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How ID sheds light on the classic free will dilemma

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The standard argument against free will is that it is incoherent.  It claims that a free agent must either be determined or non-determined.  If the free agent is determined, then it cannot be responsible for its choices.  On the other hand, if it is non-determined, then its choices are random and uncontrolled.  Neither case preserves the notion of responsibility that proponents of free will wish to maintain.  Thus, since there is no sensible way to define free will, it is incoherent. [1]

Note that this is not really an argument against free will, but merely an argument that we cannot talk about free will.  So, if someone were to produce another way of talking about free will the argument is satisfied.

Does ID help us in this case?  It appears so.  If we relabel “determinism” and “non-determinism” as “necessity” and “chance”, ID shows us that there is a third way we might talk about free will.

In the universe of ID there are more causal agents than the duo of necessity and chance.  There is also intelligent causality.  Dr. Dembski demonstrates this through his notion of the explanatory filter.  While the tractability of the explanatory filter may be up for debate, it is clear that the filter is a coherent concept.  The very fact that there is debate over whether it can be applied in a tractable manner means the filter is well defined enough to be debated.

The explanatory filter consists of a three stage process to detect design in an event.  First, necessity must be eliminated as a causal explanation.  This means the event cannot have been the precisely determined outcome of a prior state.  Second, chance must be eliminated.  As such, the event must be very unlikely to have occurred, such that it isn’t possible to have queried half or more of the event space with the number of queries available.

At this point, it may appear we’ve arrived at our needed third way, and quite easily at that.  We merely must deny that an event is caused by chance or necessity.  However, things are not so simple.  The problem is that these criteria do not specify an event.  If an event does meet these criteria, then the unfortunate implication is so does every other event in the event space.  In the end the criteria become a distinction without a difference, and we are thrust right back into the original dilemma.  Removing chance and necessity merely gives us improbability (P < 0.5), also called “complexity” in ID parlance.

What we need is a third criteria, called specificity.  This criteria can be thought of as a sort of compression, it describes the event in simpler terms.  One example is a STOP sign.  The basic material of the sign is a set of particles in a configuration.  To describe the sign in terms of the configuration is a very arduous and lengthy task, essentially a list of each particle’s type and position.  However, we can describe the sign in a much simpler manner by providing a computer, which knows how to compose particles into a sign according to a pattern language, with the instructions to write the word STOP on a sign.

According to a concept called Kolmogrov Complexity [2], such machines and instructions form a compression of the event, and thus specify a subset of the event space in an objective manner.  This solves the previous problem where no events were specified.  Now, only a small set of events are specified.  While KC is not a necessary component of Dr. Dembski’s explanatory filter, it can be considered a sufficient criteria for specificity.

With this third criteria of specificity, we now have a distinction that makes a difference.  Namely, it shows we still have something even after removing chance and necessity: we have complex specified information (CSI).  CSI has two properties that make it useful for the free will debate.  First, it is a definition of an event that is neither caused by necessity or chance.  As such, it is not susceptible to the original dilemma.  Furthermore, it provides a subtle and helpful distinction for the argument.  CSI does not avoid the distinction between determinism and non-determinism.  It still falls within the non-determinism branch.  However, CSI shows that randomness is not an exhaustive description of non-determinism.  Instead, the non-determinism branch further splits into a randomness branch and a CSI branch.

The second advantage of CSI is that it is a coherent concept defined with mathematical precision.  And, with a coherently definition, the original argument vanishes.  As pointed out in the beginning of the article, the classic argument against free will is not an argument against something.  It is merely an argument that we cannot talk about something because we do not possess sufficient language.  Properly understood, the classical argument is more of a question, asking what is the correct terminology.  But, with the advent of CSI we now have at least one answer to the classical question about free will.

So, how can we coherently talk about a responsible free will if we can only say it is either determined and necessary, or non-determined and potentially random?  One precise answer is that CSI describes an entity that is both non-determined while at the same time non-random.

——————-

[1] A rundown of many different forms of this argument is located here:http://www.informationphilosopher.com/freedom/standard_argument.html

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolmogorov_complexity

Comments
UB,
Well, simply put, DNA is not a language; it’s an encryption.
ENCRYPTION: In cryptography, encryption is the process of transforming information using an algorithm to make it unreadable to anyone except those possessing special knowledge, usually referred to as a key. encryption – Encryption is the conversion of data into a form, called a ciphertext, that cannot be easily understood by unauthorized people. Encyption The coding of a clear text message by a transmitting unit so as to prevent unauthorized eavesdropping along the transmission line. encrypt: to put (a message) into code
I'm glad to see you can paste from likes of Wikipedia, Whatis, and other such sites. Did you by chance note the difference between encryption and (in terms of how we humans use it in cryptography) the message that gets encrypted? It probably would have been more accurate to say that DNA is the cipher (the actual algorithm for encryption), but the point is that DNA is not the code or plaintext.
In addition, DNA does more than make proteins, so by definition it can’t be a code or language since the symbols in DNA do not relate to only one specific object or concept.
2 + 2 = 4
Not sure what your point is here. - – - – -
You may not want to wade in too deep all at once Doveton. If you want to go through your life thinking that UUU inherently means phenylalanine as a byproduct of physics, despite the unrefuted evidence against it, then by all means, be my guest.
If you have "unrefuted evidence against it", I'd love to read it. Thanks in advance!
I’m certainly not going to try and stop you. Cheers…
I certainly would hope not; I certainly don't think people should be stopped from drawing their own conclusions about the world around them. That said, I do think that folks who claim to have unrefuted evidence that contradicts a person's freely drawn conclusion should ask if the person would like to investigate said evidence, and if yes, should then provide a way for said person to do his or her own investigation of said evidence.Doveton
July 15, 2011
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ciphertext: What do you mean when you say that mankind did not “invent symbol systems or recorded information”? Who/what did the invention and recording? If I may try an answer, I would say that the simple meaning is that the functional information for proteins is in the DNA, and is coded by the symbolic DBA code, as shown in my previous post. Humans have only discovered both the information and the code, observing what was in the cell. Humans have not discovered the sequence of a functional protein binding heme and oxygen: they have just found that protein in the cell. And the symbolic system connecting protein genes to the coded proteins hase not been created by us: we have just paifully deciphered it by long lab work.gpuccio
July 15, 2011
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Doveton: The actual mechanical action of the conversion IS the result of DNA, not of the DNA “talking to” anything. What do you mean? DNA bears the information for the protein exactly as a sequence of bits in a hard disk bears the information for a program. Where is the difference? In addition, DNA does more than make proteins, so by definition it can’t be a code or language since the symbols in DNA do not relate to only one specific object or concept. DNA is a more dynamic structure than our symbolic systems. Again, I don't understand. DNA is a code, and is a redundant code. If you mean that DNA does other things than coding for proteins, I (and IDists in general) will certainly agree. Matzke and co. probably less. But protein coding genes are for coding for proteins. That is quite clear. And each codon in a protein coding gene corresponds to only one AA (or stop information). So, DNA is a redundant code, but not an ambiguous code, IOWs, it is not context dependent. Human languages are redundant and ambiguous. Therefore, DNA is more sinmilar to a programming language than to a human language. But it is symbolic anyway. As far as I’m concerned, there’s very little similarity between DNA and our system of symbolic communication Why do you say that? Look at any protein database site. Here for instance is the nucleotide sequence of the coding exons of the human hemoglobin gene: ATGGGGCTCAGCGACGGGGAATGGCAGTTGGTGCTGAACGTCTGGGGGAAGGTGGAGGCTGACATCCCAGGCCATGGGCAGGAAGTCCTCATCAGGCTCTTTAAGGGTCACCCAGAGACTCTGGAGAAGTTTGACAAGTTCAAGCACCTGAAGTCAGAGGACGAGATGAAGGCGTCTGAGGACTTAAAGAAGCATGGTGCCACCGTGCTCACCGCCCTGGGTGGCATCCTTAAGAAGAAGGGGCATCATG AGGCAGAGATTAAGCCCCTGGCACAGTCGCATGCCACCAAGCACAAGATCCCCGTGAAGTACCTGGAGTTCATCTCGGAATGCATCATCCAGGTTCTGCAGAGCAAGCATCCCGGGGACTTTGGTGCTGATGCCCAGGGGGCCATGAACAAGGCCCTGGAGCTGTTCCGGAAGGACATGGCCTCCAACTACAAGGAGCTGGGCTTCCAGGGCTAG And here is the sequence of the protein in FASTA form: MGLSDGEWQL VLNVWGKVEA DIPGHGQEVL IRLFKGHPET LEKFDKFKHL KSEDEMKASE DLKKHGATVL TALGGILKKK GHHEAEIKPL AQSHATKHKI PVKYLEFISE CIIQVLQSKH PGDFGADAQG AMNKALELFR KDMASNYKEL GFQG Well, the nucleotide sequence is essentially the huamn transcription of the gene sequence, and the FASTA sequence of the protein is a human way of representing the AAs sequence in the protein. The seconf can be absolutely derived from the first by the genetic code. So, humans seem to use symbolic ways of representing nucleotide or AA sequences that are exactly of the same kind as the symbolic sequence of nucleotides in DNA. Where is the difference? When the information about a specific, functional sequence has to be stored for further use, human and cells seem to use the same tools. And, again, the correspondence between nucleotide sequence and AA sequence is completely symbolic, and requires knowledge of the genetic code to be effective. That knowledge, in the cell, is stored in the transcription system, asn specially in the enzymes that couple tRNA to AAs. For humans, a table of the genetic code usually is enough.gpuccio
July 15, 2011
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@Upright BiPed RE: post 141
Doveton, you might want to think about the observed fact that humans did not invent symbol systems or recorded information. We came along later and found it already existed.
I don't follow you point here. Could you clarify that statement for me? What do you mean when you say that mankind did not "invent symbol systems or recorded information"? Who/what did the invention and recording? Thanks!ciphertext
July 15, 2011
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Well, simply put, DNA is not a language; it’s an encryption.
ENCRYPTION: In cryptography, encryption is the process of transforming information using an algorithm to make it unreadable to anyone except those possessing special knowledge, usually referred to as a key. encryption - Encryption is the conversion of data into a form, called a ciphertext, that cannot be easily understood by unauthorized people. Encyption The coding of a clear text message by a transmitting unit so as to prevent unauthorized eavesdropping along the transmission line. encrypt: to put (a message) into code
In addition, DNA does more than make proteins, so by definition it can’t be a code or language since the symbols in DNA do not relate to only one specific object or concept.
2 + 2 = 4 - - - - - You may not want to wade in too deep all at once Doveton. If you want to go through your life thinking that UUU inherently means phenylalanine as a byproduct of physics, despite the unrefuted evidence against it, then by all means, be my guest. I'm certainly not going to try and stop you. Cheers...Upright BiPed
July 15, 2011
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notes: The DNA Enigma - The Ultimate Chicken and Egg Problem - Chris Ashcraft - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5542033/ ,,,the first DNA code of life on earth had to be at least as complex as the current DNA code found in life: Shannon Information - Channel Capacity - Perry Marshall - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5457552/ “Because of Shannon channel capacity that previous (first) codon alphabet had to be at least as complex as the current codon alphabet (DNA code), otherwise transferring the information from the simpler alphabet into the current alphabet would have been mathematically impossible” Donald E. Johnson – Bioinformatics: The Information in Life Deciphering Design in the Genetic Code Excerpt: When researchers calculated the error-minimization capacity of one million randomly generated genetic codes, they discovered that the error-minimization values formed a distribution where the naturally occurring genetic code's capacity occurred outside the distribution. Researchers estimate the existence of 10 possible genetic codes possessing the same type and degree of redundancy as the universal genetic code. All of these codes fall within the error-minimization distribution. This finding means that of the 10 possible genetic codes, few, if any, have an error-minimization capacity that approaches the code found universally in nature. http://www.reasons.org/biology/biochemical-design/fyi-id-dna-deciphering-design-genetic-code As well there was a ‘optimality’ found for the 20 amino acid set used in the 'standard' Genetic code when the set was compared to 1 million randomly generated alternative amino acid sets; Does Life Use a Non-Random Set of Amino Acids? - Jonathan M. - April 2011 Excerpt: The authors compared the coverage of the standard alphabet of 20 amino acids for size, charge, and hydrophobicity with equivalent values calculated for a sample of 1 million alternative sets (each also comprising 20 members) drawn randomly from the pool of 50 plausible prebiotic candidates. The results? The authors noted that: "…the standard alphabet exhibits better coverage (i.e., greater breadth and greater evenness) than any random set for each of size, charge, and hydrophobicity, and for all combinations thereof." http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/04/does_life_use_a_non-random_set045661.html moreover, it is not just one code that must be accounted for: "In the last ten years, at least 20 different natural information codes were discovered in life, each operating to arbitrary conventions (not determined by law or physicality). Examples include protein address codes [Ber08B], acetylation codes [Kni06], RNA codes [Fai07], metabolic codes [Bru07], cytoskeleton codes [Gim08], histone codes [Jen01], and alternative splicing codes [Bar10]. Donald E. Johnson – Programming of Life – pg.51 - 2010 =========== The DNA Code - Solid Scientific Proof Of Intelligent Design - Perry Marshall - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4060532bornagain77
July 15, 2011
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Jammer,
Here’s a website that shows diagrams of both Claude Shannon’s communication model (from The Mathematical Theory of Communication, 1998) and Hubert Yockey’s DNA communication model (from Information Theory, Evolution, and the Origin of Life, 2005). Game, set, match: Upright BiPed.
I've seen similar comparisons. The problem with Yockey's diagram, however, is that DNA has no transmitter or even a message source; DNA IS the message (sort of) in that it's a polymer. Since it's a polymer, the "message" of DNA isn't received anywhere; DNA itself "translates" to proteins, stop marks, etc. So unless you're saying that DNA is a language that DNA itself uses to communicate with itself (which seems a little silly to me, but what do I know), the argument presented above isn't accurate.Doveton
July 15, 2011
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UB,
Doveton, The way our symbol systems work and the symbol system in DNA works are exactly the same. The same discrete objects, the sames use of protocols, the same input output dynamics…all the same. Could you provide me with some research studies demonstrating this? I'd be very interested in reading about the research comparisons. Thanks!
Quite frankly, I’d be happy to hear of a communication system that operates any differently, please, tell us.
Well, simply put, DNA is not a language; it's an encryption. DNA does not "communicate" - it mechanically "translates" to proteins directly, and that translation is accomplished via sequential conversion of the codons to the amino acids making up the protein. The actual mechanical action of the conversion IS the result of DNA, not of the DNA "talking to" anything. In addition, DNA does more than make proteins, so by definition it can't be a code or language since the symbols in DNA do not relate to only one specific object or concept. DNA is a more dynamic structure than our symbolic systems. And, unlike human language, DNA follows no "Power Law" a la Zipf. As far as I'm concerned, there's very little similarity between DNA and our system of symbolic communication, but I'd be interested in reading alternative research on this.Doveton
July 15, 2011
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Hmm... the link didn't work, for whatever reason. Sorry. Let's try again: Is DNA a Code? « Cosmic FingerprintsJammer
July 15, 2011
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Here's a website that shows diagrams of both Claude Shannon's communication model (from The Mathematical Theory of Communication, 1998) and Hubert Yockey's DNA communication model (from Information Theory, Evolution, and the Origin of Life, 2005). Game, set, match: Upright BiPed.Jammer
July 15, 2011
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Doveton, The way our symbol systems work and the symbol system in DNA works are exactly the same. The same discrete objects, the sames use of protocols, the same input output dynamics...all the same. Quite frankly, I'd be happy to hear of a communication system that operates any differently, please, tell us.Upright BiPed
July 15, 2011
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Doveton, you might want to think about the observed fact that humans did not invent symbol systems or recorded information. We came along later and found it already existed. And since it is sold as the product of billions of years of evolutionary advancement, one might ask themselves how did it exist as the basis of life.
My biology classes didn't present the genome as a symbolic system. But let's just say it is for the sake of an argument. Even if true, it doesn't change my point since we humans devised our own unique symbolic system long before we discovered DNA or anything about it and our system doesn't much resemble how DNA works anyway.Doveton
July 15, 2011
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tgpeeler, Doveton, are you by chance related to EL? Just sayin’… later, much later… :-) Directly related? No. I don't think so anyway. Indirectly related? Maybe. My ancestors all hail from the UK, so who knows. I'll take the question as a compliment anyway. Not sure it's as much a compliment to Dr. Liddle however. :)Doveton
July 15, 2011
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Doveton, you might want to think about the observed fact that humans did not invent symbol systems or recorded information. We came along later and found it already existed. And since it is sold as the product of billions of years of evolutionary advancement, one might ask themselves how did it exist as the basis of life.Upright BiPed
July 15, 2011
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Mung,
The “1? is NOT the carbon atom, nor is the one IN the carbon atom. Nor is the ABOUTNESS conveyed by the 0 or 1 IN the carbon atom.
I agree; see above.
And why are you employing symbols?
They are convenient placeholders for human identification. Well, for humans who have been taught how to use them anyway.Doveton
July 15, 2011
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Mung,
Doveton:
What evidence is there for this Wicked Witch of the West, particularly for someone who has never seen the Wizard of Oz?
What evidence is there that there are words in the sky? It’s just smoke, after all.
Well, the evidence is the symbols themselves as confirmed in memory processing within the Hippocampus passed through analysis in the Broca's area.
Why do scientists do science if they have no beliefs about it and no beliefs are required to do it?
One main reason comes to mind - it is a fascinating and intellectually stimulating way to garner understanding about the interesting universe around us.
I understand that this is the claim you’re making, but I don’t find it accurate.
How do you measure the accuracy of a claim?
Why would I measure it when I can merely note evidence to the contrary?
I assigned the designation of course.
Of course you did. And ’1? always means the same thing, doesn’t it?
Absolutely not. Why would it? Does '1' mean the same thing in Sudoku as it does in the formula 1+1=2? I certainly don't think so.
I don’t understand the differentiation you are implying about “information within” an object vs “information about” an object and what difference the distinction makes.
Of course you don’t.
That's what I noted.
Is the “1? within the carbon atom?
Of course not - I assigned a "1" as a designation for the state. The question should be, is the state "within" the carbon atom or is it "about" the carbon atom and what is the distinction?
What “state” is the carbon atom in? Let’s say it’s positively charged, for example. Then the “particles of information” (if that’s what you want to call the measure) would be 1. If the state is negative, it would have a measure of 0. A binary set of states conveying information.
So is it the 0 and the 1 that convey information, or is it the state of the carbon atom that convey information?
The state conveys the information within the atomic system; the 0 and 1 convey the information within my model of that system.
And what is that information about?
Which information?
And where does that “aboutness” come from?
Either the atomic system or the system parameters within the model.
What makes a “1? ABOUT the state of a carbon atom and not about, say, the number 1?
The context created by the system.Doveton
July 15, 2011
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Doveton, are you by chance related to EL? Just sayin'... later, much later... :-)tgpeeler
July 14, 2011
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Good. Well, clearly this conversation is difficult for both of us, but let's see what happens next. I'll look forward to your response on the other thread.Elizabeth Liddle
July 14, 2011
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And yes, I am more than happy to move this conversation back to its other thread.Upright BiPed
July 14, 2011
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Liddle at 123, ” This is absolutely fine. As I said I’d thought we were nearly there. But here you specifically describe the link (the dissociated link) as “a physical object which converts one sequence into the other while they remain separate”” So I wasn’t evading your comments, I had answered them long ago. And when you were suggesting that I was forcing you into “miracles”, I had already answered your question. That text was written on June 17th if I remember correctly, and has been repeated since then. ” But if that “break” can take the form of a “physical object” there is no problem at all.” I described it that way a radioactive half-life ago. Glad you’ve caught up. ” It leaves me curious about your terminology, but that doesn’t necessarily matter.” You shouldn’t be, when I used that term I specifically asked “if I may use that term”. To most people that question itself is a reasonable indication that the term could be a placemat for a better term if one is necessary. You never asked for a clarification. ” But all the more reason for you to read my last post on the other thread and check my criteria. I am now heartened that they may satisfy you” I have yet to return to the other thread, but will do so. It would be unfair to say that I hold out much hope. The last time you tried to change the test, you spoke in terms of reproductive success, and measuring the percentage of fidelity, and probabilities of yadda yadda. All of which is nowhere near the criteria we had set out.Upright BiPed
July 14, 2011
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Okay, Dr Liddle at #121, you then ask:
“why is there a physical break there”?
How does one thing represent something else, if both are the same thing? Are amino acids made from nucleotides? Does a stop sign apply the brakes on your car, or does the driver do that? Is the word APPLE the same thing as the fruit apple? Does the chemical compound that makes up an ant's pheromone inherently mean "attack", or is that meaning the result of a protocol established in the ant's system which recognizes the compound, and is mapped to a certain response? If the binary code 01100001 is encoded on a digital tape, is it converted to the letter "a" by means of a change in state, or does it retain its state, yet become decoded by rules instantiated in the system? - - - - - - - - - - - Why are you asking if there why is there a break between the symbol and the object being symbolized? Recorded representations must go through protocols prior to effect, or they are not symbols. This has been discussed over againUpright BiPed
July 14, 2011
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The "1" is NOT the carbon atom, nor is the one IN the carbon atom. Nor is the ABOUTNESS conveyed by the 0 or 1 IN the carbon atom. And why are you employing symbols?Mung
July 14, 2011
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Doveton:
What evidence is there for this Wicked Witch of the West, particularly for someone who has never seen the Wizard of Oz?
What evidence is there that there are words in the sky? It's just smoke, after all. Why do scientists do science if they have no beliefs about it and no beliefs are required to do it?
I understand that this is the claim you’re making, but I don’t find it accurate.
How do you measure the accuracy of a claim?
I assigned the designation of course.
Of course you did. And '1' always means the same thing, doesn't it?
I don’t understand the differentiation you are implying about “information within” an object vs “information about” an object and what difference the distinction makes.
Of course you don't. Is the "1" within the carbon atom?
What “state” is the carbon atom in? Let’s say it’s positively charged, for example. Then the “particles of information” (if that’s what you want to call the measure) would be 1. If the state is negative, it would have a measure of 0. A binary set of states conveying information.
So is it the 0 and the 1 that convey information, or is it the state of the carbon atom that convey information? And what is that information about? And where does that "aboutness" come from? What makes a "1" ABOUT the state of a carbon atom and not about, say, the number 1?Mung
July 14, 2011
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Lizzie, that is not losing your cool! I've seen far worse. I've been far worse myself! I've posted a couple of responses to some other posts - if you wish to reply to them, please feel free to take as much time as you like.Chris Doyle
July 14, 2011
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Thanks Chris :) Lost my cool, a little there. Will take a short break....Elizabeth Liddle
July 14, 2011
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So close yet so far away… Of course ALL symbols are instantiated in matter/energy. I never said they weren’t. Didn’t you learn in 4th grade math class (Mrs. Pollitt, bless her heart) that there is a difference between a ‘number’ which is abstract and a ‘numeral’ which is a concrete (i.e. written down) representation of that number? I'm quite familiar with that differentiation, yes, however I was responding to your claim about the glaring lack of physics in the definition of symbol. Clearly it is there. If that isn't what you meant, why did write that?
This is the whole point. Even though the symbol (information carrier) is instantiated in a physical substrate, the MESSAGE is separate and apart from the substrate.
I understand that this is the claim you're making, but I don't find it accurate. The symbols conferring the message "type the word "what" on your computer" have substance - we both agree. The message itself is transported to your brain via light (your are, afterall, reading the message on your screen.) Some time in your past you learned (acquired), via demonstration from others, what the words "mean" and thus your brain holds (within the Broca's and Wernicke's areas) the electro-chemical decipher key for now converted electro-chemical symbols. Your brain then translates the message and you have the instruction to type "what". Where's the lack of physics?
To say that since symbols are instantiated in matter means they are a part of physics is just nuts.
Interesting claim, but why do you think that?
I can’t really believe you even said that, almost. What does physics have to do with language?
Everything - from the light reflecting the symbols that stimulate the ocular rods (mostly) and cones (a little) that then convert the symbols to elecro-chemical impulses along the optical nerve to the electro-chemical recombination that occurs with the Broca's neural framework and the chemical exchange that takes place with the Hippocampus to establish pattern memories, etc, etc.
Physics is EXPRESSED in a language for crying out loud, the language called mathematics.
Understanding concepts within physics may require math, but that does not mean that underlying physics of the universe don't occur until we humans can describe them mathematically.
Now as to your question as to how I might determine that matter is acting as a symbol? How would I know that? Is that the question? In other words, how would I detect an agent that created a symbol? Here’s the infallible clue. If there is information there is intelligence. There is mind. Only a mind can freely and purposefully manipulate symbols according to rules so as to encode information in said symbols.
I understand that this is a central claim here. I just don't see that claim well supported by any actual evidence. Let’s say you go outside and look up in the sky at the white fluffy clouds scudding across the sky. You look and you think, natural clouds, natural causes. No problem. Now let’s say you go outside and look up in the sky and see “SURRENDER DOROTHY” written in black capital letters. What do you immediately know? You know that the Wicked Witch of the West has been flying around, that’s what. Why do you know that? Because you see letters (symbols) freely and purposefully arranged according to rules (reason and English) in order to encode a message. That’s how you know. You also know the message is NOT THE SMOKE. The smoke is just the smoke. The message is different from the smoke. Have to disagree. What evidence is there for this Wicked Witch of the West, particularly for someone who has never seen the Wizard of Oz? I do know that it was written for human understanding and specifically for humans who understand English. However, this understanding is purely physical.
I hope this helps.
Yep. Very much so. Thanks again!Doveton
July 14, 2011
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UB,
Just one question: did you assign the meaning “1? to the charged state, or did the carbon atom do that?
For the purposes of this exercise, I envisioned the charge state as having been "assigned" to the atom by environment since that is normally how atoms attain any given state. I merely gave that assigned state a human designation so that I could reference it. As far as the number of particles of information is concerned, since that too is an arbitrary human designation, and as of yet one without a scale, I am awaiting your response regarding what you think the state of the atom is so that I can assign an arbitrary, but relative, measure of the information. Thanks in advance!Doveton
July 14, 2011
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El @ 122 "it is not irrelevant to ask you for the definition of information you are using." Asked and answered, counselor. Many times. But 90 posts into the conversation! ha ha ha good one. :-)tgpeeler
July 14, 2011
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To all those whose recent posts to Elizabeth Liddle reflect frustration and annoyance. Please can I appeal to you to refrain from further expressions of those sentiments: we all get the point, I guarantee it. Especially Lizzie. I sense that the frustrations we often feel towards atheists in general are being focused on her, personally, and that is plainly wrong. Lizzie deserves our utmost respect as a highly worthy opponent and thoroughly decent person. Perspective is a wonderful thing: check out the usual evolutionist blogs and comment sections and be thankful that we're not having to deal with the sort of people you find there instead.Chris Doyle
July 14, 2011
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Doveton @ 106 "Symbols are made up of matter. Ergo, they fall under the science that deals with matter and energy and their interactions. I can’t think of any symbol out there that isn’t made up of matter or energy. How would we perceive such a thing and be able to determine its symbolism? If you can, please describe it. I’d be very interested in reading such a description." So close yet so far away... Of course ALL symbols are instantiated in matter/energy. I never said they weren't. Didn't you learn in 4th grade math class (Mrs. Pollitt, bless her heart) that there is a difference between a 'number' which is abstract and a 'numeral' which is a concrete (i.e. written down) representation of that number? This is the whole point. Even though the symbol (information carrier) is instantiated in a physical substrate, the MESSAGE is separate and apart from the substrate. To say that since symbols are instantiated in matter means they are a part of physics is just nuts. I can't really believe you even said that, almost. What does physics have to do with language? Physics is EXPRESSED in a language for crying out loud, the language called mathematics. Now as to your question as to how I might determine that matter is acting as a symbol? How would I know that? Is that the question? In other words, how would I detect an agent that created a symbol? Here's the infallible clue. If there is information there is intelligence. There is mind. Only a mind can freely and purposefully manipulate symbols according to rules so as to encode information in said symbols. Let's say you go outside and look up in the sky at the white fluffy clouds scudding across the sky. You look and you think, natural clouds, natural causes. No problem. Now let's say you go outside and look up in the sky and see "SURRENDER DOROTHY" written in black capital letters. What do you immediately know? You know that the Wicked Witch of the West has been flying around, that's what. Why do you know that? Because you see letters (symbols) freely and purposefully arranged according to rules (reason and English) in order to encode a message. That's how you know. You also know the message is NOT THE SMOKE. The smoke is just the smoke. The message is different from the smoke. I hope this helps.tgpeeler
July 14, 2011
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