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He said it: Prof Lewontin’s strawman “justification” for imposing a priori materialist censorship on origins science

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Yesterday, in the P Z Myers quote-mining and distortion thread, I happened to cite Lewontin’s infamous 1997 remark in his NYRB article, “Billions and Billions of Demons,” on a priori imposition of materialist censorship on origins science, which reads in the crucial part:

It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door.

To my astonishment, I was promptly accused of quote-mining and even academic malpractice, because I omitted the following two sentences, which — strange as it may seem —  some evidently view as justifying the above censoring imposition:

The eminent Kant scholar Lewis Beck used to say that anyone who could believe in God could believe in anything. To appeal to an omnipotent deity is to allow that at any moment the regularities of nature may be ruptured, that miracles may happen.

To my mind, instead, these last two sentences are such a sad reflection of bias and ignorance, that their omission is an act of charity to a distinguished professor.

Similar, in fact, to how I also did not refer to the case prof Lewontin also cited, of what we were invited to believe was a “typical fundamentalist”  woman who disbelieved the TV broadcasts of the Moon landing in 1969 on grounds that she could not receive broadcasts from Dallas. By telling contrast, Lewontin somehow omitted to mention that the designer of the Moon rocket, Werner von Braun, was a Bible-believing, Evangelical Christian and Creationist who kept a well-thumbed Gideon Bible in his office.

The second saddest thing in this, is that ever so many now seem to be unaware that:

1: Historically, it was specifically that theistic confidence in an orderly cosmos governed by a wise and orderly Creator that gave modern science much of its starting impetus from about 1200 to 1700. Newton’s remarks in his General Scholium to his famous work, Principia (which introduces his Laws of Motion and Gravitation), are a classic illustration of this historical fact.

[Let me add an excerpt from the GS: “[[t]his most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being . . . It is allowed by all that the Supreme God exists necessarily; and by the same necessity he exists always, and every where. [[i.e. he accepts the cosmological argument to God] . . . We know him only by his most wise and excellent contrivances of things, and final cause [[i.e from his designs] . . . Blind metaphysical necessity, which is certainly the same always and every where, could produce no variety of things. [[i.e. necessity does not produce contingency].  All that diversity of natural things which we find suited to different times and places could arise from nothing but the ideas and will of a Being necessarily existing. [[That is, he implicitly rejects chance, Plato’s third alternative and explicitly infers to the Designer of the Cosmos.]”]

2: As C S Lewis and many other popular as well as technical theological and historical writers point out (cf. here, here and here), in theism, miracles are signs pointing from the ordinary course of the world to the special intervention of God. As such, a world in which miracles happen MUST be a world in which there is an ordinary, predictable day to day course of events — one that is amenable to science, rather than the rationality-sapping chaos Beck and Lewontin imagine.

3: Similarly, one of the major, well-known emphases of theism is our accountability before God as morally governed agents and stewards of our world. Such accountability is only reasonable in a cosmos where choices and actions have reliably predictable consequences. Such a world, again, is one in which science is possible.

4: In light of such facts, it is unsurprising that the leading scientists of the foundational era of modern science  often saw themselves as thinking God’s creative and sustaining thoughts after him.

5: Going beyond that, as Nancy Pearcey rightly pointed out in her 2005 article, “Christianity is a Science-starter, not a Science-stopper”:

Most historians today agree that the main impact Christianity had on the origin and development of modern science was positive.  Far from being a science stopper, it is a science starter . . . .

[T]his should come as no surprise.  After all, modern science arose in one place and one time only: It arose out of medieval Europe, during a period when its intellectual life was thoroughly permeated with a Christian worldview.  Other great cultures, such as the Chinese and the Indian, often developed a higher level of technology and engineering.  But their expertise tended to consist of practical know-how and rules of thumb.  They did not develop what we know as experimental science–testable theories organized into coherent systems.  Science in this sense has appeared only once in history.  As historian Edward Grant writes, “It is indisputable that modern science emerged in the seventeenth century in Western Europe and nowhere else.”[7]. . . .

The church fathers taught that the material world came from the hand of a good Creator, and was thus essentially good.  The result is described by a British philosopher of science, Mary Hesse: “There has never been room in the Hebrew or Christian tradition for the idea that the material world is something to be escaped from, and that work in it is degrading.”  Instead, “Material things are to be used to the glory of God and for the good of man.”[19] Kepler is, once again, a good example.  When he discovered the third law of planetary motion (the orbital period squared is proportional to semi-major axis cubed, or P[superscript 2] = a [superscript 3]), this was for him “an astounding confirmation of a geometer god worthy of worship.  He confessed to being ‘carried away by unutterable rapture at the divine spectacle of heavenly harmony’.”[20] In the biblical worldview, scientific investigation of nature became both a calling and an obligation.  As historian John Hedley Brooke explains, the early scientists “would often argue that God had revealed himself in two books—the book of His words (the Bible) and the book of His works (nature).  As one was under obligation to study the former, so too there was an obligation to study the latter.”[21] The rise of modern science cannot be explained apart from the Christian view of nature as good and worthy of study, which led the early scientists to regard their work as obedience to the cultural mandate to “till the garden”. . . .

Today the majority of historians of science agree with this positive assessment of the impact the Christian worldview had on the rise of science.  Yet even highly educated people remain ignorant of this fact.  Why is that? The answer is that history was founded as a modern discipline by Enlightenment figures such as Voltaire, Gibbon, and Hume who had a very specific agenda: They wanted to discredit Christianity while promoting rationalism.  And they did it by painting the middle ages as the “Dark Ages,” a time of ignorance and superstition.  They crafted a heroic saga in which modern science had to battle fierce opposition and oppression from Church authorities.  Among professional historians, these early accounts are no longer considered reliable sources.  Yet they set the tone for the way history books have been written ever since.  The history of science is often cast as a secular morality tale of enlightenment and progress against the dark forces of religion and superstition. Stark puts it in particularly strong terms: “The ‘Enlightenment’ [was] conceived initially as a propaganda ploy by militant atheists and humanists who attempted to claim credit for the rise of science.”[22] Stark’s comments express a tone of moral outrage that such bad history continues to be perpetuated, even in academic circles.  He himself published an early paper quoting the standards texts, depicting the relationship between Christianity and science as one of constant “warfare.”  He now seems chagrined to learn that, even back then, those stereotypes had already been discarded by professional historians.[23]

Today the warfare image has become a useful tool for politicians and media elites eager to press forward with a secularist agenda . . . [The whole article is well worth the read, here.]

Perhaps, the saddest thing is, even with such correction on the record, many will be so taken in by the myth of the ages-long war of religion attacking science, and by the caricature of the religious as “ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked,” that they will still fail to see that the last two sentences cited from Lewontin above, provide not a justification for materialist censorship on the very definition and methods of science, but instead a further proof of just how ill-instructed, polarising and pernicious such a priori imposition of materialism is.

At the expense of simplicity (and while reserving the right to excerpt from the wider commented quote and using a link back to show the context), I have therefore decided to adjust the commented quotation as follows, to provide a correction on the record:

_____________

>> a key danger of putting materialistic philosophical blinkers on science is that it can easily lead on to the practical establishment of materialistic ideology under false colours of “truth” or the closest practical approximation we can get to it. Where that happens, those who object may then easily find themselves tagged and dismissed as pseudo-scientific (or even fraudulent) opponents of progress, knowledge, right and truth; which can then lead on to very unfair or even unjust treatment at the hands of those who wield power. Therefore, if religious censorship of science (as in part happened to Galileo etc.) was dangerous and unacceptable, materialist censorship must also be equally wrong.

Nor is this danger merely imaginary or a turn-about false accusation, as some would suggest.
For, we may read from Harvard Professor Richard Lewontin’s 1997 New York Review of Books review of the late Cornell Professor Carl Sagan’s The Demon-Haunted World, as follows:
. . . to put a correct view of the universe into people’s heads we must first get an incorrect view out . . .   the problem is to get them to reject irrational and supernatural explanations of the world, the demons that exist only in their imaginations, and to accept a social and intellectual apparatus, Science, as the only begetter of truth [[NB: this is a knowledge claim about knowledge and its possible sources, i.e. it is a claim in philosophy not science; it is thus self-refuting]. . . . To Sagan, as to all but a few other scientists, it is self-evident [[actually, science and its knowledge claims are plainly not immediately and necessarily true on pain of absurdity, to one who understands them; this is another logical error, begging the question , confused for real self-evidence; whereby a claim shows itself not just true but true on pain of patent absurdity if one tries to deny it . . ] that the practices of science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality, and that, in contrast, the demon-haunted world rests on a set of beliefs and behaviors that fail every reasonable test [[i.e. an assertion that tellingly reveals a hostile mindset, not a warranted claim] . . . .
It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes [[another major begging of the question . . . ] to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute [[i.e. here we see the fallacious, indoctrinated, ideological, closed mind . . . ], for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. The eminent Kant scholar Lewis Beck used to say that anyone who could believe in God could believe in anything. To appeal to an omnipotent deity is to allow that at any moment the regularities of nature may be ruptured, that miracles may happen. [Perhaps the second saddest thing is that some actually believe that these last three sentences that express hostility to God and then back it up with a loaded strawman caricature of theism and theists JUSTIFY what has gone on before. As a first correction, accurate history — as opposed to the commonly promoted rationalist myth of the longstanding war of religion against science — documents (cf. here, here and here) that the Judaeo-Christian worldview nurtured and gave crucial impetus to the rise of modern science through its view that God as creator made and sustains an orderly world. Similarly, for miracles — e.g. the resurrection of Jesus — to stand out as signs pointing beyond the ordinary course of the world, there must first be such an ordinary course, one plainly amenable to scientific study. The saddest thing is that many are now so blinded and hostile that, having been corrected, they will STILL think that this justifies the above. But, nothingcan excuse the imposition of a priori materialist censorship on science, which distorts its ability to seek the empirically warranted truth about our world.][[From: “Billions and Billions of Demons,” NYRB, January 9, 1997. Bold emphasis added. (NB: The key part of this quote comes after some fairly unfortunate remarks where Mr Lewontin gives the “typical” example — yes, we can spot a subtext — of an ill-informed woman who dismissed the Moon landings on the grounds that she could not pick up Dallas on her TV, much less the Moon. This is little more than a subtle appeal to the ill-tempered sneer at those who dissent from the evolutionary materialist “consensus,” that they are ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked. For telling counter-instance, Werner von Braun, the designer of the rocket that took NASA to the Moon, was an evangelical Christian and a Creationist.  Similarly, when Lewontin cites eminent Kant scholar Lewis Beck as declaring that anyone who could believe in God could believe in anything, drawing as bottom-line, the inference that [[t]o appeal to an omnipotent deity is to allow that at any moment the regularities of nature may be ruptured, that miracles may happen,” this is a sadly sophomoric distortion. One that fails to understand that, on the Judaeo-Christian theistic view, for miracles to stand out as signs pointing beyond the ordinary, there must first be an ordinary consistently orderly world, one created by the God of order who “sustains all things by his powerful word.” Also, for us to be morally accountable to God — a major theme in theism, the consequences of our actions must be reasonably predictable, i.e. we must live in a consistent, predictably orderly cosmos, one that would be amenable to science. And, historically, it was specifically that theistic confidence in an orderly cosmos governed by a wise and orderly Creator that gave modern science much of its starting impetus from about 1200 to 1700. For instance that is why Newton (a biblical theist), in the General Scholium to his famous work Principia, confidently said “[[t]his most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being . . . It is allowed by all that the Supreme God exists necessarily; and by the same necessity he exists always, and every where. [[i.e. he accepts the cosmological argument to God] . . . We know him only by his most wise and excellent contrivances of things, and final cause [[i.e from his designs] . . . Blind metaphysical necessity, which is certainly the same always and every where, could produce no variety of things. [[i.e. necessity does not produce contingency].  All that diversity of natural things which we find suited to different times and places could arise from nothing but the ideas and will of a Being necessarily existing. [[That is, he implicitly rejects chance, Plato’s third alternative and explicitly infers to the Designer of the Cosmos.]” In such a context of order stamped in at creation and sustained through God’s power, for good reason, God may then act into the world in ways that go beyond the ordinary, i.e. miracles are possible but will inevitably be rare and in a context that points to such a higher purpose. For instance, the chief miracle claim of Christian thought, the resurrection of Jesus with 500+ witnesses is presented in the NT as decisive evidence for the truth of the gospel and authentication of God’s plan of redemption. So, since these contextual remarks have been repeatedly cited by objectors as though they prove the above cite is an out of context distortion that improperly makes Lewontin seem irrational in his claims,  they have to be mentioned, and addressed, as some seem to believe that such a disreputable “context” justifies the assertions and attitudes above!)]

Mr Lewontin and a great many other leading scientists and other influential people in our time clearly think that such evolutionary materialist scientism is the closest thing to the “obvious” truth about our world we have or can get. This has now reached to the point where some want to use adherence to this view as a criterion of being “scientific,” which to such minds is equivalent to “rational.”>>

______________

Well did Aristotle warn us in his The Rhetoric, Bk I Ch 2:

. . . persuasion may come through the hearers, when the speech stirs their emotions. Our judgements when we are pleased and friendly are not the same as when we are pained and hostile . . .

So revealing, then, is the Lewontin quote that it is no surprise that several months later, design thinker Philip Johnson, went on corrective record as follows:

For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter. [Emphasis original] We might more accurately term them “materialists employing science.” And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence. That theory will necessarily be at least roughly like neo-Darwinism, in that it will have to involve some combination of random changes and law-like processes capable of producing complicated organisms that (in Dawkins’ words) “give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose.”
. . . .   The debate about creation and evolution is not deadlocked . . . Biblical literalism is not the issue. The issue is whether materialism and rationality are the same thing. Darwinism is based on an a priori commitment to materialism, not on a philosophically neutral assessment of the evidence. Separate the philosophy from the science, and the proud tower collapses. [Emphasis added.] [The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism, First Things, 77 (Nov. 1997), pp. 22 – 25.]

Let us hope the above will sufficiently set the record straight that we can now clear the atmosphere of the miasma of poisonous caricatures of theism and theists, and address the substantial matter, the recovery of an objective understanding of what science is and how it should work. For, nothing can justify such a priori censorship as Lewontin advocates — and many others also (including very important official bodies), e.g. the US National Academy of Science and the US National Science Teacher’s Association.

In that interest, I suggest that we would profit from reflecting on this proposed restoration of the more historically warranted, and epistemologically justifiable understanding of what science should seek to be:

science, at its best, is the unfettered — but ethically and intellectually responsible — progressive, observational evidence-led pursuit of the truth about our world (i.e. an accurate and reliable description and explanation of it), based on:

a: collecting, recording, indexing, collating and reporting accurate, reliable (and where feasible, repeatable) empirical — real-world, on the ground — observations and measurements,

b: inference to best current — thus, always provisionalabductive explanation of the observed facts,

c: thus producing hypotheses, laws, theories and models, using  logical-mathematical analysis, intuition and creative, rational imagination [[including Einstein’s favourite gedankenexperiment, i.e thought experiments],

d: continual empirical testing through further experiments, observations and measurement; and,

e: uncensored but mutually respectful discussion on the merits of fact, alternative assumptions and logic among the informed. (And, especially in wide-ranging areas that cut across traditional dividing lines between fields of study, or on controversial subjects, “the informed” is not to be confused with the eminent members of the guild of scholars and their publicists or popularisers who dominate a particular field at any given time.)

As a result, science enables us to ever more effectively (albeit provisionally) describe, explain, understand, predict and influence or control objects, phenomena and processes in our world.

Let us trust, then, that cooler and wiser heads will now prevail and in the years ahead, science can and will be rescued from ideological censorship and captivity to Lewontinian-Saganian a priori evolutionary materialism presented in the name of science, through so-called methodological naturalism.

_______________

CONCLUSION (after a day of intense exchanges):

It seems to me that CD captured the essential problem in the false accusation of quote-mining, as early as comment no 3:

Evolutionists in general absolutely hate it when we use the words of authority figures like Crick and Lewontin against them. So when they say “Stop quote mining” what they actually mean is “Stop quoting!”

Bot is very much mistaken when [in comment no 1, cf below] he claims that Kairosfocus was “concealing the proper context of the quote”. The substantial point – that Lewontin demands an a priori, completely exclusive commitment to materialism – is not altered in any way by the lines that were omitted. What the likes of Bot also need to realise about quoting is that, when quoting, you have to start and end somewhere.

Quoting is an exercise in capturing the essence of the substantial point being made: not reproducing the complete work.

After over 100 further comments, much of it on tangential themes, it is quite evident that this summary still stands. END

_______

F/N: Smoking gun, courtesy Expelled. (HT: News.)

Comments
F/N: A wiki clip on causal factors, from their article, Causality: ___________ >> Causality is the relationship between an event (the cause) and a second event (the effect), where the second event is understood as a consequence of the first.[1] Though the causes and effects are typically related to changes or event, candidates include objects, processes, properties, variables, facts, and states of affairs; characterizing the causal relationship can be the subject of much debate . . . . Causes are often distinguished into two types: Necessary and sufficient.[7] A third type of causation, which requires neither necessity nor sufficiency in and of itself, but which contributes to the effect, is called a "contributory cause."[8] Necessary causes: If x is a necessary cause of y, then the presence of y necessarily implies the presence of x. The presence of x, however, does not imply that y will occur. Sufficient causes: If x is a sufficient cause of y, then the presence of x necessarily implies the presence of y. However, another cause z may alternatively cause y. Thus the presence of y does not imply the presence of x. Contributory causes: A cause may be classified as a "contributory cause," if the presumed cause precedes the effect, and altering the cause alters the effect. It does not require that all those subjects which possess the contributory cause experience the effect. It does not require that all those subjects which are free of the contributory cause be free of the effect. In other words, a contributory cause may be neither necessary nor sufficient but it must be contributory . . . . Conditional statements are not statements of causality. An important distinction is that statements of causality require the antecedent to precede or coincide with the consequent in time, whereas conditional statements do not require this temporal order. Confusion commonly arises since many different statements in English may be presented using "If ..., then ..." form (and, arguably, because this form is far more commonly used to make a statement of causality). The two types of statements are distinct, however. >> _______________ I trhink an excellent tutorial can be had with a box of matches. Observe air, match and strike-strip. Strike to see the three factors combine to yield a flame, necessary and sufficient factors. With a match burning, and with half burned already tilt the burned part up, and watch the flame gutter down and out as it tries to burn what is no longer fuel. That underscores necessary cause. Now, think: was the flame always there? No, it began, and there were things that had to either precede or coincide in time for a flame to exist. there were necessary factors that if any one was taken out the flame would no longer exist or would not start. There was a sufficient cluster of factors that once present will lead to a fire. Where fires could start by material or intelligent factors, too. As fire departments and police departments know, intelligently designed fires leave characteristic traces reflecting combination of parts to a purpose, based on choice and implementation thereof. And so on. Now, apply to a big bang, fine tuned world suitable for C-chemistry cell based life that is intelligent. One with life replete with FSCI. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
June 16, 2011
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If there is a cause that produced a certain effect, but science lacks the means to identify the cause, then you are unwarranted to say that there even is a cause. It’s more accurate to simply state that the effect is causeless.
A causeless effect? Is that like a round square, or like a blind man that cannot see?Mung
June 16, 2011
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LYO: Pardon, but science is subject to logic, including in particular the logic of cause and effect. For instance, if something -- e.g. a fire -- begins, there are circumstances under which is is possible for it not to be, i.e. there are necessary causal factors that must be on for it to be, e.g. heat, fuel and oxidiser. So, from effect that begins we infer cause. Anything that begins -- such as our observed cosmos and contents -- is not causeless. That includes quantum effects, such as decay of a neutron outside a nucleus: the neutron must exist and be outside a nucleus, and it will decay following a statistical law. Material causes, some necessary in their effects, some statistical. The notion of causeless phenomena in our observed cosmos is nonsensical, pardon directness, but that is the force of the relevant logic of cause. Mung's point is that we study cause-effect bonds, and are not labelling such as supernatural or natural. Which is being primarily used for rhetorical advantage and in order to effect some pretty damaging censorship, as has been highlighted through the Lewontin quote and three others closely tied to it. Two from key bodies responsible for science and science eduction in the leading scientific country in the world. In fact, scientifically studied causes are more reasonably (and with a very long pedigree indeed) studied as material and intelligent causes,the former being those that are dominated by chance and/or mechanical necessity. Intelligent causes or art, are a part and parcel of scientific investigations, indeed they are a key part of experiment design where one artificially manipulates a situation to identify links between what is varied and what results. This is especially evident in the design that focusses on blocks, treatments and controls, where variation is assigned to chance and to treatment based on statistical techniques commonly known as ANOVA. What you are doing -- despite ample opportunity to get this right, over months at least [cf the UD weak argument correctives] -- is to inject a slander-laced, loaded strawman caricature, in a context where that sort of rhetorical tactic by advocates of evolutionary materialism is already an issue. Remember, this thread is a response to false accusation of quote-mining. So, kindly beware of enabling behaviour. Design thought does not analyse by natural vs supernatural causes but by identifying characteristic signs of material causes vs intelligent ones, such as:
1: low contingency manifest in lawlike regularities (a dropped heavy object falls at g acceleration) 2: High contingency that is statistically distributed and attributable to chance (if the object is a die, its value on tumbling will follow a distribution that is statistical) 3: High contingency attributable to purposeful choice, I.E. DESIGN (e.g. a tray of 200 dice all set to read 1, or to follow a code expressing say the first few sentences of this post) 4: Cases 1 and 2 are material or unintelligent causes,a nd produce characteristic patterns often studied in scientific contexts. 5: Case 3 is ALSO studied in scientific contexts, such as ANOVA, or information theory, where the very concept of a contrast between signal and noise is a marker of the difference between material and intelligent cause, with the latter showing itself in features reflecting complex organisation of matter and energy towards a goal, and thus purpose. 6: In this context, certain characteristic signs of design may be identified and studied as potentially highly empirically reliable and measurable markers of design. (Functionally specific complex information such as is in computer code or linguistic code is a capital example, as would be the sort of wiring diagram organisation that can be reduced to a string of structured yes/no questions and represented as a string data structure.)
So, I am going to formally ask you to attend to what design thinkers actually do, instead of the caricatures cast on us by those who have a demonstrable agenda of demonisation and censorship. I know this can be hard to do, as if you believe the point being asserted in a circular argument, you can ever so easily run happily around the question-begging materialist loop of thinking that design thinkers are trying to improperly inject the supernatural into science. Science is defined by studying only causes and effects that are natural, and so design is by definition unscientific. It is also a sneak attack creationism in a cheap lab coat, that is trying to force on us a right wing theocracy with the inquisition all over again just as with Galileo. Etc etc etc. All of the above is demonstrably false, slanderous and abusive [cf here too], as it is an enabler of real oppression by the new a priori materialist magisterium. For instance, science, historically and philosophically -- and the definition of science is an exercise on these two disciplines, it is not an exercise within science, soon enough will expose the force fitting of a materialistic straight jacket as censorship in the teeth of a lot of history and sound thought on what scientific knowledge is. The sort of declarations by Lewontin, Coyne, The US NAS and the US NSTA show just who is really pushing a politically correct materialistic ideological straightjacket on us. And the attempt to justify this by caricaturing theism and theists is an example of demonising ridicule and denigration by saying what is provably and easily seen as utterly false to history and to what theism actually holds. Probably the best way to blow this agenda up is to contrast a more sensible and historically well warranted definition of what science should instead try to be. So let me clip the end of the original post:
science, at its best, is the unfettered — but ethically and intellectually responsible — progressive, observational evidence-led pursuit of the truth about our world (i.e. an accurate and reliable description and explanation of it), based on: a: collecting, recording, indexing, collating and reporting accurate, reliable (and where feasible, repeatable) empirical — real-world, on the ground — observations and measurements, b: inference to best current — thus, always provisional — abductive explanation of the observed facts, c: thus producing hypotheses, laws, theories and models, using logical-mathematical analysis, intuition and creative, rational imagination [[including Einstein's favourite gedankenexperiment, i.e thought experiments], d: continual empirical testing through further experiments, observations and measurement; and, e: uncensored but mutually respectful discussion on the merits of fact, alternative assumptions and logic among the informed. (And, especially in wide-ranging areas that cut across traditional dividing lines between fields of study, or on controversial subjects, “the informed” is not to be confused with the eminent members of the guild of scholars and their publicists or popularisers who dominate a particular field at any given time.) As a result, science enables us to ever more effectively (albeit provisionally) describe, explain, understand, predict and influence or control objects, phenomena and processes in our world.
Now, can we start over, by first getting facts straight, LYO? GEM of TKIkairosfocus
June 16, 2011
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Mung, you state..
But if there is a cause that has a discernable effect, it can be studied by science, regardless of how you want to label the cause. In fact, science cannot tell us whether the cause of that discernable effect is natural or supernatural. It lacks the means to do so.
If there is a cause that produced a certain effect, but science lacks the means to identify the cause, then you are unwarranted to say that there even is a cause. It's more accurate to simply state that the effect is causeless.lastyearon
June 16, 2011
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ME: Therefore, as long as there is a discernable effect science is free to continue it’s investigations. Elizabeth: Well, yes. So you are now reduced to saying that science cannot study non-discernable effects, which is not at all where you started. That's also a statement that few here, if any, would disagree with. But if there is a cause that has a discernable effect, it can be studied by science, regardless of how you want to label the cause. In fact, science cannot tell us whether the cause of that discernable effect is natural or supernatural. It lacks the means to do so. So you're left with no argument at all.Mung
June 16, 2011
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Dr Liddle: Where have I said that the design inference is trying to infer to the supernatural? Have I not consistently corrected this strawman distortion, by pointing out how since Plato, the contrast that is relevant is nature vs art on signs of design? Is it not the -- massively evident -- case that the "natural vs supernatural" strawman substitution consistently comes from those who would shut down design theory, and depends for rhetorical and institutional success on demonising and blocking hearing out the other side of the story? This can be backed up in case after case. Indeed, look at what Lewontin said again with fresh eyes -- is this not just what is going on? It is true that in the special circumstance of cosmic origins, the characteristics of the designer in question make a designer beyond the cosmos a reasonable conclusion, but the scientific inference is not to the supernatural but to the causal factor of design. Similarly, the censorship and career busting are quite blatant, so please do not indulge in enabling behaviour by suggesting that it is not real. Kindly, look back at the original post, and onward to the NAS and NSTA statements. Notice how a priori materialism -- in the face of otherwise credible alternatives -- and censorship are imposed though a strawman distortion of the inference from empirical signs to design as cause, into a snidely projected attempted inference to the supernatural? Notice, how the inference to design on signs is then slandered as an irrational inference to the supernatural? Notice further that the actual history of the origins of science is distorted, and the actual implications of a theistic view are distorted, as well as the rationality of theists is slandered. When I see this sort of thing, standing unopposed, I see where, once the public has been put into a state of crisis-induced hysteria, such slanders can easily lead to horrendous abuses. Please, don't dismiss this as exaggeration or as something that is unimaginable "here" among us decent civilised people; I have -- at the risk of my life and limb -- personally seen this on the small scale, and have seen the history of what happened across the past century. Indeed,the recent Gaskell case shows how this could ever so easily get out of hand. Denial of what is happening till it is too late, is one of the key enablers that the vicious ideologue counts on to get his way. Ask the ghosts of 100+ million victims over the past 100 years. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
June 16, 2011
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kf: I am not at all disputing the case that we can detect design. We can and do. It's detecting the supernatural that I am talking about. Science can't do that. I hoped I had made that clear; if not, I hope it is clear now. Apologies for the misunderstanding.Elizabeth Liddle
June 16, 2011
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Dr Liddle: Pardon, but there is a misrepresentation here. The inference from signs of design to design is an empirical inference on observations, not an appeal to ignorance. This is not a god of the gaps argument, but an inference from signs to art as the most reasonable cause. We do understand that designers exist and so are possible, and that they leave characteristic traces, e.g. the text in this blog thread as an instance of functionally specific complex organisation in the form of digital text in a language. Please, correct this caricatured projection. In the case of the FSCO of the cosmos, the inference is not "we do not understand so God must have done it, but instead it is from something we do understand very well indeed: designers routinely set up complex entities that to function depend on a multitude of well-matched parts or features. The text in this post is an example, the computer you are reading this on is another, and the car you drove this morning is a third. As to the absurdity of an actual, sequentially delivered infinite succession, the basic problems are closely tied to Hilbert's famous hotel. But the most simple challenge is this: how can you traverse an infinity step by finite step? In short, we are here, but that means that we have come to be here, step by causal step. An infinity of discrete elements like that can only be delivered all at once as a set, for one cannot complete the traverse one step at a time, to arrive at a transfinite number of steps. And if the actual number of steps so far is finite, we are looking straight back at a beginning. For one further instance, the oscillating expanding then contracting and re-expanding cosmos model, runs into the problem of ever-increasing entropy. If of infinite age, it would be in heat death. So, we can see that a far better explanation is that the observations that point to a definite beginning are not misleading us, so it is reasonable to include the possibility of a real beginning to the cosmos in our inference to best of candidate explanations. Mix in the fine tuning again, and you are looking at intelligent design of a cosmos. (And, yes there are other multiverse speculations -- they are not observationally anchored and so strictly are philosophy not science BTW -- but such have to then account for the setting up of the cosmos baking bread factory such that it will sample the neighbourhood of this operating point sufficiently finely that we are not in effect counting on a blind materialistic miracle. This is simply fine tuning postponed one level. Going further, some have suggested that there are super laws that force the laws and parameters we see to the values they hold. Again, that simply puts the finteuning up one level: a law programmed to create a habitable cosmos. What is happening, in short, is that in the haste to bend over backwards to accommodate the atheists, we are giving them the keys of censorship, which [on plain track record as Lewontin documents] they will not hesitate to use. We must not allow such censorship to pass unchallenged. An empirically anchored inference to best explanation is fatally compromised if live option candidates are excluded for ideological reasons. And if we allow science to be compromised like that, its credibility -- deservedly -- will be zero. (The climate gate events have already done some serious damage . . . and not least because it was exposed that Alinskyite tactics were being used to slanderously smear those who have serious questions.) So, we must stop the madness before it causes science to self-destruct. If we want our civilisation to thrive. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
June 16, 2011
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Eugene S: I could agree with much of this. I guess one of the reasons this conversation is stalling, is that I'm not sure what, specifically, is meant by "censorship". I don't myself think that science is in a position to answer God questions, and so I get a bit annoyed when scientists say that God has been disproven, or at any rate imply it. However science IS equipped to find non-God explanations for phenomena, and I don't see how this amounts to "censorship". But I guess I'd like to see a clear ferinstance of an investigation that scientists should do, but are prevented from doing because of the alleged "censorship". This is neither a rhetorical nor a sarcastic question - I really want to know what you have in mind.Elizabeth Liddle
June 16, 2011
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Mung:
A causeless effect is logically incoherent. Therefore, as long as there is a discernable effect science is free to continue it’s investigations.
Well, yes. I have to say, from here, this looks like an own goal :)Elizabeth Liddle
June 16, 2011
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,,,Elizabeth, the primary job of science is to relentlessly pursue the truth, not propagate lies by going down endless blind alleys!!! (Evolution of the Gaps, Multiverse of the gap),,, refusing to acknowledge the overwhelming truth that God created the universe and all life in it is not helpful to science in the least no matter what rose colored glasses you try to look at the lie with. Furthermore, as far as this lie, of a Godless creation, has filtered down and effected society, it has been, and continues to be, downright destructive. Body count of atheists societies on their OWN POPULATIONS!!! Chairman MAO: Genocide Master “…Many scholars and commentators have referenced my total of 174,000,000 for the democide (genocide and mass murder) of the last century. I’m now trying to get word out that I’ve had to make a major revision in my total due to two books. I’m now convinced that that Stalin exceeded Hitler in monstrous evil, and Mao beat out Stalin….” http://wadias.in/site/arzan/blog/chairman-mao-genocide-master/ How Darwin's Theory Changed the World Rejection of Judeo-Christian values Excerpt: Weikart explains how accepting Darwinist dogma shifted society’s thinking on human life: “Before Darwinism burst onto the scene in the mid-nineteenth century, the idea of the sanctity of human life was dominant in European thought and law (though, as with all ethical principles, not always followed in practice). Judeo-Christian ethics proscribed the killing of innocent human life, and the Christian churches explicitly forbade murder, infanticide, abortion, and even suicide. “The sanctity of human life became enshrined in classical liberal human rights ideology as ‘the right to life,’ which according to John Locke and the United States Declaration of Independence, was one of the supreme rights of every individual” (p. 75). Only in the late nineteenth and especially the early twentieth century did significant debate erupt over issues relating to the sanctity of human life, especially infanticide, euthanasia, abortion, and suicide. It was no mere coincidence that these contentious issues emerged at the same time that Darwinism was gaining in influence. Darwinism played an important role in this debate, for it altered many people’s conceptions of the importance and value of human life, as well as the significance of death” (ibid.). http://www.gnmagazine.org/issues/gn85/darwin-theory-changed-world.htm the body count from abortion is over 50 million now in America since it was legalized in 1973: Born Alive – Abortion Survivor Gianna Jessen http://www.faithandfacts.com/abortion/born-alive-abortion-survivor-gianna-jessen/ ------------ From Darwin To Hitler - Richard Weikart - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_5EwYpLD6A etc.. etc..bornagain77
June 16, 2011
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Science is about investigating causes, therefore a causeless cause must end of investigation.
Science is about investigating effects. A causeless effect is logically incoherent. Therefore, as long as there is a discernable effect science is free to continue it's investigations.Mung
June 16, 2011
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Elizabeth, I am afraid, we view the same thing from two different points. I agree that science should always remain open to possibilities. But materialist censorship for one is shutting possibilities down. All one asks for is fairness. I am as convinced as you are that science necessarily is close to reaching its limits when dealing with the origins. However, even here we still can infer important information as regards possible origins while legitimately staying within the borders of science. Pointers to the supernatural are also information in their own right. And this information may be more important than we think. For "brilliant" militant atheistic examples, I can refer you to Richard Dawkins. His reasoning is full of religious (atheistic) bias. Examples of such belligerence are truly in abundance. BTW, I personally do not see any contradiction between science and religion and for me "therefore God" is not a stopper but a further motivation :) I think what really stops science is not references to the divine (indeed, how can they?) but materialisting attempts to deprive it of any meaning and motivation. Why bother if we are all here today and gone tomorrow? Materialism reduces science to a means of making life more comfortable. What else can give a lasting impetus to science? Altruism? Curiosity? No foundational metaphisics means the death of science in the long run. And that is a big stopper.Eugene S
June 16, 2011
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Are you saying that because infinite regress is impossible, a prime causeless cause (namely, God) can be inferred?
Sigh.Mung
June 16, 2011
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But Eugene S - to stop, and say "well we can't explain this, therefore God" IS narrowing down the space of possibilities, whereas saying "well, we can't explain this, therefore we need to think a bit harder, come up with a new testable hypothesis and get some new data" is expanding the space of possibilities. This is the part I don't get - in what way is science supposed to be "narrowing" or "censoring" investigation by precluding the answer "God"? Support your answer with examples, as the good old exam script goes :) It may seem superficially like censorship, but as I see it, it is precisely by leaving the door constantly open to further explanation that we widen the search space; but doing so means we don't ever say "God, therefore, stop here". The God answer is the investigation stopper, not science! Which is not to say that scientists should rule out God, merely that to do so would mean stopping doing science. Also I think it's bad theology (God of the Gaps) :)Elizabeth Liddle
June 16, 2011
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Joseph: how would you describe the supernatural, if not as a "causeless cause"?Elizabeth Liddle
June 16, 2011
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All, I'd like to support the clear case of kairosfocus, tsmith and others. In talking about science, I think it is fair to assume that science is in fact the so called scientific method of iterative knowledge acquisition based on reasoning about observations. If we keep this definition in mind, it should be clear that it is not logical to a priori narrow down the space of possibilities (including the possibility of a supernatural origin of life to the extent that we can observe and measure scientifically). On what grounds should this narrowing down be authorised? So science includes observation (input), logic (the internal "machinery") and knowledge (the output) in the form of generalisations and predictions about future observations. True, science cannot explain everything (I guess this was really meant when somebody mentioned "the causeless cause"). There should be no disagreement here about the fact that the scientific method itself is incomplete. However it is powerful enough to make some important inferences as regards the possibility of design. The only thing that we as scientists should make sure is that we stay objective. The scientific method is a product of the Christian civilization par excellance. Not to recognise that would be a big mistake.Eugene S
June 16, 2011
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According to Richard Dawkins you are wrong. See comment 98 Also what is this "causeless cause" nonsense? Who sez a supernatural cause is a causeless cause?Joseph
June 16, 2011
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No-one, Joseph - it's just a logical statement! Let me rephrase: Science is about investigating causes, therefore a causeless cause must end of investigation. Does that make more sense? As for your second point: I am actually perfectly happy with the theological position that God is what accounts for there being anything at all. But that's not verifiable or falsifiable by science - not because science censors it but because it's outside its methodological range.Elizabeth Liddle
June 16, 2011
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EL:
Did not intend to, but I could have been clearer: a supernatural cause is a causeless cause. It’s the end of the line for investigation
Who are you to make such a declaration? As for infinite regress well natural processes only exist in nature and therefor cannot account for its origin, which science says it had.Joseph
June 16, 2011
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OK, I agree with you up to your point 4. Thereafter: Are you saying that because infinite regress is impossible, a prime causeless cause (namely, God) can be inferred?Elizabeth Liddle
June 16, 2011
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Dr Liddle: Re: Nothing in scientific methodology equips us to detect that we’ve come to the end of the turtles. Which is my point: it’s not that science censors any suggestion that “This is the last turtle” – it’s actually the opposite – that science refuses to censor any investigation into the possibility that this is NOT the last turtle. 1 --> Scientific methods and results are inherently inductive and/or abductive. 2 --> Consequently, scientific investigations are inherently not about proofs beyond further discussion or dispute. 3 --> Even Mathematics, post Godel, is unable to guarantee the stability of sets of axioms against incoherence and/or incompleteness. 4 --> So, inherently, any scientific conclusion is in principle provisional and not an end to discussions. 5 --> Howbeit, as you hav e unfortunately failed to address again, the cumulative force of evidence in hand is that we live in an observed cosmos that had a beginning, commonly dated these days at 13.7 BYA. 6 --> the date is of no great moment, the key implication is that that which begins is contingent, i.e. it has a cause. In particular, it is dependent on one or more causally necessary external factors that have to be "on" for there to be a cosmos like ours. [Like, if one or more of heat, fuel and oxidiser are missing, no fire is possible, and when brought together a fire can and does begin.] 7 --> By contrast, it is logically possible for beings to exist that have no such external causal dependency. Such beings are ontologically necessary: they have no beginning, they can have no end. 8 --> The explanatory options for our cosmos are an infinite, successive chain of antecedents which are causally dependent, or a root cause that is ontologically necessary. 9 --> The former runs into the Hilbert Hotel type absurdities of an actual infinite succession of finite steps -- notice how in mathematics, we deliver infinities all at once, or else suggest them as a continuation forever? -- and so the latter is the only plausible explanation. 10 --> In addition, the observed cosmos is credibly fine-tuned in many ways that set it at an operating point that facilitates C-chemistry, cell based life. 11 --> This functionally specific, complex organisation strongly points to intelligent design, with deep knowledge and enormous power also implicated. this is a root cause, but that is not a science stopper, no more than many limiting conclusions in physics and mathematics are science stoppers: e.g. that energy is conserved or entropy tends strongly to rise are not stopping scientific investigations to test them, or to use them. 12 --> So, the question now is, whether scientific investigations are based on the logic of inference to best explanation and/or logic more broadly. 13 --> Patently so, so the bare assertion that "[n]othing in scientific methodology equips us to detect that we’ve come to the end of the turtles" is plainly wrong. 14 --> The application of logic in an empirical context can and does here point to a beginning, and to a necessary being as the root of that beginning, even through the various multiverse speculations. 15 --> And, in former days, when the observed cosmos was not evidently contingent, the observed cosmos was thought to be the required ontologically necessary beginningless being. Indeed, that was a major motivation for resistance to the findings and analysis from the 1920's that pointed to such a beginning. 16 --> As long as the state of the art was consistent with a MATERIAL necessary being, something like the steady state theory was quite acceptable, and the logic of ontological necessity as the root of contingent being, was quite acceptable. 17 --> The sudden demand that science is incapable of credibly finding a real beginning is a very recent development, one driven by the fact of finding a credible and fine tuned beginning to our cosmos. 18 --> Instead, I must draw attention to a facet of the OP that has simply been passed over in a strategic silence: namely, that for its credibility and integrity, science has to be based on seeking -- however open-endedly -- empirically based, TRUE explanations about our world. 19 --> Once that is so, and once it is a significant possibility that there is a real beginning to our cosmos and a real root in an ontologically necessary being that could and may well have set up an observed cosmos fine tuned for C chemistry cell based life [a point that is heavily supported by observation], science is in no proper position to take sides and censor itself that there must be turtles all the way down. 20 --> What is really happening here, then, is that this is a disguised form of Lewontin's blatant and utterly indefensible a priori materialistic censorship that cuts out lines of thought that may lead to an unwelcome candidate for the begin-ner of the observed cosmos. ____________ Plainly, it is high time for such censorship to cease, and it is necessary for that, that it be exposed. And so, it is entirely proper to publicise Lewontin's shocking statement, and to point out that this is indeed amply supported by other declarations, including by august bodies that officially speak for science. In that context, it is equally plain that the further remarks in attempted justification, that instesad misrepresent and deride thests and theism, are an additional outrage, not a reasonable defense. the remarks do not change the meaning of the shocking declaration of a priori materialistic ideological question-begging, closed mindedness and censorship. thus, the accusation of "quote-mining" is really an objection -- as CD said in 3 above -- to publicising what the new magisterium in the holy lab coat would rather have concealed. the false accusation should be withdrawn and apologised for. Those who continue to insist on it in the face of cogent correction, thereby expose themselves as enablers of materialist censorship, misrepresentation of those who dare to differ, and slander. On track record, however, I am not holding my breath. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
June 16, 2011
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Matteo: well, yes, but that doesn't mean that science is "about never ever reaching the end of the line". Sciences is about figuring out what the next "turtle" is. Nothing in scientific methodology equips us to detect that we've come to the end of the turtles. Which is my point: it's not that science censors any suggestion that "This is the last turtle" - it's actually the opposite - that science refuses to censor any investigation into the possibility that this is NOT the last turtle. I don't think Lewontin's words give this impression, and I personally think they were ill-chosen. I think mine are better! But I think they boil down to the same thing. If not, he's wrong and I'm right :)Elizabeth Liddle
June 16, 2011
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Did not intend to, but I could have been clearer: a supernatural cause is a causeless cause. It’s the end of the line for investigation.
And if science is about anything, then, surely it would be about never ever reaching the end of the line for investigation. So, you see, science really is not about giving explanations, after all. For all causes have causes and it's turtles all the way down.Matteo
June 15, 2011
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PS: It seems to me that CD captured the essential problem in the false accusation of quote-mining, as long ago as comment no 3:
Evolutionists in general absolutely hate it when we use the words of authority figures like Crick and Lewontin against them. So when they say “Stop quote mining” what they actually mean is “Stop quoting!” Bot is very much mistaken when he claims that Kairosfocus was “concealing the proper context of the quote”. The substantial point – that Lewontin demands an a priori, completely exclusive commitment to materialism – is not altered in any way by the lines that were omitted. What the likes of Bot also need to realise about quoting is that, when quoting, you have to start and end somewhere. Quoting is an exercise in capturing the essence of the substantial point being made: not reproducing the complete work.
After over 100 further comments, much of it on tangential themes, it is quite evident that this summary still stands.kairosfocus
June 15, 2011
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Mung: It is worse than that, in fact the very scientists themselves exemplify something necessary for the practice of science that -- on pain of absurdity -- cannot reduce to a chain of blind cause and effect tracing to chance and/or necessity. NAMELY, REASONED THOUGHT. If all reduces to chance and necessity via blind forces of physical change, thought, logic and reason are also discredited, and with them, science. I discussed this above in my call for a response on the merits, point by point, as already linked, but of course it was ignored in the haste to score dubious debate points against design thought. This point is not a new idea, we may see it already in Haldane eighty years ago:
"It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms." [["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209. (Highlight and emphases added.)]
About fifteen years ago, the issue resurfaced in the work of Crick, in his The Astonishing Hypothesis, where he declared:
. . . that "You", your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behaviour of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules. As Lewis Carroll's Alice might have phrased: "You're nothing but a pack of neurons." This hypothesis is so alien to the ideas of most people today that it can truly be called astonishing.
H'mm, does this hold for your SCIENTIFIC thinking, analysis etc, too? In which case, would not such things necessarily reduce to blind forces of chance and/or necessity, utterly irrelevant to truth, reason, or rigour etc? Indeed, that is exactly what design thinker Philip Johnson used as the basis of his retort. As I went on to summarise in the linked:
Philip Johnson has replied that Sir Francis should have therefore been willing to preface his works thusly: "I, Francis Crick, my opinions and my science, and even the thoughts expressed in this book, consist of nothing more than the behavior of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules." Johnson then acidly commented: “[[t]he plausibility of materialistic determinism requires that an implicit exception be made for the theorist.” [[Reason in the Balance, 1995.]
Plainly, we trust science because it is based on accuracy of fact, and soundness or cogency of reasoning. But if the above a priori materialism holds, science insofar as it depends on reason is reduced to the absurdity of Crick. This serves as a clue that should warn us that something is deeply amiss in a priori ideological materialism, as it is patently self-referentially absurd. Mental processes like reasoning, and moral constraints like integrity are critical if science is to succeed, and so we see that science is absurd if materialism is true. But the said science is held to be the REASONABLE grounds for materialism, though in fact the a priori materialism imposed in censorship as we have seen turns this into a vicious circle in logic. A priori materialism is written into the radical re-definition of science, and scientific results based on such censorship are then turned around and cited as though they now prove the claim. Absurd. Again. Instead, we need to recognise that the scientific, observational evidence points to a cosmos that credibly had a beginning, and so is contingent. In turn that points on logic to a begin-ner that at root must be without external causal dependence, i.e has no beginning and will have no end as it does not depend on an external factor for its existence. That underlying necessary being is eternal in a very literal sense. And since we are dealing with the origin of the material, natural universe, the necessary being at its root is beyond that order of nature, as was pointed out previously but -- as is now usual -- ignored b the ever so triumphalistic adherents of the vicious circle of materialist thought as just exposed. In short, in a very literal sense, it is super-natural. Beyond nature. The fine-tuning of our observed cosmos for C-chemistry, cell based intelligent life then points -- on inference to best explanation -- to properties of that necessary being: powerful and intelligent enough to design and effect a cosmos. Such a necessary being sounds a lot like the God of theism. Yes. All that means is that theism is not at all the absurdly silly believe anythong in a demonic chaos irrationality in the mockingly dismissive words Lewontin so unfortunately resorted to. And in addition, the concept of a God of order making an orderly and organised cosmos is immediately deeply consistent with a cosmos that has in it lawlike regularities to the point where even random processes are generally lawlike up to some distribution or other. Going back to the issue in the OP, it is plain that the imposition of a priori materialism on science is absurd and leads to self-destructive incoherence. It cannot be justified. The claimed attempt at justification turns into slander, which is more dangerous than people who lap it up apparently recognise. Just this evening, on the radio, I was catching in the background the story of a pastor in the Soviet Union who spent 18 years in gaol in the gulags, on successive terms based on patently absurd false accusations of sedition and the like. But, in a closed minded, ideologically driven amoral militantly atheistical culture like that, the most absurd suspicions and accusations could be cast and entertained, if they served the agendas of the powerful and their toadies and henchmen. So, an obviously innocent man was repeatedly put before kangaroo courts and sentenced to to or five more years, in which he would be subjected to life threatening abuses, which nearly killed him. Indeed, we should note the first sign and proof of his sedition: he had at one point five Bibles in his possession. Proof of fomenting rebellion against the state! Five years. And, again and again, he would be sent back to the gulag for equally absurd charges. Now, please, look at the accusation against me above, of quote-mining, and the "evidence" trotted out in "proof." Look for any real substantiation of what is now doubtless being drumbeat repeated elsewhere as a proof of my guilt, guilt by accusation. Ask yourself where this sort of amoral, benumbed conscience absurdity would end up if unchecked. And, for God's sake, have the decency to be ashamed. Ashamed enough to stop, apologise and desist from such madness that points only one way, to the ruin of our civilisation if it is unchecked. We have been warned. (As, once I warned a country looking down the throat of an active volcano and busily trying to think that things could not be so bad as the "neurotics" "obsessed" with "visions of destruction" were making out. With the very capital city buried under up to 40 ft of ash, 15+ years later, many of those same people are now busily trying to pretend they were not warned, or by whom.) Good evening GEM of TKIkairosfocus
June 15, 2011
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Elizabeth Liddle:
Science does not have the methodology to investigate the Divine, right? So what methodology would you suggest for such a task?
Christianity has long held that God is a person. How would you go about "investigating" another person?Mung
June 15, 2011
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Driver @124:
Where appropriate, science weaves effects and causes into an explanatory framework.
Which is not the same as asserting that every effect must also be a cause or science absolutely breaks down.Mung
June 15, 2011
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ID does not conclude that the designer is supernatural. (The inferred designer could be human in some cases.) Nonetheless, it is rejected on the pretense that a designer must be supernatural.ScottAndrews
June 15, 2011
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Science does not have the methodology to investigate the Divine, right? If you agree that science as science is incapable of having any commentary on the divine - of either detecting the presence or lack of God, "the supernatural", designers*, etc in nature - you are taking a stance which radically undermines Lewontin's position. You're welcome to it, just realize what the cost is. So what methodology would you suggest for such a task? Reason? Philosophy? Metaphysics? Common human experience? And keep in mind, these things can be combined with findings from science. Science as science may have zero comment on whether or not evolution is teleological. Science viewed through this or that philosophical, metaphysical or reasonable lens may well do so (though at that point it's not science, it's a hybrid.) (* What's often forgotten is that there's nothing in ID that demands designers be 'supernatural' - and if designers, period, are beyond science's purview, then quite a large chunk of what would popularly be called 'natural' is ruled out as well. Methodological naturalism is an utter misnomer.)nullasalus
June 15, 2011
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