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God and Science Redux: Lawrence Krauss

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A friend alerted me to this piece by Lawrence Krauss from the Wall Street Journal.

Krauss writes:

“J.B.S. Haldane, an evolutionary biologist and a founder of population genetics, understood that science is by necessity an atheistic discipline. As Haldane so aptly described it, one cannot proceed with the process of scientific discovery if one assumes a “god, angel, or devil” will interfere with one’s experiments. God is, of necessity, irrelevant in science.

Faced with the remarkable success of science to explain the workings of the physical world, many, indeed probably most, scientists understandably react as Haldane did. Namely, they extrapolate the atheism of science to a more general atheism.”

No surprise here. But he concludes with

“Finally, it is worth pointing out that these issues are not purely academic. The current crisis in Iran has laid bare the striking inconsistency between a world built on reason and a world built on religious dogma.”

Perhaps the most important contribution an honest assessment of the incompatibility between science and religious doctrine can provide is to make it starkly clear that in human affairs — as well as in the rest of the physical world — reason is the better guide.”

Reason is a better guide than what? Religion? Which religion? All religions? What empircal data does Krauss have to back up this, supposedly, scientific claim. For that matter, what precisely does it mean for reason to be a “better guide”? Better how? This is just another example of a scientist making unsubstantiated philosophical statements in the name of science. It would be interesting to hear how Krauss would explain what went wrong with “reason” with such well known atheists like Stalin or Hitler. How was “reason” a better guide with those guys? Perhaps Krauss could begin by telling us what he means by “reason” in the first place.

It always amazes me how those who claim the high road of science and scientific reasoning so easily abandon the basic rules of logic and reason when it doesn’t seem to suit their argument. He could start by telling us how he knows scientifically that the properties of the cosmos are such that no deity (assuming a deity exists), could take any action whatsoever that would have empirical consequences in what we call Nature, even in principle. If Krauss has no scientific answer to that question (and he doesn’t), then how does he know that the properties of our cosmos are such that miracles can not take place, even in principle? Just because science tells us how babies are formed and born does not mean that in one instance, at least, something quite extraordinary took place. Just because Krauss and his fellow atheists don’t accept such things as true or even possbile doesn’t mean they aren’t. And appealing to science is of little help to his case, since neither he nor anyone else has come up with a detailed, testable, (and potenitally falsifiable) scientific model that eliminates the possibility of miracles from ever occuring in Nature.

Comments
Kappa, Though I can empathize with your "feelings" of how a Supreme Being ought to act, I learned a while back that my feelings have very little to do with how reality is actually constructed and as such I listed some of the most rigorous foreign NDE studies available for you to study(I have more). The point is Kappa that you have put your feelings ahead of the available facts in this case. But don't believe me on this matter, it is far to important, Search for yourself.bornagain77
July 4, 2009
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Here is one experience from when I first became a “bornagain” Christian: Miracle Testimony - One Easter Sunday Sunrise Service - video Sounds like a wonderful, inspirational experience. I would think there are many Jews and Muslims who can describe events that prove their interpretation of God is real as well. And that is what leaves me confused: if God as the Abrahamic faiths define him exists, why would he allow such varying interpretations of his word? It's hard to see as a free will issue, since we supposedly know his will by him making himself known. It seems logical that part of safeguarding your word would be taking care in what you say and how you say it, to avoid misinterpretation by the people you are trying to make yourself known to. On the near death experiences, they often seem to grow out of the particular faiths the recipients have been exposed to. At least with the story of the Jewish woman you mentioned, even with the presence of what could very easily be seen as a Christ figure, I'm glad there's no sense of damnation for believing the wrong way. The interpretation of sin also seems very Jewish, with significance placed on awareness of the harm we can do to others. When I read Christian views on sin, the emphasis is usually on how it is an affront to God, and the punishment you might receive from him due to it. There doesn't seem to be much concern for the people you've actually wronged. To me, such a viewpoint is an obstacle to truly moral behavior. If you behave yourself in order to avoid a negative effect on yourself, that's more of a practical behavior than a moral one. I find myself identifying more with the Jewish view of our actions in this world, even though it doesn't come from being active in the faith. It troubles me a bit that you would refer to other religions as "pagan," though maybe you have a less harsh definition as indicated by your use of quotes. My respect and admiration for people of the Asian countries has grown stronger as I learn more of their ways and culture (the kappa is a Japanese mythological creature). The idea that hundreds of millions of people would be abandoned by God as the Christians define him disturbs me. That, rather than whatever conflicts exist between Judaism and Christianity, make it hard for me to accept such a concept of a supreme being. That doesn't mean I feel I can completely rule it out; only that I could not see such a god as being moral and just. Maybe that is what our reality actually comes down to, but I personally hope it does not.kappa
July 4, 2009
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Kappa: Here is one experience from when I first became a "bornagain" Christian: Miracle Testimony - One Easter Sunday Sunrise Service - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tj0L5dwuX0g To answer you question of other religions, I have always been fascinated with the Jewish and Muslim predicament, and could probably go into a lot of fancy theological stuff, but to cut to the chase this following excerpt from a Near Death Experience of a Jewish woman, sums up for me what appears to be happening with the Jewish people. "I arrived in an explosion of glorious light into a room with insubstantial walls, standing before a man about in his thirties, about six feet tall, reddish brown shoulder length hair and an incredibly neat, short beard and mustache. He wore a simple white robe. Light seemed to emanate from him and I felt he had great age and wisdom. He welcomed me with great love, tranquility, and peace (indescribable) - no words. I felt, "I can sit at your feet forever and be content," which struck me as a strange thing to think/say/feel. I became fascinated by the fabric of his robe, trying to figure out how light could be woven! He stood beside me and directed me to look to my left, where I was replaying my life's less complementary moments. I relived those moments and felt not only what I had done but also the hurt I had caused. Some of the things I would have never imagined could have caused pain. I was surprised that some things I may have worried about, like shoplifting a chocolate as a child, were not there, whilst casual remarks which caused hurt unknown to me at the time were counted. When I became burdened with guilt, I was directed to other events which gave joy to others, although I felt unworthy. It seemed the balance was in my favor. I received great love." http://bibleprobe.com/reneturner.htm Needless to say I was flabbergasted that she did not infer it was "the Messiah" Jesus Christ, but I was also comforted that she was brought into a "real spiritual" connection with God that far surpasses what "head knowledge" by itself can do. I am also fascinated that Jesus is not real big on proclaiming his name in these NDE's. I only know of a few instances where he does as such. As far as finding adult Muslim NDE's, which mention "the Being of Light" they are extremely rare, as are other non-Judeo-Christian cultures. In fact most non- mono-Theistic cultures have an extremely negative rate of "horrid" NDE's Near-Death Experiences in Thailand: Discussion of case histories By Todd Murphy, 1999: Excerpt: We would suggest that the near-constant comparisons with the most frequently reported types of NDEs tends to blind researchers to the features of NDEs which are absent in these NDEs. Tunnels are rare, if not absent. The panoramic Life Review appears to be absent. Instead, our collection shows people reviewing just a few karmically-significant incidents. Perhaps they symbolize behavioral tendencies, the results of which are then experienced as determinative of their rebirths. These incidents are read out to them from a book. There is no Being of Light in these Thai NDEs, although The Buddha does appear in a symbolic form, in case #6. Yama is present during this truncated Life Review, as is the Being of Light during Western life reviews, but Yama is anything but a being of light. In popular Thai depictions, he is shown as a wrathful being, and is most often remembered in Thai culture for his power to condemn one to hell. Some of the functions of Angels and guides are also filled by Yamatoots. They guide, lead tours of hell, and are even seen to grant requests made by the experient. http://www.shaktitechnology.com/thaindes.htm A Comparative view of Tibetan and Western Near-Death Experiences by Lawrence Epstein University of Washington: Excerpt: Episode 5: The OBE systematically stresses the 'das-log's discomfiture, pain, disappointment, anger and disillusionment with others and with the moral worth of the world at large. The acquisition of a yid-lus and the ability to travel instantaneously are also found here. Episode 6: The 'das-log, usually accompanied by a supernatural guide, tours bar-do, where he witnesses painful scenes and meets others known to him. They give him messages to take back. Episode 7: The 'das-log witnesses trials in and tours hell. The crimes and punishments of others are explained to him. Tortured souls also ask him to take back messages to the living. http://www.case.edu/affil/tibet/booksAndPapers/neardeath.html Thus Kappa, from my own experience, and from all evidence I can gather, I feel extremely justified in proclaiming Christianity to be true to the exclusion of other "pagan religions". And this is especially true of my attitude on this site where most of critics of ID are dogmatic atheists who trash Christianity!bornagain77
July 4, 2009
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Most people no matter what their religion, Muslim Jew etc.., would be open to this line of discussion and would not rule the possibility out of hand as he did. Thus I stand by the scripture I quoted in this matter. For it separates those who are truly seeking truth from those who are only seeking to assert their particular brand of dogmatism. There have been many Christians I've come across in online forums who identify themselves as truth seekers. Yet they are absolutely sure they know the nature of God and that those who do not believe as they do will meet a horrible and eternal fate. That strikes me as dogmatic. From what I have been reading about Judaism and Islam, devout followers in these faiths would in fact rule out the claim of Jesus as Lord based on what they believe are the true words of God. All the faiths think they have truth already, and they don't identify it as dogmatism on their part but what God has communicated to them about his nature. I know to Jews that everything about Christ and the concept of Original Sin violates what they believe has been given to them. It also seems clear those of the other Abrahamic faiths claim to experience a divine connection, which does not identify itself as Jesus. If it in fact was and chose to reveal itself as such, it would clear up a lot of confusion. To better understand your position, would you specifically identify the force that made itself known to you as Christ, or God, and what allowed you to make the distinction? So Kappa, now that you know the ins and outs of my reasoning with mere, can you deny with 100% certainty that Jesus is Lord? As a Jew by birth, the concept was not part of my upbringing. I will say that I've read the words online of many Christians who are convinced they possess absolute Truth(tm) and that all others will burn, and I find that disturbing. At the same time I question the sureness my own faith has--in fact any faith. The concept of faith seems interchangeable with religion for most people, so that they end up protecting their own dogma while casting that accusation on everyone else. Me, I've always been open to possibilities, even including there could be elements of different faiths that have some truth. So my personal answer is no, I'm not sure. I don't think that would be the response you would get from devout Jews and Muslims. Based on your earlier words, would this mean you don't trust the people of these faiths?kappa
July 3, 2009
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Mapou @ 136, I heart you too.David Kellogg
July 3, 2009
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Mapou, Did you even read the verse I quoted? It says:
You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life...
What part of "will them to your children" and "make them slaves for life" don't you understand? Why is it that Christians don't know these things about the Bible? Don't any of you read it without cherry-picking? I just don't get it. It's right there in black and white. There's nothing ambiguous about that verse. God is telling people that it is okay to buy slaves, keep them for life, and will them to your children. Don't you people find that appalling? Aren't you glad that modern societies have mostly rejected the so-called morality of the Bible?mereologist
July 3, 2009
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Kellog @135, You're a slave now. You just don't realize it.Mapou
July 3, 2009
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Mapou, if only we could have slaves like they had in the Bible, huh? /snarkDavid Kellogg
July 3, 2009
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mereologist @132, The Biblical definition of slave is a far cry from the more modern definition. Did you know that if a property owner did not have a male descendant, his slaves would inherit his property? Also, a slave (indentured servant, really) was to be set free from their contract with his owners after a certain number of years. The slave had the option to remain with his master if he so desired. Many did. Many slaves were well regarded (craftsmen, artists, etc.) and could own property. Some slaves in the Greek and Roman Empires were rather wealthy and could even acquire slaves of their own.Mapou
July 3, 2009
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Mere, You said yes to the question! What am I suppose to think? Is it not you splitting hairs by trying to backtrack? But IF you truly meant you were not sure about Christ conquering death and thus becoming Lord, I am truly sorry for I truly believe the consequences are absolutely horrific for those who deny His sovereignty and align themselves with His enemy. To me it really is as simple as this mere, I was at a really low spot in my life and I cried out to Jesus and He let Himself known to me in a way that blew my socks off. Christ is as real to me as possibly can be! That is how sure I am of His existence. If I cannot trust the reality of my own senses I just might as well refrain from ever saying it is day or night or raining or windy or whatever! That is how real the experience of Christ was, and still is, to me! Moreover, the fact that all these promises of heaven and paradise are actually true is absolutely amazing to me. Sometimes the wonder of it all actually being true still blows me away. It truly is far more than I could have ever wished for when I originally cried out to Jesus! Here is another video for you to chew on mere: Shroud Of Turin's Unique 3 Dimensionality http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8RVPdHMUtcbornagain77
July 3, 2009
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Barb wrote:
The Bible does not approve of slavery. This was heavily regulated in ancient Israel with provisions for slaves to leave their owners. There is no justification for using the Bible to promote slavery and anyone who’s studied the Bible carefully can tell you this, Nnoel.
It looks like you haven't studied the Bible carefully enough, Barb:
Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly. Leviticus 25:44-46, NIV
The God of the Bible condones slavery, Barb. It may be unpleasant. It may be inconvenient. But it's true. Do you condone slavery?mereologist
July 3, 2009
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BA77:
The proper response for someone who is truly seeking truth, and has not had a personal experience from the Lord, would have been to say they were unsure or that it was improbable, yet Mere stated it as an absolute fact that Jesus was not the Lord...
No, I didn't. You asked me this:
Do you deny Jesus is Lord?
I replied:
If it isn’t already obvious, yes. I am no longer a Christian.
Denying something is not the same as asserting that it cannot possibly be true. Are you claiming that you have never answered a question with a simple "no" when you weren't 100.0% sure that you were correct? Give me a break. Also, I like your double standard. You say that it's wrong to claim certainty, but then you make an exception for those who have had "a personal experience from the Lord". How convenient. Doesn't all of this strike you as hypocritical, to say the least? Motes and beams, BA77.mereologist
July 3, 2009
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I wrote:
It’s absurd to assert that the Bible is inerrant given the huge number of contradictions it contains. A striking example is that the gospels don’t even agree on something as fundamental as when Jesus died. The Gospel of Mark (chapter 14) says that Jesus had the Passover dinner with his disciples (the Last Supper). The next day he was sentenced to death and was crucified at the third hour. The Gospel of John (chapter 19) says that Jesus was sentenced to death at the sixth hour of the day of preparation for Passover and was crucified sometime after that. They cannot both be right. At least one of the two is false. The Bible is not the inerrant word of God, no matter how much you want it to be. And that particular contradiction is just the tip of the iceberg.
vividbleau replied:
I think a lot of the problems one encounters when reading the gospels is that we fail to judge them as to their accuracy by the only standard which is fair to judge them, that is the standards applicable at the time they were passed down.
Are you saying that the gospels are not intended for modern readers, only for Jews of the first century? Then why do present-day Christians make such a fuss over them? And why doesn't God care enough about present-day Christians to give them an accurate account of the life and death of Jesus? That seems like it ought to be pretty important. Also, are you really claiming that first century Jews didn't care whether they were talking about the day of preparation for Passover vs. the day of Passover itself? Give me a break. Even if that were true (and it obviously isn't), do you think that God himself doesn't know the difference between the two days? Do you think he didn't realize that these contradictions would become an issue to future readers of the Bible? If God doesn't even care enough to make the Bible accurate on something as fundamental to the faith as the story of Jesus' death, why do Christians (especially evangelicals) think that the Bible is important at all? If God doesn't care about the Bible, why should you?mereologist
July 3, 2009
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Kappa, The question and its context was a trap for mere, for he was claiming expertise in this area. The proper response for someone who is truly seeking truth, and has not had a personal experience from the Lord, would have been to say they were unsure or that it was improbable, yet Mere stated it as an absolute fact that Jesus was not the Lord and only backtracked on his statement after he realized I caught him in his dogmatism. Thus his statement was not reflective of his true state of knowledge and was a dogmatic assertion i.e. he actually did lie as far as his true state of knowledge was concerned! This is the same way I've seen him operate in science, i.e. he lets his beliefs dictate what the evidence must say. Most people no matter what their religion, Muslim Jew etc.., would be open to this line of discussion and would not rule the possibility out of hand as he did. Thus I stand by the scripture I quoted in this matter. For it separates those who are truly seeking truth from those who are only seeking to assert their particular brand of dogmatism. So Kappa, now that you know the ins and outs of my reasoning with mere, can you deny with 100% certainty that Jesus is Lord?bornagain77
July 3, 2009
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As a Christian why should I trust anything you have to say? 1 John 2:22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? Is this a common view among ID supporters? One would be discouraged from thinking this if someone who is Jewish or Muslim could respond. This should be an easy to fulfill request, considering how many people of other faiths must support the movement.kappa
July 3, 2009
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Clive @ 116:
Given the multi-verse that teapot is out there, and so is Jesus. Really, the universe and everything in Nature self-organized according to the atheist, so why not a lil’ ol’ teapot?
Congratulations, Clive. You've just discovered that the teapot might be there. Now, start looking, and get back to us if you actually find it. After that, we can discuss whether or not this is evidence for a multiverse.dbthomas
July 3, 2009
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Echidna-Levy, You never concede anything when proven wrong so I will politely pass on ever discussing anything with you. And to be brutally honest with you, I find you an arrogant jerk.bornagain77
July 3, 2009
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I’ll never understand why atheistic materialists argue against religious beliefs as if holding them was the worst crime imaginable.
Who are you talking about?David Kellogg
July 3, 2009
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I'll never understand why atheistic materialists argue against religious beliefs as if holding them was the worst crime imaginable. They often extend compassion to all manner of criminal, from paedophiles to murderers, as being only the product of their genes and environment, but rant and rage against religious as if their crimes were more despicable, or something other than physics at work. Under their paradigm, how is holding a religious belief any different than holding the materialist belief? If someome believes in a god, and then does good or bad things, isn't it for the same purported reason any materilist doesn't believe in a god, and then does good or bad things - the inevitable march of physics playing out its hand as dealt by necessity and chance? How does one argue that a belief in god is "misguided"? Misguided according to what? Logic is whatever each individual believes it to be via the chance and necessity that drives the processes of their brain; they have no option to halt or rearrange molecules or atoms that generate their thoughts so that they conform to any "true" logic or reason; if these clanking molecules tell them to believe something, they will, regardless of whether or not it bears any correlation to any real world. True and false are simply whatever one's clanking molecules says they are - nothing more, nothing less. If these clanking molecules tell them to see the world as the success of their views; they will. If these clanking molecules tell them to argue with other clanking molecules; they will .. because "they" are those clanking molecules, and nothing else. If the product of clanking molecules is to see god, experience miracles, OOBEs, faith-healed terminal diseases, and all progress in the world due to a loving god in the form of answers to prayers .. that is simply what some clanking molecules produce. Arguing that those people "aren't" experiencing what their clanking molecules say they are, is like trying to tell a tree it's leaves are false. It is no different in value or principle than clanking molecules producing a belief that the material world is all there is, that what one does is the result of clanking molecules, that such a view generated all reak progress in the world and that religious views are foolish. The only real distinction is that the first perspective isn't self-refuting; fort the second, however, if one believes that their thoughts and beliefs are the result of clanking molecules, then they have no reason to believe that they are the result of clanking molecules, because clanking molecules can make anyone believe any false thing to be true. However, one would have to be able to step outside of the cacaphony of their own clanking molecules to understand that meaningfully; unfortunately, atheistic materialists have left themselves no such means for truly rational judgement.William J. Murray
July 3, 2009
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To impose our standards of our modern era Vivd, I would argue that even by the standards of our modern era the Bible holds up very well. :-) tribune7
July 3, 2009
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Clive,
Can you read Koine Greek? I can, and I can read Attic
Good for you! I took a year of Classical (Attic) Greek in college but wasn't very good at it.
What about the Greek among the Gospels seems like literary convention to you in the woman at the well narrative?
The convention lies in the narrative itself rather than a linguistic feature. By the time of the Gospels, a story of meeting a woman at a well would have been well known as a prelude to marriage (as in several earlier Bible stories). "Man meets woman at well" was a setup for a marriage story. In the later story, Jesus meets a woman at a well and they discuss -- ta da! -- marriage. I think the story would have been recognized as a somewhat ironic variation and commentary on those earlier stories by the first audiences.
Why are the birth narratives clearly fiction
A bunch of reasons. For example, the descent into Egypt in Matthew (not found in Luke) seems obviously a variation on the slavery of the tribes of Israel and their escape from Egypt, meant to emphasis the parallels between Jesus and Moses as someone who comes out of Egypt. There's no historical support for this, just Matthew's account that Herod is (in a literary sense) equivalent to Pharoah. Etc.
Are you judging history because of a philosophical prejudice against the miraculous?
I don't know. I came to this view when I was much more favorable toward miracles. Are you judging history because of a philosophical prejudice toward the miraculous?David Kellogg
July 3, 2009
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Bornagain77
Please explain the actions observed in Quantum mechanics in “natural” time and space terms which are non transcendent.
Which do you follow then? The Ensemble Interpretation? The Copenhagen Interpretation? The Consistent Histories Interpretation? The Instrumentalist Interpretation? Bohm's Interpretation? Modal Interpretation? Decoherence Interpretation? If you choose the Copenhagen, do you tend towards Ballentine or Stapp? Given that a very recent study (Ravi Gomatam 2007) agrees with Howard's exposition in arguing that Bohr's interpretation of complementarity and the textbook Copenhagen interpretation (i.e. wave-particle duality and wave packet collapse) are incompatible, does that make any difference to your position?Echidna-Levy
July 3, 2009
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.“A striking example is that the gospels don’t even agree on something as fundamental as when Jesus died.” I think a lot of the problems one encounters when reading the gospels is that we fail to judge them as to their accuracy by the only standard which is fair to judge them, that is the standards applicable at the time they were passed down. To impose our standards of our modern era of what we deem to be an accurate portrayal of events and sayings on a oral culture existing 2000 years ago is to impose a standard that is unwarranted. Books, or actual scrolls of papyrus were relatively rare. Education was done by word of mouth. Oral cultures emphasized memorization. Furthermore what was considered an accurate portrayal of an event or even an accurate description of what someone said was different than in our current age. Many do not realize that ancient Greek and Hebrew did not have a symbol for quotation marks. An accurate portrayal of what someone said at the time of the gospels did not depend on the exact wording rather an accurate summation of the message or point the one was making. Another thing to keep in mind is that in cultures with oral traditions there was freedom to vary how much of the story was told on any given occasion. Certain things could be included , certain things left out and certain things about the event could be paraphrased. But there were always fixed points. From Dr Craig Blomberg “ However, there were always fixed points that were unalterable, and the community had the right to intervene and correct the storyteller if he erred on these important aspects of the story. A lot of the similarities and differences can be explained by assuming that the disciples and other early Christians had committed to memory a lot of what Jesus said and did, but they felt free to recount this information in various forms, always preserving the significance of Jesus’s original teaching and deeds. Once you allow for the elements of paraphrase, of abridgement, of explanatory additions, of selection, of omission, the gospels are extremely consistent with each other by ancient standards, which are the only standard by which it is fair to judge them.” Vividvividbleau
July 3, 2009
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Also of note Mere, you are not the only one to be severely mislead by the materialistic philosophy: This materialistic belief of the universe being stable and infinite was so deeply rooted in scientific thought that Albert Einstein (1879-1955), when he was shown his general relativity equation indicated a universe that would collapse under its own gravity, added a cosmological constant to his equation to reflect a universe which would not collapse, rather than entertain the thought the universe had a beginning. Einstein and The Belgian Priest, George Lemaitre - The "Father" Of The Big Bang Theory - video http://www.history.com/video.do?name=The_Universe&bcpid=1406608117&bclid=1475274665&bctid=1475165841 of note: This was not the last time Einstein's base materialistic philosophy had severely mislead him. He was also severely mislead in the Bohr–Einstein debates in which he was repeatedly proven wrong in challenging the "spooky" postulations of the emerging field of quantum mechanics. Einstein's general relativity equation has now been extended to confirm not only did matter and energy have a beginning, but space-time also had a beginning in the Big Bang. i.e. The Big Bang was an absolute origin of space-time, matter-energy, and as such demands a cause that transcends space-time, matter-energy. "Every solution to the equations of general relativity guarantees the existence of a singular boundary for space and time in the past." (Hawking, Penrose, Ellis) - 1970 - http://www.leaderu.com/real/ri9404/bigbang.html When astronomer Edwin Hubble published empirical evidence indicating a beginning for the universe, Einstein ended up calling the cosmological constant, he had added to his equation, the biggest blunder of his life. But then again mathematically speaking, Einstein's "fudge factor" was not so much of a blunder after all. In the 1990's a highly modified cosmological constant, representing the elusive "Dark Energy" to account for the accelerated expansion of the universe, was reintroduced into general relativity equations to explain the discrepancy between the ages of the oldest stars in the Milky Way galaxy and the age of the universe. Far from providing a materialistic solution, which would have enabled the universe to be stable and infinite as Einstein had originally envisioned, the finely-tuned cosmological constant, finely-tuned to 1 part in 10^120, has turned into one of the most powerful evidences of design from many finely-tuned universal constants of the universe. The numerical values of the transcendent universal constants in physics that are found for gravity which holds planets, stars and galaxies together; for the weak nuclear force which holds neutrons together; for electromagnetism which allows chemical bonds to form; for the strong nuclear force which holds protons together; for the cosmological constant of space/energy density which accounts for the universe’s expansion; and for several dozen other "universal ratios and/or parameters" (a total of 93 as of 2006) which are universal in their scope, "just so happen" to be the exact numerical values they need to be in order for life, as we know it, to be possible in this universe. A more than slight variance in the value of any individual universal constant, over the entire age of the universe, would have undermined the ability of the entire universe to have life as we know it. To put it mildly, this is a irreducibly complex condition. Anthropic Principle - God Created The Universe - Michael Strauss - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjn8poWD7tM Psalm 119:89-91 Your eternal word, O Lord, stands firm in heaven. Your faithfulness extends to every generation, as enduring as the earth you created. Your regulations remain true to this day, for everything serves your plans. Here are a few sites that list the constants: Fine-Tuning For Life In The Universe http://www.reasons.org/fine-tuning-life-universe Evidence for the Fine Tuning of the Universe http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/designun.html Evidence For God In The Cosmos - Fine Tuning of Constants - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDm9nBD-w_A There are no apparent reasons why the value of each individual transcendent universal constant could not have been very different than what they actually are. In fact, the presumption of any materialistic theory based on blind chance expected a fairly large amount of flexibility in any underlying natural laws for the universe, since the natural laws themselves were postulated to arise from a material basis. They "just so happen" to be at the precise unchanging values necessary to enable carbon-based life to exist in this universe. All individual constants are of such a high degree of precision as to stagger comparison to the precision of any man-made machine. For example, the individual cosmological constant (dark energy) is balanced to 1 part in 10^120 and the individual mass density constant is balanced to 1 part in 10^60. Fine Tuning Of Dark Energy and Mass of the Universe - Hugh Ross - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7B0t4zSzhjg To clearly illustrate the stunning degree of fine-tuning we are dealing with in the universe, Dr. Ross has used the illustration of adding or subtracting a single dime's worth of mass in the observable universe would have been enough of a change in mass density to make life impossible in this universe. This word picture he uses, with the dime, helps to demonstrate a number used to quantify that fine-tuning of mass, namely 1 part in 10^60 for mass density. Compared to the total mass of the observable universe, 1 part in 10^60 works out to about a tenth part of a dime, if not smaller. Where Is the Cosmic Density Fine-Tuning? - Hugh Ross http://www.reasons.org/where-cosmic-density-fine-tuningbornagain77
July 3, 2009
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Mere, If you do not accept Quantum mechanics as proof that our dimension is based in a higher "supernatural" dimension which is not limited by time and space, Please explain the actions observed in Quantum mechanics in "natural" time and space terms which are non transcendent. And since it is clearly impossible for anyone to do as such, i.e. to explain higher dimension actions in lower dimension terms, why are you deceiving yourself that it possible? as a sidenote, Exactly what constraint of evolutionary thought is going to prevent a infinitely powerful, transcendent, Being from existing? Reality surely does not present such a constraint to prevent God from existing, why should your imagination conjure up one? Do you truly believe the lies you tell or do you know better and just hate God/Jesus for no particular reason other than insanity? Why Quantum Theory Does Not Support Materialism - By Bruce L Gordon: Excerpt: Because quantum theory is thought to provide the bedrock for our scientific understanding of physical reality, it is to this theory that the materialist inevitably appeals in support of his worldview. But having fled to science in search of a safe haven for his doctrines, the materialist instead finds that quantum theory in fact dissolves and defeats his materialist understanding of the world. http://www.4truth.net/site/c.hiKXLbPNLrF/b.2904125/k.E94E/Why_Quantum_Theory_Does_Not_Support_Materialism.htm In what I consider an absolutely fascinating discovery; Space itself was created in the Big Bang and continues to "expand equally in all places" i.e. The universe is not expanding "into" anything outside of itself. Thus from a 3-dimensional perspective, any particular "material" spot in the universe is to be considered just as "center of the universe" as any other particular spot in the universe is to be considered "center of the universe". There Is No Three-Dimensional Center To This Universe - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_7Ta5igSEc Where is the centre of the universe?: Excerpt: There is no centre of the universe! According to the standard theories of cosmology, the universe started with a "Big Bang" about 14 thousand million years ago and has been expanding ever since. Yet there is no centre to the expansion; it is the same everywhere. The Big Bang should not be visualized as an ordinary explosion. The universe is not expanding out from a centre into space; rather, the whole universe is expanding and it is doing so equally at all places, as far as we can tell. http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/GR/centre.html So in a holistic sense, from what we now know to be true from 4-Dimensional space-time cosmology, and from other facts revealed later on in this paper, everything in the entire universe can be found to be "centered" on the earth, since there is no true "3-D material center" to this universe. In fact, depending on how much relative importance can be found in a single person, the whole universe could truthfully be said to be revolving, or to be "centered", on that single person. Thus, much contrary to the mediocrity of earth, and of humans, that was brought about by the heliocentric discoveries of Galileo and Copernicus, this finding of a "4-dimensional space-time" for our universe is in fact very comforting to Theistic postulations in general, and even lends very strong support of plausibility to the main tenet of Christianity which holds Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God. Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and upon earth." As well, I find the fact this seemingly insignificant earth is found to revolve around the much more massive sun to be reflective of our true spiritual condition. In regards to God's "kingdom of light", are we not to keep in mind our lives are to be guided by the much higher purpose which is tied to our future in God's "kingdom of light"? Are we not to avoid placing too much emphasis on what this world has to offer, since it is so much more insignificant than what heaven has to offer? Sara Groves - You Are The Sun - Music video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foz25j0r2rM Louie Giglio - How Great Is Our God - Part 2 - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfNiZrt5FjU Psalm 8: 3-4 When I consider Your heavens, the work of Your fingers, The moon and the stars, which You have ordained; What is man that You take thought of him, And the son of man that You care for him? Journey Through the Universe - George Smoot - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sakXMFwkffobornagain77
July 3, 2009
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BA77, Your characterization of quantum mechanical phenomena as "supernatural" is bizarre. Do you really think that quantum physicists are studying the supernatural? I'm sure they (as well as philosophers of science) would be very surprised to hear that. The fact that something is counterintuitive doesn't make it supernatural. The Monty Hall problem is counterintuitive, but surely you wouldn't consider it supernatural, would you? And if QM's counterintuitiveness doesn't qualify it as supernatural, then what does?mereologist
July 2, 2009
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mereologist, ------"I deny that Jesus is Lord in the same sense that I deny that Russell’s teapot is out there orbiting between Earth and Mars. I can’t disprove either one, but they both seem highly unlikely." Given the multi-verse that teapot is out there, and so is Jesus. Really, the universe and everything in Nature self-organized according to the atheist, so why not a lil' ol' teapot? ------"It’s interesting that evangelical Christians profess to believe in a perfectly loving God, but then they turn around and say that God will reject (or even torment eternally) anyone who rejects Christianity because it appears untrue to him or her." "In the long run the answer to all those who object to the doctrine of hell is itself a question: "What are you asking God to do?" To wipe out their past sins and, at all costs, to give them a fresh start, smoothing every difficulty and offering every miraculous help? But He has done so, on Calvary. To forgive them? They will not be forgiven. To leave them alone? Alas, I am afraid that is what He does." "God can't condone evil, forgiving the willfully unrepentant. Lost souls have their wish - to live wholly in the Self, and to make the best of what they find there. And what they finds there is hell. Should God increase our chances to repent? I believe that if a million opportunities were likely to do good, they would be given. But finality has to come some time. Our Lord uses three symbols to describe hell - everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:46), destruction (Matthew 10:28), and privation, exclusion, banishment (Matthew 22:13). The image of fire illustrates both torment and destruction (not annihilation - the destruction of one thing issues in the emergence of something else, in both worlds). It may be feasible that hell is hell not from its own point of view, but from that of heaven. And it is also possible that the eternal fixity of the lost soul need not imply endless duration. Our Lord emphases rather the finality of hell. Does the ultimate loss of a soul mean the defeat of Omnipotence? In a sense, yes. The damned are successful rebels to the end, enslaved within the horrible freedom they have demanded. The doors of hell are locked on the inside." C.S. Lewis, The Problem of PainClive Hayden
July 2, 2009
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David Kellogg, Can you read Koine Greek? I can, and I can read Attic. What about the Greek among the Gospels seems like literary convention to you in the woman at the well narrative? Why are the birth narratives clearly fiction? Are you judging history because of a philosophical prejudice against the miraculous?Clive Hayden
July 2, 2009
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Mere, You stated in your link: It’s logically possible that we’ll find a supernatural explanation for some future physical phenomenon, though I’ll be surprised if we do. After all, we haven’t found a single one in the entire history of science up to this point. Actually We can witness the "supernatural" by experiment and have been able to for some time: What blows most people away, when they first encounter quantum mechanics, is the quantum foundation of our "material reality" blatantly defies our concepts of time and space. Most people consider defying time and space to be a "miraculous & supernatural" event. I know I certainly do! This "miraculous & supernatural" foundation for our physical reality can easily be illuminated by the famous "double slit" experiment. (It should be noted the double slit experiment was originally devised, in 1801, by a Christian named Thomas Young). The Miraculous Foundation of Reality - Dr. Quantum - Double Slit & Entanglement - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzQuU6FpYAk The Electron - The Supernatural Basis of Reality - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jv_YQl6XSMM In fact, the actions observed in the double slit experiment are only possible if our reality has its actual basis in a "higher dimension". Explaining The Unseen Spiritual Realm - Dr. Quantum - Flatland - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhjNlp5RIZs etc...etc...etc...bornagain77
July 2, 2009
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David, Too much information? Well, no :-) All four Gospels talk about the the Betrayal, The Trial, the Crucifixion, the Resurrection; His historical existence; that He performed miracles; that He taught love and mercy; and that He is the Messiah sent from God. Why doubt that?tribune7
July 2, 2009
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