Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

ID and the Science of God: Part I

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In response to an earlier post of mine, DaveScot kindly pointed out this website’s definition of ID. The breadth of the definition invites scepticism: ID is defined as the science of design detection — how to recognize patterns arranged by an intelligent cause for a purpose. But is there really some single concept of ‘intelligence’ that informs designs that are generated by biological, human, and possibly even mechanical means? Why would anyone think such a thing in the first place? Yet, it is precisely this prospect that makes ID intellectually challenging – for both supporters and opponents.

It’s interesting that not everything is claimed to be intelligently designed. This keeps the phrase ‘intelligent design’ from simply collapsing into ‘design’ by implying a distinction between the intelligence and that on which it acts to produce design. So, then, what exactly is this ‘intelligence’ that stands apart from matter? Well, the most obvious answer historically is a deity who exists in at least a semi-transcendent state. But how can you get any scientific mileage from that?

Enter theodicy, which literally means (in Greek) ‘divine justice’. It is now a field much reduced from its late 17th century heyday. Theodicy exists today as a boutique topic in philosophy and theology, where it’s limited to asking how God could allow so much evil and suffering in the world. But originally the question was expressed much more broadly to encompass issues that are nowadays more naturally taken up by economics, engineering and systems science – and the areas of biology influenced by them: How does the deity optimise, given what it’s trying to achieve (i.e. ideas) and what it’s got to work with (i.e. matter)? This broader version moves into ID territory, a point that has not escaped the notice of theologians who nowadays talk about theodicy.

A good case in point is Christopher Southgate’s The Groaning of Creation, a comprehensive work written from a theistic evolutionary standpoint. Southgate is uneasy about concepts like ‘irreducible complexity’ for being a little too clear about how God operates in nature. The problem with such clarity, of course, is that the more we think we know the divine modus operandi, the more God’s allowance of suffering and evil looks deliberate, which seems to put divine action at odds with our moral scruples. One way out – which was the way taken by the original theodicists – is to say that to think like God is to see evil and suffering as serving a higher good, as the deity’s primary concern is with the large scale and the long term.

Now, a devout person might complain that this whole way of thinking about God is blasphemous, since it presumes that we can get into the mind of God – and once we do, we find a deity who is not especially loveable, since God seems quite willing to sacrifice his creatures for some higher design principle. Not surprisingly, religious thinkers complained about theodicy from day one. In the book I flagged in my last post, The Best of All Possible Worlds, Steven Nadler portrays the priest Antoine Arnauld as the critical foil of the two duelling theodicists, Nicole Malebranche and Gottfried von Leibiniz. Against them, Arnauld repeatedly pointed out that it’s blasphemous to suppose that God operates in what humans recognise as a ‘rational’ fashion. So how, then, could theodicy have acquired such significance among self-avowed Christians in the first place (Malebranche was also a priest) and, more interestingly, how could its mode of argumentation have such long-lasting secular effects, basically in any field concerned with optimisation?

The answer goes back to the question on everyone’s mind here: What constitutes evidence of design? We tend to presume that any evidence of design is, at best, indirect evidence for a designer. But this is not how the original theodicists thought about the matter. They thought we could have direct (albeit perhaps inconclusive) evidence of the designer, too. Why? Well, because the Bible says so. In particular, it says that we humans are created in the image and likeness of God. At the very least, this means that our own and God’s beings overlap in some sense. (For Christians, this is most vividly illustrated in the person of Jesus.) The interesting question, then, is to figure out how much of our own being is divine overlap and how much is simply the regrettable consequence of God’s having to work through material reality to embody the divine ideas ‘in’ – or, put more controversially, ‘as’ — us. Theodicy in its original full-blooded sense took this question as its starting point.

There was some enthusiasm for this way of thinking in the late 17th century. Here are four reasons:

(1) The sheer spread of literacy, connected both to the rise of the printing press and the Protestant Reformation (and those two events connected to each other, in terms of who operated the presses), meant that the Bible came to treated increasingly as instructions for living, as often happens today. So, the claim that we are created in the image and likeness of God was read as a mode of personal address: I am so created. This, of course, broke down the Catholic mode of Christian domination, whereby clerical authorities had modulated the biblical message for the situation at hand – e.g. by telling the faithful to treat certain aspects of the Bible as merely ‘symbolic’ or ‘metaphorical’. Theistic evolutionists routinely resort to this strategy today.

(2) On theological grounds, to deny that we are literally created in the image and likeness of God is itself to court heresy. It comes close to admitting an even worse offence, namely, anthropomorphism. In other words, if we presume that, even in sacred scripture, references to our relationship to God are mere projections, then why take the Bible seriously at all? 19th century secularisation was propelled by just this line of thought, but anti-theodicists like Arnauld who refused to venture into God’s mind could be read that way as well – scepticism masquerading as piety. (Kant also ran into this problem.) In contrast, theodicists appeared to read the Bible as the literal yet fallible word of God. There is scope within Christianity for this middle position because of known problems in crafting the Bible, whose human authorship is never denied (unlike, say, the Qur’an). One extreme result of this mentality was Thomas Jefferson’s attempt to edit the Gospels of all ‘superstitious’ elements, just as a Neo-Darwinist (say, UK geneticist Steve Jones) might re-write Origin of Species to reinstate Darwin’s fundamental principles in a firmer evidence base. To be sure, there is still plenty of room for blasphemy, but at least not for atheism!

(3) Within philosophy, theodicists, despite their disagreements, claimed legitimacy from Descartes, whose ‘cogito ergo sum’ proposed an example of human-divine overlap, namely, humanity’s repetition of how the deity establishes its own existence. After all, creation is necessary only because God originally exists apart from matter, and so needs to make its presence felt in the world through matter. (Isn’t that what the creation stories in Genesis are about?) So too with humans, so Descartes seemed to think. The products of our own re-enactment of divine thought patterns are still discussed in philosophy today as ‘a priori knowledge’. The open question is how much of our knowledge falls under this category, since whatever knowledge we acquire from the senses is clearly tied to our animal natures, which God does not share. But of course, the senses do not operate unadorned. Thus, by distinguishing the sensory and non-sensory aspects of our knowledge, we might infer the reliability of our access to the intelligent designer.

(4) There was also what we now call the ‘Scientific Revolution’, whose calling card was the fruitfulness of mechanical models for fathoming the natural world. A striking case in point was Galileo’s re-fashioning of a toy, the telescope, into an instrument of astronomical discovery. This contributed to the sense that our spontaneous displays of invention and ingenuity also reproduced the divine creative process: We make things that open up the world to understanding and control. This mode of thinking would start to kick in the scientific societies formed around the 18th century’s Industrial Revolution. One such influential society in the British Midlands, the ‘Lunar Society’, has been the subject of a recent popular book by Jenny Uglow.

Theodicy gets off the ground against these four background conditions once a specific mental faculty is proposed as triggering the spark of the divine in the human. This faculty was generally known as intellectual intuition – that is, the capacity to anticipate experience in a systematic and rational fashion. (Here’s a definition of intelligence worth defending.) We would now say the capacity to generate virtual realities that happen to correspond to physical reality, the sort of thing computer simulations do all the time, courtesy of their programmers. In the 17th century, people were especially impressed by the prospect of analytic (aka Cartesian) geometry capturing a rational world-order governed by universal laws of mechanical motion. So far, so good. But clearly something went wrong – what?

Tune in for the next instalment…

Comments
Is there any evidence that SETI scientists consider “intelligences” to operate outside of chance and law?
If they do not then how can one tell the difference?Joseph
January 8, 2009
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CJYman: Their expectation is that there is a type of signal that they expect an intelligence to produce that chance and law would not produce. Is there any evidence that SETI scientists consider "intelligences" to operate outside of chance and law? CJYman: The clincher is that ID should be placed in a higher scientific status than SETI since it has yet to produce a false positive and its design detection model is well founded in the mathematics of information theory (CSI and active information). The concepts of CSI and active information are nowhere to be found in the information theory literature. I don't see how that can be considered "well founded".R0b
January 8, 2009
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Sal Gal, There is a new book, well last May, that discusses evolution and intelligence in some of its chapters. I have no idea what it says but I can bet it won't be friendly to ID. Part of the book is available on google books. It is The Deep Structure of Biology, edited by Simon Conway Morris. The subtitle "Is Convergence Sufficiently Ubiquitous to Give a Directional Signal?" In it there is a chapter on plant intelligence. Maybe there is an opportunity here to start a communication with your local flora to tell them there is no such thing as intelligence. I do not want to be facetious but somehow one has to define the construct that is able to process and answer responses from the environment. Granted that there is a whole range from 1) a certain ion appears and this causes a chemical reaction to take place which then results in a movement by a cell or a group of cells to 2) an apple falls off a tree and someone then develops the theory of gravity and the calculus. But just what is that #2. It is just a more complicated #1 or is there something else much different. We may apply the term intelligence to both 1 and 2 but are they really the same, except for the complexity of reactions? Somehow I doubt it. But if you don't think so then maybe it is time to call home.jerry
January 8, 2009
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I just got something on my IPOD. It keeps on repeating "Sal Gal come home." you said "Not everything we sense as real can be physically real in science." How about that. Does that mean science can not explain all phenomena? Like maybe it can not explain all of evolution. You get a lot of arguments over the time here but this is the first that says that intelligence does not exist. Well I have been claiming that for the anti ID crowd for quite some time so I am glad that you confirmed it for me. So as a matter of procedure in the future, maybe we should limit our discussions to those who do think they have intelligence. I guess the anti free will or determinists crowd falls into that classification too. So we should also limit our discussions to those who think they have a free will. Your comments explains a lot things here, namely why the anti ID crowd never seems to give an inch even when the evidence or logic is so against them. They are not capable of such behavior since they are hardwired to say the same thing in a thousand different ways. So to all those out there. ID only wants to talk to people with intelligence and free will. Those of you without intelligence or free will can go to Panda's Thumb. In fact Panda's Thumb is broadcasting a signal now, "anti ID people come home."jerry
January 8, 2009
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Sal Gal SETI says nothing along the lines that the “fingerprint of intelligence” can be detected in a signal That's the stupidest thing I've heard someone pretending to be generally informed in science say in a quite a while. SETI stands for Search for Extra Terrestrial Intelligence. If they don't think they can detect an intelligence what the bloody hell have they been spending money doing for the last 40 years? Like DUH!DaveScot
January 8, 2009
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However, if SETI ever did receive CSI as in the movie "Contact" (although from my understanding sending that type of signal over that distance is practically impossible) then there would be much rejoicing over having received a signal from E.T.CJYman
January 8, 2009
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Sal Gal: "To put that more directly, SETI says nothing along the lines that the “fingerprint of intelligence” can be detected in a signal." Actually, SETI does say that the "fingerprints of intelligence" can be detected in a signal. You have just explained their methodology for doing so. What is really interesting though, is that as far as I understand, their methodology has returned a false positive in the form of quasar signals, however CSI has yet to produce a false positive that can be produced absent previous intelligence (read as "foresight": the ability to envision a future goal which does not yet exist (model future states) and arrive at that specified and complex state by engineering chance and law to accomplish that goal at better than chance performance). Furthermore, you reiterate in your last sentences that SETI does indeed think that in can find "fingerprints of intelligence." You state: "The significance of signals is primarily a matter of SETI scientists’ expectations and the intentions they ascribe to E.T." Their expectation is that there is a type of signal that they expect an intelligence to produce that chance and law would not produce. If this were not the case they would pack their bags and go home. Any intentions they ascribe to E.T. as a basis for expecting a certain type of signal are based on their understanding of how intelligence (however they wish to define it) operates. The clincher is that ID should be placed in a higher scientific status than SETI since it has yet to produce a false positive and its design detection model is well founded in the mathematics of information theory (CSI and active information). We can discuss CSI and active information if you wish. However, just a heads up -- there are at least two areas in which I disagree with Dembski's use of the math involved with CSI. HOwever, these disagreements do not detract from CSI as a reliable indicator of intelligence, IMO these disagreements only serve to better utilize CSI.CJYman
January 8, 2009
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To put that more directly, SETI says nothing along the lines that the "fingerprint of intelligence" can be detected in a signal. The significance of signals is primarily a matter of SETI scientists' expectations and the intentions they ascribe to E.T.Sal Gal
January 8, 2009
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Well, Jerry, here goes. Past attempts to explain that SETI does not do what Dembski has led you to believe it does have gotten folks banninated. I'm including here an excerpt from Ask Dr. Seti: If SETI receivers have to be narrow band, how is intelligence carried in these signals? Also, why do they need to be narrow band? Note that the project depends on assumptions about the nature and the intentions of E.T., and that it is seeking to receive just one bit of information, not >400 bits of CSI.
Let's assume you're an intelligent extraterrestrial, wishing to make your presence known to the inhabitants of a distant and primitive planet (let's say, Earth). You know that the electromagnetic spectrum is a noisy place, and that your intended communications partner is going to have to separate your signal from the background noise. You also know that natural astrophysical radio emitters are inherently broadband. What to do? You could readily produce a signal that's spectrally narrow (your technology is good at that). This would clearly stand out as being artificial. It would also make it easier for the distant Earthlings to intercept, since the narrower they make their receiver, the more of the cosmic background noise they exclude, and hence the higher their received signal to noise ratio. Well, the narrowest possible signal is a pure CW (continuous wave) carrier, so that's what you send. That's all very well and good, but communications theory suggests that a pure CW carrier contains no intelligence. But wait -- is that really true? It can be argued that the reception of such a narrow signal is in fact a one-bit message, conveying the information "here I am." Run that message through your Universal Translator, and out comes the more meaningful proclamation "you are not alone." So, information has been exchanged, in vanishingly narrow bandwidth.
The one bit of information is "special" because it gives a "yes" to the question "Is there a signal like that we would send if we knew where to send it?" There is no CSI in the signal SETI hopes to detect initially. If you read the rest of the response, you'll see that further study and interpretation of signals in an "interesting" region of space would depend on assumptions that E.T. is trying to talk to us in a way E.T. would expect us to understand.Sal Gal
January 8, 2009
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dgosse, I'm not sure what you're driving at, but I'll say that a great many concepts that serve us well enough in everyday life do not have much, if any, scientific utility. When we talk about "intelligence," there is always a more specific term we could use in its place. (Adding together scores of verbal and quantitative performance on the SATs does not give "intelligence," if you follow my drift. I know a woman who scored 200, the minimum, on the math SAT, and 800, the maximum, on the verbal SAT. She reads a book each day, and has fabulous knowledge of English and French literature. Is she a genius or an idiot? Perhaps both.) I am no more concerned about the amorphous character of "intelligence" than I am that of "love." Does love cause things to happen? Well, in an ordinary sense, it does, but I would hate to see a scientist treat it as a non-material cause of empirically observable events. I mean, are we going to elaborate a theory in which love is a non-material source of complex specified vibes? Science requires greater rigor of definition than does everyday conversation. Not everything we sense as real can be physically real in science.Sal Gal
January 8, 2009
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Hi Sal Gal #94 There is no empirical observation of “intelligence” without prior operational definition. In fact, the operational definitions are commonly quite different from one another, and abstract constructs referred to as intelligence do not necessarily have much to do with one another. Don't you find this just the teensiest bit troubling?dgosse
January 7, 2009
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jerry asks,
Tell me what I have used that is not part of modern science or considered likely by modern science.
Intelligence. If you want to see the best scientific efforts at giving some useful meaning to the term, go to psychology and ethology. Review my first comment, and feel free to respond now, if you like. I first learned of the scientific status of intelligence as a hypothetical construct when I was an experimental psychology student, 35 years ago. It is treated as an abstraction. Psychometrists do not reify intelligence. They do not offer it as a real physical entity in explanations of empirical observations. There is no empirical observation of "intelligence" without prior operational definition. In fact, the operational definitions are commonly quite different from one another, and abstract constructs referred to as intelligence do not necessarily have much to do with one another. Throughout my adult life, I have heard people refer to intelligence as something with physical reality. No doubt this is due to the ubiquity of "intelligence" tests. No one engaged in a science of "intelligence" treats intelligence as physically real. That would be closely analogous to treating life as physically real. Vitalism is defunct -- I hope. The SETI project does not search for intelligence. More on that in a moment.Sal Gal
January 7, 2009
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Hi Earvin #91 I’m a bit surprised that someone who confesses to be “nearly ignorant of probability theory” is so confident in his/her assertions regarding problems of probability. Put it down to hubris and popular science writing. 8^> I really am incompetent to discuss probability theory on anything more than the "popular" level, but I have investigated the options. I was a committed mateialist a few years ago, but that commitment I once had was based upon ignorance. I once thought I was informed, but I had only been given one side of the story. When I did look into the foundation of my belief I discoverd, much to my dismay, how little there is to the foundation. My first reaction was anger that so much had been withheld from me, but I have since concluded that the same ignorance permeates everyone's outlook. We are conditioned not to inquire too deeply, not with reasoned arguments, but by the mocking and belittling of those who dissent. I did it myself. I have enjoyed our discussion too. The best part of these discussions is that they challenge me to review and organize what little knowledge I have attained and present it in a coherent fashion. Thankyoudgosse
January 7, 2009
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----"I have stated in all sincerity that different sciences may serve different values. I prefer for science to explain material events strictly in terms of antecedent material events, inasmuch as I believe that serves the ends of prediction and control of the material world. You and the masses may see more value in a science that places non-material intelligence in a distinguished position." Methods are a means to an end, not an end in themselves. Their job is to serve the cause of truth and not the other way around. If the "masses" understand that and the academy doesn't, then the masses have the intellectual edge.StephenB
January 7, 2009
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degasse, Earlier you said,
I may be mistaken here, not being a mathematition and being nearly ignorant of probability theory...
I'm a bit surprised that someone who confesses to be "nearly ignorant of probability theory" is so confident in his/her assertions regarding problems of probability. I'm glad to have engaged in the conversation, however, and wish you the best.Earvin Johnson
January 7, 2009
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Freelurker #86 Should economics, engineering, and systems science be taking deities or other non-material intelligences into consideration? Good question! I think this might be something to keep in mind, given the constant references to "fine tuning" of the universe. When we find otherwise orthodox materialist cosmologists scratching their heads and referring to "someone" fiddling with the physical constants that underpin the entire universe the reason may be that "someone" has fiddled with the numbers. In most cases, this fiddle was built in from the outset and will not change (perhaps that's why they call them constants?) so disciplines such as engineering, metalurgy, physics, chemistry, etc. may safely ignore the metaphysical immplications of "fine tunig" for all practical purposes. Systems science may be another story, are we considering physical systems such as computer design or ventilation systems, or are we considering systems designed to influence/predict/modify biological entities? In purely mechanical systems we are using pureley mechanical (material) phenomena that are, again, governed by the physical constants; but when we move to biology we move, incrementally towards entities who "appear" (I would say "do") to act independent of the physical constants that guide non-biological entities - "free will". Plants - not much; Animals - a sliding scale from little to some; Humans - nearly always. Economics, which is an effort to understand and predict the totality of human (willful) interaction should, at the very least, have an anthropology that is accurate. One could almost say that economics is a "moral" (in the broad sense) enterprise. Given the proclivity of humans to act contrary to the received wisdom of modern anthropology, and the failure of materialism to account for humanities (apparent?) free will, then postulating some (let us say extension) to the materialist paradigm may be in order. If you are a confirmed naturalist you might want to posit a new dimension of "intensionality" which some creatures, primarily humans, are able to utilize in addition to the the four dimensions of length, width, breadth, and time. Of course, you couldn't see it, weigh it, or measure it, any more than you may see, measure, or weigh spirit, but I'm sure we could invent a plausible explanation for the phenomena that safely avoids the implication of deity.dgosse
January 7, 2009
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Hi Earvin Like any analogy, it is imperfect, and likely doesn't have much in common than the necessary specified complexity. Living organisms use a variety of complex "words" and whether the initial word is "evolution" or "geography" or the even smaller sequence, "red" or "mean", it must, at some point, form a sentence (to keep the analogy alive). Let's look at the four examples "evolution geography red mean" will not make a sentence without randomly generating more "words" and some ordering them for grammatical structure. But words and sentences do not a story of life make. We may have some of the parts, but contra reductionist orthodoxy, the parts do not explain the whole. The next part I am borrowing from Wiker and Witt "A Meaningful World" - good book - I read it through twice in one sitting and once more since. Prof. Dawkins has an ingenious little program using the same analogy of word and sentence building, called Weasel, to demonstrate how random evolution can produce meaningful structure. There are several well-known flaws in the program and I will not trouble you with the details, the critiques are readily available on the web. Wiker and Witt came at the demonstration from the opposite direction. Prof. Dawkins uses a computer to generate random letters and spaces toto produce a phrase from Shakespeare, "METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL". Ingenious, yes? But what does it mean? What is like a weasel? Who is speaking? To whom is he speaking? Even Dawkins felt the need to contextualize the sentence he chose by giving some background information from the play, Hamlet, from which he lifted the sentence. The complexity and pecification works in two directions. It isn't enough to produce a word, or a phrase, or even an entire sentence. Without a larger context the sentence is a phrase without a funtion and functionality is required for evolution. This is the fundamental flaw of reductionism, the synthesis of amino acids was considered a breakthrough for origin of life studies until they realized that amino acids, by themselves, do not a protein make. They must be assembled into a sentence with proper syntax, which itself must be fit into a paragraph, a scene, and, ultimately, the whole play.dgosse
January 7, 2009
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Jerry, One of the many problems with your position is that is impossible to implement in the context of real, working science. You use v vague times like "most" and "some" but most scientists work on v specific systems and problems. at what point do they invoke design? For example, let's say that you are trying to figure out the evolutionary pathway of blood clotting. You are not sure how the 3 irreducible components of the pathway came together initially, as all the animals you've screened so far have at least those 3. do you now say that the intelligent agent put those 3 together, and leave it at that? or do you continue screening more animals, including some even more basal lineages, to see if they lack one or more of them? and then look for homologues to the genes that code for those factors to see if they may have arisen through exaptaion? if all that fails, do you then invoke an intelligent agent? and if you do, the problem then becomes exactly what FUller is talking about, providing positive evidence of that agent's activities. one of the most basic tenets of science is that evidence against one hypothesis is not evidence for an alternative hypothesis. each hypothesis has to be tested against a null. and so far ID has failed to provide any sort of positive evidence for itself, and can't until it starts talking about the nature of the designer.Khan
January 7, 2009
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dgosse @70 and Upright Biped @73: The problem with your analogy is that the argument assumes its own conclusion. The Darwinists maintain that evolution is not directed in any way, so in order for the formation-of-a-word analogy to hold water, you can't specify the word you're looking for. The question should be, how long would it take to form any nine-letter word. The answer is, not too long. Whether that word will be "useful" or not depends on the prevailing environment and other circumstances. A deck of cards randomly shuffled will result in one of (52!)possible orders, so we can say that each and every order is "practically impossible." It's not until we impute meaning to the order (i.e., we expect a certain conclusion) that low probability comes into play.Earvin Johnson
January 7, 2009
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Steve Fuller, Should economics, engineering, and systems science be taking deities or other non-material intelligences into consideration? Or is methodological naturalism good enough for these fields but not good enough for biology?Freelurker
January 7, 2009
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I'm posting this comment to ask if anyone can take up the challenge from a blogger @: http://recursed.blogspot.com/2009/01/test-your-knowledge-of-information.html He is basically claiming he can refute IDist claims that evolution cannot create new information. He says using the Kolmogorov model proves evolution can in fact produce new information. I've been lurking on this site for weeks and find the quality of the posting to be superb (if that means anything comin' from a layman). It would be great to see the regulars here take up the challenge and post a formal rebuttal on UD.Oramus
January 7, 2009
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Sal Gal, I have no interest in developing a new science and of the people here am not a major supporter of the science of ID. It is not that I care less about ID as a science but it is of little consequence to me whether it is successful or not. I wish it well but do not find it necessary for the success of ID. It that a contradiction. No. I support ID in a big way in the sense that I support the proposition that it is possible that many organisms within life have an intelligent origin. The science that this proposition lies in is evolutionary biology, not Intelligent Design. If I bring the tools of science into play to support the proposition that organisms have an intelligent origin am I operating in the area of Intelligent Design and design detection or am I operating within the framework of evolutionary biology. I believe it is the latter. Why should evolutionary biology not include the possibility that some species origins may have an intelligent basis. To arbitrarily restrict it to naturalistic origins is just that, arbitrariness and not logical. Especially since nearly everyone in evolutionary biology believes that within the near future someone will create a new organism within the lab. So I am interested in showing that intelligence is a viable mechanism for new species. Not necessarily all but definitely some. Do I need the tools of design detection for this? No. I can use logic, some tools of science and the elimination of alternatives. As of the moment there exist no sub theory of evolutionary biology that can explain the origin of novel complex capabilities except for intelligent input. Has an intelligence existed in the pass that could have done this. We cannot identify any particular one but modern science hypothesized that many may exist. My son went to Cornell which is the home of Carl Sagin who firmly believed that there existed millions of other intelligences in the universe and this belief spawned a unique area of science called SETI. So modern science accepts intelligence existing in the universe other than our own and one of these could be the origin of intelligently designed gene pools. Another possibility is based on the popular belief that there is an infinitely large number of other universes and there is no restriction that intelligences from these other universes could not interfere in the other universes. So here we have a near infinite pool of possible intelligences based on modern science that could be the source of the intelligence required for an intelligently designed gene pool. Is it possible that one of these intelligences that are accepted by modern science could go by the nick name of GOD. Anyway since there is no non intelligent naturalistic mechanism to explain how many life forms could have come into existence, one must consider a mechanism that could explain them, namely intelligences. Nothing I have hypothesized is outside of modern science and does not invoke the science of design detection thought it is not inconsistent with it. So the possibility of existing intelligences along with the lack of an alternative hypothesis leads one to consider that there may have been gene pools with intelligent origins to be highly likely. Is this a spoof? Tell me what I have used that is not part of modern science or considered likely by modern science. The longer that scientists fail to provide a mechanism for the origin of novel complex capabilities the more likely is that an intelligent origin is likely for the organisms with these capabilities. Just as background. I firmly believed that Darwinian processes explained all of life till about 9 years ago when I started to investigate it. I have no dog or horse in the race of whether the explanation for all of life's origin is due to Darwinian processes or not. It was not important. But after investigating it, I became convinced that there is no evidence to support Darwinian processes for everything. I believe any honest person would come to the same conclusion and anyone who defends Darwinian processes for every life form is dishonest or ill informed. I am a science junkie and am interested in the philosophy of science, the history of science, have an educational background in physics and mathematics and have several video courses on science from the Teaching Company. Some are quite sophisticated and am currently watching on called the Darwinian Revolution. So if you attribute some agenda to my comments you are wrong. I am just after the truth. If it appeared Darwinian processes were the answer I would push for it. In fact I irk a lot of people here by proclaiming that Darwinian processes explain most of life on the planet but not all. Many here do not want to give Darwin any credit at all. Darwin deserves lots of credit but it is limited. Darwin was an arrogant fool who pushed his theory way beyond what it could explain and egotistically resisted any criticism that his ideas did not explain everything.jerry
January 6, 2009
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#79 Sal Gal I have stated in all sincerity that different sciences may serve different values. I prefer for science to explain material events strictly in terms of antecedent material events, inasmuch as I believe that serves the ends of prediction and control of the material world. You and the masses may see more value in a science that places non-material intelligence in a distinguished position. In, for example, the study of the properties of iron, the search for material causes of material events is entirely proper. Were I to suggest that it is not the heat of the furnace that causes iron to melt at 1811 K but little invisible devils that tickle it until it becomes gelatinous, you would, I hope, quite properly inform me that my belief was unscientific. If, however, we are investigating something else, the archaeological remains in Greece for example, and you were to insist, based upon your "preference" for material explanations, that the material phenomena we call the Parthenon can be fully explained as the result of erosion by wind and rain, I would then feel perfectly justified in pointing out that such undirected material causes are insufficient for the job at hand. When we study biology I think we are in the same boat. The discoveries of the last half century have revealed that life is something that exhibits the "appearance" of design. When biologists must "constantly remind themselves" that what they are observing is not designed then perhaps it really is designed. If so, then their "preference for material explanations" is no longer science and will, in fact, lead them away from any possibility of true knowledge. As for who the designer is, and his purpose for making what he has made, the artifact may provide us with some clues, or there may exist some literature that provides the necessary answers. It matters not, knowledge about the designer and his purposes are not a prerequisite for the presumption of design.dgosse
January 6, 2009
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Steve, you have done a heroic job in defending your thesis against what must appear to be a concerted effort to chip away at your formulations. I am glad that you are not too thin skinned to enter into this dialogue and challenge our assumptions. Everyone’s assumptions should be challenged, even ours. Heaven forbid that we should come to take ourselves as seriously as the Darwinists do. So, I welcome you and I hope that you will not sour on us just because some of us, perhaps most of us, see things differently. Perhaps, with further dialogue, we will surprise ourselves and come to a meeting of the minds. For all I know, ID technology may someday go beyond the design inference and advance to a level that reflects a deeper understanding of the designer and his attributes. Indeed, some scientists have already concluded that, by simply observing God’s handiwork, we can infer not only his intelligence but also his wisdom. We have hints of that already. The Catholic Church, during its canonization process, calls on medical science to help determine whether seemingly miraculous healings attributed to the intervention of a saint are really miraculous. Still, I can't imagine how ID could ever detect the designer’s identity unless the designer makes another guest appearance. His last visit did not go so well. Meanwhile, you wrote: ..."it should be perfectly obvious why a social constructivist might be attracted to intelligent design. It goes back to the nature of intelligence, which historically starts with theism, moves through deism and idealism, and ends up with constructivism. All of these movements are about world-making, each one slightly more secular and less absolute. But all are committed to a strong sense of intelligence, agency and purpose. The metaphysical continuity is pretty transparent, but it’s not more easily seen because of the mixed political affiliations of these positions. But I can assure you, for example, that while I’m a social constructivist who happens to be a leftist, there are also plenty of conservative social constructivists (esp. in the social phenomenology tradition, e.g. Alfred Schutz, Peter Berger, etc.)." It’s not a conservative or liberal thing. A social construct, or a product of social construction, is a concept or practice which may appear to be natural and obvious to those who accept it, but in reality is an invention or artifact of a particular culture or society. Thus, by that standard, reality, or in this case, design, is not to be found in natural laws or as manifestations of a divine will but rather as the by products of human choices. That rules out a great many things, including God’s revelation in Scripture, and, more to the point, God’s revelation in nature. Under the circumstances, design would be a social construct, which means it would have no reality outside human interaction. On the other hand, ID says that design does indeed transcend social interaction because it is real in nature, and, equally important, it was already there to be perceived before social interaction ever took place. So, yes, I have a hard time understanding why a social constructivist would be attracted to a theory that is incompatible with his world view.StephenB
January 6, 2009
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jerry, Racehorses are off and running, and your old warhorses snort fiercely in the gate. You are trying to make me into an adversary of ID when I have in fact said repeatedly that formulation of a science in which ID has a place is feasible. I am opposed to all efforts to make our present science into an ideological smorgasbord. Glopping non-materialistic explanations onto the materialistic superstructure of mainstream science is intellectually bogus. Feel free -- you are in America, aren't you? -- to develop a new science. I have stated in all sincerity that different sciences may serve different values. I prefer for science to explain material events strictly in terms of antecedent material events, inasmuch as I believe that serves the ends of prediction and control of the material world. You and the masses may see more value in a science that places non-material intelligence in a distinguished position. I cannot say that you would be categorically wrong in developing such a science, but I will say that your science would not serve prediction and control as materialistic science does. Personally, I believe that religion, philosophy, and the arts serve humanity better than any empirical science could, and that is a big part of why I choose to keep science a workhorse in blinders. In my day-to-day life, I do not wear blinders, and what I see around me is people reduced to sad little cogs in a technocratic machine. No "renewal" of science will cure this insidious malady. We have wonderful spiritual guides, philosophers, artists, musicians, and writers gaining little access to masses of people addicted to consumer electronics and pop entertainment. The overvaluation of science and the undervaluation of the humanities in public education concerns me much more than the specific philosophy of science. Putting the process of science in its place as social belief formation, and not a Divine Road to Truth, is of vital importance. It is possible for a social group to make its Truth an assumption in its science, but there is no way to obtain Truth by way of empirical science. A science cannot prove the truth of its initial assumptions. I get the feeling that you do not want coexisting sciences serving different values, but that you seek cultural domination with a science that jibes with what you hold to be True. In any free society, people will set out with different initial beliefs, and will develop incommensurable belief systems. I do not think it is necessary for public education to homogenize the citizenry. If you and others can develop a non-materialistic science that amounts to something more than a pundit claiming to have spurred my workhorse to a victory at the Derby, then I will support giving parents the choice to have their children taught non-materialistic science in the public schools.Sal Gal
January 6, 2009
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...the main point I would stress here is that if (or when!) ID defeats the Darwinists on scientific grounds, nothing will have been resolved on the moral and political front
Prof Fuller, I am a lurker on UD and rarely post anything, but have posted on your thread and have been fairly stern in my posts (less than personally flattering I am sure). This is only because I saw a threat from you regarding relaxing a specific tenant of ID: we cannot assume the origin of design. More than anything I believe this is scientifically appropriate based on the material evidence. I also freely admit that I hope it to be a socio-political check valve against power. In other words, it would be refreshing (personal opinion here) to limit any one group from claiming ownership to whatever degree that is possible. It is what it is; knowledge to be held by anyone who recognizes it as such. Will abuse be attempted gain? Sure. Regarding the quote of yours I posted above: 1) What makes you so certain? If nothing will have changed, then nothing can explain the resistance exhibited (it certainly isn’t about the science). 2) If the institution of science has been deliberately mis-used to support a dogmatic worldview for decades on end, why should anyone in ID seek to replace that dogma by yet another dogmatic worldview? If ID proponents are truthful when they say materialism is a religion of its own (and I believe it is) then why would a Western view (hopefully matured by what has been learned over the past four or five hundred years in culture, politics, and religion) not indicate that freedom from dogma is altogether better than institutionalized dogma, even your own? 3) Why on Earth are you concerned about guiding a resolution on the “moral and political front”? Since the ultimate meaning of Design will likely always be beyond our understanding based on its physical properties, then would it not be better to allow that interpretation to be held by the Individual, and not the institution? Should we react to an institutionalized misuse of our trust by trusting nothing of ourselves? 4) Why not simply replace what was taken, and leave it at that?Upright BiPed
January 6, 2009
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Jerry, I have written two books defending ID from the hegemony of Darwinism in biology. I agreed to participate as a witness in the Dover trial, fully realizing that it would win me no friends from at least on one side, if not both. (And I was right!) This is not mental gymnastics for me. It’s serious. But that doesn’t make me a camp follower. Strange as it may sound, I am really seeking the truth here, but you can’t do that if you’re not willing to push the boundaries, and draw on hidden sources of strength, which come from philosophy and theology, as well as science. Like a lot of you, the more I hear Darwinists defend themselves, the more I think they’re in retreat. But they can take their time because ID is not up to that much these days. After some initial bold positive moves by the likes of Dembski and Behe – and Phillip Johnson – I sense that ID is simply waging a war of attrition against Darwinism, i.e. eroding people’s confidence in Darwinism without doing much positive in return. And it may succeed in that strategy but the result may be just a general scepticism and even relativism about science, since you don’t have enough of a theory. This is why I stress the need for developing a theory of intelligence that explains nature’s intelligent design. In any case, I’m not finished posting about theodicy. But theodicy was actually an attempt to articulate why we see design in nature and how it could have been produced as a divine intelligence. I’m not saying that Leibniz or Malebranche got it all figured out 300 years ago but they at least had a sense of the scope of the project and strategies for addressing it. Today’s ID could use some help in these areas. (Finally, I note that people here seem to like bashing ‘materialism’, where I think the old Dover term ‘naturalism’ is the fairer target for ID. In a few days I hope to review here a new book that actually launches a materialist critique against intelligent design.)Steve Fuller
January 6, 2009
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Steve Fuller, I am at a lost because how can we here expect to understand all the nuances of the discussion you propose. You may be trying to chisel a sculpture and all we have here are hammers. We are woefully ill prepared and with little skills. Our over all purpose of pursuing ID is to banish the materialist way of thinking. It explains part of our universe but like Darwin the materialist have extrapolated their narrow view to encompass all. If they were vanquished then the discussion you propose would make more sense. We would be back at the impasse you said that Nadler lays out in his book and ID would be a distant memory as we try to solve bigger problems. Unless you think somehow in order to vanquish the materialists we have to solve the impasse of theodicy first or God's purpose as revealed in his design. I am not sure where you think the discussion should go. Our instincts here says to trivialize the science of the materialists and then go from there once their scientific ideas are in the dust bin. But are you saying that we should pursue this ultimate goal first? Let me try to summarize because I am confused. Say our main goal is to correct a dangerous and poorly thought out world view. This world view is based on science. But the world view commits a fallacy and only has limited information and then extrapolates wrongly from this limited information to the all encompassing world view. The world view is powerful because it explains much of what we witness in nature. We however see the fallacy and use ID to counter act their false extrapolation. At the present we are shouted down and not heard by many. Our instincts is to keep slugging it out with logic till the fallacy is exposed. But then you say our strategy is faulty and we should try something else which includes such things as theodicy and an attempt to get at what is behind the design in nature. What am I/we missing here? What are we really trying to do? It is a little disconcerting since our image of you is that you are a materialist and not a believer in God or ID and that this is all an experiment in mental gymnastics. You are a sociologist and this might just be an experiment for you but for us it is real. As an example, I was once on a cruise that visited many old religious sites in the Mediterranean and there was a professor of religion on the cruise giving background on some of the sites we were visiting. I asked her how many of the academics in the religious departments in universities actually were religious and believed in God. She said not many and that they looked upon their field as many academics do with a curiosity and viewed their work no more than an intellectual activity. So call me skeptical of what is happening here. I find it interesting but I do not know how much of it is related to establishing ID and exposing the fallacies of materialist thinking.jerry
January 6, 2009
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Clive: "This statement is based on authority .." Were you referring to my statement about me not being an expert? "The moderators will permit anyone in the world to comment here if they behave" I can understand the need to boot people off for misbehaving but currently it appears that UD moderators prefer to apply censorship in anticipation of a transgression. My posts to UD have to get moderator approval, I have never been rude or abusive, it all happened because I backed up someone elses request for clarification of the definition of a word in the context it was being used - something I would do (and have done) to a Darwinist in the same circumstances. This behavior from UD moderators just gives the impression that they are more interested in controlling information and loading the debate than actually engaging with their critics. "So if you do not feel competent to criticize" As I said, I am not a Biologist, I'm a computer scientist. I regard myself as competent to critisize in the areas where I have expertise and not in the areas I don't. This doesn't mean I won't debate on issues that I don't have a higher degree in, I just won't claim any expertise.Laminar
January 6, 2009
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Clive: "Genetic Algorithms, or any other useful thing, doesn’t mean that what inspired it was useful or true." Quite corect, but going back to my point, do you agree or disagree with my objection to William J. Murrays claim about the MET having never predicted or produced anything useful? As for Eugenics, I was referring to the idea that human characteristics were passed down through the generations and that some of these characteristics could be controlled by regulating how select humans breed. It is certainly true that Galton first fomalised these ideas and termed it Eugenics but the underlying concepts go back beyond Plato and can bee seen throuought history in ideas like the divine right of kings and inherited nobility. In many ways Darwins theory just formalised a lot of things that were already known about selective breeding but the important bit as far as the modern scientific theory goes was his realisation that selection might occur naturally - which is why his thesis contains the words 'Evolution by Natural Selection'. He also mentions how selective breeding could be applied to humans and how abhorrant he thought that would be. I do find the whole idea of critisizing a scientific theory because of how it may have been misunderstood and abused interesting. If, just to pick an arbirtary and slightly silly example, a group of people felt so inspired by Newtons ideas on gravity that they sought to dispose of a minority group by tossing them off high cliffs, should we therefore argue that Newtons equations should be abandoned and replaced with some new, and different ones? (BTW, I'm not implying any parity between the MET and Newtonian physics)Laminar
January 6, 2009
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