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Is Atheism Rationally Justifiable?

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First, I’d like to thank Mr. Arrington for granting me posting privileges.  I consider it quite an honor, and I hope this post (and any future posts) warrants this trust.

Second, the following is an argument I think will help us to focus on a fundamental issue that lies behind ever so many of the debates here at Uncommon Descent, and elsewhere.  That is, is the sort of implicit or even explicit atheism that is so often built in on the ground floor of a “scientific” mindset truly rationally justifiable? Such cannot be assumed, it needs to be shown.

I’ll begin by defining some terms for the sake of this argument:

Definition of God (for the purpose of this thread): First cause, prime mover, root of being, objective source of human purpose (final cause) and resulting morality, source of free will, mind, consciousness; omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent inasmuch as principles of logic allow; an interventionist as necessary to facilitate movement towards final cause and also inasmuch as logical principles are not violated; source of logic — “reason itself.” (I am not talking in particular about any specifically defined religious interpretation of god, such as the Chrstian or Islamic God.)

Definition: Weak, or negative atheism is the lack of any belief that a god exists, and the position that a god probably doesn’t exist, and is not the positive belief that gods do not exist (strong atheism), and is not agnosticism (the lack of belief that god either does or does not exist and the further view that there is a lack of sufficient probability either way).  Strong atheism is the belief that no god or gods exist at all.

Definition: A worldview or mindset is rationally justified when it answers adequately to the facts of the real world as we experience or observe it, makes good sense and fits together logically, is simple but not simplistic, and honestly faces the issues and difficulties that all worldviews face.

Definition: Intellectual dishonesty occurs when (1) one deliberately mischaracterizes their position or view in order to avoid having to logically defend their actual views; and/or (2) when someone is arguing, or making statements against a position while remaining willfully ignorant about that position, and/or (3) when someone categorically and/or pejoratively dismisses all existent and/or potential evidence in favor of a conclusion they claim to be neutral about, whether they are familiar with that evidence or not.

These will be important as we consider:

Evidence in favor of God:  The following is a brief summary of the evidence that typically leads many people to make a general finding that a god (as described above) exists, even if variantly interpreted or culturally contextualized:

(1)
Anecdotal evidence for the apparently intelligently ordered anomalous, miraculous (defying expected natural processes and probabilities) events attributed to god, such as signs, supernatural events (e.g. Fatima, Guadeloupe, Paul’s Damascus Road Experience), or answers to prayers to god;

(2)
Testimonial evidence (first-hand accounts) of experience of such phenomena, including interactions with a god-like being or accounts of god-like interventions;  Also, the testimony of religious adherents of various specific gods can be counted as evidence of the god premised in this argument in the manner that various cultures can vary widely in their description of certain phenomena or experiences, and come up with widely variant “explanations”; what is interesting as evidence here, though, is the widespread crediting of similar kinds of phenomena and experience to a “god” of some sort (which might be the case of blind or ignorant people touching different parts of an elephant and thus describing “what the elephant is” in various ways). Such testimonial evidence can be counted in favor of the premise here, but cannot be held against it where it varies, because it is not testimony that such a god doesn’t exist.

(3)
The various Cosmological and Ontological Arguments for the existence of god;

(4)  The Strong Anthropic (or Fine Tuning) argument and other evidences for design of our world and of life in it;

(5) The empirical, scientific evidence assembled in support of the design arguments in #4 (such as recently persuaded Antony Flew — formerly the world’s leading philosophical atheist — that there is a god);

(6) The Moral arguments for the existence of god.

(7) Empirical and testimonial evidence of phenomena closely correlated to the existence of a god as described above, such as the survival of consciousness after death, and the existence of an afterlife realm; the evidence for interactions with correlated entities such as angels and demons (which seem to act to influence our free will towards or away from our human purpose), etc., gathered by various serious and scientific investigations into what is often referred to as the “paranormal”, including mediumship studies dating back to William Crooke and ongoing through the work at Pear Labs and the Scole Experiment, including consciousness-survival research published in the Lancet. While indirect, this evidence tends to support the proposition that god exists.

While the various arguments listed above have been subjected to counter-arguments and rebuttals of varying strengths and weaknesses across the ages, one must not lose sight that while there is much evidence of all sorts (as listed above) in favor of the existence of god; there is zero empirical evidence (to my knowledge) or and little in the way of rational argument that no such god exists.  In other words, decreasing the value of the arguments and evidence for god does not increase the value of the position that there is no god; it can only increase the reasonableness of the “weak atheist” (there isn’t enough evidence) or an agnostic position.

The commonly seen rebuttals to these argument are simply attempting to show weaknesses in or alternatives to the arguments themselves so that such arguments cannot be taken as demonstratively convincing (that god exists); such counter-arguments as a rule do not actually make the case that god (as described above) in fact does not exist.

The argument against weak atheism:

The above shows us that, ironically, strong atheism is a weak position. That is probably why atheism advocates seldom defend it in informed company. So, we must first focus on the “stronger” atheist position, the one they defend in public: “weak atheism,” generally described as absence of belief in god or gods. I will argue that it too is far weaker than is commonly recognized.

I know of no positive arguments for the strong “there is no god” position, other than the argument from evil which has been addressed by Boethius, Adams  and Platinga. Aside from that, there are only rebuttals/reactions to various “there is a god” arguments. This exemplifies how rebutting an argument does not eliminate it as evidence, it only offers an alternative perspective that one  can evaluate along with the original argument.   Depending on the strength of the rebuttal or alternative explanation, that particular positive evidence for god may be decreased in value, but there is no concurrent increase in the value of an argument against the existence of god (as described above).

If a “weak atheist” claims to “lack belief” because there is “no evidence for god,” he or she is necessarily being intellectually dishonest, because we certainly aren’t privy to all potential or available evidence. Are such atheists claiming to be omniscient? If not, then, a more modest and reasonable point would be that they are not aware of evidence for god. However, given what we have already seen, such “weak atheists” cannot genuinely claim to not know of “any” evidence for god after having perused any of the above evidence.  That is to say, there is evidence for god, just, they don’t accept it. But incredulity or hyper-skepticism on your part does not equate to “no evidence” on my part. Testimony from otherwise credible sources is not made “less credible” simply because the testimony is about something the listener personally finds to be in-credible; it is not intellectually honest to discredit the credibility of testimony only on the basis of the subject matter being debated.

Also, strong atheists often only refer to themselves as weak atheists because they have realized that the strong atheist position is an assertion they cannot support in informed company.  They do this to provide cover for their real view, which is an obvious form of intellectual dishonesty.  One can often discern when this is going on when the person ridicules belief in god or makes categorical dismissals about evidence they have never even seen; they believe there is no god, and so assume there can be no valid evidence for god, and advocate for that position rhetorically via ridicule.

Even if the “weak atheist” is not aware of any compelling evidence for god, he or she must know that we humans are quite limited in what we know, and may often be unaware of mistakes in what we think we know. That means that any categorical claim a “weak” atheist makes about the available evidence he or she is not privy to — that it is not credible or convincing — is again intellectually dishonest because you cannot justifiably make a categorical claim about something you have no knowledge of.

So, if we have a weak atheist who is aware of the existence of the above evidence and agrees that there might be more evidence they are not privy to; and who does not categorically assert problems with the evidence they have not yet seen; and who does not categorically dismiss the available evidence as “non-evidence” due to hyper-skeptical bias but rather states that the available evidence they have seen is not compelling towards a conclusion that god exists; then one must ask the following:

In the face of such overwhelming amounts of evidence — thousands of years of testimony and anecdotal stories; many serious arguments based on credible empirical evidence and apparently necessary logical premises and inferences; and, the complete lack of any generally successful attempt to make a sound argument that god in fact does not exist — one must ask: how can any intellectually honest person come to any conclusion other than that on the balance of the evidence, god probably exists,  even if god is poorly and diversely defined, and even if the experience of god is open to various interpretations and even to misunderstanding?

As an analogy: even if one has never personally experienced “love”; in the face of thousands of years of testimony and anecdotal stories that love exists, and empirical evidence supporting that certain physical states correspond to assertions of experiences of love, would it be intellectually honest to “lack belief” that love exists, or would it be intellectually honest to hold the view that even though one doesn’t experience love (or using the same argument, color, joy, dreams, etc.), that love probably exists – even if people are widely disparate in their explanation, description, or presentation of what love is?

Another analogy: because witnesses disagree in their description of a criminal suspect in a crime, or disagree about the particulars of the crime they witnessed, this doesn’t mean there is no criminal at all.  Depending on the testimony and evidence, one may hold that it is likely that a crime occurred, and so it is likely that a criminal exists, but that the arguments, testimony and evidence are  not enough reach a finding of “guilty” for any particular suspect.

As far as I am aware of there is no anecdotal or testimonial evidence that god does not exist (because lack of experience of a thing isn’t evidence the thing doesn’t exist), very little in the way of logical argument towards that conclusion, and there is a vast array of logical, anecdotal, testimonial and empirical evidence that god (at least as generally described above) does exist. Because a billion people did not witness a crime, and only a handful did, doesn’t tilt the scales in favor of no crime having been committed at all; imagine now a billion people that report witnessing a crime, and handful that did not, and you have something more comparable to the state of evidence concerning the existence of god.

Even if one doesn’t find that evidence compelling for for a final conclusion that god exists,  when one weighs the balance of the evidence for and against god, one should be willing to at least consider whether it is more probable that god (as described above) exists than that god does not exist.  Problematically (for the atheist), the view that it is more likely that god exists than not is not any sort of an atheistic position.

The argument against strong atheism:

Strong atheism is defined as the assertion that no god or gods exist whatsoever.

First, it is obvious that strong atheism cannot be logically supported, simply because it is impossible to prove (not in the absolute sense, but in the “sufficient evidence” sense). There may be evidence and good argument that certain gods, or kinds of gods, do not exist; but there is certainly no generally accepted evidence or successful argument that no significant, meaningful god or gods whatsoever exist, including the one as defined for this thread.

Instead of trying to actually support their own claim, strong atheists usually attempt to shift the burden of proof onto theists by essentially asking the theists to prove the atheist position wrong, implying or asserting that atheism must be held true by default.  That is, such try to argue that they have nothing to argue and can sit comfortably on their view as a default. However, that is not so; every worldview of consequence has a duty to show that it is factually adequate, coherent and explains reality powerfully and simply.  Strong atheism is not a default position; it is a positive assertion that no god or gods exist.  The default position is always “I don’t know” or true agnosticism.

Strong atheism is a sweeping, categorical assertion that something does not exist. As such, It has the job of proving a universal negative.  Perhaps this could be accomplished by showing the converse positive claim to be self-contradictory, and readers advocating strong atheism are invited to make their case based upon the definition of God at the top of this post.

Also, however unlikely it may seem to an atheist, it might be true that a god of some sort exists outside of the circle of what she or he knows or what the collective of atheists actually know. After all, we all know full well that “to err is human.” So, since the atheist could be mistaken or ignorant of the key fact or argument that would be decisive,  the strong atheist position unjustifiably excludes a potentially true explanation from consideration.  What is the rationally useful point of a metaphysical position that excludes a potentially true explanation from consideration?  Especially when it requires asserting an unsupportable universal negative? What, then, does strong atheism bring to the table of debate other than the potential for intractable error and denial of potential truth for the sake of a sweeping, unsupportable, universally negative assertion?

Conclusion: atheism is an untenable position for any intellectually honest, rational, and informed person. The belief that god (as described above, which is supported by the listed evidence) does not exist, or that it isn’t more likely that god exists than not, can only be a position based on ignorance of the available evidence and argument for god, or a hyper-skeptical, intellectually dishonest, ideologically biased, a priori dismissal of all of the evidence for the existence of god.

Comments
Graham Greatness is of course not the same as greater.... nice try. Funny you should ask about happiness because just like love and beauty your precious materialistic science that explains everything and is the only truth and reality can not measure any of it. But lets get back to the original question you've been avoiding. What is greater? Intelligence or non-intelligence?Andre
January 10, 2013
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Andre: So your units of 'greatness' are Joules or some measure of energy ? Is that right ? My point was, how do you measure 'greatness' ? Say I give someone a present, and they are pleased. Is the effect (happiness) measurable ? In Joules ?Graham2
January 10, 2013
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Correction Graham 2 Yes indeed the effect does seem to appear “greater” but is in fact not because part of the cause was the time and energy used to setup the falling domino’s in the first place. So in this instance much more energy was spent on the cause than what was spent on the effect. What I’m trying to show you is that an effect can never* be greater than its cause as for the meaning of greater here goes…. greater comparative of great Adjective Of an extent, amount, or intensity considerably above the normal or average. Adverb Excellently; very well. Synonyms major – larger Hope that helps!Andre
January 10, 2013
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LarTanner And here is a fantastic read on why machines will never be what you might hope them to be. http://www.abc.net.au/science/slab/allen/story.htm "There are roughly 10 billion neurones in a typical brain, and each neurone is, on average, connected to 1000 others. We still have very little idea of how this network of cells forms a cognitive mind, so the task of emulating it is extremely difficult. No one knows if it is even possible. "Andre
January 10, 2013
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Graham 2 Yes indeed the effect does seem to appear "greater" but is in fact not because part of the cause was the time and energy used to setup the falling domino's in the first place. So in this instance much more energy was spent on the cause than what was spent on the effect. What I'm trying to show you is that an effect will be greater than its cause as for the meaning of greater here goes.... greater comparative of great Adjective Of an extent, amount, or intensity considerably above the normal or average. Adverb Excellently; very well. Synonyms major - larger Hope that helps!Andre
January 10, 2013
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You insist that there is something a machine cannot do. If you tell me precisely what it is a machine cannot do, then I can always make a machine which will do just that!
LOL! Really? Where to start. Make a perpetual motion machine. Make a machine that can make a machine that is not a machine. Make a machine that travels into the past and makes a machine that sucks up all available energy. and on and on and onMung
January 10, 2013
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LT said:
It is important to me. It’s something I value because hearing such a case articulated plainly and directly helped me immensely. It’s also something I value for my children.
You've only reiterated that it is important to you to help others. That you were helped in the past by something similar doesn't answer why you help; it only answers why you choose this form of help. Why should you help others at all? I'm not being facetious; you implied that you are deeply reflective about your views. If so, then please explain to me why you want to help people. Can you explain it in terms of your philosphy? Elvis4708 said:
My answer is this; I do not want to take spirituality from people, but I want to dismantle religions from all sorts of political power and to support reason. I think the deistic way is the right way to go in these endeavors. If the ordinary man was convinced that there perhaps is a god, but that this god doesn´t care about him, then religions would collapse. That´s good enough for me!
Why do you want to accomplish the collapse of religion?William J Murray
January 10, 2013
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LarTanner:
That Hebrew versus OT distinction is hardly my own invention, and the the interpretive lenses I’m bringing in include those of Second-Temple era Judaism (Judaisms, really) and early Christianity (Christianities, really). There’s more things in the heaven and earth of that history than you’ve dreamt of.
Well, multiple Christianities in the midst of multiple Judaisms. Seems that they fight right in with the times. But why do you call the Judaisms "Judaisms" and the Christianities "Christianities" if there were no identifiable attributes that they shared, and by what basis did you decide that any particular Christianity was not just one amongst other Judaisms? And, might I ask you, how was it that Judaism (singular) was protected by the Roman empire and Christianity (singular) was not? How on earth did they decide who to throw to the lions!? The Romans just don't seem to have had the same problems you have. Go figure.Mung
January 10, 2013
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LarTanner:
This statement tells me you’re in way over your head and don’t know it. Have you ever done any serious textual study–not of biblical texts, but of any texts–in different languages?
Does analysis of blog posts count? But really, what an absurd milestone. I have at best a very rudimentary familiarity with Hebrew and only slightly more in Greek. Serious textual study in the original languages? Hah. So I, as do most people, have to rely upon scholars. Not just in Hebrew and Greek, but in almost every other aspect of life. And in many cases we have to rely upon popularizations of scholars. So freaking what!? And for any particular scholar you chose to trot out I could probably trot out a scholar who has a contrary view. And if he had exposure to serious textual study in the original languages and so did you, do you really think the two of you would just auto-magically agree? Dream on. It is the wise amongst us who will readily admit that we do not know as much as we ought. It will motivate us to strive to more knowledge. None of which makes any sense given atheism.Mung
January 10, 2013
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@Elvis I'm not intending to be rude here, but you’d be wise to read up on deism before you suggest a deistic God could never form the basis of a religion. I’ll refer you too this website. http://moderndeism.com/index.html You’re right though; divine providence is a necessary condition for the existence of monotheism, that being said, it’s certainly not a necessary condition for the existence of a religion.KRock
January 10, 2013
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F/N: BTW, notice how mathematics is actually independent of material entities, i.e. it is a wholly mental construct, that happens to anchor down to experienced reality through the sheer logical necessity [that word again!] of the consequences of something being so in this world? Favourite case, one objection to the Young wave theory of interference was that a small spherical object would have a dot of light in the middle of its shadow. That was imagined absurd, a disproof by contradiction. Until someone checked. You guessed it, yup, the dot is there all right! The "unreasonable" effectiveness of maths strikes again, and of course I have already held forth on how the unity and power of that math points to the mind behind it all . . . who was it was mocking math as a compass needle pointing to the ultimate mathematician again? KFkairosfocus
January 10, 2013
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BA and BA77: Thanks a lot! KFkairosfocus
January 10, 2013
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Box: Sorry, that got somewhat technical. The possible worlds talk is one way of bringing out what is contingent and what is necessary. A possible world is logically possible, needs not be actual. A possible being exists in at least one possible world. In your case you exist in the actual one. A necessary being candidate, is conceived of as necessary but may not be real. But if such a being exists in one possible world, it exists in all possible worlds. That is another way of saying that the block to a necessary being candidate is that it is impossible or it is misconceived. The truth in 2 + 3 = 5 is in the relevant sense a being, and it is such that in no possible world will this truth fail. Not even an empty one that has no material objects in it. For, we can construct numbers out of sets that start with the empty set {} and build up from there as collections, equated to numbers. Then we can define operations and off we go. More than that, this did not begin at any time, nor can it cease. It is an eternal necessary truth, mind you a bit trivial! (BTW, there is an argument to God from the eternality of truth, and ending up as viewing such as eternally residing in the mind of god.) By contrast 2 + 3 = 4 cannot hold in any possible world. it is impossible. The point about god is that such a being would by definition be eternal, and that means not having external necessary factors that have to be "on" for it to exist. It is a serious candidate necessary being and so the objector to god has the choice of showing impossible or facing the implications of a possible necessary being. You may want to work your way through here on. This and this have a discussion that may also be helpful. Failing that, get out a box of matches and start playing around with them to understand necessity and sufficiency of causal factors. Then work out the logic of a suggested being that has no necessary causal factors. (I am sorry about how one word has to do more than one job in close proximity.) KFkairosfocus
January 10, 2013
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LT: This is not a matter of playing definitional games. It is inherent to the theistic concept of god that god is a necessary being, and to the philosophical one as a result. You can debate all you want about another concept that does not embrace being the eternal -- as in no beginning, no end -- root of being, but it will not be the same. Maybe, as a pause, I need to discuss on causal factors much as I do in the NCSTS unit on building a worldview. Start with a fire. The necessary and sufficient causal conditions include: heat, fuel, oxidiser and heat-evolving chain reaction. Block any one and no fire begins or can be sustained. This is the fire tetrahedron, just ask a fire fighter. The fire is a contingent being, dependent on the four factors, each of which is necessary, all four being together sufficient. If you doubt, halon fire extinguishers interfere with the chain rxn. That is we have some on/off factors that must be on and a sufficient cluster, or no fire. Fires can begin, are sustained and can end. Now, ask what of a different class of being that has no external necessary causal factors? It does not go on or off, it is eternal, and it is present in all possible worlds. The truth in 2 + 3 = 5 is a simple case in point. There is no possible world that this does not hold in. If a world is possible this holds and it holds in the actual world. Now, consider a candidate: 2 + 3 = 4. There is no possible world in which it holds. It is impossible on pain of patent absurdity. That is where the issue of god lies. If inherently a candidate necessary being and possible, then actual. Conceptually, as eternal root of being, obviously a candidate. So, the issue is, possible or impossible? The older atheist argument on evils said, self-contradictory so impossible. That has collapsed as discussed. The logical positivists tied the route of ruling meaningless that which is not subject to empirical tests of verification or is not analytic, in crude terms. The various forms of the verification or verifiability principle then proceeded to cut its own throat. As to the connexion between god and the universe, it is the obvious one: god is creator; the ground and ultimate cause of its being. You seem to miss out the whole point of personhood too, persons are first causes, self-moved actuators of chains of consequences. Persons act by their power of choice as the start point for action. The eternal god would be the ultimate case in point. That may be a problem for a chance plus necessity materialist view but that is a view that then runs into all sorts of problems because of its attempt to extract persons with knowing, warranting, reasoning consciously aware minds from matter, even brain matter. As, this exchange between Crick and Johnson shows:
Sir Francis Crick is on record, in his 1994 The Astonishing Hypothesis: . . . that "You", your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behaviour of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules. As Lewis Carroll's Alice might have phrased: "You're nothing but a pack of neurons." This hypothesis is so alien to the ideas of most people today that it can truly be called astonishing. Philip Johnson has replied that Sir Francis should have therefore been willing to preface his works thusly: "I, Francis Crick, my opinions and my science, and even the thoughts expressed in this book, consist of nothing more than the behavior of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules." Johnson then acidly commented: “[[t]he plausibility of materialistic determinism requires that an implicit exception be made for the theorist.” [[Reason in the Balance, 1995.]
See the problem? KFkairosfocus
January 10, 2013
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KF if you will allow me to try to answer Box: The materialistic conjecture of an infinity of universes to 'explain away' the fine tuning of this one also insures, through the ontological argument, the 100% probability of the existence of God:
God Is Not Dead Yet – William Lane Craig – Page 4 The ontological argument. Anselm’s famous argument has been reformulated and defended by Alvin Plantinga, Robert Maydole, Brian Leftow, and others. God, Anselm observes, is by definition the greatest being conceivable. If you could conceive of anything greater than God, then that would be God. Thus, God is the greatest conceivable being, a maximally great being. So what would such a being be like? He would be all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good, and he would exist in every logically possible world. But then we can argue: 1. It is possible that a maximally great being (God) exists. 2. If it is possible that a maximally great being exists, then a maximally great being exists in some possible world. 3. If a maximally great being exists in some possible world, then it exists in every possible world. 4. If a maximally great being exists in every possible world, then it exists in the actual world. 5. Therefore, a maximally great being exists in the actual world. 6. Therefore, a maximally great being exists. 7. Therefore, God exists. Now it might be a surprise to learn that steps 2–7 of this argument are relatively uncontroversial. Most philosophers would agree that if God’s existence is even possible, then he must exist. So the whole question is: Is God’s existence possible? The atheist has to maintain that it’s impossible that God exists. He has to say that the concept of God is incoherent, like the concept of a married bachelor or a round square. But the problem is that the concept of God just doesn’t appear to be incoherent in that way. The idea of a being which is all-powerful, all knowing, and all-good in every possible world seems perfectly coherent. And so long as God’s existence is even possible, it follows that God must exist. http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2008/july/13.22.html?start=4
Where the has gained purchase is in the materialist/atheist appeal to the multiverse (infinite possible worlds) to 'explain away' the extreme fine tuning of this universe, the materialist/atheist, without realizing it, ends up conceding the necessary premise to the ontological argument and thus guarantees sucess of the argument and the 100% probability of God's existence! I like the concluding comment about the ontological argument from the following Dr. Plantinga video:
"God then is the Being that couldn't possibly not exit." Ontological Argument – Dr. Plantinga (3:50 minute mark) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCXvVcWFrGQ Is God a Necessary Being? (Alvin Plantinga) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndmnIs2gMzI
This following video deals with many of the technical objections that atheist/materialist have tried to raise to the ontological argument:
The Ontological Argument (The Introduction) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQPRqHZRP68
And as weird as it may sound, this following video refines the Ontological argument into a proof that, because of the characteristic of ‘maximally great love’, God must exist in more than one person:
The Ontological Argument for the Triune God - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGVYXog8NUg
Verse and Music:
Psalm 115:2-3 Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is now their God? But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased. Casting Crowns - "Glorious Day (Living He Loved Me)" - Live http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqrqPGt11bA
bornagain77
January 10, 2013
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Kairosfocus, I’m an admirer of your summarizations of atheistic problems - e.g. post 332 is extremely to the point. Unfortunately I do not understand all of them.
Kairosfocus (329) “It is a well known result that if a being is a candidate necessary being and is possible, it will be actual. That is because, such a being, if possible, exists in at least one possible world, but if necessity is indeed essential to its nature, it will be actual in all possible worlds. Just like 2 + 3 = 5 is like that.
Can you elucidate your thesis? Why must a ‘possible candidate necessary being’ necessarily be actual in ‘at least one possible world’? I’m at a loss here. What do you mean with 'possible worlds'? Are you referring to the multiverse?Box
January 10, 2013
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LarTanner: “If the connection is necessary, then God’s choice to create is a necessary consequence of a necessarily existing being. . . . But if the connection is contingent, then what explains or accounts for it? Certainly not something wholly necessary, for the reason given above.” You seem to have bedazzled yourself with language and in the process created a false dilemma. God is necessary. The universe is contingent. The universe exists because God chose to create it Your argument rests on a subtle equivocation on the word “necessary.” Yes, the connection between God and the universe is necessary in the sense that the universe could not exist unless it was created by God. But “necessary connection” and “necessary existence” are wholly separate concepts that you have tried to make equivalent. At bottom you have committed a category error. To say that a being exists necessarily is to make an ontological statement. To say that one being is necessarily connected to another being is to make a statement about the logic of cause and effect. A necessary being can create a contingent being if it is possible for the necessary being to have chosen not to create the contingent being. The contingent being’s existence is accounted for as a consequence of an act of the necessary being’s will. Thus, we see that the contingent being is still contingent even though -- if the contingent being in fact begins to exist -- the connection between the contingent being and the necessary being is necessary.Barry Arrington
January 10, 2013
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p.s re 325 Early Christianity - "For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures For some word fun - An Analysis of the Pre-Pauline Creed in 1 Corinthians 15:1-11 - http://carm.org/analysis-pre-pauline-creed-1-corinthians-151-11 Also - what or why do you think scriptures, theologies etc developed after 516 BCE have anything to do with my position? What is not useful and significant of information arriving on planet Earth that is proven to come from beyond space and time and material or philosophical causes? May I say also your hermeneutical is one reason for you position and sadly like most if not all of the "christian" churches unable to hold correct doctrine while thinking they do - big other story and not meant to intrude here. Example: The "Temple" 1st - 2nd ARE NOT PHYSICAL ultimately, but are type and shadow of that made without hands - eternal as Abraham stated no matter how you contrive the words.alan
January 10, 2013
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F/N: Re, at 305, as a FYI:
the Hebrew Scriptures of Judaism are entirely different from the Christian Old Testament
Discounting the apocryphals (viewed as deuterocanonical by Roman Catholics post Trent . . . ), the Heb Tanakh and the OT are the same, but organised differently. The Talmud is different but it is post the split between church and synagogue across C1. (Let us not forget that, as Josephus notes, the head of the Jerusalem church by the 60's, James, was generally known as James the Just.) The understanding my vary in parts, esp on Isa 53, but that is a 2,000 year old debate that started among Jews on the two sides of the question of Jesus of Nazareth as the prophesied messiah. Just a FYI to bring a bit of balance, this is not a scripture debating forum. (Which is why I am willing to go along with "god" in this thread to denote some version or other of the god of the philosophers.) KFkairosfocus
January 10, 2013
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LT 325 - "This statement tells me you’re in way over your head and don’t know it." OK - like I said its still the information and I do have a fair amount of exposure to many tools and schools of biblical information along with 40 years of just about daily "looking into these things" - most if not all versions, Interlinear, Hebrew text, lexicons concordance, dictionaries commentary - Christian and Jewish and hermeneutical approaches etc., but I'll take you seriously and ask you, being knowledgable of thing I'm not aware of, but important enough for you to conclude what your have and count on, then for example tell me, and not many can, what Daniel 9:25 (using any text you like) means. Is it exact, correct and what does it target exactly in the future and then the nature and weight of that information. thanksalan
January 10, 2013
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But, KF, defining God as a necessary being doesn't solve all your problems! If God is a necessary being, then what is God's relationship to the universe, which exists contingently? In other words, are God and the universe connected necessarily or contingently? It must be one or the other. There is no middle ground. If the connection is necessary, then God's choice to create is a necessary consequence of a necessarily existing being. That makes the existence of the universe necessary and not contingent. In turn, this contradicts the assumption that the universe exists contingently because, as you know, anything that follows necessarily from that which is necessary must also be necessary. So the connection between a necessary being and his universe cannot be necessary. It must be contingent. But if the connection is contingent, then what explains or accounts for it? Certainly not something wholly necessary, for the reason given above. So either the connection between God and the universe has no explanation or else the connection is explained in terms of some other contingent fact. In the first case, you are stuck with a brute contingency. In the second case your universe must be either brute or contingent, and the same problem recycles. Either way, we inevitably end up with some fact that is brutely contingent. It follows, then, that pure, unresolved, and brute contingency is inescapable if there is any contingency at all. It is not only impossible to account for the contingent in terms of the necessary, but impossible to account for the contingent at all. Our explanation of the universe must, in the end, bottom out in pure brute contingent fact. I must say that this is not my own working out of the matter, but I do not recall the source and am trying to replay the argument from old notes. Nevertheless, the word "improbable" still seems the most prudent descriptor.LarTanner
January 10, 2013
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LT: Another conceptual problem:
My atheism views natural forces, objects, and “laws” (so to speak) as sufficient to understand reality and explain it.
Here's your first problem: the cosmos we inhabit is credibly contingent, it is not a necessary being. For instance, it has a beginning [think, big bang rooted in Hubble expansion and things like the evident age of white dwarfs etc . . . they are simply cooling off . . . ], which immediately implies there are enabling causal factors that must be "on" for the cosmos we inhabit to be possible. Similarly, by E = m*c^2, we see that matter and energy are contingent also, i.e. they can be turned one into the other. That is what leads to the situation where something beyond our cosmos must exist as a necessary being without such external enabling factors. (This is part of the reason why there was such an attachment to the steady state theory in cosmology, as it would have left us with an eternal cosmos, but that got put on ice with the discovery of the microwave background in the 60's.) Subsequently, there have been attempts of various sorts to suggest oscillating universes, branes and whatnot, but the bottomline is, in light of what we have observational evidence for, contingency. Switch over to metaphysical speculations -- that is what too much cosmology is these days -- and all options perforce must be on teh table on an equal footing. You also run into further troubles, as you now need to account for the credibility of the knowing mind on your materialistic, physicalist view. The forces of survival in an East African savannah are simply not relevant to the problem of grounding warrant, reasoning and so forth, as has been repeatedly pointed out in this thread above, on many reasons. Indeed, such materialism is seriously arguably self referentially incoherent. Materialism cannot credibly ground our mindedness, knowing and reasoning. (Computers are NOT reasoning, they are simply executing patterns of processes built into them and coded in from without. They will just as happily switch their transistors to do rubbish as to do sound processes, indeed that is a big part of the headache of debugging.) And, the materialistic picture runs into further difficulties grounding morality. Start with the case of it being wrong to kidnap, torture and murder a young child. Show us, beyond might and manipulation make 'right' how a materialist view can ground this sort of reality of our being under moral government. An evolutionary materialist view may be culturally comfortable, given the dominance of today's scientism in our educated and chattering classes, but that is not at all the same as that it is well founded. KFkairosfocus
January 10, 2013
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Andre @278: The dominos. I presume the 'cause' is the initial push, and the 'effect' is the fall of the dominos. Which is greater ? I havent a clue. What does 'greater' mean ? If there are many dominos, then the chain-effect appears to be 'greater' than the cause, but I still dont know what 'greater' means. Could you explain your take on all this ?Graham2
January 10, 2013
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Andre, "that's not science" "a machine does not have a conscience." I didn't realize I was speaking with the arbiter of science. Classic. Nevertheless, I'll refer you to von Neumann's famous quote, which bears out true more and more over time:
You insist that there is something a machine cannot do. If you tell me precisely what it is a machine cannot do, then I can always make a machine which will do just that!
I actually have been to that best schools site. Horrible, horrible stuff. A physical pain to read.LarTanner
January 10, 2013
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LT: Sorry, but that is what is wrong:
[LT:] This is incorrect: [KF:} your atheism…implies that god…is IMPOSSIBLE {LT:] Improbable, not impossible.
Not so. It is an essential part of the nature of god, as a concept and candidate being, that god would be the necessary being who is the root of reality. It is a well known result that if a being is a candidate necessary being and is possible, it will be actual. That is because, such a being, if possible, exists in at least one possible world, but if necessity is indeed essential to its nature, it will be actual in all possible worlds. Just like 2 + 3 = 5 is like that. Thee is no possible world in which the truth so expressed will not hold. If instead 2 + 3 = 4 were the candidate, it is dismissed not on being improbable but impossible, there is no possible world in which this will hold. Atheism is not left to argue that god is merely improbable [then dismissed], as is commonly done -- rhetorically (you cite a particularly notoriously ill-thought through source . . . ) -- but to find the concept impossible. Indeed, that is what used to be commonly argued by putting up the deductive problem of evil. But, post Plantinga's free will defense, that has collapsed. (And even before that there were serious questions on the right to argue in terms of good and evil, absent a warrant on worldview premises that grounds such objectively. Borrowing a concept from the culture that rests on other worldview foundations is not good enough at this level.) You can try to argue instead that god would not be a necessary being, but that would not be what is meant by god. These are examples of the sort of unacknowledged metaphysical price that commitment to atheism extracts. KFkairosfocus
January 10, 2013
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LarTanner, you're joking right, that's not science, a machine does not have a conscience , thus it can not wilfully mislead anyone or anything, no wonder you're struggling with the issue, you somehow view as as mechanistic of sort. Here is a good read on seeing past Darwin.... It's worth it mate!!! http://www.thebestschools.org/bestschoolsblog/2012/04/27/seeing-past-darwin-i-machine-metaphor/Andre
January 10, 2013
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Dear KRock, I have no intentions whatsoever to build a new religion. This is a hopeless project as a deistic god never can form the basis of religion. Divine providence is a necessary condition for the existence of monotheism and a deistic god can not provide that. You don´t pray, you don´t look for divine signals around you, you don´t go to the church/mosque/synagouge, you don´t pay the congregation fees etc if you don´t think that your god listens to you. If the god doesn´t care about you, you don´t care about the god.Elvis4708
January 10, 2013
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@Elvis4708 "Now to your question; Why am I doing this? My answer is this; I do not want to take spirituality from people, but I want to dismantle religions from all sorts of political power and to support reason. I think the deistic way is the right way to go in these endeavors. If the ordinary man was convinced that there perhaps is a god, but that this god doesn´t care about him, then religions would collapse. That´s good enough for me!" So let me get this straight, you don't want to take spirituality away from people, so long as these people don't adhere to a religion in which their God cares about each person individually, right? You also welcome the collapse of organized religions but at the same time, you want to build one based on a deistic God. That's one incredibly "reasonable" answer you’ve come up with.KRock
January 10, 2013
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alan@323,
the information is still there regardless of what you call it
This statement tells me you're in way over your head and don't know it. Have you ever done any serious textual study--not of biblical texts, but of any texts--in different languages? If so, I don't know you you could possibly say such a thing. That Hebrew versus OT distinction is hardly my own invention, and the the interpretive lenses I'm bringing in include those of Second-Temple era Judaism (Judaisms, really) and early Christianity (Christianities, really). There's more things in the heaven and earth of that history than you've dreamt of.LarTanner
January 10, 2013
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Sorry - #323 refs. #305alan
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