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Second Thoughts on the Second Law: Extending an Olive Branch

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Recently on niwrad’s thread we have had a lively discussion about the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics and its potential application to the question of a materialistic abiogenesis scenario. kairosfocus has followed up with another useful post.

In the present thread I provide a high level view of some of the key issues and misconceptions surrounding the 2nd Law arguments. Please note, I do so not as any kind of official spokesperson for intelligent design, but based on my experience debating this issue and my individual thoughts on the matter. My intelligent-design-inclined colleagues may disagree with my assessment, but hopefully I have provided some food for thought and, perhaps, an avenue for more productive discourse in the future.

Discussions on this topic almost invariably generate more heat than light, but there are a few useful nuggets that have come out of the discussions that deserve to be brought to the forefront. I hope I am not stepping on niwrad’s or kairosfocus’ toes by writing this post, but I wanted to share a few thoughts in a somewhat more formal manner than I can with a comment in another thread.

Specifically, I want to lay out what the 2nd Law argument potentially can, and cannot, bring to the table in the context of the abiogenesis question. The overall goal is to help avoid side roads and irrelevancies in future discussions so that the primary issues can be focused on. As a result, I will approach this by outlining a few myths that abiogenesis proponents need to be cognizant of, as well as a few myths that abiogenesis skeptics need to be aware of.

I would note at the outset that much of the disconnect arises due to a failure to understand, or to charitably attempt to understand, the arguments being put forth by the other side. In the hopes that all of us might benefit from a deep breath and a careful outline of some of the issues, here is my initial attempt at a few myths to be aware of – and to avoid – in future discussions and debates.

Myths for Abiogenesis Proponents to Be Aware Of

Myth #1: Abiogenesis skeptics believe that, in the history of life on Earth, there has actually been a violation of the 2nd Law.

Those who entertain this myth tend to heap copious amounts of ridicule on abiogenesis skeptics, noting how incredibly foolish the skeptics are to think the 2nd Law could be violated. After all, everyone knows this is not possible, so clearly the skeptics have no idea what they are talking about and can be ignored. This might sound good on the surface, but it arises from a complete misunderstanding of the skeptics’ argument. Don’t fall prey to this myth. Don’t claim that abiogenesis skeptics think the 2nd Law has been violated. Don’t lead others astray by insinuating as much.

Myth #2: The 2nd Law does not present a problem for abiogenesis because Earth is an “open” system and receives energy from the Sun.

This myth is likewise based on a misunderstanding of the skeptics’ arguments. If skeptics were wondering where most of the energy on the Earth comes from, then pointing out that Earth is an “open” system and receives energy from the Sun would be relevant. But that is not the focus of the skeptics’ question. Nor is the skeptics’ question about where energy is from generally or whether enough energy is available. Don’t use the common ‘Earth-is-an-open-system’ refrain to try to explain why the skepticism about abiogenesis is silly, or to insinuate that skeptics are foolish because they aren’t aware of energy transfer or energy availability or similar such matters.

Myth #3: Abiogenesis skeptics believe that local decreases in entropy are not possible.

This myth is closely related to #2, and is often implicitly linked to #2, but it deserves its own paragraph. Those who entertain this myth point out – quite rightly so – that the 2nd Law does not necessarily prohibit entropy levels from changing in particular locations or under particular circumstances. They often also point to a generally-held concept that changes in entropy in one location can be “compensated” for by counterbalancing changes elsewhere. Unfortunately, again, these arguments are based on a misunderstanding of the skeptics’ argument in the first place. Abiogenesis skeptics do not question whether entropy can change in specific locations under specific circumstances. And the fact that an entropy change in location A may be “compensated” for by a change in some location B is entirely irrelevant to the question at issue.

Myth #4: The 2nd Law does not pose any practical constraints on abiogenesis because it does not absolutely prohibit abiogenesis.

Those who entertain this myth make much of the fact that living systems exist, ergo, the 2nd Law does not prohibit such systems from existing. They may carry on about how the 2nd Law does not absolutely, as a matter of sheer logic, prohibit the spontaneous formation of far-from-equilibrium systems. This myth is, again, borne of a misunderstanding of the skeptics’ argument, although in this case, as discussed below, it is sometimes due to the skeptics’ poor efforts to make clear their argument. In either case, it simply does not follow that because the 2nd Law does not prohibit such living systems from existing, that it does not prohibit them from initially forming on their own from inanimate matter under natural conditions. Such formation has definitely never been demonstrated. Additionally, it certainly does not follow that because an absolute prohibition against naturalistic abiogenesis does not exist that the 2nd Law does not pose any serious or significant constraints on such an event.

Myth #5: Concerns about the 2nd Law as it relates to abiogenesis are just the musings of ignorant design proponents or “creationists,” are old hat, and have been fully addressed many times over.

Intelligent design proponents and creationists of various stripes did not invent this issue. The fact of significant thermodynamic constraints on abiogenesis is a well-known and ongoing issue among origin of life researchers. It remains a significant hurdle and has most definitely not been solved, despite decades of attempts to do so.

Myth #6: The 2nd Law can only be applied or fruitfully studied in its initial, most basic formulation relating to thermal energy.

Again, abiogenesis skeptics are not the first to raise the idea of applying the 2nd Law – or at the very least the concepts of the 2nd Law as they relate to entropy – to other areas, including informational entropy and organizational entropy. These are intriguing areas that merit careful consideration, not handwaving dismissals by people who are unable to see beyond the initial formulation. These areas are clearly applicable to the problems of creating an information-rich, functionally-organized living system. (Furthermore, as noted above, origin of life researchers also recognize that the 2nd Law, even in its basic formulation relating to thermal energy, raises issues in the origin of life context that must be dealt with.)

Myth #7: Order equals organization.

Those who fall into this trap have a fundamental misunderstanding of the critical difference between mere order and functional organization. They often bring up examples of crystals or snowflakes or other “orderly” configurations in nature as examples of spontaneous (and thermodynamically preferred) configurations. Unfortunately, none of those examples have anything to do with what we are dealing with in living systems or in abiogenesis.

There are no doubt a few additional myths that could be added, but if abiogenesis proponents as an initial step would refrain from falling into the above traps it would go a long way toward making the discussions more fruitful.

—–

As mentioned, there is room for improvement on all sides. So here are the myths abiogenesis skeptics should avoid.

Myths for Abiogenesis Skeptics to Be Aware Of

Myth #1: The entropy of designed things is always lower than the entropy of non-designed things.

This myth rests on the idea that because designed systems typically exhibit some kind of functional state or can perform work, etc., that they are always lower in entropy than more uniformly-distributed states. It is true that living organisms constitute far-from-equilibrium systems and it is true that a necessary condition for work is typically the existence of a gradient or “potential,” rather than a uniformly-distributed state. It might even be true that designed systems often exhibit a lower level of entropy than non-designed things. However, it is not necessarily the case that they always do. Indeed, on the informational side in perhaps the easiest case we have to work with, that of our own language, we recognize that while meaningful language patterns tend to cluster toward a particular end of the entropy spectrum, there are nonsense patterns both lower and higher on the spectrum.

Myth #2: The measure of entropy is a sufficient, or even key, indicator of design.

This myth is related to the prior myth, but deserves its own paragraph. Those who hold to this myth take the trajectory of the constraints of the 2nd Law and apply them a bridge too far. Whether thermal, organizational, or informational, the measure of entropy in a system is not the ultimate arbiter of whether something is designed. The measure of entropy is essentially a statistical measure, similar at some level (if I dare mention another poorly-understood issue) to the statistical measure of the Shannon information metric. As such, the entropy measure can operate as something of a surrogate for the complexity side of the design inference. But it does not, in and of itself, address the specification aspect, nor yield an unambiguous signal of design. It is doubtful that it will ever be possible to prove design through a definite, unassailable calculation of entropy. Thus, while an entropy analysis can be an initial step in assessing the probability of a system arising through natural processes, it is not the only, nor even the most important, characteristic that needs to be considered to infer design.

Myth #3: The 2nd Law prohibits abiogenesis.

This myth is the reciprocal of Myth #4 for the abiogenesis proponents. Just as abiogenesis proponents sometimes mistakenly equate the lack of an absolute prohibition with the lack of significant practical constraints, abiogenesis skeptics sometimes mistakenly equate the existence of significant practical constraints with an absolute prohibition. It is true that origin of life researchers acknowledge the constraints imposed by the 2nd Law and that a resolution is not yet at hand. It is likely even the case that if we look at the specific molecular reactions required to form a simple living organism that pure thermodynamic considerations (setting aside organizational and informational aspects for a moment) will be sufficient to conclude that abiogenesis is effectively impossible. But the fact remains that it is, conceivably, at least logically possible.

Many abiogenesis skeptics will resonate with the following assessment from Robert Gange in Origins and Destiny, as early as 1986:

The likelihood of life having occurred through a chemical accident is, for all intents and purposes, zero. That does not mean that faith in a miraculous accident will not continue. But it does mean that those who believe it do so because they are philosophically committed to the notion that all that exists is matter and its motion. In other words, they do so for reasons of philosophy and not science.

However, even as Gange acknowledges, we are dealing with “likelihood” not absolute logical prohibition.

Summary

As I have indicated on previous occasions, I do not view arguments based on the 2nd Law as the best arguments to make against evolution generally, or against abiogenesis specifically.

Let me be clear: the 2nd Law does impose harsh, unforgiving, inescapable parameters on any abiogenesis scenario. The constraints of the 2nd Law are acknowledged by origin of life researchers and should be strongly pointed out where applicable. However, there are reasons to be cautious with the 2nd Law arguments, including:

(a) Arguments based on the 2nd Law tend to quickly become bogged down in definitional battles and general misunderstandings, including the myths outlined above. Often, so much energy is spent trying to correct the myths that little substantive progress results.

(b) The really interesting aspect of designed systems is not, in most cases, their thermal properties, but the organizational and informational aspects. Although there are good reasons to examine these aspects in the context of “entropy,” it is not formally necessary to do so, nor is it perhaps the most helpful and straight-forward way to do so.

(c) Ultimately, 2nd Law arguments eventually collapse to a probability argument. This occurs for two reasons: (1) abiogenesis proponents, despite the lack of any empirical evidence for abiogenesis and strong reasons – including thermodynamic ones – to doubt the abiogenesis story, can always repose faith in a lucky chance, a cosmic accident, a highly-unusual coincidence to explain the origin of far-from-equilibrium living systems; and (2) the design inference itself depends in part on a probability analysis (coupled with a specification). As a result, despite whatever watertight 2nd Law argument an abiogenesis skeptic may put forward, it eventually comes down to a question of the probabilities and whether the abiogenesis story is realistic given the available probabilistic resources.

In summary, the constraints imposed by the 2nd Law should definitely be on the list – the exceedingly long list – of problems with a purely naturalistic origin of life story.

However, I would probably not lead with it.

Comments
CJYman: I fail to see your point as it relates to my 2 scenarios and further clarification and resulting point relating to 2LOT. We responded to your statement: "How do some systems travel in an extended direction far from equilibrium at seemingly insurmountable odds while still following 2LOT." You seemed confused, so we provided a simple example. A snowstorm is a far from equilibrium system. The simple explanation is uneven heating of the Earth by the Sun. CJYman: I ask for a proximate cause that can increases organization, other than heat flow, resulting in abiogenesis and evolution Your question was "How do some systems travel in an extended direction far from equilibrium at seemingly insurmountable odds while still following 2LOT." We might have answered with uneven heating by the Sun causing convection. CJYman: Organization requires organization. Organization can occur spontaneously, such as a snow storm. CJYman: Are you saying that the far from equilibrium organization of abiogenesis and evolution are just like your snowstorm example? They are alike in that they are both examples of 'far from equilibrium systems'. Can't get much farther from equilibrium than lightning. CJYman: Is that really the only reason you have for not betting on the sun whipping up a doghouse. Really? Yes. Evidence is determinative — for scientific conclusions, at least. CJYman: Uhuh … and … how is this supposed to provide the 2LOT compensation [if indeed any is required] to generate a replicating robot with the necessary hardware and software flexibility to evolve? The 2nd law of thermodynamics requires a differential. That's all it requires. Sunlight and the deep of space provide more than sufficient available energy for work, though we understand that nowadays humans sometimes use nuclear forces to power their robot manufacturing processes. CJYman: Also, just to be sure I am following your response correctly, are you saying you agree that some type of compensation is required as per 2LOT and that the compensation comes in the form of another previously existing system of far from equilibrium, information processing organization? You can't decrease entropy in one place without exporting entropy. It has nothing to do with "information processing". CJYman: 1. What is the compensation that removes the apparent 2LOT violation Available energy for work. CJYman: 2. Is the problem not a 2LOT problem since 2LOT has nothing to do with equilibrium which in turn has nothing to do with disorganization of microstates and their relation to macrostates? Any theory of any physical process, whether biological or chemical or mechanical, has to be consistent with the 2nd law of thermodynamics. However, being consistent with the 2nd law of thermodynamics is not an explanation of biology. CJYman: 3. Is there a third option I’m missing, where it is indeed a 2LOT problem but compensation is not required or conversely heat flow as compensation is indeed all that is required? Being consistent with the 2nd law of thermodynamics just means that there is an overall increase in thermodynamic entropy. However, that is hardly all that is required to explain the origin of life, if that is your question.Zachriel
March 19, 2015
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Piotr, you state:
"A pocket calculator crunches numbers much better than either of us, though it has no mind to speak of."
You do not seem to realize just how big of a problem math is for any reductive materialistic explanation. Simply put, material particles follow rules, they do not make them up. In other more technical words, minds invent mathematical axioms, material particles obey them. Disagree? Then falsify Godel's incompleteness theorem:
Kurt Gödel - Incompleteness Theorem – video https://vimeo.com/92387853 Kurt Gödel and Alan Turing - Incompleteness Theorem and Human Intuition - video https://vimeo.com/92387854 "Either mathematics is too big for the human mind or the human mind is more than a machine" Kurt Gödel The Limits Of Reason – Gregory Chaitin – 2006 Excerpt: an infinite number of true mathematical theorems exist that cannot be proved from any finite system of axioms.,,, http://www.umcs.maine.edu/~chaitin/sciamer3.pdf The Law of Physicodynamic Incompleteness - David L. Abel Excerpt: "If decision-node programming selections are made randomly or by law rather than with purposeful intent, no non-trivial (sophisticated) function will spontaneously arise." If only one exception to this null hypothesis were published, the hypothesis would be falsified. Falsification would require an experiment devoid of behind-the-scenes steering. Any artificial selection hidden in the experimental design would disqualify the experimental falsification. After ten years of continual republication of the null hypothesis with appeals for falsification, no falsification has been provided. The time has come to extend this null hypothesis into a formal scientific prediction: "No non trivial algorithmic/computational utility will ever arise from chance and/or necessity alone." https://www.academia.edu/9957206/The_Law_of_Physicodynamic_Incompleteness_Scirus_Topic_Page_ The danger of artificial stupidity - Saturday, 28 February 2015 "Computers lack mathematical insight: in his book The Emperor’s New Mind, the Oxford mathematical physicist Sir Roger Penrose deployed Gödel’s first incompleteness theorem to argue that, in general, the way mathematicians provide their “unassailable demonstrations” of the truth of certain mathematical assertions is fundamentally non-algorithmic and non-computational" http://machineslikeus.com/news/danger-artificial-stupidity Algorithmic Information Theory, Free Will and the Turing Test - Douglas S. Robertson Excerpt: For example, the famous “Turing test” for artificial intelligence could be defeated by simply asking for a new axiom in mathematics. Human mathematicians are able to create axioms, but a computer program cannot do this without violating information conservation. Creating new axioms and free will are shown to be different aspects of the same phenomena: the creation of new information. http://cires.colorado.edu/~doug/philosophy/info8.pdf BRUCE GORDON: Hawking’s irrational arguments – October 2010 Excerpt: ,,,The physical universe is causally incomplete and therefore neither self-originating nor self-sustaining. The world of space, time, matter and energy is dependent on a reality that transcends space, time, matter and energy. This transcendent reality cannot merely be a Platonic realm of mathematical descriptions, for such things are causally inert abstract entities that do not affect the material world,,, Rather, the transcendent reality on which our universe depends must be something that can exhibit agency – a mind that can choose among the infinite variety of mathematical descriptions and bring into existence a reality that corresponds to a consistent subset of them. This is what “breathes fire into the equations and makes a universe for them to describe.” Anything else invokes random miracles as an explanatory principle and spells the end of scientific rationality.,,, Universes do not “spontaneously create” on the basis of abstract mathematical descriptions, nor does the fantasy of a limitless multiverse trump the explanatory power of transcendent intelligent design. What Mr. Hawking’s contrary assertions show is that mathematical savants can sometimes be metaphysical simpletons. Caveat emptor. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/oct/1/hawking-irrational-arguments/
supplemental quote:
"The impossibility of conceiving that this grand and wondrous universe, with our conscious selves, arose through chance, seems to me the chief argument for the existence of God." Charles Darwin to Doedes, N. D. - Letter - 2 Apr 1873 http://www.darwinproject.ac.uk/entry-8837
bornagain77
March 19, 2015
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BA, Chadwick argues that a 101-AA long protein won't self-assemble from a mixture of amino acids dissolved in water. I agree, but since I don't think anyone thinks abiogenesis worked that way, it's a straw man argument. What is there to refute if it's not even wrong but beside the point?Piotr
March 19, 2015
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Piotr, do you know that you really can be a condescending little prick sometimes? I bet you have heard that before! Chadwick's paper is heavily referenced to empirical evidence and his point stands whether or not he miscounted the zeros he used to emphasize the point he was making. To attack his claim you would have to refute the experimental evidence that he referenced in his paper, not the number of zeros he miscounted! For you to think that you have refuted his point by pointing out mistakes in how he wrote his paper is a joke. I guess in your twisted view of science, English teachers should be the final arbitrators of the peer review process since mistakes in counting zeros, spelling, and grammar can refute empirical evidence? Moreover, I catch you making outright false claims, in regards to actual empirical evidence, all the time to defend your atheistic worldview, but you never admit you are wrong. At least I have never seen you humble yourself when you were shown to be wrong. You just go on to the next lie that you will tell. IMHO, You are an absolute disgrace to science! Other than that, I'm sure your mother probably loves you! Maybe! :)bornagain77
March 19, 2015
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DNA_Jock #175, Andy C. McIntosh' paper "Information and Thermodynamics in Living Systems" may be of interest, topics like free energy and spontaneous and non-spontaneous natural molecule formations are being adressed.Box
March 19, 2015
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DNA_Jock, Wallace, co-discover of natural selection, who had far more field work than Darwin did, is correct that 'The difference between man and the other animals is unbridgeable'. Disagree? Then you have some pretty heavy hitters to contend with in order to try to make your case that it is 'just a matter of degree not of kind'. Here is a fairly recent paper on the subject:
Leading Evolutionary Scientists Admit We Have No Evolutionary Explanation of Human Language - December 19, 2014 Excerpt: Understanding the evolution of language requires evidence regarding origins and processes that led to change. In the last 40 years, there has been an explosion of research on this problem as well as a sense that considerable progress has been made. We argue instead that the richness of ideas is accompanied by a poverty of evidence, with essentially no explanation of how and why our linguistic computations and representations evolved.,,, (Marc Hauser, Charles Yang, Robert Berwick, Ian Tattersall, Michael J. Ryan, Jeffrey Watumull, Noam Chomsky and Richard C. Lewontin, "The mystery of language evolution," Frontiers in Psychology, Vol 5:401 (May 7, 2014).) It's difficult to imagine much stronger words from a more prestigious collection of experts. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/12/leading_evoluti092141.html The mystery of language evolution - May 7, 2014 Excerpt: Paleontology and archaeology,,, Although technologies became more complex over the history of the genus Homo (Tattersall, 2012), indications of modern-style iconic and representational activities (Henshilwood et al., 2002, 2004) begin only significantly after the first anatomically recognizable H. sapiens appears at a little under 200 thousand years ago,, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4019876/
Moreover, the three Rs, reading, writing, and arithmetic, i.e. the unique ability to process information inherent to man, are the very first things to be taught to children when they enter elementary school. And yet it is this information processing, i.e. reading, writing, and arithmetic that is found to be foundational to life:
Signature in the Cell by Stephen Meyer - video clip https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVkdQhNdzHU
As well, as if that was not 'spooky enough' information, not material, is found to be foundational to physical reality:
"it from bit” Every “it”— every particle, every field of force, even the space-time continuum itself derives its function, its meaning, its very existence entirely—even if in some contexts indirectly—from the apparatus-elicited answers to yes-or-no questions, binary choices, bits. “It from bit” symbolizes the idea that every item of the physical world has a bottom—a very deep bottom, in most instances, an immaterial source and explanation, that which we call reality arises in the last analysis from the posing of yes-no questions and the registering of equipment—evoked responses, in short all matter and all things physical are information-theoretic in origin and this is a participatory universe." – Princeton University physicist John Wheeler (1911–2008) (Wheeler, John A. (1990), “Information, physics, quantum: The search for links”, in W. Zurek, Complexity, Entropy, and the Physics of Information (Redwood City, California: Addison-Wesley)) Why the Quantum? It from Bit? A Participatory Universe? Excerpt: In conclusion, it may very well be said that information is the irreducible kernel from which everything else flows. Thence the question why nature appears quantized is simply a consequence of the fact that information itself is quantized by necessity. It might even be fair to observe that the concept that information is fundamental is very old knowledge of humanity, witness for example the beginning of gospel according to John: "In the beginning was the Word." Anton Zeilinger - a leading expert in quantum teleportation: http://www.metanexus.net/archive/ultimate_reality/zeilinger.pdf Quantum physics just got less complicated - Dec. 19, 2014 Excerpt: Patrick Coles, Jedrzej Kaniewski, and Stephanie Wehner,,, found that 'wave-particle duality' is simply the quantum 'uncertainty principle' in disguise, reducing two mysteries to one.,,, "The connection between uncertainty and wave-particle duality comes out very naturally when you consider them as questions about what information you can gain about a system. Our result highlights the power of thinking about physics from the perspective of information,",,, http://phys.org/news/2014-12-quantum-physics-complicated.html
Thus, since atheists have never demonstrated the origination of functional information by material processes (Behe, Sanford, Abel), and yet humans create functional information at will, then the fact that both life and the universe are 'information theoretic' in there basis is certainly powerful evidence that we are indeed 'made in the image of God': Verses and Music:
Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground." John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made. In Him was life, and that life was the Light of men. Casting Crowns - The Word Is Alive https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9itgOBAxSc
Of supplemental note: there is a video on Wallace, co-discover of natural selection, that you may find interesting:
Darwin's Heretic: Alfred R. Wallace - Did the Co-Founder of Evolution Embrace Intelligent Design? - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxvAVln6HLI Rescuing Alfred Russel Wallace from his (Darwinist) Rescuers - May 22, 2012 Excerpt: By 1913, Wallace declared himself unapologetically for theism: http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/05/rescuing_alfred059961.html
bornagain77
March 19, 2015
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Yes, BA, it's much better now. Of course it wasn't entirely your fault, since you copied that stuff from Arthur V. Chadwick, Ph.D., Professor of Geology and Biology, Southwestern Adventist College, Keene, TX. Fine, then, they got a science department down there in Johnson County where professors throw about big numbers but can't actually count. Just be careful when you cite them again. A pocket calculator crunches numbers much better than either of us, though it has no mind to speak of. I didn't actually bother to count all your noughts, but I have this habit of spotting little things like "there are 3n+2 zeros, whereas 2+2+9=13, and 13 mod 3 = 1: this can't be right". If you don't respect numbers, you shouldn't use them to make a point. You try to impress your readers with all these big exponents and long strings of digits, but you are no good at maths and you can't really like it (or you wouldn't be blind to rather obvious details). Probability theory is one of the trickiest fields of mathematics, full of counterintuitive results; even great mathematicians may get lost in it (see Paul Erdös and the Monty Hall problem). And you think you can prove something just by showing us 1 followed by many zeros (who cares how many if there are lotsa lotsa them?). Let me assure you that if the probability of something is lower than 1/N, where N is the number of atoms in the Universe to the power of 1000, it still doesn't mean that the "something" can't happen. In the little problem I offered to KF as an exercise, after one million years our test organisms will produce descendants which are 10^1000000 times more improbable than generation zero.* And this is what real living things are like. -- * What, by the way, is the corresponding decrease in entropy per organism per year?Piotr
March 19, 2015
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ba77 quotes Wallace's 'proof' for the existence of the soul:
Nothing in evolution can account for the soul of man. The difference between man and the other animals is unbridgeable. Mathematics is alone sufficient to prove in man the possession of a faculty unexistent in other creatures. Then you have music and the artistic faculty. No, the soul was a separate creation
I hope Wallace is enjoying hanging out with those macaques (Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2014 May 6; 111(18): 6822–6827.) He should probably give the bonobos a wide berth, though. Ugh. Seriously, though, all these "bright-line" distinctions between humans and other animals keep turning out, upon closer inspection, to be matters of degree. We are better at math than other primates. Well, most of us are ;)DNA_Jock
March 19, 2015
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Piotr, you are right, I think I was 7 zeros short. Thanks! :) Does this look better?
(10, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000)
Just curious Piotr, how do you as a materialist, who believes your mind is illusory, i.e. 'emergent' from a material basis, account for your ability to do math so well? Wallace said the unique human ability to do math was proof for the soul.
"Nothing in evolution can account for the soul of man. The difference between man and the other animals is unbridgeable. Mathematics is alone sufficient to prove in man the possession of a faculty unexistent in other creatures. Then you have music and the artistic faculty. No, the soul was a separate creation." Alfred Russell Wallace, New Thoughts on Evolution, 1910
Piotr, do you think your ability to do math so well is just a 'happy coincidence' or do you think it is proof of the soul? If not why not, and can you offer empirical proof?
Mathematics and Physics – A Happy Coincidence? – William Lane Craig – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BF25AA4dgGg 1. If God did not exist the applicability of mathematics would be a happy coincidence. 2. The applicability of mathematics is not a happy coincidence. 3. Therefore, God exists.
Berlinski comments here:
An Interview with David Berlinski - Jonathan Witt Berlinski: There is no argument against religion that is not also an argument against mathematics. Mathematicians are capable of grasping a world of objects that lies beyond space and time …. Interviewer:… Come again(?) … Berlinski: No need to come again: I got to where I was going the first time. The number four, after all, did not come into existence at a particular time, and it is not going to go out of existence at another time. It is neither here nor there. Nonetheless we are in some sense able to grasp the number by a faculty of our minds. Mathematical intuition is utterly mysterious. So for that matter is the fact that mathematical objects such as a Lie Group or a differentiable manifold have the power to interact with elementary particles or accelerating forces. But these are precisely the claims that theologians have always made as well – that human beings are capable by an exercise of their devotional abilities to come to some understanding of the deity; and the deity, although beyond space and time, is capable of interacting with material objects. http://tofspot.blogspot.com/2013/10/found-upon-web-and-reprinted-here.html
Wigner here:
The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics in the Natural Sciences - Eugene Wigner - 1960 Excerpt: ,,certainly it is hard to believe that our reasoning power was brought, by Darwin's process of natural selection, to the perfection which it seems to possess.,,, It is difficult to avoid the impression that a miracle confronts us here, quite comparable in its striking nature to the miracle that the human mind can string a thousand arguments together without getting itself into contradictions, or to the two miracles of the existence of laws of nature and of the human mind's capacity to divine them.,,, The miracle of the appropriateness of the language of mathematics for the formulation of the laws of physics is a wonderful gift which we neither understand nor deserve. We should be grateful for it and hope that it will remain valid in future research and that it will extend, for better or for worse, to our pleasure, even though perhaps also to our bafflement, to wide branches of learning. http://www.dartmouth.edu/~matc/MathDrama/reading/Wigner.html
bornagain77
March 19, 2015
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Budget season . . .kairosfocus
March 19, 2015
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10^229 universes (100, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000)
BA, you can't count universes. You are off by many orders of magnitude. One can see at a glance that the numbers can't tally (229/3 gives 1, not 2, as the remainder).Piotr
March 18, 2015
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It is very nice to see CJYman posting here again.Upright BiPed
March 18, 2015
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Excerpt:: Problem 2: Forming Polymers Requires Dehydration Synthesis: Chemically speaking, however, the last place you’d want to link amino acids into chains would be a vast water-based environment like the “primordial soup” or underwater near a hydrothermal vent. As the National Academy of Sciences acknowledges, “Two amino acids do not spontaneously join in water. Rather, the opposite reaction is thermodynamically favored.”11 In other words, water breaks down protein chains into amino acids (or other constituents), making it very difficult to produce proteins (or other polymers) in the primordial soup. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/12/top_five_probl067431.html [11.] Committee on the Limits of Organic Life in Planetary Systems, Committee on the Origins and Evolution of Life, National Research Council, The Limits of Organic Life in Planetary Systems, p. 60 (Washington D.C.: National Academy Press, 2007). The Limits of Organic Life in Planetary Systems - 2007 2.2.2 The Reactivity of Water, 15 The reactivity of water creates problems as well. In particular, many molecules are unstable in water. This generalization applies to many molecules important in terran metabolism, catalysis, and genetics. In some cases, molecules simply decompose through reaction in water, and require another round of metabolism for replacement. For genetic molecules, damage by water must be repaired.,,, etc.. etc.. http://www.ecoversity.org/archives/LOLPS.pdf Abiogenic Origin of Life: A Theory in Crisis – Arthur V. Chadwick, Ph.D. Excerpt: The synthesis of proteins and nucleic acids from small molecule precursors represents one of the most difficult challenges to the model of prebiological evolution. There are many different problems confronted by any proposal. Polymerization is a reaction in which water is a product. Thus it will only be favored in the absence of water. The presence of precursors in an ocean of water favors depolymerization of any molecules that might be formed. Careful experiments done in an aqueous solution with very high concentrations of amino acids demonstrate the impossibility of significant polymerization in this environment. A thermodynamic analysis of a mixture of protein and amino acids in an ocean containing a 1 molar solution of each amino acid (100,000,000 times higher concentration than we inferred to be present in the prebiological ocean) indicates the concentration of a protein containing just 100 peptide bonds (101 amino acids) at equilibrium would be 10^-338 molar. Just to make this number meaningful, our universe may have a volume somewhere in the neighborhood of 10^85 liters. At 10^-338 molar, we would need an ocean with a volume equal to 10^229 universes (100, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000) just to find a single molecule of any protein with 100 peptide bonds. So we must look elsewhere for a mechanism to produce polymers. It will not happen in the ocean. http://origins.swau.edu/papers/life/chadwick/default.htmlbornagain77
March 18, 2015
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Yes, Box, your wikipedia quote is correct (such a useful source, but much disparaged hereabouts), so JonM's first two sentences are correct. It's the words I highlighted that are wrong.DNA_Jock
March 18, 2015
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podcast - Examining the Evidence for Evolution, pt. 2 http://intelligentdesign.podomatic.com/entry/2015-03-18T17_49_50-07_00 Casey Luskin gave on evolution and intelligent design, in which he presents some of the biggest problems with the case for Darwinian evolution. In this segment, Casey discusses Darwinism and the origin of life.bornagain77
March 18, 2015
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First, Kairosfocus and Eric Anderson thank you for the kind words. I really do find the lack of charitable reading and lack of requests for clarification quite disappointing. I guess that's just what IDiots can come to expect. I just hope us IDiots continually try our best not to return the favor ... too much ... Zachriel @ 115 responds to CJYman @ 73 Zachriel: "Snowstorms are far from equilibrium. Are you confused about snow?" Childish rhetoric aside, which I will admit I will finally be employing further on ... The 'imbalance in energy, causing energy flow' or 'the earth is an open system and the sun provides all the energy we need' compensation argument that has been flogged to death works perfectly fine in this case, both theoretically and experimentally. I fail to see your point as it relates to my 2 scenarios and further clarification and resulting point relating to 2LOT. Oh, and your response to my question seems to indicate that you think snowstorms are formed at seeming insurmountable odds. I'm not quite sure I follow. Could you please clarify. Zachriel: "Evolution." I ask for a proximate cause that can increases organization, other than heat flow, resulting in abiogenesis and evolution (both of which I concur, at the very least from a logical perspective, had to have occured) and I get 'evolution' as an answer -- evolution is a proximate cause for evolution. OK, whatever floats your boat but your sense of humor is lost on me. I am actually serious about asking these questions. Zachriel: "What loop? It appears to be a progressive change, not a loop." I see what you are saying. The loop is that organization in this case requires even more complex, far from equilibrium organization. Organization requires organization. Now I'll try my best to understand your point. Are you saying that the far from equilibrium organization of abiogenesis and evolution are just like your snowstorm example? If so, I'll need you to clarify that point since it is obviously absurd. Or did you somehow completely miss the point? No offense, as it could be completely my fault for not spelling it out in crayons. Zachriel: "Because the evidence indicates that humans built the doghouse, and that humans and dogs evolved from common ancestors." Is that really the only reason you have for not betting on the sun whipping up a doghouse. Really? Think deep ... could there also be other factors at play here ... maybe something relating to micro vs macro states, equilibrium and 2LOT? Yes? ... no? .... maybe? ... Do I really need to bring in the infamous 'doghouse on Mars' example. Yes, I know it is normally a camera ... whatever ... Zachriel: " The plant absorbs sunlight using this energy to generate sugars and then proteins. From that it produces seeds." Uhuh ... and ... how is this supposed to provide the 2LOT compensation [if indeed any is required] to generate a replicating robot with the necessary hardware and software flexibility to evolve? Also, just to be sure I am following your response correctly, are you saying you agree that some type of compensation is required as per 2LOT and that the compensation comes in the form of another previously existing system of far from equilibrium, information processing organization? So, again, which is it: 1. What is the compensation that removes the apparent 2LOT violation (or paradox if you prefer)? ...or... 2. Is the problem not a 2LOT problem since 2LOT has nothing to do with equilibrium which in turn has nothing to do with disorganization of microstates and their relation to macrostates? ...or... 3. Is there a third option I'm missing, where it is indeed a 2LOT problem but compensation is not required or conversely heat flow as compensation is indeed all that is required?CJYman
March 18, 2015
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DNA_Jock, although there are issues you are glossing over to try to make it seem OOL is plausible in water, let's just cut to the chase and see why all materialistic OOL scenarios will always fail. But before I do that, I would like to point out that all this talk of prebiotic chemistry on the primordial earth is purely imaginary. You have no empirical evidence whatsoever that a prebiotic soup ever existed on the primordial earth so as to have a basis for your imaginary conjectures in the first place:
For one thing there is no evidence of a 'prebiotic world': Dr. Hugh Ross - Origin Of Life Paradox (No prebiotic chemical signatures)- video (40:10 minute mark) https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=UPvO2EkiLls#t=2410 "We get that evidence from looking at carbon 12 to carbon 13 analysis. And it tells us that in Earth's oldest (sedimentary) rock, which dates at 3.80 billion years ago, we find an abundance for the carbon signature of living systems. Namely, that life prefers carbon 12. And so if you see a higher ratio of carbon 12 to carbon 13 that means that carbon has been processed by life. And it is that kind of evidence that tells us that life has been abundant on earth as far back as 3.80 billion years ago (when water was first present on earth).,,, And that same carbon 12 to carbon 13 analysis tells us that planet earth, over it entire 4.5662 billion year history has never had prebiotics. Prebiotics would have a higher ratio of carbon 13 to carbon 12. All the carbonaceous material, we see in the entire geological record of the earth, has the signature of being post-biotic not pre-biotic. Which means planet earth never had a primordial soup. And the origin of life on earth took place in a geological instant" (as soon as it was possible for life to exist on earth). - Hugh Ross - quote as stated in preceding video Isotopic Evidence For Life Immediately Following Late Bombardment - Graph http://cdn.physorg.com/newman/gfx/news/hires/2014/oldestbitofc.jpg
But the reason why all OOL scenarios will always fail is that even if the entire universe had been nothing but prebiotic soup in it, unguided processes would still not be able to solve the insurmountable 'information problem:
Book Review - Meyer, Stephen C. Signature in the Cell. New York: HarperCollins, 2009. Excerpt: As early as the 1960s, those who approached the problem of the origin of life from the standpoint of information theory and combinatorics observed that something was terribly amiss. Even if you grant the most generous assumptions: that every elementary particle in the observable universe is a chemical laboratory randomly splicing amino acids into proteins every Planck time for the entire history of the universe, there is a vanishingly small probability that even a single functionally folded protein of 150 amino acids would have been created. Now of course, elementary particles aren't chemical laboratories, nor does peptide synthesis take place where most of the baryonic mass of the universe resides: in stars or interstellar and intergalactic clouds. If you look at the chemistry, it gets even worse—almost indescribably so: the precursor molecules of many of these macromolecular structures cannot form under the same prebiotic conditions—they must be catalysed by enzymes created only by preexisting living cells, and the reactions required to assemble them into the molecules of biology will only go when mediated by other enzymes, assembled in the cell by precisely specified information in the genome. So, it comes down to this: Where did that information come from? The simplest known free living organism (although you may quibble about this, given that it's a parasite) has a genome of 582,970 base pairs, or about one megabit (assuming two bits of information for each nucleotide, of which there are four possibilities). Now, if you go back to the universe of elementary particle Planck time chemical labs and work the numbers, you find that in the finite time our universe has existed, you could have produced about 500 bits of structured, functional information by random search. Yet here we have a minimal information string which is (if you understand combinatorics) so indescribably improbable to have originated by chance that adjectives fail. http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/reading_list/indices/book_726.html The Humpty-Dumpty Effect: A Revolutionary Paper with Far-Reaching Implications - Paul Nelson - October 23, 2012 Excerpt: Tompa and Rose calculate the "total number of possible distinct patterns of interactions," using yeast, a unicellular eukaryote, as their model system; this "total number" is the size of the space that must be searched. With approximately 4,500 proteins in yeast, the interactome search space "is on the order of 10^7200, an unimaginably large number," they write -- but "more realistic" estimates, they continue, are "yet more complicated." Proteins present many possible surfaces for chemical interaction. "In all," argue Tompa and Rose, "an average protein would have approximately 3540 distinguishable interfaces," and if one uses this number for the interactome space calculation, the result is 10 followed by the exponent 7.9 x 10^10.,,, the numbers preclude formation of a functional interactome (of 'simple' life) by trial and error,, within any meaningful span of time. This numerical exercise...is tantamount to a proof that the cell does not organize by random collisions of its interacting constituents. (i.e. that life did not arise, nor operate, by chance!) http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/10/a_revolutionary065521.html
Since information is in fact not reducible to a material basis, (in fact quantum teleportation shows us that material reduces to an information basis), then all this 'just so story' telling by materialists about the origin of life is severely misguided in regards to the actual science at hand. Disagree? Then falsify this null hypothesis:
The Law of Physicodynamic Incompleteness - David L. Abel Excerpt: "If decision-node programming selections are made randomly or by law rather than with purposeful intent, no non-trivial (sophisticated) function will spontaneously arise." If only one exception to this null hypothesis were published, the hypothesis would be falsified. Falsification would require an experiment devoid of behind-the-scenes steering. Any artificial selection hidden in the experimental design would disqualify the experimental falsification. After ten years of continual republication of the null hypothesis with appeals for falsification, no falsification has been provided. The time has come to extend this null hypothesis into a formal scientific prediction: "No non trivial algorithmic/computational utility will ever arise from chance and/or necessity alone." https://www.academia.edu/9957206/The_Law_of_Physicodynamic_Incompleteness_Scirus_Topic_Page_
That's the threshold!
"In so far as a scientific statement speaks about reality, it must be falsifiable; and in so far as it is not falsifiable, it does not speak about reality." Karl Popper - The Two Fundamental Problems of the Theory of Knowledge (2014 edition), Routledge http://izquotes.com/quote/147518
Verse:
John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.
bornagain77
March 18, 2015
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DNA_Jock, Not the final word to be sure, but Wiki seems to support Jonathan M's comments.
"The formation of the peptide bond consumes energy, which, in living systems, is derived from ATP." & "A peptide bond can be broken by hydrolysis (the adding of water). In the presence of water they will break down and release 8–16 kilojoule/mol (2–4 kcal/mol) [9] of free energy. This process is extremely slow (up to 1000 years). In living organisms, the process is catalyzed by enzymes."
Box
March 18, 2015
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Box asks: "Which comments by Jonathan M would that be?"
1. Peptide bond formation is an endothermic reaction. This means that the reaction requires the absorption of energy: It does not take place spontaneously. 2. Peptide bond formation is a condensation reaction. It hence involves the net removal of a water molecule. So not only can this reaction not happen spontaneously in an aqueous medium, but, in fact, the presence of water inhibits the reaction.
Errors highlighted.DNA_Jock
March 18, 2015
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DNA_Jock: (...) rendering Jonathan M’s comments (quoted by ba77 @153) incorrect…
Which comments by Jonathan M would that be?Box
March 18, 2015
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Eric A writes:
Either way, what is the practical result of those chemical interactions? Certainly not anything helpful for abiogenesis
Interesting. You don't know what the practical result of those interactions might be, yet you are certain that they wouldn't help abiogenesis. You'd be wrong, of course: Amino acids lining up at an air-water interface changes both the thermodynamics and the kinetics of peptide bond formation, rendering Jonathan M's comments (quoted by ba77 @153) incorrect... Water-clay interfaces are even more interesting. But why bother learning anything when you already know the answer?DNA_Jock
March 18, 2015
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Missy @ 165 No problems, I was not offended. CheersCross
March 18, 2015
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«Again, you do not understand the design argument. You are just repeating the tired “god-of-the-gaps” kids-on-a-playground-level accusation that seems to get trotted out anytime a materialist is pushed into an evidentiary corner.» - i think it was you that did not understand my comment. I was getting ahead of that kind of god of the gaps response, once I've seen creationists doing it. But I admit I may be a little biased.Missy
March 18, 2015
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«Can I say that EA was right, you are assuming my view based on some caricature.» - If you read closely, you're going to understand that I wasn't assuming you make god of the gaps arguments or view things like that. I was just making a sarcastic comment regarding the views of many creationists. It didn't intended to be offensive to you, though. - That for the first comment (replying to you)Missy
March 18, 2015
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Missy @ many Since I am in a different time zone, things have certainly moved on here. I think EA, KF, BA and Andre have addressed your response. Can I say that EA was right, you are assuming my view based on some caricature. I do believe God created this universe and all in it but not because of ID or some God of the Gaps argument. I have other reasons for my faith as I am sure some others here would also. None of this relates to ID as ID does not require a faith in God, although some have this. I am interested in ID because I believe it best fits the facts. I see no plausible OOL scenario from materialist only causes but, unlike many, I am willing to follow where the science leads, are you? I am not afraid that science will prove life arose by purely material means (and thus GOD is unnecessary), are you afraid that life may need an Intelligent Designer to arise? My hope is that science (which I do not hate, as the caricature is often presented) will one day be honest enough to follow where the evidence leads with no insistence on material only causes like the early pioneers of science were prepared to do. CheersCross
March 18, 2015
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timothya @88:
It appears that KeithS is now banned from contributing to this website. Can anyone explain why?
I don't know anything about that. keith s has been harping on, completely unhelpfully, on a couple of one-note-johnny points, in spite of corrections and clear explanations of why his approach and attitude are unhelpful on this issue. That said, I would not favor banning someone for that. I don't know if he has indeed been banned or even how to ban someone. Ironically, I was banned from UD for a year or two a while back. :) But I've never bothered to find out why, and have just assumed it was some kind of glitch with my IP address.Eric Anderson
March 18, 2015
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REC @149:
“What happens to amino acids in water?” Some tend to self-organize. This organization is largely driven by entropy.
Self-organize into what? Somehow it sounds more impressive when we say "self-organize" than saying that a chemical reaction takes place. :) Either way, what is the practical result of those chemical interactions? Certainly not anything helpful for abiogenesis, not to mention the long list of additional problems with the hypothesis.Eric Anderson
March 18, 2015
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Missy @144:
I think accepting the possibility is just a humble proposition and for accepting the POSSIBILITY we do not need much more. Accepting it as likely or the best hypothesis, that’s another story, but I addressed why I do accept it as such (I mean, I guess when you say “by chance”, you’re inaccurately referring to life arising by natural processes) and I also pointed out that a good explanation for the origin of life would be some stepwise process and referenced Piotr’s comment and example.
Thanks. I think you are quite right that the question is whether it is likely or a good explanation. I'm not personally too impressed with sheer "possibility" -- after all, it is possible, as a matter of sheer logic, that the Sun will cease shining tomorrow at noon. Likely? Not at all. Sheer possibility may be a fun thought exercise for a brainstorming session, but it is not of any real use from a scientific standpoint. So we have to look not at what could occur as a matter of sheer possibility, but what has a real chance of occurring, given the evidence and the laws of the universe as we know them. Again, as I noted, Piotr has not provided any kind of explanation. We are all familiar with those kinds of "explanations" for the origin of life. Everyone who studies OOL is familiar with them, including many more details than Piotr knows, no doubt. And on close inspection the explanations don't hold water.Eric Anderson
March 18, 2015
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EA,
Piotr didn’t “explain” anything. He just regurgitated the theory: molecules come together in some unknown, unspecified way to form a larger molecule; those come together in some unknown, unspecified way to form a larger structure; unspecified things keep coming together in unspecified ways until, one glorious day, we have life. It isn’t an explanation. It doesn’t even pass the laugh test. It is more of a gullibility test.
It looks more like a straw man to me. I am not qualified to discuss the OOL scenarios in any detail, but once we have a viable replication process going (in a prebiotic environment it wouldn't have had to be anything fancy), the emergence and fine-tuning of new "functional" features (visible to selection and promoted by it) is not only possible but pretty well inevitable, no matter how "improbable" they seem to be. Thermodynamic considerations are important in understanding why (as Boltzmann probably saw, judging from his lectures).Piotr
March 18, 2015
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Zachriel @123:
We have overwhelming evidence that all life evolved from a primitive unicellular common ancestor. Given that, and given evidence that molecules can self-replicate, abiogenesis has considerable evidence.
Many of us are remarkably underwhelmed by the evidence relating to your first sentence, but that is a topic for another day. As to the second sentence, I'm not sure you are reading the literature carefully. Can you point to such a thing as a self-replicating molecule? The Szostak lab you keep referring us to has not shown any such thing, to my knowledge. In addition, abiogenesis requires much more than a self-replicating molecule. Probably a dozen requirements, essentially every one of which is currently a show-stopper for a naturalistic origin of life scenario. So, it is definitely not the case that abiogenesis has considerable evidence. For those who can see the evidence for what it is, without the blinders of materialistic philosophy, it would be difficult to find any concept in modern science that has less evidence going for it.Eric Anderson
March 18, 2015
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