cultural marxism influenced elites. the long march through major cultural institutions is facing a hard limit now. Lawfare, red guards rioting in the streets for the summer of 2020 with power backing, selective faux outrage rooted in cynical marxist create a crisis tactics, repeated flimsy impeachments, dirty elections and more with the 49 years of democide under false colour of law are a clear long train of abuses and usurpations. Apparently it has not registered that you have been in early stage 4th gen civil war since about 2016 - 17 and that this intersects with a slow burn WW4 of similar character. WW3 was the so called Cold war. You are dancing on the edge of a crumbling cliff. KF kairosfocus

Here’s the logic. The last bastion between the taking over the world by the dark side is the United States. The last bastion between taking over the United States are those with guns. That’s very simplified but a large percentage of the US believe that. The main thing that Kf has wrong is who is the dark side. They are definitely not the Marxists and their sympathizers. The ironic thing is they are the useful idiots. The dark side is modern day fascism in the form of a corporatism under control of the WEF. Here’s an eye opener. Look who is associated with the WEF. https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2022/05/forget_the_marxists_heres_the_real_enemy_of_america.html Follow the money! The other ironic thing is that those who oppose the US and it’s gun policy will be silenced if the takeover ever happens. They along with the Marxists will no longer be needed. jerry

Mass shootings are neither a gun problem nor a people problem. Guns alone do nothing unless a human being pulls the trigger. An unarmed individual can kill others using other means but not as easily as with a modern semi-automatic firearm. Mass shootings are a human and gun problem. When the Founding Fathers drafted the Second Amendment they referred to "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,...". The intent of this right was clearly to guarantee the availability of a disciplined body of men trained and practiced in the use of the firearms of the day that could be called upon in times of national emergency. It was equivalent to the requirement in earlier centuries in England that yeoman practice the longbow so that the king could call upon a body of skilled archers for his army in time of war. There is nothing in the text of the Second Amendment to suggest it was intended as a blanket right for anyone to carry whatever weapon they chose whenever they wanted. It should not be necessary to point out that, at the time the Second Amendment was drafted, the most advanced firearms technology was the single-shot, muzzle-loading, flintlock rifle or musket. With these weapons a skilled rifleman or musketeer might manage three aimed shots per minute. No one was going to commit mass shootings with such weapons. In fact, it's highly unlikely that the founders ever envisioned that, in the future, one individual could have a weapon which gave him the equivalent firepower of an entire company of Revolutionary War infantry, let alone that depraved individuals would go into schools and shoot large numbers of children for whatever reason. If they had foreseen such a possibility, do you not think they would have changed the wording of that Amendment? People should have the right to own and shoot firearms for sport or recreation or personal defense but we should remember that the proper limit to any right in society is where the exercise of that right could harm the life, health and legitimate interests of others. Where there is a conflict of interests, society has a right and a duty to step in and do whatever it can to protect the rights of all not just one group. In the case of gun ownership, if that means introducing measures such as universal background checks, requiring at least some basic training in order to qualify for a license, ensuring that legally-owned guns and ammunition be held in some form of secure storage, requiring insurance coverage and the complete destruction of all arms and ammunition confiscated after use in a crime or found to be held illegally and so on, then so be it Seversky

Timothy Mcvay wasn't right in the head. You are clearly in need of help, JH. ET

Kairosfocus: Since you have clearly avoided actually addressing the solutions proposed in the papers discussed in the article I linked to I'm just going to quit expecting you to do so. But your avoidance of the issues has been noted. Really you should learn to actually discuss things with people instead of just continuing to post long, rambling posts about situations and circumstances which are removed from the current and immediate situation. Just because you see a theme doesn't mean it actually exists. If you learned to see things from other people's point of view you might even get your view more appreciated. JVL

JH, you already know you are playing strawman rhetoric games. You have a government that has spent 49 years carrying out democide under colour of law and rights, resulting in a holocaust of 63 million. That govt continues with big lie and reichstag fire agit prop games and now seeks to do what the British tried April 19 1775. If you cannot see where that leads, go reread the US DoI; this time with DC in the place of Geo III. Then, ponder geostrategic consequences that extrapolate what has already begun with Afghanistan, Ukraine, Iran and Taiwan. The last, ponder why Germany twice tried to break out beyond the barrier Islands sitting across the exit of the North Sea, and compare what Japan, S Korea, Taiwan, Australia and Singapore will do once they realise the USN is unlikely to be there when the balloon goes up for them, if there is chaos in the USA. KF kairosfocus

ET: Again, it is not a gun problem. It’s a people problem.

Then I assume that you are opposed to the restrictions placed on the purchase and secure storage of ammonium nitrate after the Oklahoma bombing. After all, the 168 deaths were clearly the result of a ‘people problem’ not an ammonium nitrate problem. We require seat belts and airbags to mitigate a ‘people problem’. In fact, many of our health and safety regulations are there to mitigate ‘people problems’. Why are people so opposed to putting reasonable mitigating controls with regard to firearms? JHolo

For the rest, read 412 on above. kairosfocus

KF: JH, start with the USN, now standing in for the RN after the UK’s geostrategic retirement from 1945 on.

I’m sorry. I’m not following your logic here. What is the link between the US having the largest navy and Billy-Bob being able to buy an assault rifle with no waiting period, no background check, etc?

you do not understand the consequences of a serious gun confiscation push by a government with hands dripping already from 63 million victims, I cannot help you but can hold you up as an example to others.

Again with the abortion issue. Apparently you are opposed to aborting a six week old fetus but willing to accept that the US (lack of) gun laws has led to the death of thousands of people, including not an insignificant number of children. In fact, a bullet was the leading cause of the death of children, surpassing car accidents. Wow. Talk about raising a strawman. Who is suggesting the confiscation of guns? Certainly not me, except for those illegally obtained or those held by people with criminal records, or those found to use or store them improperly.

for claiming analysis of root causes; the contrast between Wisconsin last Nov and this week are enough to show that just the opposite is the case. The reality is, this week we saw failure to handle lockdown soundly and policing failure. KF

You obviously do not understand what root cause analysis is. Might I suggest that you review any of numerous root cause analysis descriptions found on line. JHolo

Jerry, they obviously don't understand that others can be as they are because someone is bearing the burden of survival of a free world. The British people of old understood the why of the royal navy and the consequences of its collapse. They are deaf to what will happen if fatal disaffection sets in in the US. They don't understand that the slaughter of 63 million under colour of law and the ruthless nihilism behind it have brought the USA to a brink; they think dirty business as usual can continue, they can game the system to continue the trend of what they imagine is progress or even -- God help us -- Science. I suspect, if the balloon goes up, they will still be spinning pin the blame elsewhere games in the ashes decades from now. Nigh fifty years later that is true of my native land. KF PS, the contrast of how the elites handled car mowing in obvious retaliatory hate crime to what they want to milk out of a failure of security and policing they think they can spin under their narrative speaks. Do I need to say, Reichstag fire is a game you get to play once? kairosfocus

Again, it is not a gun problem. It's a people problem. And the USA doesn't want to be like other countries. We are not sheep. We will not become a police State. Last Tuesday there were failures in the process. They will be corrected. ET

a blind eye to why these are required in the US and not in most other developed nations

Because the US is unique in the developed world. No other developed nation comes close to having the ethnic makeup and financial attractions as the US. Literally half the world would like to live in the US - the only drawback is bringing their families. Answer the question why does gun ownership and crime very highly negatively correlate? jerry

JH, start with the USN, now standing in for the RN after the UK's geostrategic retirement from 1945 on. If you do not understand the consequences of a serious gun confiscation push by a government with hands dripping already from 63 million victims, I cannot help you but can hold you up as an example to others. As for claiming analysis of root causes; the contrast between Wisconsin last Nov and this week are enough to show that just the opposite is the case. The reality is, this week we saw failure to handle lockdown soundly and policing failure. KF kairosfocus

KF: JH, stop making up a strawman target to knock over.

KF, root cause analysis is not a strawman. Using phrases like ‘the matches we play with’, ‘the branch we sit on’, ‘ nihilism’, ‘4th gen civil war’, now those are strawmen.

Then ask yourself why I note that a lot of other countries can do and say what they do because the US is taking up the slack and bearing the costs. Including those of having an armed citizenry.

How, exactly does Canada or New Zealand or Australia benefit from the US having an armed citizenry. Due to proximity and an unguarded border, gun proliferation in the US only makes it more difficult to keep illegal firearms out of Canada. Gun control has nothing to do with your fictitious nihilistic government, or your fictitious 4th generation civil war, or abortion. It has to do with reasonable restrictions on firearm ownership, background checks, proper storage, etc. Your hyperbolic dooms-day preaching does nothing to keep children safe. Again, give me one good reason why the US cannot do what most other countries have done. Pointing to the 2nd amendment is not a valid reason. Firstly, there is not common agreement on what it entails. Secondly, it was written when flint-lock muskets were the state-of-the-art in deadly force. And thirdly, the constitution and its amendments are not carved in stone. They can be changed. If this weren’t the case, we would still have slavery. Women, blacks, Indigenous peoples and people of Asian descent would not be allowed to vote. Being difficult is not a reason not to do the right thing. JHolo

Kairosfocus: that’s why you need to be a lot more restrained; with all due respect. One week later his dad, best man for mine, died of a literal broken heart. He made five bereavements in a run. Again, I am sorry to hear that. But, likewise, you have no way of knowing what things might have happened to me that I chose not to mention. JVL

JH, stop making up a strawman target to knock over. Read, really read, what I put on the table about the matches we are playing with. A perfect world would have no guns, tanks, artillery, army or navy or air force. Go read the history of the 1920s and 30s to see what happened when a lot of people tried to go there. Then ask yourself why I note that a lot of other countries can do and say what they do because the US is taking up the slack and bearing the costs. Including those of having an armed citizenry. Ponder what happens if fatal disaffection sets in because of a push for confiscation by a nihilist government that under colour of law has pushed policy that led to the slaughter of 63 million, 25,000 per week. Do you understand why there is already serious disaffection? Contrast this case to the vehicular mowing down in Wisconsin and draw out implications for what is going on; I have put on the table quite enough to spark thought, though the thought will be bitter to chew on. You can take the blue pill but here is the red. Try: the US is already in a shadow, 4th gen civil war led by a nihilistic ideological elite seeking to impose lawless oligarchy through a cultural form of marxism as they imagine the USA and what it represents is what is fundamentally wrong with the world, just as I saw a similar war from 1976 - 80 and lived to see Russia rent a conference centre to publicly apologise for its part in 1990. Now ponder global, geostrategic consequences of utter chaos in the US way beyond 1975 - 80, the years of post VN geostrategic retreat. Then, think again. KF kairosfocus

JVL, that's why you need to be a lot more restrained; with all due respect. One week later his dad, best man for mine, died of a literal broken heart. He made five bereavements in a run. KF kairosfocus

Kairosfocus: three weeks ago my cousin was murdered by a criminal who [details suppressed] in Cayman, for the crime of having been a Supt of Prisons. Stop it I am sorry to hear that but there is no way my comments should be judged in light of that since I had no way of knowing that had happened. kindly stop setting up a strawman in order to abusively comment against me I'm sorry but you do exactly that all the time. You misrepresent what evolutionary theory is saying and you assume that people who disagree with you must have certain views which you find repugnant. Have you checked your eyes for motes recently? which frankly is easier than addressing several fairly dangerous policy issues. The article I linked to discussed several bits of research which directly discussed proven ways to reduce gun violence in the US. The methods discussed were not destabilising and were tested in various states over varying lengths of time. How is that not dealing with the issue at hand? We all want to reduce gun violence do we not? Why not try methods that have worked and been shown to work more that once in different locations? Unless there is something more important to you than saving lives. JVL

KF: But more to the point not the usual distractors, we see that we had lockdown failure just when someone was watching, followed by policing failure.

KF, you keep talking about soft target hardening and police procedures, but you completely turn a blind eye to why these are required in the US and not in most other developed nations. Using accident investigation parlance, the open door and the lack of police action would be classified as the immediate causes. Important to identify but relatively inconsequential. Of critical importance is the identification of the root cause and addressing it to prevent or seriously reduce recurrence. All studies and any third grader can tell you that the root cause of this incident, and thousands of others, is the easy availability of firearms. JHolo

JVL, kindly stop setting up a strawman in order to abusively comment against me. I do not need to repeat myself on what I actually said, just I point out that you wish to attack a caricature, which frankly is easier than addressing several fairly dangerous policy issues. I just say, guns do not solve all problems but in a world where there are violent nihilists adequate defence is necessary and if you are unwilling to speak to specifics then do not smear others for the crime in your mind of having thought about say terminal ballistics; maybe you should know just how offensive you are, three weeks ago my cousin was murdered by a criminal who [details suppressed] in Cayman, for the crime of having been a Supt of Prisons. Stop it. KF kairosfocus

JH, yes, BB gun which rarely kills. Now, there actually is a 1990 law for the US which sets a perimeter around schools, modified to take in the usual interstate commerce etc after suit. But more to the point not the usual distractors, we see that we had lockdown failure just when someone was watching, followed by policing failure. The need for target hardening as in the OP and my comment at 30 endorsed by poster of the OP in 32, is underscored. Many side tracks, distractors and even some outright slanders have occurred above, but they don't change the force of this need. In addition, underlying drivers are on the table that need to be faced. KF kairosfocus

Kairosfocus: Let me make sure I'm clear about your position: you have chosen to disregard several recent studies by reputable researchers who examined actual situations where access to privately owned firearms was restricted in someway and those measures were NOT destabilising but demonstrably did lead to lower rates of gun homicide . . . and you're choosing to disregard those clearly repeatable results for what non-ideological reasons exactly? Or is it all just down to views which are impervious to new data and evidence? More to the point: if there are approaches which have clearly demonstrated that they actually, verifiably reduce gun crime (and when they are rescinded gun crime goes up) then why won't you support those proven methods for saving lives? Which do you prefer: having fewer guns on the streets and therefore fewer firearm homicides OR putting even more guns out there: arming teachers and having more armed policemen about? Don't bother to reply; I know what your answer will be. You've been very, very clear especially with all your talk about various weapons and surveillance and assault techniques. Guns are ways to solve problems for you. And if the other guys have a lot of guns then you need even more guns. An eye for an eye, a life for a life eh? I'm surprised you haven't moved to Miami, got yourself some serious firepower and spent time patrolling the streets looking to stop pimps and drug pushers and gangs and dirty cops and the occasional mentally deranged person who was able to purchase a semi- or even fully- automatic weapon with minimal checks or restrictions. Heck, you're one of the good guys, if the cops aren't going to do their jobs then why shouldn't you do their jobs for them? It would be cheaper than paying for more cops. And when you can't find any bad guys to plug you can always hang around the closest abortion clinic and scare away women who got pregnant by being raped. I wonder who is the actual nihilistic one here? JVL

KF has referenced the quick action by police in Toronto, killing a weapon carrying individual walking around in an area that had a couple schools. He referred to it as a possible copy-cat. What he fails to mention is that in Texas, because of open-carry laws, the police would be powerless to do anything until he stepped on school property. So, there is one thing that can be done to reduce the risk. Seriously restrict who can carry firearms in public. This does not impinge on their right to own firearms. The other thing he fails to mention is that the individual in Toronto, even if he entered a school with the intent to cause harm, could only have caused minor injury to a couple kids, unless he used his weapon as a club. And why is that? Because he was carrying a BB gun. Nobody knows what this person’s intent or motivations were. Suicide by cop is more likely than a copy-cat. However, this does not mean that this incidence wasn’t influenced by the Texas slaughter. It was likely the cause of the overreaction and lethal force used by the Toronto police. But even if he was a true copy-cat, his ability to cause serious harm was seriously limited by the relative difficulty in attaining guns in Canada. JHolo

F/N: heartbreaking: https://www.facebook.com/945376305602259/posts/pfbid02hRNBTD9ZVZ331RUdnztYd1L5wfCooYZfY44weJUJSVb3xPKJFXNiajAtqL9EGAc9l/?d=n

Robb Elementary May 24 at 9:43 AM · 11:43 am Robb Elementary is under a Lockdown Status Robb Elementary Parents: Please know at this time Robb Elementary is under a Lockdown Status due to gunshots in the area. The students and staff are safe in the building. The building is secure in a Lockdown Status. Your cooperation is needed at this time by not visiting the campus. As soon as the Lockdown Status is lifted you will be notified. Thank you for your cooperation! Anne Marie Espinoza Executive Director of Communications and Marketing Uvalde CISD

KF kairosfocus

"Abolish de police!" kairosfocus

The most important question has nothing to do with guns directly but very indirectly.           Who would want to be a cop anymore? If no cops, then what do we do to protect ourselves? Any guesses? Aside: what do the people of Uvalde think of their police force? Aside2: another mass shooting was prevented two days ago when a woman with a concealed carry permit shot and killed someone firing at a graduation party. Not making the headlines. jerry

F/N: When defensive measures are captured by the shooter: https://www.breitbart.com/border/2022/05/27/school-security-features-protected-shooter-slowed-texas-police-response/

School Security Features Protected Shooter, Slowed Texas Police Response Some of the features designed to keep students safe in an active shooter situation actually worked to protect the shooter and slow the Uvalde police response to the Texas school shooting on Tuesday. The shooter managed to barricade himself behind two locked doors, forcing police to wait to find keys. An 18-year-old shooter shot his way into classroom 111 or 112 at about 11:33 on Tuesday morning, Texas Department of Public Safety Director, Col. Steve McCraw said in a press conference on Friday morning. The classroom doors were unlocked as he entered the classrooms. At that point, the shooter barricaded himself behind the locked doors that were designed to keep an active shooter out of the classrooms. School awards ceremonies earlier in the morning could have contributed to the classroom doors being open. Uvalde Consolidated Independent School District safety protocols call for all classroom doors to be “closed and locked at all times.” The classroom doors were open when the shooter made entry into the school. Texas Department of Public Safety officials told Breitbart Texas on Friday that these classroom doors are designed to not be able to be kicked in by someone outside the classroom. The doors open toward the hallway and are encased in a metal frame. The windows on the door are a tall, slim rectangular shape designed to limit visibility into the classroom by an active shooter. The two classrooms have a suite-style bathroom between the two classrooms allowing the shooter to move back and forth at will between the rooms. Window blinds also prevented law enforcement from seeing into the classroom. “Officers could not see into the classrooms to determine where the shooter was and what tactical advantages he might have,” DPS Lt. Christopher Olivarez told Breitbart. “The shooter had the tactical advantage the entire time. Once the shooter locked himself inside the two adjoining classrooms, McCraw said the on-scene commander made the decision that the circumstances had changed from an active shooter situation to a barricaded suspect/hostage situation. McCraw added, “With the benefit of hindsight where I’m sitting now of course, it was not the right decision. It was the wrong decision.”

Security breakdowns, laxity in response to the shooting outside (when people at the funeral home tried to approach the crashed vehicle to help) allowed entry to the school and capture of a defensive position. Security failure and police failure. KF kairosfocus

F/N, to further see the media manipulation game, https://www.investmentwatchblog.com/watch-joe-rogan-eviscerates-media-for-reporting-waukesha-massacre-as-an-accident/

Watch: Joe Rogan Eviscerates Media For Reporting Waukesha Massacre As An “Accident” December 3, 2021 8:35 am by IWB Sharing is Caring! Authored by Steve Watson via Summit News, Joe Rogan once again tore the legacy media apart on his podcast, this time over its coverage of the Waukesha attack after several outlets referred to the murderous rampage as an accident. “The guy in Wisconsin had tried to run over his [] girlfriend and he was out on only $1000 bail. [--> attempted murder?] He tried to kill someone with his car, he was out on $1000 bail, and then he runs over 50 people in a car,” Rogan explained. “Here’s the [] up part: the way they’re covering that story in the news. It’s not the ‘man who killed those people,’ it was an accident that was caused by an SUV,” Rogan said, referring to NBC, CNN, CBS and others calling the attack a ‘crash’ and an ‘accident’. Rogan continued, “A [] SUV caused an accident? what are you saying? Did the car go haywire? Did the auto-driving feature go nuts? No this evil man with real problems… a psychologically [] up human being drove into a crowd of strangers.”

Rogan comments https://rumble.com/vq2ibb-joe-rogan-calls-out-the-media-for-the-way-they-covered-the-waukesha-massacr.html Note, he has potty mouth problems, pardon. Something is quite wrong here. Back to NYP, did the sitting President rush out and seize the moment to address the hate pandemic? Here is what happened almost a month after the incident:

Brooks’ case has become a cause célèbre — not in the mainstream media, which was slammed for initially saying the deadly attack was caused by “a car” that drove into the parade, but by an increasing chorus of influential podcasters like Joe Rogan and online pundits who claim Brooks and his victims in Waukesha have been “swept under the carpet” by the press because the case doesn’t fit their agenda. The growing outcry may be why it was announced Saturday that first lady Jill Biden and second gentleman Doug Emhoff will visit Waukesha on Wednesday. Though bordering ultra-Democratic Milwaukee County, Waukesha County is a Republican stronghold. After being released on just $1,000 cash bail for allegedly running over the mother of his child earlier this month, Brooks is now being held in Waukesha County Jail, charged with six counts of intentional homicide.

And by the way, guess what acquittal that was widely denounced in the media happened a few days before the vehicular attack? KF kairosfocus

F/N: More on the Christmas parade attack, from NYP:

Screenshots of Brooks’ Facebook page, under his MathBoi Fly rapper handle, were mysteriously deleted right after the parade murders, and showed that he had praised Hitler, backed Black Lives Matter — and called for violence against white people. “So when we start bakk knokkin white people TF out ion wanna hear it…the old white ppl 2, KNOKK DEM TF OUT!! PERIOD,” he wrote under his rap name, MathBoi Fly, along with a middle-finger emoji. Brooks’ case has become a cause célèbre — not in the mainstream media, which was slammed for initially saying the deadly attack was caused by “a car” that drove into the parade, but by an increasing chorus of influential podcasters like Joe Rogan and online pundits who claim Brooks and his victims in Waukesha have been “swept under the carpet” by the press because the case doesn’t fit their agenda.

Where is the national "conversation" on those issues? There is more:

Brooks bounced among his mother’s house in a rough area on Milwaukee’s north side and those of various girlfriends, one 20 miles away in Waukesha. When staying with his mom, he frequented neighborhood hangouts on Capitol Drive like Teutonia Liquors, JJ Fish & Chicken and the run-down Big Man’s Place bar — where the owners peer out from locked doors and cheap surveillance cameras before letting customers inside.

The pattern is all too familiar, and the indicated reformation points in a rather familiar direction. Which, is obviously where the manipulators do not wish to go. It is high time for rethinking. Where is the push for ever tighter restrictions on vehicular licensing and ownership, given the associated carnage by accident and intent, including vehicular suicides? Time for rethinking. kairosfocus

JVL, I am looking at the wider evidence as to what is realistic given the cultural moment and a government that nihilistically enabled the democide of 63 million of living posterity in the womb through abuse of the colour of law and media manipulation. They know that a major gun confiscation push will be civilisationally and likely geostrategically catastrophic; costing far more lives than they hope to save. Next, I have not seen the same medical establishment championing suicide prevention when there was a push in recent years to enable euthanasia. Then, the sort of actual violent crime drivers I noted on, including dyslexia issues, marijuana issues and alcohol issues, likewise were not championed by the medical establishment. I do not find a serious reckoning of the balance of costs, risks and losses thus sustainability. So, in an ideal law abiding world we could eliminate: firearms, tanks, artillery, missiles, amies, air forces and navies, saving ever so many lives and dramatically increasing economic growth and support for the needy. So, why aren't we pushing for that? Because they know too many people understand the reality that this is not that utopian world. As it is, the US precisely because it was founded on peasant uprising as the average man was armed and militarily effective is the guardian that allows other nations to move far closer to utopian policies [see the NATO military budget issue]. The US also has a nihilistic state with growing disaffection. Were firearms licensing like vehicular licensing, we would see a very different thing, but it is not, manifestly not. So, what I see instead is a suspiciously familiar imbalance with strategic gaps in what is being argued. I don't buy the hidden agenda. KF kairosfocus

PS, Observe the stilted reporting on the Wisconsin, vehicular mass homicide: https://edition.cnn.com/2021/11/22/us/wisconsin-christmas-parade-suv-into-crowd-what-we-know/index.html

The celebratory sounds of a Wisconsin Christmas parade were interrupted by terrified screams Sunday after a vehicle plowed into participants and spectators gathered for the event in Waukesha, a city about 20 miles west of downtown Milwaukee. Five people were killed and more than 40 were injured in the chaos, city officials said, as authorities confirmed the identity of the suspect. Here's what we know about how events unfolded: Crowds were bundled up along Main Street to enjoy the parade when a red SUV drove through a series of barricades and barreled onto the parade route around 4:39 p.m. CT, police Chief Daniel Thompson said. Police identify the driver they say plowed into a Waukesha Christmas parade, leaving 5 people dead and 48 injured Police identify the driver they say plowed into a Waukesha Christmas parade, leaving 5 people dead and 48 injured A video of the parade recorded by Angela O'Boyle, who was watching from her fifth-story apartment balcony, shows the SUV hitting an individual in a marching band. The vehicle then continues forward, hitting and running over others in the band and crowd before driving away. People can be heard screaming and seen running for safety as the SUV continues its path. Video of the parade published on the city's Facebook page shows a red SUV driving quickly through the parade, followed by a running police officer. A Waukesha police officer fired their weapon in an attempt to stop the driver, Thompson said. No bystanders were struck by the officer's gunfire, the chief added, noting he doesn't believe any shots were fired from the SUV.

Was this an autonomous vehicle going out of control? No, as:

The driver has been identified as Darrell E. Brooks, 39, of Milwaukee, Thompson said Monday afternoon at a news conference. Police have recommended five charges of intentional homicide. Prosecutors in the Waukesha County District Attorney's Office said they will review the matter with police and expect to file initial charges Tuesday. Brooks will make his initial court appearance Tuesday afternoon. Additional charges could be filed when more is known about the people who were injured, prosecutors said. The chief said no motive is known. Brooks was involved in a domestic disturbance earlier Sunday and left the scene just before driving his SUV through the parade, Thompson said. Here's what we know about the suspect in the Waukesha parade tragedy Here's what we know about the suspect in the Waukesha parade tragedy "We are confident he acted alone," Thompson said. "There is no evidence this is a terrorist incident."

Clue one, this was a Christmas Parade. Let's compare NYP to see what is missing https://nypost.com/2021/12/13/why-waukesha-parade-attack-doesnt-fit-media-narrative/

‘Not fitting their narrative’: Waukesha feels abandoned after tragic parade attack By Dana Kennedy December 13, 2021 For her whole life, 67-year-old Sharon Millard was so shy, she used to ask her identical twin sister to go on dates in her place in high school. But ever since Nov. 21, when Darrell Brooks allegedly plowed into dozens of people at the Waukesha Christmas parade, killing six people, including an 8-year-old boy, and injuring up to 60 others, Millard has felt compelled to speak about the atrocity she witnessed. One of the people killed was Millard’s fellow “Dancing Granny,” 79-year-old Virginia “Ginny” Sorenson, who was tossed up in the air like a rag doll by Brooks’ SUV, police say. “No one ever saw him coming,” Millard told The Post. “He was going so fast. All I knew is I saw Ginny fly up in the air and land in front of me. I saw her curled up and blood was coming out of her like a river. I was standing in blood.” Brooks is a violent 39-year-old career criminal, registered sex offender and amateur rapper from north Milwaukee with a rap sheet going back to 1999, who allegedly punched the mother of his child in the face early last month and then drove over her, leaving tire marks on her leg. Despite the severity of that crime, he was released five days before the Waukesha rampage on a cash bail of just $1,000 set by liberal Milwaukee County prosecutors.

It does not fit the narrative, and the perpetrator is black with a significant violent crime history. Where, regrettably, African American males are disproportionately represented in violent crime in North America. An assessment of the demographics would implicate family breakdown, drink, drugs [including marijuana which has had ever higher THC concentrations in recent years now up to 45% in some cases] and criminalisation of youth culture. Also, a significant factor we have observed in the Caribbean is educational, a disproportionate fraction of the imprisoned are dyslexic; which frustrates learning under conventional instructional techniques. That and related profiles for hispanic and caucasian criminality would also correlate with the observation that high incidence of firearms ownership does not correlate well with high violent crime rates. All of this has to be known in policy making and media narrative driving circles. So, why aren't these factors at the centre of discussion about civilisational breakdown? Obviously, such would lead where the spinmeisters and gaslighters do not wish to go: reformation on principles highly correlated to gospel ethics and teachings of the Bible, a good part of the reason why in former generations leading revivalists and Christian reformers were celebrated figures. In short, we are looking at anticivilisational nihilistic misanthropy and radicalism that patently points toward lawless ideological oligarchy, on the grounds Plato identified long ago in his parable of the ship of state. The failure of Athenian Democracy cast Democracy in the shadows for 2000 years. Constitutional democratic self government is inherently unstable and dependent on cultural buttresses as outlined. We had better reconsider the fire we are playing with. KF kairosfocus

Kairosfocus: they have to know that a big gun confiscation push will only trigger fatal disaffection and that they will ultimately lose such a 4th gen war subjugation push, with horrific geostrategic consequences. So, you're just going to ignore the evidence given by several studies discussed in the article which show that limiting access to guns brings down the number of cases of gun violence? So, it's not about any kind of science or evidence or data? JVL

JVL, that has been the nature of rifle wounds ever since the rise of smokeless powder and fast moving spitzer bullets. Many pistol rounds also do much the same. The impact of a gunshot wound can be awful, lethal or maiming. That is why it should only be used under circumstances of defence of life and fundamental rights. But in a world where there is nihilist evil, there is a need for effective defence. Where such is a least of realistically evil alternatives. The case being headlined is one where a delay on the old cordon and negotiate model cost more lives and it took independent action by a few to stop the murderous course by direct assault and gun fire. Last Christmas -- a case that was not blazed abroad by the media -- had a good man with a rifle shot quickly, people would not have been mown down using a vehicle at a Christmas celebration. onward, given the decades of nihilistic behaviour of the US Govt they have to know that a big gun confiscation push will only trigger fatal disaffection and that they will ultimately lose such a 4th gen war subjugation push, with horrific geostrategic consequences. The smart bet is they are playing divide and polarise politics but that is playing with fire that can be uncontrollable. See, fatal disaffection. KF kairosfocus

US gun violence is a health crisis with evidence-based solutions, experts plea. Doctors and researchers say the science is clear, and it's long past time to act. https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/05/us-gun-violence-is-a-health-crisis-with-evidence-based-solutions-experts-plea/

This is "very much our lane," Dr. Bindi Naik-Mathuria, a pediatric surgeon at Baylor College of Medicine in Houston, told NBC. She spoke vividly about the immediate impacts that AR-15-style weapons have on a human body—particularly the smallest ones. In the Uvalde, Texas school shooting this week, the gunman used an AR-15-style rifle (the Daniel Defense DDM4 V7 rifle), which he bought online. AR-15-style rifles are often used in mass shootings. They use a common military-caliber ammunition. The bullets don't always pass cleanly through flesh, but can instead become "unstable" and tumble, causing devastating damage that can leave victims unrecognizable and with an exceptionally low chance of survival. "It's not just the hole you see on the outside. It's a huge blast effect," Naik-Mathuria told NBC. "You see completely shredded organs. Vessels are completely disrupted. There's no way to salvage them." The state of some of the bullet-riddled bodies of the fourth-graders killed in this week's shooting was so grave authorities were forced to use DNA testing to identify their small corpses.

In 2017, firearm injuries became the leading cause of death in children and teens, overtaking motor vehicle crashes' more than 60-year streak of being the leading cause. Between 2019 and 2020, the relative rate of firearm-related deaths of all types (suicide, homicide, unintentional, and undetermined) among children and adolescents rose 29.5 percent, according to an analysis published May 19, 2022, in The New England Journal of Medicine. Those numbers were primarily driven by an increase in the crude rate of firearm homicides in children and teens, which rose by 33 percent.

"This is about protecting people's health. This is about protecting kids' lives," Michael Dowling, president and CEO of New York-based Northwell Health, told Becker's Hospital Review this week. "Gun violence is not an issue on the outside—it's a central public health issue for us. Every single hospital leader in the United States should be standing up and screaming about what an abomination this is."

More guns make people less safe, study after study has found. Access to firearms triples the risk of suicide and doubles the risk of homicide. States with higher rates of household firearm ownership had significantly higher homicide rates of men, women, and children, health experts at Harvard found in 2007. In 2015, another group of Harvard researchers found that states with the highest rates of gun ownership had rates of firearm assaults 6.8 times higher than states with the lowest rates of gun ownership.

In 2019, Columbia University health experts found that states with more permissive gun laws and greater gun ownership had higher rates of mass shootings. Specifically, a 10 percent increase in state gun ownership was linked to a 35 percent higher rate of mass shootings. In 2021, researchers found that more gun dealers in an area were linked to increased homicides in subsequent years. "The common thread in all of the country's revolting mass shootings is the absurdly easy access to guns," Holden Thorp, editor-in-chief of the Science family of journals wrote in an editorial Thursday. "The science is clear: Restrictions work, and it's likely that even more limitations would save thousands of lives."

A 2017 analysis in the journal Science found that gun violence could effectively be reduced by adopting add-on sentences for gun use in violent crime, bans on gun possession by those convicted of domestic violence, and restrictions on carrying concealed firearms in public. A 2020 study by Johns Hopkins University health researchers concluded that gun-purchaser licensing laws coupled with comprehensive background check requirements were "consistently associated with lower firearm homicide and suicide rates." Specifically, when Connecticut adopted a handgun purchaser licensing law in 1995, the state saw an estimated 28 percent overall decrease in its firearm homicide rate and a 33 percent overall decrease in its firearm suicide rate. When Missouri repealed such a licensing law in 2007, it saw an estimated 47 percent overall increase in firearm homicides and a 23.5 percent increase in firearm suicide.

JVL

F/N: It gets worse, the inference that the Border Patrol agents acted independently is confirmed, days after the incident: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/federal-agents-entered-uvalde-school-kill-gunman-local-police-initiall-rcna30941

Federal agents who went to Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas, on Tuesday to confront a gunman who killed 19 children were told by local police to wait and not enter the school — and then decided after about half an hour to ignore that initial guidance and find the shooter, say two senior federal law enforcement officials. According to the officials, agents from BORTAC, the Customs and Border Protection tactical unit, and ICE's Homeland Security Investigations (HSI) arrived on the scene between noon and 12:15 p.m. on Tuesday. Local law enforcement asked them to wait, and then instructed HSI agents to help pull children out of the windows. The BORTAC team, armed with tactical gear, at first did not move toward the gunman. After approximately 30 minutes passed, however, the federal agents opted of their own volition to lead the “stack” of officers inside the school and take down the shooter.

Sad, but we need to identify and draw real lessons towards a sounder future. KF kairosfocus

UCMJ https://ucmj.us/ kairosfocus

JH, frivolous evasion. I explicitly remark upon the cites showing my separate view. You are playing a rhetorical game of successive tangents. I draw your attention to the recent article and the Heller case ruling as showing quite specific context for sound understanding. One may differ but one needs to reckon responsively. I point out that Heller is consistent with the statute cited and with 30 above. I trust it is clear that beyond rights to means of self defence I imply individual and collective duties to act in defence of the civil peace of justice. First by the sort of civil society means in US Const Amdt 1 as a classic historical case but also under force of the natural law outlined in DoI para 2, not only sound electoral process but where things are broken down beyond that or where constitutional democracy is not in place and evidence warrants inference to intent of lawless subjugation, there is a duty of armed defence. KF PS, I can envision cases where it moves beyond volunteer civilian marshals to conscription of the body politic in the face of mortal danger. The Book of Nehemiah is a classic study on this. And yes, another point where the Bible gives good instruction to ordinary people. kairosfocus

PPPS, Heller https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/07pdf/07-290.pdf Note the reasoning. kairosfocus

KF: JH, I repeat, you cited with implied approval.

You cite me quite frequently. Does that imply your approval? I notice that you have not responded to my comment that the person the Toronto cops shot was of very little threat to school kids even if he was not stopped by the cops. And why do you think that would be? JHolo

PPS, without endorsing all that is said or tone, I suggest this balancing piece is relevant https://cfif.org/v/index.php/commentary/42-constitution-and-legal/4683-warren-burger-meme-bungles-2nd-amendment kairosfocus

JH, citation as you made implies approval as you full well know; you are simply underscoring the problem by attempts to evade. Where, well regulated militia means able to stand in battle under orders and deliver controlled fire at an effective, rapid rate; cf. von Steuben, late of Prussia. As was pivotal in the then just past Revolution. It is not a blank check for the federal or local state to effect confiscation under colour of regulation; the ten amendments being restrictions on the central government as no 10 underscores. We can readily update to modern circumstances. Further to which, it is not right of state, federal or local, but of the people' implying individual rights. Where BTW, private ownership and use of cannon was implied in the provision for letters of marque. [In Switzerland, historically, private individuals were invited to purchase outdated artillery pieces as part of the people based national defence.] This is similar to how there is a common failure to recognise the Westphalia settlement context of the 1st Amendment and its implication that what was forbidden is a federal church of the US, local establishment being left to the states with the proviso that Frei Kirke should not be unduly restricted. Indeed, the classic freedoms are set in that context, being steps to petition for redress in case of violation. There is reason to see that a lot of what has gone on under colour of law is ill founded. KF PS, notice how you failed to address the unorganised militia. kairosfocus

KF: JH, I repeat, you cited with implied approval.

Please stop trying to read minds. You are not good at it.

Meanwhile, you are unresponsive to the standing statute on militia…

The 2nd clearly states a “well regulated militia”. I don’t have a problem with this. JHolo

JH, I repeat, you cited with implied approval. Meanwhile, you are unresponsive to the standing statute on militia and you are ignoring a substantial response that is anchored in history as well as law. I suggest that you read 30 above and note how I incorporated UCMJ and the Shire Reff. KF PS, I note, the CJ in question presided over a notorious decision in 1973. That means his interpretation of rights issues is manifestly open to question. Life is the first, touchstone right. kairosfocus

KF: JH, you cited with approval, grounding the response to you.

It was in blockquote, and italics, and witching quotation marks. That clearly indicates that they are not my words.

As for the former CJ, he fails the history and natural law tests. Unsurprising, though sad as legal positivism has become a dominant school of thought.

Why don’t you try addressing his reasoning rather than the man. He was a Republican and clearly had his reason for claiming that the 2nd amendment is being misrepresented. JHolo

JH, you cited with approval, grounding the response to you. As for the former CJ, he fails the history and natural law tests. Unsurprising, though sad as legal positivism has become a dominant school of thought. Roughly speaking, that school holds that law is whatever those who control the legal presses issue under colour and ceremony of law, explicitly denying accountability before principles of Justice. I would suggest, Cicero and others who actually laid the foundation for the lawful state that sees itself as servant to the civil peace of justice, know better than the current establishment on law. KF PS, I cannot but notice that you have not commented on the significance of the relevant law on Militia. kairosfocus

KF: PS, Contrast Toronto was it where a copycat was shot by police before he could attack schools. That has some bearing on the push about confiscation of weapons from the law abiding.

He was hardly a copy-cat. Even if he got into a school there is no way he was going to kill anyone with his weapon. JHolo

KF: We know, for cause, your credibility on matters ideological is low — especially when you make confident manner assertions. Here, loaded accusations of fraud that invite cognitive dissonance analysis along the lines, confession by projection.

They are not my accusations of fraud. Those are the accusations made by a former Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. Take it up with him. I suspect he knew more about the constitution than you do. JHolo

BA, a patent policing failure, the key to which seems to have been a flawed command decision that put in place cordon and negotiate. The lessons of Columbine etc that in a world of nihilistic blood lust one needs to make a very different response than previously, was not adequately mainstreamed. The SWAT tactics were also apparently ill advised, reinforcing delay in which hostages who called 911 from inside the room were killed. I don't know about cowardice but I can see crooked yardstick thinking. I think there was also lockdown fatigue which may have led to poor consistency. In turn the staff of schools in the community seem to have had a great many lockdowns due to high speed chases of people smugglers, It is always hard to keep security disciplines in place.The relevance of 30 above keeps getting underscored. As it is I figure the school district and police face US$ 100 million or so in legal liabilities over their blunders. KF PS, Contrast Toronto was it where a copycat was shot by police before he could attack schools. That has some bearing on the push about confiscation of weapons from the law abiding. kairosfocus

PPPS, It is back to the school of Cicero:

—Marcus [in de Legibus, introductory remarks,. C1 BC, being Cicero himself]: . . . we shall have to explain the true nature of moral justice, which is congenial and correspondent [36]with the true nature of man [--> we are seeing the root vision of natural law, coeval with our humanity] . . . . With respect to the true principle of justice, many learned men have maintained that it springs from Law. I hardly know if their opinion be not correct, at least, according to their own definition; for . “Law (say they) is the highest reason, implanted in nature, which prescribes those things which ought to be done, and forbids the contrary” . . . . They therefore conceive that the voice of conscience is a law, that moral prudence is a law [--> a key remark] , whose operation is to urge us to good actions, and restrain us from evil ones . . . . According to the Greeks, therefore, the name of law implies an equitable distribution of goods: according to the Romans [--> esp. Cicero, speaking as a leading statesman], an equitable discrimination between good and evil. The true definition of law should, however, include both these characteristics. And this being granted as an almost self–evident proposition, the origin of justice is to be sought in the divine law of eternal and immutable morality. This indeed is the true energy of nature, the very soul and essence of wisdom, the test of virtue and vice.

[--> this points to the wellsprings of reality, the only place where is and ought can be bridged; bridged, through the inherently good utterly wise, maximally great necessary being, the creator God, which adequately answers the Euthyphro dilemma and Hume's guillotine argument surprise on seeing reasoning is-is then suddenly a leap to ought-ought. IS and OUGHT are fused from the root]

This indeed is the true energy of nature, the very soul and essence of wisdom, the test of virtue and vice.

kairosfocus

JH, We know, for cause, your credibility on matters ideological is low -- especially when you make confident manner assertions. Here, loaded accusations of fraud that invite cognitive dissonance analysis along the lines, confession by projection. However, just for record, kindly explain to us the following, from 204 above, a citation of law under precisely that Amendment (and which is the basis for both Conscription and the National Guard of the US and its states, BTW, compare Switzerland across its history):

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/246 10 U.S. Code § 246 – Militia: composition and classes U.S. Code Notes prev | next (a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard. (b) The classes of the militia are— (1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and (2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia. (Aug. 10, 1956, ch. 1041, 70A Stat. 14, §?311; Pub. L. 85–861, §?1(7), Sept. 2, 1958, 72 Stat. 1439; Pub. L. 103–160, div. A, title V, §?524(a), Nov. 30, 1993, 107 Stat. 1656; renumbered §?246, Pub. L. 114–328, div. A, title XII, §?1241(a)(2), Dec. 23, 2016, 130 Stat. 2497.)

This is the framework for 30 above. KF PS, That one may keep and bear arms in general, has never historically meant that one may pose a threat of assassination etc. As you full well know. It is also irrelevant to the OP and 30 above, which apply the militia principle to the protection of vulnerable targets in an era of heightened threat. The right of individual, family and community defence by reasonable and effective means is bound up in the fight/flight equipment built into us and into many other creatures. It finds further expression in the US DoI para 2, where -- given our nature as rational, responsible, significantly free and social creatures -- the matter of a right to make representation or remonstrance proceeds to that to reform or replace government gone bad. The US Constitution is actually the second attempt to deliver on this paragraph. A paragraph which, historically, is one of the most successful pieces of natural law reasoning. Which, as it is about built in law of our rational, responsible nature, is inherently universal. That 2nd Para is the charter of modern constitutional democracy and marks the point where after developments through printing revolution, reformation, rise of literacy, increased prosperity and leisure, inculcation in principles of liberty, law and self government largely through the Bible in vernacular translation, thence the rise of a public with discussion of matters of governance, political space was successfully opened up to move beyond the ages long contest between lawless and lawful oligarchy. I go further to state, that other states are able to free ride on the US commitment to these principles. That is how, across C20 and 21, unprecedented numbers of reasonably functional constitutional democracies have emerged. The ongoing 4th gen shadow civil war in the US threatening to cause collapse into lawless ideological oligarchy, has implications far beyond the borders of the US. In that context, the 49 year i8mposition of democide of living posterity in the womb through nihilistic imposition under law is a sobering sign, and a root of potentially fatal disaffection. (I only mention questionable electoral practices that are open to vastly increased fraud opportunities as the US State Department itself noted when they emerged in Ukraine c 2005.) Right now, the US is playing with bigger matches than it seems to realise and given geostrategic considerations, all 7.5 bn of us are stakeholders. Please, think again. PPS, a good test of fundamental soundness on history and law is to ask, does the Doi have legal force. Those who say no directly imply invalidity of the US Constitution, delivered in the 12th year of independence, save as an instrument of raw power. Similarly, they imply denial that we have a built in core law that sets parameters of reasonable priority of the civil peace of justice for what is done under colour of law. This undermines civil law as an act of highest reason that holds legitimacy beyond might and/or manipulation. Which is an open invitation to nihilism as we have seen. kairosfocus

“The gun lobby’s interpretation of the Second Amendment is one of the greatest pieces of fraud, I repeat the word fraud, on the American people by special interest groups that I have ever seen in my lifetime.”

JHolo

BA: How many examples do we need before we open our eyes to the glaring truth?

That is exactly what most Americans have been asking. JHolo

Guns are allowed at the NRA convention, but not when Trump is present. I guess the secret service never got the memo that guns aren’t the problem. JHolo

Uvalde has had an increase of illegal immigration even though the governor stopped plans by the border patrol to release 1000 migrants a day into the town. Knowing this - the school couldn't remember to keep the doors locked during school hours?

Uvalde residents voice concerns about increase in migrant border crossings “It was more controlled last year, and now we have this border thing out of control, and, you know, it puts us all in danger,” said Joe Benavides, a Uvalde resident. https://www.ksat.com/news/local/2021/03/25/uvalde-residents-voice-concerns-about-increase-in-migrant-border-crossings/ John Sewell, owner of the ranch near Uvalde, Texas, said his Lacys help ward off some would-be thieves. But the dogs can only do so much. He and Jim Volcsko -- a friend and former Customs and Border Protection officer who now works at the ranch -- are in a daily battle to keep up with the damage ... https://www.nationalreview.com/2022/04/nightmare-on-the-border-locals-left-to-fend-for-themselves-as-migrant-surge-overruns-ranches-towns/ Officials report an uptick in migrants boarding trains in Uvalde County. Border Patrol agents are discovering at times, more migrants concealed on a single day than were found in an entire month in years past. In June, one train was found to have more than 50 migrants concealed in the train cars and engine. ‘I had more dead people out here than I've ever had,’ one rancher said. https://www.breitbart.com/border/2021/07/24/migrant-hiding-on-texas-farm-near-border-run-over-killed-by-tractor/

Silver Asiatic

KF, I have been following the coverage. It appears that the police response was equal parts cowardly and incompetent. This underscores the conclusions of the OP. Columbine, Parkland and Uvalde prove beyond the slightest doubt that we cannot rest our children's lives on the off chance that a brave and competent police officer will intervene to save them. How many examples do we need before we open our eyes to the glaring truth? Barry Arrington

PS, was there a drone or camera monitoring the room? Were there mikes? Snipers using scopes? Thermal imaging? F/N: There were windows, I suspect a pulsed laser source could have monitored vibrations from a distance, reconstructing sounds within the room through pulse position modulation. Just to spark thoughts. kairosfocus

F/N: An input from a senior policing official in Texas: https://www.wnd.com/2022/05/top-texas-cop-uvalde-police-chief-made-wrong-decision/

Top Texas cop: Uvalde police chief made 'the wrong decision' 'There were plenty of officers to do whatever needed to be done' During the one hour and 17 minutes that elapsed Tuesday between the time the teen shooter entered Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas, and police officers breached a classroom door and killed him, teachers and children huddled inside made desperate phone calls to police, begging for someone to come save them. The decision by the on-scene commander to wait – having declared an active shooter situation had become a "barricaded suspect" situation – was the "wrong decision," acknowledged Col. Steven McCraw, director of the Texas Department of Public Safety, in a briefing Friday. McCraw disclosed that there were "plenty of officers" available on the scene "to do whatever needed to be done." "With the benefit of hindsight, where I'm sitting now, of course it was not the right decision, it was the wrong decision, period," McCraw said. "There was no excuse for that." The commander on the scene Tuesday was Uvalde, Texas, school district Police Chief Pete Arredondo. McCraw said Arredondo mistakenly believed it had become a barricade or hostage situation, that "they had time, and there were no kids at risk." "There were 19 officers in there," McCraw said. "In fact, there were plenty of officers to do whatever needed to be done, with one exception — the incident commander inside believed they needed more equipment and more officers to do a tactical breach at that point."

Cordon off and negotiate, in short. Columbine . . . KF kairosfocus

He didn't even have a driver's license. That should be a requirement. If you're not competent enough to have a driver's license you shouldn't be able to have a gun license. Heck, in Texas you have to have a truck with a gun rack. So, a driver's license should be mandatory. ET

Relatd, the point that needed to be made has been made. KF kairosfocus

KF at 382, Being a leading expert in anything does not cause necessary action. Just understanding the situation does not lead to action. The real world goes its own way and whatever was said here will not cause the necessary action. relatd

Relatd, start with this, UD's blog president is a leading expert on Columbine. Work it on out from there. KF kairosfocus

Andrew at 380, Wouldn't it be great if somebody actually contacted real people and talked to them? Offered them some advice, some suggestions? Or sat down with actual people in law enforcement? Is anybody willing to do that? relatd

"Nothing said here will affect anybody." Relatd Could be true for what you say, too. Andrew asauber

Actions are being taken. They will figure out the errors made and find a solution. Perhaps we should use the 40 billion some want for the Ukraine to fund school security and other measures. ET

KF at 376, Who will see or hear your wisdom? Right now, it's nobody. No one in real life. relatd

Andrew, You're not listening. Everything you're saying is in your head. Nothing said here will affect anybody. relatd

Relatd, analysis that first finds facts is the base for sound policy and action. It is action, the action of prizing and seeking wisdom. KF kairosfocus

"Talk is not action. More talk does not equal any action." Relatd, We needed more talking. Just for starters, if the officer assigned to the school would have talked to the teacher and told her to close and lock the door, things may have turned out better. Andrew asauber

Talk is not action. More talk does not equal any action. relatd

"It is a PEOPLE problem" ET, You are right. On the shooter side and on the security side. Andrew asauber

JHolo:

Throwing a teacher under the bus isn’t going to solve the problem.

Hey loser, what I said was a FACT. A teacher propped open the door. FACT. The gunman then had easy access to the school. And shut up about gun control. It is a PEOPLE problem, not a gun problem. ET

"Will you be there to tell them to lock the doors? Have you ever been in the military? Men are trained to be perfectly executing robots." Relatd, In my locality I can. If I'm a voice crying in the desert, so be it. I have not been in the military. Schools aren't military. They are teachers trying to deal with lots of kids. Everyone needs constant reminders about everything. Andrew asauber

Andrew at 368, Will you be there to tell them to lock the doors? Have you ever been in the military? Men are trained to be perfectly executing robots. I don't think you are continuing anything. Not here. Will you go out to train people now? I say this to point out that talk is talk. It is not action. relatd

Relatd, do you remember what was happening to Israel? Target hardening and border control worked. This was a case of cumulative failures to follow known sound steps. In particular, it was a policing failure. For just one aspect, 23 years ago, cordon off and negotiate was a known failure once nihilistic mass shooters and bombers and car mowers etc came on the scene, but here we see it again. KF kairosfocus

"You’re not making sense. This has happened before. And today, there are no new, new ideas. Do you understand?" Relatd, I think you don't understand. People are walking points of failure. They will never be perfectly executing robots. All you can do is the best you can to teach them. Its a continual process. I'm trying to continue the process. New ideas fail. People fail. Trying to minimize the failures of people is part of successful security. People have to be continuously reminded to keep the doors closed and locked. Andrew asauber

Andrew, You're not making sense. This has happened before. And today, there are no new, new ideas. Do you understand? The people who can make things happen need to make things happen. Chatter on the internet, here, does not make things happen. relatd

"And how does that help anyone?" Relatd, From failures we learn what not to do and what to do instead. And it's going to take all the individuals on the ground to make any security effective. So everybody who wants to keep their schools, etc, safer, not just the powerful, needs to know everything about what happened. The attitude that you can just have someone else take care of you is true stupidity. Andrew asauber

Andrew at 364, And how does that help anyone? And after every single detail is made public, how will that change anything? I'd like to point out that posting here will not affect those with the ability to change things - improve things. relatd

"The bottom line is that officer was not on scene, not on campus, but had heard the 911 call about the man with a gun, drove immediately to the area, sped to what he thought was the man with the gun, to the back of the school, to what turned out to be a teacher and not the suspect," He didn't tell her to close the door? And what did he do after that? Go to lunch? Andrew asauber

KF at 362, Nothing of value. Nothing. Talk is cheap and in this case, worthless. relatd

Relatd, cf 30 above. KF kairosfocus

Use the military as an example. A guard post at the parking lot. A fence surrounding the property topped with barbed wire. Security cameras that sweep the grounds on all sides, including blind spots. Additional guard posts at all entrances and exits. Internal security. Deploy the National Guard if need be. Increase Federal, State and local patrols at all schools. relatd

"All you do by this tactic is provide protection to those who can afford it." Keeping locking doors locked according to written policy doesn't cost anything. Andrew asauber

JH, Israel managed to do it. You already know the US govt's track record of nihilism, leading to growing disaffection. The result of yet another power grab will speak for itself. But a lot of other places will pay a price for chaos in the US. KF kairosfocus

"Effectively hardening soft targets and providing armed guards is very costly." I would think protecting the lives of children is worth the cost, especially when Big Gov't flushes Big Money down the toilet for pretty much any stupid reason. Andrew asauber

JH at 355, "gun control is a forbidden topic." Where, exactly, is this happening? Certainly not here. relatd

KF at 353. "culturally embedded factors" Which tells anyone what? And which solves the problem how? relatd

ET: It was complacency. They have security video of a teacher propping open the rear door, right around 11:30.

Throwing a teacher under the bus isn't going to solve the problem. Neither is hardening soft targets and arming teachers. Effectively hardening soft targets and providing armed guards is very costly. All you do by this tactic is provide protection to those who can afford it. There will always be soft targets. Instead of mass shootings being an equal opportunity killer, these tactics will limit those killed by mass shootings to the low income and other marginalized groups. Following a single bombing and 168 dead, restrictions were placed on the storage and sale of ammonium nitrate fertilizer. But following the 252nd mass shooting and 308th death, just this year, gun control is a forbidden topic. JHolo

ET, it looks like, there is need for a board with door status and perhaps central emergency lock. I wonder how that teacher feels. KF kairosfocus

Relatd, there have been summaries on culturally embedded factors that do seem to correlate with violence in society. KF kairosfocus

JH, you are off on another tangent, but just how do you define a livable wage? I am pretty sure it is not minimum wage. And for a job that is 2k hr/yr annual salary is hourly x 2k. $ 10/hr is $ 20k/y, etc. KF kairosfocus

KF at 350, And whatever was already outlined has accomplished what exactly? relatd

Relatd, some were already outlined. KF kairosfocus

Jerry: One of the more stupid comments made here.

If you have any evidence that most teachers don't earn less that the minimum liveable wage, let's hear it. Otherwise, your insipid comments just distract from any meaningful discussion. JHolo

It was complacency. They have security video of a teacher propping open the rear door, right around 11:30. ET

Then contact the government of Texas and tell them. Does anyone here think that posting 'the solution to everything' on an obscure internet forum will actually result in positive action? relatd

Homeland Security doesn't write gun laws. Each State is responsible for their own gun laws. In this case Texas was irresponsible. ET

Most teachers are paid less than the minimum living wage

One of the more stupid comments made here. jerry

This is Robert Cummings from the BBC. With me today is the Governor of Texas. Good afternoon, Mister Governor. "Good afternoon, Robert." You've read all of the comments here. What are your thoughts? "We know all this." I'm sure you're aware sir, that people want action. What can you tell them? "I'm tellin' them we're taking this very seriously and will do whatever we can." Thank you, Mister Governor. This is Robert Cummings from the BBC. * Robert Cummings is not an actual person. relatd

Most teachers are paid less than the minimum living wage. They have highly stressful jobs. One in five teachers are the victims of violence in the school. And people here want them to be given guns? JHolo

KF at 341, "society specific"? That wasn't very... uh, specific. Have you ever tried to construct a bomb? I know. Just screen out all the bad/evil people when they try to get a gun permit. relatd

SA it would simply have been a car mowing down or bombing incident instead. Kindly see 323 above on rankings of mass incidents and 307 for school incidents, things are not as the media commonly portray. Strength of gun laws is not a driving variable. It is obvious problems are society specific. KF kairosfocus

Posturing. There is enough evidence searched out and clipped here to show this is a policing failure first. With that level of policing, try gun confiscation and see why people will infer you want them to be helpless victims. I have already drawn out enough on the dynamics at work . PS, I remember a map with the WW1 Western front trench superposed on Texas, it didn't even span the state. kairosfocus

Bob O'Hara try to reduce the number of shootings

Wait.What? I thought you really believe in survival of the fittest. Do you believe in darwin or not? I know you suspend darwinism idiocy for a while because now it's time to became Jesus and tell us what morality is. Lieutenant Commander Data

SA at 336, Are you in the U.S.? Have you passed your suggestions about gun laws on to say, Homeland Security? relatd

Good to see Denyse @299 with the Canadian perspective. Guns were for hunters and also for protecting one's property when one was in a wilderness area. Good or bad, there was a big need for guns when native tribes would attack settlers. But bears and mountain lions and wolves were also a problem to deal with. Silver Asiatic

Sensible gun laws in Texas would have helped or maybe prevented the tragedy. Silver Asiatic

Tucker Carlson gave some details on the politics of the situation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ui8wgo3iI18 Several politicians and media personalities are putting almost all the emphasis on the NRA, believing that if they are stopped or curtailed, that will solve the problem of violence. But violence and crime has been increasing in America since Covid restrictions were in place. It's not just gun violence, but theft and other assaults. Also suicides among children are on the rise.

The gun lobby. Please. The NRA declared bankruptcy last year. The NRA is a husk. In 2021 for example, the tech companies spent more than $70 million lobbying congress. Big pharma spent 82 million lobbying congress in the first quarter of 2021 alone. The NRA spent just 2.2 million total lobbying in all of 2020, a presidential election year. Spare us. Whatever the problem is, it’s not the gun lobby. They are not the reason those children were murdered yesterday.

Silver Asiatic

"People in MA buy new guns all of the time." Their old guns wore out? relatd

Yes, Bob, the police were the problem. People in MA buy new guns all of the time. Laws do NOT stop bad people from doing bad things. ET

I see that the experts here have figured everything out. Alert Homeland Security :) Tell them to use Wikipedia more often. It's better than real, actual investigation. :) relatd

Now I'm reading that the shooter may have been previously arrested. Added: And then walked back. Andrew asauber

yes, ET., and even the police didn't want to go up against the shooter. A teacher generally doesn't wear body armour to school, but Barry wants to encourage them to engage shooters by giving them guns.

Do tell how gun control laws would eliminate all or even a small fraction of those guns?

I think you made the point in your very next paragraph:

Again, obviously someone dropped the ball in Texas. But Texas is to blame for having lame gun laws. There isn’t any way the shooter could have bought the guns had he lived in Massachusetts.

They stop people buying new guns. As you note, buy back schemes also work, and a "limited extent" would mean, I think, a "small fraction". But there can also be indirect cultural effects: these sorts of laws, plus laws about how guns should be stored and carried, can signal what is expected of people. If the social norm is to not carry guns around, they won't be carried around by many people. Changing social norms won't be easy or quick, of course, but it can be done. Bob O'H

Police have powerful weapons too, Bob. They have body amour and long, protective shields. Do tell how gun control laws would eliminate all or even a small fraction of those guns? Buying back guns has worked to a limited extent. But the bad guys don't have their guns registered. Again, obviously someone dropped the ball in Texas. But Texas is to blame for having lame gun laws. There isn't any way the shooter could have bought the guns had he lived in Massachusetts. ET

Barry, isn't that a distinction without a difference? You're still recommending that the solution to mass shootings at schools is to have teachers engage the shooters. Wouldn't it be better to try to reduce the number of shootings, and also make it harder for people to legally obtain weapons that are so powerful they scare the police? Also - you still haven't provided any evidence to back up your assertion that "no gun control law can eliminate all or even a small fraction of those guns". Bob O'H

Again I repeat. The violence/homicide rates are very skewed in the US. Most of the gun ownership is in low violence areas. So if the US is violence prone and due to guns, why these discrepancies? Another repeat: this debate has nothing to do with people being killed by guns. For those not US citizens, we have a lot of Monday Morning Quarterbacking going on. jerry

"The official story still does not add up." KF, I agree. I'm still having trouble digesting the fact that a school facility with a security fence all the way around it left a door to the outside unlocked. That kind of failure really makes the whole security setup symbolic, instead of effective. I know this caught everyone by surprise, but this was an enabled worst case scenario. Andrew asauber

F/N: A further official claim: https://www.breitbart.com/border/2022/05/26/exclusive-police-initially-lacked-ballistic-shield-needed-to-reach-barricaded-texas-school-shooter/

Multiple law enforcement sources revealed to Breitbart Texas that part of the delay in stopping the barricaded elementary school shooter hinged on a deadly mix of the shooter’s defensive tactics and the lack of needed gear. Specifically, officers lacked the ballistic shield needed to enter the classroom with the barricaded shooter. Attempting to breach the door without a ballistic shield would have resulted in certain death for the officers which could have provided the shooter with the officers’ weapons and ammunition. There is also the possibility that the shooter could have taken police communications gear off of the officers’ bodies, thereby giving the shooter the ability to listen to police movement and plans. A Border Patrol source with knowledge of the methods used by the hastily formed team of law enforcement officers to engage the suspect described the difficulty faced by the officers. The source, with decades of prior experience on the Border Patrol’s elite BORTAC team, says the situation became much more difficult to resolve once the shooter barricaded himself in the classroom . . .

Immediately, why were the doors not locked once shooting began across the street? Why was there not adequate protection at entry? Why didn't teachers lock the same class doors? And, an armed teacher backing up the same door would have posed the same challenge to the shooter. Next, we see:

[a] source, not authorized to speak to the media, told Breitbart Texas a barricaded subject is the most difficult tactical situation to resolve. In this case, the source says the shooter most likely planned the attack days or weeks in advance, perhaps prior to the purchase of two AR-15 style rifles and the ammunition he carried onto the school grounds. According to the source, officers at the scene who had been trained in advanced tactical procedures located a level IV ballistic shield. This tool allowed them to approach the shooter without immediately being killed. A United States Marshal Service employee acquired the necessary ballistic shield that ultimately allowed the quickly formed tactical team to enter the building and reach the barricaded shooter. Even with the shield, as reported by Breitbart Texas, one of the Border Patrol agents who rushed the shooter still suffered a grazing gunshot wound to the head. The law enforcement team did not wait for personal protective equipment before acting. Another Border Patrol agent was also on the makeshift tactical team and fired the shots believed to have stopped the suspect, the source confirmed. “If the subject can effectively take out an officer, he gains one more weapon, more loaded magazines, and law enforcement communications are instantly compromised allowing the suspect to know what the next plan of attack is,” the source explained. Breitbart Texas spoke to a local law enforcement official who also says small-town police departments lack access to this equipment due to funding issues. The official says he is dismayed at the false premise that officers on the scene were afraid to enter. The official, speaking on the condition of anonymity due to the ongoing investigation, told Breitbart Texas one officer poised at the window of the classroom could not gain access and ultimately lost his child who was inside the room.

Aha, window confirmed. So, why not a two point simultaneous entry guided by surveillance? Led by flash bangs or smoke and a heavy battering ram? Maybe, with a vehicle to effect the window breach in coordination with the doorway, so the assault has two rapid ingress streams of effectives following on noise, flash, smoke? (Has there always been a Level IV shield tactical requirement? I doubt it. And why wasn't one within a 30 minute helicopter delivery range? It seems there was tardiness and the OODA loop was compromised by surprise.) Was there no sniping opportunity? As for, oh you assault and lose an officer he gets more stuff, Lanchester's n-square law obtains. Relative combat power goes as the square of comparable firepower units, leading to accelerating disproportionate attrition rates. In short, overwhelm and press home under these circumstances. The official story still does not add up. KF kairosfocus

BA, was it actually learned, taken to heart and mainstreamed -- made a routine part of doctrine, training, decision making, action? KF kairosfocus

F/N: Let me simply note for record from IBD: https://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/sorry-despite-gun-control-advocates-claims-u-s-isnt-the-worst-country-for-mass-shootings/

Sorry, Despite Gun-Control Advocates' Claims, U.S. Isn't The Worst Country For Mass Shootings 06:35 PM ET 02/20/2018 Gun Deaths: It's become commonplace to hear after a U.S. shooting tragedy that, when it comes to guns, America is just more violent than other countries, especially those in Europe, where many countries have stiff gun control laws. It's a progressive shibboleth, but even some conservatives agree. The only problem is, it's not true. Yes, America does have a lot of gun violence. But more than other countries, especially in Europe? To listen to America's politicians, you'd think that was the case. President Obama talked about it a lot, including in June of 2015, after a gunman shot nine people in a Charleston, North Carolina church: "Let's be clear: At some point, we as a country will have to reckon with the fact that this type of mass violence does not happen in other advanced countries," Obama said. Days later, Sen. Harry Reid echoed his comments. "The United States is the only advanced country where this kind of mass violence occurs," he said. More recently, the tragic, preventable slaying of 17 students by accused gunman Nikolas Cruz elicited similar sentiments from Sen. Chris Murphy of Connecticut, speaking in the Senate just last Thursday: "This happens nowhere else other than the United States of America." Powerful remarks, and no doubt heartfelt. But a study of global mass-shooting incidents from 2009 to 2015 by the Crime Prevention Research Center, headed by economist John Lott, shows the U.S. doesn't lead the world in mass shootings. In fact, it doesn't even make the top 10, when measured by death rate per million population from mass public shootings. So who's tops? Surprisingly, Norway is, with an outlier mass shooting death rate of 1.888 per million (high no doubt because of the rifle assault by political extremist Anders Brevik that claimed 77 lives in 2011). No. 2 is Serbia, at just 0.381, followed by France at 0.347, Macedonia at 0.337, and Albania at 0.206. Slovakia, Finland, Belgium, and Czech Republic all follow. Then comes the U.S., at No. 11, with a death rate of 0.089. That's not all. There were also 27% more casualties from 2009 to 2015 per mass shooting incident in the European Union than in the U.S. "There were 16 cases where at least 15 people were killed," the study said. "Out of those cases, four were in the United States, two in Germany, France, and the United Kingdom." "But the U.S. has a population four times greater than Germany's and five times the U.K.'s, so on a per-capita basis the U.S. ranks low in comparison — actually, those two countries would have had a frequency of attacks 1.96 (Germany) and 2.46 (UK) times higher." Yes, the U.S. rate is still high, and nothing to be proud of. But it's not the highest in the developed world. Not by a long shot.

They continue:

Yet, some today propose banning rifles, in particular AR-15s, because they've been used in a number of mass killings. It's important to note however that, according to FBI crime data cited this week by the Daily Caller, deaths by knives in the U.S. outnumber deaths by rifles by five to 1: In 2016, 1,604 people were killed by knives and other cutting instruments, while 374 were killed by rifles. So is it not fair to ask: If we're banning rifles, why not knives, too? The point is, guns aren't the problem; deranged killers that grow up in broken families often without positive male role models in their lives are the problem. So are political and religious extremists, in particular Islamists. If these people didn't have guns, they would find some other means to do the job. Bombs are illegal in both the U.S. and Europe. Yet Europe loses far more people to bombings than the U.S. Doesn't that make them more violent?

Sobering. Next, a battle of studies: https://fee.org/articles/the-myth-that-the-us-leads-the-world-in-mass-shootings/

how did the narrative that the US leads the world in mass shootings become the conventional wisdom? The myth, it turns out, stems from University of Alabama associate professor Adam Lankford. Lankford’s name pops up in a montage of media reports which cite his research as evidence that America leads the world in mass shootings. The violence, Lankford said, stems from the high rate of gun ownership in America. “The difference between us and other countries, [which] explains why we have more of these attackers, was the firearm ownership rate,” Lankford said. “In other words: firearms per capita. We have almost double the firearm ownership rate of any other country.” Lankford’s findings show that there were 90 mass public shooters in America since 1966, the most in the world, which had a total of 202. But Lott, using Lankford’s definition of a mass shooting—“four or more people killed”—found more than 3,000 such shootings, John Stossel recently reported . . .

Then, there are some weak argument correctives: https://www.maciverinstitute.com/2021/04/debunking-every-major-myth-about-mass-shootings-in-america/ Let's cite one:

Myth 2: Mass shootings happen all the time in America As a result of this, the public is led to believe that random incidents of mass murder happen all the time in America. So far in 2021, the Gun Violence Archive has recorded 156 incidents that it defines as “mass shootings.” Just 12, though, meet the FBI’s definition of a “mass murder.” At least seven of them were domestic violence incidents, and just five are included in the Washington Post database as traditional “mass killing” incidents. In 70 of the Gun Violence Archive’s 156 mass shootings, a full 45%, no one was killed. In 118 of them (76%), either no one or one person was killed. Just three percent (five out of 156) meet the commonly understood definition of a “mass killing.” The Gun Violence Archive’s database is valuable as a tool for statistical analysis, but when politicians or members of the media cite it to make the point that “mass shootings happen every day in America,” they confuse the public into believing that the overwhelming majority of these incidents are not domestic violence or gang-related shootouts that kill or injure innocent bystanders as well as the intended targets. In reality, most are. This is not to say that any of them are in any way acceptable, but it is simply not true to suggest that one might die simply by going to the mall. Researchers in 2015 examined each one of the 358 mass shooting incidents in the Gun Violence Archive’s database that year and found that two-thirds of them were either gang-related or resulted from arguments between groups of people—many of whom were drunk or high. Another 11% of the mass shooting incidents were domestic violence-related, resulting in a full 31% of all deaths in mass shootings that year. A substantial number of the remaining 24% of mass shooting incidents were robbery-related or committed in the commission of some other crime in high-crime areas of major or mid-sized cities. A staggering 90% of all mass shootings occurred in areas with higher-than-average poverty rates.

So, we have some points to factor in. KF kairosfocus

KF "BA, likely, they were under orders to do cordon off and negotiate." Perhaps. And if that order were given, whoever gave it should be relieved of command. If anything was learned at Columbine it was "set up a perimeter and negotiate" is the ultimate failed strategy. Barry Arrington

Yes, someone dropped the ball. Maybe people became complacent. And there are too many conflicting stories coming out. ET

Chuckdarwin Get real, KF. The NRA is a cesspool of corruption and lobbying overreach……

I think you are very confused . Darwin "survival of the fittest" supersede any morality .Talk about the survival of survivors and let morality to theology. Lieutenant Commander Data

ET, why didn't the teachers start by locking the doors once shooting was diagonally across the street, why was there an unlocked back door? (Mind you, I remember being upstairs in a Sunday School class only to be shocked to see on the street just below, one man chasing another and shooting at him.) KF kairosfocus

CD, your blanket smears are duly noted, it is a fact that in their membership one will find a pool of highly qualified expertise on relevant topics. Your trollish blanket hostility leading to dismissal of inconvenient fact is duly noted, yet again. KF kairosfocus

Bob O'H:

So you’re saying that the correct response to situations that are too dangerous for the police is to have teachers go into them?

Wow. The teachers are already in, duh. The bad people are entering their classrooms. Then the teachers shoot the bad people. ET

Get real, KF. The NRA is a cesspool of corruption and lobbying overreach...... (https://www.amazon.com/Inside-NRA-Tell-All-Corruption-Political/dp/1538737256) chuckdarwin

LCD, rum is enough much less a strong dose of ganja as we call it where I come from. CD, predictable, needlessly polarising and useless in reply to a SWAT officer. BTW NRA is a pool of relevant expertise and as of right are stakeholders. KF kairosfocus

F/N: Found, a May 26 officially given timeline: https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/paula-bolyard/2022/05/26/timeline-shifts-again-in-uvalde-school-shooting-n1601275

Victor Escalon, South Texas regional director of the Department of Public Safety, told reporters that “there’s a lot of information, a lot of moving parts” to the investigation. “We want to know what happened, recreate the scene. That takes days, that takes hours, that takes time.” He noted that Texas Rangers are heading the investigation into the shooting, assisted by ATF, FBI, CBP, and the Uvalde County District Attorney’s Office. Here’s the latest account of events from Texas authorities (all times Central). 11:01 am: Ramos calls a girl in Germany he had met online and tells her he loves her. 11:21 am: Twenty minutes later, he texts the teen girl, saying that he had shot his grandmother and plans to “shoot up a(n) elementary school.” Police say Ramos shot his grandmother in the face. She is in serious condition at a San Antonio hospital. 11:28 am: Law-enforcement officials receive the first 911 call reporting a crash involving what was later identified as Ramos’ vehicle. Initially, officials had said they received a report of a crashed vehicle and a man in body armor carrying a rifle eight minutes earlier, at 11:20 a.m. Ramos exits the passenger side of the car, heads in the direction of a funeral home across the street, and begins firing shots at people in the parking lot there. No one was injured in that shooting. Ramos then heads to Robb Elementary School and hops the fence adjacent to the west entrance. 11:40 am: Ramos enters the school unimpeded and begins firing. “Numerous rounds are discharged at the school,” said Escalon. Steve McCraw, the Texas director of public safety, claimed on Wednesday that an armed school security officer “encountered” Ramos but did not exchange gunfire with him. He said at the time that the officer followed Ramos into the school and “rounds were exchanged.” According to Escalon, that information was “not accurate.” He said that, based on video obtained by officials, the shooter “walked in unobstructed, initially” and fired upward of 25 rounds when he first entered the building. For the next few minutes, Ramos walks the halls of the school and enters an adjoining classroom connected by open doors. He barricades himself in the rooms with children and two teachers. It’s not known how Ramos managed to barricade himself in the classroom. “We’re still trying to establish if there was any type of locking mechanism on the doorway from inside the classroom,” Escalon said. 11:43 am: Three minutes later, Robb Elementary School announces it is going on lockdown, and Uvalde Police post a note on its Facebook page advising people to avoid the area of the school. 11:44 am: Four minutes after Ramos entered the building, law enforcement officials arrive at the school and make entry. “They hear gunfire, they take rounds, they move back to get cover, and during that time they approach the place where the suspect is at,” said Escalon. “According to the information I have [Ramos] went in at 11:40, he walked approximately 20 feet, 30 feet. He makes a right. He walks through the hallway, he makes a right, walks another 20 feet, turns left into a schoolroom, into a classroom that has doors open in the middle.” “Officers are there, the initial officers that received gunfire,” he explained. “They don’t make entry initially because of the gunfire they’re receiving, but we have officers calling for additional resources, anybody that’s in the initial area: tactical teams, we need equipment, we need specialty equipment, we need body armor. We need precision riflemen [and] negotiators. So during this time that they’re making those calls to bring in help—to solve this problem and stop it immediately—they’re also evacuating personnel. When I say personnel, students, teachers. There’s a lot going on. A complex situation.” During this time, according to Escalon, negotiators were trying to reach the shooter. “During negotiations, there wasn’t much gunfire other than trying to keep the officers at bay.” Asked by reporters whether negotiators were able to make contact with Ramos, Escalon said, “right now, according to information, he did not respond.” Between the time Ramos entered the building and the moment he was shot, police “were taking gunfire, [conducting] negotiations, and developing a team to make entry to stop him.” He said he could not confirm reports that parents waiting outside the police perimeter were pleading with officers to go in and rescue their children. 12:17 pm: Uvalde Consolidated Independent School District posts messages on Facebook and Twitter alerting the community to the active-shooter situation playing out at the school. Around 12:35 pm: “Approximately an hour later, U.S. Border tactical teams arrive. They make entry, shoot and kill the suspect,” Escalon said. “But you also had a Uvalde County deputy and Uvalde Police Department that made entry and killed the suspect. Immediately, immediately, numerous officers now charge into a rescue operation. How do we save these children? Some made it out. We don’t have a hard number yet, but that was the goal.” 1:06 pm: Nearly two hours after the initial call to police, the Uvalde Police Department posted on its Facebook page that the shooter was “in custody.”

Policing failure for the post-Columbine world. Why didn't the school go into lockdown once shots were fired in the vicinity? If cops struggled to get through doors the shooter should have had more problems. Likewise, SWAT teams should have been underway as soon as the school was on lockdown and gave alert. Target hardening issues jump out at us. KF kairosfocus

AD/294 The old seatbelt analogy, huh? Sounds like a silly NRA talking point to me.... chuckdarwin

Police cuffed and pepper-sprayed parents trying to rescue children ‘They didn’t do that to the shooter, but they did that to us’

What?Looks like a "coordination" for more victims ? Who remember police stand down orders when Antifa attacked conservatives? PS:I've heard there are drugs that make you feel invincible and don't have fear anymore . What could happen if you drug a person then give him a gun ? Lieutenant Commander Data

BA, likely, they were under orders to do cordon off and negotiate. Given prospective lawsuits, they seem to be in info lockdown mode. And as a world authority on Columbine, your comment, "We’ve known since Columbine that the only acceptable response to an active shooter scenario is to charge in at once" carries serious weight. Why were the cops operating under an outdated paradigm, when PARENTS were volunteering or even attempting to go in? KF kairosfocus

BO'H, notice that in 32 he endorsed 30 above. He has in mind a bigger picture similar to what Israel did. KF kairosfocus

Bob at 308. You don't seem to understand my proposal at all. I am not calling for school staff to act as police so that they can run in and defend someone else who is being attacked. I am calling for school staff to be armed so they will have the means to defend themselves and the children in their care when they are being attacked. It seems to me the difference is obvious. No one is calling on them to run into a burning building. I am asking for them to be given the tools to get out of the burning building they are already in. And your suggestion that it was "too dangerous" for the police to respond is risible. Of course, it was dangerous, but it was not too dangerous to go in. We've known since Columbine that the only acceptable response to an active shooter scenario is to charge in at once. The fact that the cops were too cowardly or stupid to do so (If that were the case. I do not know. The facts are still being developed.) does not change that. Barry Arrington

Barry's argument in the OP is that the solution to gunmen attacking schools is to arm teachers. But here we had a situation where armed police did not want to go into the school. So you're saying that the correct response to situations that are too dangerous for the police is to have teachers go into them? Don't you think it might be better to look for an alternative approach? Bob O'H

F/N: List of school massacres https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_massacres_by_death_toll kairosfocus

F/N: More emerges . . . Twitter:

Saagar Enjeti @esaagar A Uvalde mother was PLACED IN HANDCUFFS by Federal Marshalls on scene for attempting to enter the school to get her child. Another man was tased for trying to get his kid off a bus. All while Salvador Ramos was alive inside killing kids https://wsj.com/articles/uvalde-residents-voice-frustration-over-shooting-response-11653588161?mod=panda_wsj_author_alert

WSJ: https://www.wsj.com/articles/uvalde-residents-voice-frustration-over-shooting-response-11653588161

Uvalde Shooter Fired Outside School for 12 Minutes Before Entering Local residents express anger and frustration as police detail new timeline of mass shooting [paywall follows]

WND https://www.wnd.com/2022/05/police-cuffed-pepper-sprayed-parents-trying-rescue-children/

Police cuffed and pepper-sprayed parents trying to rescue children 'They didn't do that to the shooter, but they did that to us' WND News Services By WND News Services Published May 26, 2022 at 5:31pm Law enforcement officers pepper-sprayed and handcuffed parents who tried to enter Robb Elementary School to retrieve their children during a Monday mass shooting, a mother who was at the scene told The Wall Street Journal. Angeli Rose Gomez drove 40 miles to the school, where her children are in second and third grade, upon hearing about the shooting and found police standing outside the building, according to the WSJ. Gomez and other parents urged the officers to enter the school with increasing intensity until authorities began detaining them. “They were just standing outside the fence. They weren’t going in there or running anywhere,” she told the WSJ. Police tackled a father to the ground and used pepper spray on another man, Gomez told the WSJ. Federal marshals handcuffed Gomez and told her she was being arrested after she demanded they go into the building, but she had police officers she knew convince the marshals to remove the cuffs, she told the WSJ. Gomez eventually ran into the school, got her two kids and sprinted away, according to the WSJ. After the shooting ended, she saw police use a taser on a father approaching a bus to retrieve his child. “They didn’t do that to the shooter, but they did that to us. That’s how it felt,” Gomez told the WSJ. Law enforcement officers engaged the gunman as he entered the classroom, but the shooter barricaded himself inside for between 30 and 60 minutes, during which time he shot and killed 19 students and two teachers, according to multiple sources. The police did not breach the classroom until about an hour after the shooter entered, when they got a staff member to unlock the door with a key, according to the Associated Press.

Policing failure, trending tragic fiasco. KF kairosfocus

JH, First, it is now quite clear that the policing failed here and given Columbine as precedent multi million or worse law suits are in plausible prospect. Accordingly, official statements must be discounted as defensive i/l/o likely legal actions. Set up an after the fact cordon and wait while negotiations failed as badly as would have assuming that hijackers of aircraft just want to fly somewhere else and make political statements on Sept 11, 2001. Next, that is made worse by the fact that PARENTS were trying to get or even carry out interventions while up to perhaps 150 police were standing around (standing implying, they saw little tactical threat). This is on tape, I doubt you attended to the clipped reports above. Third, the intervention was not what is advisable, it sounds like one or a few officers either ignored control or were from enough of a different jurisdiction that they could act as they saw to be needed. I think it is advisable for at minimum two to try to clear a room with hostiles, as split attention gives precious time to act, reducing pretty serious risk. From DM, the officer had a head graze and was hit in the foot. That means the shooter was likely shooting at the head, and similarly his harness created the impression he was armoured. [I gather kits are as low as US$ 500, a lot less than he seems to have spent on each rifle]. The signs are, this was long contemplated. That is context for the basic point that there is a problem on the table, repeated failure to harden targets, and obviously flawed police action. This is backed by the partisan use of filibuster in 2013 to block a bill that proposed to spend US$ 300 mn on, target hardening. So, we see why there is going to be a predictable subject switching in the media, long since the propaganda arm of the party that blocked action then. Turning to your talk point, the reality is that the US is different, and the most obvious comparison is Israel which has had decades of armed attacks on civilians in facilities and homes or in the public. They managed by border control and target hardening. That's why suicide bombing attacks, gun attacks, car ramming attacks, knife attacks and mob attacks have not continued to be a dreary daily routine. Whatever else is to be done, target hardening is obvious and has not been seriously done over the past 23 years. Something is wrong and target hardening does not fit a policy agenda so we need to deconstruct the media subject switching and media narrative. Something pretty misanthropic, anticivilisational and nihilistic is going on and it is going on in places that control the dominant media narrative. That makes whodunit easy as the major US Media are one party, by and large, increasingly uniparty/establishment otherwise. The obvious context is the mass slaughter of 63 million of living posterity in the womb over 49 years, backed by indefensible acts under colour of law and by resistance to attempts to stop or reduce it. Currently we see unprecedented breach of Court confidentiality. Likely, you did not read what I pointed out above on the policy import of this, growing disaffection. A state that is that nihilistic will alienate a good many people who for cause will see in this and similar acts (refusal to implement reasonable border control or restrain red guards while pouncing on others as insurrectionists on lines of the Reichstag fire incident come to mind) a long train of abuses and usurpations. When such a government fixates on firearms confiscation in a country that exists BECAUSE the ordinary man was armed and rose up April 19 1775 in the face of weapons confiscation -- think Minute men here -- then many will draw, for cause, further inference to a long train of abuses and usurpations. BTW, how many other countries exist BECAUSE ordinary people were armed and experienced in use of firearms in military style contexts? My guess is just one, Israel. Which has as a further shaping event the Holocaust including the Warsaw and Auschwitz uprisings. Maybe, we can add to a limited extent Switzerland. I suppose the treaties that settled the wars with the Maori could count to some degree, and maybe similar treaties with the Maroons of Jamaica, who BTW were called out as auxiliaries in 1865. The message is, the US is pretty unique, and firearms confiscation will have a very different significance there. I note, that an obvious part of the reason why there are now something like 400 million guns with trillions of rounds in the hands of perhaps 100 million is the sending of a message to the would be confiscators. Every time confiscation is pushed, purchases surge. Message, don't go there. You do have a gun-using violence problem and a bigger gun using suicide problem. But that problem simply does not match what would be the case were the average gun owner lawless and aggressive. Indeed, there is evidence that heaviest gun ownership is not correlated with heaviest violence. In addition, there is a mass killings in soft target zones problem. One that most often involves guns but also involves edged weapons, use of vehicles to mow people down [just last Christmas, and media were suspiciously silent], and bombs. Why such nihilistic behaviour in what amounts to a movement? For one, there are enough alienated nihilistic people willing to take out rage in this way. For two, lawsuits etc blocked institutionalisation of the violent insane, which is also connected to homelessness issues. For three there is a correlation to use of psychoactive drugs for ADHD especially ritalin. In this context, drug control of school discipline problems is a suppressed issue. Do not overlook the potential implications of use of marijuana in a day where average THC concentration has moved from 3 to 9 percent with significant cases 20+ percent up to 45%. Marijuana and hashish have been connected to berserker style and to suicidal attacks for what, a thousand years. Assassin is connected to hashish, historically. And more. We also should note that gangster style mass shootings do not receive similar media emphasis. Further to all this, at a time when opiod smuggling and terrorist or gang infiltration are obvious threats, there has been a big media push to break down enforcement of border security. This in a context where de facto civil war with copious use of actual assault rifles [selective fire, intermediate cartridge, 20 - 30+ round magazines] is just across the key border. Add to that, a state of 4th gen civil war emergent since 2016 - 17. Complete with media and state backed red guard mobs. Under these circumstances with proved misanthropic nihilistic radicals dominating government, a major gun confiscation and criminalisation push would predictably be taken as causus belli. It would be April 19, 1775 again. So, there is a big difference. And, the USN is guardian of global trade and order, successor to the RN. Chaos in the US would open horrific geostrategic opportunities. Geostrategic vultures, rest assured, know this. It is no coincidence that the Ukraine push is at this time, or that China is pushing up the pressure on Taiwan. As for Iran. So, I suggest that policy rethinking is advisable. The obvious thing to do is target hardening, so why is there so much resistance? Gun confiscation would lead to chaos so why is there repeated push on that point as though there is no recognition that a better solution is de escalation leading to a more reasonable regulatory stance? And much more. I think it would be advisable to allow facts to be clarified and confirmed on t5his case then go after the low hanging fruit. Beyond, reasonable de escalation of the US 4th gen civil war might bring the US to sounder ground. KF kairosfocus

es58: Could be coming. If roe is overturned maybe life will be seen to have value again. We can hope. I suspect that’s what so devalued life here in the first place.

Again, ignoring the the lack of mass shootings in countries where abortion on demand is legal. Blaming Roe V. Wade for all the mass shootings is getting tiresome. You might as well be blaming the consumption of Egg McMuffins. JHolo

Forgive the profanity, but I think this is relevant. https://youtu.be/YxItwbVj8LA JHolo

ToJholo : . I was obviously naive. I was hoping for a country that was willing to take the steps necessary to make changes. I was obviously wrong Could be coming. If roe is overturned maybe life will be seen to have value again. We can hope. I suspect that's what so devalued life here in the first place. es58

I apologize. I keep trying to compare the US against “peer” nations. But, obviously, the US does not have “peer” nations. The US is in a category all its own. And, obviously, more than happy to be in a category all its own. A category of unprecedented mass shootings, unprecedented school shootings, unprecedented gun violence, where the leading cause of death of children is a bullet. I was obviously naive. I was hoping for a country that was willing to take the steps necessary to make changes. I was obviously wrong. JHolo

AnimatedDust

That the police waited outside forever is complete fiction.

Whoever told you this does not know what they are talking about. Here is a paragraph from the Wiki entry. It is fairly accurate. A federal court correctly ruled that the law enforcement's delay in entering the building "shocked the conscience." I was the attorney for the families mentioned in the sentence set out in bold.

After the massacre, many survivors and relatives of deceased victims filed lawsuits.[130] Under Colorado state law at the time, the maximum a family could receive in a lawsuit against a government agency was $600,000.[268] Most cases against the Jeffco police department and school district were dismissed by the federal court on the grounds of government immunity.[269] The case against the sheriff's office regarding the death of Dave Sanders was not dismissed due to the police preventing paramedics from going to his aid for hours after they knew the gunmen were dead. The case was settled out of court in August 2002 for $1,500,000.[270] In April 2001, the families of more than 30 victims received a $2,538,000 settlement in their case against the families of Harris, Klebold, Manes, and Duran.[271] Under the terms of the settlement, the Harrises and the Klebolds contributed $1,568,000 through their homeowners' policies, with another $32,000 set aside for future claims; the Manes contributed $720,000, with another $80,000 set aside for future claims; and the Durans contributed $250,000, with an additional $50,000 available for future claims.[271] The family of victim Shoels rejected this settlement, but in June 2003 were ordered by a judge to accept a $366,000 settlement in their $250-million lawsuit against the shooters' families.[272][273] In August 2003, the families of victims Fleming, Kechter, Rohrbough, Townsend, and Velasquez received undisclosed settlements in a wrongful death suit against the Harrises and Klebolds.[272]

Barry Arrington

This afternoon, Toronto police shot and killed a man seen carrying a rifle near several schools: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-toronto-police-kill-man-scarborough-school-lockdown/ If you are looking for helpless hippie colonies to shower with approval, you might best leave Canada out of the search. It strikes me that advocates for gun control overlook a simple fact: If most people in a state can have a gun, strict new gun control laws will mainly disarm the law-abiding, leaving them at the mercy of the non-law-abiding. It's different in Canada because, historically, most people who are not sports hunters or farmers, etc., didn't have guns to begin with. Criminals with illegal weapons are a problem, to be sure, but that's why having a gun incites suspicion in the police. So if you live in a low crime zone (very usual in Canada), you probably don't need a gun and it would be just as well not to have one. But that's very different from Texas where lots of people have guns. I think Barry is onto something. Armed security guards for schools might prevent these kinds of incidents. At any rate, they could give it a decade-long trial in several states and see. News

AD: You focus too much on semantics.

I’m sorry. But armed guards and “hardened targets” for schools are not semantics. They are reasons for parents to move to another state or country.

Don’t like hard target? Try ‘common sense security measures.’

I prefer actions that don’t require hardened targets and security measures at schools. Like is the case in most western nations. Does the right to bare arms really outweigh the right of kids to enjoy a school experience that is safe? JHolo

You focus too much on semantics. Don’t like hard target? Try ‘common sense security measures.’ AnimatedDust

Those who came in with a gun on their hip received discount beer.

I think you are making it up. The scenario you suggest would cost the bar owner their Tennessee state alcohol license, and the gun owner would lose their carry permit for a minimum of 3 years, plus fines. OhReally

KF: JH, I pointed out that other places have more than you imagine.

Really? Then why didn’t your examples include other developed nations. You know. Canada, Australia, New Zealand, most European countries. Scandinavian countries. Let’s be honest. The US leads the developed nations in mass shootings. By a huge margin. And why is that? Let me give you an example. I was in Nashville a few years ago. I went to dinner at a pub. It was a special night at the pub. Open carry night. Those who came in with a gun on their hip received discount beer. Because, we all know, nothing bad has ever come from the combination of alcohol and firearms. But you think the problem is that US schools don’t have enough armed guards and barbed wire. Did you ever think that the major problem is the fact that too many think that US schools don’t have enough armed guards and barbed wire? My daughter is an elementary school teacher in a big city. No armed guards. No police. No barbed wire. No locked doors. Visitors are expected to check in with the office before entering. Isn’t this what the goal should be? None of this “hardened target” BS. JHolo

Does one decline a seatbelt unless one has been in recent accidents? AnimatedDust

AD/282 So, AD, you been in a lot of gunfights lately? chuckdarwin

JHolo

KF: JH, very different circumstances and you may be surprised to learn of attacks in other places, often with knives etc.

Your shifting of issues is duly noted.

:) Very strange , your brain is so perceptive to "detect" a shifting that is not but in the same time your brain can't detect the most obvious shift of narative that is operated by legacy media. Legacy media is a psy-op structure. Many people (including on this forum) don't talk about reality but about what media(the owners of media) fabricate as narrative of the day and wants people to focus on. . If media would focus 24 hour on abortions and would show videos with dismembered babies again and again and tv crews would be present to transmit live on every single one of the performed abotion that would change the perception on what millions of crimes of innocent babies means compared with the result of a demented that killed 20 people. There is no comparation. Remember Russia-hoax and the focus of legacy media every day for years ? Was false and succeded because is a tool for controlling the perception of unaware people (sadly,very large bulk of population). Even today still are people who believe that Russian hoax is real . Same thing with George Floyds , covid19, Hunter Laptop, Ukraine , fabricated "leak" of Supreme Court,etc and the present subject we talk about. Lieutenant Commander Data

The Myth That the US Leads the World in Mass Shootings https://fee.org/articles/the-myth-that-the-us-leads-the-world-in-mass-shootings/ Silver Asiatic

Kairosfocus, the question is, why is the US not low threat? Why does a US kid in those circumstances you describe, kill his grandmother and then go and kill a classroom full of children? Why does this happen time and time again? TimR

AD, BTW, I recall a moment when the notorious killer Copper was in a Hall of Residence common room behind the door, watching TV. (And yes students in the room knew who it was.) A patrolman stuck head in the door, saw all seemed okay, stepped out again. Those corners . . . Clearing a room is never easy or safe. KF kairosfocus

JH, I pointed out that other places have more than you imagine. Something has set nihilistic blood lust loose and that danger has to be addressed. After the first Viking raids, people had to plan how to defend themselves for what 300 years? The best parallel as I noted is Israel. Meanwhile there is now enough on the table to see that this was at first level, policing failure. Target hardening would have made all the difference. KF kairosfocus

KF: JH, very different circumstances and you may be surprised to learn of attacks in other places, often with knives etc.

Your shifting of issues is duly noted. JHolo

AD: We have a mentally illness, lack of God, me first and f*ck you culture that worships violence. (John Wick anyone?)

John Wick did very well in Canada, Australia, New Zealand and most of Europe. And I have not seen any data that mental illness is any worse in the US than anywhere else.

We reap what we sow.

Apparently more so in the US than anywhere else.

Where, might I ask, do you reside?

You might ask. JHolo

TimR, the relevant comparison is Israel not places lucky enough to be low threat. We can deal with root causes onward but right now mass killings targetting schools etc and churches etc are a reality. Kid gets chided by Granny over academic non performance, shoots her and goes 1/4 mile it seems to attack an elementary school. He says he is working at a restaurant to buy guns and ammo, buys two guns. My bet is, he had that school in mind for some time. Unfortunately 23 years after Columbine, this school was not ready. Sen Cruz is saying 10 y back his school hardening bill was filibustered. But this is not bills it is you are prone to raids. Late C19 in the little red schoolhouse, older kids carried weapons in case of raids. KF PS, the USN guards the seas as once the RN did. English Harbour is about 30 miles from me as I comment, Nelson was based there. kairosfocus

It just baffles me that people in this thread use words like "hardening targets" when you are talking about schools. The idea of arming teachers etc. The rest of the world looks on in incomprehension. How did America get to this place? How does it get out of it? I've spent a lot of time in the US. We are not such different people (I'm from NZ). Pretty much share all the same values, love of family, kids etc. Jerry: "To compare Canada, New Zealand or other western democracies and their completely different ethnic make up is absurd. None of these western countries would last 6 months if the US disappeared. And they know it". what do you mean by this? As I said, I have been to America many times (and to Canada, Australia, Europe). I have a couple of good friends here in NZ who are Americans who have emigrated. We're pretty similar people in many ways. TimR

AD at 278, I don't understand the appeal of John Wick. I lived through the last 40 years. Those who wanted their "freedom" kept hammering down the door of normalcy. Things were about 50/50 in 1985. Then the "shock jocks" appeared. One interviewed prostitutes mislabeled as 'porn stars.' I remember turning on the radio one night and two guys were talking about a sexual encounter. Then "rap" (not) music focusing on purely selfish, violent and disrespect for women themes appeared. Put porn and general perversion on the internet and on and on. Lots of illegal drugs out there. Lots of missing fathers. Some men who get women pregnant believe they can just walk away. A lot of bad behavior online in general. The family is the basic building block of all societies. Damage that and all kinds of negative results occur. relatd

Off to dinner with friends. Armed, of course, with a spare magazine. Life in America. First rule of gunfighting: Bring a gun. Sad, but true. AnimatedDust

Columbine was the seminal wakeup call, but is largely incorrectly labeled. The SRO engaged the shooters within minutes of their arrival on scene, and entry teams were inside very quickly. They offed themselves so quickly because of the imminent police pressure. I have been debriefed by the SWAT commander who led the entry. That the police waited outside forever is complete fiction. AnimatedDust

AD, the relevant point is where I am from, Jamaica, where among other things I lived through much of the 4th gen civil war 1976 - 80. To get an idea, look up Gold Street Massacre; reports at the time indicated someone even brought an old Vickers in a wheel barrow to that one. On top of the ex VN M16's. Then there was the night I watched JDF helicopters pulling back from above August Town as full auto fire was turned on them again and again by Cuban trained Brigadistas; the night Roy McGann was assassinated. And more, more than I want to remember. KF kairosfocus

AD, yes and you had years to target harden and prepare tactics for mass killer response since say 1999 at Columbine as a first reference. The use of a sawed down phone pole to breach doors goes to 1920's cases. And more. KF kairosfocus

JH @275: That's not debated. They don't. Why would I debate the obvious? We have a mentally illness, lack of God, me first and f*ck you culture that worships violence. (John Wick anyone?) Mainly in the last 40 years or so. We reap what we sow. Where, might I ask, do you reside? AnimatedDust

JH, very different circumstances and you may be surprised to learn of attacks in other places, often with knives etc. (Way back, I noted on a case in a rural village in Jamaica in 1959, a machete attack by someone who snapped.) The most relevant case is Israel, which has had to deal with firearms and with suicide bombing attacks; think of the Airport attack by terrorists acting for the PLO etc in was it 1974 and of course the 1972 Munich Olympics attack, then continue down to today. I suggest a useful discussion would be, what is driving attackers to go postal. But that needs to be parallel-tracked with target hardening. It seems to be emerging that this was in fact a classical soft target. The assumption that someone wants to take hostages and make a big splash is failing, we are dealing with blood lust on whatever motive. In this situation the best time to stop things is before they start fully. That translates to target hardening. KF kairosfocus

They had six -days-to prepare for that entry, and that wasn't an active shooter. It was a terrorist hostage taking. Extensive negotiations. Explosive breaching charges for entry and planned, well-rehearsed entries. Total apples and oranges. AnimatedDust

AD: JH @270. Nice condescension.

Oh. You noticed? But I also noticed that you didn’t respond to the fact that other countries don’t see the need to turn schools into fortresses. Shouldn’t the goal be to not have to turn schools into fortresses. JHolo

AD, I hear you though I suggest the relevant tactics are commando tactics, try SAS Iran Embassy KF kairosfocus

JH @270. Nice condescension. It’s actually the correct interpretation of the amendment, your external preferences, notwithstanding. AnimatedDust

F/N: Another account: https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2022/05/26/shock-dps-reveals-uvalde-shooter-entered-thru-unlocked-door-no-school-police-officer/ >>The Texas Department of Public Safety (DPS) revealed Thursday that the gunman who murdered 19 children and two teachers in Uvalde on Tuesday walked into the school through an unlocked door, and did not encounter any school police. Previously, the media had been informed that the 18-year-old who carried out a mass shooting at the Robb Elementary School had been confronted by an armed school resource officer outside school, and had exchanged gunfire with him. On Thursday, DPS Regional Director Victor Escalon told reporters that at 11:28 a.m. on Tuesday, after the gunman crashed a pickup truck near the school, he began his attack. The gunman climbed a four-foot-high chain link fence around the school, and fired at the school as he approached. He also fired at two eyewitnesses at a funeral home nearby. By 11:40 a.m., he had approached the west side of the school. He “was not confronted by anybody” outside the school, armed or otherwise. Escalon added that there was no school resource officer on campus, and that the first report came to police at 11:30 a.m. Though said it was still uncertain, it appeared that the shooter had entered the building through an unlocked door. He said that further investigation could reveal that the door was unlocked, but that at the moment it appeared to have been unlocked. Escalon added that local police responded sixteen minutes after the crash, at 11:44 a.m., and entered the building, but retreated after an exchange of gunfire in which some officers were apparently wounded. Law enforcement then waited outside the building for an hour. There were apparently some negotiations with the gunman, who had barricaded himself inside a fourth-grade classroom. There were few gunshots during that hour; Fox News reported that most of the killing happened early, though it was not apparent whether some of the victims who were wounded in the first minutes of the rampage could still have been saved. The shooter was killed in an exchange of gunfire with a Border Patrol tactical officer who later rushed into the building.>> So, apparently he had an easy entry, the doors were not instantly locked on sound of shooting, it was cordon off and negotiate. KF kairosfocus

AD at 269, Since the internet is a mix of news from credible sources, and non-credible nonsense posted by speculators, I have a suggestion. An official location online just for this incident run by identified persons for family, and the curious, to get actual answers, not the junk that I've seen online. "More than a year..." Well, I hope some here read that and realize that their adrenaline fueled, instant gratification romps on the internet means sometimes they will have to wait. relatd

AD: JH, Target hardening is a term used to describe a necessity based on the reality of life in the States today.

But why? It is not required in Canada, Australia, New Zealand, most of Europe, Scandinavia, Japan, and many other countries. What is the difference? Could it possibly be the gun culture that the rest of the world doesn’t understand? Is the US willing to continue to support a misinterpretation of the 2nd amendment at the expense of its children? JHolo

Relatd @265: It will happen. It will be more than a year before there is a complete official report. The school will be closed that entire time, and a likely possibility that it will be razed afterward. Information flows too quickly these days. There is no way people will avoid speculating. Entire world is speculating about this at the moment. AnimatedDust

KF, with respect, keep doing the philosophy of science. Better to leave your imagined SWAT tactics to armed professionals. AnimatedDust

AD, a reasonably sized battering ram would work, say 100+ lbs of phone pole charged or swung at the door by a team. Flash bangs or the like as soon as it breached. Not the dinky toy one officer unit. officers surging in behind and going hi-lo, left-right. KF kairosfocus

Totally possible that there would be classrooms without windows. The high school my kids went to had a lower floor with 25 classrooms and zero windows. Even with a battering ram, a solid wood door that opens out with a steel frame is not going to be easy to defeat. Especially if he is cranking rounds at it from inside. AnimatedDust

AD at 263, Well, until the investigation is complete, I hope others here will avoid speculating. I'm sure families and relatives want answers with all of the details surrounding the shooter's actions once he arrived on the scene. relatd

AD, From the looks of it Ross Elementary is small, and the fence is like next to it almost. I can't believe a classroom there wouldn't have windows. Maybe more info will come out. Andrew asauber

Not that I am aware of, but his past is starting to come out. Reportedly bullied for a childhood stutter, and a crap home life. Very dark and angry. The typical stuff. AnimatedDust

AD at 257, Has an official motive been assigned? relatd

JH, yes, of civilisational failure as life is devalued and nihilism grows apace. In too many cases with Govt backing. Mind you, many, many US communities -- often quite heavily armed -- have extremely low rates of violent crime. We are also seeing signs of policing failure and of failure of social/family support services. Israel showed us that target hardening works, once one is willing to acknowledge the unpleasant reality of nihilistic mass attacks. KF kairosfocus

AS at 258: most likely a solid wood door that opens out. Also likely the classroom was not windowed. AnimatedDust

JH, Target hardening is a term used to describe a necessity based on the reality of life in the States today. AnimatedDust

"they needed a key to get into the room" Couldn't break in the door or windows? Andrew asauber

Presuming the guns were the same ones he posted on social media, they were 16 inch barreled AR-15s with collapsible stocks. The magazines were presumably 30 rounders. The two magazines in the two pictured guns were 30s. He took one into the school and left the other one in his crashed truck. AnimatedDust

PS, on the scenario outlined, he could have used an old fashioned revolver to do this. The response was that bad. Yesterday I was thinking cops were there at start and backup took a few minutes with our hero charging in 3 - 5 minutes; even that fast there should have been 2 or more going in [maybe behind flash bangs], to cause split attention for a crucial few seconds. Instead, the cordon and wait game gave him an hour or thereabouts. KF kairosfocus

KF: Target hardening is clearly indicated.

The need to “target hardening” is an admission of failure. As are gated communities. JHolo

The gunman behind the mass shooting at an elementary school here lingered outside the building for 12 minutes firing shots before walking into the school and barricading in a classroom where he killed 19 children and two teachers, authorities said in a news conference Thursday laying out a new timeline of events.

JHolo

Okie, Daily Mail clips, just their usual unique bullet points head and leads: 1: >>Texas cops reveal there was NO armed guard on campus when gunman walked through unlocked door with his AR-15: First officers on scene retreated when he opened fire on them then waited an HOUR for SWAT Salvador Ramos arrived at Robb Elementary School at 11.40am on Tuesday morning after crashing his truck Contrary to earlier reports, there was no school police resource officer there when he arrived He walked 'unobstructed' into the school then police arrived four minutes later He shot at them so they retreated - leaving him alone in the classroom with the children and teachers he killed It took an hour for SWAT teams to arrive, break into the room and finally kill him while other kids hid There is growing anger over the police response and the fact that some parents were held back from entering They wanted to storm the school themselves after showing up to find 150 cops 'standing around' outside By JENNIFER SMITH, CHIEF REPORTER FOR DAILYMAIL.COM PUBLISHED: 20:49 BST, 26 May 2022 | UPDATED: 21:28 BST, 26 May 2022>> 2: >>Texas officials launch investigation into Uvalde police response to school shooting: Conflicting statements over gunfight with the shooter and videos show parents being held down by cops outside while kids were trapped with the gunman Salvador Ramos arrived at Robb Elementary School at 11.30am on Tuesday morning after crashing his truck A school resource officer at the scene failed to stop him from making his way inside and barricading himself He locked himself in a fourth grade classroom where he shot dead 19 kids and two of their teachers It took police at least hour to breach the classroom to shoot him - and it's now claimed they needed a key to get into the room As they struggled to get him inside, desperate parents were held back from the school by cops with tasers In new video, police are shown restraining one frantic man who asked them why they weren't in the school 'We're taking care of it!' yelled one officer who was holding parents back from the scene One law enforcement official anonymously revealed cops took so long to get into the classroom because they needed a key It was only when a staff member found one for them that they got inside, according to NPR By JENNIFER SMITH, CHIEF REPORTER and HARRIET ALEXANDER FOR DAILYMAIL.COM PUBLISHED: 13:40 BST, 26 May 2022 | UPDATED: 20:16 BST, 26 May 2022>> 3: >>PICTURED: Grisly head wound and bullet-ridden baseball cap worn by hero Border Patrol agent, who stormed Texas school and killed gunman, show just how close he came to being killed himself New photo shows the bullet-ridden baseball cap worn by the brave Border Patrol agent who killed the 18-year-old gunman A picture of the agent's head, showing stitches where he was grazed by a bullet, was also released The unidentified agent is reportedly from the Border Patrol's elite tactical unit, known as BORTAC By GINA MARTINEZ FOR DAILYMAIL.COM PUBLISHED: 16:09 BST, 26 May 2022 | UPDATED: 17:50 BST, 26 May 2022>> Please note, 150 cops standing around while a gunman has about an hour that he used to kill people. Waiting for a key when in an hour an improvised battering ram could have been used. The cordon off and negotiate doctrine seems implicit in this. Target hardening is clearly indicated. Again, see 30 above. KF kairosfocus

AD, Can you verify what weapons were used and what types of magazines? Excerpt from today's The Street: "On Tuesday an 18-year-old man armed with two weapons and several high-capacity magazines barricaded himself in a classroom at the Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas where he shot and killed 19 students and two adults. Border police eventually entered and killed the suspect." relatd

Not only that, but after he crashed his truck he shot at two people at a distance and missed them. He then climbed the fence and started shooting before walking into the building. This according to the chief at 1 PM. AnimatedDust

AD, Thanks. I'm just a little dismayed that he basically just walked in after climbing a fence. Andrew asauber

F/N: I found some comments worth following up, https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2022/05/hero-injured-off-duty-border-patrol-agent-shot-killed-mass-murderer-salvador-ramos-video/#comment-5868521711

James Green TheOldOne • 14 hours ago • edited New Facts are Changing the Narrative...Now Records show it took LE 90 minutes from 1st 911 call until Entry was made. A Armed School Resource Officer confronted Ramos, but didn't exchange fire or stop him from entering. Moment frantic parents urge COPS to STORM Texas school after massacre as dad of victim said he considered CHARGING in himself & it's revealed CBP agents had to Find & use a KEY to enter after they were UNABLE to break down door • Footage has emerged showing the panic-stricken parents of the Texas schoolchildren screaming at law enforcement to enter the school. • Questions are being asked as to why it took 90 MINUTES (1.5 hrs) between the first 911 call & the gunman being shot dead. • It also emerged on Wednesday night that the AUTHORITIES had to find a KEY to get inside the room where the gunman was barricaded with the children. • Jacinto Cazares's daughter Jacklyn was among the 19 children & 2 teachers at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde shot dead Tuesday by Salvador Ramos, 18. • Cazares wants answers as to why the first 911 call came at 11:32 am & yet Ramos was not shot dead until 1 pm. • One man who lives opposite the school said that a WOMAN was YELLING at the police: 'GO IN THERE!' - but they did not. • The school had ARMED SECURITY, yet Ramos was still able to get in: multiple officers were shot by Ramos, who was wearing a body armor plate Carrier WITHOUT PLATES. • The city of Uvalde is 80 miles west of San Antonio & the same distance from the border with Mexico: Border Agents were among those who responded. • Texas's Director of the Department of Public Safety said: 'Obviously, this is situation we FAILED in the sense that we didn't prevent this mass attack'. • New footage shows the chaotic crowd outside the school, as heavily-armed sheriffs & law enforcement stand guard & hold them back - in One case, seemingly WRESTLING a PANIC STRICKEN WOMAN to the GROUND & PINNING her DOWN. • 'WHAT ARE YOU DOING? Get inside the building!' One person can be heard screaming. • Steve McCraw, Director of the Texas Department of Public Safety (DPS), said on Wednesday that a "BRAVE" School Resource Officer 'APPROACHED HIM & "ENGAGED HIM" - but added that "GUNFIRE WAS NOT EXCHANGED." • He did Not Explain Why. • Lt. Chris Olivarez, TX DPS's Spokesperson said that the Agent was injured in his leg."They are trying to figure out if he was shot in the leg or hit by shrapnel." • His Grandfather, Ronaldo Reyes, 72, said the teenager lived in a front room & slept on a mattress on the floor & had no idea his grandson purchased 2 AR-15s nor that he kept them in the house. • Ronaldo Reyes, a convicted felon, is Not Allowed to have Guns inside his home, he said & if he knew Ramos was keeping weapons there he said he would have turned in his grandson. • Romos's Grandmother was attempting to Evict daughter Adriana Reyes & her Boyfriend from the Hood St Trailer due to Drug Addiction & other problems. • His mother, Adriana Reyes, 39, said on Wednesday her son 'Wasn't a Violent Person' & was "SURPRISED" he opened fire, but admitted her son was someone who "kept to himself & didn't have many friends". • Ramos is the son of Reyes & Salvador Ramos, 42 - both of whom have a Criminal History. Ramos Sr since 2000. • Ramos' neighbor Ruben Flores, 41, said the shooter & his mother would often have screaming matches, with police being called to the home on multiple occasions. • Ramos's Mother's Boyfriend, Manuel Alvarez 62, said Ramos often stayed in his room on Hood Street, where he would repeatedly hit a punching bag by himself.

I am not vouching for this, there is need for clarified and confirmed facts on what sounds like another failure of existing systems case. KF kairosfocus

Relatd: WHO are you going to contact to make sure this doesn’t happen again? The problem in the UK is much, much, much less. And I support all efforts here to eliminate the problem entirely. What are you going to do in America? And what’s the big deal with Europe? Or do you want posts about the various bombings that have occurred there? Is anyone telling people in some European countries: You should stop the bombings? I am very, very aware of the bombing in Europe; they all get very widely reported and analysed. And, guess what, the government introduces new legislation to try and prevent further incidents. And money is spent on policing and investigations. Every time some act of terrorism occurs the government and the policing and the laws get exhaustively checked and considered. After the killings at Dunblane laws were changed because people were so appalled because of what happened. Something happened because, clearly, something needed to change. What needs to change in America? Or, as usual, based on past experience, will nothing happen? JVL

JVL I am thinking about and dealing with the truth of 19 primary school children and 2 teachers lying dead

:lol: A darwinist playing Jesus and after 5 minutes on other topic will talk about "survival of the fittest" and the truth of evolution. Lieutenant Commander Data

Andrew according to the chief, there were no officers there prior to entry. They entered within four minutes of his entry and took fire immediately. Two were wounded and they pulled back and held and that seems to be the beginning of the standoff. AnimatedDust

AD at 243, Thanks. relatd

AD, I read he "evaded" the officers who were there who could've prevented entry. I think that needs to be explained. Andrew asauber

Sorry, special weapons and tactics and school resource officer. AnimatedDust

Relatd, I already pointed to the clear signs of a disaffected public. A gun confiscation push would only trigger a massive upheaval, given evidence of decades of lawless ruthless officialdom playing lawfare games and with 63 million lives on their hands. The emerging evidence points to policing failure and the need for target hardening. I am wondering if there is more, along lines of social/psychological services failure and perhaps ritalin or the like. KF kairosfocus

AD at 234, Please avoid the use of acronyms. Most people don't know them. relatd

I caught the 1 PM briefing from the Texas DPS chief. At this time the rear door was unlocked and he started firing before he went into the structure. AnimatedDust

The SRO was nowhere to be found. Police allegedly engaged him before he entered an unlocked door. They didn't follow him in. People wanted to storm the school. Clearly, more training is required. Clint Eastwood had a word for what happened. Clusterf%^$ ET

KF, I had no idea you were such a gun nut. AnimatedDust

AD, he climbed a fence toting an AR 15 and immediate alarms and locked doors did not happen? Just what engagement happened between when he climbed the fence and entered the building? Were there at least two security present to go for him right away? Maybe it is time to learn from the Israelis and how they handled suicide bombing campaigns. KF kairosfocus

From the Wall Street investment site, The Street: Excerpt: "Gun owners - and there are an estimated 80 million of them - see their firearms as a way to defend their own freedoms and property. Banning or restricting guns is therefore seen as a violation of their rights. "In 2012 a gunman killed 20 children and six adults in Sandy Hook primary school. Afterwards there was broader support for gun control, but gun reform never materialized." I am praying for this to change. relatd

JVL, I have said enough on your resort to insults. The fact is, more than enough officers were on the scene quite early. The doors were obviously reinforced but because they were not used early to block the attacker from entering the building and classrooms, they were used later to block police responders, and we see remarks on waiting for a key. A standard, low tech procedure I know of as since the middle ages, is use a ram. In policing, used for decades; IIRC, 1920's with the mafia. Try, a 5 - 6 ft length of old telephone pole with handles for say four officers. Cost, maybe US$ 100. Run at the door and hit, it will normally break it open with a loud disorienting bang; if necessary, flash bangs and smoke or tear gas. Follow through with a wedge of officers, maybe even the ones who just breached the door. Beforehand, do a drone or fibre optic cable look. Something like that. The form a perimeter, bring up a negotiator doctrine or the like failed here. The doors as barriers failed here. The guards at the gates failed here. Something was very wrong here. It sounds to me that some target hardening is in order. KF kairosfocus

I am very late to this dance. I might be able to help some with the police side of things. I am in my 34th year, a chief at the state level, and all of my cops are armed with AR-15s, as am I. It rides between my front seats in my unit, next to my bean bag shotgun. I was SWAT for 21 years and am an instructor on several platforms, including submachine guns and patrol rifles. If anyone has any questions, shoot. (pun intended.) I am not that well briefed on Uvalde. He did climb a fence. He did not engage with an SRO prior to entry. AnimatedDust

131,00 schools in the USA $54 BILLION dollar Ukrainian aid bill Could be $412,000 to every school for security upgrades Let THAT sink in. If the government wanted to stop this crap, they could. ET

ET: And Europe was the cause of TWO World Wars. Millions upon millions of people were needlessly killed. Children included. Europeans are the last people who get to tell the USA how to do things. Europe has changed. Europe is now cooperating and working together. It's an amazing thing: after millennia of conflict western Europe is no longer trying to kill their neighbours. I'm very glad and happy to be able to witness an astounding change in behaviour that had been going on for centuries. It gives me hope for humanity. JVL

Relatd: There’s no money to deal with this problem? How do you know that? Have you contacted the Office of Management and Budget? The White House? Homeland Security? Do you have any facts about how much money is available? Have you called Elon Musk? He’s got 200 billion dollars laying around. Well, it keeps happening. What does that tell you? Not enough money being spent? People not doing their jobs? What are you going to do to make sure things are different from now on? What are you going to do to make sure no more parents have to bury their primary school child because someone was able to buy an assault weapon and take it to a local primary school and get into a classroom and kill 21 people? What are you going to do? It's your country, what are you going to do? JVL

JVL at 222, "Most people don’t seem to be determined to do whatever it takes to make sure this kind of thing will ever happen again. My apologies; I thought we all agreed on that." WHO are you going to contact to make sure this doesn't happen again? "It’s a tradition in America now, widely recognised around Europe." Letting kids get killed has become a "tradition' in America. Walk up to any member of law enforcement and say that. And what's the big deal with Europe? Or do you want posts about the various bombings that have occurred there? Is anyone telling people in some European countries: You should stop the bombings? relatd

ET: Automatic weapons were not used in any school shootings. And we already pay for the security. Communities are already doing something. This appears to be a case of the security process not being followed. Guess we're going to have to spend even more money to make sure the people we are already paying money to do something are actually doing what they are being paid to do. I hope you're good with that. JVL

"It appears that you are a shill." JVL is a known Troll. Andrew asauber

Relatd: It appears that you are a shill. A purveyor of certain details that you can only guess. Stop it. I'm really, really sorry you cannot put yourself into the situation which you know must have happened. 22 bodies (counting the gunman), that con't be pleasant. There must be lots of blood and viscera, clearly. We all know how crime scenes are processed thanks to all the TV shows we've all watched, we know how every body is photographed and marked, eventually taken back to be 'processed' which means a lot more photographs and a thorough autopsy. I don't know why you are trying to pretend this is not happening: the photographs, the samples being taken, the autopsies, the round retrievals, the shell casing retrieval's, the interviews with the survivors and, eventually, someone mopping up all the blood. But, I guess if you're good just ignoring the truth . . . JVL

Relatd:

Do you think I’m an idiot?

I don't give you any thought at all. ET

And Europe was the cause of TWO World Wars. Millions upon millions of people were needlessly killed. Children included. Europeans are the last people who get to tell the USA how to do things. ET

JVL at 219, There's no money to deal with this problem? How do you know that? Have you contacted the Office of Management and Budget? The White House? Homeland Security? Do you have any facts about how much money is available? Have you called Elon Musk? He's got 200 billion dollars laying around. relatd

Automatic weapons were not used in any school shootings. And we already pay for the security. Communities are already doing something. This appears to be a case of the security process not being followed. ET

Relatd: Turn off the tape recorder. OK? You are repeating yourself. Talk to real people in law enforcement, right now. Talk to Homeland Security, right now. OK? I think you're right: I should quit because, apparently, on this forum, most people aren't as appalled and horrified as I am. Most people don't seem to be determined to do whatever it takes to make sure this kind of thing will ever happen again. My apologies; I thought we all agreed on that. You actually know what kinds of shirts the kids were wearing? Unless you were there, stop lying. I guess I spend more time with primary school children than you do. Perhaps you should accept a bit of poetic license because the point being made is valid instead of nit picking without having anything else substantial to add. I'll just leave it up to you to, once again as before, DO NOTHING to stop this kind of thing happening again. It's a tradition in America now, widely recognised around Europe. JVL

JVL at 217, It appears that you are a shill. A purveyor of certain details that you can only guess. Stop it. Or you can ask local law enforcement for the crime scene photos. And tell them what they should do. relatd

JVL at 213, "weapon porn"? What kind of sick nonsense is that? Or are you shilling for someone else? relatd

Kairosfocus: at this point, you are playing red herring games. There is enough on the table to identify a major policing failure. One that ran for 40 minutes until an off duty Border Patrol agent — yes a demonised agency, we recall that recent media circus — got in and stopped the gunman. The target hardening issue is squarely on the table There is no way, unless you want to pay for a lot more police officers, that you are going to substantially improve the response on average in situations like this. Are you saying that you are willing to pay a lot more taxes for a lot more police officers to not only improve the response time but also to 'harden' targets like primary schools? How much money do you want to spend when imposing COVID restrictions was roundly condemned by those who said it would ruin the economy? you are taking to personal insult. That speaks, especially when you are unresponsive to substantial facts. You are losing your focus. You think talking about guns and tactics and entry points and 'hardening' targets is the way to deal with dead children and their parents. You favour meeting fire with fire, an eye for an eye, guns meet guns. When are you going to beat your swords into plowshares? (I think I've got the quote wrong, I would like to be corrected on that.) JVL

JVL at 208, Turn off the tape recorder. OK? You are repeating yourself. Talk to real people in law enforcement, right now. Talk to Homeland Security, right now. OK? You actually know what kinds of shirts the kids were wearing? Unless you were there, stop lying. relatd

Kairosfocus: I suggest you pause and note substantial evidence on the table I am thinking about and dealing with the truth of 19 primary school children and 2 teachers lying dead in a classroom because some jerk was able to buy powerful weapons which he, apparently, did not need to justify his use of. You can sit there and talk about calibers and entry points and security issues and other tactical questions but if you are not focusing on the corpses of the children then let me suggest Kairosfocus that your focus is misdirected. Perhaps you'd like to help process that crime scene? Perhaps you'd like to photograph the bodies and the blood spatter. Perhaps you'd like to photograph and collect the round casings? Perhaps you like to find the rounds buried in the walls and desks and floor? Perhaps, after all the bodies and evidence has been removed you'd like to go in with a mop and clean up all the blood and brains and viscera? Perhaps, since you say you care about human life, you should be focusing on that? JVL

JVL, you are taking to personal insult. That speaks, especially when you are unresponsive to substantial facts. KF kairosfocus

PS, more from officialdom,

Despite the criticism, McCraw defended the response Wednesday. “The bottom line is law enforcement was there,” he said defensively. “They did engage immediately. They did contain (Ramos) in the classroom.”

How many survived that 40 minutes in that classroom? What were the survived, killed, wounded percentages? Policing failure KF kairosfocus

JVL, at this point, you are playing red herring games. There is enough on the table to identify a major policing failure. One that ran for 40 minutes until an off duty Border Patrol agent -- yes a demonised agency, we recall that recent media circus -- got in and stopped the gunman. The target hardening issue is squarely on the table. KF kairosfocus

Kairosfocus: since you choose to turn your head away from a govt, for 49 years, enabling the slaughter of 25,000 of our living posterity in the womb, under colour of law, rights and freedom, thus exposing its nihilism and danger . . . (See how it cuts both ways? Ask why it has been so suppressed to show what especially later in pregnancy abortions attack and the result, e.g. a partial birth abortion?) Abortion is a divisive issue and something else America has to deal with mostly because there is a lot of disagreement about it. BUT NOT ONE disagrees that primary school children being shot to death in their classroom is acceptable. Since we agree on that why not try and solve that. I'm just going to ignore your weapon porn wherein you spend too much time thinking about the weapons used and not enough about the dead and bleeding bodies of young children. JVL

F/N, More from NYP:

Another clip caught even more angry parents confronting officers standing around outside, with the livestreamer saying that it had “already been about an hour and they still can’t get the kids all out.” “That’s [] crazy, bro — they’re standing all outside [and] there’s [] kids in there still, man,” he said. One mom yelled at an officer, “You’re scared of getting shot? I’ll go in without a vest — I will!” One of the disturbing clips, seen nearly 2 million times by Thursday, shows several parents trying to get past police lines. One of the disturbing clips, seen nearly 2 million times by Thursday, shows several parents trying to get past police lines. As an officer tells them to stand back, one mom wails, “You don’t understand!” Another shouts, “Are your kids in there? No!” The person filming the livestream told one officer, “Half of these [] parents here, dude, they wanna go in there — without vests, without guns — to get their [] kids.” Javier Cazares — whose daughter, Jacklyn Cazares, was one of the 19 kids shot dead in her fourth-grade classroom — was one of the desperate parents at the scene. He blasted cops as “unprepared.” He recalled hearing gunfire and suggesting to others at the scene, “Let’s just rush in because the cops aren’t doing anything like they are supposed to.” He also told the Washington Post, “We didn’t care about us. We wanted to storm the building. We were saying, ‘Let’s go’ because that is how worried we were, and we wanted to get our babies out.” One of the first responders, firefighter Ernest “Chip” King, said some of those parents actually made it past the cordons and “were getting in” to the school. He told The Post there were fathers “breaking out windows, pulling their kids out of windows. It was a terrible, tragic scene.” Juan Carranza, 24, who saw the whole thing unfold from his house across the street from Robb Elementary, also recalled hearing women screaming at cops, “Go in there! Go in there!” He was outraged that they did not get the shooter sooner. “There were more of them. There was just one of him,” he said. The first officer had confronted Ramos — who was carrying an AR-style rifle — after he crashed his grandmother’s truck outside the school and then ran toward the building around 11:30 a.m. Tuesday. Texas Gov. Greg Abbott also insisted the school shooting — the deadliest since 20 kids and six adults were killed in Sandy Hook in 2012 — “could have been worse” without the officers’ response.Texas Gov. Greg Abbott also insisted the school shooting — the deadliest since 20 kids and six adults were killed in Sandy Hook in 2012 — “could have been worse” without the officers’ response. Gunfire was not exchanged and Ramos was able to get into the school. The officer “followed him right in immediately,” which is “when rounds were exchanged,” Texas Department of Public Safety Director Steve McCraw said Wednesday. The deranged gunman ran down a hallway to two adjoining classrooms and barricaded himself in, the official revealed. “And that’s where the carnage began,” McCraw said, with the 19 kids and two teachers who were shot dead all being in the same room.

This is a clear policing failure, just from media pickup. We need to hear and see transcripts for police communication. See 30 above. KF kairosfocus

ET: Hey, dick, what automatic weapons were used in Texas? You tell me. I doubt the killer used a revolver. The school in Texas was allegedly protected. Someone there dropped the ball Clearly something went wrong. Crazy people have hijacked school busses. Using cars or trucks they can easily plow through a crowd of kids. Stuff like that has already been done. Can you imagine what a couple of Malatov cocktails could do to a crowd of people? One loser drove his truck into motorcyclists. They don’t need guns. They don't. But they prefer guns. Clearly. And stop pretending that you care about kids when you allow for their mass slaughter while they are at their most vulnerable. Pathetic. I don't allow that; the US Supreme Court (has) allowed that. And most of the American public allows that. But NO ONE thinks that leaving 19 primary school children bleeding out and dead in a school classroom is acceptable. NO ONE. So, again, a very, very, very small % of creeps that can be dealt with by competent security. Infringe on the creeps and leave the law-abiding citizens alone. So, you are willing to pay for that? How much of a tax increase would that entail? I'm not disagreeing with your solution; I'm just asking if you're willing to pay for it. JVL

JVL, I suggest you pause and note substantial evidence on the table. KF kairosfocus

PS, I notice from NYP:

"Another clip caught even more angry parents confronting officers standing around outside." "A law enforcement official familiar with the investigation told the Associated Press that the Border Patrol agents had trouble breaching the classroom door."

These are evident crime scene facts. The first indicates the officers outside were closing a perimeter and did not think themselves in immediate danger. When seconds mark life/death, they were holding a perimeter. Next, clearly the door to the class room was reinforced, it was not shut in time to give the shooter trouble breaking in. Some things failed here. KF kairosfocus

Relatd: Please get a grip. Blood on the floors and walls? Were you there? Have you seen the crime scene photos? Were you among the investigators? What do you think the scene looks like? I suspect, at this point, that they are only in the preliminary stages of investigation. Everything will have to be photographed. Every body will be recorded in complete detail; where the bullet entered, where it exited, where the body fell, the distances will be measured and photographed. Back in the lab the bodies will be photographed again and again and again as the clothing is removed; they will be turned over to show entry and exit wounds. Eventually, they will be cut open to show the massive internal damage and a cause of death will be determined. You've all seen it on various TV shows but this time it's real. Picture that. You know what? He rarely spoke about what he saw. The same with the other vets. What is your point exactly? We shouldn't talk about the reality of young children being gunned down in their classroom? Is the trauma and truth too painful to deal with? Does that mean you're not going to at least try and do something to stop it from happening again? If you can't deal with a classroom filled with dead, bleeding bodies of primary school children lying as they fell, wearing their Iron Man or Frozen or Spider Man t-shirts and their shoes that flash when they walk and their fancy hair bands and their fit-bits then I don't think you should be even talking about this. That is what happened. Someone needs to deal with it. if it's not you then step aside and let some adults have a go. JVL

F/N: This may be authentic: https://twitter.com/MCatronDHS/status/1529271339856629763?s=20&t=PqbNosaonb4TatMWdG2jZA

Marsha (Catron) Espinosa @MCatronDHS U.S. Border Patrol Agents responded to a law enforcement request for assistance re an active shooter situation inside Robb Elementary School in Uvalde. Upon entering the building, Agents & other law enforcement officers faced gun fire from the subject, who was barricaded inside. 9:21 PM · May 24, 2022·Twitter Web App 197 Retweets 52 Quote Tweets 562 Likes Marsha (Catron) Espinosa @MCatronDHS · May 24 Replying to @MCatronDHS Risking their own lives, these Border Patrol Agents and other officers put themselves between the shooter and children on the scene to draw the shooter’s attention away from potential victims and save lives.

Similarly: https://nypost.com/2022/05/25/elite-border-patrol-agent-killed-texas-school-shooter-salvador-ramos-reports/

An off-duty Customs and Border Protection agent from an elite tactical unit is the hero who shot and killed the Robb Elementary School gunman before he could continue his massacre, reports said Wednesday. The agent, a member of CBP’s Border Patrol Tactical Unit (BORTAC), rushed into the school while the shooter was still active and began exchanging rounds with the gunman, who was barricaded inside a fourth-grade classroom, NBC and Fox reported. The officer was injured during the shooting but he managed to “eliminate the threat” and kill the shooter before he could commit more carnage, law enforcement sources told NBC. The agent, part of CBP’s Del Rio sector, which covers Uvalde, was trained in a manner similar to US special forces. BORTAC agents are taught to handle terror threats abroad and other chaos, such as riots at ICE detention facilities, NBC reported. Marsha Espinosa, the Department of Homeland Security’s assistant secretary of public affairs, confirmed on Twitter late Tuesday that at least one Border Patrol agent was wounded by the shooter.

Disturbing, consistent with reports of a 40 minute delay before going in: https://nypost.com/2022/05/26/videos-show-parents-begging-cops-to-stop-texas-school-shooting/

Harrowing videos captured the heartbreaking wails of parents begging cops to “Go protect the kids!” during the Texas school shooting — with some suggesting they “just rush” the school themselves. The livestreamed footage captured the unbearable anguish as parents rushed to Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, where deranged gunman Salvador Ramos, 18, was inside for up to an hour as he killed 19 kids and two teachers. “You know that they are kids right?” one angry man yelled at officers in one clip obtained by the Washington Post. “They’re little kids, they don’t know how to defend themselves… 6-year-old kids in there, they don’t know how to defend themselves from a shooter!” “We’re parents! Take him the [] out!” begged a mother to an officer, after the cop shoved a frustrated parent and tells the gathered crowd to back up. Earlier in the same video, a frustrated dad declares “all the parents are gonna go in,” while the same woman yells “[] that, like our kids are there” as cops tell them to take cover.

Kindly, refer to 30 above. We now have some substantial reports that allow looking at substance. Earlier it was said he shot his way in, why weren't doors immediately locked? Why so long a delay before forming a team to go in? If there had been proper training and organisation of external guards and staff within, would things have been different? KF kairosfocus

"Something here is not adding up." KF, I agree, and official spokespeople seem evasive. But what else is new? Andrew asauber

AS, this sounds like Parkland 2. Save, he seems to have shot his way in, which raises -- why weren't the same doors locked instantly on gunfire outside, blocking him. There are ways to breach doors quickly. Something here is not adding up. KF kairosfocus

SA, https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/246

10 U.S. Code § 246 - Militia: composition and classes U.S. Code Notes prev | next (a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard. (b) The classes of the militia are— (1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and (2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia. (Aug. 10, 1956, ch. 1041, 70A Stat. 14, §?311; Pub. L. 85–861, §?1(7), Sept. 2, 1958, 72 Stat. 1439; Pub. L. 103–160, div. A, title V, §?524(a), Nov. 30, 1993, 107 Stat. 1656; renumbered §?246, Pub. L. 114–328, div. A, title XII, §?1241(a)(2), Dec. 23, 2016, 130 Stat. 2497.)

That was the context for my points in 30 above. This is also a statement of liability for conscription as necessary. In Russia in 1986, men were apparently pulled off the street and sent in to fight the reactor. More can be said. I just add, navies cost a lot, take long to build and require decades of tradition to build performance. Formerly, guardian of the seas was the Royal Navy. After WW2, Britain basically retired. The guardian of global trade and prosperity is now USN. Think about the matches being played with by those fomenting polarisation and chaos in the USA, starting with marxist ideologies, culture form. And more. KF kairosfocus

"Not only does the Uvalde City School District have its own police department— staffed with a chief, five officers, and a security guard—but additional law enforcement called to the scene (including Border Patrol Agents, who ultimately killed Ramos) are shown to have stood idle in the parking lot outside of school as Ramos gunned down 19 children and two teachers in a barricaded classroom." "Even more disturbingly, according to an anonymous law enforcement official, Border Patrol agents couldn’t immediately breach the classroom door. Ultimately, a staff member had to open the room with a key—meaning an inordinate amount of time passed as the Ramos barricaded himself in the fourth-grade classroom." https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/new-videos-show-police-did-absolutely-nothing-to-stop-the-uvalde-shooter/ar-AAXLddZ?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=94657345fddf4d92ab10b7c2fbeddf6c Andrew asauber

JVL, since you choose to turn your head away from a govt, for 49 years, enabling the slaughter of 25,000 of our living posterity in the womb, under colour of law, rights and freedom, thus exposing its nihilism and danger . . . (See how it cuts both ways? Ask why it has been so suppressed to show what especially later in pregnancy abortions attack and the result, e.g. a partial birth abortion?) KF PS, It seems some basics. - An AR 15, absent significant and highly illegal mods, is semi-automatic, not automatic. - Automatic, as long as trigger is depressed and there is ammunition it will continue to fire, typically 6 - 10 rounds per second. - Semi-automatic, one trigger pull, one round discharged. - The point on contrast between widespread and high gun ownership and areas with high crimes is significant, there is a views and values issue not a simple guns issue. - don't overlook the fight against securing the border just 60 miles away, across which full auto weapons see significant use. - The Semi auto AK 47 under appropriate circumstances is an effective defensive weapon; likewise, a useful hunting implement; likewise the AR15, but do not go hunting grizzlies with either. Same for a 12 ga shotgun esp loaded with no 4 buck. - a 9mm parabellum pistol also works, the old .45 too. And so forth. - And more kairosfocus

Black population in US is 13%. 2019: 68% of mass shoting perpetrators were black. 2020 :73% of mass shoting perpetrators were black. 2021 : 74% of mass shoting perpetrators were black. Looks like Demoncratic Party do a very good job with the politic of hate. What a coincidence. Nothing to see here. https://mass-shootings.info/index.php Lieutenant Commander Data

Et at 198, Do you think I'm an idiot? There was zero - nothing - astute going on. relatd

AS That's what I saw also. It's not accurate journalism. They're just selling a message. Silver Asiatic

Relatd @ 196 Astute observations are not name calling. And the security people already know what to do. What part of, We know the problem and we know how to solve it. didn't you understand? FYI- I did years training the TSA on explosive detection and the use of explosive trace detectors. TSA, nuclear power plants, Colombia, Kuwait, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and even the Statue of Liberty- trained them all on security procedures, equipment and responses. ET

Relatd 1) Protect themselves from what? Be specific. In These 11 Incidents, Gun Owners Defended Life and Property https://www.heritage.org/firearms/commentary/these-11-incidents-gun-owners-defended-life-and-property 2) Based on my research, there are enough guns in the U.S. to supply every man, woman and child. Did you know that? Yes 3) How many rounds are too many? 10,000 or 50,000 or more? The Second Amendment doesn't address that. 4) How many weapons should the average person own? I don't know. I don't think they can shoot more than two at a time. But I don't know what the average person should do. 5) Is an AK-47 a good weapon for self-defense? The government could legitimately decide that some weapons are not appropriate for private ownership - although they could be used for a state militia. Silver Asiatic

ET at 195, Name calling? Finger pointing? What problem has that solved? You should contact Homeland Security right now with your suggestions and analysis. Feel free to post their response. relatd

JVL:

Oh dear, are the nasty liberals picking on you again?

I understand that you don't like facts. Infants usually don't.

BUT, it’s still a much higher percentage of people than in other countries.

You don't know that. Many countries don't report stuff like that.

Gee, I wonder why they prefer using automatic weapons?

Hey, dick, what automatic weapons were used in Texas?

Oh right, you can live with a few gun totting yahoos who take out 10 – 20 innocent people ’cause there aren’t that many of them. Is that what you’d be saying if it was your child’s school?

We do it properly, here. This could never happen in this school district. The school in Texas was allegedly protected. Someone there dropped the ball I have already said that Texas has lame gun laws. Pathetically lame, at that. Sandy Hook, the mentally ill loser took his mother's guns. She died for her massive failure. Crazy people have hijacked school busses. Using cars or trucks they can easily plow through a crowd of kids. Stuff like that has already been done. Can you imagine what a couple of Malatov cocktails could do to a crowd of people? One loser drove his truck into motorcyclists. They don't need guns. And stop pretending that you care about kids when you allow for their mass slaughter while they are at their most vulnerable. Pathetic. There was a time in the USA when we brought rifles to school for firearm safety and shooting lessons. That was in the 20th century- the latter half! We know the problem and we know how to solve it. The security in Texas messed up. Now we know they need better training. And if States like Texas allow you to buy a gun just because you are 18 and can lie, they need to pay. Yes, you may be able to get guns illegally. But even those sellers know it can all come back to them, so they are careful about who they sell to. So, again, a very, very, very small % of creeps that can be dealt with by competent security. Infringe on the creeps and leave the law-abiding citizens alone. ET

SA, So while I was looking for more details on this story I noticed that most of the related news items were gun restriction advocacy. In other words, the details of the shooting aren't really the purpose of the story. Andrew asauber

JVL at 190, I have a relative who saw combat during World War II. He was friends with other vets in the neighborhood. You know what? He rarely spoke about what he saw. The same with the other vets. We are talking about years of killing with every weapon available. relatd

JVL at 188, Please get a grip. Blood on the floors and walls? Were you there? Have you seen the crime scene photos? Were you among the investigators? As someone who works with professional writers, your crime scene re-creation is laughable. relatd

"Young children’s blood spread on the floors and walls of their classrooms. Until you decide that that is something that should be stopped" "it is difficult, it is actually horrible. But it happened. More than once. Many times actually." JVL, Sounds like you are ready for a serious abortion discussion. Just swap the word classroom for abortuary. Andrew asauber

Relatd: Your needless use of graphic violence imagery was needless. Please stop it. That is what happened. If you don't want to deal with it then you aren't dealing with the reality. Not buying a gun. That makes sense. Not associating with people who think violence – real violence – is fun. Also good. Not replying to people spewing nonsense on internet forums. Your call. Since you don't wish to visualise the blood-spattered walls of the classroom then are you not just turning your head away from the actual problem: dead children and red sprays of blood and entrails and brains on the walls and floors. THAT is what happened. THAT is what has to be prevented. THAT is what you have to focus on. It is unpleasant, it is difficult, it is actually horrible. But it happened. More than once. Many times actually. You can choose to turn your head away and do so again and again and again. But be honest and admit that that's what you are doing. JVL

SA at 185, "So people want freedom for gun purchases – to protect themselves." If you don't mind, I'd like you to answer a few questions: 1) Protect themselves from what? Be specific. 2) Based on my research, there are enough guns in the U.S. to supply every man, woman and child. Did you know that? 3) How many rounds are too many? 10,000 or 50,000 or more? 4) How many weapons should the average person own? 5) Is an AK-47 a good weapon for self-defense? relatd

Jerry: As I said if the US goes all these other countries which are held up as examples of the enlightened would be gone in 6 months. Not anymore. Europe is not in the same state as it was 80 years ago. As I said this has nothing to do with guns or children dying. It has everything to do with children dying. Everything else pales in comparison. Young children's blood spread on the floors and walls of their classrooms. Until you decide that that is something that should be stopped then I don't understand what the point of this thread is. JVL

Jerry at 184, Your appeal using history would be accurate if it was, in fact, accurate. No guns in "Nazi" Germany? I had a relative who was in Nazi Germany and he had a gun. He was neither a Nazi or German. relatd

JVL at 183, Your needless use of graphic violence imagery was needless. Please stop it. What am I doing to stop gun violence in America? Not buying a gun. Not associating with people who think violence - real violence - is fun. Not replying to people spewing nonsense on internet forums. relatd

AS Looks like there were some warnings that were ignored along the way also. I would think some responsibility needs to come back to the gun retailer. It's like selling alcohol to someone who is already drunk and is going to drive. In some places the bar has to take responsibility if there's an accident after that. Other kids knew that Salvador Ramos was mentally disturbed, but he never got any treatment or diagnosis. Looks like people weren't paying attention. One reason that many people in America resist stricter gun laws is that they do not trust the government. They see the hypocrisy and desire for control by the authoritarian left and defending oneself with weapons seems to be the only reasonable response. That's why conservative districts will have liberal gun laws. And liberal environments strictly control what people can do with guns. That's the contradiction. Extreme liberalism allows abortion on demand and forces people to accept gay-marriage, trans-indoctrination of kids, the southern US border wide-open for illegal entry and lockdowns, vaccine mandates, confiscation of property, imprisonment, termination of employment - and a national-media conspiracy to cover-up these truths (see 2000 Mules and also search "Jan 6 suspicious actors https://www.zerohedge.com/political/80-suspicious-actors-and-material-witnesses-under-scrutiny-jan-6-defense-attorneys And also search "Bobby Powell video"). So, people see what the leftist media and government are capable of - therefore private citizens owning guns is considered a first-line of defense against encroachment. That's always the problem with extreme liberalism. It's a self-serving message of supposed liberation, but if everyone is free to do whatever they want, then there will be chaos. The left knows this, and always has. So the message is "do whatever you want in our favored activities - in the areas where you will damage yourself and render yourself maleable to us - drug use, promiscuity) - but in all other areas, we will control your life as socialists will do." For every action there is a reaction. When people fear the government they will push back against it. Many Americans fear their government because they don't recognize themselves as represented by it. America is a huge place and very diverse. People find it hard to have anything in common with each other. It's not like an ordinary ethnicity (like being from Japan, for example) where everyone is bound together. People are frightened because they don't know what to expect from the left-wing. One day there are men and women, and the next day you can get arrested for using the wrong pronouns (metaphorically speaking). They make abortion legal to the day of birth, but it's illegal to mention ID in the classroom. Where there's no common philosophy of life within the culture, people cannot communicate with each other. The government can represent ideas that are hostile and threatening. So people want freedom for gun purchases - to protect themselves. Silver Asiatic

There were no guns in Nazi Germany nor Communist Russia. I wonder why. Compare the horror there with the United States as literally billions would love to live here. Also the United States which was founded by men with guns fighting several enemies, British, French, Spanish and Indians essentially along with England created the modern world. If it wasn't for the US and its men willing to die for freedom, all our European friends would be speaking either German or Russian and all of East Asia would be speaking Japanese. As I said if the US goes all these other countries which are held up as examples of the enlightened would be gone in 6 months. There is an analogy of the jungle and the garden. The garden is unnatural and was uniquely established once in history. It is constantly fighting off the jungle to remain a garden. That garden may require that it have guns to prevent the jungle from reclaiming the garden. https://spectator.com.au/2021/06/identity-crisis-how-the-politics-of-race-will-wreck-america/ As said above, the violence is not wide spread but very concentrated and not in the area of most of the guns. If guns were the problem wouldn't one expect the most violence to be where most of the guns are? But it is not there. As I said this has nothing to do with guns or children dying. jerry

Relatd: Try to leave your emotions and politics outside please. I find it hard not to get emotional when I think of what it must have been like in that classroom as 19 children lost their lives in a hail of bullets. Think of the the most graphic and bloodiest gun shootout you've seen in a film and then replace most of the grownups with children under the age of 10 getting hit in the head or the chest. The survivors will never be able to get that carnage out of their minds. This is not a uniquely American problem. The incident rate in America is much higher than in countries in Europe and Australia and Canada and New Zealand. You know that. And another thing. Don’t lump all Americans into one pot. OK? Not helpful. I don't. I've noted that many of my relatives are gun owners none of whom have misused their guns. I've seen some of their security and I know how seriously they take their responsibilities. I've also noted that I have shot several guns in the US and the UK and admitted that I quite enjoyed the experience. My point is that ALL Americans have to figure out how to deal with this problem. I have read the stat that there are more guns (legal I assume) than people in America. I'm just going to guess that MOST people in America do not own a gun based on my 40 years of living there. IF that is true then gun owners are a minority in the country and most of them own two or more firearms. Again, IF that is true then why can't the non-gun owners do something about the situation? What are you, personally, doing to prevent such a travesty and tragedy from happening again? The kids in the classrooms should not have their brains and entrails sprayed across a classroom wall and their classmates and if there is anything you can do about it then you should . . . shouldn't you? JVL

Here is a statement from the Department of Homeland Security. https://www.dhs.gov/news/2022/05/25/statement-secretary-mayorkas-shooting-uvalde-texas relatd

SA, I heard he had worked at Wendy's but quit. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10855013/Texas-elementary-school-killer-Salvador-Ramos-got-job-Wendys-save-4-000-guns.html Andrew asauber

JVL at 177, Try to leave your emotions and politics outside please. This is not a uniquely American problem. I can post a few incidents (not school shootings but people died) from the UK if you like. I had a good conversation with someone from the UK recently. There is definitely a different mentality at work. One that begins from a young age and continues to adulthood. No one can get into the minds of those who decide to pick up a weapon and start killing people. The gun lobby in the U.S. just wants to sell more guns. That is the reality. Apparently, even today, the goal is to promote more gun sales because of "rights." That's wrong. It remains to be seen what will be done once this incident is fully investigated. And another thing. Don't lump all Americans into one pot. OK? Not helpful. I have never been arrested, never owned a gun, and never set out to hurt anyone. So saying "they don't want to" does not refer to me or any of the Americans I know. relatd

"every time this happens there’s a lot of weeping and wailing and NOTHING ever happens" JVL This isn't true. But often the things that happen don't really address the problems. And there are many in this case. Andrew asauber

Again, the nonsense from the anti ID people just reflects a divide that is in the world. One group that is interested in truth and one that isn't. Why are the anti ID not interested in truth? That is the much bigger issue in our world and ID is just a small reflection of that. I use the term "anti ID" as just an indication of the much bigger divide out there, one that doesn't know anything about the ID issues. But there is a huge swath of humanity that has no interest in truth unless it affects them personally. The gun argument in the US is just one aspect of it. jerry

ET: Look, it’s just a very, very, very, small % of people who do this crap. Oh dear, are the nasty liberals picking on you again? Poor baby. BUT, it's still a much higher percentage of people than in other countries. Why is that do you think, if you're done getting your knickers in a twist. And people intent on doing harm will find a way. Gee, I wonder why they prefer using automatic weapons? Do you suppose if they were just a bit harder to obtain then some of those people might not bother or do as much damage? Wouldn't it be worth it if those 19 kids hadn't been killed? How much inconvenience are those lives worth? Why is Texas so happy to sell an automatic weapon to an 18-year old who sounds like a high risk individual? Could that 18-year old have made a similar purchase where you live? Sandyhook wasn't in Texas, what are the laws like there? It’s so pathetic to hand down an indictment of the USA when it is just a few out of 350,000,000 Oh right, you can live with a few gun totting yahoos who take out 10 - 20 innocent people 'cause there aren't that many of them. Is that what you'd be saying if it was your child's school? And it’s always the pro-abortion clowns being the hypocrites. It's almost like they value primary school kids lives more. Why are you more worried about kids in the wombs than kids in the classrooms? And if you are genuinely worried about kids in the classrooms then what are you going to do about it aside from moaning and whining? I heard several long term correspondence from the UK who have spent a lot of time in the US and they all said: every time this happens there's a lot of weeping and wailing and NOTHING ever happens. Apparently, recently, Texas even relaxed some of its laws. From the outside a country with more guns than people (and I assume that's just the legal ones) where there are such incidents all the time the US does sound like they love their guns more than they love their kids. And if you think the solution is to put even more guns into play (arm teachers, put guards everywhere) . . . if you're will to pay for that then it begins to sound even more like an obsession. (Also, can you imagine how effective a scared and barely competent armed teacher is going to be in a classroom full of their students who are getting shot one right after the other? I'd be surprised if they could even hit the gunman themselves. And guess who the gunman would go for next if they missed? With an automatic weapon. It would make the gunfight at the OK Corral look like a honourable dispute.) If you need more social services like mental health support then why not pay for that? If you need more programmes to help at risk people then why not pay for that? It's an American problem and it's down to Americans to solve. But they don't want to; they never do anything to help stop it from happening again and again and again. Thousands of children every year. What are you going to do about it? JVL

He worked at Wendy's. Was known to be aggressive and angry at times. Was bullied and mocked and ... "whose father was never present in his life." Like the abortion issue as discussed - when men abandon their family and kids and don't take the role of fatherhood seriously - young boys especially suffer and can end up unhinged. Crisis of manhood and fatherhood in our country. Lack of role models for men. Effeminate churches and feminism in general. The exaltation of the gay culture. Men don't get support and are denied authority for raising kids. Even the federal and local government conspire against families. So men drop out, leave it to the women. The teenage boys are filled with rage - and these things happen. Silver Asiatic

And where does an 18yr old high school dropout with no job get the money to buy weapons and ammo? I can't imagine he has a credit card. Andrew asauber

Also, the school evidently has a 6ft fence around it. Climb over? Go through the gate? Andrew asauber

ET, Hopefully we'll get some verified details at some point. Andrew asauber

Andrew- That person wasn't there and doesn't know. ET

This story suggests the shooter may have just entered an unlocked door. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/former-principal-school-door-uvalde-gunman-used-not-a-soft-target/ar-AAXJDvs?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=c591c0fcf0544ac0939d1a42e2349dd2 Andrew asauber

Look, it’s just a very, very, very, small % of people who do this crap. And people intent on doing harm will find a way. It’s so pathetic to hand down an indictment of the USA when it is just a few out of 350,000,000. And it’s always the pro-abortion clowns being the hypocrites. ET

Security Failure "The teenage madman who slaughtered 19 kids and two teachers in a Texas school spent more than 40 minutes inside as witnesses desperately urged police to charge into the building, it was ­revealed Wednesday. Salvador Ramos barricaded himself inside the classroom before opening fire on students and teachers inside. Border Patrol agents finally breached the door about 40 minutes to an hour later when a staff member gave them a key." https://nypost.com/2022/05/25/police-waited-to-enter-texas-school-as-shooter-went-on-killing-spree/ Andrew asauber

It’s interesting how the divide is. What people fail to discuss is the obvious? Almost 400 million guns and so little violence. There is definitely too much violence in the US but it’s not concentrated where the guns are. It is not the overwhelming majority of the gun owners who are the problem. They are a major plus. About 4 billion people if given the chance would come to violent America which is part of the problem. Why do they want to come? Why are they the problem? And a lot are actually trying. To compare Canada, New Zealand or other western democracies and their completely different ethnic make up is absurd. None of these western countries would last 6 months if the US disappeared. And they know it. How many people are immigrating to China, Russia, India, Indonesia, Africa or Latin America? By the way several NATO countries in Europe are actively trading with Russia despite the war. I mention this to show how desperate people become when their lives/modern life styles are at stake. Aside: it was a fourth grade that was attacked. But it was his high school that rejected the shooter. Aside2: this has nothing to do with guns causing harm or children dying. Look at the divide on this. That should tell you everything. jerry

:) Darwin's lackeys on the one side say that life is meaningless and on the other side they play virtue signalling game . You can't have it both ways. Life is meaningless or is not . If you choose that is meaningless then everything that happens has no meaning .Somehow darwinists "discover" the meaning and morality when something happens and become more religious than any theist :lol: because they can't let a virtue signalling opportunity pass without "profit"(showing off their hypocrisy). Lieutenant Commander Data

America's gun culture - in seven charts https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41488081 JVL

If he had been inclined, it is not hard to make an effective bomb, turning the vehicle into a kamikaze weapon.

I initially laughed hollowly at this non sequitur. Then I recalled Timothy McVey and two tons of ammonium nitrate. I don't know but I would hope there are systems in place that restrict unusual purchases of this fertiliser. Edit: https://www.cisa.gov/ammonium-nitrate-security-program Fred Hickson

Law enforcement have some explaining to do over who locked the classroom door. Fred Hickson

TimR, actually, many of those are points of comparison. I believe, however Israel is actually on the whole largely secular though with a strong religious minority among the Jewish population. Those factors do not change the fact that a major persistent soft target threat has been effectively managed through target hardening, border control etc. I suspect the US still imagines itself in a business as usual peaceful situation; maybe that needs revision. KF kairosfocus

https://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2022/05/25/andrew-follett-says-the-media-is-telling-you-two-major-lies-about-mass-shootings-and-gun-control/ Vivid vividbleau

Israel is surrounded by hostile countries, some of which it has been at war with in the recent past. There is sharp ethnic division at its centre, which has resulted in active terrorist organisations operating within it and in neighbouring countries, and in the need for it to maintain military service. It is a deeply religious country, and there you do have a point of comparison with the US (in contrast with the rest of the western liberal democracies). TimR

TimR, but the comparison is obviously relevant, for whatever reasons that may differ there is a pattern of soft target attacks reflecting nihilism. Twenty one years ago in the US the worst such attack killed 3,000. As I just noted, just across the nearby border, full auto weapons are in play. KF PS, actually, you are wrong about other countries. There are any number of places where a lot of violence happens, sometimes the typical weekly toll would shock you. On machetes etc the worst case is of course Rwanda in 1994. Again, the pattern is rise of nihilism and societal breakdown into lawless conduct. The longer term answers will lie down that road. kairosfocus

CD, a rifle makes a more dangerous wound than a typical handgun round; including intermediate rounds such as the .223. So would a shotgun slug. That is not news. The rifle is also far more cumbersome and that is why it is not a typical weapon except under special circumstances. Where, too, modern ballistic protection is such that pistol rounds will struggle to cope, even in a defensive situation, as we can possibly see with the shooting the way in phase, the officers likely thought they had to try a far more difficult target in a high stress situation. And sixty miles away is a border, across which for many years many fully automatic weapons have been in use in a civil war like situation, where the border is inadequately secured. KF kairosfocus

Kairosfocus: yes, but I would hope the US doesn't compare itself to Israel. Or, for that matter China. And yes, of course we can point to horrific acts in other countries (here in NZ we had the Christchurch massacre a year or two ago). But the US is unique in the regularity of these events. We all have knives and machetes etc in other countries. But we are not routinely mowing down our citizens with them or with anything else. In the rest of the world we just stare in incomprehension every time it happens and every time nothing is done. We can't understand, one why it happens, and two why nothing is done about it. There is something different in the culture in the US that is leading to these events occurring time and time again. JHolo suggested some reasons. Do you have any ideas? TimR

Vivid, it does seem he shot his way in, we need to ask why the officers he engaged on breaking in did not work as a team to take him out. I suspect the tactical vest was a part of the problem, they may have thought they did not have weapons able to deal with armour. It would be interesting to learn what the radio controllers on the officers told them. Notice, too, rapid convergence of officers from multiple agencies, that means there was widespread radio communication, perhaps including cell phones. I also note the standard is for a break in should be at least two officers, it was a single border patrol officer who went in and took a hit taking the shooter out. Compare the recent shooting incidents in churches. KF kairosfocus

TimR and others, kindly note what has happened in Israel. likewise, recall the recent Christmas Market vehicular mowing down, and also the fact that indeed at Columbine there was an intent to blow up a bomb as finale. There are some deeply wrong things that have happened and are happening that have led to nihilism at the fringe. In this case, we have a just turned 18 year old who blew up over being chided for poor academic performance. In the shadows, he first shot his grandmother (she was serious but will survive). He took out what is inside him by going to a school full of children, a soft target, to shoot it up. Whatever demons were riding him, recall, he drove there in a pickup. That could just as easily have been used to mow people down in a crowd. If he had been inclined, it is not hard to make an effective bomb, turning the vehicle into a kamikaze weapon. We are not told enough details but one guess is, he may have been on psychoactive drugs, officially and/or unofficially. Similarly, it does not get reported like this but in many inner cities there are many "gang" mass shootings, Chicago is a commonly cited case. Then there is the phrase, going postal. Do not overlook, attacks with machetes or the like, including school attacks, I recall one being in China. I add as context that for 49 years on average, every week in the US 25,000 of our living posterity in the womb have been killed, under decrees under colour of law, rights and choice; the weekly global toll is a million. The point is, there is a demonically nihilistic plague of attacking others on the loose and after target hardening, that has to be addressed. We live in a dark age, and we need to ask some questions about it. KF kairosfocus

https://www.crimeonline.com/2022/05/25/police-engaged-shooter-outside-elementary-school-before-he-killed-19-students-inside-state-police/ Hope this is not accurate. Vivid vividbleau

So many? Get a grip. And stop quote-mining me. Also, guns aren't required to wreak havoc. And what evil people do in other countries isn't always reported. What planet are you on? ET

ET: "people intent on doing harm will find a way" is the same argument as Barry's no. 3 quoted by Seversky above. But I guess the question is - why are there so many people intent on doing harm in the US? What in the culture is it that leads to multiple gun massacres? We have bad men in all countries. But the US is unique in their propensity to live out their fantasies. TimR

I'll take a 9mm in a classroom setting. A rifle indoors isn't ideal unless you are shooting down a long hallway. ET

Look, it's just a very, very, very, small % of people who do this crap. And people intent on doing harm will find a way. It's so pathetic to hand down an indictment of the USA when it is just a few out of 350,000,000. And it's always the pro-abortion clowns being the hypocrites. ET

Defend The Children

A good idea. Unfortunately, the lack of any effective action following previous mass shootings suggest that what is actually being defended is the gun culture and the firearms industry which supplies it.

1. There are hundreds of millions of guns in the US.

And who's fault is that?

2. Even assuming for the sake of argument that it would be a desirable thing to do, no gun control law can eliminate all or even a small fraction of those guns.

No one thinks there is a "silver bullet" solution to this issue but it should be possible to craft legislation that would gradually whittle down the number of guns in circulation over time. Isn't it worth a try?

3. Evil men will always be able to get a gun.

That's no reason not to try and make it more difficult for them.

4. Schools are soft targets full of defenseless people.

There was no reason for them to be anything else until these shootings started.

5. We can’t hire enough cops to guard all of those people.

Probably not and even the presence of armed officers has not always been as effective as one might have hoped.

6. We need to equip and train school staff who are willing to do so to defend themselves and the children in their care.

School staff signed up to be teachers not police or soldiers but I'm sure you could find some who would be prepared to take up arms to defend the children in their care. Of course, they would have to be adequately armed. If they only have access to a 9mm semiautomatic pistol they are going to find themselves seriously outgunned by a shooter armed with an AR15. You would need to provide them both with an AR15 or AK47 and with the extensive training they would need to use them effectively.

7. Don’t tell me it can’t be done. It is being done in Israel.

Nobody is saying it can't be done but Israel is in a semi-permanent state of low-intensity war with its neighbors. We are lamenting the fact that it should be necessary in one of the world's wealthiest and most powerful countries to turn schools into fortified, armed compounds. Seversky

TimR: What is different about America compared to all the other western democracies that has led to this state of affairs?

NRA, misinterpretation of the 2nd amendment, and right-wing gun nuts. JHolo

What is wrong with American culture, where it is believed necessary for schools to be fortresses and have armed guards? Why are Americans constantly massacring each other? What is different about America compared to all the other western democracies that has led to this state of affairs? TimR

BA/62 A little light reading for your edification: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/02/what-i-saw-treating-the-victims-from-parkland-should-change-the-debate-on-guns/553937/?utm_source=email&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share chuckdarwin

Shoot the vest anyway. And yes, JHolo, the Texas gun laws are a joke. With their gun laws they need to make schools close to impenetrable. ET

The gunman who killed 19 students and two teachers Tuesday in an elementary school in Uvalde, Texas, wasn’t known to law enforcement ahead of time and had no documented mental-health issues and no known arrests, state officials said Wednesday.

He was able to legally buy an assault weapon, but couldn’t legally buy a beer. Am I the only one who sees a problem with that. JHolo

Relatd: You don’t see the connection with abortion?

No. Other countries have far less restrictive abortion laws, and don’t have the mass shootings that the US does. And, ironically, most also have lower abortion rates. I don’t see the link. JHolo

KF: What you miss is that Canada, Britain and Europe are able to benefit from the US.

Yes, they benefit from the errors the US makes. Too bad that the US doesn’t. JHolo

KF at 135, We're all going to hell in a handbasket. Soon there will be rioting and shootings followed by more rioting and shootings. And the international vultures are doing bad things... We've got nothing helpful here. Nothing. And all those who died through abortion? Should Roe v. Wade be overturned, a few states have already announced that they will not enforce the change in law. This will lead to lawsuits to follow the change in law. I don't think those who are watching this are not preparing for trouble. They are. relatd

PPS, have you forgotten what happened in London, Paris, India, Kenya, Sri Lanka etc? kairosfocus

JH at 137, You don't see the connection with abortion? The devaluing of human life? The turning of abortion into a woman only issue disconnects the very necessary man from the equation. She didn't get pregnant by herself. And fathers. There are a lot of young men in prison who had no father in their lives. Think about that. relatd

JH, the US, from history and given demographics with regional variations is very different from Canada. What you miss is that Canada, Britain and Europe are able to benefit from the US. The situation of Canada as pointed out is quite different and with the situation exemplified by 1973, the degree of disaffection is higher than it seems to you. We had better hope things don't come apart in the US as that will destabilise the global geostrategic situation. Watch Ukraine, Iran and Taiwan. KF PS, as you so cleverly skipped over in the OP, Israel did. And it showed that target hardening works, kairosfocus

ET, he only had the harness there were no inserts but the defenders could not be sure and headshots under stress are hard. He broke through, got to one class which he shot up and then someone came in. It should have been two but I guess there was no time. The border patrol agent took a wound but got his man. A sad day. KF kairosfocus

Andrew: KF: Still has the dead babies, though.

And so does the US. But Canada doesn’t have the dead shoppers, or concert goers, or elementary school students, or.., You really have to pay attention. KF’s nonsense about abortion has nothing to do with mass shootings. JHolo

Needing bullet-proof doors, then. If trained armed guards and trained police couldn't stop him, that needs to be looked into. I heard the shooter may have had body amour. Unless it was head-to-toe there is plenty of target left. And a body shot would at least knock him down. And it looks like the internal security needs to be beefed up. Can't allow bad guys access to the classrooms if they manage to get inside the building. ET

JVL, not every decree done in the name of law using institutions, offices, ceremonies etc is properly lawful. In January 1973 the US Supreme Court used its status to decree a ruling that lacked Constitutional much less built in law of our nature foundation, and which imposed an average toll of 25,000 of living posterity in the womb killed per week. This, through the government and ruthless power has been repeatedly used to block or slow down to near standstill any correction. The unprecedented leak and threats game has been typical. That sort of betrayal of the prime duty of government comes at a cost and you are looking at on one hand erosion of respect for life as was warned of. On the other, you see increasing disaffection which is a driver of the purchases of weapons not just for personal protection but as an insurance and as a message to the powers. In that toxic climate, what is going on just now is further feeding the situation. And with that kind of usurpation and blood toll people are right to seriously doubt the government. I suspect, time for reformation is running out and the current leak fiasco may turn really, really ugly. Of course all of this is further feeding the hopes of the geostrategic vultures. KF kairosfocus

ET, looks like he shot his way in. KF kairosfocus

Andrew- The reports say that police engaged him before he entered the building. I also read they had independent armed guards. So, I must be missing something. Armed guards at the school should have heard the gun fire and then responded to keep the gunman outside. ET

Kairosfocus: given the action under colour of law in question and the result, that is seriously to be doubted. What action 'under colour of law'? What is to be doubted? I don't understand you at all. The US is a sovereign nation which has given no reason for its autonomy to be challenged. i'm not sure you're really paying attention. Perhaps you could make an attempt to be more clear in your replies instead of going for pithy and succinct and confusing. JVL

"Don’t they lock the doors?" ET, I think the doors are supposed to be locked. But in the info released, this detail about entering the building is missing. Andrew asauber

KF at 128, Corruption in government. Corruption in the media. Man wants to live a life that includes things that are bad for him. It was always thus. But today, the degree of corruption in institutions is greater. A wise and educated citizenry is a bulwark against electing anyone not fit for the duties of office. But as the tentacles of corruption reach into schools for children and young adults, they are being taught to hate the U.S. They are being manipulated. So parents home school and those in colleges can fend for themselves but only if they have been taught good and true things and have the wisdom to separate truth from lies in their education. Believe it or not, most people want and will accept the truth, that is, what can be shown to be true. But those actually in charge need to keep manipulation going. It never lasts once it reaches a certain point. Soon the people who can stand it no more, will stand up against the falsehoods being spread among them and reject those falsehoods. Getting back to the topic, do some research. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34102649/ It's not like the FBI, for example, has ignored this. https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/stats-services-publications-school-shooter-school-shooter relatd

I am still wondering how he gained access to the school with armed guards there. Don't they lock the doors? ET

Relatd, your reaction tells me you haven't. KF PS, I linked earlier but obviously the key insight of Plato driven by that context has not registered. Pardon a chunk of text, therefore:

It is not too hard to figure out that our civilisation is in deep trouble and is most likely headed for shipwreck. (And of course, that sort of concern is dismissed as “apocalyptic,” or neurotic pessimism that refuses to pause and smell the roses.) Plato’s Socrates spoke to this sort of situation, long since, in the ship of state parable in The Republic, Bk VI:

>>[Soc.] I perceive, I said, that you are vastly amused at having plunged me into such a hopeless discussion; but now hear the parable, and then you will be still more amused at the meagreness of my imagination: for the manner in which the best men are treated in their own States is so grievous that no single thing on earth is comparable to it; and therefore, if I am to plead their cause, I must have recourse to fiction, and put together a figure made up of many things, like the fabulous unions of goats and stags which are found in pictures. Imagine then a fleet or a ship in which there is a captain [–> often interpreted, ship’s owner] who is taller and stronger than any of the crew, but he is a little deaf and has a similar infirmity in sight, and his knowledge of navigation is not much better. [= The people own the community and in the mass are overwhelmingly strong, but are ill equipped on the whole to guide, guard and lead it] The sailors are quarrelling with one another about the steering – every one is of opinion that he has a right to steer [= selfish ambition to rule and dominate], though he has never learned the art of navigation and cannot tell who taught him or when he learned, and will further assert that it cannot be taught, and they are ready to cut in pieces any one who says the contrary. They throng about the captain, begging and praying him to commit the helm to them [–> kubernetes, steersman, from which both cybernetics and government come in English]; and if at any time they do not prevail, but others are preferred to them, they kill the others or throw them overboard [ = ruthless contest for domination of the community], and having first chained up the noble captain’s senses with drink or some narcotic drug [ = manipulation and befuddlement, cf. the parable of the cave], they mutiny and take possession of the ship and make free with the stores; thus, eating and drinking, they proceed on their voyage in such a manner as might be expected of them [–> Cf here Luke’s subtle case study in Ac 27]. Him who is their partisan and cleverly aids them in their plot for getting the ship out of the captain’s hands into their own whether by force or persuasion [–> Nihilistic will to power on the premise of might and manipulation making ‘right’ ‘truth’ ‘justice’ ‘rights’ etc], they compliment with the name of sailor, pilot, able seaman, and abuse the other sort of man, whom they call a good-for-nothing; but that the true pilot must pay attention to the year and seasons and sky and stars and winds, and whatever else belongs to his art, if he intends to be really qualified for the command of a ship, and that he must and will be the steerer, whether other people like or not-the possibility of this union of authority with the steerer’s art has never seriously entered into their thoughts or been made part of their calling. Now in vessels which are in a state of mutiny and by sailors who are mutineers, how will the true pilot be regarded? Will he not be called by them a prater, a star-gazer, a good-for-nothing? [Ad.] Of course, said Adeimantus. [Soc.] Then you will hardly need, I said, to hear the interpretation of the figure, which describes the true philosopher in his relation to the State [ --> here we see Plato's philosopher-king emerging]; for you understand already. [Ad.] Certainly. [Soc.] Then suppose you now take this parable to the gentleman who is surprised at finding that philosophers have no honour in their cities; explain it to him and try to convince him that their having honour would be far more extraordinary. [Ad.] I will. [Soc.] Say to him, that, in deeming the best votaries of philosophy to be useless to the rest of the world, he is right; but also tell him to attribute their uselessness to the fault of those who will not use them, and not to themselves. The pilot should not humbly beg the sailors to be commanded by him –that is not the order of nature; neither are ‘the wise to go to the doors of the rich’ –the ingenious author of this saying told a lie –but the truth is, that, when a man is ill, whether he be rich or poor, to the physician he must go, and he who wants to be governed, to him who is able to govern. [--> the issue of competence and character as qualifications to rule] The ruler who is good for anything ought not to beg his subjects to be ruled by him [ --> down this road lies the modern solution: a sound, well informed people will seek sound leaders, who will not need to manipulate or bribe or worse, and such a ruler will in turn be checked by the soundness of the people, cf. US DoI, 1776]; although the present governors of mankind are of a different stamp; they may be justly compared to the mutinous sailors, and the true helmsmen to those who are called by them good-for-nothings and star-gazers. [Ad.] Precisely so, he said. [Soc] For these reasons, and among men like these, philosophy, the noblest pursuit of all, is not likely to be much esteemed by those of the opposite faction [--> the sophists, the Demagogues, Alcibiades and co, etc]; not that the greatest and most lasting injury is done to her by her opponents, but by her own professing followers, the same of whom you suppose the accuser to say, that the greater number of them are arrant rogues, and the best are useless; in which opinion I agreed [--> even among the students of the sound state (here, political philosophy and likely history etc.), many are of unsound motivation and intent, so mere education is not enough, character transformation is critical]. [Ad.] Yes. [Soc.] And the reason why the good are useless has now been explained? [Ad.] True. [Soc.] Then shall we proceed to show that the corruption of the majority is also unavoidable [--> implies a need for a corruption-restraining minority providing proverbial salt and light, cf. Ac 27, as well as justifying a governing structure turning on separation of powers, checks and balances], and that this is not to be laid to the charge of philosophy any more than the other? [Ad.] By all means. [Soc.] And let us ask and answer in turn, first going back to the description of the gentle and noble nature.[ -- > note the character issue] Truth, as you will remember, was his leader, whom he followed always and in all things [ --> The spirit of truth as a marker]; failing in this, he was an impostor, and had no part or lot in true philosophy [--> the spirit of truth is a marker, for good or ill] . . . >>

(There is more than an echo of this in Acts 27, a real world case study. [Luke, a physician, was an educated Greek with a taste for subtle references.] This blog post, on soundness in policy, will also help)

kairosfocus

JVL, given the action under colour of law in question and the result, that is seriously to be doubted. KF kairosfocus

KF at 124, The Peloponnesian War? Seriously? Most people do not know much history, so I doubt that they could relate. Maybe if one side had machine-guns... Oh wait. Stick to the present day please. relatd

Kairosfocus: did people say that about Nazi Germany’s death camps or the Gulag? The analogy is not sound. The US is still a nation of laws. I have no say in how they deal with their problems. It's up to them to solve their problems. I get vilified if I say how I think the US should deal with guns. I get vilified if I don't say how I think the US should deal with guns. Maybe the US citizens should figure out how to deal with guns without the interference of people outside of the US. It is their call. JVL

Relatd, did you study the history of Athens surrounding the Peloponnesian war? KF kairosfocus

KF at 122, I have studied military and paramilitary operations. Aside from new technology, nothing about human beings has changed. Disaster has been around since the start of this country. Those actually in charge are making too much money in the U.S. to let it go downhill. They have no alternative. relatd

Relatd, no I am highlighting the crookedness of the yardsticks of the governance classes. Absent a thorough reformation, disaster predictably lies ahead. And we are seeing ship of state games, the very thing Luke critiques by microcosm counter example in Ac 27. KF PS, you don't want to hear my geostrategic analysis. PPS, did you read what I gave above, at 30, which was endorsed by the man who is just about the leading expert on the real deal at Columbine. kairosfocus

KF at 120, Reaching. You are reaching. What needs to de done now - today? relatd

JVL, did people say that about Nazi Germany's death camps or the Gulag? KF kairosfocus

As more details come to light, did the shooter enter the school through an unlocked door? Andrew asauber

KF at 110, Do you know the whole story about how abortion was legalized in the U.S.? 1960 - The FDA approves the birth control pill. Most women do not want or need it. It is available by prescription only. 1967 - The April 7, 1967 issue of Time magazine has a cover story about The Pill. The article headline is "Contraception: Freedom from Fear." Fear of what? Babies. That gift from God, that bundle of joy. That was a lie. 1968 - The National Association for the Repeal of Abortion Laws, later, the National Abortion Rights Action League, took action. They pushed for legal abortion and lied to the American public and the media. https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/resource/55401/an-ex-abortionist-speaks relatd

FH, your talking point on Israel is immediately self discrediting. KF kairosfocus

Asuaber: Maybe JVL can point us to some elegant math that solves violence. Those with the problem need to find the solution that works for them. No one outside of the situation should be telling them what to do. What's wrong with that? JVL

"Canada has no restriction on abortion, and they don’t have the level of gun violence that the US does." Still has the dead babies, though. Andrew asauber

Relatd: Even though you no longer live in the U.S., the ‘it’s not my problem’ approach is not helpful. I'm not going to preach to people about what they should and shouldn't do. They need to find the solution that works for them. The people with the problem should decide, not those who are not part of that system. Why are you so antagonistic? JVL

Relatd, Well, Big Picture-wise, if the shooter was taught to respect life and not hate it, the incident doesn't happen. Andrew asauber

Andrew: It needs to be brought up until it is abolished. It’s the leading indicator that we are living in a Culture of Death. Human life has been devalued. We need to restore a Culture of Life.

Canada has no restriction on abortion, and they don’t have the level of gun violence that the US does. JHolo

Andrew at 109, Yes but how will that stop gun violence? Most people in the U.S. who kill each other know each other. Most people who use guns are not using them in mass shootings. relatd

JH, start with this, EVERY WEEK SINCE 1973, with solemn order of the US Government, 25,000 -- half a Vietnam war worth -- of the US' living posterity in the womb has been killed under colour of law, celebrated as rights and choice by the establishment and major media. The fundamental corrosion of values through that mass blood guilt under aegis of the US govt must be reckoned with in seeking any responsible solution. The absence of THIS statistic exposes all others as tainted by the crooked yardstick of a decadent culture of death, one that cumulatively is five times the overall Nazi holocaust in numbers of victims. This is at the heart of the sickness. Fix that and the reforms so to do will fix anyt other problems, fail to fix it and you tell the heartland people that the ruthless want them set up as sheep to be shorn or slaughtered at will. In short, the guns are a sign of fatal disaffection by a people willing and equipped to fight for themselves. Many other bad consequences stem from it but how does one deal with a government already responsible for 63 million innocent souls? KF kairosfocus

"Why bring up abortion?" Relatd, It needs to be brought up until it is abolished. It's the leading indicator that we are living in a Culture of Death. Human life has been devalued. We need to restore a Culture of Life. Andrew asauber

Dogdoc at 106, Where is your research? Where is your evidence that anyone 'loves guns'? Do you know why most people own guns? Research, not speculation please. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/09/13/key-facts-about-americans-and-guns/ relatd

KF at 102, So it's the government's fault? That's it? And what we in the U.S. have to look forward to is more of the same? Not helpful - at all. Why bring up abortion? Jane Roe was Norma McCorvey in Roe v. Wade. She never got an abortion. So what was she doing there? She became actively pro-life. relatd

Barry is clearly right that we are well past a point of no return regarding gun ownership. At this point, any attempt to disarm the populace will not only fail, it will result in increasing the proportion of bad actors among gun owners. That doesn't mean that the prevalence of firearms in the U.S. isn't an obvious reason for our disproportionate gun violence, it just means we can't solve the problem by taking away guns. Some claim that "mental illness" in the U.S. is primarily responsible, but I'm not aware of any studies revealing the frequency of mental illness here is greater than in other countries. Others claim that turning away from religion, or embracing evolutionary theory, plays a crucial role in increasing gun violence, but that just doesn't comport with evidence from other countries who are experiencing increasing secularization without a commensurate upswing in gun violence. I agree with those who have focused on our attitude toward guns. Hollywood movies, video games, and music videos all glamorize gun violence. People fetishize guns, especially those that are similar to military weapons designed to kill people efficiently. There are gun-oriented websites and magazines with women in bikinis posing with deadly weapons, which is bizarre. Recently, our elected politicians even sent out holiday cards with all of the family members holding these weapons! Rather than focus on how much fun it is to own and use these weapons, and glamorize them in our entertainment, we should be thinking about how to change our relationship to them. It should not be cool or socially acceptable to "love guns". dogdoc

AS, more details:

Officers from multiple agencies responded to the school, among them both on- and off-duty Border Patrol agents. It was one of those agents, the Associated Press reported, who rushed into the school, found the shooter barricaded in a classroom, and fatally shot him. The agent was wounded in the gunfire and has since been released from the hospital. The AP also said that investigators told CNN all the fatalities were in the same 4th grade classroom.

KF kairosfocus

LCD: You said morality is subjective . Do the math.

And how has that objective mirality been working out? JHolo

Some food for thought from https://www.sandyhookpromise.org/blog/gun-violence/16-facts-about-gun-violence-and-school-shootings/

Each day 12 children die from gun violence in America. Another 32 are shot and injured.1 Guns are the leading cause of death among American children and teens. 1 out of 10 gun deaths are age 19 or younger.2 The U.S. has had 2,032 school shootings since 1970 and these numbers are increasing. Alarmingly, 948 school shootings have taken place since the tragedy at Sandy Hook Elementary School in December 2012. In 4 out of 5 school shootings, at least one other person had knowledge of the attacker’s plan but failed to report it. About 1 out of 5 gay and lesbian youth have been threatened or injured with a weapon on school property. The majority of individuals with diagnosed mental illness do not engage in violence against others.

JHolo

Folks, if it weren't so sad (and likely a harbinger), it would be amusing. The US is a state where, 50 years ago, a panel of the most highly qualified and vetted Government officials established under colour of rights the slaughter of 63 million of your living posterity in the womb and every attempt to stop the slaughter has been attacked ruthlessly. If that does not wake you up to how dangerous, reckless and ruthless the Government and establishment are, nothing will. We are now in a day where the frontiers are closed, there is nowhere to go to get away from the out of control state. Under those circumstances it is a very reasonable stance for people to take steps under what freedoms they have left to defend themselves. And 10,000 rounds is about two years of practice or a month or so of fighting in a situation where if the balloon goes up, restocking is going to be a problem for years on end. So, it may be an ugly picture but the situation is far uglier. Well do I remember coming around an aisle in a supermarket with wife and child, only to see a police man IIRC in flack coat and with an M16 [I think full auto] in his supermarket trolley coming the other way. That is where that society was, and 20 years before the police, armed with police 38 revolvers and 303 WW1 vintage rifles were suddenly outgunned; it was C19 meet C20. I recall studying one night at that earlier time to hear pi pi, tatatatatat. Then tat tat. (More like pop.) A police officer had been ambushed in a rum shop. He got off two rounds with his service revolver before being cut down with ten rounds per second M16 fire. You do not want to go there. KF kairosfocus

Really? “He was engaged by an Uvalde ISD police officer who works here at the school,” Estrada told CNN. “And then after that, he was engaged by two other officers from the Uvalde Police Department.” The officers did not pursue the suspect into the school. “At that point as he made entry he began shooting children, teachers, anybody that was in his way he was shooting people that were in front of him,” Texas Department of Public Safety Lt. Chris Olivares told KPRC." https://www.crimeonline.com/2022/05/25/police-engaged-shooter-outside-elementary-school-before-he-killed-19-students-inside-state-police/ Andrew asauber

Maybe JVL can point us to some elegant math that solves violence. Andrew asauber

JVL, "change their stance"? About what? The right to bear arms? A massive sweep for illegal weapons? Even though you no longer live in the U.S., the 'it's not my problem' approach is not helpful. So, to all reading - no practical ideas? If you don't trust the government to stop or reduce the occurrence of this sort of thing, then what are the practical steps? relatd

Relatd:You’ve offered no clue about the ‘top-tier’ countries and why things are different there. Should I take out a calculator to solve this problem? That's right, I haven't. It's up to the people with the problem to solve the problem. It's not up to someone from the outside to dictate what they should do. I thought you would appreciate that. I was just pointing out the different perspectives and situations. You guys do what you can do. It's not my call. Why does anyone need an AK-47 and 10,000 rounds of ammunition? I agree but I'm not part of the problem or part of the possible solution. It's up to the people of the US to find a way to deal with the situation. If they choose to change their stance. JVL

Viola Lee I’m leaving. Your guys ideology is unconscionable. It’s one thing to play fun-and-games about philosophical issues and another to heartlessly blame schools and teachers for what is in fact a totally unjustified love affair with guns and … I can’t even begin to think about how wrong you are all to be making ideological hay out of such a tragedy.

You said morality is subjective . Do the math. Lieutenant Commander Data

JVL at 93, You've offered no clue about the 'top-tier' countries and why things are different there. Should I take out a calculator to solve this problem? President Obama was motivated to solve this problem. The end result was persons unknown buying as much 'about to be banned' weapons and ammo as they could, to the point where even gun shows and private dealers ran out of both. Why does anyone need an AK-47 and 10,000 rounds of ammunition? All rifles need regular maintenance. relatd

Barry @ 71 - is that a "no"? Are you not going to defend your statement? Bob O'H

BA/62

[A]s if guns were not widely available for centuries before mass shootings at schools became a thing. Get a clue Chuck. Availability of guns is not the variable that changed. Focusing on the variable that did not change to explain the change is stupid. Try again.

Actually, the availability of guns--and more importantly, firepower and effectiveness--has changed dramatically "over the centuries" as you put it. Firearms have been around circa 1400 AD. Automatic effective field weapons (gat's, sten's, BAR's, etc.) have only been around since just prior to WW I and high-capacity civilian firearms for only a few years, post-Vietnam. There is a significant difference between a matchlock muzzle loader and an M16 (AR) with a 30-round clip. You actually have to be an excellent marksman to hit something with a muzzle loader. Any clown can pull the trigger of an AR or a Glock, and, sadly, just about any clown can get his hands on one these days. chuckdarwin

Relatd: What was the point of all that? You’ve offered nothing. I don't know what the answer is. I don't live in the US anymore; I'm not going to move back. It's up to the people in the US to solve the problem. But, from an outside of the US perspective: there's a problem you should be able to solve. The rest of the top-tier countries don't have this problem. JVL

JVL, What was the point of all that? You've offered nothing. relatd

What is different about the US when it comes to mass shootings? The US does have a high rate of legal gun ownership but, as was pointed out, many of those gun owners never brandish their weapon in anger thankfully. Many are responsible firearms owners who make sure their weapons are securely locked away when they're not hunting or target shooting. The US is far from the only country where some of its residents feel threatened or at risk. Maybe some countries (like Afghanistan, Iraq, Yemen, etc) are not accurately represented in the statistics but certainly amongst the top-tier, first-world countries the US death rate due to gun fire is chart topping. I heard today, but I have not verified, that the leading cause of death in the US for primary school children in 2019 was gunfire. IF that is true that is sickening. IF that is true. The US is not the only country which, relatively recently, has a strong memory of something like the 'wild west' where the gun was the law. But, again, amongst the first-world countries perhaps it is much younger. (Caveat here, Italy and Germany and some other European countries are fairly 'young' in their current incarnations but effectively have existed as cultural entities for many centuries.) What is it about America that means this keeps happening again and again and again? Every year. Understanding the 'cause' or underlying effects would help solve the problem. I'd hate for schools to become armed fortresses. I'd hate the US to revert to Deadwood. So, what's the solution? Something that everyone can agree on is good. A multi-prong approach would be good. But no one wants it to go on. But it does. JVL

PPPS, I think we need to ponder Plato's ship of state. kairosfocus

A side note. This sort of thing usually attracts agitators who will use this incident to support things other than practical solutions. A 9mm semi-automatic pistol could have been used with the same effect. No one needs an AK-47. relatd

BA, there is a 78 year old well known proper definition tracing to the STG 44, 1944 -- Sturm Gewehr. A rifle with select fire including full automatic, firing an intermediate cartridge to get 300 m of effective, aimed fire range. the intermediate cartridges allow ready control of the weapon while firing on automatic -- they tend to ride up -- and with high capacity to support automatic fire during infantry assaults. A typical context is that one element establishes a fire base which by dominating the enemy pins them down while a maneuver element goes to a flank to take out the position. The current AR 15 -- Armalite Rifle, which has neither a burst mode nor full auto mode, is not an assault rifle [it is marginal for reasonable sized game but is popular given low recoil and 50 years of refinement of an originally flawed design], and there is no coherent and sensible definition of the made up agit prop and lawfare term "assault weapon." Currently, they are trying to get a more powerful round while managing recoil to bridge to 800 m typical, and with good soldiers 1200 m would be feasible. The Russian AK47 -- Automat Kalashnikov -- and derivatives are far closer to the original STG 44, but are designed for much the same purpose. So called "high power" rifles, fire rounds that are designed to reach 800m, but their recoil is such that they are not good for full auto mode, as the US learned with the M14 fiasco. they should have standardised on the .280 British and the EM2 or FAL. The EM2 was a bullpup, wich offers compactness while having a full length barrel. They insisted on the 7.62 x 51 mm and learned a hard lesson. KF PS, the slander agit prop and lawfare games we see are red flags that we are dealing with the fundamentally lawless. PPS, The old SMLE, c 1907 fired a much more powerful round, the .303 Mark VII kairosfocus

BA at 84, We're going to talk about defining 'assault rifle'? For what reason? The first true assault rifle appeared during World War II. It was designed to be most effective - most lethal - at a certain range. It was very effective. It had what is called a banana clip so soldiers in the field could engage multiple targets. I watched the incident at Waco as it happened. Yes, certain people could have been arrested, resulting in less loss of life. I doubt the Branch Davidians had the surveillance and monitoring equipment available to the FBI and military. Why bring up the Founders? They fought with equal weapons against a similarly equipped enemy. And today, what language are we speaking? American? No, it's English. Not the Queen's English but English. I am offering a practical view of a situation where heavily armed survivalists cannot outmaneuver any force sent against them by using firepower alone. Their will to fight for what they see as a good cause means they won't see it coming. A lot of technology has been developed between 1776 and today. relatd

BA: Here is my conclusion. The thing that has changed is that American schools affirmatively teach that human life is not exceptional, far less sacred.

Canadian, Australian, New Zealand, most European and Scandinavian schools are far more secular than those in the US, and have much higher rates of atheism. And yet they do not have anywhere near the number per capita of mass shootings and school shootings that the US does. JHolo

FH, slander. The short term solution on the table is comparable to that of Israel, target hardening through the organised militia set up as civilian marshals in coordination with the Sheriffs.And under UCMJ. As in abuse a weapon or potential weapon like a car or knife for terrorism or mass murder and face a court martial. Play willful lawfare games against the innocent and also face court martial. For that matter, the defamation law in the US needs to be drastically reformed in defencxe of innocent reputation. That you chose to twist that into falsehood is telling. You have no real solution but wish to promote further state control on any convenient incident or excuse. If you are willing to slander at this level of control, what would you support at higher levels were ability to defend freedom removed? The past 120 years is replete with sad cases in point on where that leads. KF kairosfocus

Related, by all means give us a definition of "assault rifle" that does not sweep in every semiautomatic rifle. It would be interesting if you were able to succeed when literally hundreds of bill drafters have failed. Also, your Waco example was ill chosen. In that case the government wound up burning to death dizens of innocent women and children when they could have arrested their target easily at any time when he left the compound, which he regularly did. Finally, the founders faced and defeated the mightiest army in the world in a revolution that was touched off when citizens resisted government agents confiscation of firearms at Lexington and Concord. I am glad theyhad the resolve to do so and did not give in to the counsel of despair such as that you offer. Barry Arrington

I have watched the U.S. deteriorate as a civilized society. Politeness, kindness and general good behavior were the norm. There was no 'perfect' time but I have seen much better. A period of time where being a good citizen meant personal action, and commitment, from individuals for the good of themselves and their neighbors. I liked most of my neighbors. The few oddballs were left alone. That is the kind of decision each of us should make. relatd

Barry, I apologize for not addressing your points, but here are my thoughts: It is possible that easy access to firearms has contributed to mass killings in America. I don't know the answer to that, but I believe we must acknowledge the possibility. However, what is NOT acknowledged by those opposed to private firearm ownership is the check on tyranny it provides. As horrific as mass murders by private individuals are, exponentially more horrific are the mass murders committed by governments throughout history. Looking back at the 20th century alone, there were tens (hundreds?) of millions of individuals murdered by tyrants. The Founders of our nation recognized the danger of allowing tyrants to act unfettered, and they provided a safeguard by enacting the 2nd Amendment. Yes, firearm availability in a free society comes with consequences. Sometimes, those consequences are awful. The freedom to move about comes with consequences--tens of thousands of Americans die in transportation related accidents annually because of that. The freedom of speech can create tension and conflict, which, again, results in death and destruction. However, we live in a nation where costs have been weighed and balanced; there are no utopias, and we must face the risks via a mature, rational decision-making process. I think our Founders chose the wisest course they possibly could, and it would be foolhardy and tragic to abandon those ideals. OldArmy94

Andrew at 60, Brandishing a gun while leaning against an expensive and flashy car, and with scantily clad girls in the background, thugs posing as musicians (yes, it is 'only' an act for some), disrespect women, and the jewelry hanging around their neck exposes their motivation. relatd

In general, I am not against people owning firearms for protection against muggers and burglars. For defending their families from break-ins. And for other legitimate kinds of self-defense. I dislike politics but when President Obama attempted to ban certain types of weapons and ammunition, here is what happened. https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/sites/default/files/docs/wh_now_is_the_time_full.pdf And from gun store owners: https://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=6209255&page=1 relatd

BA at 67, I strongly urge you to investigate the history of mass shootings in the U.S. before making any final judgments. Assault Rifle is the correct term. As a student of military history, I have studied this subject in some depth. For those who don't understand the appeal of assault rifles, or their usefulness, I can point to the various militias and survivalists in the U.S. They firmly believe that the government, or some portion of the U.S. military, will track them down and kill them as 'dangerous elements.' For example, the siege of the compound owned by the Branch Davidians in Axtell, Texas, near Waco. The siege on Waco involved Texas law enforcement, the ATF, FBI and U.S. military. It lasted from February 28 to April 19, 1993. The other appeal of assault rifles, and thousands of rounds of ammunition, is as a toy. You and your friends will find a place where they can enjoy the sounds and train. Because yes, the government is after you and your group. They are willing to accept a certain number of killed and wounded as long as they can fend off the attackers. Unfortunately, the U.S. military will use all of the resources at their disposal, including tear gas and armored vehicles, to dislodge you and your group. relatd

Fred Hickson is still having issues with context. No surprise there. ET

BA

Availability of guns is not the variable that changed.

Other variables have changed and continue to change. Looks like VL quit the discussion rather than deal with the reality of that. Silver Asiatic

VL said:

Arming more and more people is not the solution.

Why not? You might be interested in reading the following before responding: https://davekopel.org/2A/LawRev/Shall%20Issue.pdf

Florida's 1987 reform law set off the modern wave of carry reform that has now been copied in many other states. Among all the states, Florida has collected the most detailed information about the impact of the carry laws. Florida also provides a good test case for the possible negative impacts of carry reform. A high-crime state with heavy urbanization, a massively overcrowded prison system, and an extremely diverse (and often tense) ethnic mix of population, Florida has all the ingredients for concealed carry disaster. ... In 1987, Florida adopted a non-discretionary concealed weapon permit law that guaranteed issuance of a concealed weapon permit to any Floridian who is 21 or older; "Does not suffer from a physical infirmity which prevents the safe handling of a weapon or firearm"; has not been convicted of a felony; has not been convicted of a drug charge in the preceding three years; has not been confined for alcohol problems in the preceding three years; has completed any of a number of firearms safety classes; and has not been committed to a mental hospital in the preceding five years. A 1993 revision allows American citizens who are not Florida residents to obtain a permit that can be used when visiting Florida. ''' From the enactment of the 1987 Florida carry reform until August 31, 1992, the Dade County permit incident tracking project provided the most detailed information available about actual incidents involving carry permit holders. The tracking program had been created as result of intense fears among some police administrators about the consequences of the carry reform law. The tracking program was abandoned in the fall of 1992, because of the rarity of incidents involving carry permit holders, and the greatly diminished concern about the issue on the part of law enforcement administrators. The fact that negative incidents involving permit holders were so rare as to not be worth counting is in itself evidence of the lack of negative effects of carry reform. ... Based on the reports of incidents known to the police, the Florida carry reform law would appear to be a net plus for public safety. The pro-safety result becomes even more lopsided if one believes that the persons who committed crimes with their licensed firearms probably would have committed the same crimes even without a license. ... Accordingly, we now look at the overall trends in Florida murder rates. Of all the states that enacted concealed carry reform, Florida shows the most dramatic change. As the graph details, Florida's murder rate throughout the period 1975-1986 was between 118% and 157% of the murder rate elsewhere in America. After passage of Florida's law, the murder rate began declining, rapidly, dramatically, and consistently, at a time when the rest of the U.S. was experiencing an increase in murder rates. By 1991, Floridians were less likely to be murdered than people elsewhere in America. Only in 1992 did the murder rate percentage stop falling. Even then, this is because the U.S. murder rate fell more than 10% from 1991 to 1992, while the Florida murder rate fell "only" 5%.

It appears to me from the evidence that more people legally owning and carrying guns in public may indeed be part of the answer. William J Murray

"shooter was engaged by police before he entered the school" Wow. If true. Andrew asauber

ET the way politics has become so polarised, another civil War is a possibility. Remote maybe but less remote in this current climate. Fred Hickson

What is being done in Israel? Stealing land? Fred Hickson

If this shooter was engaged by police before he entered the school, then that is the problem. They needed to defend the children with their lives, if need be. They need to prevent him from entering the school. ET

Bob at 65. No. If you think the statement is wrong, then say so and explain why. This should be interesting. Barry Arrington

The USA was born from rebellion. And that rebellion required guns. If the US Government said they were going to take away all of the guns that would start a mass rebellion and millions would die. ET

I proudly confirm I don't have the first clue about fire-arms. And I don't have a clue why some are so in love with them. Maybe we could consider changes to this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protection_of_Lawful_Commerce_in_Arms_Act Fred Hickson

Viola Lee at 40, You should get kicked out of this forum for nonsense like that. Do you think using expletives grants you some power? Some right to use expletives? Not helpful at all. relatd

And Fred Hickson jumps in with a "Why can't we just be more like Canada" argument. Fred, the US is not like Canada. It will never be like Canada. Wishing the US were more like Canada is not helpful in addressing the issues. Do you have anything helpful to add to the conversation. Again, wishful thinking gets us nowhere. BTW, vague platitudes about gun control laws that have already proved to be useless are not helpful. Oh, and your last sentence demonstrates that you do not have the first clue about firearms. "Automatic" vs "Semi-Automatic" is a basic distinction that seems beyond your ken. Also, "assault rifle" is not an actual classification outside of the military (and these rifles were not military weapons). Maybe you should be able to discuss firearms at a Romper Room level before jumping into the debate. Finally, please refer to the OP. Do you agree or disagree with the 7 truths? Barry Arrington

Bob O'H: And when was the last mass shooting in the UK? Dunblane, wasn’t it? So if the purpose is to reduce gun deaths, the laws seem to have worked. Most people in the UK don't see any need for owning a firearm. It is possible but you have to have a good reason plus you have to pass safety checks, prove you have a safe and secure storage place, register with the local police force and other things. But, basically, very few people want to have a gun. England and America share a long standing fairly common cultural background but I think England (and Scotland and Wales) had their 'wild west' period a long time ago. They figured out that while it might still sometimes be necessary to shoot foreigners mostly it's better to find other ways to manage domestic conflicts. (Domestic as in not foreign, not necessarily in the home.) So, yes sometimes some kid beats up and kills an old person for money. Sometimes someone does get a bit loopy and kills a number of people with a gun or several guns but very, very rarely. JVL

Barry @ 61 -

Your responses to 1 and 2, for example, lead directly to the conclusion I drew. Do you think mass confiscation is possible?

Is there any chance you could back up your assertion in 2 first? It might help move this discussion forward if you presented the evidence for what you claim is a truth. Bob O'H

USA with its institutionalised love of guns is an outlier compared to anywhere in the world and some commenters here suggest a solution is more guns? There are many practical steps that could be taken to reduce gun violence. There's no panacea but it would be a start if there could be a sensible dialogue. Gun safety, gun storage, proper training and vetting. Where do unlicensed guns come from? Someone must be manufacturing and selling them. But if gun nuts won't even consider sensible moves to reduce death and injury and there isn't a consensus then nothing will change. And I repeat, why on Earth does anyone need an automatic assault rifle? Fred Hickson

CD, what part of organised civilian marshals under UCMJ and coordinated with the sheriffs who are county level elected senior policing officers constitutes vigilantism? I call you out for slander to set up a convenient distraction. It means you don't have an argument on the merits but feel you must taint the other to get your way, first with rhetoric. Do you not see why we have to draw train of abuses and usurpations inferences? Further to which, what part of harden the likely targets as is seen in Israel is not sound policy? And if school officials refuse vote them out or in extremis cancel their school systems and erect a better one, under local control, s/he who pays the taxes gets the vote to reform or if necessary replace failed government. . KF PS, just remember you are slandering someone who just lost a first cousin to murderous gunmen in a UKOT with gun laws far tighter than any the US is likely to have. PPS, notice 60 miles from an improperly guarded border across which criminal drug cartels are routinely using full automatic weapons. If guns were not in use as I noted cars driven into crowds and bombs would do. kairosfocus

And right on cue, chuckdawrin joins the discussion advancing a "widespread availability of guns is the problem" argument as if guns were not widely available for centuries before mass shootings at schools became a thing. Get a clue Chuck. Availability of guns is not the variable that changed. Focusing on the variable that did not change to explain the change is stupid. Try again. BTW Chuck, do you agree or disagree with points 1 and 2 in the OP? Barry Arrington

Bob at 57. Perhaps it would be helpful if you respond to the 7 points without all of your weasel words. Your responses to 1 and 2, for example, lead directly to the conclusion I drew. Do you think mass confiscation is possible? If so, stand up and say so. If not, say that too. Your failure to speak clearly is not helpful. Barry Arrington

Glorified violence is presented in pop culture. Definitely a big problem. Andrew asauber

Barry Arrington/32 Mr. Arrington appears to endorse KF's "common sense" approach (#30) to dealing with gun violence in the US, which includes vigilantism and imposition of military tribunals. Despite KF's ostensible love affair with the Bill of Rights, he apparently has a dim view of the Sixth Amendment. The United States is awash in guns--estimated at 390+ million civilian guns in circulation. We have enough guns for every man, woman and child in the country with 50 to 60 million guns to spare. 50% of all domestic dispute homicides involve a gun. Between 1985 and 2015, gun violence in PG-13 movies has tripled. (https://news.osu.edu/hollywoods-love-of-guns-increases-the-risk-of-shootings--both-on-and-off-the-set/) We glorify guns and gun use in the USA then express "shock" when a mentally disturbed teen plays out his (it is always a "his") macabre fantasy in a grocery store or grade school. We attribute it to "evil," or "leftists," or "unarmed teachers," or "soft zones." But the sad reality is that easy gun access is common to every one of these incidents. And that is not going away.... chuckdarwin

BA, actually, we care seeing programmed turnabout projection to the other, backed by crooked yardstick commitments. To critique a failed policy is to blame teachers, who are obviously blameless so those who attack teachers can be sidelines; when in fact teachers are not being blamed. Then, BO'H, for one, apparently overlooked my earlier comment:

[30:] – 2 is manifest as rightly a gun confiscation push will be seen as a step to lawless oligarchical tyranny and hopeless subjugation under heirs of Hitler, Stalin, Mao et al. See the estimates of how many would have to be killed in the late sixties – 3 is obvious, are you going to track down 150 years of manufacture, every serious machine shop, every garage with tools, etc, not to mention every place one can get charcoal, sulphur, saltpetre [every dung heap], even sugar or sawdust? – 4 is a consequence of feel good disarmament and is sustained by agit prop

Going further, I have been saying the US has been in a 4th gen civil war since about 2017, one that uses unconventional tactics so it can be manipulated to not be an obvious war. Think about Hitler's push across the 1930's that put Germany in a powerful position when he began to carve up his next victim, Poland. War does not always look like war. I think the pushers do not expect radicals to directly win in the US. They want distraction and polarisation that cripples ability to act geostrategically until it is too late. China is clearly making moves on Taiwan to break out of the island line that holds it back from blue ocean naval thrusts. If the US manages to fatally cripple itself, bonus but not necessary for the big break through. Coming back, there is a way that would work, is working in Israel: harden the targets. Remember the suicide bombing campaign 20+ years ago? It is time to test some yardsticks to see which ones are crooked. KF kairosfocus

Bob thinks the government can confiscate 390 million guns in the US.

No, Barry, I don't, and have never claimed it. Now we've established that I didn't say (or rather write) something screamingly stupid. would you care to defend your claim that "no gun control law can eliminate all or even a small fraction of those guns"? Bob O'H

So I'm trying to find out more background about the shooter, but info is not easy to find. Andrew asauber

VL I’m not sure where the idea of love affair with guns trumps the teachers lives came from What is being said and ignored is gun control does not fix this problem And what is being criticized is the knee jerk reaction of gun control which does nothing to solve the issue of why people are doing these heinous things in the first place Also on human exceptionalism in school. what schools do you go to or taught at, not one in the maricopa school system here even mentions human exceptionalism in normal classes. You have to go to specific classes and even get permission slips/waivers to attend a class about topics like that as they are considered Controversial Evolution is almost immediately taught in every biology class, every student has to take biology, Philosophy and religion are entirely optional unless you are Mormon which you will go to seminary if it is available on the campus It’s been like this since I was in school and I am 44 So screaming bullshit that schools don’t teach human exceptionalism seems more like a knee-jerk reaction of I hate religion and I assume every school teaches human exceptionalism Honestly I think schools need to actually have some type of class to teach humans beings that we are the Apex species because we are the most dangerous species on the planet, can cause the most damage, And we need to be able to take responsibility for ourselves so we can keep our a little blue marble safe because we only have one By the way Jerry Coyne in Chicago often teaches how we are nothing more than meat robots and we are anything but exceptional that is far more common than you give credence to and it’s kind of upsetting AaronS1978

Bob thinks the government can confiscate 390 million guns in the US. When someone says something that screamingly stupid, it is safe to ignore the rest of what they say. Again, the typical progressive. Assume the world is as I wish it to be, not as it actually is. Bob, progressives' mulish insistence on believing the manifestly untrue is why we can't even begin to solve this problem. But by all means, go ahead. Keep on insisting that this or that gun control measure will fix things. Or slap another "gun free zone" sign on the door. And the blood will continue to flow while those failed policies accomplish what they have always accomplished. Nothing. Barry Arrington

"next evil man bent on violence will walk up to the door" Which may be one of their own products. Andrew asauber

Look for progressives to continue to push for schools to maintain their status as soft targets. It is like they believe that if one puts up a sign that says, "Gun Free Zone" at the entrance of a school, the next evil man bent on violence will walk up to the door and see the sign and sigh, say "darn," hang his head and walk away. Such foolishness is astonishing. Barry Arrington

From the OP -

1. There are hundreds of millions of guns in the US.

390m, apparently (give or take quite lot).

2. Even assuming for the sake of argument that it would be a desirable thing to do, no gun control law can eliminate all or even a small fraction of those guns.

You claim this is truth, so what evidence do you have to support it? FWIW, I'm pretty sure this is not true: a law that said that nobody can own a gun would, if enforced diligently enough, eliminate a lot of guns. The problem, I think , is not if it's possible, rather it's whether the costs of doing it are too high, compared to the benefits, and more generally what level of action has an appropriate cost/benefit ratio.

3. Evil men will always be able to get a gun.

I think there is, implicitly, an if they try hard enough on this, isn't there?

4. Schools are soft targets full of defenseless people.

Defenceless seems an exaggeration, especially when this discussion is in the context of an attack where the perpetrator was engaged by the police before he entered the school.

5. We can’t hire enough cops to guard all of those people.

You can if you're willing to put the resources in. So, in contrast to point 3, this is wrong if you're prepared to put the effort in. Thus, this truth is not true.

6. We need to equip and train school staff who are willing to do so to defend themselves and the children in their care.

This is an opinion, not truth. it is one possible approach, but there are others.

7. Don’t tell me it can’t be done. It is being done in Israel.

The first statement isn't a truth. For the second, what evidence do you have? From what I can find online, Israel doesn't arm its teachers: it has security guards at schools, as well as stricter gun control laws. Bob O'H

VL:

blame schools and teachers for what is in fact a totally unjustified love affair with guns

It is as if they literally cannot think. No one disputes that guns were widely available for centuries. As KF points out, there was a time when older students routinely brought them to school for various reasons. But here's VL blaming this new phenomenon on the availability of guns, as if that it the thing that is new when it manifestly is not. It is hard to understand such obstinance in the face of the facts. Barry Arrington

"Andrew at 45. I called it didn’t I." BA, You did. Andrew asauber

I can’t even begin to think about how wrong you are all to be making ideological hay out of such a tragedy

Just the opposite. No one here wants to see anyone die unnecessarily. The hypocrisy (ideological hay) is coming from one side of the political spectrum. jerry

Andrew at 45. I called it didn't I. Barry Arrington

VL "Bullshit!" Oh what a stunning rejoinder filled with eloquence, evidence and logic. I stand corrected. Barry Arrington

"heartlessly blame schools and teachers" VL, I didn't blame teachers. They are often hamstrung by school administration. Andrew VL Running Away = "la la la la I can’t hear you.” asauber

I'm leaving. Your guys ideology is unconscionable. It's one thing to play fun-and-games about philosophical issues and another to heartlessly blame schools and teachers for what is in fact a totally unjustified love affair with guns and ... I can't even begin to think about how wrong you are all to be making ideological hay out of such a tragedy. Viola Lee

Yes, Respect for Life is a significant issue here. Leftists don't get it. Sigh. Andrew asauber

Viola Lee- evolution teaches kids that humans are not exceptional. In Columbine one of the shooters wore a "natural selection" t shirt. And given the mass slaughter wrought by abortions, it is a given that kids notice that, too. Just think if there were 2,000+ dead EACH DAY from school or mass shootings. That's the level of carnage abortion brings to the table. For a society to allow the mass the slaughter of their most vulnerable and then whine about guns, is about as hypocritical as a society can get. ET

VL, first we do not need to go into a spiral to the gutter on language. Second, it was routine for kids to take guns to school or be a part of shooting clubs in schools in the past, try, go hunting before or after school. Third in the further past older kids were to bring guns as part of defence against raids. The systematic devaluation of our intelligent conduct is a fact as is undermining of sanctity of life. Multiply by huge blood guilt. KF kairosfocus

Barry writes, "The thing that has changed is that American schools affirmatively teach that human life is not exceptional, far less sacred." Bullshit! Same to asuaber. Viola Lee

BA, Indeed. Why would this poor kid want to go back to THE SCHOOL, of all the places he could go, and kill everyone there? Obviously had a bad experience. The SCHOOL is on the hook, IMO, because they claim to know what they are doing, and are going to produce good kids. Obviously not. Andrew asauber

People often notice that mass shootings in schools are a new thing that seemed to start with Columbine. What changed? It certainly is not the availability of guns, which have been ubiquitous in the US for centuries. As KF notes, I had occasion to become an expert on Columbine. I viewed all of the videos Eric Harris** made, listened to all of his audiotapes, and read all of the writings he left behind. I deposed his parents and others. Here is my conclusion. The thing that has changed is that American schools affirmatively teach that human life is not exceptional, far less sacred. (See today's EN, which carries a story about a professor pushing this very line). Is it a mere coincidence the killings have increased as life has been devalued? Common sense would suggest it is not. Harris was not stupid. He learned his lesson. His teachers taught him Darwin and Nietzche. On the day of the shootings he wore a shirt with "Natural Selection" emblazoned on it. No, it was not a coincidence. The American education system has sown the wind. We are witnessing it reap the whirlwind. ________ **I focus on Harris. He was the leader. Klebold was a follower. Barry Arrington

Biden’s reaction has nothing to do with preventing deaths. Just as accusations of racism have nothing to do with race. Nor does any of the other talking points have anything to do with fairness for anyone. Nor does claims of climate extremes have any logic in preventing harm from future climate changes. Nor did public health controls do anything to stop the virus from doing what all viruses do. They are blatant attempts using fear to foster emotional responses to gain control. It’s always from one side of the political spectrum. The interesting thing is how stupid the educated are that support these programs. Don’t they know that their current ability to express opinions will be suppressed too?          It’s only a matter of time before the          Montagnards kill the Girondists. jerry

Asauber, that raises, school control, given that parents raising unwelcome issues in board meetings have been subjected to police state actions and abuse of terrorism law. H'mm abuse of terrorism law should be treated as a UCMJ violation with shot at dawn as a possible outcome too if bad enough; the old hebraic principle was, if you used knowing false witness to subject someone to death or the like, then you suffered the fate you intended for the other. Play lawfare, get court martialed in response under UCMJ. KF PS, what of the Schaeffer-Koop domino effect, has the blood guilt of 63 million undermined sanctity of life and contributed to nihilism? What about what Plato had to say in The Laws, Bk X? kairosfocus

KF, I know right? There are a lot of questions here that Gun Control doesn't address. Gun Control is not going to fix bullying in schools, either. Leftists are running most of these schools, and they have pretty much destroyed education in America. Andrew asauber

ASauber, what about looney control too, as in properly supervised institutionalisation and control to protect the public even if we cannot treat the disease? And, what can be done to treat.? is ritalin a factor in this case? KF kairosfocus

Brain-Dead Zombie Leftists yell Gun Control, like it's the only thing you can do as a reaction. Andrew asauber

KF has fleshed out and expanded on the basic theme. Progressives talk about "common sense" gun control all the time (it is like a mantra). Well, KF has laid plenty of common sense on ya. What are you going to do with it? I suspect the progressives will run around with their hands on their ears yelling "la la la la I can't hear you." Leftist failure in this area is of a piece with leftist failures everywhere. They approach problems assuming the world is as they wish it were, not as it manifestly is. Barry Arrington

FH, almost certainly, the shooter did not have, selective fire, intermediate round, high capacity magazine military rifles built around statistics that battlefield shooting is rarely beyond 300 m.In the US M16 family, 5.56 is the standard. He likely had a semi automatic rifle, perhaps with high capacity magazine and the similar .223 intermediate round. If he had an AK, .30 cal x 39 mm. Texas is next door to Mexico with a border largely undefended by policy -- oh building a wall is racist etc -- where a civil war rages. Genuine assault rifles are accessible through the same means by which crack and opioids are. Notice, a border patrol agent quickly stopped the massacre by shooting the murderer, that is highlighting the significance of a good guy with a gun close by. KF PS, there is a reason for the first 10 amendments to the US constitution, note especially 1, 2, 4. kairosfocus

H'mm, late to the exchange. I was not monitoring news but found this just now: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10850557/Active-shooter-loose-Texas-elementary-school-campus-plunged-lockdown.html

At least NINETEEN primary school children shot dead by 'bullied' high school student, 18, who posted photos of rifles on Instagram and went on the rampage 'after an argument with his grandmother about failing to graduate' Nineteen pupils aged between seven and 11 are dead after another mass shooting at an elementary school Xavier Lopez, 10, Uziyah Garcia, nine, Makenna Elrod, 10, Amerie Jo Garcia, 10, Eliahana Torres, 10, and Ellie, whose age and surname were not immediately available, among the dead at Robb Elementary School, Texas Eva Mireles, 44, and Irma Garcia, both teachers, were killed in attack that began around 11.30am Tuesday Salvador Ramos, 18, identified as gunman who shot his grandmother before driving to the school and opening fire, before he was shot dead by a Border Patrol agent a short time later Joe Biden condemned the killings and opened gun control debate, urging voters to 'turn this pain into action' By CHRIS PLEASANCE and GINA MARTINEZ and HARRIET ALEXANDER FOR DAILYMAIL.COM PUBLISHED: 18:44 BST, 24 May 2022 | UPDATED: 09:07 BST, 25 May 2022

Sheer nihilism, and obviously if no guns were to hand he could have rammed a car into a crowd as happened last Christmas, maybe even loading it with ANFO and setting it off as a ghastly finale. He could even have got or made a machete and sharpened it "back and belly" turning it into a sword with a terrible false edge for the back hand stroke. There was a horrific attack on a village in Jamaica in 1959 by a crazed man who was caught, tried and hanged in short order. Of course, hardly anyone in a deep rural village would have had a gun. So, instantly we separate mass murder from the controlling surveillance state and linked firearms confiscation pushes. We need to see what can be done to address the nihilism and to catch the violent deranged ahead of time. As for ghoulish cultural marxist pols waiting to jump on convenient cases and incidents to push their lawless oligarchy, surveillance state and reduction of the public to defenceless, manipulated sheep waiting to be shorn or taken to be served as lunch at will, their selection of convenient cases from pandemics to massacres is all we need to note. So, what can be done? Longtime denizens of UD know my position. 1: Every able bodied person of sound mind is duty bound to uphold and as necessary defend the civil peace of justice, not just armed police and soldiery. Call this the unorganised militia principle. 2: In an age of mass terror and mass murdering nihilists and mad men, artificially disarmed places are soft targets waiting for vultures to pounce, so job 1 is to arm and discipline a civilian marshal corps, under LOCAL control but facing military discipline. 3: Under this, murderous or potentially murderous misuse of weapons, tools, objects or implements is violation of the uniform code of MILITARY justice and faces court martial, complete with shot at dawn. Trial, before officers of the militia/military, chaired by a duly sworn in trained lawyer. 4: Each institutional site should organise a local militia, properly armed and with an oversight watch. Similarly, each public event or space. Integrated with local police especially the Shire Reff, i.e. Sheriff. 5: BA is right on each of his points, and is a world expert on the paradigm massacre, Columbine:

- 1 is notorious and pols playing usurpation games make it even more obvious - 2 is manifest as rightly a gun confiscation push will be seen as a step to lawless oligarchical tyranny and hopeless subjugation under heirs of Hitler, Stalin, Mao et al. See the estimates of how many would have to be killed in the late sixties - 3 is obvious, are you going to track down 150 years of manufacture, every serious machine shop, every garage with tools, etc, not to mention every place one can get charcoal, sulphur, saltpetre [every dung heap], even sugar or sawdust? - 4 is a consequence of feel good disarmament and is sustained by agit prop - 5 is manifest, we need the militia principle - 6 says, form the militia unit and train and arm it - 7 is so, long ago we had a famous picture of a class trip with a supervisory adult with a slung M1 Carbine

6: Now, we need to update arming. For rapid response, 9 mm parabellum pistols, compact or extended to sizes that enhance accuracy. 7: We note, the US Military has gone with the 6.8 x 51 mm cartridge with a stainless head to take 80 to 120 kpsi giving 3000 fps from a 13 + inch barrel or thereabouts. The issue is range and more effective ballistic protection. This is in longer barrels and with smart scopes easy at 800m and feasible up to 1200m. But it carries a significant kick though extension of artillery style mechanisms can tame it. Hot loads like this are also barrel eaters, maybe 15k rounds life, and one needs regular practice. Expensive. 8: I think, pro backup and perhaps, key access points, with armour piercing rounds. Shooting that in crowded spaces with thin walls is a nightmare. But that is where things are being pushed. 9: Consider, armour control, so it is hard to get the sort of armour that would force use of such without very high weight penalty. 10: Despite US opinion, I think the bullpup makes a lot of sense and point to the Tavor. I think, still, 6.5 mm Grendel makes sense as basic load, better sense to me than the .277 fury loaded to 80 kpsi. That's 800 - 1,000 m, and the Creedmoor would give extra long range coverage. I do not favour 5.56 mm. 11: Layered defence. KF kairosfocus

So far almost everyone has ignored my post and simply stuck their opinions about gun control in the combox. VL gave some vague "we oughta do something" platitudes without actually countering any of my points. Come on people. This is life and death we are talking about here. Address the points raised. Perhaps the most vital point is 1. We have hundreds of millions of guns. It does no good for anyone to say "why can't we be more like Canada?" We are not like Canada. We will never be like Canada. Take your head out of the sand and deal with facts as they are. Accept that we will never eliminate access to guns. It is not possible even if it were desirable. And having accepted that stark ineluctable reality, address the remaining points. Wake up. Wishful thinking is not the solution. Barry Arrington

BobRyan -

The UK has very strict gun laws making it almost impossible to legally own firearms. That does not stop firearms from getting to the people illegally.

And when was the last mass shooting in the UK? Dunblane, wasn't it? So if the purpose is to reduce gun deaths, the laws seem to have worked. Strict gun laws won't stop everyone from owning a gun, but if they stops some, and thus reduces gun deaths significantly, then they will have worked. Bob O'H

Violent psychopaths commit violence. They tell people exactly what they are going to do and follow through. Every mass shooter is a violent psychopath. Sane people do not commit mass murder. It is long past times to change the laws to make it easier to institutionalize them before they can carry through with violent action. BobRyan

I'll probably vote with my feet. The way politics is so polarised in the US, the best way for both gun enthusiasts and people like me who'd prefer not to have one nor be killed by one is to live in a state with the preferred legislation regarding firearms ownership and control. Fred Hickson

Well Fred just vote joe and dem during the midterms, things are moving alone swimmingly under their current guidance don’t you think It’s sooooooo odd that suddenly we get this, monkey poxes, and a leaked overturning of Roe vs Wade just months before the midterm just like Covid and Russia right before the election…… AaronS1978

The Buffalo shooter was taken in for a mental health check and let go. It is extremely difficult to institutionalize anyone against their will. People who shoot up schools or markets are not mentally stable. People who do that are psychopaths. "No matter where one stands on the long-debated question of whether “nothing works” when it comes to criminal rehabilitation,7 there is no doubt that the psychopath has grossly distorted the inquiry. Psychopaths are not only much more likely than non-psychopaths to be imprisoned for committing violent crimes,8 they are also more likely to finagle an early release using the deceptive skills that are part of their pathologic toolbox,9 and then, once released, are much more likely to recidivate, and to recidivate violently.10" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4059069/ BobRyan

Just thinking a little more. There are many other countries where gun ownership is very low. What are they missing? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country Fred Hickson

Just thinking that an eighteen year old kid can easily buy something over the counter that enables him to rapidly and efficiently kill twenty people is maybe too much. Fred Hickson

So Fred I was wrong but as you being right solve the actual issue, I miss read a news post again, now did that gun make this kid just fly off the rocker and shoot all those other kids? Have you ever dealt with the border or been to the Arizona Sonoran border My brother and several other buddies of mine have, they’re part of border patrol The people they deal with have real assault weapons, none are owned legally and the drug cartels don’t care to follow your rules Do blanket gun restrictions help with that Do blanket gun restrictions help with the Unabomber and other people like him Do blanket go to restrictions help with Terrorists How about violent criminals You’re being right on one thing and me being wrong doesn’t solve the initial problem You won’t be able to get all the weapons away from everybody that’s so unrealistic, solve why they’re doing it and you’ll do everybody a favor https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1505606/Kongsberg-attack-Norway-bow-and-arrow-man-dead-killed-terror-latest-news-updates-police AaronS1978

Oh I stand mistaken How convenient two AR-15 the bane of liberals everywhere……….. I read earlier that it was a handgun now it’s turned into two AR-15 I guess there’s a lot of stories going around but my point still stands and again with an interesting choice given the political craziness over that particular gun AaronS1978

Most of what the media and politicians refer to as assault rifles are .22, which is one of the smallest calibers there is. They are good for small game hunting, since larger calibers will not leave much in the way of game. The UK has very strict gun laws making it almost impossible to legally own firearms. That does not stop firearms from getting to the people illegally. "Pistols, revolvers and shotguns are the firearms most frequently used illegally in the UK. Whilst fully-automatic weapon seizures are very rare, we have seen a gradual increase and are working to prevent the supply into the UK. A substantial number of shootings involve firearms that have been illegally converted, modified or reactivated. This includes blank firearms that have been modified to fire." https://www.nationalcrimeagency.gov.uk/what-we-do/crime-threats/firearms BobRyan

I see I was wrong. The shooter bought, not one, but two assault rifles from a store on his eighteenth birthday. Fred Hickson

The current Incident the shooter did NOT acquire the gun through legal means like most perps

You sure? I read he bought the assault rifle (who needs an assault rifle?) on his eighteenth birthday. Fred Hickson

Actually in most states you have to have a gun permit, pass a background check, and proof of ID It’s not easy and normally expensive The current Incident the shooter did NOT acquire the gun through legal means like most perps The only people you punish with your mode of thought are the people that follow the rules in the first place If you want to be helpful instead of blaming the tool and using this as an excuse to take the tool away how about we figure out what motivated the individual to do this in the the first place No one wakes up and goes “ya know I feel like shooting up a class room of kids and getting my self killed, if only I had a gun…. Whoa a gun I’m gonna kill me some kids because now it’s easy cause I gots the guns” They planned something like this and it was on their minds for months, the gun didn’t motivate them, they were already motivated to get the gun or what ever tool they needed to get the job done. (a hatchet is pretty effective at killing defenseless kids locked in a class room so is easy to make mustard gas) If you want this type of horror to end figure out what motivates it in the first place and prevent that Nobody says the brushes made the artist paint a picture, it was a motivated artist not a brush motivating the artist Lastly it strikes me as oddly convenient things these happen to the most vulnerable and most shocking to do it to. It’s almost staged but I really trust our government now…….. AaronS1978

JVL People steal cars everyday. They are not concerned about laws preventing them from doing so, sometimes at gunpoint during carjackings. There are laws on the books preventing people with felonies from owning firearms who get them illegally on the streets. BobRyan

BobRyan: People intent on committing harm, will commit harm. Of course, but how easy do you want it to be for them to kill tens of people? A person with a knife is easier to stop than someone with an assault rifle. Speaking of vehicles . . . you need to have a license and insurance to use a vehicle, why not have that for guns? The responsible owners (like my relatives) will not be stopped from owning their weapons. JVL

The point is that shootings still happen, regardless of the laws in place. It is illegal to purposely run people over with vehicles, yet it happens. It is illegal to use a knife with intent to murder, yet it happens. A lot of things are illegal that happen every day. People intent on committing harm, will commit harm. BobRyan

Look here, BobRyan https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Germany/United-States/Crime/Violent-crime Fred Hickson

Germany has some of the strictest gun laws in Europe, yet shootings still happen. Just because something is not legal to get, does not mean people cannot get what they want. Fentanyl is not legal, yet people OD every day from using it. Alcohol was banned, which was a boon for organized crime. https://abcnews.go.com/International/dead-shooting-german-city-hanau/story?id=69082981 BobRyan

BR: We need to go back to being able to put people back in institution

Most western nations no longer routinely institutionalize those with mental health issues. They treat them. How do you explain the disproportionate incidents of gun violence in the US? What is the biggest difference between the US and other countries? JHolo

Just to put it in perspective. The US has had 288 school shootings in 2022 so far. The next highest is Mexico, with 8. This is not mass shootings, just the illegal discharge of firearms on school property. And there are some who think the solution is to have more guns in schools. JHolo

It is not firearms that are the problem. The vast majority of legal gun owners do not commit crimes. It is a mental health problem that is being ignored. We need to go back to being able to put people back in institutions. BobRyan

A bigger question. Why don’t we see school shootings in other western nations to the same degree we do in the US? Rather that deluding ourselves that the US is the best country in the world and that others should use the US as the model, why doesn’t the US suck on the humble stick and start learning from other countries. For example. The neighbours to the north, even though greatly influenced by US media and culture, do not have the number of school shootings the US does. They don’t lock down the schools, don’t have metal detectors, don’t have armed guards or armed teachers. JHolo

Most is not all. How did he gain entry? And getting a gun in Texas is too easy. Shame on Texas for being a State of dumbasses. Apologies, but their gun laws are from the 18th century. ET

ET, most schools do have locked entries and security cameras now, and most bigger schools have security personnel. Viola Lee

We can make schools hardened targets, though. For a start make them into gated communities with security cameras and locked entry. ET

Viola Lee:

Re 3, there are certainly things that could be done to make it much, much harder for evil men to get a gun.

Such as?

Re 2, it wouldn’t be a matter of “eliminating” the guns that already exist. It would be a matter of passing laws to make the purchase of new guns much more regulated, including licensing and insurance regulations similar to what we have for vehicles.

That only works for people trying to get a gun legally. ET

The solution is to accept these occasional mass shootings as unfortunate collateral damage from the still-allowed freedom for the populace to bear arms. Of course, these occasional mass shootings will continue to get more and more frequent until enough people will finally demand the government "to do something" as these shootings are ultimately promoted by the Controllers who think the solution is to have people corralled and treated as livestock. The Controllers do have a point though as at least 80% of the population clearly do not mind being treated as livestock. I am just curious what's the plan for the remaining 20%. Eugene

2 and 3 are loaded statement in that they skip over reasonable things that could be done, and would, in my opinion, be desirable things to do. Re 3, there are certainly things that could be done to make it much, much harder for evil men to get a gun. Re 2, it wouldn't be a matter of "eliminating" the guns that already exist. It would be a matter of passing laws to make the purchase of new guns much more regulated, including licensing and insurance regulations similar to what we have for vehicles. But it's interesting that Barry ends his post with "fight me". Attitudes like that are one of the reasons why we can't make any progress on this problem. I'll also point out that it is not just schools where we have these mass murder problems: it's churches, and grocery stores and music concerts and family gatherings and many other places where people congregate. Arming more and more people is not the solution. Viola Lee