At Mind Matters News: Do any dogs go to heaven? If so, why?

_{Denyse O'Leary

June 13, 2021

Animal minds, Intelligent Design, Philosophy, Religion}

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Neuroscientist Christof Koch was troubled as a child by the Catholic tradition that dogs like his beloved Purzel did not go to heaven:

In recent articles, we’ve discussed well-known neuroscientist Christof Koch’s Integrated Information Theory (IIT) of consciousness which, as he acknowledges, takes a panpsychist (everything is conscious to some degree) approach to the mind. He has explained his reasoning at MIT Press Reader: Materialists must see human consciousness as an illusion — but then whose illusion is it? Panpsychism allows humans to have actual consciousness but, he says, “experience may not even be restricted to biological entities but might extend to non-evolved physical systems previously assumed to be mindless — a pleasing and parsimonious conclusion about the makeup of the universe.” His perspective is gaining popularity in science…
One, perhaps unexpected, factor that he mentions as shaping his overall approach was youthful dissatisfaction with Catholic Church teachings about the immortality of animals…
A well-known Christian scholar and writer of the mid-twentieth century, C.S. Lewis (1898–1963), took a more complex view of the question. Lewis, in no way a pantheist, offers a tentative case for some animal immortality — based precisely on the human exceptionalism that Koch finds objectionable.
News, “Do any dogs go to heaven? If so, why?” at Mind Matters News

Takehome: Ironically, human exceptionalism, which Koch decries, holds out the possibility that some beloved animals may indeed share immortality with humans.

See also: Why would a neuroscientist choose panpsychism over materialism? It seems to have come down to a choice between “nothing is conscious” and “everything is conscious.” Materialism becomes incoherent when it requires us to believe that we only imagine we are conscious — that’s a basic error in logic.

and

The real reason why only human beings speak. Language is a tool for abstract thinking—a necessary tool for abstraction—and humans are the only animals who think abstractly

Comments

WJM, I bought both e-books, and am halfway through the first. I will go back and read the blog posts after I finish the text. I like your prayers. :)AnimatedDust_{June 21, 2021
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Did you read the linked article? Did we read the same OP?
Yes, I read the OP. It was not necessary to read the article. The OP was about the uniqueness of humans and by implication how they were designed. Differently from everything else. Somebody has an emotional attachment to a pet and doubts his religious beliefs because of it. That seems vacuous to me. I understand the emotional feelings for pets, especially dogs. It has zero to do with the purpose of creation except we are emotional creations.jerry_{June 21, 2021
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BA77 said:
Whatever WJM. It seems to me that you are just beating around the bush with trivial details that really don’t matter towards the main point I was making.
So, let me get this straight: for you, the main, most important point is that the Christian NDEs are more enjoyable than the non-Christian NDEs; but the fact that non-Christians have non-Christian NDEs at all is "trivial?" Well, all-righty then.William J Murray_{June 21, 2021
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Jerry said @91:
The OP was about the uniqueness of humans. Evidence for design?
Did you read the linked article? Did we read the same OP? From the OP and the article:
One, perhaps unexpected, factor that he mentions as shaping his overall approach was youthful dissatisfaction with Catholic Church teachings about the immortality of animals…
From the article:
To even entertain such a hope, one must begin by believing in some form of human exceptionalism and immortality.
and this:
Lewis believes that animals receive a sense of self or personality from association with their human masters. We give our pets names and they answer to those names (hopefully), and perhaps recognize themselves by them. “If a good sheepdog seems ‘almost human’ that is because a good shepherd has made it so,” says Lewis. Lewis suggests, acknowledging that he is going out on a theological limb, that animals “attain a real self in their masters in a sense similar to the way human attain real life in Christ.” “And in this sense,” suggests Lewis, “it seems to me that certain animals may have an immortality, not in themselves, but in the immortality of their masters.”
To maintain that hope from the Christian perspective, then one must believe in human exceptionalism (or at least CS Lewis tried to make that argument.) One need not believe in "human exceptionalism" in non-Catholic perspectives to "entertain" that hope; in many belief systems, all animals go to heaven, just like humans, wild or domesticated. ID has nothing to do with the argument in the article. It's strictly a Christian-rooted argument for whether or not the Catholic idea of human exceptionalism provides for some animals joining us in heaven because of their association with us.William J Murray_{June 21, 2021
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Whatever WJM. It seems to me that you are just beating around the bush with trivial details that really don't matter towards the main point I was making. I'll let my case that I have presented thus far, especially as laid out in post 7 and 8, ride as it is (Bugatti style :) ). Have a good day.bornagain77_{June 21, 2021
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Then you and KF might take that up with whomever originated this post
The OP was about the uniqueness of humans. Evidence for design?jerry_{June 21, 2021
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Jerry @89:
Christianity is not part of ID (except 1) and as Kf said should be discussed elsewhere.
Then you and KF might take that up with whomever originated this post. What does it have to do with ID? Is the question, "Do dogs go to Heaven" not a de facto invitation to discuss perspectives about "heaven" or what we call "the afterlife?"William J Murray_{June 21, 2021
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Christianity is simple. Three things: 1) There is a God. 2) Jesus Christ is God/sent by God to reveal Their plan which is salvation or eternal life. 3) Jesus established a way of life/religion to achieve salvation. The key part to accepting is 2. ID actually takes care of 1 but common sense points to it. Number 3 is based on the sayings of Jesus/scripture which was recorded shortly after He lived on earth. The essential elements to reach salvation is belief then love. Love of God. Love of neighbor. But humans being human rarely believe and love everyone. It’s a real struggle to do both especially love. Christianity is not part of ID (except 1) and as Kf said should be discussed elsewhere. Aside: as far as what happens to pets, I would leave that up to the creator of the universe. He is a very smart person.jerry_{June 21, 2021
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If we are going to use the Bugatti vs Yugo analogy, here's a question: why isn't everyone driving around in a Bugatti? Obviously, the cost is too high. If driving around in a Yugo is the only way I can hold my wife dearest in my heart, the only way we can maintain the kind of relationship that is everything to me, I'll take the Yugo over the Bugatti every time. To extend the analogy, I've been driving a Yugo for decades here and I'm completely satisfied with it. I'm overjoyed, ecstatic with my Yugo-driving life. You can't sell me on giving up that Yugo by saying I'm "dooming" myself to the Yugo experience in the afterlife based on NDE evidence because that's exactly what I want. You'd have to make the argument that the Yugo afterlife experience is not an option to make any case for me "giving up" my Yugo here, but the problem is that, for me, any non-Yugo experience in the afterlife might as well be hell.William J Murray_{June 21, 2021
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BA77, I could be wrong, but it seems to me that in order to support Christian doctrine of what actually exists and does not exist in the afterlife, you have to make the case that non-Christian NDEs as reported are not of real things. Making the case that they aren't "as good" as Christian NDEs does not support Christian doctrine; in fact, it contradicts it, at least as far as I can see, absent any argument that those experiences represent something that does not actually exist.William J Murray_{June 21, 2021
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BA77 said:
Hmmm, “subconscious expectations”? That sounds downright Freudian in its presuppositions.
I consider it more an extension of the kind of relationship we have evidence for in quantum physics between mind/consciousness and our experience of reality.
As to you trying to equate these foreign NDEs with Judeo-Christian NDEs, again, Ithat is like you showing me a Bugatti, the world’s most expensive car, and then showing me a Yugo, a notoriously poorly built car, side by side and then you trying to convince me that the Yugo is just as good of a car as the Bugatti is.
Nope. That's not my argument here. I'm saying that in Christian doctrine (as it has been thus far explained to me,) there are no Yugos. Your argument that non-Christian NDEs are "not as good" as non-Christian NDE's requires the admission that non-Christians have non-Christian NDEs.
As to to your belief that ALL people who have not accepted Christ should immediately be going to hell during their NDEs, perhaps you can quote the exact scripture that says that?
That's not the case I'm making. The case I'm making is that the evidence is clear: non-Christians almost always have entirely non-Christian NDEs. Relative levels of enjoyment of NDE's would only matter if it was a clear-cut case of those NDEs conforming to the Christian perspective of what is available in the afterlife. That is not what is happening, at least from the evidence.
Well so much for your belief that all people in foreign cultures who have NDEs should immediately be going to hell.
That's not what I said. I said that if we are going by the NDE evidence, if Christianity is true, the only afterlife scenarios available for anyone to have would conform to Christian doctrine, whether they were Christian Bugattis or Christian Yugos. But, that's not what the NDE evidence indicates; it indicates a wide variety of afterlife experiences which appear to be, generally speaking, culturally dependent. To be clear again, BA77, I'm not arguing here that non-Christian NDEs are "as good as" Christian ones because that is not relevant to the argument I am making here. You can continue to go forward as if that is what I'm arguing if you wish, but it has nothing to do with what I'm actually arguing.William J Murray_{June 21, 2021
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AD said:
That’s where you want to be, even though you don’t know it yet.
No, that's not condescending at all. ; )
Then you get her, face to face, physical, forever,
Well, I do if she's there. If not, I'm out of luck.
...though Scripture says, you won’t be married to her in heaven, because we are all married to Christ,
Hard pass on that.
... but we will be every bit as fulfilled. We have to trust that there are greater things that we can’t yet conceive of, so maybe you need to hold judgment just yet on that concept.
I'm sure there are all sorts of things that I cannot conceive of yet because I have experienced things in life that I could not have even conceived of before. I'm quite certain there are experiences in the afterlife I can't conceive of now. The problem (for you in this discussion) is that my current paradigm has worked for decades in moving me into ever-increasing, previously unimaginable depths and breadths of enjoyment, including deeper and more profound, satisfying and fulling love, joy, happiness, peace, enthusiasm, wonder, etc. It has overcome all obstacles and challenges, removed angst, worry, frustration, worry, etc; delivered me from despairing, agonizing grief; it has delivered experiences there are no words to adequately describe. I've felt such pure joy that I could not, in this body, endure it for more than a few seconds. I've experienced the love of my wife, and my love for her, so deeply and profoundly, producing such delight that all I could do was cry and laugh until that sensation passed. After her death, her touch has produced such searing pleasure that the first time it happened I recoiled out of shock. My mind couldn't even process the sensation for a while. If this is going to turn into you trying to convince me become a Christian, here's the problem with that goal: the only way you can do that is to convince me that I will enjoy the Christian Heaven more than anything else I currently experience or can possibly experience otherwise. Vague promises of "even greater fulfillment" if I completely change course from that which has been consistently successful at delivering ever-increasing depths of enjoyment - fulfillment, joy, love, excitement, wonder, peace, etc. - for decades now, is just not going to come close to making that case. Let's say I make it to "heaven" and Irene, my wife, did not make the cut. Am I supposed to find that situation enjoyable? Am I supposed to be happy and joyous if that turns out to be the case? What if some of my children don't make it; am I supposed to be okay with that? Again, hard pass on any existential arrangement where that's even a remote possibility.William J Murray_{June 21, 2021
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WJM states:
If you’re attempting to make the case that non-Christian NDE’s are “less wonderful” or “less euphoric” or “less loving” or whatever, again, that may be a product of cultural expectations and conditions that lead people to afterlife conditions that correspond to their subconscious expectations."
Hmmm, "subconscious expectations"? That sounds downright Freudian in its presuppositions. :) As to you trying to equate these foreign NDEs with Judeo-Christian NDEs, again, Ithat is like you showing me a Bugatti, the world's most expensive car, and then showing me a Yugo, a notoriously poorly built car, side by side and then you trying to convince me that the Yugo is just as good of a car as the Bugatti is. That simply ain’t going to fly in my book. For instance, here is a 'typical' Judeo-Christian NDE,
After 3 near-death experiences, this man’s mission is to comfort dying veterans - May 7, 2021 Excerpt: During those 28 minutes, Brinkley says his consciousness traveled through a tunnel, where he encountered a spiritual being of light, and underwent a grueling replay of his entire life, as seen not only from his own perspective, but everyone he’d ever encountered. Something he says was extremely humbling. “I saw my entire tire life past performing a 360 degree panorama, I had missed nothing. You know how many hairs were in the nose of the doctor who pulled you from your mother. You know everything that there is from the time you open your eyes. You have complete cognitive awareness, no doubt about it. And that’s all happening at the same time, no doubt about it. Then you watch the same life from a second-person point of view, as if you were your own best friend. So you can see how silly, how funny, how dumb, how stupid it was, but it’s one of your best friend, you know. There’s no judgments, just looking. And then you literally become every person that you ever encounter. And you feel the direct results of your interaction between you and that person. So no one gets away, with anyone, anything.” DANNION BRINKLEY https://www.wkrg.com/news/after-3-near-death-experiences-this-mans-mission-is-to-comfort-dying-veterans/
In contrast, your latest citation, (which among other things that these Japanese NDEs lacked when compared to Judeo-Christian NDEs), your study noted a lack of “a realm in which all knowledge exists,”
Only one experiencer referred in his interview to the 10th element, “a realm in which all knowledge exists,” and his reference was only an implication, https://med.virginia.edu/perceptual-studies/wp-content/uploads/sites/360/2017/01/NDE76-Japanese-and-western-JNDS.pdf
Again, this not a minor 'missing detail' for foreign NDEs in my book, i.e. No matter what you believe, Yugos simply are NOT Bugattis! They are only superficially similar. There is simply nothing within both of your citations that you have cited to me that comes remotely close to the 'exceptional quality' of Judeo-Christian NDEs. WJM, you go on,
The evidential problem with your argument, BA77, is that these people did not meet the Christian God, or some other representative of the Christian God, to warn them or tell them to convert to Christianity. They did not find themselves in hell. They found themselves in an afterlife world that largely met their cultural expectations."
As to to your belief that ALL people who have not accepted Christ should immediately be going to hell during their NDEs, perhaps you can quote the exact scripture that says that? I can't seem to recall that exact scripture right now. But I can recall this scripture,
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord isn't slow about keeping his promises, as some people think he is. In fact, God is patient, because he wants everyone to turn from sin and no one to be lost.
I can also recall something called Purgatory, which is defined as "an intermediate state after physical death for expiatory purification."
Purgatory,, is according to the belief of some Christians,,, an intermediate state after physical death for expiatory purification.[2] The process of Purgatory is the final purification of the elect,,, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.,,, The Church of England, mother church of the Anglican Communion, officially denounces what it calls "the Romish Doctrine concerning Purgatory",[13] but the Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodox Churches, and elements of the Anglican, Lutheran and Methodist traditions hold that for some there is cleansing after death and pray for the dead.[14][15][16][17][18] The Reformed Churches teach that the departed are delivered from their sins through the process of glorification.[19] Rabbinical Judaism also believes in the possibility of after-death purification and may even use the word "purgatory" to describe the similar rabbinical concept of Gehenna, though Gehenna is also sometimes described[by whom?] as more similar to hell or Hades.[20] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purgatory
Well so much for your belief that all people in foreign cultures who have NDEs should immediately be going to hell. Moreover, as to Christ revealing himself to people who had no prior knowledge of Him, among other stories I have heard of Christ 'unexpectedly' revealing himself to people who were 'seeking truth', I can also recall this fairly recent story of Christ revealing himself to a Buddhist monk in a vision.
BUDDHIST MONK TURNED MISSIONARY: TRANSFORMED BY A VISION AND GOD’S WORD June 28, 2019 https://bethanyinternational.org/news/buddhist-monk-turned-missionary-transformed-by-a-vision-and-gods-word/
I'm sure I could easily find several more stories like this. I'm pressed for time right now though. Thus, apparently, my supposed 'evidential problem' with foreign NDEs seems to be a product of your own imagination. In fact, IMHO, both of your studies. that you have cited to me. have, in the end, supported my position of a "Christian' heavenly paradise that exists above this temporal realm, and have disconfirmed your position that foreign NDEs are going to that 'Christian' heavenly paradise that, (as far as our best science e can tell us), really does 'physically' exist above this temporal realm, (i.e. see special relativity and NDEs at posts 7 and 8).
2 Corinthians 12:2-4 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell.
bornagain77_{June 21, 2021
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BA77 said:
Well WJM, since I hold, via special relativity, that Judeo-Christian NDEs are actually going to a physically real heaven that exists in a higher dimension above this temporal realm, don’t you think those differences with heaven, that they tried to downplay, are pretty doggone significant?
There are significant differences and similarities between cultures and the component features of NDEs they experience. If you're attempting to make the case that non-Christian NDE's are "less wonderful" or "less euphoric" or "less loving" or whatever, again, that may be a product of cultural expectations and conditions that lead people to afterlife conditions that correspond to their subconscious expectations. The evidential problem with your argument, BA77, is that these people did not meet the Christian God, or some other representative of the Christian God, to warn them or tell them to convert to Christianity. They did not find themselves in hell. They found themselves in an afterlife world that largely met their cultural expectations. You might be able to make an argument from the NDE evidence that the Christian Heaven is better in some sense than other known afterlife situations, but you can't make the argument that the Christian existential afterlife arrangement is what everyone experiences when they have an NDE. You can't even argue that no other belief system produces enjoyable NDEs. The NDE evidence does not indicate that there is one particular set of afterlife realms, corresponding to one particular religion or spiritual perspective, that everyone visits during an NDE. It also indicates that there are different pathway experiences into different "worlds."William J Murray_{June 20, 2021
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AnimatedDust @81: First, the links to my books you asked for: Love After Life https://www.amazon.com/Love-After-Life-fulfilling-relationship/dp/1710255412/ Forbidden https://www.amazon.com/Forbidden-Transdimensional-Relationships-William-Murray/dp/1675523568/
As for your lack of desire for anything Christianity has to offer, it seems very obvious to me, as someone who has studied it extensively, though not in the sense of CHARLES and BA77 extensively, that you know next to nothing about it, as based on your own remarks about it. If you did, you wouldn’t have asked the questions you did about heaven.
I don't have to know all of the details to understand the existential arrangements. The gist of it is, God supposedly created me and put me in this world, and I have an unspecified amount of time to make the correct pertinent decisions regarding my life, such as "loving god" or "accepting Jesus" or "accepting forgiveness and striving to be as "good" as possible" before I die and my fate is eternally decided. Is that about the gist of it, or do I have something fundamentally wrong? If I have that about right, I know all I need to know to take a hard pass.
You seem to remain in a state of rebellion,
Are we going to attempt to psychoanalyze each other from each of our perspectives? Is that how you want this conversation to go?
and haven’t considered seriously, the possibility that this Christian God really did create you and your wife.
Well, not the Christian God in particular, but I've seriously considered the idea that any God "created" me and put me into any particular, limited existential arrangement. So, it wasn't just the Christian God that got thrown out after those considerations.
One question though, are you now convinced, from your replies here, that life continues after death?
As I said, I've always believed in the afterlife. It's actually something I've never doubted. It's just that now I'm aware of all of the evidence. Plus, I've visited there a few times. And, there's the fact I've been talking to my dead wife and interacting with her for four years now, so ...William J Murray_{June 20, 2021
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Thank you so much for replying, WJM. I hadn't checked this in a while. I want to spend some time on your replies, but wanted to pen a few thoughts on first review of those replies. In the meantime, would you start by pointing me/us to a link on Amazon for your work? I would like very much to check it out. I intend to search it after I hit send, regardless. I have searched for your writings before, without success. I usually end up with writings of William J. Murray, the son of bitter atheist, Madalyn Murray O'Hair. As for your lack of desire for anything Christianity has to offer, it seems very obvious to me, as someone who has studied it extensively, though not in the sense of CHARLES and BA77 extensively, that you know next to nothing about it, as based on your own remarks about it. If you did, you wouldn't have asked the questions you did about heaven. You seem to remain in a state of rebellion, and haven't considered seriously, the possibility that this Christian God really did create you and your wife. Nothing much can develop if you remain in a state of pseudo-intellectual superiority to the one who made everyone and everything in this universe. You won't be able to hang with him in any intellectual sense. The last few chapters of Job will (should) demonstrate the inefficacy of arguing with God. One of the claims is that at the final resurrection, when Christ returns, we will once again be in physical bodies, immortal, incorruptible, and imperishable. The choice of free will in this time/space continuum is accept or reject. The choices by then will have been long actualized, eternally. No one in heaven will want to disobey the will of God. Everyone who does, won't be allowed in. Sign me up, as one with a long list of sins who needs that kind of Grace. If you remain convinced, by your wealth of lack of evidence, (amply warned about in Proverbs) God will simply grant you your choice, and you will be separated from the one necessary being in the universe, eternally, as your choice is eternally actualized. That would likely include any future interaction with your wife, regardless if she made the same choice. To view God as less important than her, means you've really not seriously considered that she and you are both gifts given by the most amazing person in the universe. And to view her as necessary for you, and God contingent, means you haven't fully worked through all this. You actually haven't even begun to. N.T. Wright refers to the final destination as "Life after life after death." Then we are in paradise restored, Eden restored, without everything we find abhorrent in this life. That's where you want to be, even though you don't know it yet. Then you get her, face to face, physical, forever, though Scripture says, you won't be married to her in heaven, because we are all married to Christ, but we will be every bit as fulfilled. We have to trust that there are greater things that we can't yet conceive of, so maybe you need to hold judgment just yet on that concept. If this God really is the author of the whole show, then humility and submission shouldn't be anathema, as they seem to be for you now. He gets to make the rules. But he also blessed you with the ability to turn him down. Hopefully that's after an adequate assessment of the information available to you. I suspect that with your giant intellect, you should do far more homework. (To whom much is given, much is expected.) As Lewis once said, "If you aim at heaven, you get Earth and everything else thrown in. If you aim at Earth, you get nothing." *From memory, might not be exact. Your wishes won't transcend your death. Your choices, will, however. More later, but I wanted to write a few preliminary thoughts. Ironic, but the one thing your giant intellect seems to want to cast off, is the one thing that all the claims of the Bible you haven't read validate. That, the big hole in William J. Murray, that is causing him to miss the final piece of the puzzle, is truly God shaped. Thank you again for your reply, and please do send us a link to your thoughts. I am seriously interested in them, and I am sorry for the loss of your wife, in the sense that we all know that to be. One question though, are you now convinced, from your replies here, that life continues after death?AnimatedDust_{June 20, 2021
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WJM, from the abstract of the paper you cited,
"In this article, we examine Japanese NDEs and compare their features with generalizations based on observations of Western NDEs. The main differences between Japanese and Western NDEs are the interpretation of the light and the concomitant lack of interaction with it, the image of heaven, and the absence of the life review. We suggest that these characteristics are ac- counted for in terms of cultural differences.
Well WJM, since I hold, via special relativity, that Judeo-Christian NDEs are actually going to a physically real heaven that exists in a higher dimension above this temporal realm, don't you think those differences with heaven, that they tried to downplay, are pretty doggone significant? Moreover, in their paper they only mention one person 'seeing a dark tunnel'. And I saw no discussion of that one person's NDE. As you know from posts 7 and 8, the tunnel to a higher heavenly dimension, because of special relativity, is very important to me for establishing the validity of actually going to a higher heavenly dimension. Among other missing features, they also discussed a "lack of the sense of being loved in Japanese NDEs". i.e. Not a minor missing feature! In short, I found that this study, like the previous study you cited to me, found only very superficial similarities with Judeo-Christian NDEs. (By researchers who apparently had a bias towards trying to find as many 'superficial' similarities as they could with Judeo-Christian NDEs). Like I told you about the previous study that you cited to me to try to defend your position that foreign NDEs are just as heavenly as Judeo-Christian NDEs are. it is like you showing me a Bugatti, the world most expensive car, and then showing me a Yugo, a notoriously poorly built car, side by side and then you trying to convince me that the Yugo is just as good of a car as the Bugatti is. That simply ain't going to fly in my book. Shoot, the quote-unquote "lack of the sense of being loved in Japanese NDEs" is enough, all by its lonesome, to convince me of the fact that Japanese NDEs are no where near being anything like the 'exceptional quality' that Judeo-Christian NDEs are.
"The only human emotion I could feel was pure, unrelenting, unconditional love. Take the unconditional love a mother has for a child and amplify it a thousand fold, then multiply exponentially. The result of your equation would be as a grain of sand is to all the beaches in the world. So, too, is the comparison between the love we experience on earth to what I felt during my experience. This love is so strong, that words like "love" make the description seem obscene. It was the most powerful and compelling feeling. But, it was so much more. I felt the presence of angels. I felt the presence of joyous souls, and they described to me a hundred lifetimes worth of knowledge about our divinity. Simultaneous to the deliverance of this knowledge, I knew I was in the presence of God. I never wanted to leave, never." Judeo-Christian Near Death Experience Testimony
Again, this is not a minor missing feature for Japanese NDEs. Verse:
1 John 4:: 16 So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.
bornagain77_{June 20, 2021
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I’m not sure what you think the NDE evidence for Christianity would be, if there are no “true Christians”
:)) Christian God created all people so all people(no matter their beliefs) will have universal experiences regarding those short moments of soul leaving the body.Sandy_{June 20, 2021
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Sandy said:
PS: Catholics and Protestants are not the representants of Christ’s Church because they split from Christ and His Church in 1054.
Well, if that's true, then we can probably safely say that virtually nobody with pre-Council of Lyon Eastern Orthodox beliefs is represented in the NDE data. I'm not sure what you think the NDE evidence for Christianity would be, if there are no "true Christians" represented in the data.William J Murray_{June 20, 2021
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The existence of NDE to all human beings confirm Christian doctrine of one God that created all humans and of life after death (immortality of soul)that shatter any argument from evil against God. Life after death confirm that this world is a place of test in which moral law (no pleasure law ) and free will will select the winners and the losers of this contest. Jesus Christ let us the most higher morality ever known by humans. Christianity is not true is the TRUTH. The end. PS: Catholics and Protestants are not the representants of Christ's Church because they split from Christ and His Church in 1054.Sandy_{June 20, 2021
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Sandy, I neither deny nor ignore BA77's arguments or evidence. He has made an excellent case that the portal into the Christian heaven is through Jesus. The experiential accounts of Christian NDEs serve to help make that case. My point is not that his argument is flawed or his evidence isn't valid. My point is that experiences of the afterlife appear to be largely cultural in nature, an example being that paper I linked to on a study of Japanese NDEs. IMO, one must dismiss or ignore all other accounts of NDEs on an a priori basis in order to reach the conclusion that the afterlife is entirely limited to the Christian heaven and the Christian hell (or any additional Christian afterlife realms, like purgatory.) One must also take into account that the vast bulk of the research done prior to 2000 was conducted in western, Christian cultures - mostly from Protestant and Catholic experiencers. Also, the diversity of experiences corresponds to other avenues of afterlife research, which paints a picture of enormous afterlife diversity, not of one specific set or kind of experience that solely corresponds to a single spiritual or religious perspective.William J Murray_{June 20, 2021
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BA77, an article you might find interesting that compares Japanese and Western NDEs: https://med.virginia.edu/perceptual-studies/wp-content/uploads/sites/360/2017/01/NDE76-Japanese-and-western-JNDS.pdf Dr. Bruce Greyson is probably the current "world expert" on NDEs, producing a large volume of articles on the subject appearing in various medical and other scientific journals. Here is a source for his articles: https://med.virginia.edu/perceptual-studies/publications/academic-publications/?wpv-category%5B%5D=near-death-experiences&2author-names%5B%5D=&date-of-publication%5B%5D=William J Murray_{June 20, 2021
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Bornagain77 The website, where anybody could write anything, contained about 25 or so foreign NDE testimonies.
:) You can't convince someone with this kind of "testimonies" when they reject Bible testimonies who are much more convincing and have more evidences than any NDE experience. It's about mindset. Also we have people who believe in afterlife for the wrong reason or in a wrong way. To make a soup you need right ingredients to right place and at the right time.Sandy_{June 20, 2021
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Seversky asks:
How do we know the NDEs reported by members of other faiths are wrong and those of Christians are right?
Once a person is familiar with the evidence, IMO it isn't reasonable to talk about "right" and "wrong" experiences of the afterlife. IMO, it's like people from a small town in rural Alabama visiting various locations around the world and then reporting back what they found. The afterlife, from the evidence, appears to be an incredibly diverse environment with diverse people living in diverse communities, having very diverse experiences.William J Murray_{June 20, 2021
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Seversky, Here's a good general summary of the evidence, from 2014. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6172100/ Querius, About the fraud thing. Not saying this is what you're doing but it's easy to wave off people's testimony about their experiences as fraudulent, or to selectively do so when there is a set of that testimony that doesn't fit one's beliefs. When you actually go over the evidence and the testimony, you find out that most people are very reluctant to share this information with others. When you actually talk to those people, it's very difficult to not find them perfectly credible. That article I linked describes several lines of evidence that indicate NDE's are real, meaning that people having them are experiencing something actual and real. There are entirely different lines of evidence about what we call "the afterlife" besides NDE's, including communication with the dead and people here who have the capacity via OBE to visit "the afterlife." Four years ago I started seriously looking into all this, and what I found was a mountain of evidence, including decades of ongoing scientific research, that IMO unequivocally demonstrates the continuation of conscious life after death. IMO, one would just have to basically wave off a tsunami of evidence in order to not come to the conclusions that yes, our individual conscious life not only survives life here, it precedes it.William J Murray_{June 20, 2021
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Seversky, If you read Bornagain77's post #68, you might learn that some people have hellish NDEs and others have heavenly ones. How do you know that they're not dependent on each individual? Frankly, I'm not a fan of NDEs due to the very real possibility of fraud, but also I understand that they're not uncommon and some out-of-body experiences associated with them are very convincing. There are even groups of people that meet to talk about their own experiences. Since you're asking these questions, maybe you could consider looking up some of these studies and report back what you find out. -QQuerius_{June 19, 2021
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How do we know the NDEs reported by members of other faiths are wrong and those of Christians are right? Are all these eyewitness reports of heaven largely consistent and do they provide any more detailed information other than bright lights at the end of tunnels, a vague sense of being in the presence of others and an overwhelming sense of bliss or ecstasy?Seversky_{June 19, 2021
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BA77 said:
WJM, I may be wrong, but from your line of questioning, It looks to me like you are looking for something to be dissatisfied with in heaven?
I'm asking questions about what Heaven is supposed to be like under Christianity, as per - I would suppose - the Bible. Thanks for providing the quotes you did at the end. I'll assume that's as specific as it gets. I'm well aware of your arguments on these matters and I'm very well read/informed on the NDE evidence, as well as other kinds of evidence about the afterlife, from around the world.William J Murray_{June 19, 2021
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WJM, previously you argued with me that foreign Near Death Experiences (NDEs) were just as 'heavenly' as Judeo-Christian NDEs. I disagreed and I provided several studies from foreign, non-Judeo-Christian, cultures that backed up my position. The studies from Thailand, China and Japan, ranged from depressing NDEs (China), to unpleasant NDEs (Japan), to hellish NDEs (Thailand). Here is a 'typical' NDE testimony from Thailand.
Near Death Experience Thailand Asia - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8M5J3zWG5g Near-Death Experiences in Thailand - Todd Murphy Excerpt:The Light seems to be absent in Thai NDEs. So is the profound positive affect found in so many Western NDEs. The most common affect in our collection is negative. Unlike the negative affect in so many Western NDEs (cf. Greyson & Bush, 1992), that found in Thai NDEs (in all but case #11) has two recognizable causes. The first is fear of 'going'. The second is horror and fear of hell. It is worth noting that although half of our collection include seeing hell (cases 2,6,7,9,10) and being forced to witness horrific tortures, not one includes the NDEer having been subjected to these torments themselves. http://www.shaktitechnology.com/thaindes.htm
In response, and to try to back up your position that foreign NDEs are just as heavenly as Judeo-Christian NDEs, you provided me with one study and a website, (a website where anybody could write anything), that purported to show that foreign NDEs were just as 'heavenly' as Judeo-Christian Near Death Experiences. The website, where anybody could write anything, contained about 25 or so foreign NDE testimonies. More than half of them did not live up to their billing as being just as heavenly as Judeo-Christian NDEs. And some of the testimonies came from foreign countries where Judeo-Christianity is present as either major, or as a significant minor, influence. Only handful of the testimonies on the website had me scratching my head as to their uncanny resemblance to Judeo-Christian NDEs. But seeing as anybody could write anything on this website, and seeing as I had no further background information on the people who actually wrote these testimonies, I held their testimonies as being suspect. i.e. They could be true, they could be not true. I simply had no way to check the veracity of those handful of testimonies that were remaining and that had me scratching my head. In the more trustworthy study that you provided me, (I don't have the link to your paper handy right now and If you could re-provide the link that would be helpful), which you held to back up your position, I noted that the NDEs in the study only had a superficial resemblance to 'heavenly' Judeo-Christian NDEs, but, most importantly, the authors of the study themselves noted, several times, that foreign NDEs were marked by their lack of a tunnel to a higher heavenly dimension. In fact, if I recall correctly, the absence of a tunnel to a higher heavenly dimension was a major recurring point of their study. As I explained to you, the absence of a tunnel to a higher heavenly dimension in foreign NDEs is not a minor omission for foreign NDEs in my book. In fact, as I outlined in posts 7 and 8 of this very thread, the existence of a tunnel to a higher heavenly dimension, (and of a timeless eternity), are exactly what we would expect beforehand from special relativity, (one of our most powerful theories in science).
For me it is simply uncanny that there would be such a strong correspondence between what we know to be true from special relativity and what is reported to be true from NDEers of a ‘timeless eternity’ and of going through a tunnel to a higher, ‘heavenly’, dimension that is above this 3-D temporal realm during their NDEs. I would go so far as to say that such a strong correspondence between Special Relativity and their NDE testimonies, (since these people, in all likelihood, don’t know the intricacies of special relativity), is proof, in and of itself, that their NDE testimonies of a heavenly paradise above this temporal dimension are trustworthy and true. https://uncommondescent.com/philosophy/at-mind-matters-news-do-any-dogs-go-to-heaven-if-so-why/#comment-732631
So WJM, as far as one of our most powerful theories in science, i.e. Special Relativity, can tell us, and as far as the millions of heavenly Judeo-Christian NDE testimonies can tell us, heaven is physically real place that exist in a higher dimension above this temporal dimension. And that powerful 'scientific' argument, from Special Relativity, (scientific evidence establishing the physical reality of heaven), is the starting point from which I would base any further arguments that I might make as to what might be, or what might not be, in heaven. After all, if I wanted to make arguments for the reality of heaven that I could not back up with solid science, I might as well be a Darwinist for all my arguing would be worth. WJM, in post 24, (and as you reiterated in post 66), you asked many questions as to what might be, or what might not be, in heaven.
Post 24: "In the Christian version of Heaven, is there no wildlife? No butterflies, cardinals, blue jays, buffalo, whales or elephants? What about trees, flowers, grass? Is there no food? No steak and potatoes, lobster? We never get to see or experience a lion again? And what is this about spouses? Do marriages exist in heaven or not? Are there movies, TV, books to read? Rock ‘n’ roll bands? Is all the music orchestral? Is there no night time, or any temperature variance? What about free will? Also, do we remember the people we love that didn’t get into heaven, or do we have to live with the knowledge and grief that they are either gone or suffering for eternity?" Post 66: "Is there free will in heaven? Do we retain our memories and relationships? Is it that the people who make it there cannot do evil things, or is it that they can, but would not? Do mountains, rivers, deserts, cities, small towns, cabins by the lake exist? Do the seasons change, is there a day and night cycle, are there stars and the moon? Does a universe exist? Can we visit other planets? Is there food in heaven? Is there sex? Can I change what I look like, or am I stuck looking the way I look now for eternity? Is there romance? Do people fall in love? Is there marriage? Can we have children there? Is there a wide variety of music? Are there concerts? Is there stuff to learn about, responsibilities we take on like jobs? Is there art – paint supplies, canvas, etc? Is there a wide variety of clothes? Do we have physical bodies? Are there sports? Games? Entertainment, like movies or TV shows? Or are we more like glowing orbs of pure bliss? Eternity is a long time, man. Do any of you know what you’re getting yourselves into?
WJM, I may be wrong, but from your line of questioning, It looks to me like you are looking for something to be dissatisfied with in heaven? Yet, from my reading of hundreds, (perhaps over a thousand), Judeo-Christian NDEs, there is ZERO dissatisfaction with heaven. As Mickey Robinson emphasized in his NDE, "we will NEVER be bored in heaven". (see post 8 for a link to his video testimony), I also found several mentions of animals, flawless countrysides, crystal clear streams, amazingly beautiful cities, libraries, occupations, and/or work, etc.. etc.. etc.. in my reading of Judeo-Christian NDEs. As to what might be in heaven according to what the Bible itself says, I agree with you that most of what is out there floating around in popular culture about heaven is vague. Dr. Randy Alcorn addresses that concern in the following recent 2021 video from the CS Lewis institute, (and also in a scholarly book he wrote in 2004). (Of note, I have not watched the video yet, (nor have I read his book), so the video will be new to me also).
Randy Alcorn - Heaven - video - Feb 9, 2021 - C.S. Lewis Institute https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTyW7Vit_9M Heaven - By: Randy Alcorn - TYNDALE HOUSE / 2004 As the years pass and we watch more and more of our family, friends and mentors pass away, it is only natural to ask questions about heaven. However, our understanding of heaven is often limited to a few half-forgotten Sunday school lessons and the insubstantial images provided by popular movies and T.V. Fortunately, in Heaven Randy Alcorn provides us with a thoroughly researched and biblically definitive description of heaven. As Alcorn addresses our most serious questions about heaven, including the nature of judgment, and answers a few of our less serious questions as well, including the accessibility of cafe mochas in the sweet by and by. Readers will develop a deeper understanding of our eternal destination and find the courage to strive for heaven while living on earth. https://www.christianbook.com/heaven-randy-alcorn/9780842379427/pd/79422?kw=29064775092&mt=b&dv=c&event=PPCSRC&p=1186432&gclid=CjwKCAjwq7aGBhADEiwA6uGZp6ZKTJsABAS5dL_oHC_sKAMd_QhdHU-kRGPYfK2C5MivJXHSatxbzxoCX7kQAvD_BwE#CBD-PD-Description
Verses:
Psalm 16:11 You make known to me the path of life; in your presence there is fullness of joy; at your right hand are pleasures forevermore. Mark 16:19 After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God. Matthew 6:31-33 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
bornagain77_{June 19, 2021
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WJM, proper place for that is a forum on systematic theology. KFkairosfocus_{June 19, 2021
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