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Is Atheism Rationally Justifiable?

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First, I’d like to thank Mr. Arrington for granting me posting privileges.  I consider it quite an honor, and I hope this post (and any future posts) warrants this trust.

Second, the following is an argument I think will help us to focus on a fundamental issue that lies behind ever so many of the debates here at Uncommon Descent, and elsewhere.  That is, is the sort of implicit or even explicit atheism that is so often built in on the ground floor of a “scientific” mindset truly rationally justifiable? Such cannot be assumed, it needs to be shown.

I’ll begin by defining some terms for the sake of this argument:

Definition of God (for the purpose of this thread): First cause, prime mover, root of being, objective source of human purpose (final cause) and resulting morality, source of free will, mind, consciousness; omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent inasmuch as principles of logic allow; an interventionist as necessary to facilitate movement towards final cause and also inasmuch as logical principles are not violated; source of logic — “reason itself.” (I am not talking in particular about any specifically defined religious interpretation of god, such as the Chrstian or Islamic God.)

Definition: Weak, or negative atheism is the lack of any belief that a god exists, and the position that a god probably doesn’t exist, and is not the positive belief that gods do not exist (strong atheism), and is not agnosticism (the lack of belief that god either does or does not exist and the further view that there is a lack of sufficient probability either way).  Strong atheism is the belief that no god or gods exist at all.

Definition: A worldview or mindset is rationally justified when it answers adequately to the facts of the real world as we experience or observe it, makes good sense and fits together logically, is simple but not simplistic, and honestly faces the issues and difficulties that all worldviews face.

Definition: Intellectual dishonesty occurs when (1) one deliberately mischaracterizes their position or view in order to avoid having to logically defend their actual views; and/or (2) when someone is arguing, or making statements against a position while remaining willfully ignorant about that position, and/or (3) when someone categorically and/or pejoratively dismisses all existent and/or potential evidence in favor of a conclusion they claim to be neutral about, whether they are familiar with that evidence or not.

These will be important as we consider:

Evidence in favor of God:  The following is a brief summary of the evidence that typically leads many people to make a general finding that a god (as described above) exists, even if variantly interpreted or culturally contextualized:

(1)
Anecdotal evidence for the apparently intelligently ordered anomalous, miraculous (defying expected natural processes and probabilities) events attributed to god, such as signs, supernatural events (e.g. Fatima, Guadeloupe, Paul’s Damascus Road Experience), or answers to prayers to god;

(2)
Testimonial evidence (first-hand accounts) of experience of such phenomena, including interactions with a god-like being or accounts of god-like interventions;  Also, the testimony of religious adherents of various specific gods can be counted as evidence of the god premised in this argument in the manner that various cultures can vary widely in their description of certain phenomena or experiences, and come up with widely variant “explanations”; what is interesting as evidence here, though, is the widespread crediting of similar kinds of phenomena and experience to a “god” of some sort (which might be the case of blind or ignorant people touching different parts of an elephant and thus describing “what the elephant is” in various ways). Such testimonial evidence can be counted in favor of the premise here, but cannot be held against it where it varies, because it is not testimony that such a god doesn’t exist.

(3)
The various Cosmological and Ontological Arguments for the existence of god;

(4)  The Strong Anthropic (or Fine Tuning) argument and other evidences for design of our world and of life in it;

(5) The empirical, scientific evidence assembled in support of the design arguments in #4 (such as recently persuaded Antony Flew — formerly the world’s leading philosophical atheist — that there is a god);

(6) The Moral arguments for the existence of god.

(7) Empirical and testimonial evidence of phenomena closely correlated to the existence of a god as described above, such as the survival of consciousness after death, and the existence of an afterlife realm; the evidence for interactions with correlated entities such as angels and demons (which seem to act to influence our free will towards or away from our human purpose), etc., gathered by various serious and scientific investigations into what is often referred to as the “paranormal”, including mediumship studies dating back to William Crooke and ongoing through the work at Pear Labs and the Scole Experiment, including consciousness-survival research published in the Lancet. While indirect, this evidence tends to support the proposition that god exists.

While the various arguments listed above have been subjected to counter-arguments and rebuttals of varying strengths and weaknesses across the ages, one must not lose sight that while there is much evidence of all sorts (as listed above) in favor of the existence of god; there is zero empirical evidence (to my knowledge) or and little in the way of rational argument that no such god exists.  In other words, decreasing the value of the arguments and evidence for god does not increase the value of the position that there is no god; it can only increase the reasonableness of the “weak atheist” (there isn’t enough evidence) or an agnostic position.

The commonly seen rebuttals to these argument are simply attempting to show weaknesses in or alternatives to the arguments themselves so that such arguments cannot be taken as demonstratively convincing (that god exists); such counter-arguments as a rule do not actually make the case that god (as described above) in fact does not exist.

The argument against weak atheism:

The above shows us that, ironically, strong atheism is a weak position. That is probably why atheism advocates seldom defend it in informed company. So, we must first focus on the “stronger” atheist position, the one they defend in public: “weak atheism,” generally described as absence of belief in god or gods. I will argue that it too is far weaker than is commonly recognized.

I know of no positive arguments for the strong “there is no god” position, other than the argument from evil which has been addressed by Boethius, Adams  and Platinga. Aside from that, there are only rebuttals/reactions to various “there is a god” arguments. This exemplifies how rebutting an argument does not eliminate it as evidence, it only offers an alternative perspective that one  can evaluate along with the original argument.   Depending on the strength of the rebuttal or alternative explanation, that particular positive evidence for god may be decreased in value, but there is no concurrent increase in the value of an argument against the existence of god (as described above).

If a “weak atheist” claims to “lack belief” because there is “no evidence for god,” he or she is necessarily being intellectually dishonest, because we certainly aren’t privy to all potential or available evidence. Are such atheists claiming to be omniscient? If not, then, a more modest and reasonable point would be that they are not aware of evidence for god. However, given what we have already seen, such “weak atheists” cannot genuinely claim to not know of “any” evidence for god after having perused any of the above evidence.  That is to say, there is evidence for god, just, they don’t accept it. But incredulity or hyper-skepticism on your part does not equate to “no evidence” on my part. Testimony from otherwise credible sources is not made “less credible” simply because the testimony is about something the listener personally finds to be in-credible; it is not intellectually honest to discredit the credibility of testimony only on the basis of the subject matter being debated.

Also, strong atheists often only refer to themselves as weak atheists because they have realized that the strong atheist position is an assertion they cannot support in informed company.  They do this to provide cover for their real view, which is an obvious form of intellectual dishonesty.  One can often discern when this is going on when the person ridicules belief in god or makes categorical dismissals about evidence they have never even seen; they believe there is no god, and so assume there can be no valid evidence for god, and advocate for that position rhetorically via ridicule.

Even if the “weak atheist” is not aware of any compelling evidence for god, he or she must know that we humans are quite limited in what we know, and may often be unaware of mistakes in what we think we know. That means that any categorical claim a “weak” atheist makes about the available evidence he or she is not privy to — that it is not credible or convincing — is again intellectually dishonest because you cannot justifiably make a categorical claim about something you have no knowledge of.

So, if we have a weak atheist who is aware of the existence of the above evidence and agrees that there might be more evidence they are not privy to; and who does not categorically assert problems with the evidence they have not yet seen; and who does not categorically dismiss the available evidence as “non-evidence” due to hyper-skeptical bias but rather states that the available evidence they have seen is not compelling towards a conclusion that god exists; then one must ask the following:

In the face of such overwhelming amounts of evidence — thousands of years of testimony and anecdotal stories; many serious arguments based on credible empirical evidence and apparently necessary logical premises and inferences; and, the complete lack of any generally successful attempt to make a sound argument that god in fact does not exist — one must ask: how can any intellectually honest person come to any conclusion other than that on the balance of the evidence, god probably existseven if god is poorly and diversely defined, and even if the experience of god is open to various interpretations and even to misunderstanding?

As an analogy: even if one has never personally experienced “love”; in the face of thousands of years of testimony and anecdotal stories that love exists, and empirical evidence supporting that certain physical states correspond to assertions of experiences of love, would it be intellectually honest to “lack belief” that love exists, or would it be intellectually honest to hold the view that even though one doesn’t experience love (or using the same argument, color, joy, dreams, etc.), that love probably exists – even if people are widely disparate in their explanation, description, or presentation of what love is?

Another analogy: because witnesses disagree in their description of a criminal suspect in a crime, or disagree about the particulars of the crime they witnessed, this doesn’t mean there is no criminal at all.  Depending on the testimony and evidence, one may hold that it is likely that a crime occurred, and so it is likely that a criminal exists, but that the arguments, testimony and evidence are  not enough reach a finding of “guilty” for any particular suspect.

As far as I am aware of there is no anecdotal or testimonial evidence that god does not exist (because lack of experience of a thing isn’t evidence the thing doesn’t exist), very little in the way of logical argument towards that conclusion, and there is a vast array of logical, anecdotal, testimonial and empirical evidence that god (at least as generally described above) does exist. Because a billion people did not witness a crime, and only a handful did, doesn’t tilt the scales in favor of no crime having been committed at all; imagine now a billion people that report witnessing a crime, and handful that did not, and you have something more comparable to the state of evidence concerning the existence of god.

Even if one doesn’t find that evidence compelling for for a final conclusion that god exists,  when one weighs the balance of the evidence for and against god, one should be willing to at least consider whether it is more probable that god (as described above) exists than that god does not exist.  Problematically (for the atheist), the view that it is more likely that god exists than not is not any sort of an atheistic position.

The argument against strong atheism:

Strong atheism is defined as the assertion that no god or gods exist whatsoever.

First, it is obvious that strong atheism cannot be logically supported, simply because it is impossible to prove (not in the absolute sense, but in the “sufficient evidence” sense). There may be evidence and good argument that certain gods, or kinds of gods, do not exist; but there is certainly no generally accepted evidence or successful argument that no significant, meaningful god or gods whatsoever exist, including the one as defined for this thread.

Instead of trying to actually support their own claim, strong atheists usually attempt to shift the burden of proof onto theists by essentially asking the theists to prove the atheist position wrong, implying or asserting that atheism must be held true by default.  That is, such try to argue that they have nothing to argue and can sit comfortably on their view as a default. However, that is not so; every worldview of consequence has a duty to show that it is factually adequate, coherent and explains reality powerfully and simply.  Strong atheism is not a default position; it is a positive assertion that no god or gods exist.  The default position is always “I don’t know” or true agnosticism.

Strong atheism is a sweeping, categorical assertion that something does not exist. As such, It has the job of proving a universal negative.  Perhaps this could be accomplished by showing the converse positive claim to be self-contradictory, and readers advocating strong atheism are invited to make their case based upon the definition of God at the top of this post.

Also, however unlikely it may seem to an atheist, it might be true that a god of some sort exists outside of the circle of what she or he knows or what the collective of atheists actually know. After all, we all know full well that “to err is human.” So, since the atheist could be mistaken or ignorant of the key fact or argument that would be decisive,  the strong atheist position unjustifiably excludes a potentially true explanation from consideration.  What is the rationally useful point of a metaphysical position that excludes a potentially true explanation from consideration?  Especially when it requires asserting an unsupportable universal negative? What, then, does strong atheism bring to the table of debate other than the potential for intractable error and denial of potential truth for the sake of a sweeping, unsupportable, universally negative assertion?

Conclusion: atheism is an untenable position for any intellectually honest, rational, and informed person. The belief that god (as described above, which is supported by the listed evidence) does not exist, or that it isn’t more likely that god exists than not, can only be a position based on ignorance of the available evidence and argument for god, or a hyper-skeptical, intellectually dishonest, ideologically biased, a priori dismissal of all of the evidence for the existence of god.

Comments
@ PeterJ Amen brother! What about all the testimonial evidence of people coming face to face with evil? I posted (post #12) a link to an article in which I find to be compelling evidence to the existence of evil, the very same evil recorded in scripture that Jesus and the Apostles often dealt with. Can't help but post this link to Chris Tomlin's song "Awake My Soul" because I feel that over the last few years, that's exactley what God's done in my life... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALW1AwdKEnMKRock
January 9, 2013
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The conversation seems to have moved on quite a bit here, so I will wait for another opportunity to engage with Stephen's objection to nominalism @ 209, though I believe I can meet it. Whether or not I can actually meet it, of course, is a separate issue. However, William Murray's objections @ 221 are, I believe, pre-empted by my remarks @ 166. I did not claim that we are our brains, and I consider it quite foolish to identify oneself with one's brain. As I emphasized at 166, I qua perceiving, acting, and thinking being am an embodied person, a rational animal, not a brain. A brain is a part of an animal, and a well-functioning brain is part of a well-functioning animal, and a brain that encodes social and linguistic norms is part of a rational animal. I could not think if I did not have a brain, but I could not digest good if I did not have a stomach. Brains don't think; it is animals who think, and brains are part of how thinking happens. As thinking animals, our brains are constantly receiving information from our social and physical environments and use that information to modify their mediation between sensory input and motor output. The social environments of large-brained primates include implicit norms and rules, and with the acquisition of language comes the ability to render those norms explicit, to consider whether and how they might be revised, and so on. The norms that it seems impossible to use to revise are called "principles" or sometimes "laws". So I really don't think that a commitment to rationalism is incompatible with naturalism; put otherwise, I don't think that one must be committed to theism in metaphysics in order to explain rationalism in epistemology. As my motivations and purposes: I don't think that theism is irrational, or unsupported by evidence, or what-have-you. I'm quite fond of my theistic parents and friends. I've been in serious relationships with people of faith. So I'm not out to heckle or harass theists, or argue that they're wrong to believe that they do, or whatever. My agenda is to argue that atheism/naturalism does not "shirk any epistemic burdens," to use Plantinga's lovely phrase -- that it is not less reasonable than theism -- nor is it any more reasonable. Considered philosophically, theism and atheism are on a par. I'd imagine that this would be welcome news to those who are religious on Kierkegaardian or Jamesian grounds, but perhaps there is no one here who answers to that description.Kantian Naturalist
January 9, 2013
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Peter, I looked at your testimony and I believe you.bornagain77
January 9, 2013
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F/N: I have a moment again, so let me address the attemp0ts to dismiss the Plantinga free will defense. When the attempts move beyond vague we have an objection claims -- an objection is not a warrant -- they usually pivot on misreading a defense as a theodicy. Then, the idea is that since I reject or deride one or more terms the argument fails. Mistake. (Usually, piled on the further error of failing to address the Boethius point: if no God, whence good? Until atheists can ground morality, good and evil objectively on a foundational IS in their views, they should not be allowed to appeal to the problem of evil. Attempts to appeal to infinite regresses or circular patterns fail (as has been discussed elsewhere circles cannot ground anything and infinite regresses cannot be traversed by warranting step by step), and so the first problem atheists need to answer is whether they have a right to the argument at all.) The pivot of the atheistical claim on the problem of evil is that there is an incoherence in the claimed nature of God. That is, there are elements that affirm and deny one and the same claim, or imply such. That is extremely stringent, and it opens the way to the strategy Plantinga exploits. If claims X1, X2, . . . Xn are thought to be self contradictory, but some augmenting claim E can be added and then the set {X1, . . . Xn} now is seen to be consistent with E, the original set cannot be inconsistent, so long as E is itself a coherent logical possibility -- there is a possible world in which E AND {X1, . . . Xn} holds means that {X1, . . . Xn} must be coherent. Possibility, not plausibility to a skeptical mind. We can call this the missing piece solution or strategy, from its resemblance to a way to solve a jigsaw puzzle. So, in a skeletal nutshell, here is how Plantinga uses the strategy -- I am of course summarising a much more complex deployment in a full bore technical phil presentation by a former president of the American Philosophers Association. A presentation that won the grudging acknowledgement of champions of the incoherence argument: ____________ >> Plantinga's free-will defense, in a skeletal form, allows us to effectively address the problem. For, it is claimed that the following set of theistic beliefs embed an unresolvable contradiction: 1. God exists 2. God is omnipotent – all powerful 3. God is omniscient – all-knowing 4. God is omni-benevolent – all-good 5. God created the world 6. The world contains evil To do so, there is an implicit claim that, (2a) if he exists, God is omnipotent and so capable of -- but obviously does not eliminate -- evil. So, at least one of 2 – 5 should be surrendered. But all of these claims are central to the notion of God, so it is held that the problem is actually 1. Therefore, NOT-1: God does not exist. However, it has been pointed out by Plantinga and others that: 2a is not consistent with what theists actually believe: if the elimination of some evil would lead to a worse evil, or prevent the emergence of a greater good, then God might have a good reason to permit some evil in the cosmos. Specifically, what if “many evils result from human free will or from the fact that our universe operates under natural laws or from the fact that humans exist in a setting that fosters soul-making . . . [and that such a world] contains more good than a world that does not” ? In this case, Theists propose that 2a should be revised: 2b: “A good, omnipotent God will eliminate evil as far as he can without either losing a greater good or bringing about a greater evil.” But, once this is done, the alleged contradiction collapses. Further, Alvin Plantinga – through his free will defense -- was able to show that the theistic set is actually consistent. He did this by augmenting the set with a further proposition that is logically possible (as opposed to seeming plausible to one who may be committed to another worldview) and which makes the consistency clear. That proposition, skeletally, is 5a: “God created a world (potentially) containing evil; and has a good reason for doing so.” Propositions 1, 2b, 3, 4, and 5a are plainly consistent, and entail 6. The essence of that defense is:
“A world containing creatures who are significantly free (and freely perform more good than evil actions) is more valuable, all else being equal, than a world containing no free creatures . . . God can create free creatures, but he can’t cause or determine them to do only what is right. For . . . then they aren’t significantly free after all . . . He could only have forestalled the occurrence of moral evil only by removing the possibility of moral good.” [NB: This assumes that moral good reflects the power of choice: if we are merely robots carrying out programs, then we cannot actually love, be truthful, etc.] [From: Clark, Kelley James. Return to Reason. (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1994), pp. 69 – 70, citing Plantinga, God, Freedom and Evil, (Eerdmans, 1974), p. 30.]
Nor is the possible world known as heaven a good counter-example. For, heaven would exist as a world in which the results of choices made to live by the truth in love across a lifetime have culminated in their eternal reward. This we may see from an argument made by the apostle Paul:
Rom 2:6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 78 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [NIV]
Anticipating the onward response that in at least some possible worlds, there are free creatures, all of whom freely do what is right, Plantinga asserts a further possibility: trans-world depravity. That is, in all worlds God could create in which a certain person, say Gordon, exists; then that person would have freely gone wrong at least once. And, what if it is further possible that this holds for every class of created, morally capable being? (Then, there would be no possible worlds in which moral good is possible but in which moral evil would not in fact occur. So the benefit of moral good would entail that the world would contain transworld depraved creatures.) Moreover, Plantinga proposes that there is a possible state of affairs in which God and natural evil can exist. For instance, if all natural evils are the result of the actions of significantly free creatures such as Satan and his minions, then since it is logically possible that God could not have created a world with a greater balance of good over evil if it did not contain such creatures, God and natural evil are compatible. At this point, albeit grudgingly, leading atheologians (Such as Mackie and Williams) concede that the deductive form of the problem of evil stands overturned. Thus, a new question is put on the table. It is: But what if the world seems to contain too much evil, and evil that is apparently pointless, i.e. gratuitous? First, the greater good “absorbs” at least some of the evils. To this, the Christian Theist further responds that there are goods in the world that are left out of the account so far; especially, that the fall of mankind led to the greatest good of all: that God loved the world and gave his Son, setting in motion the programme of redemption as a supreme good that absorbs all evils. That is, it is rational for a Christian to believe there are no unabsorbed evils, even though the atheologian may beg to differ with the Christian’s beliefs. However, it should be noted that there is an existential or pastoral form of the problem of evil (as we saw above): where the overwhelming force of evil and pain brings us to doubt God. To that, no mere rational argument will suffice; for it is a life-challenge we face, as did Job. And, as a perusal of Job 23:1 – 7, 38:1 – 7, 40:1 – 8, 42:1 – 6, God may be more interested in exposing our underlying motives and calling for willingness to trust him even where we cannot trace him, than in satisfying our queries and rebutting our pained accusations. That is, it is at least possible that God is primarily in the business of soul-making. >> _____________ Remember, this all pivots on a crucial distinction between a theodicy and a defense [which takes the common skeptical demand for plausibility to "me" off the table], and the way that we can show a set of [propositions to be coherent by augmenting them, i.e. often by constructing a logically possible model world in which these propositions are seen to cohere. Typically, such is an "explanation," but that is not always so. I trust that this outline will prove helpful as a summary of a complex argument. KFkairosfocus
January 9, 2013
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LarTanner "So, let’s start with the testimonial evidence of direct interaction with God." I've posted this on here once before, and don't suppose anyone will look at it, but I came face to face with God in a drugs rehab in 2006. I have just recently published a book about my life, and how meeting God transformed my heart and mind. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Design-for-Life-ebook/dp/B00A73ZDUC/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1357772064&sr=1-1PeterJ
January 9, 2013
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Alan, Via my argument here, fulfilled prophecy from those speaking on behalf of god only tends to support the conclusion (that it isn't rational to be an athiest given consideration of available evidence and argument). Outside of that, I don't hold myself qualified to speak on the subject of scripture. KF and BA are far wiser and more informed than I about scripture and the reasoning and rationale surrounding it and its importance in Christian philosophy/doctrine.William J Murray
January 9, 2013
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LarTanner asks:
For instance, how many testimonials do you know of human beings who have had the direct, personal face-to-face interaction with the God you define in the OP?
I would guess the same number of people that have had a face-to face interaction with China; zero. Even when you're in China, that you're actually in China can only be inferred from your understanding of what it would be like. It's not like China can answer questions. People experience god, I suggest, in much the same way they experience China. Or in much the same way they experience love. Or color. Or joy. Or logic. Or morality. Also, interactions with god-like beings (Jesus, White Buffalo Woman, etc.) count as far as #7 is concerned, just as experiences of people claiming to be chinese or of chinese descent count. It tends to support the central premise. I wonder if you would answer a question for me: why work so hard trying to undermine the evidence for god? From your belief system point of view, what's the point?William J Murray
January 9, 2013
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LarTanner 248: Good example: You define yourself right out of what you say you are seeking by being ONLY "natural" - If you really WANT what you ask - Find and study the indisputable evidence provided by that "Person" in the exact and extensive prophetic fulfillment. You may meet him in this way, but it won't, and can't in the "way" you want. True prophecy is beyond nature and serves a true seeker to see beyond the confines of his own intellect, ideas, beliefs, desires even....but it is HOT!alan
January 9, 2013
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Re. "fact" in last sentence - fact of this special nature rather than etc.alan
January 9, 2013
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But it gets more interesting LT. This infinite dimensional quantum wave state, which requires a infinite amount of information to describe it properly, and which can, theoretically, be encoded with an infinite amount of information, is found to collapse to just a single bit of information:
Quantum Computing – Stanford Encyclopedia Excerpt: Theoretically, a single qubit can store an infinite amount of information, yet when measured (consciously observed) it yields only the classical result (0 or 1) ,,, http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-quantcomp/#2.1
Moreover, consciousness is found to precede wave collapse to a single bit state:
Logical Proofs of Infinite External Consciousness - January 18, 2012 Excerpt: (Proof # 2) If you believe in the theory of Quantum Mechanics, then you believe that conscious observation must be present to collapse a wave function. If consciousness did not exist prior to matter coming into existence, then it is impossible that matter could ever come into existence. Additionally, this rules out the possibility that consciousness is the result of quantum mechanical processes. Either consciousness existed before matter or QM is wrong, one or the other is indisputably true. http://www.libertariannews.org/2012/01/18/logical-proofs-of-infinite-external-consciousness/
Now, I find the preceding to be absolutely fascinating! A photon, in its quantum wave state, is found to be mathematically defined as a ‘infinite-dimensional’ state, which ‘requires an infinite amount of information’ to describe it properly, can be encoded with information in its 'infinite dimensional' state, and this ‘infinite dimensional’ photon is found to collapse, instantaneously, and thus ‘non-locally’, to just a ’1 or 0? state, out of a infinite number of possibilities that the photon could have collapsed to instead! Moreover, consciousness is found to precede the collapse of the wavefunction to its particle state. Now my question to materialistic atheists is this, "Exactly what ’cause’ has been postulated throughout history to be completely independent of any space-time constraints, as well as possessing infinite knowledge, so as to be the ‘sufficient cause’ to explain what we see in the quantum wave collapse of a photon??? Now LT you may think this is 'logically incoherent' but all I can say is 'deal with it' because this is the way reality actually is: Verse and Music:
John 1:1-5 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. God of Wonders by Third Day - music http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CBNE25rtnE
bornagain77
January 9, 2013
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To WJ Murray: No one has taken my "challenge" in this thread (#152, 164, 173). Perhaps you would. Scripture is often sited on this blog and if it wasn't I wouldn't present it. ALL the arguments/positions presented so far attempting to answer your question from analyzing the natural World - Universe are fine, but apparently not good enough. I present one that is from "nature" (space time fulfillment of a plethora of exact and wide ranging prophecies), but from "beyond nature" presenting inescapable proof of a divine Creator. Yes and in this specifically eyes to see and ears to hear apply most profoundly, but still this evidence is surely beyond debate. This burning bush is just too hot for the natural mind/heart. I am saying the many fulfilled and exact prophecies eliminate any possibility of atheism being rational and vise versa - theism can be totally rational if fact rather than religious philosophy is the foundation for it.alan
January 9, 2013
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LT you state in 237:
"One of the positive arguments for atheism is that the God you define (a definition that includes qualified omniscience, omnipotence, and such) is logically incoherent as a concept.,,,, there are several families of argumentation presenting positive cases for atheism being the actual state of the universe."
To which I submit that your perceived logical incoherency of Theism is not really a logical incoherency at all but that,,,
"the "paradox" is only a conflict between reality and your feeling of what reality "ought to be." Richard Feynman, in The Feynman Lectures on Physics, vol III, p. 18-9 (1965)
In other words the logical incoherency arises not from how reality is actually structured, but how you, as a naturalist, imagine reality ought to be structured
"It is often stated that of all the theories proposed in this century, the silliest is quantum theory. In fact, some say that the only thing that quantum theory has going for it is that it is unquestionably correct." Michio Kaku, in Hyperspace (1995), p. 263
But to counter the charge of incoherency for a omniscient, omnipotent Being (God) to account for reality, I want to draw a few pieces of evidence from my earlier posts on "Quantum Evidence for a Theistic Universe". One piece of evidence I submitted was:
Wave function Excerpt "wave functions form an abstract vector space",,, This vector space is infinite-dimensional, because there is no finite set of functions which can be added together in various combinations to create every possible function. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_function#Wave_functions_as_an_abstract_vector_space The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics in the Natural Sciences – Eugene Wigner – 1960 Excerpt: We now have, in physics, two theories of great power and interest: the theory of quantum phenomena and the theory of relativity.,,, The two theories operate with different mathematical concepts: the four dimensional Riemann space and the infinite dimensional Hilbert space, http://www.dartmouth.edu/~matc/MathDrama/reading/Wigner.html
Now many naturalists have tried to say that this infinite dimensional Hilbert space that describes the wave function of each photon particle is merely abstract (I guess it is logically incoherent for them to imagine that an actual infinity exists), but recent work has verified the reality of this infinite dimensional Hilbert space:
Direct measurement of the quantum wavefunction - June 2011 Excerpt: The wavefunction is the complex distribution used to completely describe a quantum system, and is central to quantum theory. But despite its fundamental role, it is typically introduced as an abstract element of the theory with no explicit definition.,,, Here we show that the wavefunction can be measured directly by the sequential measurement of two complementary variables of the system. The crux of our method is that the first measurement is performed in a gentle way through weak measurement so as not to invalidate the second. The result is that the real and imaginary components of the wavefunction appear directly on our measurement apparatus. We give an experimental example by directly measuring the transverse spatial wavefunction of a single photon, a task not previously realized by any method. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v474/n7350/full/nature10120.html
,,,The following paper mathematically corroborated the preceding experiment and cleaned up some pretty nasty probabilistic incongruities that arose from a purely statistical interpretation, i.e. it seems that stacking a ‘random infinity’, (parallel universes to explain quantum wave collapse), on top of another ‘random infinity’, to try to explain quantum entanglement (within parallel universes), leads to irreconcilable mathematical absurdities within quantum mechanics:,,,
Quantum Theory’s ‘Wavefunction’ Found to Be Real Physical Entity: Scientific American – November 2011 Excerpt: David Wallace, a philosopher of physics at the University of Oxford, UK, says that the theorem is the most important result in the foundations of quantum mechanics that he has seen in his 15-year professional career. “This strips away obscurity and shows you can’t have an interpretation of a quantum (wave) state as probabilistic,” he says. http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=quantum-theorys-wavefunction The quantum (wave) state cannot be interpreted statistically – November 2011 http://lanl.arxiv.org/abs/1111.3328
,,,It is also interesting to note that the following experiment actually encoded information into a photon while it was in its quantum wave state, thus destroying the notion, held by many, that the wave function was not ‘physically real’ but was merely ‘abstract’. i.e. How can information possibly be encoded into something that is not physically real but merely abstract?,,,
Ultra-Dense Optical Storage – on One Photon Excerpt: Researchers at the University of Rochester have made an optics breakthrough that allows them to encode an entire image’s worth of data into a photon, slow the image down for storage, and then retrieve the image intact. http://www.physorg.com/news88439430.html Information In Photon - Robert W. Boyd - slides from presentation http://www.quantumphotonics.uottawa.ca/assets/pdf/Boyd-Como-InPho.pdf Information in a Photon - Robert W. Boyd - 2010 Excerpt: By its conventional definition, a photon is one unit of excitation of a mode of the electromagnetic field. The modes of the electromagnetic field constitute a countably infinite set of basis functions, and in this sense the amount of information that can be impressed onto an individual photon is unlimited. http://www.pqeconference.com/pqe2011/abstractd/013.pdf
Moreover, the naturalist simply has no way to get behind 'infinitely fast' correlations found within quantum mechanics:
Looking Beyond Space and Time to Cope With Quantum Theory – (Oct. 28, 2012) Excerpt: To derive their inequality, which sets up a measurement of entanglement between four particles, the researchers considered what behaviours are possible for four particles that are connected by influences that stay hidden and that travel at some arbitrary finite speed. Mathematically (and mind-bogglingly), these constraints define an 80-dimensional object. The testable hidden influence inequality is the boundary of the shadow this 80-dimensional shape casts in 44 dimensions. The researchers showed that quantum predictions can lie outside this boundary, which means they are going against one of the assumptions. Outside the boundary, either the influences can’t stay hidden, or they must have infinite speed.,,, The remaining option is to accept that (quantum) influences must be infinitely fast,,, “Our result gives weight to the idea that quantum correlations somehow arise from outside spacetime, in the sense that no story in space and time can describe them,” says Nicolas Gisin, Professor at the University of Geneva, Switzerland,,, http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/10/121028142217.htm
bornagain77
January 9, 2013
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Andre: Im back at work now, so I dont have much time for games. Could you give a simple exapmple to illustrate the point ?Graham2
January 9, 2013
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With #248 LarTanner is now officially reaching for straws.George E.
January 9, 2013
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BA77, Better watch out for that American Vision outfit, they're preterists. :)Mung
January 9, 2013
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WJM, The rebuttal to your China analogy is that testimony of China's existence is different than testimony of God's existence. For instance, how many testimonials do you know of human beings who have had the direct, personal face-to-face interaction with the God you define in the OP? I'm looking for the anecdotal evidence of having met that particular and singular being you have define. Not Jesus. Not the Holy Spirit. Not angels. Not demons. Not witches. Not Nature. Only the God you define. So, let's start with the testimonial evidence of direct interaction with God.LarTanner
January 9, 2013
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Graham You are kidding right? The question is simple, can effects be greater than their causes?Andre
January 9, 2013
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LT said:
And what’s more, it’s no longer correct or proper for anyone to say as you do that “The belief that god does not exist…or that it isn’t more likely that god exists than not, can only be a position based on ignorance of the available evidence and argument for god, or a hyper-skeptical, intellectually dishonest, ideologically biased, a priori dismissal of all of the evidence for the existence of god.”
I hold that it is, based on an objective examination of the accumulative evidence and argument for both positions. Note that I'm not saying that this proves that god exists, any more than an aggregate acceptance of accumulative evidence and argument proves that the Earth is the center of the universe; but in the presence of such a glacier of testimony, evidence and argument, one requires clear and definite evidence for heliocentrism to balance or tip the scales in the other direction. We do not have such evidence for atheism that can balance the scales and then tip them in favor of atheism. Note, I didn't argue that agnosticism wasn't a rationally tenable position.
Let me know if I have this right. If so, I hope you understand that I think there are good reasons not to subscribe to your argument.
It's not people "seeming" to say it; they say it. History is full and replete with testimony and anecdote that support the existence of a god of some sort, which I've boiled down for my premise, throwing out (more or less) the "dirty bathwater" (and probably some clean) to keep the baby in the crib for debate. Let's also remember that I'm not claiming that it's not rational to doubt the existence of god based on good arguments to the contrary; but doubt just cannot carry the house from one side of the divide to the other - not rationally, anyway. I would like to hear your rebuttal to my China analogy, though.William J Murray
January 9, 2013
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LarTanner (241): “I have given you the means and resources to see for yourself that atheism is a tenable position for an intellectually honest, rational, and informed person.”
‘Logically incoherency’ is out. So which atheistic arguments remain valid?Box
January 9, 2013
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Andre @228: effect greater than the cause Could you define 'greater' ?Graham2
January 9, 2013
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BA77,
Now LT, are you really going to sit here and say that Naturalists ... have anything close to coherent answer to the creation event of the Big Bang?
No, I won't say this because it's irrelevant to WJM's OP, which is strictly about the positive case for atheism. Now, I don't know what question about the Big Bang you think needs answering; maybe you'll enlighten me. But are you saying theists already have the coherent answer to the problem? If so, is the answer settled and done or are there, just possibly, open questions about one or more aspects?LarTanner
January 9, 2013
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LT, you seem to be much more impressed with your referenced site than is warranted. For instance I noticed a picture about half way down the page: http://www.iep.utm.edu/wp-content/media/atheism.jpg Now LT, are you really going to sit here and say that Naturalists, after being drug kicking and screaming to the reality of a creation event of the entire universe, have anything close to coherent answer to the creation event of the Big Bang? If you believe they do you are hopelessly whistling in the dark. You may play word games in your imagination is you wish but it is just plain metaphysical folly to hold that they are coherent in their formulation!bornagain77
January 9, 2013
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WJM@239, I used the word "qualified" to acknowledge your "inasmuch as principles of logic allow." However, the problem is that it is unclear that the principles of logic allow such traits as omniscience and omnipotence. And of course, if you add too much qualification and make God the servant of logic, then the ontological argument goes out the proverbial window. But the main point, if you must address only one, is that I have not simply pointed you "towards a website full of atheistic arguments." I have given you the means and resources to see for yourself that atheism is a tenable position for an intellectually honest, rational, and informed person. And what's more, it's no longer correct or proper for anyone to say as you do that "The belief that god does not exist...or that it isn’t more likely that god exists than not, can only be a position based on ignorance of the available evidence and argument for god, or a hyper-skeptical, intellectually dishonest, ideologically biased, a priori dismissal of all of the evidence for the existence of god." I understand your argument on China, that the aggregated weight of people seeming to say that such a place exists is good enough for you. If I interpret you correctly, you are saying that individual testimonies (of angels, say) may be flawed or outright frauds but the sheer number of similar stories makes it likely that something like angels themselves do in fact exist. Let me know if I have this right. If so, I hope you understand that I think there are good reasons not to subscribe to your argument.LarTanner
January 9, 2013
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LT you ask: 'Can I ask you, as a believer, is this intimacy important in how you understand the deity and your relationship?' Well actually I've been wondering as to why I have not felt the overwhelming love of God as have so many people have told me about in their conversion experiences. All I know, from my personal experience, is that God was there for me in a tangible, caring, way at a very low point in my life that left no doubt whatsoever as to His reality. As to this 'overwhelming love' you are wondering about, perhaps it will help you, as it did me, to look at NDE's of people who were actually in the presence of God so that you might get a feel for the overwhelming love they are talking about: In The Presence Of Almighty God - The NDE of Mickey Robinson - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4045544 “The Light was brighter than hundreds of suns, but it did not hurt my eyes. I had never seen anything as luminous or as golden as this Light, and I immediately understood it was entirely composed of love, all directed at me. This wonderful, vibrant love was very personal, as you might describe secular love, but also sacred. Though I had never seen God, I recognized this light as the Light of God. But even the word God seemed too small to describe the magnificence of that presence. I was with my Creator, in holy communication with that presence. The Light was directed at me and through me; it surrounded me and pierced me. It existed just for me.” – testimony taken from Kimberly Clark Sharp’s Near Death Experience http://www.near-death.com/sharp.html video - Howard Storm continues to share his gripping story of his own near death experience. Today, he picks up just as Jesus was rescuing him from the horrors of Hell and carrying him into the glories of Heaven. http://www.daystar.com/ondemand/joni-heaven-howard-storm-j924/#.UKvFrYYsE31 Of note: If scientists want to find the source for the supernatural light which made the "3D - photographic negative" image on the Shroud I suggest they look to the thousands of documented Near-Death Experiences (NDE's) in Judeo-Christian cultures. It is in their testimonies that you will find mention of an indescribably bright 'Light' or 'Being of Light' who is always described as being of a much brighter intensity of light than the people had ever seen before. Ask the Experts: What Is a Near-Death Experience (NDE)? - article with video Excerpt: "Very often as they're moving through the tunnel, there's a very bright mystical light ... not like a light we're used to in our earthly lives. People call this mystical light, brilliant like a million times a million suns..." - Jeffery Long M.D. - has studied NDE's extensively http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/beyondbelief/experts-death-experience/story?id=14221154#.T_gydvW8jbI All people who have been in the presence of 'The Being of Light', while having a deep NDE, have no doubt whatsoever that the 'The Being of Light' they were in the presence of is none other than 'The Lord God Almighty' of heaven and earth. Near-death experiencers who have actually seen the brilliant light and experienced the ecstatic love, know without a doubt they have seen God. Once they enter into the light of God, they never want to leave. http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research21.html Near Death Experience – The Tunnel, The Light, The Life Review – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4200200/ further notes; Scientists say Turin Shroud is supernatural - December 2011 Excerpt: And in case there was any doubt about the preternatural degree of energy needed to make such distinct marks, the Enea report spells it out: "This degree of power cannot be reproduced by any normal UV source built to date." http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scientists-say-turin-shroud-is-supernatural-6279512.html Another very interesting point about the Shroud is, since the Shroud had to be extremely close to the body when the image was made, I mean ‘extremely close’ as to mean in an order of a few inches as opposed to a few, or several, feet as was once suggested by the camera obscura method proposed to be used by DaVinci, and also considering the lack of any distinctive shadow patterns on the image, it is apparent the only place this supernatural light could have possibly come from, that made the image on the Shroud, was directly from the body itself ! Yes, you read that last sentence right: THE SOURCE OF LIGHT WAS THE BODY ITSELF !!! God's crowning achievement for this universe was not when He created this universe. God’s crowning achievement for this universe was when He Himself inhabited the human body He had purposely created the whole universe for, to sanctify human beings unto Himself through the death and resurrection of his “Son” Jesus Christ. This is truly something which should fill anyone who reads this with awe. The wonder of it all is something I can scarcely begin to understand much less write about. Thus, I will finish this article with a scripture. Hebrews 2:14-15 "Since we, God's children, are human beings - made of flesh and blood - He became flesh and blood too by being born in human form; for only as a human being could He die and in dying break the power of the devil who had the power of death. Only in that way could He deliver those who through fear of death have been living all their lives as slaves to constant dread."bornagain77
January 9, 2013
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LT said:
Hold on. One of the positive arguments for atheism is that the God you define (a definition that includes qualified omniscience, omnipotence, and such) is logically incoherent as a concept.
Refer back to the OP:
omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent inasmuch as principles of logic allow; an interventionist as necessary to facilitate movement towards final cause and also inasmuch as logical principles are not violated; source of logic — “reason itself.”
One can hardly claim that these attributes are logically contradictory in terms of this argument if I specifically state that they only apply as far as logically permissable. This is why simply pointing towards a website full of atheistic arguments is problematical in this case; they don't address the "boiled down" concept of god I've posited here. As far as testimony is concerned: I've never been to China. I will likely never go to China. I consider the aggregate amount of testimony of people that have been there, mapmakers, and the overwhelming amount of anecdotal evidence available that support a conclusion that China exists to be sufficient for a finding of "China more likely exists than not" without having to examine any individual testimony or grill any individual about their supposed "China experience" - even if many different people describe China in very different terms. It would be unreasonable of me to say that it is not more likely than not that China exists in the face of the sheer weight of anecdotal and testimonial evidence avaialable.William J Murray
January 9, 2013
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Bornagain77, Thanks for the song link. I was noticing the lyrics:
I've been the one held down in chains Beneath the weight of all my shame I've been the one to believe That where I am You cannot reach
It's interesting how the voice of the lyric seem himself/herself as one who is bound and un-free, one who feels enornous shame. That must be very painful, emotionally. Yet, these emotionally-driven worship songs seem to focus intently on the body and on a deep, impassioned intimacy between the worshiper and the deity. Here, for instance, is part of the song, "The Potter's Hand":
Take me, mold me, use me, fill me. I give my life to the Potter's hand. Call me, guide me, lead me, walk beside me. I give my life to the Potter's hand.
Another example, this is from "Forever Reign":
Oh, I'm running to Your arms I'm running to Your arms The riches of Your love Will always be enough Nothing compares to Your embrace Light of the world forever reign
Can I ask you, as a believer, is this intimacy important in how you understand the deity and your relationship? No need to respond if it's too personal. Apologies if it is. I was just curious, as I said, from seeing the lyrics.LarTanner
January 9, 2013
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WJM @233,
Inaccurate – I never said there was no rational basis for atheism; however, “basis” isn’t all that is required for a rationally sound belief system. I have a rational basis for believing that the sun revolves around the Earth (confirmed, empirical observation), but there is more required than just a rational “basis” for that belief. What I argued is that atheism is a rationally untenable position – it is not ultimately justifiable.
I now see the distinction you are making. Thanks for clarifying.
IOW, arguments that god is not loving, not kind, a bad designer and inefficient are not germane to the argument I initiated, leaving atheists with very little in the way of positive argument or evidence.
Hold on. One of the positive arguments for atheism is that the God you define (a definition that includes qualified omniscience, omnipotence, and such) is logically incoherent as a concept. Yes, many have defended coherence, but that's beside the main point. That main point is that this is an example of a positive case being made and being rationally tenable. Another of the positive cases being made is that the God concept is unnecessary for explaining natural objects and occurrences. You can read the entire IEP summary, and its referenced sources, but my point is (again) that there are several families of argumentation presenting positive cases for atheism being the actual state of the universe. Finally,
The problem of simply dismissing thousands of years of testimony by billions of people whose testimony about other things would largely not be dismissed; atheism has no counterbalance to the immense weight of testimony on the subject.
I don't see the problem, partly because I don't think testimony is being dismissed. Quite the contrary. Surely, you agree that any testimony from any source ought to be evaluated, and evaluated in context. You'll also agree that no testimony or source can be given a pass in advance. This is part of taking testimony seriously, but another big part of taking testimony seriously is acknowledging that the testimony may be outright false, biased, mis-remembered, mis-characterized, or otherwise incomplete. It may also be 100 percent true. So, I personally take seriously the testimony of so-and-so that he was visited by an angel and had verses of scripture revealed to him. Should I believe this specific testimony? Should I believe it fully? Should I believe every detail? Or do I need to say only that it's possible that the event happened because angels are real and they sometimes do visit people and sometimes do reveal information to people? I also take seriously the testimony of so-and-so, who tells of the prophet who gained insight into all human suffering after some 40-50 days of prayer, meditation, and fasting. But again, what is the proper attitude to such testimonies, in specific and aggregated? Perhaps it would help if you had a specific testimonial you saw being dismissed, and how so dismissed. But I think your issue is more that the atheist can (and frequently does) take supernatural claims seriously and still reject (or doubt) that they are true. That's one thing that always strikes me about these discussions: To conclude atheism is always to be irrational and wrong.LarTanner
January 9, 2013
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A song for you G2 and LT: MercyMe - You Are I Am (Official Lyric Video) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JI4CPfuLW0bornagain77
January 9, 2013
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But the mystery of the Schroedinger equation goes even deeper to further reveal 'the spirituality of mathematics' to us.
Wheeler's Classic Delayed Choice Experiment: Excerpt: Now, for many billions of years the photon is in transit in region 3. Yet we can choose (many billions of years later) which experimental set up to employ – the single wide-focus, or the two narrowly focused instruments. We have chosen whether to know which side of the galaxy the photon passed by (by choosing whether to use the two-telescope set up or not, which are the instruments that would give us the information about which side of the galaxy the photon passed). We have delayed this choice until a time long after the particles "have passed by one side of the galaxy, or the other side of the galaxy, or both sides of the galaxy," so to speak. Yet, it seems paradoxically that our later choice of whether to obtain this information determines which side of the galaxy the light passed, so to speak, billions of years ago. So it seems that time has nothing to do with effects of quantum mechanics. And, indeed, the original thought experiment was not based on any analysis of how particles evolve and behave over time – it was based on the mathematics. This is what the mathematics predicted for a result, and this is exactly the result obtained in the laboratory. http://www.bottomlayer.com/bottom/basic_delayed_choice.htm "Thus one decides the photon shall have come by one route or by both routes after it has already done its travel" John A. Wheeler Alain Aspect speaks on John Wheeler's Delayed Choice Experiment - video http://vimeo.com/38508798 Genesis, Quantum Physics and Reality Excerpt: Simply put, an experiment on Earth can be made in such a way that it determines if one photon comes along either on the right or the left side or if it comes (as a wave) along both sides of the gravitational lens (of the galaxy) at the same time. However, how could the photons have known billions of years ago that someday there would be an earth with inhabitants on it, making just this experiment? ,,, This is big trouble for the multi-universe theory and for the "hidden-variables" approach. http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2000/PSCF3-00Zoeller-Greer.html.ori
Moreover,
Wheeler's Delayed Choice Experiment - 2010 Excerpt: The Delayed Choice experiment changes the boundary conditions of the Schrodinger equation after the particle enters the first beamsplitter. http://www.physics.drexel.edu/~bob/TermPapers/WheelerDelayed.pdf
But why should a mathematical equation even care when I decide to implement boundary conditions to look at a particle? Mathematical equations can't care about anything! Only God can care if and when I decide to look at any particular particle! In fact, as if the preceding was not enough to refute G2's 'maths just is' belief, 'the spirituality of mathematics' has now been revealed to a even deeper level through recent quantum entanglement experiments. The foundation of quantum mechanics within science is now so solid that researchers were able to bring forth this following proof from quantum entanglement experiments;
An experimental test of all theories with predictive power beyond quantum theory – May 2011 Excerpt: More precisely, we perform various measurements (conscious observations) on distant entangled photons, and, under the assumption that these measurements (conscious observations) are freely chosen (free will), we give a upper bound on how well any alternative theory could predict their outcomes.,,,, Hence, we can immediately refute any already considered or yet-to-be-proposed alternative model with more predictive power than this (Quantum Theory). http://arxiv.org/pdf/1105.0133.pdf Can quantum theory be improved? - July 23, 2012 Excerpt: However, in the new paper, the physicists have experimentally demonstrated that there cannot exist any alternative theory that increases the predictive probability of quantum theory by more than 0.165, with the only assumption being that measurement (conscious observation) parameters can be chosen independently (free will assumption) of the other parameters of the theory.,,, ,, the experimental results provide the tightest constraints yet on alternatives to quantum theory.,,, http://phys.org/news/2012-07-quantum-theory.html
Now this is completely unheard of in science as far as I know. i.e. That a mathematical description of reality would advance to the point that one can actually perform a experiment showing that your current mathematical theory will not be exceeded in predictive power by another future mathematical theory is simply unprecedented in the history of science! It is, in my unsolicited opinion, a very significant milestone in the history of science! Moreover, the belief that 'maths just is' is simply completely demolished by the fact that our best mathematical description of reality is absolutely dependent on the starting assumptions of conscious observation and free will. Moreover, since our best mathematical description of reality requires conscious observation and free will as starting assumptions, then this necessarily implies that consciousness and free will precede the mathematical equation. Of note: since our free will choices figure so prominently in how reality is actually found to be constructed in our understanding of quantum mechanics, I think a Christian perspective on just how important our choices are in this temporal life, in regards to our eternal destiny, is very fitting:
Is God Good? (Free will and the problem of evil) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rfd_1UAjeIA “There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell." - C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce Ravi Zacharias - How To Measure Your Choices - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Op_S5syhKI You must measure your choices by the measure of 1) eternity 2) morality 3) accountability 4) charity
A few more notes of the ‘spirituality of math’: https://uncommondescent.com/philosophy/is-atheism-rationally-justifiable/#comment-443433bornagain77
January 9, 2013
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Here is a tidied response to G2's 'maths just is' claim: The 'Spirituality of Mathematics' An atheist (G2) claimed, in response to my observation that mathematics must ultimately be based in God, that:
‘maths just is’
Well, contrary to the G2's commonly held belief that 'maths just is', the belief that 'maths just is' is now demonstrably false. First to be noted, there is a profound epistemological mystery as to why our minds should even be able to grasp and understand reality through the enterprise of mathematics in the first place:
Epistemology – Why Should The Human Mind Even Be Able To Comprehend Reality? – Stephen Meyer - video – (Notes in description) http://vimeo.com/32145998 "You find it strange that I consider the comprehensibility of the world (to the extent that we are authorized to speak of such a comprehensibility) as a miracle or as an eternal mystery. Well, a priori, one should expect a chaotic world, which cannot be grasped by the mind in any way.. the kind of order created by Newton's theory of gravitation, for example, is wholly different. Even if a man proposes the axioms of the theory, the success of such a project presupposes a high degree of ordering of the objective world, and this could not be expected a priori. That is the 'miracle' which is constantly reinforced as our knowledge expands." Albert Einstein - Goldman - Letters to Solovine p 131. The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics in the Natural Sciences - Eugene Wigner - 1960 Excerpt: ,,certainly it is hard to believe that our reasoning power was brought, by Darwin's process of natural selection, to the perfection which it seems to possess.,,, It is difficult to avoid the impression that a miracle confronts us here, quite comparable in its striking nature to the miracle that the human mind can string a thousand arguments together without getting itself into contradictions, or to the two miracles of the existence of laws of nature and of the human mind's capacity to divine them.,,, The miracle of the appropriateness of the language of mathematics for the formulation of the laws of physics is a wonderful gift which we neither understand nor deserve. We should be grateful for it and hope that it will remain valid in future research and that it will extend, for better or for worse, to our pleasure, even though perhaps also to our bafflement, to wide branches of learning. http://www.dartmouth.edu/~matc/MathDrama/reading/Wigner.html
Second in response to G2, in the last century Kurt Godel, in a breakthrough that is breathtaking, showed mathematics to be 'incomplete':
Kurt Gödel – Incompleteness Theorem – video http://www.metacafe.com/w/8462821 THE GOD OF THE MATHEMATICIANS - DAVID P. GOLDMAN - August 2010 Excerpt: we cannot construct an ontology that makes God dispensable. Secularists can dismiss this as a mere exercise within predefined rules of the game of mathematical logic, but that is sour grapes, for it was the secular side that hoped to substitute logic for God in the first place. Gödel's critique of the continuum hypothesis has the same implication as his incompleteness theorems: Mathematics never will create the sort of closed system that sorts reality into neat boxes. http://www.firstthings.com/article/2010/07/the-god-of-the-mathematicians Taking God Out of the Equation – Biblical Worldview – by Ron Tagliapietra – January 1, 2012 Excerpt: Kurt Gödel (1906–1978) proved that no logical systems (if they include the counting numbers) can have all three of the following properties. 1. Validity . . . all conclusions are reached by valid reasoning. 2. Consistency . . . no conclusions contradict any other conclusions. 3. Completeness . . . all statements made in the system are either true or false. The details filled a book, but the basic concept was simple and elegant. He summed it up this way: “Anything you can draw a circle around cannot explain itself without referring to something outside the circle—something you have to assume but cannot prove.” For this reason, his proof is also called the Incompleteness Theorem. Kurt Gödel had dropped a bomb on the foundations of mathematics. Math could not play the role of God as infinite and autonomous. It was shocking, though, that logic could prove that mathematics could not be its own ultimate foundation. Christians should not have been surprised. The first two conditions are true about math: it is valid and consistent. But only God fulfills the third condition. Only He is complete and therefore self-dependent (autonomous). God alone is “all in all” (1 Corinthians 15:28), “the beginning and the end” (Revelation 22:13). God is the ultimate authority (Hebrews 6:13), and in Christ are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge (Colossians 2:3). http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v7/n1/equation#
In other words, the truthfulness of any given mathematical equation is not found within the equation itself, but the truthfulness of any given mathematical equation, and indeed of all of math, must be derived from and source outside of the equation(s). Moreover, being that mathematical equations are completely transcendent of any space-time constraints, (i.e. mathematical equations are always true no matter what part of the universe you are in and are true regardless of whatever year it happens to be), then this outside source (cause) that guarantees the truthfulness of any mathematical equation must also be transcendent of any space-time constraints. Also of note, Godel's incompleteness theorem is hardly the only line of argumentation in this line of thought:
Not Understanding Nothing – A review of A Universe from Nothing – Edward Feser - June 2012 Excerpt: A critic might reasonably question the arguments for a divine first cause of the cosmos. But to ask “What caused God?” misses the whole reason classical philosophers thought his existence necessary in the first place. So when physicist Lawrence Krauss begins his new book by suggesting that to ask “Who created the creator?” suffices to dispatch traditional philosophical theology, we know it isn’t going to end well. ,,, ,,, But Krauss simply can’t see the “difference between arguing in favor of an eternally existing creator versus an eternally existing universe without one.” The difference, as the reader of Aristotle or Aquinas knows, is that the universe changes while the unmoved mover does not, or, as the Neoplatonist can tell you, that the universe is made up of parts while its source is absolutely one; or, as Leibniz could tell you, that the universe is contingent and God absolutely necessary. There is thus a principled reason for regarding God rather than the universe as the terminus of explanation. http://www.firstthings.com/article/2012/05/not-understanding-nothing
But of more interest as to drawing out the 'spirituality of mathematics', and refuting the 'maths just is' conception of mathematics, it is worthwhile to focus in on the Schroedinger equation:
Finely Tuned Big Bang, Elvis In The Multiverse, and the Schroedinger Equation – Granville Sewell – audio http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4233012
At the 4:00 minute mark of the preceding audio, Dr. Sewell comments on the ‘transcendent’ and ‘constant’ Schroedinger’s Equation;
‘In chapter 2, I talk at some length on the Schroedinger Equation which is called the fundamental equation of chemistry. It’s the equation that governs the behavior of the basic atomic particles subject to the basic forces of physics. This equation is a partial differential equation with a complex valued solution. By complex valued I don’t mean complicated, I mean involving solutions that are complex numbers, a+bi, which is extraordinary that the governing equation, basic equation, of physics, of chemistry, is a partial differential equation with complex valued solutions. There is absolutely no reason why the basic particles should obey such a equation that I can think of except that it results in elements and chemical compounds with extremely rich and useful chemical properties. In fact I don’t think anyone familiar with quantum mechanics would believe that we’re ever going to find a reason why it should obey such an equation, they just do! So we have this basic, really elegant mathematical equation, partial differential equation, which is my field of expertise, that governs the most basic particles of nature and there is absolutely no reason why, anyone knows of, why it does, it just does. British physicist Sir James Jeans said “From the intrinsic evidence of His creation, the great architect of the universe begins to appear as a pure mathematician”, so God is a mathematician to’.
i.e. the Materialist is at a complete loss to explain why this should be so, whereas the Christian Theist presupposes such ‘transcendent’ control of our temporal, material, reality,,,
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Of note: 'The Word' in Greek is Logos. Logos is the root word from which we derive our modern word 'logic'.bornagain77
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