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Is Atheism Rationally Justifiable?

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First, I’d like to thank Mr. Arrington for granting me posting privileges.  I consider it quite an honor, and I hope this post (and any future posts) warrants this trust.

Second, the following is an argument I think will help us to focus on a fundamental issue that lies behind ever so many of the debates here at Uncommon Descent, and elsewhere.  That is, is the sort of implicit or even explicit atheism that is so often built in on the ground floor of a “scientific” mindset truly rationally justifiable? Such cannot be assumed, it needs to be shown.

I’ll begin by defining some terms for the sake of this argument:

Definition of God (for the purpose of this thread): First cause, prime mover, root of being, objective source of human purpose (final cause) and resulting morality, source of free will, mind, consciousness; omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent inasmuch as principles of logic allow; an interventionist as necessary to facilitate movement towards final cause and also inasmuch as logical principles are not violated; source of logic — “reason itself.” (I am not talking in particular about any specifically defined religious interpretation of god, such as the Chrstian or Islamic God.)

Definition: Weak, or negative atheism is the lack of any belief that a god exists, and the position that a god probably doesn’t exist, and is not the positive belief that gods do not exist (strong atheism), and is not agnosticism (the lack of belief that god either does or does not exist and the further view that there is a lack of sufficient probability either way).  Strong atheism is the belief that no god or gods exist at all.

Definition: A worldview or mindset is rationally justified when it answers adequately to the facts of the real world as we experience or observe it, makes good sense and fits together logically, is simple but not simplistic, and honestly faces the issues and difficulties that all worldviews face.

Definition: Intellectual dishonesty occurs when (1) one deliberately mischaracterizes their position or view in order to avoid having to logically defend their actual views; and/or (2) when someone is arguing, or making statements against a position while remaining willfully ignorant about that position, and/or (3) when someone categorically and/or pejoratively dismisses all existent and/or potential evidence in favor of a conclusion they claim to be neutral about, whether they are familiar with that evidence or not.

These will be important as we consider:

Evidence in favor of God:  The following is a brief summary of the evidence that typically leads many people to make a general finding that a god (as described above) exists, even if variantly interpreted or culturally contextualized:

(1)
Anecdotal evidence for the apparently intelligently ordered anomalous, miraculous (defying expected natural processes and probabilities) events attributed to god, such as signs, supernatural events (e.g. Fatima, Guadeloupe, Paul’s Damascus Road Experience), or answers to prayers to god;

(2)
Testimonial evidence (first-hand accounts) of experience of such phenomena, including interactions with a god-like being or accounts of god-like interventions;  Also, the testimony of religious adherents of various specific gods can be counted as evidence of the god premised in this argument in the manner that various cultures can vary widely in their description of certain phenomena or experiences, and come up with widely variant “explanations”; what is interesting as evidence here, though, is the widespread crediting of similar kinds of phenomena and experience to a “god” of some sort (which might be the case of blind or ignorant people touching different parts of an elephant and thus describing “what the elephant is” in various ways). Such testimonial evidence can be counted in favor of the premise here, but cannot be held against it where it varies, because it is not testimony that such a god doesn’t exist.

(3)
The various Cosmological and Ontological Arguments for the existence of god;

(4)  The Strong Anthropic (or Fine Tuning) argument and other evidences for design of our world and of life in it;

(5) The empirical, scientific evidence assembled in support of the design arguments in #4 (such as recently persuaded Antony Flew — formerly the world’s leading philosophical atheist — that there is a god);

(6) The Moral arguments for the existence of god.

(7) Empirical and testimonial evidence of phenomena closely correlated to the existence of a god as described above, such as the survival of consciousness after death, and the existence of an afterlife realm; the evidence for interactions with correlated entities such as angels and demons (which seem to act to influence our free will towards or away from our human purpose), etc., gathered by various serious and scientific investigations into what is often referred to as the “paranormal”, including mediumship studies dating back to William Crooke and ongoing through the work at Pear Labs and the Scole Experiment, including consciousness-survival research published in the Lancet. While indirect, this evidence tends to support the proposition that god exists.

While the various arguments listed above have been subjected to counter-arguments and rebuttals of varying strengths and weaknesses across the ages, one must not lose sight that while there is much evidence of all sorts (as listed above) in favor of the existence of god; there is zero empirical evidence (to my knowledge) or and little in the way of rational argument that no such god exists.  In other words, decreasing the value of the arguments and evidence for god does not increase the value of the position that there is no god; it can only increase the reasonableness of the “weak atheist” (there isn’t enough evidence) or an agnostic position.

The commonly seen rebuttals to these argument are simply attempting to show weaknesses in or alternatives to the arguments themselves so that such arguments cannot be taken as demonstratively convincing (that god exists); such counter-arguments as a rule do not actually make the case that god (as described above) in fact does not exist.

The argument against weak atheism:

The above shows us that, ironically, strong atheism is a weak position. That is probably why atheism advocates seldom defend it in informed company. So, we must first focus on the “stronger” atheist position, the one they defend in public: “weak atheism,” generally described as absence of belief in god or gods. I will argue that it too is far weaker than is commonly recognized.

I know of no positive arguments for the strong “there is no god” position, other than the argument from evil which has been addressed by Boethius, Adams  and Platinga. Aside from that, there are only rebuttals/reactions to various “there is a god” arguments. This exemplifies how rebutting an argument does not eliminate it as evidence, it only offers an alternative perspective that one  can evaluate along with the original argument.   Depending on the strength of the rebuttal or alternative explanation, that particular positive evidence for god may be decreased in value, but there is no concurrent increase in the value of an argument against the existence of god (as described above).

If a “weak atheist” claims to “lack belief” because there is “no evidence for god,” he or she is necessarily being intellectually dishonest, because we certainly aren’t privy to all potential or available evidence. Are such atheists claiming to be omniscient? If not, then, a more modest and reasonable point would be that they are not aware of evidence for god. However, given what we have already seen, such “weak atheists” cannot genuinely claim to not know of “any” evidence for god after having perused any of the above evidence.  That is to say, there is evidence for god, just, they don’t accept it. But incredulity or hyper-skepticism on your part does not equate to “no evidence” on my part. Testimony from otherwise credible sources is not made “less credible” simply because the testimony is about something the listener personally finds to be in-credible; it is not intellectually honest to discredit the credibility of testimony only on the basis of the subject matter being debated.

Also, strong atheists often only refer to themselves as weak atheists because they have realized that the strong atheist position is an assertion they cannot support in informed company.  They do this to provide cover for their real view, which is an obvious form of intellectual dishonesty.  One can often discern when this is going on when the person ridicules belief in god or makes categorical dismissals about evidence they have never even seen; they believe there is no god, and so assume there can be no valid evidence for god, and advocate for that position rhetorically via ridicule.

Even if the “weak atheist” is not aware of any compelling evidence for god, he or she must know that we humans are quite limited in what we know, and may often be unaware of mistakes in what we think we know. That means that any categorical claim a “weak” atheist makes about the available evidence he or she is not privy to — that it is not credible or convincing — is again intellectually dishonest because you cannot justifiably make a categorical claim about something you have no knowledge of.

So, if we have a weak atheist who is aware of the existence of the above evidence and agrees that there might be more evidence they are not privy to; and who does not categorically assert problems with the evidence they have not yet seen; and who does not categorically dismiss the available evidence as “non-evidence” due to hyper-skeptical bias but rather states that the available evidence they have seen is not compelling towards a conclusion that god exists; then one must ask the following:

In the face of such overwhelming amounts of evidence — thousands of years of testimony and anecdotal stories; many serious arguments based on credible empirical evidence and apparently necessary logical premises and inferences; and, the complete lack of any generally successful attempt to make a sound argument that god in fact does not exist — one must ask: how can any intellectually honest person come to any conclusion other than that on the balance of the evidence, god probably exists,  even if god is poorly and diversely defined, and even if the experience of god is open to various interpretations and even to misunderstanding?

As an analogy: even if one has never personally experienced “love”; in the face of thousands of years of testimony and anecdotal stories that love exists, and empirical evidence supporting that certain physical states correspond to assertions of experiences of love, would it be intellectually honest to “lack belief” that love exists, or would it be intellectually honest to hold the view that even though one doesn’t experience love (or using the same argument, color, joy, dreams, etc.), that love probably exists – even if people are widely disparate in their explanation, description, or presentation of what love is?

Another analogy: because witnesses disagree in their description of a criminal suspect in a crime, or disagree about the particulars of the crime they witnessed, this doesn’t mean there is no criminal at all.  Depending on the testimony and evidence, one may hold that it is likely that a crime occurred, and so it is likely that a criminal exists, but that the arguments, testimony and evidence are  not enough reach a finding of “guilty” for any particular suspect.

As far as I am aware of there is no anecdotal or testimonial evidence that god does not exist (because lack of experience of a thing isn’t evidence the thing doesn’t exist), very little in the way of logical argument towards that conclusion, and there is a vast array of logical, anecdotal, testimonial and empirical evidence that god (at least as generally described above) does exist. Because a billion people did not witness a crime, and only a handful did, doesn’t tilt the scales in favor of no crime having been committed at all; imagine now a billion people that report witnessing a crime, and handful that did not, and you have something more comparable to the state of evidence concerning the existence of god.

Even if one doesn’t find that evidence compelling for for a final conclusion that god exists,  when one weighs the balance of the evidence for and against god, one should be willing to at least consider whether it is more probable that god (as described above) exists than that god does not exist.  Problematically (for the atheist), the view that it is more likely that god exists than not is not any sort of an atheistic position.

The argument against strong atheism:

Strong atheism is defined as the assertion that no god or gods exist whatsoever.

First, it is obvious that strong atheism cannot be logically supported, simply because it is impossible to prove (not in the absolute sense, but in the “sufficient evidence” sense). There may be evidence and good argument that certain gods, or kinds of gods, do not exist; but there is certainly no generally accepted evidence or successful argument that no significant, meaningful god or gods whatsoever exist, including the one as defined for this thread.

Instead of trying to actually support their own claim, strong atheists usually attempt to shift the burden of proof onto theists by essentially asking the theists to prove the atheist position wrong, implying or asserting that atheism must be held true by default.  That is, such try to argue that they have nothing to argue and can sit comfortably on their view as a default. However, that is not so; every worldview of consequence has a duty to show that it is factually adequate, coherent and explains reality powerfully and simply.  Strong atheism is not a default position; it is a positive assertion that no god or gods exist.  The default position is always “I don’t know” or true agnosticism.

Strong atheism is a sweeping, categorical assertion that something does not exist. As such, It has the job of proving a universal negative.  Perhaps this could be accomplished by showing the converse positive claim to be self-contradictory, and readers advocating strong atheism are invited to make their case based upon the definition of God at the top of this post.

Also, however unlikely it may seem to an atheist, it might be true that a god of some sort exists outside of the circle of what she or he knows or what the collective of atheists actually know. After all, we all know full well that “to err is human.” So, since the atheist could be mistaken or ignorant of the key fact or argument that would be decisive,  the strong atheist position unjustifiably excludes a potentially true explanation from consideration.  What is the rationally useful point of a metaphysical position that excludes a potentially true explanation from consideration?  Especially when it requires asserting an unsupportable universal negative? What, then, does strong atheism bring to the table of debate other than the potential for intractable error and denial of potential truth for the sake of a sweeping, unsupportable, universally negative assertion?

Conclusion: atheism is an untenable position for any intellectually honest, rational, and informed person. The belief that god (as described above, which is supported by the listed evidence) does not exist, or that it isn’t more likely that god exists than not, can only be a position based on ignorance of the available evidence and argument for god, or a hyper-skeptical, intellectually dishonest, ideologically biased, a priori dismissal of all of the evidence for the existence of god.

Comments
OK - but my problem is that the information is still there regardless of what you call it which to me anyway is coming off as a very thin and transparent fig leaf. Your naive labeling of this information as trope and your mis-use of Hebrew vs OT does nothing whatsoever in dealing with the information. I'm sure I don't have to point out your atheism provides you a questionable interpretive lens because it seems to give you what you want, but it does appear to bring into question your claim of "serious, sincere reflection."alan
January 10, 2013
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Elvis,
Adding Darwin´s evolution theory...and research results within scientific fields such as genetics and quantum mechanics should lead any logical observer to the conclusion that a stochastic, dynamic evolution model explains earthly life
Try transferring recorded information (the genotype) into a material effect (the phenotype) without using immaterial relationships instantiated in matter. When you fail at that (as you will most certainly do) and concede that it cannot be done (which you will most likely not do) then you can set out to demonstrate how enegry-independent relationships come into existence from inexorable law -- prior to the onset of information-based organization, and prior to the onset of Darwinian evolution. When you work all that out, then perhaps you can promote your "logic" as justifiable ... or as you construe it, “intellectually honorable belief”.Upright BiPed
January 10, 2013
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KRock, Kairosfocus. I was led today to offer you both a copy of the book, signed of course, free of charge. If you would like a copy email me a postal address I will send one over to you. peter.jamieson@inbox.com BlessingsPeterJ
January 10, 2013
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Dear Mr Murray, Thanks for reading my rebuttal. I´m glad you enjoyed it. Now, the "perfect god" is not a subjective and vague god. It is an infallible one that can do everything. Not just best in relation to any other god, but best in an absolute sense. The perfect god has its origin in Greek philosophy(Xenophanes) and is of course an unattainable ideal. Still the common theist thinks that it exists. Lamentable... A discussion of the perfect god and its importance for the monotheistic construct is a big thing. I will return to the matter on my site. Of course you are right. I meant "evidence", not "arguments". Things get wrong without proofreading. Another error I am guilty of is writing "honorable" instead of "honest". I´m glad you didn´t pinpoint that. Now to your question; Why am I doing this? My answer is this; I do not want to take spirituality from people, but I want to dismantle religions from all sorts of political power and to support reason. I think the deistic way is the right way to go in these endeavors. If the ordinary man was convinced that there perhaps is a god, but that this god doesn´t care about him, then religions would collapse. That´s good enough for me!Elvis4708
January 10, 2013
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Andre@315, Not so: http://www.popsci.com/scitech/article/2009-08/evolving-robots-learn-lie-hide-resources-each-otherLarTanner
January 10, 2013
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KF@314, This is incorrect:
your atheism...implies that god...is IMPOSSIBLE
Improbable, not impossible. See, for example, Dawkins's chapter 4, "Why There Almost Certainly Is No God." My atheism views natural forces, objects, and "laws" (so to speak) as sufficient to understand reality and explain it. It also views human behavior and psychology as the source of, and solution to, various worldly ills. God is unnecessary.LarTanner
January 10, 2013
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LarTanner: ”But let me ask: Can the origin and continued existence of planet earth be explained without invoking not just an ID but the God of the OP? .”
No sir, I hold that to be a logical impossibility. The origin and continued existence of matter cannot be explained by matter itself. There simply has to be a transcendent cause.
LarTanner: ”If yes, then what good is the god concept? .”
I agree, if there are solid physicalistic explanations for the origin and continued existence of the universe, life, consciousness, morality and such, the god concept isn’t any good.Box
January 10, 2013
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@Mung Thanks for the link...KRock
January 10, 2013
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LarTanner, machines cannot lieAndre
January 10, 2013
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LT: First you know that a great many things are not subject to reduction to algorithmic description, which is what it takes to create a machine to do it. Just off the top of my head, construct a machine to show the truth of any arbitrary set of mathematical claims relative to any arbitrary set of axioms, by proof on some arbitrary set of logical calculus principles. Second, you are ducking the actual challenge you have: your atheism, in light of modern forms of the arguments to god, implies that god -- a serious candidate necessary being -- is IMPOSSIBLE (= there is no possible world in which a being recognisable as god exists, similar to there is no possible world in which 3 + 2 = 4, on the usual meanings . . . ), and that is how he would not be necessary. Have you actually credibly shown this, or has any other atheist? If so, kindly show us. If not, kindly explain your claims on holding a satisfactory position. (And that is before we get to issues of the fine tuning required of the physics and constituents of the cosmos to get to a planet like earth, which is another issue you are gliding by quietly while setting up strawman arguments to brush aside, or trying to twist the issue about as though you hold a default. Every tub must stand on its own bottom here..) KFkairosfocus
January 10, 2013
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WJM, It is important to me. It's something I value because hearing such a case articulated plainly and directly helped me immensely. It's also something I value for my children.LarTanner
January 10, 2013
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Box, I appreciate the question, and perhaps my thinking is more muddled than I realized on this point. But let me ask: Can the origin and continued existence of planet earth be explained without invoking not just an ID but the God of the OP? If yes, then what good is the god concept? Substitute any number of specific objects for "planet earth" and you start to see what I'm getting at, which is really a transformation of the statement attributed to von Neumann:
You insist that there is something a machine cannot do. If you tell me precisely what it is a machine cannot do, then I can always make a machine which will do just that.
It seems to me (pardon my need to qualify opinions, as I don't wish to be accused of stating things as facts) that every time we insist that something could not have arisen without God's divine hand or foot, then when we zone in on precisely what it is that could not have arisen -- we find a way that it either could have or did.LarTanner
January 10, 2013
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LarTanner:
My best recommendation for research is to pursue two areas: one, scholarship on Second-Temple-Era Judaism, and two, very early Christianity.
A New Testament Biblical Theology: The Unfolding of the Old Testament in the New Commentary on the New Testament Use of the Old Testament Handbook on the New Testament Use of the Old Testament: Exegesis and Interpretation The Right Doctrine from the Wrong Texts?: Essays on the Use of the Old Testament in the New
My best recommendation for research is to pursue two areas: one, scholarship on Second-Temple-Era Judaism, and two, very early Christianity.
To what end?Mung
January 10, 2013
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Thank you for your interest. I’m fairly sure that you can download a Kindle App for your computer, and therefore you could receive it that way.
Free Reading AppsMung
January 10, 2013
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LT:
It’s important because many people don’t know, and perhaps they will be helped personally or philosophically by knowing.
Please don't think I'm being facetious: Why is it important for you to help others?William J Murray
January 10, 2013
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@LarTanner
LarTanner: ”One of my main objections to theistic views in general has not–I think, I might have missed it–been addressed: theism is unnecessary as an explanation of anything in reality. To my knowledge and mind, no one has made a positive case that God (the god of the OP) must be invoked in order to explain the origin and operation of X.”
Can you elucidate your objection? Given the cosmological, ontological, fine tuning and moral arguments it seems inappropriate for anyone to state ‘to my knowledge and mind, no one has made a positive case that God (the god of the OP) must be invoked in order to explain the origin and operation of X’. ---- @bornagain77 -299 You are welcome! Did you know about John Lorber?Box
January 10, 2013
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LT: You can see a 101 level survey of what I think it takes to build a worldview here on, as you are familiar with (I added a little bit recently). (As an aside, the "prophecies" point pivots on the matters discussed here on in context.) Some very serious issues lurk underneath the surface of this thread, on the challenge of warrant. And, the issue of soundness vs validity is a useful start point for addressing warrant for claims, much less going on to address warrant for worldviews on comparative difficulties. I would be interested to see your addressing of the implied issues in my remark to Elvis4708 at 295 above, e.g.:
ask yourself what commitments you are making at metaphysical level to reject the theistic views as developed in modern forms. And, ask yourself whether these are demanding a cumulative metaphysical price you are truly willing to pay, why. Such as, are you able to ground morality, good and evil objectively in a foundational IS of your view? (If not you cannot open your mouth to pose the problem of evil, much less try to respond to Plantinga’s defense.) Similarly, are you truly willing to argue that god is inescapably, inevitably IMPOSSIBLE (as god will be a necessary being candidate and can only be blocked by impossibility)? again, are you sure that your perceived incoherence of the concept of god is not based on strawman caricatures? What is your own worldview, how do its core presuppositions cohere, address the facts of experienced reality, and explain elegantly but not simplistically? Do you have an adequate account of: the origins of a cosmos fine tuned for life, math showing the astonishing unity in 0 = 1 + e^i*pi (and all that that points to) which is at the same time deeply embedded in physical reality, the origin of digital code using algorithm based cellular life, mind and morals?
Some pretty serious claims and assertions have been made in recent days, especially by leading atheist spokesmen such as Dawkins. All that stuff about ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked, or else about child abuse or else about following barbaric, genocidal etc bronze age sky warrior gods etc comes to mind. If the atmosphere seems a bit strained or polarised, it is not all coming from one side. So, let us put such to one side and speak to matters on the merits. I think it is quite fair to ask for warrant -- what rational justification is getting at. Remember, for just one instance, that it is seriously arguable that -- per necessary being logic -- you (as an atheist) are implicitly committed not just to the view that there is no god, but that such a god is IMPOSSIBLE. That is a pretty strong claim, and it implies several pretty strong ones, including a scale of delusion that would bring the stability, capacity and trustworthiness of the human mind under serious question. How do you warrant such? I think it is every tub must stand on its own bottom time. KFkairosfocus
January 10, 2013
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The Most Amazing Prophecy - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejHX3uyySQQbornagain77
January 10, 2013
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WJM@301, It's important because many people don't know, and perhaps they will be helped personally or philosophically by knowing. KF@302, agreed. But soundness and truth are still in play. Hence, we discuss. alan@303. The 300 prophecies trope is interesting, and I was once more familiar with it than I am now. I seem to recall a tongue-in-cheek statement to the effect statement that each of us may be fulfilling 300 prophecies just by sitting here today and reading the Hebrew Scriptures in the suitable frame. My answer is that the Hebrew Scriptures of Judaism are entirely different from the Christian Old Testament. The Old Testament is, in fact, a certain way of reading the Hebrew Scriptures as well as the results (such as Christology) of that way of reading. To be sure, The Hebrew Scriptures are a certain way of reading the many pre-existing texts of ancient Israel's library, but this again goes to my overall thesis that the two are different; what's more, they are fundamentally irreconcilable. You cannot read the Hebrew Scriptures and get to the Christian Jesus. Only the OT can do that. Neither can you read the OT and get to Judaism. The rest of this argument requires more detail and textual/historical analysis (to say nothing of debate!) than I am able to muster. My best recommendation for research is to pursue two areas: one, scholarship on Second-Temple-Era Judaism, and two, very early Christianity.LarTanner
January 10, 2013
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Alan, I have zero informed understanding of scripture, so I simply cannot offer any meaningful opinion thereof.William J Murray
January 10, 2013
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289 LarTanner wrote: "that I am an atheist not because I really think it’s true but because I have ulterior motives. You can imagine how insulting it is to have someone who doesn’t know you say that you’re an atheist because you’re captive to hedonism, or a warped political view, or a dislike of authority, or egotism, or whatever. In all cases, the one thing never granted is that the atheist arrived at the conclusion through serious, sincere reflection." Please, and I am not "insulting" you here, just a question and if you have answers I would greatly appreciate receiving your research and determinations. You say your "serious, sincere reflections" have allowed for you an honest, lacking "ulterior motives", conclusion re. atheism - so - in your study of the 300+ prophecies concerning the details of the first advent, how did you determine they are all dismissible? thank you and would really like to examine your research and conclusion - really and sincerely. p.s. TO WJM - you said you don't know this subject very well - interesting - my first post opened with - "And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and YOU WILL DO WELL TO PAY ATTENTION to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts." p.p.s. WJM - Why do you think scripture says it important? What "weight" to this discussion do you think it has? Could it be of a type that mathematically confers your thesis? Its not a side subject. It has more power than all the evidences you have presented here - all natural. I point this out because these natural argument don't move one out of that box, they just keep repeating themselves interesting as they are.alan
January 10, 2013
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F/N: Pardon, but valid != sound. Sound is where truth enters, and it is where we need to address well warranted, i.e. the exact question of reasoned justification. KFkairosfocus
January 10, 2013
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LT said:
So, I think it’s important for people to know atheism is a valid and healthy view of the world.
Why is it important?William J Murray
January 10, 2013
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@bornagain77 - 284 I'll see your gigabyte and raise you a terabyte: Do we need a brain at all? "There's a young student at this university," says [professor] Lorber, "who has an IQ of 126, has gained a first-class honors degree in mathematics, and is socially completely normal. And yet the boy has virtually no brain." ‘Is Your Brain Really Necessary?’,by Roger Lewin, Science, New Series, Vol.210, No.4475 (Dec. 12, 1980), 1232-1234. (PDF) Other links on this subject: G.M. Woerlee and Flatrock.org.nz.Box
January 10, 2013
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Thanks Box!bornagain77
January 10, 2013
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WJM, My response at the end of #264 was intended as an answer to your question. I like the details of the discussion. Your question at #288 is a bit different. For me, one point to engaging in the discussion is to promote the legitimacy of an atheist view. It's reasonable to be an atheist, and it's a moral and socially legitimate identity category. Recall what you write in the OP:
atheism is an untenable position for any intellectually honest, rational, and informed person. The belief that god (as described above, which is supported by the listed evidence) does not exist, or that it isn’t more likely that god exists than not, can only be a position based on ignorance of the available evidence and argument for god, or a hyper-skeptical, intellectually dishonest, ideologically biased, a priori dismissal of all of the evidence for the existence of god. [Boldface added]
I still read this as ascribing atheism to motives other than fair assessment, even on a charitable interpretation. So, I think it's important for people to know atheism is a valid and healthy view of the world. That's a big point for me. KF@291: I understand you think I'm seriously off-base, but I have no desire, means, or requisite expertise to comment at all on your recollection of your experiences. I want to acknowledge what you say and not come across as dismissing it in any way, yet I am exchanging with you the fact that I too have had transforming experiences that I cherish. It's a remarkable thing to be a human being and to live on this planet in the time that we do.LarTanner
January 10, 2013
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@bornagain77 - 284 I'll see your gigabyte and raise you a terabyte: Do we need a brain at all? "There's a young student at this university," says [professor] Lorber, "who has an IQ of 126, has gained a first-class honors degree in mathematics, and is socially completely normal. And yet the boy has virtually no brain." ‘Is Your Brain Really Necessary?’,by Roger Lewin, Science, New Series, Vol.210, No.4475 (Dec. 12, 1980), 1232-1234. <a href=”http://www.psych.ufl.edu/~steh/PSB4504/brainnecessary.pdf”(PDF) Other links on this subject: <a href=”http://www.neardeath.woerlee.org/almost-brainless.php”G.M. Woerlee and <a href=”http://flatrock.org.nz/topics/science/is_the_brain_really_necessary.htm”Flatrock.org.nzBox
January 10, 2013
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KN 290, don't get upset at me, get upset at the evidence! It's the evidence that falsified your ''I' am my body' claim. I merely pointed the evidence out and refused to buy your sophistry!,,, If you were truly open, and brave enough, to following the evidence wherever it led, then you would thank me for pointing out the evidence correcting you instead of being upset at me. And, IMHO, you would have 'traded up' to something more glorious and wonderfully real than any mere human words, even with your talent for wordsmithing, can pay credit to: "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." William Shakespeare - Hamlet Evanescence - The Other Side (Lyric Video) http://www.vevo.com/watch/evanescence/the-other-side-lyric-video/USWV41200024?source=instantsearchbornagain77
January 10, 2013
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Elvis4708 I suggest you re-work your thinking in an inference to best explanation context. In so doing, ask yourself what commitments you are making at metaphysical level to reject the theistic views as developed in modern forms. And, ask yourself whether these are demanding a cumulative metaphysical price you are truly willing to py, why. Such as, are you able to ground morality, good and evil objectively in a foundational IS of your view? (If not you cannot open your mouth to pose the problem of evil, much less try to respond to Plantinga's defense.) Similarly, are you truly willing to argue that god is inescapably, inevitably IMPOSSIBLE (as god will be a necessary being candidate and can only be blocked by impossibility)? again, are you sure that your perceived incoherence of the concept of god is not based on strawman caricatures? What is your own worldview, how do its core presuppositions cohere, address the facts of experienced reality, and explain elegantly but not simplistically? Do you have an adequate account of: the origins of a cosmos fine tuned for life, math showing the astonishing unity in 0 = 1 + e^i*pi (and all that that points to) which is at the same time deeply embedded in physical reality, the origin of digital code using algorithm based cellular life, mind and morals? And so forth. KFkairosfocus
January 10, 2013
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LT: Sorry, I mis-attributed the "I'm done here" to you; that was KN.William J Murray
January 10, 2013
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