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How ID sheds light on the classic free will dilemma

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The standard argument against free will is that it is incoherent.  It claims that a free agent must either be determined or non-determined.  If the free agent is determined, then it cannot be responsible for its choices.  On the other hand, if it is non-determined, then its choices are random and uncontrolled.  Neither case preserves the notion of responsibility that proponents of free will wish to maintain.  Thus, since there is no sensible way to define free will, it is incoherent. [1]

Note that this is not really an argument against free will, but merely an argument that we cannot talk about free will.  So, if someone were to produce another way of talking about free will the argument is satisfied.

Does ID help us in this case?  It appears so.  If we relabel “determinism” and “non-determinism” as “necessity” and “chance”, ID shows us that there is a third way we might talk about free will.

In the universe of ID there are more causal agents than the duo of necessity and chance.  There is also intelligent causality.  Dr. Dembski demonstrates this through his notion of the explanatory filter.  While the tractability of the explanatory filter may be up for debate, it is clear that the filter is a coherent concept.  The very fact that there is debate over whether it can be applied in a tractable manner means the filter is well defined enough to be debated.

The explanatory filter consists of a three stage process to detect design in an event.  First, necessity must be eliminated as a causal explanation.  This means the event cannot have been the precisely determined outcome of a prior state.  Second, chance must be eliminated.  As such, the event must be very unlikely to have occurred, such that it isn’t possible to have queried half or more of the event space with the number of queries available.

At this point, it may appear we’ve arrived at our needed third way, and quite easily at that.  We merely must deny that an event is caused by chance or necessity.  However, things are not so simple.  The problem is that these criteria do not specify an event.  If an event does meet these criteria, then the unfortunate implication is so does every other event in the event space.  In the end the criteria become a distinction without a difference, and we are thrust right back into the original dilemma.  Removing chance and necessity merely gives us improbability (P < 0.5), also called “complexity” in ID parlance.

What we need is a third criteria, called specificity.  This criteria can be thought of as a sort of compression, it describes the event in simpler terms.  One example is a STOP sign.  The basic material of the sign is a set of particles in a configuration.  To describe the sign in terms of the configuration is a very arduous and lengthy task, essentially a list of each particle’s type and position.  However, we can describe the sign in a much simpler manner by providing a computer, which knows how to compose particles into a sign according to a pattern language, with the instructions to write the word STOP on a sign.

According to a concept called Kolmogrov Complexity [2], such machines and instructions form a compression of the event, and thus specify a subset of the event space in an objective manner.  This solves the previous problem where no events were specified.  Now, only a small set of events are specified.  While KC is not a necessary component of Dr. Dembski’s explanatory filter, it can be considered a sufficient criteria for specificity.

With this third criteria of specificity, we now have a distinction that makes a difference.  Namely, it shows we still have something even after removing chance and necessity: we have complex specified information (CSI).  CSI has two properties that make it useful for the free will debate.  First, it is a definition of an event that is neither caused by necessity or chance.  As such, it is not susceptible to the original dilemma.  Furthermore, it provides a subtle and helpful distinction for the argument.  CSI does not avoid the distinction between determinism and non-determinism.  It still falls within the non-determinism branch.  However, CSI shows that randomness is not an exhaustive description of non-determinism.  Instead, the non-determinism branch further splits into a randomness branch and a CSI branch.

The second advantage of CSI is that it is a coherent concept defined with mathematical precision.  And, with a coherently definition, the original argument vanishes.  As pointed out in the beginning of the article, the classic argument against free will is not an argument against something.  It is merely an argument that we cannot talk about something because we do not possess sufficient language.  Properly understood, the classical argument is more of a question, asking what is the correct terminology.  But, with the advent of CSI we now have at least one answer to the classical question about free will.

So, how can we coherently talk about a responsible free will if we can only say it is either determined and necessary, or non-determined and potentially random?  One precise answer is that CSI describes an entity that is both non-determined while at the same time non-random.

——————-

[1] A rundown of many different forms of this argument is located here:http://www.informationphilosopher.com/freedom/standard_argument.html

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolmogorov_complexity

Comments
@Doveton RE: post 181
A code in science is a member of a class of objects called “symbols”. Symbols are objects that stand in place of actual physical concepts in language. There are two levels of symbols: primary symbols and secondary symbols. The word “universe” is a primary symbol for the physical universe. If people agree to use the slang term ‘verse’, that would be a second level symbol. Any second level symbol is called a code. So, a code is a symbol of a symbol.
Perhaps the issue is that there is a mismatch in how you defined "code" as it is being used in this thread, and how others have defined it? Code as defined by dictionary.com Indicates that there are a couple of different variations upon definitions the word. However, I found interesting that the definition of code as used by "genetics" explicitly states: "to specify the amino acid sequence of a protein by the sequence of nucleotides comprising the gene for that protein" Now, to be certain genetic code has a slightly different definition, but not appreciably so. I think what you are describing in your post is symbolic code also known as "pseudo-code". However, I don't believe there is an analogue for its application in the biological sciences is there?ciphertext
July 15, 2011
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"universe" is a symbol "verse" is a code Got it. AdiosUpright BiPed
July 15, 2011
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Elizabeth: You are of course correct that there is no law of physical necessity why UUU should map to phenylalanine. Taht's true. The reason it does so in a cell is because a specific RNA molecule -one of a family of RNA molecules called tRNA molecules – has a bonding site at one end for UUU and at the other for phenylalanine. Well, the tRNA has not a true "bonding site" for the codon, but rather an anticodon, which is its semantic correspondent. But the important point is that the correct coupling between tRNA and the correct aminoacid does not happen because the tRNA has a specific site for the aminoacid, but rather because a very specific protein, one of 20 aminoacyl-tRNA synthetases, "recognizes" the correct tRNAs with the correct antocodons, and couples them with the correct aminoacid. IOWs the correct working of the genetic code is ensured not by the tRNAs, but rather by 20 highly specific proteins, one for each aminoacid, grouped in two perotein classes (10 in one, 10 in the other). Now, these 20 proteins are very old and very complex, Just as an example, the glycil tRNA synthetase in E. coli is made of two subunits, one of 303 AAs, the other of 689 AAs. As you can see, all your follwoing reasoning about the darwinian selection of tRNAs is basically wrong: what you have to explain is at least: a) a redundant code of 64 codons to code for 20 aminoacids b) the whole DNA strucutre and replication system c) the whole transcription system c) 20 extremely complex proteins, which are necessary for translation in all living beings d) the correct tRNAs e) The whole translation system, that is the ribosomes with their very long RNA molecules and their 50 or more specific proteins (some of them are in the famous table of the Durston paper). Talk of irreducilble complexity! And don't tell me that protein synthesis had to be simpler in some imaginary precursor: show me that simpler system, or engineer it in the lab, and I will believe. Not before. I am a scientist, not a man of faith.gpuccio
July 15, 2011
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KF,
Onlookers, please read here, for an admission against interest: _________ >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_code Genetic code ...
And yes, as I've stated before, in casual conversation, DNA is referred to as "code" because in a simplistic sense it's an apt way to think about the structure. However, that term is not accurate in any literal sense and certainly not accurate scientifically for the reasons I gave. I'll elaborate. A code in science is a member of a class of objects called "symbols". Symbols are objects that stand in place of actual physical concepts in language. There are two levels of symbols: primary symbols and secondary symbols. The word "universe" is a primary symbol for the physical universe. If people agree to use the slang term 'verse', that would be a second level symbol. Any second level symbol is called a code. So, a code is a symbol of a symbol. Given the above, the specific problem with thinking of DNA as code is that guanine, cytosine, adenine, and thymine are not codes in the genetic structure, by definition. Three bases unlocked and copied as mRNA are not a code, by definition. They aren't even symbols in the sense of human language because they are the actual objects themselves. They don't stand for anything. You might argue that the arrangement of the DNA is a symbol, but that's being really liberal with the term and in the end makes the concept of DNA even less like computer code. The bottom line remains that it does not relate literally to human code at all.
First rule of holes: if you need to get out, stop digging in deeper.
Indeed. Along with getting off of dead horses, this is worthwhile advice. :)Doveton
July 15, 2011
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ciphertext: After reading through the postings in this thread, I believe I have become more confused on the subject of “meaning”. I’ve always operated on the assumption/presumption that there is no intrinsic “meaning” inherent in any physical entity. Rather that “meaning” is ascribed to a physical object by a “non physical” entity (I associate this “non physical” entity with the notion of “consciousness”). I’ve not been presented any evidence to the contrary. You are perfectly right. A lot of confusion is created in these discussion when people (from both sides) try to treat information (and other similar concepts) as though it were an objective reality, either material or immaterial. The simple truth is that information is a subjective reality, that exist only in a conscious intelligent being. A book does not contain really information. It contains specific forms that are recognizable by a conscious intelligent being and create information in its consciousness, because that same information was in the beginning represented in an other conscious intelligent being, who transferred effective forms to a material mediun so that similar representations could be evoked in other conscious intelligent being. Like meaning and purpose, information has no objective reality, but it can be transmitted though objective supports. For instance, a protein is certainly an objective reality, and if it has an enzymatic activity, it certainly objectively accelerates some reaction in the right context. These are objective facts. But only a consciousness can define the enzimatic function, and recognize a finality in those facts. Otherwise, they are facts exactly like the existence of a stone or of a grain of sand. Meaning and purpose are properties of consciousness. In a non conscious universe, no meaning or purpose would exist. That's why, in my empirical definition of dFSCI (often presented here) I need the empirical concept of "conscious intelligent being" to define both the design process and the procedure to detect it. No objective theory, least of all strong AI, can explain subjective reality. The hard problem of consciousness is and will remain unsolved. We cannot explain consciousness. We can only accept it as part of reality, and try to describe and understand its properties.gpuccio
July 15, 2011
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Doveton: It is not DNA that is code. The genetic code is a code, a symbolic code which allow to translate the information in DNA into the final fucntional form (the functional sequence of AAs in the protein. And, as I have showed you, if us humans have to transmit the information about a protein sequence, we use forms of "language" that are similar, because that is the best way to transmit a functional sequence. You ask: "What does DNA “talk” to? " Well, in a sense it is not DNA that "talks", but rather the designer of living system that implements his design through (among other things) DNA. But, in another sense, DNA transmits the information stored in it: a) to new moleculel of DNA, in DNA replication (and therefore, to new cells). b) to mRNA, in transcription, and throgh it to the final protein, through the translation process.gpuccio
July 15, 2011
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Upright BiPed: You are of course correct that there is no law of physical necessity why UUU should map to phenylalanine. The reason it does so in a cell is because a specific RNA molecule -one of a family of RNA molecules called tRNA molecules - has a bonding site at one end for UUU and at the other for phenylalanine. So the first question we should ask is: how many tRNA molecules are physically possible, and, of those, how many have a bonding site for UUU at one end and some amino acid other than phenylalanine at the other? I don't know the answer, but I don't know any good reason why there could not be a tRNA molecule that has any combination of codon at one end and amino acid at the other. And with 64 possible codons and 20 possible amino acids, I make that 1280 possible tRNA molecules. So why, in a cell, of the 1280 possible of tRNA molecules, do we actually find only a small subset, namely 61? And that within this set there are no duplicates at the codon end? That's the key question, right? Why such a specific set (with no duplicate codon ends)? Well, the short answer of course is that the DNA in all cells (that I know of) codes for those 61 tNRA molecules, and for no others. But what of a cell where it doesn't? Where, by bad luck, a much larger subset of the possible 1280 were coded for in the DNA? Well, the first thing that would happen is that if there were more than one tRNA molecule in a cell that bonded to UUU, the coding would be very unreliable. Perhaps there is a tRNA molecule with a UUU binding site at at one end, and methionine at the other. Sometimes the right protein would be made, sometimes the wrong protein. Would such a cell have many offspring? Probably not. And what about a cell with DNA that coded for too few tRNA molecules, so that some amino acid could not be made at all? Again, probably not. Obviously the most efficient thing would be just 20 tRNA molecules - one for each amino acid. That might be what an Intelligent Designer would do. However, if you just let the thing replicate with DNA mutations, with the ones with better sets of tRNA molecules tending to produce more offspring than the onse with worse sets, you might well end up with rather more variety than you need, but as that is cost-free pretty well (DNA is cheap to make) then that doesn't matter. Once all twenty amino acids are covered, and are no ambiguities (tRNA molecules that have the same codon end but different amino acid ends) there isn't really much room for improvement. Now, never mind whether you accept my Darwinian account of tRNA molecule selection or not - the point is that while there is no physical reason that I am aware of why other tRNA molecules might not be in the final cut, there IS a selective reason why the final cut should cover all the amino acids that seem to be useful AND have no duplicates. And while I hesitate at this juncture to offer another sim, I would suggest that it would be trivial to code an evolutionary algorithm that started with randomly generated tRNA molecules, and narrowed them down to an optimal set. I also suggest that in any given run of the sim you'd get a different set. What would be common to all sets would be a One to One-or-More mapping between virtual amino acid and codon, but which tRNA molecules ended up in any given set would be entirely a matter of chance. Now, you could well argue that this is just how human language works - it doesn't matter whether we call a bird a bird or a oiseau - all that matters is that there is an approximately one-to-one mapping between signifier and signified. But that wouldn't mean that such an arbitrary mapping had to be the product of a mind. I think I've shown that as long as there is a reproductive advantage in a One to One mapping, the closer the set of tRNA molecules the cell makes is to an optimal set, the more copies of cells containing that set will tend to be made. Which may not be exactly physics, but it isn't exactly Not Physics Neither. BTW: I started a reply to you on the other thread - I'll go finish it now.Elizabeth Liddle
July 15, 2011
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BIPED: Doveton, does your computer process symbols? Doveton: No And the moment he typed "NO" all the little N's and all the little O's in his keyboard shreaked out loud - as if they lost a bet - while all the other little letters heaved a great sigh of relief. There was a big Goodbye! Celebration with hugs and snapshots with freinds, while the N and the O shook hands with the crowd and slapped on their running shoes. And off down the wire they went....Upright BiPed
July 15, 2011
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Ciphertext,
…It probably would have been more accurate to say that DNA is the cipher (the actual algorithm for encryption), but the point is that DNA is not the code or plaintext.
So is your point to say that DNA isn’t the resultant coded message, rather it is the formula you would apply to obtain the resultant coded message?
I mean to say that DNA is similar to a cipher as looked at from the POV 3 bases being "unlocked" and copied as mRNA which then synthesizes the polypeptide based on the sequence of the 3 base sets.Doveton
July 15, 2011
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"First rule of holes: if you need to get out, stop digging in deeper." When the horse is dead, get off.Upright BiPed
July 15, 2011
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Onlookers, please read here, for an admission against interest: _________ >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_code Genetic code From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia The genetic code is the set of rules by which information encoded in genetic material (DNA or mRNA sequences) is translated into proteins (amino acid sequences) by living cells. The code defines how sequences of three nucleotides, called codons, specify which amino acid will be added next during protein synthesis. With some exceptions,[1] a three-nucleotide codon in a nucleic acid sequence specifies a single amino acid. Because the vast majority of genes are encoded with exactly the same code (see the RNA codon table), this particular code is often referred to as the canonical or standard genetic code, or simply the genetic code, though in fact there are many variant codes. For example, protein synthesis in human mitochondria relies on a genetic code that differs from the standard genetic code. Not all genetic information is stored using the genetic code. All organisms' DNA contains regulatory sequences, intergenic segments, chromosomal structural areas, and other non-coding DNA that can contribute greatly to phenotype. Those elements operate under sets of rules that are distinct from the codon-to-amino acid paradigm underlying the genetic code . . . >> ____________ First rule of holes: if you need to get out, stop digging in deeper.kairosfocus
July 15, 2011
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You made the claim that you had unrefuted evidence to support your disagreement.
Object A does not physically interact with object B. Full stop. - - - - - - If you would like to say "but I have other evidence that demonstrates how they became associated" then you may by all means provide it.Upright BiPed
July 15, 2011
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“Sufficient work has been done for folks to declare that DNA is language or code.” It was. It was done a long time ago. Nirenberg, Khorana and Holley won the 1968 Nobel for doing it.
That’s very nice, but that still isn’t a reference for unrefuted evidence.
I'm not going to hold your hand for you. You can read.Upright BiPed
July 15, 2011
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UB,
Doveton, does your computer process symbols? No
Really, no 1s and 0s for you huh? Great.Upright BiPed
July 15, 2011
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UB,
Doveton, you’ve become confused.
Wouldn't be the first time...
It is I who disagrees that the mapping of polyuracil to phenylalanine was physically determined. If is you who proposesd that the mapping is a product of physics.
I most definitely understand this. You made the claim that you had unrefuted evidence to support your disagreement. I have asked to to point me to that evidence so that I might evaluate it. You have yet to provide it however.Doveton
July 15, 2011
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UB,
“Sufficient work has been done for folks to declare that DNA is language or code.” It was. It was done a long time ago. Nirenberg, Khorana and Holley won the 1968 Nobel for doing it.
That's very nice, but that still isn't a reference for unrefuted evidence.Doveton
July 15, 2011
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UB,
DOveton, does your computer process symbols?
No.Doveton
July 15, 2011
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Doveton, you've become confused. It is I who disagrees that the mapping of polyuracil to phenylalanine was physically determined. If is you who proposesd that the mapping is a product of physics.Upright BiPed
July 15, 2011
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"Sufficient work has been done for folks to declare that DNA is language or code." It was. It was done a long time ago. Nirenberg, Khorana and Holley won the 1968 Nobel for doing it.Upright BiPed
July 15, 2011
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UB,
“If you have “unrefuted evidence against it”, I’d love to read it. Thanks in advance!” Have you ever read any data on the issue? The tRNA holds the amino acid on one end of its structure, and the anti-codon on the other. The two discrete entities never interact.
I'm quite familar with how tRNA operates. This is not, however, "unrefuted evidence for UUU (and UUC) transcripting to phenylalanine as a byproduct of physics. Can you point me to said unrefuted evidence?Doveton
July 15, 2011
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DOveton, does your computer process symbols?Upright BiPed
July 15, 2011
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Hello ciphertext, For the purposes of protein synthesis, DNA contains representations of the states of a discrete objects. Those representations are encoded by means of a base four symbol system. Those symbols are fed into an assembler (the ribosome) which acts to bring the representation in contact with the protocols (tRNA) that allow the transfer of one sequence into another sequence while they remain seperate. It is the point where the information is transfered to the output and the output becomes constrained by it. The second sequence (the ouput) is then folded into a three-dimensional protein, as directed by the symbolic representation contained in DNA.Upright BiPed
July 15, 2011
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UB,
What does DNA “talk” to?
In the ribosome, to the tRNA protocols.
What tRNA protocols? Do you mean the binding sites? Seems odd to refer to mechanical binding as "talking".
What “language” does DNA “speak” in?
Base four digital.
I'm not familiar with a description in molecular biology for this language. Could you point me to a reference for it? Thanks!
Why doesn’t DNA follow Zipf’s Law pattern?
Science has some data regarding about 2% of the genetic code. You don’t know the rest, but even so, you seem willing to disregard what we already know to be true.
This doesn't answer the question. Sufficient work has been done for folks to declare that DNA is language or code. If so, then there's more than enough evidence to demonstrate the frequencies for words that correspond to the Zipf Law. Nothing in the genome shows any such correspondence however. Given that all words in languages that humans recognize do have frequencies that correspond to Zipf's Law, it seems premature and/or erroneous to declare that DNA is language.Doveton
July 15, 2011
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...It probably would have been more accurate to say that DNA is the cipher (the actual algorithm for encryption), but the point is that DNA is not the code or plaintext.
So is your point to say that DNA isn't the resultant coded message, rather it is the formula you would apply to obtain the resultant coded message?ciphertext
July 15, 2011
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"If you have “unrefuted evidence against it”, I’d love to read it. Thanks in advance!" Have you ever read any data on the issue? The tRNA holds the amino acid on one end of its structure, and the anti-codon on the other. The two discrete entities never interact.Upright BiPed
July 15, 2011
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What does DNA “talk” to? In the ribosome, to the tRNA protocols. What “language” does DNA “speak” in? Base four digital. Why doesn’t DNA follow Zipf’s Law pattern? Science has some data regarding about 2% of the genetic code. You don't know the rest, but even so, you seem willing to disregard what we already know to be true.Upright BiPed
July 15, 2011
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After reading through the postings in this thread, I believe I have become more confused on the subject of "meaning". I've always operated on the assumption/presumption that there is no intrinsic "meaning" inherent in any physical entity. Rather that "meaning" is ascribed to a physical object by a "non physical" entity (I associate this "non physical" entity with the notion of "consciousness"). I've not been presented any evidence to the contrary. It seems to me that there simply isn't a mechanism (maybe a lack of sufficient symbolism?) available for us to provide an explanation between how the physical substance of existence (elements and forces) gave rise to a non-physical entity (consciousness). There appears to be a great body of symbolism available to ascribe meanings to the physical substances of existence (chief in my view being philosophy and mathematics, but also chemistry and physics [as allied sciences]). But I am not sure about how one could use symbolism developed with the express purpose of ascribing meaning to objects of the physical realm, to instead describe objects that I believe to be non-physical. In my opinion, it would be a problem equivalent to explaining the "color" of light to a blind person. It would be beyond their perceptual ability to understand (by this I mean to both ascribe "meaning" and discern "meaning") most, if not all, of the visible spectrum with respect to vision. You could not use any symbolism that relied upon visual stimulation. Either directly, as in the "showing of a color swatch", or indirectly as in "the sky looks blue during the day" and "See that building? It is painted in blue coloring". Note: I do accept the potentiality of explaining "blue" (and other visible light) using auditory or other perceptual clues. However, my point is to say that; Similar to the difficulties experienced by a blind person in attempting to understand vision (i.e. lacking in perceptual capacities), we might not have the perceptual capacity to understand what (if anything) allows for communication of information between physical and non-physical entities (or...the physical substance of existence and consciousness).ciphertext
July 15, 2011
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Doveton:
And, unlike human language, DNA follows no “Power Law” a la Zipf.
You've got to be kidding. You're going to introduce "power laws" to the debate? What a red herring.Mung
July 15, 2011
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gpuccio,
Doveton: The actual mechanical action of the conversion IS the result of DNA, not of the DNA “talking to” anything.
What do you mean? DNA bears the information for the protein exactly as a sequence of bits in a hard disk bears the information for a program. Where is the difference?
What does DNA "talk" to? What "language" does DNA "speak" in? Why doesn't DNA follow Zipf's Law pattern? In other words, it does not follow that because DNA seems to store information in the same way that hard drives store bits, DNA must be code.
As far as I’m concerned, there’s very little similarity between DNA and our system of symbolic communication.
Why do you say that?
I provided the reason above.Doveton
July 15, 2011
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UPD:
You may not want to wade in too deep all at once Doveton. If you want to go through your life thinking that UUU inherently means phenylalanine as a byproduct of physics, despite the unrefuted evidence against it, then by all means, be my guest.
Interesting. I think this may be the key to our problem. Back shortly.Elizabeth Liddle
July 15, 2011
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