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Second Thoughts on the Second Law: Extending an Olive Branch

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Recently on niwrad’s thread we have had a lively discussion about the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics and its potential application to the question of a materialistic abiogenesis scenario. kairosfocus has followed up with another useful post.

In the present thread I provide a high level view of some of the key issues and misconceptions surrounding the 2nd Law arguments. Please note, I do so not as any kind of official spokesperson for intelligent design, but based on my experience debating this issue and my individual thoughts on the matter. My intelligent-design-inclined colleagues may disagree with my assessment, but hopefully I have provided some food for thought and, perhaps, an avenue for more productive discourse in the future.

Discussions on this topic almost invariably generate more heat than light, but there are a few useful nuggets that have come out of the discussions that deserve to be brought to the forefront. I hope I am not stepping on niwrad’s or kairosfocus’ toes by writing this post, but I wanted to share a few thoughts in a somewhat more formal manner than I can with a comment in another thread.

Specifically, I want to lay out what the 2nd Law argument potentially can, and cannot, bring to the table in the context of the abiogenesis question. The overall goal is to help avoid side roads and irrelevancies in future discussions so that the primary issues can be focused on. As a result, I will approach this by outlining a few myths that abiogenesis proponents need to be cognizant of, as well as a few myths that abiogenesis skeptics need to be aware of.

I would note at the outset that much of the disconnect arises due to a failure to understand, or to charitably attempt to understand, the arguments being put forth by the other side. In the hopes that all of us might benefit from a deep breath and a careful outline of some of the issues, here is my initial attempt at a few myths to be aware of – and to avoid – in future discussions and debates.

Myths for Abiogenesis Proponents to Be Aware Of

Myth #1: Abiogenesis skeptics believe that, in the history of life on Earth, there has actually been a violation of the 2nd Law.

Those who entertain this myth tend to heap copious amounts of ridicule on abiogenesis skeptics, noting how incredibly foolish the skeptics are to think the 2nd Law could be violated. After all, everyone knows this is not possible, so clearly the skeptics have no idea what they are talking about and can be ignored. This might sound good on the surface, but it arises from a complete misunderstanding of the skeptics’ argument. Don’t fall prey to this myth. Don’t claim that abiogenesis skeptics think the 2nd Law has been violated. Don’t lead others astray by insinuating as much.

Myth #2: The 2nd Law does not present a problem for abiogenesis because Earth is an “open” system and receives energy from the Sun.

This myth is likewise based on a misunderstanding of the skeptics’ arguments. If skeptics were wondering where most of the energy on the Earth comes from, then pointing out that Earth is an “open” system and receives energy from the Sun would be relevant. But that is not the focus of the skeptics’ question. Nor is the skeptics’ question about where energy is from generally or whether enough energy is available. Don’t use the common ‘Earth-is-an-open-system’ refrain to try to explain why the skepticism about abiogenesis is silly, or to insinuate that skeptics are foolish because they aren’t aware of energy transfer or energy availability or similar such matters.

Myth #3: Abiogenesis skeptics believe that local decreases in entropy are not possible.

This myth is closely related to #2, and is often implicitly linked to #2, but it deserves its own paragraph. Those who entertain this myth point out – quite rightly so – that the 2nd Law does not necessarily prohibit entropy levels from changing in particular locations or under particular circumstances. They often also point to a generally-held concept that changes in entropy in one location can be “compensated” for by counterbalancing changes elsewhere. Unfortunately, again, these arguments are based on a misunderstanding of the skeptics’ argument in the first place. Abiogenesis skeptics do not question whether entropy can change in specific locations under specific circumstances. And the fact that an entropy change in location A may be “compensated” for by a change in some location B is entirely irrelevant to the question at issue.

Myth #4: The 2nd Law does not pose any practical constraints on abiogenesis because it does not absolutely prohibit abiogenesis.

Those who entertain this myth make much of the fact that living systems exist, ergo, the 2nd Law does not prohibit such systems from existing. They may carry on about how the 2nd Law does not absolutely, as a matter of sheer logic, prohibit the spontaneous formation of far-from-equilibrium systems. This myth is, again, borne of a misunderstanding of the skeptics’ argument, although in this case, as discussed below, it is sometimes due to the skeptics’ poor efforts to make clear their argument. In either case, it simply does not follow that because the 2nd Law does not prohibit such living systems from existing, that it does not prohibit them from initially forming on their own from inanimate matter under natural conditions. Such formation has definitely never been demonstrated. Additionally, it certainly does not follow that because an absolute prohibition against naturalistic abiogenesis does not exist that the 2nd Law does not pose any serious or significant constraints on such an event.

Myth #5: Concerns about the 2nd Law as it relates to abiogenesis are just the musings of ignorant design proponents or “creationists,” are old hat, and have been fully addressed many times over.

Intelligent design proponents and creationists of various stripes did not invent this issue. The fact of significant thermodynamic constraints on abiogenesis is a well-known and ongoing issue among origin of life researchers. It remains a significant hurdle and has most definitely not been solved, despite decades of attempts to do so.

Myth #6: The 2nd Law can only be applied or fruitfully studied in its initial, most basic formulation relating to thermal energy.

Again, abiogenesis skeptics are not the first to raise the idea of applying the 2nd Law – or at the very least the concepts of the 2nd Law as they relate to entropy – to other areas, including informational entropy and organizational entropy. These are intriguing areas that merit careful consideration, not handwaving dismissals by people who are unable to see beyond the initial formulation. These areas are clearly applicable to the problems of creating an information-rich, functionally-organized living system. (Furthermore, as noted above, origin of life researchers also recognize that the 2nd Law, even in its basic formulation relating to thermal energy, raises issues in the origin of life context that must be dealt with.)

Myth #7: Order equals organization.

Those who fall into this trap have a fundamental misunderstanding of the critical difference between mere order and functional organization. They often bring up examples of crystals or snowflakes or other “orderly” configurations in nature as examples of spontaneous (and thermodynamically preferred) configurations. Unfortunately, none of those examples have anything to do with what we are dealing with in living systems or in abiogenesis.

There are no doubt a few additional myths that could be added, but if abiogenesis proponents as an initial step would refrain from falling into the above traps it would go a long way toward making the discussions more fruitful.

—–

As mentioned, there is room for improvement on all sides. So here are the myths abiogenesis skeptics should avoid.

Myths for Abiogenesis Skeptics to Be Aware Of

Myth #1: The entropy of designed things is always lower than the entropy of non-designed things.

This myth rests on the idea that because designed systems typically exhibit some kind of functional state or can perform work, etc., that they are always lower in entropy than more uniformly-distributed states. It is true that living organisms constitute far-from-equilibrium systems and it is true that a necessary condition for work is typically the existence of a gradient or “potential,” rather than a uniformly-distributed state. It might even be true that designed systems often exhibit a lower level of entropy than non-designed things. However, it is not necessarily the case that they always do. Indeed, on the informational side in perhaps the easiest case we have to work with, that of our own language, we recognize that while meaningful language patterns tend to cluster toward a particular end of the entropy spectrum, there are nonsense patterns both lower and higher on the spectrum.

Myth #2: The measure of entropy is a sufficient, or even key, indicator of design.

This myth is related to the prior myth, but deserves its own paragraph. Those who hold to this myth take the trajectory of the constraints of the 2nd Law and apply them a bridge too far. Whether thermal, organizational, or informational, the measure of entropy in a system is not the ultimate arbiter of whether something is designed. The measure of entropy is essentially a statistical measure, similar at some level (if I dare mention another poorly-understood issue) to the statistical measure of the Shannon information metric. As such, the entropy measure can operate as something of a surrogate for the complexity side of the design inference. But it does not, in and of itself, address the specification aspect, nor yield an unambiguous signal of design. It is doubtful that it will ever be possible to prove design through a definite, unassailable calculation of entropy. Thus, while an entropy analysis can be an initial step in assessing the probability of a system arising through natural processes, it is not the only, nor even the most important, characteristic that needs to be considered to infer design.

Myth #3: The 2nd Law prohibits abiogenesis.

This myth is the reciprocal of Myth #4 for the abiogenesis proponents. Just as abiogenesis proponents sometimes mistakenly equate the lack of an absolute prohibition with the lack of significant practical constraints, abiogenesis skeptics sometimes mistakenly equate the existence of significant practical constraints with an absolute prohibition. It is true that origin of life researchers acknowledge the constraints imposed by the 2nd Law and that a resolution is not yet at hand. It is likely even the case that if we look at the specific molecular reactions required to form a simple living organism that pure thermodynamic considerations (setting aside organizational and informational aspects for a moment) will be sufficient to conclude that abiogenesis is effectively impossible. But the fact remains that it is, conceivably, at least logically possible.

Many abiogenesis skeptics will resonate with the following assessment from Robert Gange in Origins and Destiny, as early as 1986:

The likelihood of life having occurred through a chemical accident is, for all intents and purposes, zero. That does not mean that faith in a miraculous accident will not continue. But it does mean that those who believe it do so because they are philosophically committed to the notion that all that exists is matter and its motion. In other words, they do so for reasons of philosophy and not science.

However, even as Gange acknowledges, we are dealing with “likelihood” not absolute logical prohibition.

Summary

As I have indicated on previous occasions, I do not view arguments based on the 2nd Law as the best arguments to make against evolution generally, or against abiogenesis specifically.

Let me be clear: the 2nd Law does impose harsh, unforgiving, inescapable parameters on any abiogenesis scenario. The constraints of the 2nd Law are acknowledged by origin of life researchers and should be strongly pointed out where applicable. However, there are reasons to be cautious with the 2nd Law arguments, including:

(a) Arguments based on the 2nd Law tend to quickly become bogged down in definitional battles and general misunderstandings, including the myths outlined above. Often, so much energy is spent trying to correct the myths that little substantive progress results.

(b) The really interesting aspect of designed systems is not, in most cases, their thermal properties, but the organizational and informational aspects. Although there are good reasons to examine these aspects in the context of “entropy,” it is not formally necessary to do so, nor is it perhaps the most helpful and straight-forward way to do so.

(c) Ultimately, 2nd Law arguments eventually collapse to a probability argument. This occurs for two reasons: (1) abiogenesis proponents, despite the lack of any empirical evidence for abiogenesis and strong reasons – including thermodynamic ones – to doubt the abiogenesis story, can always repose faith in a lucky chance, a cosmic accident, a highly-unusual coincidence to explain the origin of far-from-equilibrium living systems; and (2) the design inference itself depends in part on a probability analysis (coupled with a specification). As a result, despite whatever watertight 2nd Law argument an abiogenesis skeptic may put forward, it eventually comes down to a question of the probabilities and whether the abiogenesis story is realistic given the available probabilistic resources.

In summary, the constraints imposed by the 2nd Law should definitely be on the list – the exceedingly long list – of problems with a purely naturalistic origin of life story.

However, I would probably not lead with it.

Comments
Zachriel sucking stuff from his thumb againAndre
March 18, 2015
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bornagain77: «And they do this ‘denial of design’ even though atheists/neo-Darwinists have not one shred of evidence that unguided material processes can produce non-trivial levels of function information» - Au contraire, structures proposed by ID creationists as being designed were (and are still being) studied and nothing there seemed to be more than what is expected by known (natural) evolutionary processes.Missy
March 18, 2015
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bornagain77: Atheists that are the ones in the midst of denial. Atheists admit that the ‘appearance of design’ is everywhere, but are in denial that the design they see is real. Are you conflating atheism with evolution? bornagain77: And they do this ‘denial of design’ even though atheists/neo-Darwinists have not one shred of evidence that unguided material processes can produce non-trivial levels of function information There's substantial evidence of historical transitions. A canonical example is the mammalian middle ear. Then again, the entire phylogenetic tree supports historical transitions.Zachriel
March 18, 2015
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Missy at 116 states,
"Creationists, YOU’re in denial."
No Missy, actually that would be Atheists that are the ones in the midst of denial. Atheists admit that the 'appearance of design' is everywhere, but are in denial that the design they see is real. And they do this 'denial of design' even though atheists/neo-Darwinists have not one shred of evidence that unguided material processes can produce non-trivial levels of function information (such as a bacterial flagellum). Here are a few quotes from leading Atheists getting this point across:
“Biology is the study of complicated things that give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose” Richard Dawkins – “The Blind Watchmaker” – 1986 – page 1 “We may say that a living body or organ is well designed if it has attributes that an intelligent knowledgeable engineer might have built into it in order to achieve some sensible purpose… Any engineer can recognize an object that has been designed… simply by looking at the structure of the object.” Richard Dawkins – “The Blind Watchmaker” – 1986 – page 21 “Yet the living results of natural selection overwhelmingly impress us with the appearance of design as if by a master watchmaker, impress us with the illusion of design and planning.” Richard Dawkins – “The Blind Watchmaker” – 1986 – page 21 Michael Behe – Life Reeks Of Design – 2010 – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hdh-YcNYThY
Moreover, Richards Dawkins is far from the only atheist who seems to be afflicted with this mental illness of seeing the ‘illusion of design’ pervasively throughout life (and nature). (And I note that these atheists are seeing ‘the appearance of design’ even though they have never conducted any scientific experiments, or mathematical calculations, to scientifically ‘detect design’ in life, in anything man-made, or in anything otherwise)
living organisms “appear to have been carefully and artfully designed” Lewontin “The appearance of purposefulness is pervasive in nature.” George Gaylord Simpson
Indeed, the atheist Francis Crick, co-discoverer of DNA, seems to have been particularly haunted by this mental illness of seeing the 'illusion of design' everywhere he looked in molecular biology and fought valiantly to fight those delusions off:
“Biologists must constantly keep in mind that what they see was not designed, but rather evolved.” Francis Crick – What Mad Pursuit “Organisms appear as if they had been designed to perform in an astonishingly efficient way, and the human mind therefore finds it hard to accept that there need be no Designer to achieve this” Francis Crick – What Mad Pursuit – p. 30
Moreover,
Design Thinking Is Hardwired in the Human Brain. How Come? – October 17, 2012 Excerpt: “Even Professional Scientists Are Compelled to See Purpose in Nature, Psychologists Find.” The article describes a test by Boston University’s psychology department, in which researchers found that “despite years of scientific training, even professional chemists, geologists, and physicists from major universities such as Harvard, MIT, and Yale cannot escape a deep-seated belief that natural phenomena exist for a purpose” ,,, Most interesting, though, are the questions begged by this research. One is whether it is even possible to purge teleology from explanation. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/10/design_thinking065381.html
Thus, since these atheists are seeing the ‘illusion of design’, (seeing this illusion of design with what they claim to be the ‘illusion of mind’ I might add :) ), without ever conducting any scientific experiments or mathematical calculation to ever rigorously ‘detect design’, or ever providing any real-time empirical evidence that unguided material processes are capable of producing this 'appearance of design', then of course the ID advocate would be well justified in saying that these atheists are not really suffering from a mental illness at all, of 'seeing illusions of design', but they are in fact perfectly mentally healthy and are ‘naturally detecting REAL design’ because of the inherent ‘image of God’ that they have within themselves. Verse and Music:
Romans 1:19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. George Strait - I Saw God Today - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q06AvQF5NOw
bornagain77
March 18, 2015
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Silver Asiatic: researchers like Robert Shapiro. Shapiro points to energy-driven networks of small molecules as a plausible precursor. Is that your position?Zachriel
March 18, 2015
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Silver Asiatic: you think there is considerable evidence supporting abiogenesis. That tells us a lot about how you interpret evidence. I’ll put it this way, I wouldn’t call your view exactly objective and unbiased. We pointed to specific empirical findings. We have overwhelming evidence that all life evolved from a primitive unicellular common ancestor. Given that, and given evidence that molecules can self-replicate, abiogenesis has considerable evidence. http://molbio.mgh.harvard.edu/szostakweb/ ETA: Desnarkified comment.Zachriel
March 18, 2015
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Zach
Given that, and given evidence that molecules can self-replicate, abiogenesis has considerable evidence.
Ok, you think there is considerable evidence supporting abiogenesis. That tells us a lot about how you interpret evidence. I'll put it this way, I wouldn't call your view exactly objective and unbiased. Susan Mazur's new book offers an alternative view. As do researchers like Robert Shapiro.Silver Asiatic
March 18, 2015
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Meanwhile, I'm still waiting for Kairosfocus's answer to my old question. Any other resident geniuses are welcome to help KF.
Let’s imagine a constant-size population of replicators in which every new generation consists of individuals 10 times “more specified” (10 times less probable) than members of the parent generation. Let’s further assume that the generation cycle is one year. The resampling of the population reduces its entropy from generation to generation (by eliminating most of the microstates). Is the actual flux of entropy on Earth sufficient to allow for such a decrease?
[Supplement: Let's make the size of the population really large, comparable with the total number of prokaryotes on Earth; say, 10^30. I will be satisfied by any ballpark figure, as long as it's based on sound calculations.] This exercise, though not quite original, is instructive. It shows how life beats low probabilities. No coin tossing and fishing reels, please, just the maths. EA: Piotr, though not directed at me, I would note that your challenge is pointless, as it has no basis in reality. At least you started it with "let's imagine . . ." That part is true.Piotr
March 18, 2015
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DNA_Jock: Right on track record projection, you have used an entropy calc to distract attentoin form the statistical foundational issue relevant to FSCO/I. Red herring-strawman right there. You have not apolgised for or withdrawn schoolyard taunt distortions of FSCO/I nor do you show any reasonable responsiveness to a fact of life: FSCO/I exists, is real and relevant, is also showing how the blind chance and necessity resources of the obseved cosmos canot scratch the surface of the config space for just 125 bytes of info. Cell based life just for DNA requires 100 - 1,000 k bases of DNA. Don't even bother with insistent strawman distortions and pretending that willful misrepresentation is a right or it is not cause for serious action. You have forfeited the right to be viewed as one interested in genuine dialogue, so don't pretend that there is a real substantial issue at stake when you show intead just the opposite. For onlookers who may be confused by your rhetoric, I simply say, that a: the functionally specific complex organisation an associated information in the living cell is something that had a beginning, b: is thus contingent and requires explanation on adequate cause -- whatever dismissive rhetoric Piotr may wish to try to tag and dismiss as though this were a strange peculiarity of WL Craig -- and so c: the required information rich constructive work needs adequate explanation on an empirically warranted adequate cause. Where d: The only such is intelligently directed configuration, aka design, to the point where e: FSCO/I is a reliable sign of design as cause. Where f: the statistical underpinnings of 2LOT (which are inextricable from the meaning of the law since 100 years past nd people like Gibbs< Boltzmann and co) confirm this point. That is, g: as Granville Sewell aptly observed long since:
. . . The second law is all about probability, it uses probability at the microscopic level to predict macroscopic change: the reason carbon distributes itself more and more uniformly in an insulated solid is, that is what the laws of probability predict when diffusion alone is operative. The reason natural forces may turn a spaceship, or a TV set, or a computer into a pile of rubble but not vice-versa is also probability: of all the possible arrangements atoms could take, only a very small percentage could fly to the moon and back, or receive pictures and sound from the other side of the Earth, or add, subtract, multiply and divide real numbers with high accuracy. The second law of thermodynamics is the reason that computers will degenerate into scrap metal over time, and, in the absence of intelligence, the reverse process will not occur; and it is also the reason that animals, when they die, decay into simple organic and inorganic compounds, and, in the absence of intelligence, the reverse process will not occur. The discovery that life on Earth developed through evolutionary "steps," coupled with the observation that mutations and natural selection -- like other natural forces -- can cause (minor) change, is widely accepted in the scientific world as proof that natural selection -- alone among all natural forces -- can create order out of disorder, and even design human brains, with human consciousness. Only the layman seems to see the problem with this logic. In a recent Mathematical Intelligencer article ["A Mathematician's View of Evolution," The Mathematical Intelligencer 22, number 4, 5-7, 2000] I asserted that the idea that the four fundamental forces of physics alone could rearrange the fundamental particles of Nature into spaceships, nuclear power plants, and computers, connected to laser printers, CRTs, keyboards and the Internet, appears to violate the second law of thermodynamics in a spectacular way.1 . . . . What happens in a[n isolated] system depends on the initial conditions; what happens in an open system depends on the boundary conditions as well. As I wrote in “Can ANYTHING Happen in an Open System?”, “order can increase in an open system, not because the laws of probability are suspended when the door is open, but simply because order may walk in through the door…. If we found evidence that DNA, auto parts, computer chips, and books entered through the Earth’s atmosphere at some time in the past, then perhaps the appearance of humans, cars, computers, and encyclopedias on a previously barren planet could be explained without postulating a violation of the second law here . . . But if all we see entering is radiation and meteorite fragments, it seems clear that what is entering through the boundary cannot explain the increase in order observed here.” Evolution is a movie running backward, that is what makes it special. THE EVOLUTIONIST, therefore, cannot avoid the question of probability by saying that anything can happen in an open system, he is finally forced to argue that it only seems extremely improbable, but really isn’t, that atoms would rearrange themselves into spaceships and computers and TV sets . . .
h: That is, unless energy and work flows and exhaustion of depleted degraded waste energy and materials are relvently connected to the step by step constructive work, they are irrelevant. And: i: The material issue then is not mere quantities but he statistical underpinnings and the implication that entropy is in effect a metric of average missing info to specify macrostate given macro-state. with j: FSCO/I rich functional configs being very tightly constrained relative to all clumped at random possibilities, much less the scattered ones. Indeed k: the 1.07*10^301 possibilities for a Nash string of 1,000 coins is just the clumped at random set; if we incorporate the possibilities for scattering just across a pond or a vat there are vastly more. l: So, to clump the string is itself a hug challenge, much less to organise it into say the ascii code for the first 143 characters of this comment. m: So, thank you, I am a statistical miracle skeptic. Wen we see signs of serious grappling with these issues, then we know we have someone to discuss with. I continue to predict, red herrings, strawman caricatures soaked in ad hominenms and set alight through subtle or blatant hit-the-man rhetoric. Revealing just what we are dealing with here. G'day. KF KFkairosfocus
March 18, 2015
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And because we don't know everything about that, doesn't mean we should jump in to conclusions, saying "God did it". I could say the same about your "god hypothesis": you don't know everything. How the hell did your God did all of that? What were the processes involved? You don't know? So, god didn't do it! I chose the natural origin of life hypothesis, because the alternative is to postulate the existence of a god without independent confirmation and the hypothesis itself has nothing useful. No processes involved. Nothing.Missy
March 18, 2015
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«If there is no other explanation then what was the cause?» - Some more or less stepwise process, probably... just like Piotr explained.Missy
March 18, 2015
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Missy If there is no other explanation then what was the cause? You can not shy away from the reality forever..... That is not in your best interest......Andre
March 18, 2015
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Creationists, YOU're in denial. You have a religious agenda and you have to spread the word: your God did it no matter what. EA: If you have an argument to make as to how life arose through natural processes, great, please make it. Also, please feel free to read up on the design inference so that you understand the structure of the design argument.Missy
March 18, 2015
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CJYman: But merely pointing out that there exists either sufficient energy flow and/or sufficient disorganization elsewhere does nothing to explain how this specific instance of organization in a direction away from equilibrium came about. That's right. While any explanation has to be consistent with the 2nd law of thermodynamics, mere consistency is not an explanation. CJYman: These millions of years of evolution must create a secondary CPU within the previous system that is capable of modeling its surroundings and generating internal plans for the doghouse which are used to control actuators that build the doghouse. So, we are stuck in a loop. What loop? It appears to be a progressive change, not a loop. CJYman: Why not just bet on the sun whipping up a doghouse in the first place? Because the evidence indicates that humans built the doghouse, and that humans and dogs evolved from common ancestors. CJYman: How do some systems travel in an extended direction far from equilibrium at seemingly insurmountable odds while still following 2LOT. Snowstorms are far from equilibrium. Are you confused about snow? CJYman: Where is the 2LOT compensation in the generation of such a system? The plant absorbs sunlight using this energy to generate sugars and then proteins. From that it produces seeds. CJYman: If this is indeed the case, of which I am not yet convinced, then we will still need to find that factor which allows highly improbable organization to reach far from equilibrium states since mere energy flow (not specifically guided) is apparently not up to the task either theoretically or experimentally. Evolution. Collin: From what I have seen, science is not filling in the gaps but increasing them. That's right! Every missing link discovered makes two more gaps! Collin: When you have a credible answer to dead chemicals becoming replicating life get back to me. We have overwhelming evidence that all life evolved from a primitive unicellular common ancestor. Given that, and given evidence that molecules can self-replicate, abiogenesis has considerable evidence. http://molbio.mgh.harvard.edu/szostakweb/Zachriel
March 18, 2015
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Piotr is in the last stage, full scale denial..... Question for you; Piotr, can Piotr come into existence without a cause?Andre
March 18, 2015
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«that’s a red herring led away to a strawman caricature...» No strawman here. Just me telling him/her how to be an intellectually fulfilled creationist (I've seen creationists making this kind of argument before, and if you're not one of them, you shouldn't be so agitated, because the comment wasn't directed to you and doesn't fit you). Now try to say the whole phrase very fast... lol. As for the rest, Piotr already did a good job explaining what kind of thing may also produce such amounts of information (low probability, 'cause, basically, every creationist argument ends up in "tornado probability").Missy
March 18, 2015
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I am glad to see kf does concede @89 that
there are many orders of magnitude differences in energy flow level and entropy number values between microscale configs to give FSCO/I and something like melting an ice cube
Again, not really an ice “cube”: by my reckoning, if I melted the amount of water necessary to account for the information content of the human genome every second it would take me a year to melt 1.5 micrograms of water. So this acme of creation is equivalent (in terms of informational entropy) to the melting of an invisible speck of ice. Please take Sal’s advice and stop using 2LoT arguments; they make you look bad. Regarding kf’s “context” @70, I refer onlookers to my original response the first time he made these statements https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/evolution-driven-by-laws-not-random-mutations/#comment-526864 Onlookers can see that kf did claim that the lack of independence between AAs is not material, so defacing my post with the false accusation that my claim was “made up out of whole cloth”, followed by his closing the thread (which was entitled “Piotr (and KS, DNA_Jock…”), and finally editing the OP of the closed thread, does seem a bit, err, dictatorial. Asked about the fact that KS has been silently “disappeared”, kf replies @103
I don’t know what the case is with KS, or if it has anything to do with UD Management (there have been vanishings projected on UD leadership that were dirty tricks).
Uh-huh. But onlookers will understand that all these steps, though unpleasant, are “necessary to maintain good order”. Is it just me, or is it chilly in here? Kf @ 90
PS: I should note I inserted a little test in 123 in the previous thread, that seems to have been failed on one or more of several possible levels.
Let’s see, you have inserted 2,458 words into the OP after you closed comments on the thread. A “little test” of your ability to cut & paste, it appears. And you complain that I repeat myself. Sheesh.DNA_Jock
March 18, 2015
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Everything that begins to exist has a cause...
Let's leave this scholastic mumbo-jumbo to William Lane Craig. This is not how the laws of physics are expressed. I can't tell you whether I accept or reject your "law" because I don't know what it is and how it could be tested.Piotr
March 18, 2015
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Piotr As Louis Pasteur affirmed, life only comes from life, and life only produces life after its own kind. This scientific fact is indisputable and none of the hundreds of experimental tests have yet disproved this scientific Law. Prominent marine biologist and evolutionist, Martin Moe, admitted: “A century of sensational discoveries in the biological sciences has taught us that life arises only from life. Abiogenesis is not possible” Cause and effect is the absolute truth in this universe science itself is meaningless without it.... Again science is to learn and understand... WHAT CAUSES WHAT......Andre
March 18, 2015
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F/N: denial of causality and linked foundations of logic is a gateway for injecting irrational and self-contradictory ideologies and for presenting the notion that we can get something from nothing for no reason. If you doubt me look up how Marxists often spoke concerning "contradictions," and how this propagated subtly across their system . . . especially on missing the importance of entrepreneurship, management, creativity and even the fact that the info to regulate an economy is inextricably distributed across people scattered far and wide, undermining central planning decisively. KFkairosfocus
March 18, 2015
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Missy, that's a red herring led away to a strawman caricature soaked in ad homs and set alight. The issue is not we don't know and fill in God in so-called gaps. We DO know on trillions of cases what causes FSCO/I in our experience. Intelligently directed configuration. We know that config spaces of relevant scope cannot reasonably be searched via blind needle in haystack strategies or processes. We do know on stat underpinnings of 2LOT inextricably involved in our understanding of same for 100+ years that chance factors at micro, molecular level -- hoped for source of highly informational and functionally specific configs -- is going to push strongly to dominant, gibberish clusters. So, statistical miracles are a forlorn hope clung to and desperately defended (like the labour theory of value) because it is what you have. Instead we know from Venter et al, that design of molecular nanostructures and components of life is possible and that FSCO/I is routinely created by design, a proved adequate cause. That is, we have an adequate causal process per vera causa. And, we have good reason to see that per a trillion member knowledge base, FSCO/I is a strong inductive sign of design. No credible counter-instances that are actually observed can be brought forth. Many tried, typically presenting overlooked design. In fact, it is not seriously doubted that FSCO/I is characteristic of design as cause. Except, where a priori imposition of the self-referentially incoherent ideology of evolutionary materialist scientism is in the stakes. KFkairosfocus
March 18, 2015
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Piotr.... Seriously, are you denying the law of causality? Then how did you come to be? How did life come to be? Planets? Solar Systems? Galaxies? The universe? You can not refute this statement, because it is logically sound. Everything that begins to exist has a cause.....Andre
March 18, 2015
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#101 Andre, No, Russell was not a religious nut, and if you read his full critique of the concept (rather than quote-mine him), you will discover that Russell eventually rejects "the law of causation" as an a priori principle. Still no formulation, only irrelevant links, quotations, and attempts to change the topic. Where's the law of physics called "the Law of Causality"? How shall I discuss something you can't even formulate?Piotr
March 18, 2015
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Cross, you should add (to this part "The discovery of the incredibly complex machinery in every cell, the complex dna code and machinery to use it to build and maintain life has only widened the gaps."): And therefore God did it. Then, you'd be an intellectually fulfilled creationist.Missy
March 18, 2015
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Cross, very well said. KFkairosfocus
March 18, 2015
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TA, I don't know what the case is with KS, or if it has anything to do with UD Management (there have been vanishings projected on UD leadership that were dirty tricks). I do know that there is a problem of trollish misconduct on the part of too many objectors, which is the direct context for my closing a discussion and for my shift tot he mode of dealing with an agenda based on an ill-founded ideology rather than hoping that I am dealing with genuine dialogue and mere disagreements. I had to deal with Marxists, and that is what it was like. Needless to say, it is not a category that gives any reasonable person any pleasure to have to address in the way that is necessary to maintain good order. KFkairosfocus
March 18, 2015
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Piotr @ 86 You have once again avoided the hard bits. OOL research has turned up no credible answer from a materialist perspective after many many years. Lots of just so stories like the RNA world etc. but no answers. From what I have seen, science is not filling in the gaps but increasing them. The discovery of the incredibly complex machinery in every cell, the complex dna code and machinery to use it to build and maintain life has only widened the gaps. When you have a credible answer to dead chemicals becoming replicating life get back to me. CheersCross
March 18, 2015
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Piotr This is pay walled but you should have access http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-94-011-5516-8_2 Love this from Bertrand Russell "The law of causation, according to which later events can theoretically be predicted by means of earlier events, has often been held to be a priori, a necessity of thought, a category without which science would not be possible." (Russell, External World p.179) He was not a religious nut was he Piotr?Andre
March 18, 2015
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Andre, if you don't know how the Law of Causality is formulated in modern physics (as opposed to, say Newtonian metaphysics), don't worry. There is no such law, so you can't know it. Just admit it and we'll be fine.Piotr
March 18, 2015
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#97 It isn't the Law of Causality, Andre, but the definition of a "causal system". A definition isn't a law; try again.Piotr
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