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Second Thoughts on the Second Law: Extending an Olive Branch

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Recently on niwrad’s thread we have had a lively discussion about the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics and its potential application to the question of a materialistic abiogenesis scenario. kairosfocus has followed up with another useful post.

In the present thread I provide a high level view of some of the key issues and misconceptions surrounding the 2nd Law arguments. Please note, I do so not as any kind of official spokesperson for intelligent design, but based on my experience debating this issue and my individual thoughts on the matter. My intelligent-design-inclined colleagues may disagree with my assessment, but hopefully I have provided some food for thought and, perhaps, an avenue for more productive discourse in the future.

Discussions on this topic almost invariably generate more heat than light, but there are a few useful nuggets that have come out of the discussions that deserve to be brought to the forefront. I hope I am not stepping on niwrad’s or kairosfocus’ toes by writing this post, but I wanted to share a few thoughts in a somewhat more formal manner than I can with a comment in another thread.

Specifically, I want to lay out what the 2nd Law argument potentially can, and cannot, bring to the table in the context of the abiogenesis question. The overall goal is to help avoid side roads and irrelevancies in future discussions so that the primary issues can be focused on. As a result, I will approach this by outlining a few myths that abiogenesis proponents need to be cognizant of, as well as a few myths that abiogenesis skeptics need to be aware of.

I would note at the outset that much of the disconnect arises due to a failure to understand, or to charitably attempt to understand, the arguments being put forth by the other side. In the hopes that all of us might benefit from a deep breath and a careful outline of some of the issues, here is my initial attempt at a few myths to be aware of – and to avoid – in future discussions and debates.

Myths for Abiogenesis Proponents to Be Aware Of

Myth #1: Abiogenesis skeptics believe that, in the history of life on Earth, there has actually been a violation of the 2nd Law.

Those who entertain this myth tend to heap copious amounts of ridicule on abiogenesis skeptics, noting how incredibly foolish the skeptics are to think the 2nd Law could be violated. After all, everyone knows this is not possible, so clearly the skeptics have no idea what they are talking about and can be ignored. This might sound good on the surface, but it arises from a complete misunderstanding of the skeptics’ argument. Don’t fall prey to this myth. Don’t claim that abiogenesis skeptics think the 2nd Law has been violated. Don’t lead others astray by insinuating as much.

Myth #2: The 2nd Law does not present a problem for abiogenesis because Earth is an “open” system and receives energy from the Sun.

This myth is likewise based on a misunderstanding of the skeptics’ arguments. If skeptics were wondering where most of the energy on the Earth comes from, then pointing out that Earth is an “open” system and receives energy from the Sun would be relevant. But that is not the focus of the skeptics’ question. Nor is the skeptics’ question about where energy is from generally or whether enough energy is available. Don’t use the common ‘Earth-is-an-open-system’ refrain to try to explain why the skepticism about abiogenesis is silly, or to insinuate that skeptics are foolish because they aren’t aware of energy transfer or energy availability or similar such matters.

Myth #3: Abiogenesis skeptics believe that local decreases in entropy are not possible.

This myth is closely related to #2, and is often implicitly linked to #2, but it deserves its own paragraph. Those who entertain this myth point out – quite rightly so – that the 2nd Law does not necessarily prohibit entropy levels from changing in particular locations or under particular circumstances. They often also point to a generally-held concept that changes in entropy in one location can be “compensated” for by counterbalancing changes elsewhere. Unfortunately, again, these arguments are based on a misunderstanding of the skeptics’ argument in the first place. Abiogenesis skeptics do not question whether entropy can change in specific locations under specific circumstances. And the fact that an entropy change in location A may be “compensated” for by a change in some location B is entirely irrelevant to the question at issue.

Myth #4: The 2nd Law does not pose any practical constraints on abiogenesis because it does not absolutely prohibit abiogenesis.

Those who entertain this myth make much of the fact that living systems exist, ergo, the 2nd Law does not prohibit such systems from existing. They may carry on about how the 2nd Law does not absolutely, as a matter of sheer logic, prohibit the spontaneous formation of far-from-equilibrium systems. This myth is, again, borne of a misunderstanding of the skeptics’ argument, although in this case, as discussed below, it is sometimes due to the skeptics’ poor efforts to make clear their argument. In either case, it simply does not follow that because the 2nd Law does not prohibit such living systems from existing, that it does not prohibit them from initially forming on their own from inanimate matter under natural conditions. Such formation has definitely never been demonstrated. Additionally, it certainly does not follow that because an absolute prohibition against naturalistic abiogenesis does not exist that the 2nd Law does not pose any serious or significant constraints on such an event.

Myth #5: Concerns about the 2nd Law as it relates to abiogenesis are just the musings of ignorant design proponents or “creationists,” are old hat, and have been fully addressed many times over.

Intelligent design proponents and creationists of various stripes did not invent this issue. The fact of significant thermodynamic constraints on abiogenesis is a well-known and ongoing issue among origin of life researchers. It remains a significant hurdle and has most definitely not been solved, despite decades of attempts to do so.

Myth #6: The 2nd Law can only be applied or fruitfully studied in its initial, most basic formulation relating to thermal energy.

Again, abiogenesis skeptics are not the first to raise the idea of applying the 2nd Law – or at the very least the concepts of the 2nd Law as they relate to entropy – to other areas, including informational entropy and organizational entropy. These are intriguing areas that merit careful consideration, not handwaving dismissals by people who are unable to see beyond the initial formulation. These areas are clearly applicable to the problems of creating an information-rich, functionally-organized living system. (Furthermore, as noted above, origin of life researchers also recognize that the 2nd Law, even in its basic formulation relating to thermal energy, raises issues in the origin of life context that must be dealt with.)

Myth #7: Order equals organization.

Those who fall into this trap have a fundamental misunderstanding of the critical difference between mere order and functional organization. They often bring up examples of crystals or snowflakes or other “orderly” configurations in nature as examples of spontaneous (and thermodynamically preferred) configurations. Unfortunately, none of those examples have anything to do with what we are dealing with in living systems or in abiogenesis.

There are no doubt a few additional myths that could be added, but if abiogenesis proponents as an initial step would refrain from falling into the above traps it would go a long way toward making the discussions more fruitful.

—–

As mentioned, there is room for improvement on all sides. So here are the myths abiogenesis skeptics should avoid.

Myths for Abiogenesis Skeptics to Be Aware Of

Myth #1: The entropy of designed things is always lower than the entropy of non-designed things.

This myth rests on the idea that because designed systems typically exhibit some kind of functional state or can perform work, etc., that they are always lower in entropy than more uniformly-distributed states. It is true that living organisms constitute far-from-equilibrium systems and it is true that a necessary condition for work is typically the existence of a gradient or “potential,” rather than a uniformly-distributed state. It might even be true that designed systems often exhibit a lower level of entropy than non-designed things. However, it is not necessarily the case that they always do. Indeed, on the informational side in perhaps the easiest case we have to work with, that of our own language, we recognize that while meaningful language patterns tend to cluster toward a particular end of the entropy spectrum, there are nonsense patterns both lower and higher on the spectrum.

Myth #2: The measure of entropy is a sufficient, or even key, indicator of design.

This myth is related to the prior myth, but deserves its own paragraph. Those who hold to this myth take the trajectory of the constraints of the 2nd Law and apply them a bridge too far. Whether thermal, organizational, or informational, the measure of entropy in a system is not the ultimate arbiter of whether something is designed. The measure of entropy is essentially a statistical measure, similar at some level (if I dare mention another poorly-understood issue) to the statistical measure of the Shannon information metric. As such, the entropy measure can operate as something of a surrogate for the complexity side of the design inference. But it does not, in and of itself, address the specification aspect, nor yield an unambiguous signal of design. It is doubtful that it will ever be possible to prove design through a definite, unassailable calculation of entropy. Thus, while an entropy analysis can be an initial step in assessing the probability of a system arising through natural processes, it is not the only, nor even the most important, characteristic that needs to be considered to infer design.

Myth #3: The 2nd Law prohibits abiogenesis.

This myth is the reciprocal of Myth #4 for the abiogenesis proponents. Just as abiogenesis proponents sometimes mistakenly equate the lack of an absolute prohibition with the lack of significant practical constraints, abiogenesis skeptics sometimes mistakenly equate the existence of significant practical constraints with an absolute prohibition. It is true that origin of life researchers acknowledge the constraints imposed by the 2nd Law and that a resolution is not yet at hand. It is likely even the case that if we look at the specific molecular reactions required to form a simple living organism that pure thermodynamic considerations (setting aside organizational and informational aspects for a moment) will be sufficient to conclude that abiogenesis is effectively impossible. But the fact remains that it is, conceivably, at least logically possible.

Many abiogenesis skeptics will resonate with the following assessment from Robert Gange in Origins and Destiny, as early as 1986:

The likelihood of life having occurred through a chemical accident is, for all intents and purposes, zero. That does not mean that faith in a miraculous accident will not continue. But it does mean that those who believe it do so because they are philosophically committed to the notion that all that exists is matter and its motion. In other words, they do so for reasons of philosophy and not science.

However, even as Gange acknowledges, we are dealing with “likelihood” not absolute logical prohibition.

Summary

As I have indicated on previous occasions, I do not view arguments based on the 2nd Law as the best arguments to make against evolution generally, or against abiogenesis specifically.

Let me be clear: the 2nd Law does impose harsh, unforgiving, inescapable parameters on any abiogenesis scenario. The constraints of the 2nd Law are acknowledged by origin of life researchers and should be strongly pointed out where applicable. However, there are reasons to be cautious with the 2nd Law arguments, including:

(a) Arguments based on the 2nd Law tend to quickly become bogged down in definitional battles and general misunderstandings, including the myths outlined above. Often, so much energy is spent trying to correct the myths that little substantive progress results.

(b) The really interesting aspect of designed systems is not, in most cases, their thermal properties, but the organizational and informational aspects. Although there are good reasons to examine these aspects in the context of “entropy,” it is not formally necessary to do so, nor is it perhaps the most helpful and straight-forward way to do so.

(c) Ultimately, 2nd Law arguments eventually collapse to a probability argument. This occurs for two reasons: (1) abiogenesis proponents, despite the lack of any empirical evidence for abiogenesis and strong reasons – including thermodynamic ones – to doubt the abiogenesis story, can always repose faith in a lucky chance, a cosmic accident, a highly-unusual coincidence to explain the origin of far-from-equilibrium living systems; and (2) the design inference itself depends in part on a probability analysis (coupled with a specification). As a result, despite whatever watertight 2nd Law argument an abiogenesis skeptic may put forward, it eventually comes down to a question of the probabilities and whether the abiogenesis story is realistic given the available probabilistic resources.

In summary, the constraints imposed by the 2nd Law should definitely be on the list – the exceedingly long list – of problems with a purely naturalistic origin of life story.

However, I would probably not lead with it.

Comments
#155 Eric Anderson, I was serious about that. Self-replication (with some tolerance for copying errors) constrained by limited survival chances seems to be the optimal recipe for "swimming upstream" in a stable entropy flux. I suppose whatever meets that description will be classified as "life", or at least something covered by the field of biology (viruses, for example, no matter if you treat them as bona fide life-forms). If we ever find anything like that on other planets, we'll call it extraterrestrial life. Cultural evolution (including the evolution of language in humans) is also a potential example, but of course it has biological foundations and presupposes the existence of living beings.Piotr
March 18, 2015
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Missy @118:
Some more or less stepwise process, probably… just like Piotr explained.
Piotr didn't "explain" anything. He just regurgitated the theory: molecules come together in some unknown, unspecified way to form a larger molecule; those come together in some unknown, unspecified way to form a larger structure; unspecified things keep coming together in unspecified ways until, one glorious day, we have life. It isn't an explanation. It doesn't even pass the laugh test. It is more of a gullibility test. @ 119:
And because we don’t know everything about that, doesn’t mean we should jump in to conclusions, saying “God did it”. I could say the same about your “god hypothesis”: you don’t know everything. How the hell did your God did all of that? What were the processes involved? You don’t know? So, god didn’t do it! I chose the natural origin of life hypothesis, because the alternative is to postulate the existence of a god without independent confirmation and the hypothesis itself has nothing useful. No processes involved. Nothing.
Again, you do not understand the design argument. You are just repeating the tired "god-of-the-gaps" kids-on-a-playground-level accusation that seems to get trotted out anytime a materialist is pushed into an evidentiary corner. I am tolerant of your view, but would note that this thread does not invoke God and does not relate to God. That is an interesting discussion in its own right, but not germane to the thread.Eric Anderson
March 18, 2015
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Missy @113:
No strawman here. Just me telling him/her how to be an intellectually fulfilled creationist (I’ve seen creationists making this kind of argument before, and if you’re not one of them, you shouldn’t be so agitated, because the comment wasn’t directed to you and doesn’t fit you).
It is possible you have heard some people make that kind of argument, but certainly not any well-known proponent of intelligent design. Nor does skepticism of abiogenesis lead to the kind of caricature you are putting up. What is significantly more likely, in my experience, is that materialists misunderstand or misrepresent the logical structure of the argument. It is much easier to dismiss that way, rather than dealing with the evidence. You have fallen into the trap of Myth #5.Eric Anderson
March 18, 2015
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RalphDavidWestfall @78:
And how does this feeding mechanism which can acquire and direct this minuscule energy to generate increased complexity come into existence? Can anyone point to any process outside of biology where very complex functional systems self-organize themselves needing only some matter in the presence of external energy?
Indeed. Excellent question. Of course, one could try to define the issue away like Piotr did.Eric Anderson
March 18, 2015
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Here is a fairly comprehensive list of the anomalous life enabling properties of water:
Anomalous life enabling properties of water http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/anmlies.html Water's remarkable capabilities - December 2010 - Peer Reviewed Excerpt: All these traits are contained in a simple molecule of only three atoms. One of the most difficult tasks for an engineer is to design for multiple criteria at once. ... Satisfying all these criteria in one simple design is an engineering marvel. Also, the design process goes very deep since many characteristics would necessarily be changed if one were to alter fundamental physical properties such as the strong nuclear force or the size of the electron. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2010/12/pro-intelligent_design_peer_re042211.html
And these properties of water 'exist on a knife-edge'.
Water's quantum weirdness makes life possible - October 2011 Excerpt: WATER'S life-giving properties exist on a knife-edge. It turns out that life as we know it relies on a fortuitous, but incredibly delicate, balance of quantum forces.,,, They found that the hydrogen-oxygen bonds were slightly longer than the deuterium-oxygen ones, which is what you would expect if quantum uncertainty was affecting water’s structure. “No one has ever really measured that before,” says Benmore. We are used to the idea that the cosmos’s physical constants are fine-tuned for life. Now it seems water’s quantum forces can be added to this “just right” list. http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21228354.900-waters-quantum-weirdness-makes-life-possible.html
Also of interest to the life enabling properties of water, water appears to also be 'designed' with protein folding in mind:
Protein Folding: One Picture Per Millisecond Illuminates The Process - 2008 Excerpt: The RUB-chemists initiated the folding process and then monitored the course of events. It turned out that within less than ten milliseconds, the motions of the water network were altered as well as the protein itself being restructured. “These two processes practically take place simultaneously“, Prof. Havenith-Newen states, “they are strongly correlated.“ These observations support the yet controversial suggestion that water plays a fundamental role in protein folding, and thus in protein function, and does not stay passive. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/08/080805075610.htm Water Is 'Designer Fluid' That Helps Proteins Change Shape - 2008 Excerpt: "When bound to proteins, water molecules participate in a carefully choreographed ballet that permits the proteins to fold into their functional, native states. This delicate dance is essential to life." http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/08/080806113314.htm
supplemental note:
Water found to be an ideal lubricant for nanomachines - September 1, 2013 Excerpt: Researchers from the University of Amsterdam have discovered that machines just one molecule in size move far quicker if you add a 'lubricant' to their surroundings. To their surprise, water proved to be the best lubricant by far. http://phys.org/news/2013-08-ideal-lubricant-nanomachines.html
bornagain77
March 18, 2015
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as to the 'just add water to get life' belief of materialists, water is not nearly as friendly in overcoming entropic concerns as atheists imagine it is:
A Substantial Conundrum Confronting The Chemical Origin Of Life - August 2011 Excerpt: 1. Peptide bond formation is an endothermic reaction. This means that the reaction requires the absorption of energy: It does not take place spontaneously. 2. Peptide bond formation is a condensation reaction. It hence involves the net removal of a water molecule. So not only can this reaction not happen spontaneously in an aqueous medium, but, in fact, the presence of water inhibits the reaction. https://uncommondescent.com/origin-of-life/a-substantial-conundrum-confronting-the-chemical-origin-of-life/ Top Five Problems with Current Origin-of-Life Theories - Casey Luskin - December 12, 2012 Excerpt:: Problem 2: Forming Polymers Requires Dehydration Synthesis: Chemically speaking, however, the last place you'd want to link amino acids into chains would be a vast water-based environment like the "primordial soup" or underwater near a hydrothermal vent. As the National Academy of Sciences acknowledges, "Two amino acids do not spontaneously join in water. Rather, the opposite reaction is thermodynamically favored."11 In other words, water breaks down protein chains into amino acids (or other constituents), making it very difficult to produce proteins (or other polymers) in the primordial soup. [11.] Committee on the Limits of Organic Life in Planetary Systems, Committee on the Origins and Evolution of Life, National Research Council, The Limits of Organic Life in Planetary Systems, p. 60 (Washington D.C.: National Academy Press, 2007). http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/12/top_five_probl067431.html RNA world: Chemists Propose a Seemingly Unlikely Environment for the Origin of Life - February 27, 2013 Excerpt:,,, *The "water problem": Many of the bonds in RNA will undergo hydrolysis. This occurs when water reacts with the bond, causing it to break apart. In a lab, the problem is easily addressed by using a different solvent. However, the environment of the early Earth could not draw on the resource of various organic solvents. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/02/death_valley_da068661.html Suzan Mazur: Origin of life shifting to “nonmaterial events”? - December 15, 2013 Excerpt: The first paradox is the tendency of organic matter to devolve and to give tar. If you can avoid that, you can start to try to assemble things that are not tarry, but then you encounter the water problem, which is related to the fact that every interesting bond that you want to make is unstable, thermodynamically, with respect to water. If you can solve that problem, you have the problem of entropy, that any of the building blocks are going to be present in a low concentration; therefore, to assemble a large number of those building blocks, you get a gene-like RNA — 100 nucleotides long — that fights entropy. And the fourth problem is that even if you can solve the entropy problem, you have a paradox that RNA enzymes, which are maybe catalytically active, are more likely to be active in the sense that destroys RNA rather than creates RNA. https://uncommondescent.com/origin-of-life/origin-of-life-shifting-to-nonmaterial-events/ Abiogenic Origin of Life: A Theory in Crisis - Arthur V. Chadwick, Ph.D. Excerpt: The synthesis of proteins and nucleic acids from small molecule precursors represents one of the most difficult challenges to the model of prebiological evolution. There are many different problems confronted by any proposal. Polymerization is a reaction in which water is a product. Thus it will only be favored in the absence of water. The presence of precursors in an ocean of water favors depolymerization of any molecules that might be formed. Careful experiments done in an aqueous solution with very high concentrations of amino acids demonstrate the impossibility of significant polymerization in this environment. A thermodynamic analysis of a mixture of protein and amino acids in an ocean containing a 1 molar solution of each amino acid (100,000,000 times higher concentration than we inferred to be present in the prebiological ocean) indicates the concentration of a protein containing just 100 peptide bonds (101 amino acids) at equilibrium would be 10^-338 molar. Just to make this number meaningful, our universe may have a volume somewhere in the neighborhood of 10^85 liters. At 10^-338 molar, we would need an ocean with a volume equal to 10^229 universes (100, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000) just to find a single molecule of any protein with 100 peptide bonds. So we must look elsewhere for a mechanism to produce polymers. It will not happen in the ocean. http://origins.swau.edu/papers/life/chadwick/default.html Sea Salt only adds to this thermodynamic problem: ...even at concentrations seven times weaker than in today’s oceans. The ingredients of sea salt are very effective at dismembering membranes and preventing RNA units (monomers) from forming polymers any longer than two links (dimers). Creation Evolution News - Sept. 2002 Professor Arthur E. Wilder-Smith "Any amounts of polypeptide which might be formed will be broken down into their initial components (amino acids) by the excess of water. The ocean is thus practically the last place on this or any other planet where the proteins of life could be formed spontaneously from amino acids. Yet nearly all text-books of biology teach this nonsense to support evolutionary theory and spontaneous biogenesis ... Has materialistic Neo-Darwinian philosophy overwhelmed us to such an extent that we forget or overlook the well-known facts of science and of chemistry in order to support this philosophy? ... Without exception all Miller's amino acids are completely unsuitable for any type of spontaneous biogenesis. And the same applies to all and any randomly formed substances and amino acids which form racemates. This statement is categorical and absolute and cannot be affected by special conditions." http://theevolutioncrisis.org.uk/testimony3.php
Moreover, the 'just add water to get life' belief of materialists reminds me of this quote:
"Science just asks for one small miracle and then they'll be sure to take care of the rest." Terence McKenna
If any substance deserves to be called 'miraculous' in its fine-tuning for life, it is water! When we look at water, the most common substance on earth and in our bodies, we find many odd characteristics which clearly appear to be designed. These oddities are absolutely essential for life on earth. Some simple life can exist without the direct energy of sunlight, some simple life can exist without oxygen; but no life can exist without water. Water is called a universal solvent because it has the unique ability to dissolve a far wider range of substances than any other solvent. This 'universal solvent' ability of water is essential for the cells of living organisms to process the wide range of substances necessary for life. Another oddity is water expands as it becomes ice, by an increase of about 9% in volume. Thus, water floats when it becomes a solid instead of sinking. This is an exceedingly rare ability. Water is the only non-metallic substance on Earth with this property. Yet if it were not for this fact, lakes and oceans would freeze from the bottom up. The earth would be a frozen wasteland, and human life would not be possible. Water also has the unusual ability to pull itself into very fine tubes and small spaces, defying gravity. This is called capillary action. This action is essential for the breakup of mineral bearing rocks into soil. Water pulls itself into tiny spaces on the surface of a rock and freezes; it expands and breaks the rock into tinier pieces, thus producing soil. Capillary action is also essential for the movement of water through soil to the roots of plants. It is also essential for the movement of water from the roots to the tops of the plants, even to the tops of the mighty redwood trees,,,
Towering Giants Of Teleological Beauty - October 2010 https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/towering-giants-of-teleological-beauty/
,,,Capillary action is also essential for the circulation of the blood in our very own capillary blood vessels. Water's melting and boiling point are not where common sense would indicate they should be when we look at its molecular weight. The three sister compounds of water all behave as would be predicted by their molecular weight. Oddly, water just happens to have melting and boiling points that are of optimal biological utility. The other properties of water we measure, like its specific slipperiness (viscosity) and its ability to absorb and release more heat than any other natural substance, have to be as they are in order for life to be possible on earth. Even the oceans have to be the size they are in order to stabilize the temperature of the earth so human life may be possible.
Oceans vital for possibility for alien life - July 20, 2014 Excerpt: "Oceans have an immense capacity to control climate. They are beneficial because they cause the surface temperature to respond very slowly to seasonal changes in solar heating. And they help ensure that temperature swings across a planet are kept to tolerable levels. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/07/140720203459.htm
On and on through each characteristic we can possibly measure water with, it turns out to be required to be almost exactly as it is or complex life on this earth could not exist. No other liquid in the universe comes anywhere near matching water in its fitness for life (Denton: Nature's Destiny).bornagain77
March 18, 2015
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"Some tend to self organise that’s nice" Well, it isn't so nice for tornado-in-junkyard types. Exposing molecules to a "molecular tornado" often results in spontaneous entropy-favored reassembly. Cars and houses don't do this. So if the analogy totally and utterly fails in the face of observations, why keep using it? To mislead, I suppose? "so tell me which ones self organise? Left handed? Right handed or a mixture?" D- and L-amino acids, and mixtures of the two, can self assemble. Let's not distract this discussion with the origins of homochirality.REC
March 18, 2015
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Some tend to self organise that's nice and I suppose this is the hope of those that reckon life started in water. .. so tell me which ones self organise? Left handed? Right handed or a mixture?Andre
March 18, 2015
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True, REC. We both know that so-called "hydrophobic bonding" is almost entirely entropic. Ironically, when amino acids enter water, the resulting zwitterion formation will lead to a decrease in the entropy of the water immediately surrounding each amino acid, which is compensated for by an increase in the entropy of the rest of the solution. Chemistry is fun. Examples of compensation abound.DNA_Jock
March 18, 2015
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Andre @141 "What happens to amino acids in water?" Some tend to self-organize. This organization is largely driven by entropy.REC
March 18, 2015
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CJYman @73: Thank you for the good thoughts and explanation. Those falling into the trap of Myth #1, please read CHYman's comments. This also drives home the point that it is helpful to try to understand someone's argument -- even going so far as to mak a charitable attempt to reframe it in language that makes sense to you, if needed -- rather than playing rhetorical games.Eric Anderson
March 18, 2015
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Sal @4: Thanks for the comments.
You're welcome.
Good to hear from you — I thought we might bring you out of the woodwork on this one. :)
:-) Regards, Salscordova
March 18, 2015
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So Missy, you have never actually seen, in real time, a molecular machine arise by unguided material processes. No one else has ever seen, in real time, a molecular machine arise by unguided material processes. But you believe that by divining the tea leaves of deep time, i.e. history, that you can deduce that unguided material processes accomplished in the past what they cannot accomplish today? Small problem with all that, deep time is not your friend:
Time: The Unlikely Villain Excerpt: When confronted with the problem of equilibrium, most scientific materialists will appeal to the magic ingredient of time. In chapter one we saw this appeal by Nobel Laureate, George Wald: "Time is in fact the hero of the plot. Given so much time the impossible becomes possible, the possible probable, and the probable virtually certain. One has only to wait: Time itself performs the miracles." 49 However, Dr. (Harold F.) Blum, who is a materialist, points out that Wald's faith in the miraculous ingredient of time is mere wishful thinking. Prolonged time periods, he asserts, actually worsen the dilemma: "I think if I were rewriting this chapter [on the origin of life] completely, I should want to change the emphasis somewhat. I should want to play down still more the importance of the great amount of time available for highly improbable events to occur. One may take the view that the greater the time elapsed the greater should be the approach to equilibrium, the most probable state, and it seems that this ought to take precedence in our thinking over the idea that time provides the possibility for the occurrence of the highly improbable." 50 (Emphasis added) According to Dr. Blum, the magic bullet of time does not increase the likelihood that chains of DNA or proteins will form by chance chemistry. In fact, according to Dr. Blum, increasing the time factor actually ensures that any primordial soup would consist of predominantly unbonded amino acids and nucleotides! http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/esp_ciencia_life13.htm
i.e. time itself is found to be connected to entropy:
Shining Light on Dark Energy – October 21, 2012 Excerpt: It (Entropy) explains time; it explains every possible action in the universe;,, Even gravity, Vedral argued, can be expressed as a consequence of the law of entropy. ,,, The principles of thermodynamics are at their roots all to do with information theory. Information theory is simply an embodiment of how we interact with the universe —,,, http://crev.info/2012/10/shining-light-on-dark-energy/
As well, the irreversible process of ‘Genetic Deterioration’ over deep time is indicated in ‘realistic’ computer simulations over deep time:
Using Numerical Simulation to Better Understand Fixation Rates, and Establishment of a New Principle – “Haldane’s Ratchet” – Christopher L. Rupe and John C. Sanford – 2013 Excerpt: We have therefore independently demonstrated that the findings of Haldane and ReMine are for the most part correct, and that the fundamental evolutionary problem historically known as “Haldane’s Dilemma” is very real. Previous analyses have focused exclusively on beneficial mutations. When deleterious mutations were included in our simulations, using a realistic ratio of beneficial to deleterious mutation rate, deleterious fixations vastly outnumbered beneficial fixations. Because of this, the net effect of mutation fixation should clearly create a ratchet-type mechanism which should cause continuous loss of information and decline in the size of the functional genome. We name this phenomenon “Haldane’s Ratchet”. http://media.wix.com/ugd/a704d4_47bcf08eda0e4926a44a8ac9cbfa9c20.pdf
Thus, Darwinists are found to be postulating that the irreversible ‘random’ events of entropy of the universe, entropic events which explain time itself in the first place, are creating information when in fact it is now shown that these random entropic events in the cell, and of the universe, will do exactly the opposite of what Darwinists claim they can do. These ‘random’ entropic events are found to be consistently destroying the information in the cell rather than ever creating it. It is the equivalent in science of someone claiming that gravity can make things fall up instead of down, and that is not overstating the bizarre situation we find ourselves in in the least, with this completely unsupported postulation from Darwinists for how life arose and diversified, since gravity itself is tied to time and entropy.
Evolution is a Fact, Just Like Gravity is a Fact! UhOh! – January 2010 Excerpt: The results of this paper suggest gravity arises as an entropic force, once space and time themselves have emerged. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/evolution-is-a-fact-just-like-gravity-is-a-f
Also of note: Atheistic neo-Darwinists claim that given enough time the improbable becomes probable. i.e. Evolution, no matter how improbable, becomes certain if you allow enough time according to their reasoning. Thus to counter such simplistic reasoning in the power of time to work miracles, here are a few notes to the contrary of what the neo-Darwinists take on blind faith in the power of time;
William Lane Craig - If Human Evolution Did Occur It Was A Miracle - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUxm8dXLRpA Quote from preceding video - In Barrow and Tippler’s book The Anthropic Cosmological Principle, they list ten steps necessary in the course of human evolution, each of which, is so improbable that if left to happen by chance alone, the sun would have ceased to be a main sequence star and would have incinerated the earth. They estimate that the odds of the evolution (by chance) of the human genome is somewhere between 4 to the negative 180th power, to the 110,000th power, and 4 to the negative 360th power, to the 110,000th power. Therefore, if evolution did occur, it literally would have been a miracle and evidence for the existence of God. William Lane Craig “So there we have it. The amount of time currently available for life to evolve is of the order of time N (billions of years), but according to Chaitin’s toy model, Darwinian evolution should take at least time N^2, or quintillions of years. That fact troubles Chaitin, and it should. But at least he has the honesty to admit there is a problem.” Dr. VJ Torley https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/a-hypothetical-question-for-neo-darwinists-on-the-age-of-the-earth/ A review of The Edge of Evolution: The Search for the Limits of Darwinism Excerpt: The numbers of Plasmodium and HIV in the last 50 years greatly exceeds the total number of mammals since their supposed evolutionary origin (several hundred million years ago), yet little has been achieved by evolution. This suggests that mammals could have “invented” little in their time frame. Behe: ‘Our experience with HIV gives good reason to think that Darwinism doesn’t do much—even with billions of years and all the cells in that world at its disposal’ (p. 155). http://creation.com/review-michael-behe-edge-of-evolution Waiting Longer for Two Mutations – Michael J. Behe Excerpt: Citing malaria literature sources (White 2004) I had noted that the de novo appearance of chloroquine resistance in Plasmodium falciparum was an event of probability of 1 in 10^20. I then wrote that ‘for humans to achieve a mutation like this by chance, we would have to wait 100 million times 10 million years’ (1 quadrillion years)(Behe 2007) (because that is the extrapolated time that it would take to produce 10^20 humans). Durrett and Schmidt (2008, p. 1507) retort that my number ‘is 5 million times larger than the calculation we have just given’ using their model (which nonetheless “using their model” gives a prohibitively long waiting time of 216 million years). Their criticism compares apples to oranges. My figure of 10^20 is an empirical statistic from the literature; it is not, as their calculation is, a theoretical estimate from a population genetics model. http://www.discovery.org/a/9461
bornagain77
March 18, 2015
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ENich @61: Welcome! And thank you for the thoughts and observations. I hope you will feel free to join in and comment on threads any time.Eric Anderson
March 18, 2015
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«Again, I’m not sure you are driving at this particular aspect, but the idea that we should accept the possibility of life arising by chance because, after all, other improbable things happen, does not hold water.» - I think accepting the possibility is just a humble proposition and for accepting the POSSIBILITY we do not need much more. Accepting it as likely or the best hypothesis, that's another story, but I addressed why I do accept it as such (I mean, I guess when you say "by chance", you're inaccurately referring to life arising by natural processes) and I also pointed out that a good explanation for the origin of life would be some stepwise process and referenced Piotr's comment and example.Missy
March 18, 2015
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Box @54:
An increase in organization implies a decrease of statistical entropy, right?
Not necessarily. This is one of the problems with the 2nd Law arguments. (Myth #1 for the abiogenesis skeptics.) I think entropy can be relevant in very specific cases to point out the expected trajectory of the system in that case. But we cannot, in my view, point to a general principle that would unequivocally tie entropy to design.Eric Anderson
March 18, 2015
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Piotr @49:
Good, we have established that the creation of life from sctratch is impossibly difficult. There goes creationism. Stepwise increase of complexity seems to be the only viable notion.
This is nowhere near anything that can reasonably be concluded from KF's statement, and is a clear attempt at misdirection. Piotr, on a regular basis you have good thoughts and careful observations. I know many of us appreciate your participation. Please don't sully your own approach by misrepresenting KF's statement.Eric Anderson
March 18, 2015
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What happens to amino acids in water? What happens to amino acids in oxygen? What happens to amino acids exposed to heat? What happens to amino acids exposed to cold? Just asking......Andre
March 18, 2015
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Missy @15: Thanks for your comments.
As for the origin of life, I’ve read about a physicist who says that the laws of thermodynamics are favorable to the origin of life under certain conditions. I’m saying this without looking at it. I think a link a link was posted a while ago at sandwalk.
I would be very interested in the link, if you can find it. Until then, I remain extremely skeptical, because we have been sent down the rabbit's hole with papers that allegedly show this or that (including by Nick Matzke a while back on this very issue of thermodynamics as it relates to living systems). The conditions the physicist is proposing must be highly unrealistic for early Earth or his conclusions would be enthusiastically embraced by more researchers. That origin of life researchers are still grappling with the thermodynamic issues in OOL should suggest something to us.
As for probabilities… do you even know that, for instance, the event of someone who is black having a white twin is improbable, and much more so the probability of having a black twin x the probability of both having brown eyes x the probability of both having small ears x … (whatever traits)? And I don’t think we need to go that far – any genetic conbination that you might have is improbable.
I'm not sure where you are headed, but I would just point out that the probabilities we are talking about for purposes of the design inference or in OOL are far beyond the examples you provide. Again, I'm not sure you are driving at this particular aspect, but the idea that we should accept the possibility of life arising by chance because, after all, other improbable things happen, does not hold water. But that is the topic of discussion for another day. :)Eric Anderson
March 18, 2015
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Eric Anderson: If you are still having trouble with this concept, do a quick Google search for something like “aviation overcome-gravity” and you will see what I mean. One overcomes the force of gravity, not the law of gravity. EA: is this a semantic game you are trying to play? Can you look at Box's statement that keith s cited in comment #1 and read it in a way to refer to the "effects" of thermodynamics, not the "law" of thermodynamics? Eric Anderson: It is most certainly not common. Common enough. EA: Perhaps it comes up occasionally. But most of the time we are dealing with (i) a less-than-perfect explanation [Myth #3 for the abiogenesis skeptic], coupled with (ii) an uncharitable or purposeful attempt to discredit the skeptic, rather than thoughtfully discussing the issue at hand [Myth #1 for the abiogenesis proponent].Zachriel
March 18, 2015
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Collin @13: I realized you addressed this to Jim, but I'll answer as well:
Also, would you say that something that is thermodynamically impossible would even be impossible with an intelligent designer?
Yes, it would be impossible even with an intelligent designer. I agree with Zachriel @21.Eric Anderson
March 18, 2015
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Jim Smith @10-12: Excellent comments. The only caveat I would make, if I may, is that the onus to "refute all proposed mechanisms for the natural origin of life" is a bit too strong, and places the burden on the wrong foot. After all, we cannot prove a negative. The burden is on those alleging some naturalistic origin to provide a good reason -- I would even be happy with a rational, semi-plausible one -- to think that the scenario holds water. Yes, a part of the skeptical job is to point out problems with the scenarios, but we are talking about a historical matter which is decided on an inference to the best explanation, not a complete refutation of all proposed scenarios. Particularly when many of the scenarios are so vague and unclear that they are not even be amenable to full analysis or refutation. Anyway, I think we are on the same page. Just a minor caveat to the description. Thanks,Eric Anderson
March 18, 2015
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“I don’t have any real time empirical evidence of unguided material processes producing a single molecular machine, but what I do have are just so stories that I believe in” No, you IDiot. Let me translate that to you: What I have is "historical" data, and by exploring them I can come up with conclusions.Missy
March 18, 2015
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Missy as to:
“An illusion can never go faster than the speed limit of reality” – Now apply it to your “god did it” crap.
actually,
“An illusion can never go faster than the speed limit of reality”
is far more supportive of '“god did it” crap' than you seem to realize:
Looking Beyond Space and Time to Cope With Quantum Theory - (Oct. 28, 2012) Excerpt: To derive their inequality, which sets up a measurement of entanglement between four particles, the researchers considered what behaviours are possible for four particles that are connected by influences that stay hidden and that travel at some arbitrary finite speed. Mathematically (and mind-bogglingly), these constraints define an 80-dimensional object. The testable hidden influence inequality is the boundary of the shadow this 80-dimensional shape casts in 44 dimensions. The researchers showed that quantum predictions can lie outside this boundary, which means they are going against one of the assumptions. Outside the boundary, either the influences can't stay hidden, or they must have infinite speed.,,, The remaining option is to accept that (quantum) influences must be infinitely fast,,, "Our result gives weight to the idea that quantum correlations somehow arise from outside spacetime, in the sense that no story in space and time can describe them," says Nicolas Gisin, Professor at the University of Geneva, Switzerland,,, http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/10/121028142217.htm Lecture 11: Decoherence and Hidden Variables - Scott Aaronson Excerpt: "Look, we all have fun ridiculing the creationists who think the world sprang into existence on October 23, 4004 BC at 9AM (presumably Babylonian time), with the fossils already in the ground, light from distant stars heading toward us, etc. But if we accept the usual picture of quantum mechanics, then in a certain sense the situation is far worse: the world (as you experience it) might as well not have existed 10^-43 seconds ago!" http://www.scottaaronson.com/democritus/lec11.html
Of related note, Einstein was once asked (by a philosopher):
"Can physics demonstrate the existence of 'the now' in order to make the notion of 'now' into a scientifically valid term?"
Einstein's answer was categorical, he said:
"The experience of 'the now' cannot be turned into an object of physical measurement, it can never be a part of physics."
Quote was taken from the last few minutes of this following video or can be read in full context in the article following the video:
Stanley L. Jaki: "The Mind and Its Now" https://vimeo.com/10588094 The Mind and Its Now - Stanley L. Jaki, July 2008 Excerpts: There can be no active mind without its sensing its existence in the moment called now.,,, Three quarters of a century ago Charles Sherrington, the greatest modern student of the brain, spoke memorably on the mind's baffling independence of the brain. The mind lives in a self-continued now or rather in the now continued in the self. This life involves the entire brain, some parts of which overlap, others do not. ,,,There is no physical parallel to the mind's ability to extend from its position in the momentary present to its past moments, or in its ability to imagine its future. The mind remains identical with itself while it lives through its momentary nows. ,,, the now is immensely richer an experience than any marvelous set of numbers, even if science could give an account of the set of numbers, in terms of energy levels. The now is not a number. It is rather a word, the most decisive of all words. It is through experiencing that word that the mind comes alive and registers all existence around and well beyond. ,,, All our moments, all our nows, flow into a personal continuum, of which the supreme form is the NOW which is uncreated, because it simply IS. http://www.saintcd.com/science-and-faith/277-the-mind-and-its-now.html?showall=1&limitstart=
The statement, 'the now' cannot be turned into an object of physical measurement’, was an interesting statement for Einstein to make since 'the now of the mind' has, from many recent experiments in quantum mechanics, undermined the space-time of Einstein's General Relativity as to being the absolute frame of reference for reality.
A Short Survey Of Quantum Mechanics and Consciousness Excerpt: Putting all the lines of evidence together the argument for God from consciousness can now be framed like this: 1. Consciousness either preceded all of material reality or is a ‘epi-phenomena’ of material reality. 2. If consciousness is a ‘epi-phenomena’ of material reality then consciousness will be found to have no special position within material reality. Whereas conversely, if consciousness precedes material reality then consciousness will be found to have a special position within material reality. 3. Consciousness is found to have a special, even central, position within material reality. 4. Therefore, consciousness is found to precede material reality. Four intersecting lines of experimental evidence from quantum mechanics that shows that consciousness precedes material reality (Wigner’s Quantum Symmetries, Wheeler’s Delayed Choice, Leggett’s Inequalities, Quantum Zeno effect) https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uLcJUgLm1vwFyjwcbwuYP0bK6k8mXy-of990HudzduI/edit
i.e. 'the now of the mind', contrary to what Einstein thought possible for experimental physics, and according to advances in quantum mechanics, takes precedence over past events in time. Moreover, due to advances in quantum mechanics, it would now be much more appropriate to phrase Einstein's answer to the philosopher in this way:
"It is impossible for the experience of 'the now of the mind' to ever be divorced from physical measurement, it will always be a part of physics."
Of related note, Einstein took the importance of mind (and free will), as to coherently explaining reality, far too lightly, since he himself would not have been able to deduce relativity unless he possessed faculties of mind that are not reducible to a material basis:
Physicist George Ellis on the importance of philosophy and free will - July 27, 2014 Excerpt: And free will?: Horgan: Einstein, in the following quote, seemed to doubt free will: “If the moon, in the act of completing its eternal way around the Earth, were gifted with self-consciousness, it would feel thoroughly convinced that it was traveling its way of its own accord…. So would a Being, endowed with higher insight and more perfect intelligence, watching man and his doings, smile about man’s illusion that he was acting according to his own free will.” Do you believe in free will? Ellis: Yes. Einstein is perpetuating the belief that all causation is bottom up. This simply is not the case, as I can demonstrate with many examples from sociology, neuroscience, physiology, epigenetics, engineering, and physics. Furthermore if Einstein did not have free will in some meaningful sense, then he could not have been responsible for the theory of relativity – it would have been a product of lower level processes but not of an intelligent mind choosing between possible options. I find it very hard to believe this to be the case – indeed it does not seem to make any sense. Physicists should pay attention to Aristotle’s four forms of causation – if they have the free will to decide what they are doing. If they don’t, then why waste time talking to them? They are then not responsible for what they say. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/physicist-george-ellis-on-the-importance-of-philosophy-and-free-will/
bornagain77
March 18, 2015
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Sal @4: Thanks for the comments. Good to hear from you -- I thought we might bring you out of the woodwork on this one. :) What you are highlighting is, in my estimation, a valid point, a worthy caution, and is the basis for Myth #1 under the abiogenesis skeptics. Also, (a) under the summary. So you needn't feel like you are the lone voice crying in the wilderness. :) For the reasons outlined, I agree with you that the 2nd Law argument is not the most fruitful way to discuss these issues. I would not suggest, however, (and I'm not saying you have) that discussion of the 2nd Law should be avoided in all cases. There are some interesting issues that merit attention and fruitful discussion. It is just too hard to have a good discussion with people who constantly bring up myths and stifle the substantive points.Eric Anderson
March 18, 2015
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Zachriel @22:
Apparently, some do. It’s actually quite common. That’s why it is common to remind the reader that sunlight is the rich energy source, while the deep of space is the cold sink, and life is one of many forms of energy dissipation, swirls in the energy flow.
It is most certainly not common. See my inline comment to keith s @1. And your reminders about sunlight are a red herring. See my inline comments to keith s @2-3.Eric Anderson
March 18, 2015
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as to: "As for the rest, evolutionary steps have been partially reconstructed for said structures and what did scientists find? gene duplication, co-option, other mutations and beneficial evolutionary stages. And nothing that wasn’t explainable by known processes." Let me translate that for you Missy, "I don't have any real time empirical evidence of unguided material processes producing a single molecular machine, but what I do have are just so stories that I believe in"bornagain77
March 18, 2015
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“An illusion can never go faster than the speed limit of reality” - Now apply it to your "god did it" crap. As for the rest, evolutionary steps have been partially reconstructed for said structures and what did scientists find? gene duplication, co-option, other mutations and beneficial evolutionary stages. And nothing that wasn't explainable by known processes. EA: Please provide some citations. And keep in mind vague generalities, speculations, wild guesses, and what-if's are not quite as impressive to those who have not bought into the intellectual trap of assuming that everything must have come about through particles bumping into each other.Missy
March 18, 2015
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Missy you state that
"structures proposed by ID creationists as being designed were (and are still being) studied and nothing there seemed to be more than what is expected by known (natural) evolutionary processes."
So Missy, are you telling me that you have real time empirical evidence that unguided material processes can produce these following 'illusions of design'?
Human brain has more switches than all computers on Earth - November 2010 Excerpt: They found that the brain's complexity is beyond anything they'd imagined, almost to the point of being beyond belief, says Stephen Smith, a professor of molecular and cellular physiology and senior author of the paper describing the study: ...One synapse, by itself, is more like a microprocessor--with both memory-storage and information-processing elements--than a mere on/off switch. In fact, one synapse may contain on the order of 1,000 molecular-scale switches. A single human brain has more switches than all the computers and routers and Internet connections on Earth. http://news.cnet.com/8301-27083_3-20023112-247.html “Although the tiniest living things known to science, bacterial cells, are incredibly small (10^-12 grams), each is a veritable micro-miniaturized factory containing thousands of elegantly designed pieces of intricate molecular machinery, made up altogether of one hundred thousand million atoms, far more complicated than any machine built by man and absolutely without parallel in the non-living world”. Michael Denton, "Evolution: A Theory in Crisis," 1986, p. 250. The Cell as a Collection of Protein Machines "We have always underestimated cells. Undoubtedly we still do today,,, Indeed, the entire cell can be viewed as a factory that contains an elaborate network of interlocking assembly lines, each which is composed of a set of large protein machines." Bruce Alberts: Former President, National Academy of Sciences; http://www.imbb.forth.gr/people/aeconomou/documents/Alberts98.pdf
Here is, according to a Darwinist, a ‘horrendously complex’ metabolic pathway chart:
Map Of Major Metabolic Pathways In A Cell – Picture http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-AKkRRa65sIo/TlltZupczfI/AAAAAAAAE1s/nVSv_5HRpZg/s1600/pathway-1b.png ExPASy - Biochemical Pathways - interactive schematic http://biochemical-pathways.com/#/map/1 DNA - Replication, Wrapping & Mitosis on Vimeo Video for dna wrapping replication and mitosis - video https://vimeo.com/33882804
You claim that none of the preceding seems to be "more than what is expected by known (natural) evolutionary processes". REALLY??? Then perhaps you would not mind falsifying ID by producing a flagellum, in real time, by unguided material processes?
It’s (Much) Easier to Falsify Intelligent Design than Darwinian Evolution – Michael Behe, PhD https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_T1v_VLueGk Bacterial Flagellum - A Sheer Wonder Of Intelligent Design – video http://tl.cross.tv/61771 Biologist Howard Berg at Harvard calls the Bacterial Flagellum “the most efficient machine in the universe." Engineering at Its Finest: Bacterial Chemotaxis and Signal Transduction - JonathanM - September 2011 Excerpt: The bacterial flagellum represents not just a problem of irreducible complexity. Rather, the problem extends far deeper than that. What we are now observing is the existence of irreducibly complex systems within irreducibly complex systems. How random mutations, coupled with natural selection, could have assembled such a finely set-up system is a question to which I defy any Darwinist to give a sensible answer. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/09/engineering_at_its_finest_bact050911.html
The flagellum has steadfastly resisted all attempts to elucidate its plausible origination by Darwinian processes, much less has anyone ever actually evolved a flagellum from scratch in the laboratory;
Genetic Entropy Refutation of Nick Matzke's TTSS (type III secretion system) to Flagellum Evolutionary Narrative: Excerpt: Comparative genomic analysis show that flagellar genes have been differentially lost in endosymbiotic bacteria of insects. Only proteins involved in protein export within the flagella assembly pathway (type III secretion system and the basal-body) have been kept... http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/msn153v1
Quote:
"An illusion can never go faster than the speed limit of reality" Akiane Kramarik - former Child Prodigy -
bornagain77
March 18, 2015
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Kf, I fail to see how a calculation of the informational entropy in the human genome, and its mind-blowingly miniscule size compared with the thermal entropy available, can possibly be a red herring on threads entitled “Piotr (and KS, DNA_Jock, VS, Z et al) and “compensation” arguments vs the energy audit police . . .” and “Second Thoughts on the Second Law: Extending an Olive Branch“ Simply put, Granville Sewell is wrong. (His x-entropies don’t even have the right units, a mistake that a high-school student would be excoriated for.) In a discussion of 2LoT it is YOU, kairosfocus, who is indulging in the red-herring strawman, by trying to introduce FSCO/I and related probability arguments. You say “The material issue then is not mere quantities but he statistical underpinnings and the implication that entropy is in effect a metric of average missing info”, but you resolutely refuse to consider the nature of the trade-off. If you want to talk about the improbability of some aspect of life on earth, let’s discuss that. But you keep erroneously conflating that alleged improbability with 2LoT. As Sal Cordova has pointed out to you previously, you really should stop. On the other hand, I do understand your desire to conflate the issues – your improbability argument lacks substance: You keep claiming that, e.g.,
FSCO/I exists, is real and relevant, is also showing how the blind chance and necessity resources of the obseved cosmos canot scratch the surface of the config space for just 125 bytes of info.
, but you have never been able to calculate the probability p(T|H) for any biological, ever. I’m not holding my breath.DNA_Jock
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