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God as a necessary, maximally great, endless being vs. the challenge to an actual infinity

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In a recent thread, the Kalam Cosmological argument family was challenged on the issue: can an actual infinity exist? If not (presumably due to Hilbert’s Hotel-like absurdities), then God could not be an infinite being as such is impossible of being.

A thread of discussion developed, and I thought a summary intervention may be helpful. On further thought, perhaps it should be headlined:

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KF, 12: >> I think several themes are worth highlighting.

It can be discussed that non-being, true nothingness cannot be a causal source. Were there ever utter nothing, such would therefore forever obtain. There would be no world.But, manifestly, there is a world.

So, we must ponder the logic of being, at least in a nutshell.

Candidates to being may be such that core characteristics central to identity stand in mutual contradiction such as those of a square circle. Such are impossible of being. And, we see principles of distinct identity necessarily embedded from the outset, especially that truths must be all so together so X and Y where Y = ~ X is not a possible state of affairs. If something could exist in a possible world were it actualised as a state of affairs, it is a possible being.

Of these, some Z can be in at least one possible world Wi, but not in another “neighbouring” one, Wj — contingent beings. The difference Wi – Wj will contain some unmet on-off enabling circumstance for Z . . . a necessary causal condition or factor for Z, say C. If Z is a fire, it requires heat, fuel, oxidiser and an uninterfered-with combustion chain reaction (cf. how Halon extinguishers work).

By contrast, we can see a being N that has no dependence on any such C, which will be in any and all possible worlds. That is, N is a necessary being and will be part of the common framework for any world W to exist. For example, distinct identity (A vs ~A) entails that two-ness and so also the endless set of naturals, must exist. [Beyond which lie the transfinites and the surreals as illustrated.] And, without necessary causal factors C, such has no beginning or end. Given that a world exists, at least one being N must be necessary. (Theists, classically hold that things like numbers are eternally contemplated by God, for instance.)

Any given case Ni is eternal, causeless, framework for any possible world, enabling and structuring it in some way. Notice, eternality not infinity, has been asserted, on the strength that for some W to be, some N must be as key to its framework. We readily see this for two-ness etc.

Such is strange to our ears, maybe, but that is a fault of our education not the logic.

Now too, our world is one of finite stage causal succession as we can see from succession of generations. But it is dubious for such to have existed to the infinitely — endlessly — remote past, as to succeed from some stage s_k to s_k+1, s_k+2 etc is equivalent to a counting succession 0,1,2 . . . which succeeds without limit but in an instance will be such that some later s_p to s_p+1, s_p+2 etc can again be matched 1:1 with 0,1,2 . . . thus showing that a transfinite span, credibly, cannot be traversed in finite-stage successive, cumulative steps. Thus if we are at a now, no S_k is transfinitely remote, even beyond say a big bang at 13.8 BYA. Our world W_a is credibly not some Ni, and has a beginning. It has a cause, a capable, sufficient one.

Where, we exist therein as responsibly and rationally free, morally governed creatures. This constrains the N_a that is at the world-root. For, post Hume et al, only at that level can the IS-OUGHT gap be soundly bridged. And we all know that after centuries of debate, only one serious candidate stands — just put up a viable alternative if you think you can. Good luck with that: ______ (Predictably, a fail.)

This is: the inherently good creator God, a necessary and maximally great being; worthy of loyalty and of the reasonable, responsible service of doing the good in accord with our evident nature.

But, what about, God is infinite?

I suggest, this first means that God is not externally limited or weakened so that he can be defeated or utterly frustrated in his purposes. Which, is among other things a way of saying that God is not evil, that being the privation, frustration or perversion of good capabilities out of their proper end.

God is also eternal and indestructible, as he has no dependence on external, on/off enabling causal factors. Thus, his being is without beginning or end, endless. This, being a characteristic of necessary being, which is required once a world is.

So, I think we need to reflect on what sense is meant when it is suggested that an actual infinity is impossible of being, and what are its strengths and limitations. For sure, an endless past of finite stage causal succession seems impossible and a physical, materially based infinite quantity is also dubious. But, the transfinite set of natural numbers and beyond the surreals great and small all seem necessary — framework to any world. Which in turn suggests mind capable of such a contemplation.

And more.>>

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Food for thought. END

Comments
KF: The transfinite cannot be traversed in successive steps.
I agree.
KF: The answer is finitely remote world root of necessary being character.
Something must be the foundation of reality.
KF: Where such a being will be framework to any possible world, just as no world can exist without distinct identity thus two-ness.
If you could create a world, then you would be the cause of that world. If we say that, in an ultimate sense, since the First Cause created you, the First Cause created the world you created, then we presuppose determinism and discount the possibility of you creating your world by your own personal free will. While it is the case that the First Cause is foundational to your existence, it is not necessarily the case that the First Cause is the only free actor.
KF: Such a being will be independent of on/off switch, enabling causal factors, it will not be like a fire.
I agree, such a being must be an indivisible unity.
KF: Such a mode of being is such that a serious candidate necessary being will either be impossible due to contradictory core characteristics or it will be in any possible world and actual in this one.
I don’t understand, by what logic must it be in any possible world?
KF: It will be tied to the framework for a world to exist at all.
There is no reality, and hence no world, without a First Cause. But the First Cause has chosen not to be the only actor, so, in principle, others can create a world as well.
KF: Again, try the exercise of imagining a world where distinct identity does not exist, so two-ness does not exist, or where two-ness came into being, or ceases from being. You will find, not possible, any world Wi has characteristics that distinguish it in principle from not that world ~ Wi, two-ness is bound up in that distinct identity, and so are the core laws of logic . . . there can be no world where LOI, LNC and LEM do not obtain, nor the naturals and their directly connected extensions, which is very powerful indeed.
I agree fully.
KF: Thus we see how such a being can be and is in a simple case.
There is a First Cause.Origenes
December 14, 2017
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Origenes, sorry typo, an infinite successive chain of finite stage causes, as I discussed in my OP. The transfinite cannot be traversed in successive steps. The answer is finitely r5emote world root of necessary being character. Where such a being will be framework to any possible world, just as no world can exist without distinct identity thus two-ness. Such a being will be independent of on/off switch, enabling causal factors, it will not be like a fire. Such a mode of being is such that a serious candidate necessary being will either be impossible due to contradictory core characteristics or it will be in any possible world and actual in this one. It will be tied to the framework for a world to exist at all. Again, try the exercise of imagining a world where distinct identity does not exist, so two-ness does not exist, or where two-ness came into being, or ceases from being. You will find, not possible, any world Wi has characteristics that distinguish it in principle from not that world ~ Wi, two-ness is bound up in that distinct identity, and so are the core laws of logic . . . there can be no world where LOI, LNC and LEM do not obtain, nor the naturals and their directly connected extensions, which is very powerful indeed. Thus we see how such a being can be and is in a simple case. KFkairosfocus
December 14, 2017
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KF @8
KF: we are part of a world. Such a world cannot come from utter non-being nor from circular cause, nor from a chain of stages of cause-effect.
Yet, the world can come from a cause A, which, in turn, is caused by X.
KF: This leaves necessary being as ground of reality, the issue is, of what character.
Not so fast! We must consider the possible scenario that our world is caused by A and that there is another world caused by B.
KF: Where, necessary being will be framework to reality existing, thus any world, not just this one.
Only if we consider the cause for all of reality do we arrive at one single cause.Origenes
December 14, 2017
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Origines, kindly, consider whether distinct identity and so also two-ness had a beginning or can cease to be. Nope. We are so used to contingent beings that we find it hard to understand another mode of possible being is there, by the force of logic of being -- and is exemplified in so familiar an entity as the number 2. Such beings have no dependence on on/off enabling causal factors [by contrast with a fire, a classic case of contingent being], and so a serious candidate to be like that will either be impossible of being or else will exist in the framework of any possible world. And this is not playing with definitions, we are looking at the nature of being per its logic and are considering cases in point. BTW, distinct identity [A vs ~ A] is the root of logic and of mathematics, which answers to why mathematics seems so unreasonably effective in studying the physical world around us. A possible world being in effect a reasonably complete coherent description of a way the or a world may be or is if actualised. A first, self-moved cause, may be contingent, us, or it may be necessary, presumably: God. Self-moved implicates reflexivity, especially acting on oneself by responsible rational freedom -- such as ourselves. I choose to compose an OP and responsive comments, and actuate my fingers to do the typing, leading to a combox draft, then I submit and it is in the world through a mechanical chain of onward cause-effect bonds in cascade. So, it is not just necessary for this world, but necessary, period. KFkairosfocus
December 14, 2017
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The following is an argument I’ve developed for the existence of a transcendent, self-existent mind (God) which I think is a logical defeater for the idea that an infinite regress of “natural” causes is a good explanation for our existence. (1)Everything that begins to exist is contingent. (2)Anything that is contingent has an explanation for its existence. (It must be caused by something else.) (3)If the universe is contingent it has an explanation for its existence. (4)If the universe began to exist it must be contingent. (5)However, it is logically possible that something exists which is not contingent. (6)If such a being exists it exists necessarily. In other words, it is eternal or self-existent. (7)A necessary or self-existent being is not explained by anything else. Conclusion #1: Therefore, only a necessarily existing being could be the ultimate explanation for everything else. Conclusion #2: Therefore an infinite regress of contingent causes can never reach an ultimate explanation. Some implications: A necessary or self-existing being must have causal power. If it is the cause of the universe it must have sufficient power to cause the universe. It must have volitional intentionality. In other words, it does not need to create anything, it freely decides or chooses to create. It must be transcendent due to the fact that it is not contingent. It must have mind and intelligence as well as personal self-consciousness. This idea fits very nicely with a basic classical conception of God. In other words, if something is contingent then it cannot be necessary. If a necessary being exists it cannot be contingent. If it is even logically possible for the universe to be contingent how can we claim that it is necessary? In other words, if it is logically possible for the universe to be contingent then it cannot be logically necessary for it to be ontologically necessary. If a transcendent necessary being exists then it is logically necessary that it is ontologically necessary.john_a_designer
December 14, 2017
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Origines, we are part of a world. Such a world cannot come from utter non-being nor from circular cause, nor from a chain of stages of cause-effect. This leaves necessary being as ground of reality, the issue is, of what character. Thence the further constraint that we deal with the morally governed and significantly free, just to be able to responsibly discuss. Where, necessary being will be framework to reality existing, thus any world, not just this one. KFkairosfocus
December 14, 2017
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Dick @6
Dick: Perhaps it’d be better to define ‘world’ as the entirety of contingent reality.
To be clear: the world is “contingent”, because it has a cause. And the cause is “necessary”, given that the world exists.
Dick: If so, the cause of the world cannot be contingent since then it’d be part of the world and the cause of itself.
So, the cause of the world cannot be ‘contingent’ (cannot be caused) because we have defined the cause as ‘necessary’? That would be assuming the conclusion, and that is exactly what I object to. As I have argued in #3, I am ‘necessary’ for my actions to exist, but that 'state of being necessary' does not exempt me from having an explanation. Similarly, the cause of a world X is not exempt from having an explanation, simply because it is the ‘necessary’ cause for that world.Origenes
December 14, 2017
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Origenes @3: "The only valid reason for stopping, in my opinion, is that by 'world' we are referring to the reality as an entirety." Perhaps it'd be better to define 'world' as the entirety of contingent reality. If so, the cause of the world cannot be contingent since then it'd be part of the world and the cause of itself. The cause must therefore be non-contingent or necessary.Dick
December 14, 2017
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KF,
I suggest, this first means that God is not externally limited or weakened so that he can be defeated or utterly frustrated in his purposes. Which, is among other things a way of saying that God is not evil, that being the privation, frustration or perversion of good capabilities out of their proper end. God is also eternal and indestructible, as he has no dependence on external, on/off enabling causal factors. Thus, his being is without beginning or end, endless. This, being a characteristic of necessary being, which is required once a world is.
In my experience, when people say that God is "infinite", they mean He has infinite powers, and that He can/could do anything outside the logically impossible. For example, let's say the universe is finite in size, and consists of n fundamental particles. Then perhaps God could also have created a universe with 2n, 3n, 4n, and so on fundamental particles. In other words, in order to be infinite, God must have some power which is unbounded.daveS
December 14, 2017
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KF, Thanks for writing this OP, a timely thought-provoking invitation to serious discussion on fundamental issues, right when we approach the traditional dates chosen for the celebration of a unique event that changed human history for good. Emmanuel became a reality, as it had been prophesied long before, and with it God's immeasurable grace was poured over His sinfully rebellious creatures to save them from deserved damnation. But many have rejected the gracious offer, because this world prefers to sing Paul Anka's song "My way" (Sinatra's version was 75 weeks in the UK Top 40, a record still today). Along with John Lennon's "Imagine" they are practically the hymn of Hades.Dionisio
December 14, 2017
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KF: Given that a world exists, at least one being N must be necessary.
N is necessary for that world to exist. The world could not exist without N. This reminds me of ‘cogito ergo sum’, which I habitually cast into the incoherent form: “I doubt my existence, therefore I exist.” This draws attention to the impossibility for a non-existent entity to doubt its existence. In order for me to doubt my existence I must exist. The demand to explain my activity makes my existence “necessary.” Given that we seek understanding, the fact that a world exists, presupposes its cause — let’s call it the ‘First Cause’. How is logical that we stop there? Why not say: “Given that a First Cause exists, there must be cause for the First Cause?” We cannot say, in my opinion, “because that First Cause exists necessarily”. I also “necessarily” exist as an explanation for my activity (see above), but that necessity does not entail that my existence does not require an explanation. The only valid reason for stopping, in my opinion, is that by “world” we are referring to the reality as an entirety. So, the question is “what explains reality in its entirety?” And the answer: “The First Cause”. Given that we are talking about that which is foundational to all of reality, we can now see that it doesn’t make sense to ask “And what caused the First Cause?” Why doesn’t it make sense? Because there is no candidate available, since we referred to all of reality. If A causes all of reality, then there is nothing that can cause A.Origenes
December 14, 2017
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kf, I think the simple answer is God is not subject to the rules of our universe that make an actual infinity an absurdity. We don't really know what an infinity is/would be, anyway. So, I think, we are going beyond our capacities in this area. Just my 2 centavos. Andrewasauber
December 14, 2017
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Is God a necessary (so, eternal), maximally great being without external limit to his being and power? How does this interact with the idea that no actual infinity is possible? (Does this, say, include that transfinite numbers and infinitesimals are impossible?) KFkairosfocus
December 14, 2017
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