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How ID sheds light on the classic free will dilemma

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The standard argument against free will is that it is incoherent.  It claims that a free agent must either be determined or non-determined.  If the free agent is determined, then it cannot be responsible for its choices.  On the other hand, if it is non-determined, then its choices are random and uncontrolled.  Neither case preserves the notion of responsibility that proponents of free will wish to maintain.  Thus, since there is no sensible way to define free will, it is incoherent. [1]

Note that this is not really an argument against free will, but merely an argument that we cannot talk about free will.  So, if someone were to produce another way of talking about free will the argument is satisfied.

Does ID help us in this case?  It appears so.  If we relabel “determinism” and “non-determinism” as “necessity” and “chance”, ID shows us that there is a third way we might talk about free will.

In the universe of ID there are more causal agents than the duo of necessity and chance.  There is also intelligent causality.  Dr. Dembski demonstrates this through his notion of the explanatory filter.  While the tractability of the explanatory filter may be up for debate, it is clear that the filter is a coherent concept.  The very fact that there is debate over whether it can be applied in a tractable manner means the filter is well defined enough to be debated.

The explanatory filter consists of a three stage process to detect design in an event.  First, necessity must be eliminated as a causal explanation.  This means the event cannot have been the precisely determined outcome of a prior state.  Second, chance must be eliminated.  As such, the event must be very unlikely to have occurred, such that it isn’t possible to have queried half or more of the event space with the number of queries available.

At this point, it may appear we’ve arrived at our needed third way, and quite easily at that.  We merely must deny that an event is caused by chance or necessity.  However, things are not so simple.  The problem is that these criteria do not specify an event.  If an event does meet these criteria, then the unfortunate implication is so does every other event in the event space.  In the end the criteria become a distinction without a difference, and we are thrust right back into the original dilemma.  Removing chance and necessity merely gives us improbability (P < 0.5), also called “complexity” in ID parlance.

What we need is a third criteria, called specificity.  This criteria can be thought of as a sort of compression, it describes the event in simpler terms.  One example is a STOP sign.  The basic material of the sign is a set of particles in a configuration.  To describe the sign in terms of the configuration is a very arduous and lengthy task, essentially a list of each particle’s type and position.  However, we can describe the sign in a much simpler manner by providing a computer, which knows how to compose particles into a sign according to a pattern language, with the instructions to write the word STOP on a sign.

According to a concept called Kolmogrov Complexity [2], such machines and instructions form a compression of the event, and thus specify a subset of the event space in an objective manner.  This solves the previous problem where no events were specified.  Now, only a small set of events are specified.  While KC is not a necessary component of Dr. Dembski’s explanatory filter, it can be considered a sufficient criteria for specificity.

With this third criteria of specificity, we now have a distinction that makes a difference.  Namely, it shows we still have something even after removing chance and necessity: we have complex specified information (CSI).  CSI has two properties that make it useful for the free will debate.  First, it is a definition of an event that is neither caused by necessity or chance.  As such, it is not susceptible to the original dilemma.  Furthermore, it provides a subtle and helpful distinction for the argument.  CSI does not avoid the distinction between determinism and non-determinism.  It still falls within the non-determinism branch.  However, CSI shows that randomness is not an exhaustive description of non-determinism.  Instead, the non-determinism branch further splits into a randomness branch and a CSI branch.

The second advantage of CSI is that it is a coherent concept defined with mathematical precision.  And, with a coherently definition, the original argument vanishes.  As pointed out in the beginning of the article, the classic argument against free will is not an argument against something.  It is merely an argument that we cannot talk about something because we do not possess sufficient language.  Properly understood, the classical argument is more of a question, asking what is the correct terminology.  But, with the advent of CSI we now have at least one answer to the classical question about free will.

So, how can we coherently talk about a responsible free will if we can only say it is either determined and necessary, or non-determined and potentially random?  One precise answer is that CSI describes an entity that is both non-determined while at the same time non-random.

——————-

[1] A rundown of many different forms of this argument is located here:http://www.informationphilosopher.com/freedom/standard_argument.html

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolmogorov_complexity

Comments
Mung,
Most communication I’m aware of is not purely mechanical.
So what. You were taking about transcription and arguing that because transcription is mechanical DNA cannot communicate anything. Your objections, as I’ve shown, is specious.
First, that isn't an accurate phrasing of my objection; you've put the cart before the horse above. Second, you haven't demonstrated that my objection is specious.
So now what is your objection?
I repeat: My objection all along has been the equivocation of the casual use of the term "code" for DNA with computer code. DNA is not analogous to computer code as I, Cipertext, and now Mike1962 have demonstrated.
Speech isn’t.
Debateable. But the transcription is. And that was the point. I believe we are talking paste each other here; transcription not being at all like speech and in fact not being communication was my point. Perhaps we have actually been in agreement all along.
And when you speak, are the sound waves mechanical?
Not by according to the definition I provided when context is speech.
I don’t think you are, but I do think you and I are using a different definition of mechanical.
I think we’re using different definitions of communications system.
Could be, but then again, that would not change my point.Doveton
July 20, 2011
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Mung,
But this is nothing more than a claim that it can be done, not that is has been. Do you have a reference for Yockey actually measuring DNA information?
Are you serious?
Yep.
What is the source of your scepticism?
Wow...all that cutting and pasting and not one measurement by Yockey of information in DNA. Just curious, but do you know what "measurement" means, Mung? Incidentally, your last link is not working.Doveton
July 20, 2011
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Mike1962,
doveton: The problem here is that I can’t find any evidence that DNA is digital code for anything… I am not disputing that DNA imparts information.
The terms “genetic code” and “codons” are employed for a reason. Nucleotides are grouped in threes and rendered into amino acids based on a particular set of three nucleotides. Four nucleotide possibilities per digit times three digits yields 32 codes or “codons.” Those codes are explicitly mapped to amino acid production and termination. This is analogous to MIDI codes in music or holes in a player piano’s paper roll. They are symbolic codes. That’s why we can write them out using alpha letters: AGA GAG GTG GAG CTC CTA Which amount to codes for the code. Deal with it. We’re dealing with codes here. You’re just playing games and nobody is impressed.
Which, as noted in the discussion Ciphertext and I had earlier, is not the same thing as computer code and message data. I'm good with you illustrating my point so well, however. Thank you!Doveton
July 20, 2011
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Mike1962,
doveton: Not there isn’t, and indeed that is my point. Pseudo-code is the basis of how computer coding works, but is not analogous to how DNA works.
The DNA/codons/ribosome mechanism is more analogous to CDC machines that to mere computers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_lathe
I believe you mean "CNC" machine, in which case I pretty much agree that the mechanism is more analogous to that than a computer.Doveton
July 20, 2011
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http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com/information-theory-made-simple/Mung
July 19, 2011
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Doveton:
Most communication I’m aware of is not purely mechanical.
So what. You were taking about transcription and arguing that because transcription is mechanical DNA cannot communicate anything. Your objections, as I've shown, is specious. So now what is your objection?
Speech isn’t.
Debateable. But the transcription is. And that was the point. And when you speak, are the sound waves mechanical?
I don’t think you are, but I do think you and I are using a different definition of mechanical.
I think we're using different definitions of communications system. http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com/solve/Mung
July 19, 2011
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mike1962 @ 229 ;-) p.s. Like trying to grab smoke... or as I said earlier in this thread, I think, who can remember, it's like being ignored and argued with at the same time.tgpeeler
July 19, 2011
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Doveton:
But this is nothing more than a claim that it can be done, not that is has been. Do you have a reference for Yockey actually measuring DNA information?
Are you serious?
This paper discusses how Claude Shannon, the founder of information theory, came to be regarded a biologist. It was discovered that Shannon's channel capacity theorem only applied to living organisms and their products, such as communication channels and molecular machines that make choices from several possibilities. Information theory is therefore a theory about biology, which makes Shannon a biologist. Shannon's work then meant that communications systems and molecular biology are headed on a collision course. As electrical circuits approach molecular sizes, the results of molecular biologists can be used to guide designs. There may come a time when communications and biology will be treated as a single field. The codes discovered for communications potentially teach new biology if the same codes are found in biological system. On the other hand, discoveries in molecular biology about systems that have been refined by evolution for billions of years could help build new and more efficient communications systems. here See also: here
This article introduces the physics of information in the context of molecular biology and genomics. Entropy and information, the two central concepts of Shannon’s theory of information and communication, are often confused with each other but play ransparent roles when applied to statistical ensembles (i.e., identically prepared sets) of symbolic sequences. Such an approach can distinguish between entropy and information in genes, predict the secondary structure of ribozymes, and detect the covariation between residues in folded proteins. We also review applications to molecular sequence and structure analysis, and introduce new tools in the characterization of resistance mutations, and in drug design. here
The role and the contribution of Shannon Information Theory to the development of Molecular Biology has been the object of stimulating debates during the last thirty years. This seems to be connected with some semantic charms associated with the use of the word “information” in the biological context. Furthermore information itself, if viewed in a broader perspective, is far from being completely defined in a fashion that overcomes the technical level at which the classical Information Theory has been conceived. This review aims at building on the acknowledged contribution of Shannon Information Theory to Molecular Biology, so as to discover if it is only a technical tool to analyze DNA and proteinic sequences, or if it can rise, at least in perspective, to a higher role that exerts an influence on the construction of a suitable model for handling the genetic information in Molecular Biology. here
The DNA sequencing efforts of the past years together with rapid progress in sequencing technology have generated a huge amount of sequence data available in public molecular databases. This recent development makes it statistically feasible to apply universal concepts from Shannon’s information theory to problems in molecular biology, e.g to use mutual information for gene mapping and phylogenetic classification. Additionally, the genetic information in the cell is continuously subject to mutations.However, it has to be passed from generation to generation with high fidelity, raising the question of existence of error protection and correction mechanisms similar to those used in technical communication systems. Finally, better understanding of genetic information processing on the molecular level in the cell can be acquired by looking for parallels to well established models in communication theory, e.g. there exist analogies between gene expression and frame synchronization. here
What is the source of your scepticism?Mung
July 19, 2011
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The Tarnished Rule Do unto others as you would have them do to you, unless they cannot do unto you what you would do to them.Mung
July 19, 2011
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Liz: Not at all. A good start would be to join a library that has good access to scientific journals. You will find a great many specifics
I was talking about the specifics with regards to the text I quoted from tgpeeler. Care to take a stab at it?
Yes, you are probably correct. What we don’t know certainly massively outweight what we do.
And yet for some strange reason you feel the urge to say things like this:
Well, it’s a long story, tgpeeler, and it starts with the beginnings of life on this planet which I think is likely to be due to physics and chemistry, and which you probably dispute. Then, once life has started, I think that the laws of physics and chemistry gave rise to a system in which self-replicators continued to self-replicate with variance in the efficiency with which they self replicated, and that these variants arose from mutations in the molecule DNA, and organisms bearing copies of those molecules that promoted more efficient self-replication because more numerous.
What makes you think your putative scenario is likely?
However, what we can do is try to make predictive models that, if supported, tell us something about the regularities of the world, and at least generalise a little from our samples.
By all means, I'm all for it.
mike: Moreover, your views are not at all wholly derived from logic. Liz: No, they probably aren’t... As for my “worldview” – I’m not sure you should presume to know what it is.
Aren't your words on UD reflective of it? Haven't you basically asserted on the pages of UD that Good is God, that you reject a personal creator and think that life "likely" came to exist via blind chemical processes, and that all the bioforms were created by blind evokution? On that basis, what serious contenders for a worldview might you have?
I still maintain that the Golden Rule is essentially rational.
Do tell.
Well, yes. That’s one of the objections I have to deriving fundamental principles of justice from religious scriptures.
So where should we derive them?
Well, no – one is largely cognitive, the other largely emotive.
Well, let's see. Lay it out for me and we'll have a look. I'm sure reasoning forms part of your "faith", as it does with most people, including Voodoo practitioners, but unless your view somehow tickled your emotions you probably wouldn't abide it. But, again, let's see what ya got. ;)
Both are of value, but objective observers can agree on what is fair; objective observers cannot agree as to whether the Virgin Mary makes people feel good.
I don't know, I see a lot of squabbles about "fairness" and I find it far from objective. But let's see what ya got.
But I would agree that there is no absolutely objective way of arriving at moral principles.
Great. I think you just saved us both some time.
The Golden Rule has the huge virtue, however, of clearly benefiting everyone, whereas “everyone for him/herself” doesn’t.
"Benefit" itself is subjective. If we can't find an objective source for that, how can we move on to an implementation? Anyway, go ahead and use that argument with a mugger if you happen to get mugged and see how far you get. Answer me this? Is it "right" or "wrong" for a lion to kill a gazelle? If it's not "wrong", then why is it not wrong if stronger humans exploit weaker humans? Slavery DOES work! For the slaveowners. Why is it "wrong?" Seems to me, that to really get to the goal you have in mind, someone or something is going to have to effect a change in human nature to remove all the nasty things about us that get us into trouble. Eugenics anyone? (Or God?) But who will save us from the saviors? BTW, don't take any of this as a personal affront to you in any "everyday" sort of way. I'm sure you're a very nice gal in person, who most people here would be happy to sit and have a beer/coffee/tea with. :)mike1962
July 19, 2011
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I still maintain that the Golden Rule is essentially rational. So is 'might makes right'. So is 'do whatever you like when you can'. Both are of value, but objective observers can agree on what is fair; objective observers cannot agree as to whether the Virgin Mary makes people feel good. So the thousands of years of philosophical disagreement on what is "fair" just gets brushed aside here, eh? Or do you mean that 'at least some objective observers can agree on what is fair'? But some objective observers can agree whether the Virgin Mary makes people feel good too. The Golden Rule has the huge virtue, however, of clearly benefiting everyone, whereas “everyone for him/herself” doesn’t. Actually, there are losers under a Golden Rule setup: The stronger, the faster, etc. There are benefit tradeoffs. And why should anyone care that 'more benefit', or maximizing 'benefit' to begin with? And then there are conflicting ideas of 'benefit' with - if objective morality is objective - no real ultimate underpinning anyway. That’s one of the objections I have to deriving fundamental principles of justice from religious scriptures. But many religious people would argue that they do not 'derive fundamental principles of justice' from religious scriptures - they come from God, or from an objective and rock-bottom good, if their view is right. Suggesting that these things are merely "derived from a book" comes with the assumption that the religions are wrong.nullasalus
July 19, 2011
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doveton: The problem here is that I can’t find any evidence that DNA is digital code for anything... I am not disputing that DNA imparts information.
The terms "genetic code" and "codons" are employed for a reason. Nucleotides are grouped in threes and rendered into amino acids based on a particular set of three nucleotides. Four nucleotide possibilities per digit times three digits yields 32 codes or "codons." Those codes are explicitly mapped to amino acid production and termination. This is analogous to MIDI codes in music or holes in a player piano's paper roll. They are symbolic codes. That's why we can write them out using alpha letters: AGA GAG GTG GAG CTC CTA Which amount to codes for the code. Deal with it. We're dealing with codes here. You're just playing games and nobody is impressed.mike1962
July 19, 2011
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Mike1962:
Liz: There is no objective way of deciding who the True God is. At least mine is derived from logic
In your worldview, logic is a mere pragmatic facility with no demonstrable inferential power to decide the Big Questions. Moreover, your views are not at all wholly derived from logic.
No, they probably aren't. I still maintain that the Golden Rule is essentially rational. As for my "worldview" - I'm not sure you should presume to know what it is.
“what is most likely to benefit everyone),” What “benefit” means is highly subjective swamp and depends on the foundation philosophical baggage.
Well, yes. That's one of the objections I have to deriving fundamental principles of justice from religious scriptures.
“and so has some measure of objectivity (many people can agree it makes sense). Many (more I suspect) people agree that the Blessed Virgin helps them in their time of need. Like your view, this may make them feel good, and it may even be true, but it’s neither science, nor rational.
Well, no - one is largely cognitive, the other largely emotive. Both are of value, but objective observers can agree on what is fair; objective observers cannot agree as to whether the Virgin Mary makes people feel good. But I would agree that there is no absolutely objective way of arriving at moral principles. The Golden Rule has the huge virtue, however, of clearly benefiting everyone, whereas "everyone for him/herself" doesn't. So one can see, with fairly elementary reasoning, that the first will probably benefit more people than the second, which will benefit the strong at the expense of the weak. I'm sure you would agree.Elizabeth Liddle
July 19, 2011
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doveton: Not there isn’t, and indeed that is my point. Pseudo-code is the basis of how computer coding works, but is not analogous to how DNA works.
The DNA/codons/ribosome mechanism is more analogous to CDC machines that to mere computers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_lathemike1962
July 19, 2011
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Mike 1962
Yes, trying to get specifics out of the materialists is like pulling teeth from a hungry crocodile’s mouth.
Not at all. A good start would be to join a library that has good access to scientific journals. You will find a great many specifics. And many journals are now open access, so you can find the specifics online. the great thing about scientific publishing is that you have be specific. The entire methodology mandates specifics.
1% fact. 99% gap and speculation. Although I would bet my last rusty button the ratio is much slimmer than that.
Yes, you are probably correct. What we don't know certainly massively outweight what we do. However, what we can do is try to make predictive models that, if supported, tell us something about the regularities of the world, and at least generalise a little from our samples.Elizabeth Liddle
July 19, 2011
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tgpeeler: "What kind of system? What are the inputs? What are the internal processes? What is the logic? What are the rules? Who determined them? What are the outputs? Who designed the overall system? Did it just happen? How? Where did the self-replicator come from? What did they look like? Why would anything replicate? Why is there a struggle for life and where did that come from? Explain that in naturalist terms. What drives the replication process? Where did the enzymes (specialized proteins) come from that are necessary for the construction of proteins? This isn’t an argument, it’s a FAIRY TALE. "
Haha. Hahahahaha. I just love it. Yes, trying to get specifics out of the materialists is like pulling teeth from a hungry crocodile's mouth. 1% fact. 99% gap and speculation. Although I would bet my last rusty button the ratio is much slimmer than that. Thanks tgpeeler for your presence here. I can add you to the list of excellent minds that have joined the circus here. Your bullsh*t detector is in top form.mike1962
July 19, 2011
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And of course, when you peel off their masks what they REALLY want is no God "for whom all men will give an account." But I digress.mike1962
July 19, 2011
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Liz: There is no objective way of deciding who the True God is. At least mine is derived from logic
In your worldview, logic is a mere pragmatic facility with no demonstrable inferential power to decide the Big Questions. Moreover, your views are not at all wholly derived from logic. "what is most likely to benefit everyone)," What "benefit" means is highly subjective swamp and depends on the foundation philosophical baggage.
"and so has some measure of objectivity (many people can agree it makes sense).
Many (more I suspect) people agree that the Blessed Virgin helps them in their time of need. Like your view, this may make them feel good, and it may even be true, but it's neither science, nor rational.mike1962
July 19, 2011
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Nullasalus: (okay, it denies the obvious, but what’s obvious has to be an illusion because materialism is true, and besides if we deny the obvious the problem becomes tractable for materialism, even though materialism is just a metaphor :) :) :) ).
As my grand-pappy used to say, "son, if you're sitting on a tree branch, don't saw the part between you and the tree." Materialism destroys its own credentials, of course. Oh, but wait! Since science is merely a pragmatic enterprise, not concerned with Truth writ large, it's ok to destroy the ultimate credentials of human reason since it doesn't really affects its practical application. Then fine, stop venturing out into the swamp of "meaning" and "ultimate origins", stop making inferences that go way beyond practical utility. You see, they want it both ways. They want materialism to be true, for human inferences to be merely practical, and yet at the same time act as if their reason somehow stands above it all. And expect the rest of us to bow down to folly.mike1962
July 19, 2011
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Mung,
Partially, but DNA is also not a medium on which a message is stored. DNA does not “communicate” with anything; the action of transcription is purely mechanical. Do you know of any communication system which is not mechanical? Yes - speaking.
Are you not communicating using your computer, and the internet, and another computer on the far end, and is that not all mechanical?
It is not purely mechanical - the thoughts I'm relating via my keyboard are the non-mechanical.
If communications systems are mechanical, then how is this a valid objection?
Most communication I'm aware of is not purely mechanical.
Say that you are using a speech to text system through which you speak your words and have them transcribed into text by your computer. Is that not mechanical?
Speech isn't.
If so, why is the presence of mechanical transcription a valid objection?
It's purely mechanical.
Let me know if you think I’m equivocating over transcription.
I don't think you are, but I do think you and I are using a different definition of mechanical. Here's mine: a : done as if by machine : seemingly uninfluenced by the mind or emotions : automatic Merriam-WebsterDoveton
July 19, 2011
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@Doveton Post: 214 RE: DNA is code
That’s the point I’ve been addressing with my “DNA is code” comments. Certainly the analogy works at a superficial level. But if we then try to take that to a detailed level and compare it more specifically to the concept of coding for computer programs, it becomes inaccurate.
Are the inaccuracies you reference related not so much to computer code, rather than the resultant of computer code? That usually being a program as we term it? I will certainly agree with you that I do not find the notion that the source coding contained in DNA to be particularly compatible with the notion of a robust spreadsheet application like Microsoft's Excel. The two are world's apart, in terms of the functionality they provide. Excel is a very complex, application program, while DNA is most certainly not an application program. I do think you could say that DNA resembles computer code of the type you would find in C libraries, or Java libraries. The sorts of code that make programming applications possible, but that code itself not be an application program. I think it is a supportable position to say that DNA is by itself a base four digital code. If what you are saying is that there are four symbols (i.e. the G, A, T, and C) representative of the desired functionality inherent to a protein, used to message an instruction set(the code) in digital format (or discrete if you prefer) to the underlying hardware (cellular structures responsible for transcription). Would you be surprised to know that there is research being done that attempts to use DNA as a "computing device" (of sorts)? A mathematician by the name of Leonard Adelman has published a paper providing a description of how to utilize DNA to solve complex mathematical problems.ciphertext
July 19, 2011
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Mung,
Doveton:
Could you provide a reference for Yockey’s (or anyone elses’ work) measurement of DNA information. Thanks!
Yockey published on the topic for years. http://www.hubertpyockey.com/hpyblog/about/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubert_Yockey
Neither of those two references provide a reference to his measurement of DNA information. Here's the only statement that even indicates that such could be done:
Claude Shannon showed that information can be measured in any sequence that is digital, linear and segregated. Therefore the information in the genome can be measured. Therefore the genome-the critical element for evolution in biology-is not “irreducibly complex.” Therefore, there is no requirement in evolution for an Intelligent Designer.
But this is nothing more than a claim that it can be done, not that is has been. Do you have a reference for Yockey actually measuring DNA information?Doveton
July 19, 2011
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nullasalus: quoting Dennett: Dan Dennett on “I” and “intentionality”: Suppose you have composed a shopping list, on a piece of paper, to guide your shopping behavior. The marks on the piece of paper have derived intentionality, of course, but if you forgo the shopping list and just remember the wanted items in your head, whatever it is that “stores” or “represents” the items to be purchased in your brain has exactly the same status as the trails of ink on the paper. There is no more real, or intrinsic, or original intentionality than that.
Except, of course, that the thing that made the list "in one's brain" and "on the paper" is not identical with either one. It is clear, in an intuitive way, and scientifically, that the brain is made of many "subunits of function", and a list created in the memory by the will is not the same thing as the will that created the list in the memory. Duh. Dennett: a man good for hours and hours of snickering amusement. ;)mike1962
July 19, 2011
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tgpeeler: Indeed, free will is NECESSARY for the creation of information.
Interesting post, tgpeeler, but what about a bee doing a dance to inform other bees of the whereabouts of flowers? Information is certainly being conveyed, but is "free will" involved here? OK, so maybe what you mean to say is that ultimately free will has to be involved in the ability to create information, like, say, a free willed creator endowing bees (or computers) with an ability to tranfer information, but not that the proximate conveyor of information (the bee) is necessarily free?mike1962
July 19, 2011
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Doveton:
Partially, but DNA is also not a medium on which a message is stored. DNA does not “communicate” with anything; the action of transcription is purely mechanical.
Do you know of any communication system which is not mechanical? Are you not communicating using your computer, and the internet, and another computer on the far end, and is that not all mechanical? If communications systems are mechanical, then how is this a valid objection? Say that you are using a speech to text system through which you speak your words and have them transcribed into text by your computer. Is that not mechanical? If so, why is the presence of mechanical transcription a valid objection? Let me know if you think I'm equivocating over transcription.Mung
July 19, 2011
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"I’ve always said that DNA is alphabetic, not digital."
Alphabets are digital/discrete. And so is DNA.mike1962
July 19, 2011
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Doveton:
Could you provide a reference for Yockey’s (or anyone elses’ work) measurement of DNA information. Thanks!
Yockey published on the topic for years. http://www.hubertpyockey.com/hpyblog/about/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubert_YockeyMung
July 19, 2011
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Elizabeth Liddle:
I’ve always said that DNA is alphabetic, not digital. I haven’t yet been persuaded otherwise. But it contains information, on almost any definition. tbh, I don’t think that digital metaphors work for cells at all.
Lizzie, I am almost certain that I've also heard you object to letters/alphabet as a metaphor for DNA. Would I be wrong? So which definition of information do you believe applies best to DNA and the role of DNA in the cell?Mung
July 19, 2011
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Interesting, ciphertext :) Actually, as I suggested, I think there are a number of levels at which the computer metaphor can work. I found your idea that the proteins might be seen as the "machine code" interesting. I'm personally more interested in the way genes are switched off and on. That really does seem digital to me.Elizabeth Liddle
July 19, 2011
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@Elizabeth Little Posting 212 RE: DNA and codes
But that’s not usually the sense in which DNA is considered like a computer.
I am going to assume that by "computer", you are referring to the electric powered device you are using to express your ideas on this blog. I don't believe you can support an assertion that DNA is like a general purpose computer you reference. Certainly that is not what I am attempting to posit. Rather, I am positing that DNA, in relation to the human body, functions like the source code one would expect to be executed by microprocessors (general or specific). My analogy with the proteins being machine code is that they (proteins) are what would be manipulated by an interpretation of the DNA source code. Incidentally, I do believe proteins would make a very good digital analogue. Isn't a protein in a "discrete" state when it is folded a particular way? There is a professor/researcher named Leonard Adelman. You might know of his work, or might not. Certainly we all have used it at one point or another to secure our transactions online. His name, Adelman, is the "A" in the RSA public-key cryptography system. He has published a paper that provides a method to solve complex mathematical problems using DNA. I have not read that paper, but know of it. I'll link to a Scientific American article here which lists his scholarly paper and describes his work.ciphertext
July 19, 2011
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