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God as a necessary, maximally great, endless being vs. the challenge to an actual infinity

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In a recent thread, the Kalam Cosmological argument family was challenged on the issue: can an actual infinity exist? If not (presumably due to Hilbert’s Hotel-like absurdities), then God could not be an infinite being as such is impossible of being.

A thread of discussion developed, and I thought a summary intervention may be helpful. On further thought, perhaps it should be headlined:

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KF, 12: >> I think several themes are worth highlighting.

It can be discussed that non-being, true nothingness cannot be a causal source. Were there ever utter nothing, such would therefore forever obtain. There would be no world.But, manifestly, there is a world.

So, we must ponder the logic of being, at least in a nutshell.

Candidates to being may be such that core characteristics central to identity stand in mutual contradiction such as those of a square circle. Such are impossible of being. And, we see principles of distinct identity necessarily embedded from the outset, especially that truths must be all so together so X and Y where Y = ~ X is not a possible state of affairs. If something could exist in a possible world were it actualised as a state of affairs, it is a possible being.

Of these, some Z can be in at least one possible world Wi, but not in another “neighbouring” one, Wj — contingent beings. The difference Wi – Wj will contain some unmet on-off enabling circumstance for Z . . . a necessary causal condition or factor for Z, say C. If Z is a fire, it requires heat, fuel, oxidiser and an uninterfered-with combustion chain reaction (cf. how Halon extinguishers work).

By contrast, we can see a being N that has no dependence on any such C, which will be in any and all possible worlds. That is, N is a necessary being and will be part of the common framework for any world W to exist. For example, distinct identity (A vs ~A) entails that two-ness and so also the endless set of naturals, must exist. [Beyond which lie the transfinites and the surreals as illustrated.] And, without necessary causal factors C, such has no beginning or end. Given that a world exists, at least one being N must be necessary. (Theists, classically hold that things like numbers are eternally contemplated by God, for instance.)

Any given case Ni is eternal, causeless, framework for any possible world, enabling and structuring it in some way. Notice, eternality not infinity, has been asserted, on the strength that for some W to be, some N must be as key to its framework. We readily see this for two-ness etc.

Such is strange to our ears, maybe, but that is a fault of our education not the logic.

Now too, our world is one of finite stage causal succession as we can see from succession of generations. But it is dubious for such to have existed to the infinitely — endlessly — remote past, as to succeed from some stage s_k to s_k+1, s_k+2 etc is equivalent to a counting succession 0,1,2 . . . which succeeds without limit but in an instance will be such that some later s_p to s_p+1, s_p+2 etc can again be matched 1:1 with 0,1,2 . . . thus showing that a transfinite span, credibly, cannot be traversed in finite-stage successive, cumulative steps. Thus if we are at a now, no S_k is transfinitely remote, even beyond say a big bang at 13.8 BYA. Our world W_a is credibly not some Ni, and has a beginning. It has a cause, a capable, sufficient one.

Where, we exist therein as responsibly and rationally free, morally governed creatures. This constrains the N_a that is at the world-root. For, post Hume et al, only at that level can the IS-OUGHT gap be soundly bridged. And we all know that after centuries of debate, only one serious candidate stands — just put up a viable alternative if you think you can. Good luck with that: ______ (Predictably, a fail.)

This is: the inherently good creator God, a necessary and maximally great being; worthy of loyalty and of the reasonable, responsible service of doing the good in accord with our evident nature.

But, what about, God is infinite?

I suggest, this first means that God is not externally limited or weakened so that he can be defeated or utterly frustrated in his purposes. Which, is among other things a way of saying that God is not evil, that being the privation, frustration or perversion of good capabilities out of their proper end.

God is also eternal and indestructible, as he has no dependence on external, on/off enabling causal factors. Thus, his being is without beginning or end, endless. This, being a characteristic of necessary being, which is required once a world is.

So, I think we need to reflect on what sense is meant when it is suggested that an actual infinity is impossible of being, and what are its strengths and limitations. For sure, an endless past of finite stage causal succession seems impossible and a physical, materially based infinite quantity is also dubious. But, the transfinite set of natural numbers and beyond the surreals great and small all seem necessary — framework to any world. Which in turn suggests mind capable of such a contemplation.

And more.>>

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Food for thought. END

Comments
The original question may be answered already but if not there is No question that the whole argument is a classic Category Mistake. Infinite in relation to God is not literal. I think it's extremely important when discussing natural theology or the God of the Bible to guard ourselves from being overly pedantic. Although God and the nature of reality is obviously deep serious stuff... the answers are not complicated at all and certainly are easily accessible to all. We all actually understand infinity well in reality and many are quite intuitive, if math was in our ciriculum, in recognizing infinity on paper is just a tool & never meant to apply to the real world. So running into the barstool atheist or even the shockingly biased physicist turned philosopher syndrome rampant today shouldn't require more than a minute to dispense of their utter nonsense and quite frankly, outright lies in many of them, regarding infinite regression. It's been settled to the point that it can be asserted & if an atheist wants to fight it with hypothetical Sets just let him go off & argue with deep fried poop. The very presence of a "debate" only serves to illustrate someone's gone crazy & has begun to babble :) (BTW, I don't mean the tailend of what's played here in the comments...sounds like fun) Anyway... YeahAbsolutely
February 24, 2018
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Hey jdk, good to see you. Yes, this topic is like a perpetual motion machine.daveS
January 4, 2018
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Again this topic??? I feel for you, Dave. "Infinite distance" is not a well defined mathematical term. The set of all integers is infinite, but no two integers are an "infinite distance" apart, for what that's worth.jdk
January 4, 2018
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Origenes, Thanks, but I'm going to let someone else field this one.daveS
January 4, 2018
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DaveS
O: BTW if you are correct and there is always an infinite number of visited positions on the left of the traveler, then there was once an infinite number of unvisited positions on the right of the traveler.
DaveS: 0___0 It’s a lot easier to post these fallacious arguments than it is to refute them. I don’t think I can keep up.
Unwarranted response. Let's break it down: 1.
O: there is always an infinite number of visited positions on the left of the traveler ...
DaveS: ... there are always infinitely many positions on his left.
2.
O: ... then there was once an infinite number of unvisited positions on the right of the traveler.
DaveS: Each position was on his right in the past ...
So, infinite positions on the left, which were all on the travelar's right in the past. How is anything I've said "fallacious"?Origenes
January 4, 2018
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Origenes,
BTW if you are correct and there is always an infinite number of visited positions on the left of the traveler, then there was once an infinite number of unvisited positions on the right of the traveler.
0___0 It's a lot easier to post these fallacious arguments than it is to refute them. I don't think I can keep up.daveS
January 4, 2018
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DaveS For any point in time goes that I am infinitely serious. BTW if you are correct and there is always an infinite number of visited positions on the left of the traveler, then there was once an infinite number of unvisited positions on the right of the traveler. So we have an infinite number of positions on both sides of the traveler. It's getting weirder. An infinite number of positions on the right causes many problems for your position.Origenes
January 4, 2018
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Origenes, This is one of those times when I really doubt you are being serious...daveS
January 4, 2018
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DaveS: Choose any position, and it must be some nonnegative integer number n steps from the front of the line. The iPad would have been to its left n + 1 seconds ago. Therefore no position is always inaccessible.
Cannot be true. Choose any position and there is a inaccessible position on its left. At every point in time there are inaccessible positions — a general observation without specifics. During his entire travel there are always positions inaccessible to the traveler. If there are always positions inaccessible, then logic informs us that one cannot have accessed them all.Origenes
January 4, 2018
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Origenes, To answer #272, "always inaccessible" means "always to the left of the iPad". Choose any position, and it must be some nonnegative integer number n steps from the front of the line. The iPad would have been to its left n + 1 seconds ago. Therefore no position is always inaccessible.daveS
January 4, 2018
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Origenes, To answer your #272 first: No. Suppose you just took a slow 10-minute walk. Then each of your feet would have been off the ground at various times, but it's likely (or at least possible) that there was no time when both feet were off the ground.daveS
January 4, 2018
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DaveS: But they were on his right in the past. Each position was on his right in the past, despite the fact that there are always infinitely many positions on his left.
Each position was on the right of the traveler in the past .... So, at one point in time, the traveler looked to the right and saw all and each positions (except for the one he visited at that same point in time)? - - - - A.Sauber, The concepts 'potential' and 'actual' may play an important role in this story.Origenes
January 4, 2018
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Do there exist specific positions which were never accessible?
When something is strictly imaginary (like the attempt to utilize something called infinity), things that don't or can't exist appear to be possible. The question is wrong. The question is "Do there exist specific positions in your imagination which were never accessible?" Depends on what you like to imagine. Andrewasauber
January 4, 2018
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DaveS, as I already stated in #266, I cannot name specific positions that were always inaccessible to the traveler. But I am no mathematician. Edit: however, for every position goes limited access, so they must exist. Perhaps there is a term for them.Origenes
January 4, 2018
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Origenes,
Irrelevant to the issue at hand.
Please answer the question.daveS
January 4, 2018
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DaveS: Do there exist specific positions which were never accessible?
Irrelevant to the issue at hand. My argument is based on the insight that, given a strict rightward traveler, for every position goes that there is only access to the right and no access to the left of the traveler. This ‘limited access’ (LA) is a problem which must be solved in order to have access to all positions. However, as we have seen, LA exists on every position at each time. Although LA differs in its specifics at each position, it never differs in its general form (which can be described as: ‘no access to positions on the left’). So, the general form of LA, is a problem which exists independent from specifics and therefore specific positions are irrelevant to the problem. To be clear, the problem of LA cannot be solved by specific positions.Origenes
January 4, 2018
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Origenes, Actually it was not tongue in cheek, although I wasn't clear on your reasoning when I wrote it. Edited: Do there exist specific positions which were never accessible?daveS
January 4, 2018
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DaveS: But there are no positions that were always inaccessible to the traveler. Each position was/is accessible at some moment.
In #245 you wrote (tongue in cheek): “.. name one by giving its distance (in number of steps) from the front of the line” and here you implicitly do something similar. Indeed, you are right, I cannot name specific positions that were always inaccessible to the traveler. However, for my argument it is not required to point out specific positions and show that they are inaccessible. And that is very convenient for me, since it cannot be done. All I need to do is point out that at every point in time there are inaccessible positions — a general observation without specifics. During his entire travel there are always positions inaccessible to the traveler. If there are always positions inaccessible, then logic informs us that one cannot have accessed them all.Origenes
January 4, 2018
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Origenes, But there are no positions that were always inaccessible to the traveler. Each position was/is accessible at some moment.daveS
January 4, 2018
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DaveS: 4. At every point in time t_P, there are infinitely many positions that the traveler cannot visit after time t_P.
Indeed, at every point in time t_P, there are (infinitely many) positions that the traveler cannot visit (at that moment in time). But that’s all I need to make the point: During his entire travel there are always positions inaccessible to the traveler. If there are always positions inaccessible, then logic informs us that one cannot have accessed them all.Origenes
January 4, 2018
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Origenes, We need to qualify (1), (2), and (4), to take into account that the "positions on his right" depend on time. Suppose the traveler is at position P at time t_P. Then:
1. The rightward traveler can only visit positions to the right of P at times later than t_P. 2. The rightward traveler cannot visit positions situated to the left of P at or after t_P. 3. At every point in time, there are infinitely many positions on the traveler's left. (No changes needed here). From (2) and(3): 4. At every point in time t_P, there are infinitely many positions that the traveler cannot visit after time t_P.
daveS
January 4, 2018
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DaveS,
DaveS #259: Each position was on his right in the past, despite the fact that there are always infinitely many positions on his left.
O: That is incoherent. … If there is no point in time that the traveler has all aligned positions in front of him — if there is no point in time where he can look to the right and see them all — then at no point in time is he in a position to visit them all.
DaveS #261: I just don’t see anything incoherent about my statement in #259, or how it would prevent the traveler from visiting all positions.
Please explain why, according to you, it is unnecessary for the traveler to be in a position to visit all positions. Logic informs us that if the traveler was never in such a position, then he could not have visited all positions. Perhaps you can point out which step you disagree with. 1. The rightward traveler can only visit positions situated on his right. 2. The rightward traveler cannot visit positions situated on his left. 3. “At every point in time, there are infinitely many positions on the traveler’s left.” Therefore, from (2) and (3) 4. At every point in time, there are (infinitely many) positions that the traveler cannot visit. Therefore, 5. It cannot be the case that the traveler visited every position.Origenes
January 4, 2018
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Origenes, I just don't see anything incoherent about my statement in #259, or how it would prevent the traveler from visiting all positions. If we were supposing that there must be a "first visitation", where the traveler visits a leftmost position, then I would agree with you, but that's not the case here.daveS
January 4, 2018
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DaveS: But they were on his right in the past.
Okay, but then I want to talk about that time in the past. The time before he visits them.
DaveS: Each position was on his right in the past, despite the fact that there are always infinitely many positions on his left.
That is incoherent. If there are "always infinitely many positions on his left", then at no point in time can the rightward traveler visit/access them all. IOWs, at any point in time, every position the traveler visits has infinite neighboring positions on its left, which he cannot access. If there is no point in time that the traveler has all aligned positions in front of him — if there is no point in time where he can look to the right and see them all — then at no point in time is he in a position to visit them all.Origenes
January 3, 2018
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Because our rightward traveler cannot visit positions which are on his left.
But they were on his right in the past. Each position was on his right in the past, despite the fact that there are always infinitely many positions on his left.daveS
January 3, 2018
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DaveS: There would always be positions on his left, but there are no particular positions that would always be on his left.
If there are always positions on his left, then, at no point in time, the rightward traveler can visit all positions. Why? Because our rightward traveler cannot visit positions which are on his left. At no point in time he is in a position to visit them all.Origenes
January 3, 2018
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Origenes,
— if the traveler never had all positions before him in time — then some positions must have been always on the left of him. Positions which are always on his left are, by definition, never visited by the rightward traveler, who (obviously) only visits positions on his right.
There would always be positions on his left, but there are no particular positions that would always be on his left.daveS
January 3, 2018
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DaveS Okay, let me redo #252:
DaveS: I agree that each position was, at some time depending on the position, to the right of the traveler, but how do we know they all were, simultaneously?
For one thing, if it was never the case that all positions were simultaneously on the right of (or at the same place as) the traveler, — if the traveler never had all positions before him in time — then some positions must have been always on the left of him. Positions which are always on his left are, by definition, never visited by the rightward traveler, who (obviously) only visits positions on his right.Origenes
January 3, 2018
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Origenes, I don't know what it means for positions to be visited "magically" but not by the traveler. As far as I am concerned, they are either visited by the traveler or not, and that's it.daveS
January 3, 2018
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DaveS. Is there a mathematical/logical contradiction in "positions are visited, not by the traveler, but somehow *magically*"? If there is not, then your premises are irrefutable.Origenes
January 3, 2018
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