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God as a necessary, maximally great, endless being vs. the challenge to an actual infinity

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In a recent thread, the Kalam Cosmological argument family was challenged on the issue: can an actual infinity exist? If not (presumably due to Hilbert’s Hotel-like absurdities), then God could not be an infinite being as such is impossible of being.

A thread of discussion developed, and I thought a summary intervention may be helpful. On further thought, perhaps it should be headlined:

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KF, 12: >> I think several themes are worth highlighting.

It can be discussed that non-being, true nothingness cannot be a causal source. Were there ever utter nothing, such would therefore forever obtain. There would be no world.But, manifestly, there is a world.

So, we must ponder the logic of being, at least in a nutshell.

Candidates to being may be such that core characteristics central to identity stand in mutual contradiction such as those of a square circle. Such are impossible of being. And, we see principles of distinct identity necessarily embedded from the outset, especially that truths must be all so together so X and Y where Y = ~ X is not a possible state of affairs. If something could exist in a possible world were it actualised as a state of affairs, it is a possible being.

Of these, some Z can be in at least one possible world Wi, but not in another “neighbouring” one, Wj — contingent beings. The difference Wi – Wj will contain some unmet on-off enabling circumstance for Z . . . a necessary causal condition or factor for Z, say C. If Z is a fire, it requires heat, fuel, oxidiser and an uninterfered-with combustion chain reaction (cf. how Halon extinguishers work).

By contrast, we can see a being N that has no dependence on any such C, which will be in any and all possible worlds. That is, N is a necessary being and will be part of the common framework for any world W to exist. For example, distinct identity (A vs ~A) entails that two-ness and so also the endless set of naturals, must exist. [Beyond which lie the transfinites and the surreals as illustrated.] And, without necessary causal factors C, such has no beginning or end. Given that a world exists, at least one being N must be necessary. (Theists, classically hold that things like numbers are eternally contemplated by God, for instance.)

Any given case Ni is eternal, causeless, framework for any possible world, enabling and structuring it in some way. Notice, eternality not infinity, has been asserted, on the strength that for some W to be, some N must be as key to its framework. We readily see this for two-ness etc.

Such is strange to our ears, maybe, but that is a fault of our education not the logic.

Now too, our world is one of finite stage causal succession as we can see from succession of generations. But it is dubious for such to have existed to the infinitely — endlessly — remote past, as to succeed from some stage s_k to s_k+1, s_k+2 etc is equivalent to a counting succession 0,1,2 . . . which succeeds without limit but in an instance will be such that some later s_p to s_p+1, s_p+2 etc can again be matched 1:1 with 0,1,2 . . . thus showing that a transfinite span, credibly, cannot be traversed in finite-stage successive, cumulative steps. Thus if we are at a now, no S_k is transfinitely remote, even beyond say a big bang at 13.8 BYA. Our world W_a is credibly not some Ni, and has a beginning. It has a cause, a capable, sufficient one.

Where, we exist therein as responsibly and rationally free, morally governed creatures. This constrains the N_a that is at the world-root. For, post Hume et al, only at that level can the IS-OUGHT gap be soundly bridged. And we all know that after centuries of debate, only one serious candidate stands — just put up a viable alternative if you think you can. Good luck with that: ______ (Predictably, a fail.)

This is: the inherently good creator God, a necessary and maximally great being; worthy of loyalty and of the reasonable, responsible service of doing the good in accord with our evident nature.

But, what about, God is infinite?

I suggest, this first means that God is not externally limited or weakened so that he can be defeated or utterly frustrated in his purposes. Which, is among other things a way of saying that God is not evil, that being the privation, frustration or perversion of good capabilities out of their proper end.

God is also eternal and indestructible, as he has no dependence on external, on/off enabling causal factors. Thus, his being is without beginning or end, endless. This, being a characteristic of necessary being, which is required once a world is.

So, I think we need to reflect on what sense is meant when it is suggested that an actual infinity is impossible of being, and what are its strengths and limitations. For sure, an endless past of finite stage causal succession seems impossible and a physical, materially based infinite quantity is also dubious. But, the transfinite set of natural numbers and beyond the surreals great and small all seem necessary — framework to any world. Which in turn suggests mind capable of such a contemplation.

And more.>>

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Food for thought. END

Comments
The relevant power series in 10^-n has no final term n_final with n_final equals "infinity," it embeds endlessness multiplied by convergence. The ellipsis is really significant.kairosfocus
January 1, 2018
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DaveS To be clear, my reasoning goes as follows: A: I have a set of positions which has been (1) traversed solely rightward & (2) has been visited at all positions. B: If that is true, then your set must have a farthest position to the left, which has been visited. Because for any set, that is the only way to accomplish both (1) and (2). A: Uh ... my set has no farthest position to the left, because on the left my set is infinite. B: Ah! Then you do NOT "have a set of positions which has been (1) traversed solely rightward & (2) has been visited at all positions."Origenes
January 1, 2018
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KF,
PS: the idea of transfinitely many digits of pi is an abstraction that is in principle delivered all at once by the meaning of whatever power series or series is used to deliver pi. That is utterly distinct from +1 succession r-ward to span a transfinite expanse from L-ward.
Yes, this discussion about π is distinct from the traversal question, but the issues are related. Each digit in the expansion has a well-defined distance from the decimal point. The question is whether any of these digits are indeed infinitely remote from the decimal point. Based on your recent post, your answer is "yes". Is that correct?daveS
January 1, 2018
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Origenes, You have observed that for finite sets (where there is an element "farthest to the left"), a traversal must visit that element farthest to the left. You haven't proved that this requirement also holds for sets with no element farthest to the left (one can't, obviously). You have drawn a false analogy, where the concept "farthest item on the left", which does exist in the finite case, has no counterpart in the case of the iPad example. Regarding definitions, according to #216, it appears that you are simply choosing to interpret the statement "a set has been traversed to the right and visited at all positions" as meaning (in part) that the set has an element farthest to the left. Based on your next post, it looks like you are really saying that "the set has an element farthest to the left" is a logical consequence of the statement, so I withdraw my complaint about definitions.daveS
January 1, 2018
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DS, the meaning of being in the chain imples that now token holder plus all to L-ward must have held T. The problem is not there, it lies in adding that as the process is increment +1 in succession the L-ward extension can be transfinite in extent AND T reaches n at some point, now. For if L-ward is transfinite and every member must hold the T, stepwise increment has to span the transfinite. But we know as shown already that it is too weak to do that. KF PS: the idea of transfinitely many digits of pi is an abstraction that is in principle delivered all at once by the meaning of whatever power series or series is used to deliver pi. That is utterly distinct from +1 succession r-ward to span a transfinite expanse from L-ward.kairosfocus
January 1, 2018
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DaveS,
O: Consider the set {1, 2, 3 …, 9}. Suppose one travels this set rightward (towards the 9), which position must be visited in order to visit them all? The farthest to the left perhaps?
DaveS: Yes.
For 'going rightward' & 'visit all positions', it is logically required to visit position (1) — the farthest position on the left. There is no other method to fulfill both "only going rightward" and "visit all positions", than to visit the position "the farthest on the left".
O: I require for a set — that has been traversed only to the right and has been visited at all positions — that it has a farthest point on the left.
DaveS: You can require whatever you want; adding this extra condition just means you are using a different definition than pretty much everyone else, so communication becomes difficult.
Adding an "extra condition"? I am pointing to a logical requirement! Using a "different definition"? Of what?Origenes
January 1, 2018
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Origenes, You can require whatever you want; adding this extra condition just means you are using a different definition than pretty much everyone else, so communication becomes difficult.daveS
December 31, 2017
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DaveS: You can require that a square have a fourth corner.
Similarly, I require for a set — that has been traversed to the right and has been visited at all positions — that it has a farthest point on the left.Origenes
December 31, 2017
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Just saw this:
Consider the set {1, 2, 3 …, 9}. Suppose one travels this set rightward (towards the 9), which position must be visited in order to visit them all? The farthest to the left perhaps?
Yes.daveS
December 31, 2017
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Origenes, You can require that a square have a fourth corner. If it has three but not four corners, it's a triangle and not a square. This is not really analogous to the situation under discussion, btw. Edit: Reading this post again, the best answer is simply that I would not say "for a triangle to be a square, X must be the case" in any form. A triangle cannot be a square, period.daveS
December 31, 2017
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DaveS @212 Suppose that I claim that a triangle is, in fact, a square. To show me wrong you would, perhaps, say:
for a triangle to be a square it needs to have a 'Fourth Corner.'
"What do you mean by this 'fourth corner'?", I answer. "The 'Fourth Corner' has no referent. You can’t require that the triangle has something which literally does not exist." What would you tell me to do with my claim?Origenes
December 31, 2017
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Origenes, I (still) disagree. Suppose I said "One has to visit the man holding the square circle in order to visit all positions". Do you agree with that? (Hopefully not) The issue is that neither "the farthest point of the left" nor "the man holding the square circle" has a referent. You can't require that the iPad visit positions which literally do not exist.daveS
December 31, 2017
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DaveS: No, I disagree, because there is no farthest point of the left.
That is not an answer to my question, which is irrespective whether there is a farthest point or not. Here it is again:
Going rightward, one has to visit the farthest point of the left in order to visit all positions. Agree?
- - - edit: Consider the set {1, 2, 3 ..., 9}. Suppose one travels this set rightward (towards the 9), which position must be visited in order to visit them all? The farthest to the left perhaps?Origenes
December 31, 2017
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Origenes, No, I disagree, because there is no farthest point of the left.daveS
December 31, 2017
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DaveS, Answer me this: Going rightward, one has to visit the farthest point of the left in order to visit all positions. Agree? If so, we do not have a problem.Origenes
December 31, 2017
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Origenes, mfw I think we still have a problem ...daveS
December 31, 2017
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DaveS @206 Sure, no problem: - - - - 1. The iPad visited all positions on the infinite left. 2. The iPad always goes rightward. Therefore, from (1) and (2) 3. The iPad must have visited the farthest point of the left, in order to visit all positions on the left. 4. There is no farthest point of the left. Therefore, from (3) and (4) 5. The iPad did not visit all positions on the left.Origenes
December 31, 2017
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Origenes, You are correct that there is no "first left", but then I don't know what you mean when you use that term several times in your argument. Can you rephrase the argument with no use of "first left"?daveS
December 31, 2017
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KF, It's an assumption intended to assist Origenes in a reductio ad absurdum only. That's how reductio arguments work. Please don't pretend otherwise. In the conversation between you and me, that assumption has been withdrawn, as you apparently prefer direct proofs. Edit: I infer from the rest of your post that you choose option A, which I described earlier. There are digits in the decimal expansion of π infinitely far from the decimal point.daveS
December 31, 2017
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DaveS @202 For any position, going rightward is not a method to visit positions on the left. If all positions on the left have been visited, it follows that the iPad must have (already) visited the ‘First Left.’ If the iPad, going rightward, did not visit the First Left, then it never will. However, there is no First Left, since the left is infinite. - - - - - - 1. The iPad visited all positions on the infinite left. 2. The iPad always goes rightward. Therefore, from (1) and (2) 3. The iPad must have visited the First Left, in order to visit all positions on the left. 4. There is no First Left. Therefore, from (3) and (4) 5. The iPad did not visit all positions on the left.Origenes
December 31, 2017
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DS, there you go on the assumptions. Assuming the Token's journey never had a beginning implies leftward endlessness already completed at any particular value. The possibility of such endlessness is what is at stake. This is where the criteria for membership in the chain and their consequences help us. For leftward endlessness of the chain to hold, there must be members at every actual stage. Were this to include members endlessly remote leftwards, then the +1, stepwise passing process has no power to actually traverse endlessness to reach within a finite range of n. So, if the token is passing up to n, no member of the actual chain is transfinitely remote. We may therefore conclude it had a beginning leftward. This is linked to the case that if every member is finitely remote, the whole chain -- unlike an ellipsis of endlessness [which points to what we cannot attain in steps] -- is finite to the left. KFkairosfocus
December 30, 2017
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Origenes, It definitely does only go to the right (and incidentally cannot skip anyone in line). The only way this could happen, assuming it misses some positions, is if some particular person had the iPad first.daveS
December 30, 2017
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DaveS @200
DaveS: … if you are correct, the iPad could only be held by finitely many people in the line.
If the iPad only goes to the right, then only finitely many people could have held it. I agree.
DaveS: Therefore, it would be possible in principle to describe the path of the iPad completely (say by listing the numbers corresponding to those who held it). Would you please do that for an example path?
I don’t think it’s possible. And if it were possible I would probably not interested. For me it is enough to refute your incoherent concept by logic.Origenes
December 30, 2017
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Origenes, I'm honestly not sure that you're serious, but if you are correct, the iPad could only be held by finitely many people in the line. Therefore, it would be possible in principle to describe the path of the iPad completely (say by listing the numbers corresponding to those who held it). Would you please do that for an example path?daveS
December 30, 2017
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DaveS @198
DaveS: It seems you are still thinking of the iPad entering the entire chain at some time, so that some particular person will be first to get it (and then they have to decide whether to pass it to the left or the right).
I do not think of iPad entering the chain at some time.
DaveS: That is not what is happening. The assumption is that each person in the line receives/received the iPad from the person standing behind him. There is no person who received the iPad first.
I know. Stop worrying. Again, my reasoning does not start by assuming that the iPad must enter the chain at some time. Instead, it goes like this: Because there are infinite positions to the left, there are only two options available for the iPad to visit them all:
1. Go to the left. 2. Go to the right, but depart from the ‘First left.’ (1) Is a journey with no return. (2) Is not possible, since there is no ‘First left’.
Both options fail, ergo, the iPad misses positions on the left.Origenes
December 30, 2017
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Origenes, It seems you are still thinking of the iPad entering the entire chain at some time, so that some particular person will be first to get it (and then they have to decide whether to pass it to the left or the right). That is not what is happening. The assumption is that each person in the line receives/received the iPad from the person standing behind him. There is no person who received the iPad first.daveS
December 30, 2017
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KF, Obviously we cannot fully expand π in decimal form, but each of its decimal digits exists necessarily. I suspect you would agree that God knows all decimal digits of π. Furthermore, this sequence of digits pairs up one-to-one with the people in the line passing the iPad around. If there is someone in the queue infinitely distant from John, then there is a digit in the decimal expansion infinitely far from the decimal point. Therefore the question is, which statement is true, A or B? Perhaps consider how God would answer this question, since He can comprehend the entire infinite collection of digits.daveS
December 30, 2017
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Ds we cannot fully expand pi, and the digits in principle continue endlessly, there being no last reachable digit. There is an implied power series and its endlessness is a structural part of what it is, of course coupled with convergence so beyond some partial sum, onward partial sums will be within a delta neighbourhood of the limit, never mind how small (but finite) we set delta at. KFkairosfocus
December 30, 2017
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KF, To the extent I understand your #194, I don't know that I disagree with any of it. Going back to my #192, which is true, A or B?daveS
December 30, 2017
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DS, to be a member of the chain requires that one has passed the token or just received it. If transfinitely long, that requires actual members. As for expanding pi, it is endless, there is no last digit. We cannot exhaust how far it goes because we are finite, we can only point onward. KFkairosfocus
December 30, 2017
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