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God and Science Redux: Lawrence Krauss

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A friend alerted me to this piece by Lawrence Krauss from the Wall Street Journal.

Krauss writes:

“J.B.S. Haldane, an evolutionary biologist and a founder of population genetics, understood that science is by necessity an atheistic discipline. As Haldane so aptly described it, one cannot proceed with the process of scientific discovery if one assumes a “god, angel, or devil” will interfere with one’s experiments. God is, of necessity, irrelevant in science.

Faced with the remarkable success of science to explain the workings of the physical world, many, indeed probably most, scientists understandably react as Haldane did. Namely, they extrapolate the atheism of science to a more general atheism.”

No surprise here. But he concludes with

“Finally, it is worth pointing out that these issues are not purely academic. The current crisis in Iran has laid bare the striking inconsistency between a world built on reason and a world built on religious dogma.”

Perhaps the most important contribution an honest assessment of the incompatibility between science and religious doctrine can provide is to make it starkly clear that in human affairs — as well as in the rest of the physical world — reason is the better guide.”

Reason is a better guide than what? Religion? Which religion? All religions? What empircal data does Krauss have to back up this, supposedly, scientific claim. For that matter, what precisely does it mean for reason to be a “better guide”? Better how? This is just another example of a scientist making unsubstantiated philosophical statements in the name of science. It would be interesting to hear how Krauss would explain what went wrong with “reason” with such well known atheists like Stalin or Hitler. How was “reason” a better guide with those guys? Perhaps Krauss could begin by telling us what he means by “reason” in the first place.

It always amazes me how those who claim the high road of science and scientific reasoning so easily abandon the basic rules of logic and reason when it doesn’t seem to suit their argument. He could start by telling us how he knows scientifically that the properties of the cosmos are such that no deity (assuming a deity exists), could take any action whatsoever that would have empirical consequences in what we call Nature, even in principle. If Krauss has no scientific answer to that question (and he doesn’t), then how does he know that the properties of our cosmos are such that miracles can not take place, even in principle? Just because science tells us how babies are formed and born does not mean that in one instance, at least, something quite extraordinary took place. Just because Krauss and his fellow atheists don’t accept such things as true or even possbile doesn’t mean they aren’t. And appealing to science is of little help to his case, since neither he nor anyone else has come up with a detailed, testable, (and potenitally falsifiable) scientific model that eliminates the possibility of miracles from ever occuring in Nature.

Comments
Upright:
Mere, Then why don’t you [allow your beliefs to be subject to falsification in light of the evidence]?
I do. See my reply to you here. You seem to have made some unwarranted assumptions about my beliefs.mereologist
July 2, 2009
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Well I have a very different take on the bible than most people do: Strange But True It was in the summer of 1993, I was down and out in Ft. Myers, Florida. This was about the second year that I was homeless. I was staying at the Salvation Army in Ft. Myers working temporary day labor and paying 8 bucks a night to stay at the homeless shelter. Once again I had come up with yet another grand plan to defeat the destructive desires for drinking and using that had kept me bound to the street. I was going to read the Bible cover to cover. Surely, this would cure me once and for all. Every night before I would go to sleep I made sure that I would read though at least 30 minutes worth of the Bible. This was done in my bunk in the open dormitory of the salvation army. Well, after a month or 6 weeks of this, I was getting pretty far into the Bible and had pretty much established myself, among the guys staying there, as some sort of Jesus Freak. One evening a man, who like me wasn't fairing to well in this world, comes up to my bunk, as I was reading the Bible, and angrily says this to me," Where Is God? Just where is God ? If I knew where God was my life would be alright." So I told him the truth "Well I know that it may sound strange, but sometimes when I really need it, God speaks directly to me from the Bible. I believe that He may speak directly to you since you seem to be in a bad spot." Then I closed the Bible and handed it to him. Then he asks me “Do you mean like this?” and he just randomly opens the Bible up, but instead of gently reading the first words his eyes landed on, as I thought he would do, he went and stabbed his finger down onto the page that the Bible had fell open to. Then, he looks over to me and asks "Like That?" I nervously said, in spite of my reservations of the brazenness of his act, "I guess that will work". Well his brazenness paid off for his finger landed right on top of Job 23:3 which says "Oh, that I knew where I might find God, that I might come to His seat!" Well, needless to say, we both were in awe about God revealing Himself to him in the Living Word that clearly, so we went to the chaplain of the Salvation Army and got him his very own Bible. Let me end this by saying that I believe God speaks to all people in many different ways. Don't be upset if God doesn't speak in this certain way to you. He very well could be speaking to you in ways that He doesn't speak to other people in. He could speak through your dreams, or visions, or He could speak to you through people. He could be in that still small, intuitive, voice in your mind that speaks warnings to you every so often, or T.V., or radio, or the clouds, or even a lightning bolt could express His feelings and guidance to you, or etc... etc... . The point I'm trying to make clear is this. I'm firmly convinced that God does indeed desire to speak to each and every one of us, His children! BUT, we have to open our minds up enough to allow the possibility that God, the Father of all creation, might actually care enough for us, His children ,to actually want to speak intimately to each of us. Think about it. What parent doesn't talk personally to each one of their very own children every once in a while? I truly believe it is a very powerful thing to have the Lord speak into our lives, more powerful than we can possibly understand right now. My reasoning for this is this: He who speaks living words into the voids of our life, Is the very same One who spoke living words into the void of the night. --------- Scientific Evidence For God Creating The Universe - 2008 - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQhO906v0VM Explaining Information Transfer in Quantum Teleportation: Armond Duwell †‡ University of Pittsburgh excerpt: In contrast to a classical bit, the description of a qubit requires an infinite amount of information. The amount of information is infinite because two real numbers are required in the expansion of the state vector of a two state quantum system (Jozsa 1997, 1) --- Concept 2. is used by Bennett, et al. Recall that they infer that since an infinite amount of information is required to specify a qubit, an infinite amount of information must be transferred to teleport. http://www.cas.umt.edu/phil/faculty/duwell/DuwellPSA2K.pdf More supporting evidence for the transcendent nature of infinite information is found in these following studies: Single photons to soak up data: Excerpt: the orbital angular momentum of a photon can take on an infinite number of values. Since a photon can also exist in a superposition of these states, it could – in principle – be encoded with an infinite amount of information. http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/7201 Ultra-Dense Optical Storage -- on One Photon Excerpt: Researchers at the University of Rochester have made an optics breakthrough that allows them to encode an entire image's worth of data into a photon, slow the image down for storage, and then retrieve the image intact. http://www.physorg.com/news88439430.html This following experiment clearly shows information is not a "emergent property" of any solid material basis as is dogmatically asserted by some materialists: Converting Quantum Bits: Physicists Transfer Information Between Matter and Light excerpt: A team of physicists at the Georgia Institute of Technology has taken a significant step toward the development of quantum communications systems by successfully transferring quantum information from two different groups of atoms onto a single photon. http://gtresearchnews.gatech.edu/newsrelease/quantumtrans.htm -------------------- Even with the advantage of all our advanced space-age technology at their fingertips, all scientists can guess is that it was some type of electro-magnetic radiation (light) which is not natural to this world. Kevin Moran, a scientist working on the mysterious "3-dimensional" nature of the Shroud image, states the 'supernatural' explanation this way: "It is not a continuum or spherical-front radiation that made the image, as visible or UV light. It is not the X-ray radiation that obeys the one over R squared law that we are so accustomed to in medicine. It is more unique. It is suggested that the image was formed when a high-energy particle struck the fiber and released radiation within the fiber at a speed greater that the local speed of light. Since the fiber acts as a light pipe, this energy moved out through the fiber until it encountered an optical discontinuity, then it slowed to the local speed of light and dispersed. The fact that the pixels don’t fluoresce suggests that the conversion to their now brittle dehydrated state occurred instantly and completely so no partial products remain to be activated by the ultraviolet light. This suggests a quantum event where a finite amount of energy transferred abruptly. The fact that there are images front and back suggests the radiating particles were released along the gravity vector. The radiation pressure may also help explain why the blood was "lifted cleanly" from the body as it transformed to a resurrected state." http://www.shroudstory.com/natural.htm If scientists want to find the source for the supernatural light that made the "3-dimensional photographic negative" image I suggest they look to the thousands of documented Near-Death Experiences (NDE's) in Judeo-Christian cultures. It is in their testimonies that you will find mention of an indescribably bright “Light” or “Being of Light” who is always described as being of a much brighter intensity of light than the people had ever seen before. All people who have been in the presence of “The Being of Light” while having a deep Near Death Experience have no doubt whatsoever that the “The Being of Light” they were in the presence of is none other than “The Lord God Almighty” of heaven and earth. (It should be noted: All non-Judeo-Christian foreign culture NDE's, I have studied, have a extreme rarity of encounters with "The Being Of Light"(Todd Murphy - NDE study) In The Presence Of Almighty God - The NDE of Mickey Robinson - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRpbNgBn8XY The Day I Died - Part 4 of 6 - The NDE of Pam Reynolds - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WA37uNa3VGU Another very interesting point is, since the Shroud had to be extremely close to the body when the image was made, and also considering the lack of any distinctive shadow patterns on the image, it is apparent the only place this supernatural light could have possibly come from was directly from the body itself ! Yes, you read that last sentence right: THE SOURCE OF LIGHT WAS THE BODY ITSELF !!! God's crowning achievement for this universe was not when He created this universe. God’s crowning achievement for this universe was when He Himself inhabited the human body He had purposely created the whole universe for, to sanctify human beings unto Himself through the death and resurrection of his “Son” Jesus Christ. This is truly something that should fill anyone who reads this with awe. The wonder of it all is something that I can scarcely begin to understand much less write about. Thus, I will finish this portion of my paper with a scripture. Hebrews 2:14-15 "Since we, God's children, are human beings - made of flesh and blood - He became flesh and blood too by being born in human form; for only as a human being could He die and in dying break the power of the devil who had the power of death. Only in that way could He deliver those who through fear of death have been living all their lives as slaves to constant dread." --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- He's Alive - Dolly Parton - 1989 CMA - music video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXo8qOcS3yQbornagain77
July 2, 2009
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Mere, Then why don't you?Upright BiPed
July 2, 2009
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tribune7, like everybody, I make my own judgements on what's true. I tend to view the bible as varying considerably: some parts (Esther, Job, the story of Samson) are clearly fiction and even more or less delivered as such, some gospels (Mark) have a decent amount of historical material but others (John) almost none. I think the birth narratives of Matthew and Luke are clearly fiction, that Matthew's gospel as a whole is largely midrash, and that the meeting with the woman at the well in John 4 is entirely literary convention. I think the Jesus of the Gospel of John resembles the others almost not at all. Too much information? ;-)David Kellogg
July 2, 2009
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Barb, I typically use the NRSV. NASB was the first Bible I read through, though now it seems kind of wooden. I like Jerusalem's approach to poetry, and (by extension) to the Gospel of John. (I was drawn to the Jerusalem Bible because my mother is a French-Canadian catholic and I had a French bible as a child; the Jerusalem Bible was originally an English version of a French translation.) I love the Scholar's Version of the curses on the Pharisees in Luke. I no longer read the NIV.David Kellogg
July 2, 2009
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Upright wrote:
“using their mind to the best of their ability?” Would that include allowing their beliefs (at least those made in the name of empirical science) to be subject to falsification by the evidence?
Of course.mereologist
July 2, 2009
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Barb wrote:
Mereologist: You claim that the explanations I posted were unbelievable. Is that an objective statement or is that your default since you are no longer a Christian?
The explanations you posted were far, far less plausible than simply acknowledging that the gospels contradict each other. And you never did explain why the gospels have Jesus dying on different days. See below for more on this. Even many Christians -- including Christian biblical scholars -- acknowledge that the Bible is not inerrant. These people would be happy -- overjoyed, in fact -- if we actually had access to a book that contained the inerrant word of God. However, honesty prevents them from making that claim about the Bible. They've seen the evidence, and they can't ignore it. Bart Ehrman, whom I mentioned above, is an interesting example. He started out as an evangelical Christian and an inerrantist, studied at Moody and Wheaton, and then went on to the Princeton Theological Seminary. He writes:
And so I came to Princeton Theological Seminary young and poor but passionate, and armed to take on all those liberals with their watered-down view of the Bible. As a good evangelical Christian I was ready to fend off any attacks on my biblical faith. I could answer any apparent contradiction and resolve any potential discrepancy in the Word of God, whether in the Old or New Testament. I knew I had a lot to learn, but I was not about to learn that my sacred text had any mistakes in it. Some things don't go as planned. What I actually did learn at Princeton led me to change my mind about the Bible. I did not change my mind willingly -- I went down kicking and screaming. I prayed (lots) about it, I wrestled (strenuously) with it, I resisted it with all my might. But at the same time I thought that if I was fully committed to God, I also had to be fully committed to the truth. And it became clear to me over a long period of time that my former views of the Bible as the inerrant revelation from God were flat-out wrong. My choice was either to hold on to views that I had come to realize were in error or to follow where I believed the truth was leading me. In the end, it was no choice. If something was true, it was true; if not, not.
He's right. The truth matters.
And, no, you don’t understand the gospel of John better than I do. After all, I’m still a believer...
As if being a believer were proof of understanding.
...and you’re hung up over a simple sentence.
Yeah, it's not like Jesus' death is important to Christians or anything. Who cares when it happened? What's the big deal? Sarcasm aside, you claim that the Bible is inerrant. That means you are making the extraordinary assertion that the Bible contains no errors -- none! In evaluating that claim, of course it matters whether the gospels agree on the day of Jesus' death. Interestingly, though you claim that the Bible is inerrant, you seem to have admitted the opposite in a prior comment. From earlier in the thread:
I wrote:
Nothing in your comment explains why the Gospels depict Jesus as dying on different days. Can you explain, in your own words, why you don’t see this as a contradiction?
Barb answered:
I explained this above. Part of the reason that I think is the apostle John’s recall. He probably wrote his gospel many years after the events.
Barb, You haven’t thought this through. If the Gospel of John is incorrect due to a failure of recall, then the Bible isn’t inerrant! You’ve completely contradicted yourself.
What was that all about? It sounds like you were admitting that the Gospel of John was wrong due to John's failing memory. Are you an inerrantist or not?mereologist
July 2, 2009
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Ditto to what upright saidbornagain77
July 2, 2009
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David-- I like the Bible. I have nothing against it. It has lots of consistencies, and lots of inconsistencies. But you are not addressing my point :-) At what point do you start considering the consistencies to be true, or at least likely?tribune7
July 2, 2009
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"using their mind to the best of their ability?" Would that include allowing their beliefs (at least those made in the name of empirical science) to be subject to falsification by the evidence?Upright BiPed
July 2, 2009
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bornagain77 writes:
As a Christian why should I trust anything you have to say?
First, if it isn't obvious to you, unbelievers are just as moral as believers. Ask George Barna. Second, I'm not asking you to take me at my word. Double-check what I say. Read Mark 14 and John 19. You'll see that they do indeed describe Jesus' death as happening on different days.
You did not even hedge you position by saying it seems improbable that He conquered death, you just flat out denied Him!
I deny that Jesus is Lord in the same sense that I deny that Russell's teapot is out there orbiting between Earth and Mars. I can't disprove either one, but they both seem highly unlikely.
I implore you to closely examine the shroud evidence I presented with a critical eye and a open mind, for the Bible also says Christ will deny those who deny Him.
It's interesting that evangelical Christians profess to believe in a perfectly loving God, but then they turn around and say that God will reject (or even torment eternally) anyone who rejects Christianity because it appears untrue to him or her. That's not exactly what I would call "perfectly loving". Why would a loving God reject someone for using their mind to the best of their ability?mereologist
July 2, 2009
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David Kellogg: What's your take on the NRSV vs the NASB? I like the Jerusalem Bible myself. I've read the Living Bible, but I don't generally gravitate to paraphrased versions. I also have the Septuagint and Vine's Expository Dictionary. Mereologist: You claim that the explanations I posted were unbelievable. Is that an objective statement or is that your default since you are no longer a Christian? I ask because in this thread I've been told repeatedly that I'm not objective. Are the atheists/agnostics posting here also being subjective with respect to what they read and what they believe? The argument cuts both ways. And, no, you don't understand the gospel of John better than I do. After all, I'm still a believer and you're hung up over a simple sentence. Missing the point =/= understanding.Barb
July 2, 2009
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As a Christian why should I trust anything you have to say? 1 John 2:22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? You did not even hedge you position by saying it seems improbable that He conquered death, you just flat out denied Him! I implore you to closely examine the shroud evidence I presented with a critical eye and a open mind, for the Bible also says Christ will deny those who deny Him.bornagain77
July 2, 2009
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mereologist, Do you deny Jesus is Lord?
If it isn't already obvious, yes. I am no longer a Christian.mereologist
July 2, 2009
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mereologist, Do you deny Jesus is Lord?bornagain77
July 2, 2009
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I wrote:
Many of the explanations [of inerrantists] are so strained as to be unbelievable.
Barb replied:
So, in other words, the explanations aren’t palatable to you. Fine.
I didn't say they were unpalatable. I said they were unbelievable. There is a huge difference.
The fact that you missed the entire point of the book of John (the gospel account) showing that Jesus was the Messiah stands. You can’t see the forest for the trees.
Ironically, I may actually understand the point of the gospel of John better than you do, because I can offer a plausible reason for the discrepancy between John and Mark. As Bart Ehrman explains in his book Jesus, Interrupted:
John is the only Gospel that indicates that Jesus is "the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world." This is declared by John the Baptist at the very beginning of the narrative (John 1:29) and again six verses later (John 1:35). Why, then, did John -- our latest Gospel -- change the day and time when Jesus died? It may be because in John's Gospel, Jesus is the Passover Lamb, whose sacrifice brings salvation from sins. Exactly like the Passover Lamb, Jesus has to die on the day (the day of Preparation) and the time (sometime after noon) when the Passover lambs were being slaughtered in the Temple. In other words, John has changed a historical datum in order to make a theological point: Jesus is the sacrificial lamb. And to convey this theological point, John has had to create a discrepancy between his account and the others.
I wrote:
Wouldn’t you expect a perfect God to produce something better than the Bible?
You responded:
Not if he used human writers with all their foibles. He could have had angels write the Bible, but He didn’t. The writers’ humanity comes across when they describe their feelings or the circumstances they found themselves in as well as the candor with which they admit their mistakes. That, for me, was one reason why I accepted the Bible.
How odd. I would think that you would accept a book as the word of God because it appeared divine, not because it appeared human. After all, there are millions of books that appear human. Nothing special about that.
Quick question: have you ever sat down and studied the Bible yourself? Or at least read it?
Yes. I was raised as an inerrantist, and ironically it was when I started studying the Bible seriously that I began to have doubts. I was shocked at the blatant errors and contradictions I found. I think that if we could get every evangelical Christian to read the entire Bible (no cherry-picking) with an open mind, the number of inerrantists would drop dramatically.mereologist
July 2, 2009
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This following video shows one reason why I personally know there is much more going on than what the materialistic philosophy would lead us to believe: Miracle Testimony - One Easter Sunday Sunrise Service http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tj0L5dwuX0g Proverbs 8:27 "When He prepared the heavens, I was there, when He drew a circle on the face of the deep", Euler's Number - God Created Mathematics - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IEb1gTRo74 This related website has the complete working out of the math of Pi and e in the Bible, in the Hebrew and Greek languages: http://www.biblemaths.com/pag03_pie/ Michael Denton - Mathematical Truths Are Transcendent And Beautiful - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3zcJfcdAyEbornagain77
July 2, 2009
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After realizing the sheer depth to which deception is sold as science in evolution, I know for a fact I cannot trust evolutionary biologists. Whereas my realization in the accuracy and truthfulness of the Bible has grown dramatically. This is because I do not deliberately seek to discredit the bible from the start of investigation but try to build from the base, of what can be accurately known, up and let the weight of evidence carry the argument of the issue instead of starting from known weak areas trying to tear it down as Noel is trying to do. This is not fair to the evidence and reveals a bias prior to investigation that reflects the heart of the "seeker". The Scientific Method Proves Bible Prophecy and Authenticity - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1MdNLj0hPo The Physical Ashen Remains Of Sodom and Gomorrah and The Real Reason God Destroyed Them - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yf8aUk1C-SQ Shroud Of Turin Carbon Dating Overturned By Scientific Peer Review - Robert Villarreal - Press Release video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEJPrMGksUg Turin Shroud Hologram Reveals The Words "The Lamb" - short video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XLcdaFKzYg A Quantum Hologram of Christ’s Resurrection? http://www.khouse.org/articles/2008/847bornagain77
July 2, 2009
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Glance on the shelf for bibles I currently own: * NIV * Open Bible (early 80s study bible, NASB) * New Jerusalem Bible * MacArthur Study Bible, NKJV * Harper Collins Study Bible, NRSV * Oxford Annotated Bible, NRSV Also extrabiblical texts including Complete Gospels (Scholar's Translation of canonical and noncanonical early Christian texts), Other Bible (Willis Barnstone's collection of apocrypha). Also Oxford Companion to the Bible etc.David Kellogg
July 2, 2009
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Quick question: have you ever sat down and studied the Bible yourself? Or at least read it?
I know you asked that of mereologist, but since mereologist and I agree, I'll say for me: oh yeah. I've studied the bible, I've read it through dozens of times, in several translations (KJV, NASB, NIV, RSV, NRSV, Jerusalem Bible etc.), and with many commentaries including inerrantist ones. I wore out study bibles with highlighters and colored pens. I had to get a special version of the NIV with really wide margins so I had room for my pencilled notes. I was myself an inerrantist for a number of years, and my rejection of that view does not come from ignorance of its arguments.David Kellogg
July 2, 2009
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Nnoel:"In light of the above quote from you, I accuse you of LYING Barb, I am calling you a LIAR! Flat out," Sheesh ...where is the love? LOL love you all Vividvividbleau
July 2, 2009
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I have looked at both sides of the issue, and my conclusion is that the mainstream view taught in seminaries and universities all over the world is correct: the Bible contains errors and contradictions. Quick question: have you ever sat down and studied the Bible yourself? Or at least read it?Barb
July 2, 2009
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Nnoel, I thought you were gone. Guess not. take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it (Job 38:12-13) “And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed,” (Joshua 10:13) If you cannot imagine how these versus could be used as evidence of a flat earth in the centre of the universe, then you have no imagination. Or you are allowing your imagination to override logical thinking. I see no mention of the shape of the earth in either verse. Try again. "In light of the above quote from you, I accuse you of LYING Barb, I am calling you a LIAR! Flat out, demanding that you tell the truth, or stand up as THE ULTIMATE source of all knowledge on the stuff you claim to KNOW!" What? Seriously, what is your problem? You state that you won't post in here again, yet you do TWICE, and you have the nerve to call me a liar? Grow up and get over yourself. Using the dreaded CAPSLOCK OF RAGE to prove your point isn't working. I don't claim ultimate knowledge of everything, but I claim that the earth is not the center of the universe. Don't believe me? Fine. Ask an astronomer. "Umm, unless I’m very mistaken, your statement above alludes to CONTRADICTIONS in the bible! Unless it only has ONE thing to say, but it doesn’t, the bible talks of MANY things, and in the convosations about MANY things, why would a book without contradictions need to read ‘as a whole’. that makes no sense TO ME." Just because it doesn't make sense to you doesn't mean that it doesn't make sense at all. Maybe you just don't get it. My statement does not allude to contradictions. You are mistaken. The Bible does have to harmonize as a whole. Many so-called contradictions can be easily explained once the context of the verses is taken into consideration. You ask why a book would need to be read as a whole. Why not? All books have themes, whether nonfiction or fiction. The overall theme of the book is covered in the book's chapters. This is a fairly simple concept to understand. What book, if any, can you tell me shouldn't be read as a whole? What book can we take apart chapter by chapter or sentence by sentence this way? You're not describing anything logical. "Barb, you are a heretic if you claim absolute knowledge, so anytime anybody claims to have an opinion on the topic in the bible, you cannot contradict them, you can only try and persuade them, but claiming absolute knowledge on this topic is claiming you are God, and you are not sir, cause I KNOW (just as you KNOW other stuff), that there is no Zeus, Thor or Jesus." No, actually it's not, but logic doesn't seem to be your strong suit. When others in this thread have asked for evidence, I posted it. The fact that they choose to ignore it is not my problem. You know there is no Jesus? Really? So all the writers who wrote about Jesus including historian Will Durant, Tertullian, and Napoleon Bonaparte were wrong? The fact that our calendar is based on when his birth was is wrong, since he never existed? I would love to see you prove that, but you can't. Too bad. "think I’m starting to see that we are either talking a different language or you are so deluded that you only read the words that are palatable to you , skipping the bits that don’t make it through your filter that you call ‘what the real world should look like’. And it SHOULDN’T look like someone has something convincing to say against your beliefs (that you have ABSOLUTE TRUTH in your belief in god), so you ignore and pretend it was not even there." I'm not quickly shaken from my reason. I have confidence in the Bible because of corroborative evidence from history as well as science. I choose (generally) not to debate because of people like you, who stubbornly refuse to consider anyone's viewpoint other than their own. As of yet, nobody here or anywhere else on the Internet has posted anything that would remotely shake my faith. Sorry. "Barb, have YOU seen ALL religious beliefs, is that not like asking can you count the grains of sand on a beach? Which honest person would answer other than the way I have? and what type of knowledge were you expecting me to have, to claim I am ‘ignorant of a large population’, if you’d say that of me, then you should say that about most, and by your own words, I bet you have very little understanding of anything outside your beliefs, as it appears you dont even understand your own." I understand my beliefs just fine, since I am perfectly capable of defending them, as I have done here. Or do you just not bother to read what I post? I have studied Buddhism, Shintoism, Hinduism, Judaism, Islam, a few New Age-y type belief systems, and Christianity. I found that in comparison, when looked at objectively and when considering the evidence of history and science, Christianity won out. Mereologist:Many of the explanations are so strained as to be unbelievable. So, in other words, the explanations aren't palatable to you. Fine. The fact that you missed the entire point of the book of John (the gospel account) showing that Jesus was the Messiah stands. You can't see the forest for the trees. Wouldn’t you expect a perfect God to produce something better than the Bible? Not if he used human writers with all their foibles. He could have had angels write the Bible, but He didn't. The writers' humanity comes across when they describe their feelings or the circumstances they found themselves in as well as the candor with which they admit their mistakes. That, for me, was one reason why I accepted the Bible.Barb
July 2, 2009
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Nnoel, ------"If you cannot imagine how these versus could be used as evidence of a flat earth in the centre of the universe, then you have no imagination." You would certainly need a lot of imagination to see it your way. ------"In light of the above quote from you, I accuse you of LYING Barb, I am calling you a LIAR! Flat out, demanding that you tell the truth, or stand up as THE ULTIMATE source of all knowledge on the stuff you claim to KNOW!" Goodbye.Clive Hayden
July 2, 2009
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pkettley, Be respectful, I'll only tell you this once. Don't deride others here.Clive Hayden
July 2, 2009
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Nnoel, ------"Barb, you are a heretic if you claim absolute knowledge, so anytime anybody claims to have an opinion on the topic in the bible, you cannot contradict them, you can only try and persuade them, but claiming absolute knowledge on this topic is claiming you are God, and you are not sir, cause I KNOW (just as you KNOW other stuff), that there is no Zeus, Thor or Jesus." Wow. Firstly, Barb is not a heretic. Secondly, Barb might be a woman. Thirdly, you do now know that there was no Jesus. Fourthly, to claim that you do know anything, is to claim absolute knowledge of that thing, if you're going to claim that you know it fully. If you want to keep your options open and not contradict yourself, say that you "suspect" something is the case, or some such language that retains the provisionality that you're maintaining, and not that you KNOW. Otherwise, you contradict yourself.Clive Hayden
July 2, 2009
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Nnoel, ------"Barb, have YOU seen ALL religious beliefs, is that not like asking can you count the grains of sand on a beach? Which honest person would answer other than the way I have? and what type of knowledge were you expecting me to have, to claim I am ‘ignorant of a large population’, if you’d say that of me, then you should say that about most, and by your own words, I bet you have very little understanding of anything outside your beliefs, as it appears you dont even understand your own." Have you seen all religious beliefs?Clive Hayden
July 2, 2009
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I wrote:
Nothing in your comment explains why the Gospels depict Jesus as dying on different days. Can you explain, in your own words, why you don’t see this as a contradiction?
Barb answered:
I explained this above. Part of the reason that I think is the apostle John’s recall. He probably wrote his gospel many years after the events.
Barb, You haven't thought this through. If the Gospel of John is incorrect due to a failure of recall, then the Bible isn't inerrant! You've completely contradicted yourself.mereologist
July 2, 2009
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CannuckianYankee writes:
Just as there are websites that list “contradictions” in the bible, there are also websites that answer the “contradictions.”
Yes, and the question regarding any given contradiction is this: Is it more likely that the contradiction is real, and that the Bible is therefore not inerrant, or that the explanation offered by inerrantists is correct? Many of the explanations are so strained as to be unbelievable. The Gospel of Mark says that Jesus died on one day. The Gospel of John says he died on a different day. I have seen no plausible explanation of how this is not an outright contradiction. Do you have one? If not, why would you conclude that the Bible is inerrant?
For a more informed view of issues regarding the bible I suggest reading the scholarship over the past say 50 years or so.
The mainstream view of biblical scholars is that the contradictions are real and that the Bible contains errors.
Of course there are a lot of difficulites with the scriptures - one has to be blind not to admit that.
Agreed, which raises an obvious question. If the Bible is the word of a perfect God, why are there so many problems with it? Wouldn't you expect a perfect God to produce something better than the Bible?
Your either/or scenario is rather minimalist.
It is an either/or scenario. Either the Bible contains errors or it doesn't. What third alternative is there?
I would also suggest that you look at the scholarship from both sides of the issue before determining that you are right.
I have looked at both sides of the issue, and my conclusion is that the mainstream view taught in seminaries and universities all over the world is correct: the Bible contains errors and contradictions.mereologist
July 2, 2009
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tribune7, I like the Bible. I have nothing against it. It has lots of consistencies, and lots of inconsistencies. Your issue should be the with the person who insisted "the Bible cannot err."David Kellogg
July 2, 2009
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