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Is Atheism Rationally Justifiable?

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Atheism
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First, I’d like to thank Mr. Arrington for granting me posting privileges.  I consider it quite an honor, and I hope this post (and any future posts) warrants this trust.

Second, the following is an argument I think will help us to focus on a fundamental issue that lies behind ever so many of the debates here at Uncommon Descent, and elsewhere.  That is, is the sort of implicit or even explicit atheism that is so often built in on the ground floor of a “scientific” mindset truly rationally justifiable? Such cannot be assumed, it needs to be shown.

I’ll begin by defining some terms for the sake of this argument:

Definition of God (for the purpose of this thread): First cause, prime mover, root of being, objective source of human purpose (final cause) and resulting morality, source of free will, mind, consciousness; omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent inasmuch as principles of logic allow; an interventionist as necessary to facilitate movement towards final cause and also inasmuch as logical principles are not violated; source of logic — “reason itself.” (I am not talking in particular about any specifically defined religious interpretation of god, such as the Chrstian or Islamic God.)

Definition: Weak, or negative atheism is the lack of any belief that a god exists, and the position that a god probably doesn’t exist, and is not the positive belief that gods do not exist (strong atheism), and is not agnosticism (the lack of belief that god either does or does not exist and the further view that there is a lack of sufficient probability either way).  Strong atheism is the belief that no god or gods exist at all.

Definition: A worldview or mindset is rationally justified when it answers adequately to the facts of the real world as we experience or observe it, makes good sense and fits together logically, is simple but not simplistic, and honestly faces the issues and difficulties that all worldviews face.

Definition: Intellectual dishonesty occurs when (1) one deliberately mischaracterizes their position or view in order to avoid having to logically defend their actual views; and/or (2) when someone is arguing, or making statements against a position while remaining willfully ignorant about that position, and/or (3) when someone categorically and/or pejoratively dismisses all existent and/or potential evidence in favor of a conclusion they claim to be neutral about, whether they are familiar with that evidence or not.

These will be important as we consider:

Evidence in favor of God:  The following is a brief summary of the evidence that typically leads many people to make a general finding that a god (as described above) exists, even if variantly interpreted or culturally contextualized:

(1)
Anecdotal evidence for the apparently intelligently ordered anomalous, miraculous (defying expected natural processes and probabilities) events attributed to god, such as signs, supernatural events (e.g. Fatima, Guadeloupe, Paul’s Damascus Road Experience), or answers to prayers to god;

(2)
Testimonial evidence (first-hand accounts) of experience of such phenomena, including interactions with a god-like being or accounts of god-like interventions;  Also, the testimony of religious adherents of various specific gods can be counted as evidence of the god premised in this argument in the manner that various cultures can vary widely in their description of certain phenomena or experiences, and come up with widely variant “explanations”; what is interesting as evidence here, though, is the widespread crediting of similar kinds of phenomena and experience to a “god” of some sort (which might be the case of blind or ignorant people touching different parts of an elephant and thus describing “what the elephant is” in various ways). Such testimonial evidence can be counted in favor of the premise here, but cannot be held against it where it varies, because it is not testimony that such a god doesn’t exist.

(3)
The various Cosmological and Ontological Arguments for the existence of god;

(4)  The Strong Anthropic (or Fine Tuning) argument and other evidences for design of our world and of life in it;

(5) The empirical, scientific evidence assembled in support of the design arguments in #4 (such as recently persuaded Antony Flew — formerly the world’s leading philosophical atheist — that there is a god);

(6) The Moral arguments for the existence of god.

(7) Empirical and testimonial evidence of phenomena closely correlated to the existence of a god as described above, such as the survival of consciousness after death, and the existence of an afterlife realm; the evidence for interactions with correlated entities such as angels and demons (which seem to act to influence our free will towards or away from our human purpose), etc., gathered by various serious and scientific investigations into what is often referred to as the “paranormal”, including mediumship studies dating back to William Crooke and ongoing through the work at Pear Labs and the Scole Experiment, including consciousness-survival research published in the Lancet. While indirect, this evidence tends to support the proposition that god exists.

While the various arguments listed above have been subjected to counter-arguments and rebuttals of varying strengths and weaknesses across the ages, one must not lose sight that while there is much evidence of all sorts (as listed above) in favor of the existence of god; there is zero empirical evidence (to my knowledge) or and little in the way of rational argument that no such god exists.  In other words, decreasing the value of the arguments and evidence for god does not increase the value of the position that there is no god; it can only increase the reasonableness of the “weak atheist” (there isn’t enough evidence) or an agnostic position.

The commonly seen rebuttals to these argument are simply attempting to show weaknesses in or alternatives to the arguments themselves so that such arguments cannot be taken as demonstratively convincing (that god exists); such counter-arguments as a rule do not actually make the case that god (as described above) in fact does not exist.

The argument against weak atheism:

The above shows us that, ironically, strong atheism is a weak position. That is probably why atheism advocates seldom defend it in informed company. So, we must first focus on the “stronger” atheist position, the one they defend in public: “weak atheism,” generally described as absence of belief in god or gods. I will argue that it too is far weaker than is commonly recognized.

I know of no positive arguments for the strong “there is no god” position, other than the argument from evil which has been addressed by Boethius, Adams  and Platinga. Aside from that, there are only rebuttals/reactions to various “there is a god” arguments. This exemplifies how rebutting an argument does not eliminate it as evidence, it only offers an alternative perspective that one  can evaluate along with the original argument.   Depending on the strength of the rebuttal or alternative explanation, that particular positive evidence for god may be decreased in value, but there is no concurrent increase in the value of an argument against the existence of god (as described above).

If a “weak atheist” claims to “lack belief” because there is “no evidence for god,” he or she is necessarily being intellectually dishonest, because we certainly aren’t privy to all potential or available evidence. Are such atheists claiming to be omniscient? If not, then, a more modest and reasonable point would be that they are not aware of evidence for god. However, given what we have already seen, such “weak atheists” cannot genuinely claim to not know of “any” evidence for god after having perused any of the above evidence.  That is to say, there is evidence for god, just, they don’t accept it. But incredulity or hyper-skepticism on your part does not equate to “no evidence” on my part. Testimony from otherwise credible sources is not made “less credible” simply because the testimony is about something the listener personally finds to be in-credible; it is not intellectually honest to discredit the credibility of testimony only on the basis of the subject matter being debated.

Also, strong atheists often only refer to themselves as weak atheists because they have realized that the strong atheist position is an assertion they cannot support in informed company.  They do this to provide cover for their real view, which is an obvious form of intellectual dishonesty.  One can often discern when this is going on when the person ridicules belief in god or makes categorical dismissals about evidence they have never even seen; they believe there is no god, and so assume there can be no valid evidence for god, and advocate for that position rhetorically via ridicule.

Even if the “weak atheist” is not aware of any compelling evidence for god, he or she must know that we humans are quite limited in what we know, and may often be unaware of mistakes in what we think we know. That means that any categorical claim a “weak” atheist makes about the available evidence he or she is not privy to — that it is not credible or convincing — is again intellectually dishonest because you cannot justifiably make a categorical claim about something you have no knowledge of.

So, if we have a weak atheist who is aware of the existence of the above evidence and agrees that there might be more evidence they are not privy to; and who does not categorically assert problems with the evidence they have not yet seen; and who does not categorically dismiss the available evidence as “non-evidence” due to hyper-skeptical bias but rather states that the available evidence they have seen is not compelling towards a conclusion that god exists; then one must ask the following:

In the face of such overwhelming amounts of evidence — thousands of years of testimony and anecdotal stories; many serious arguments based on credible empirical evidence and apparently necessary logical premises and inferences; and, the complete lack of any generally successful attempt to make a sound argument that god in fact does not exist — one must ask: how can any intellectually honest person come to any conclusion other than that on the balance of the evidence, god probably existseven if god is poorly and diversely defined, and even if the experience of god is open to various interpretations and even to misunderstanding?

As an analogy: even if one has never personally experienced “love”; in the face of thousands of years of testimony and anecdotal stories that love exists, and empirical evidence supporting that certain physical states correspond to assertions of experiences of love, would it be intellectually honest to “lack belief” that love exists, or would it be intellectually honest to hold the view that even though one doesn’t experience love (or using the same argument, color, joy, dreams, etc.), that love probably exists – even if people are widely disparate in their explanation, description, or presentation of what love is?

Another analogy: because witnesses disagree in their description of a criminal suspect in a crime, or disagree about the particulars of the crime they witnessed, this doesn’t mean there is no criminal at all.  Depending on the testimony and evidence, one may hold that it is likely that a crime occurred, and so it is likely that a criminal exists, but that the arguments, testimony and evidence are  not enough reach a finding of “guilty” for any particular suspect.

As far as I am aware of there is no anecdotal or testimonial evidence that god does not exist (because lack of experience of a thing isn’t evidence the thing doesn’t exist), very little in the way of logical argument towards that conclusion, and there is a vast array of logical, anecdotal, testimonial and empirical evidence that god (at least as generally described above) does exist. Because a billion people did not witness a crime, and only a handful did, doesn’t tilt the scales in favor of no crime having been committed at all; imagine now a billion people that report witnessing a crime, and handful that did not, and you have something more comparable to the state of evidence concerning the existence of god.

Even if one doesn’t find that evidence compelling for for a final conclusion that god exists,  when one weighs the balance of the evidence for and against god, one should be willing to at least consider whether it is more probable that god (as described above) exists than that god does not exist.  Problematically (for the atheist), the view that it is more likely that god exists than not is not any sort of an atheistic position.

The argument against strong atheism:

Strong atheism is defined as the assertion that no god or gods exist whatsoever.

First, it is obvious that strong atheism cannot be logically supported, simply because it is impossible to prove (not in the absolute sense, but in the “sufficient evidence” sense). There may be evidence and good argument that certain gods, or kinds of gods, do not exist; but there is certainly no generally accepted evidence or successful argument that no significant, meaningful god or gods whatsoever exist, including the one as defined for this thread.

Instead of trying to actually support their own claim, strong atheists usually attempt to shift the burden of proof onto theists by essentially asking the theists to prove the atheist position wrong, implying or asserting that atheism must be held true by default.  That is, such try to argue that they have nothing to argue and can sit comfortably on their view as a default. However, that is not so; every worldview of consequence has a duty to show that it is factually adequate, coherent and explains reality powerfully and simply.  Strong atheism is not a default position; it is a positive assertion that no god or gods exist.  The default position is always “I don’t know” or true agnosticism.

Strong atheism is a sweeping, categorical assertion that something does not exist. As such, It has the job of proving a universal negative.  Perhaps this could be accomplished by showing the converse positive claim to be self-contradictory, and readers advocating strong atheism are invited to make their case based upon the definition of God at the top of this post.

Also, however unlikely it may seem to an atheist, it might be true that a god of some sort exists outside of the circle of what she or he knows or what the collective of atheists actually know. After all, we all know full well that “to err is human.” So, since the atheist could be mistaken or ignorant of the key fact or argument that would be decisive,  the strong atheist position unjustifiably excludes a potentially true explanation from consideration.  What is the rationally useful point of a metaphysical position that excludes a potentially true explanation from consideration?  Especially when it requires asserting an unsupportable universal negative? What, then, does strong atheism bring to the table of debate other than the potential for intractable error and denial of potential truth for the sake of a sweeping, unsupportable, universally negative assertion?

Conclusion: atheism is an untenable position for any intellectually honest, rational, and informed person. The belief that god (as described above, which is supported by the listed evidence) does not exist, or that it isn’t more likely that god exists than not, can only be a position based on ignorance of the available evidence and argument for god, or a hyper-skeptical, intellectually dishonest, ideologically biased, a priori dismissal of all of the evidence for the existence of god.

Comments
William J. Murray claims there is no rational basis for atheism of either the strong or weak varieties. The IEP articles answers Gann and shows that WJM is incorrect.
Inaccurate - I never said there was no rational basis for atheism; however, "basis" isn't all that is required for a rationally sound belief system. I have a rational basis for believing that the sun revolves around the Earth (confirmed, empirical observation), but there is more required than just a rational "basis" for that belief. What I argued is that atheism is a rationally untenable position - it is not ultimately justifiable. Also, you might want to look over how many of those arguments actually apply to the god as defined in the O.P.; for instance, the argument that god is bad or inefficient designer, or allows evil to exist, has no significant bearing on god as defined. I don't posit that god is all-loving, maximally efficient, always produces optimal design, or is even kind, because those qualities are not (1) generally convergent vectors in testimonial/anecdotal descriptions of god, and (2) are not, IMO, required by the arguments that conclude a necessary god-like being, and (3) are simply too vague and problematic to make a sensible case for one way or another. IOW, arguments that god is not loving, not kind, a bad designer and inefficient are not germane to the argument I initiated, leaving atheists with very little in the way of positive argument or evidence. Also, we have the problem of simply dismissing thousands of years of testimony by billions of people whose testimony about other things would largely not be dismissed; atheism has no counterbalance to the immense weight of testimony on the subject.William J Murray
January 9, 2013
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For me, the argument for why the brain cannot think, as presented by Reppert (see Kairosfocus post 143), is completely convincing. In post 151 I already stated my conviction. It boils down to this: matter is subject to natural law, while thinking – or mind - is subject to laws of an entirely different (mental) level (logic, knowledge, overview, coherence, purpose and so on). There is a cascade of impenetrable walls between these two totally different levels. One of them being the fact that we cannot reduce the laws of the mental level to natural law. Can someone explain to me why this is not totally convincing? Why is it not obvious that the brain cannot think? Why is physical causal closure, and so physicalism, materialism, emergentism etc. still considered to be option?Box
January 9, 2013
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KF at 122, I introduced IEP to demonstrate that there is a positive case for atheism that can be made and has been made. Steve Gann has been asking for such a case. William J. Murray claims there is no rational basis for atheism of either the strong or weak varieties. The IEP articles answers Gann and shows that WJM is incorrect. Certainly, Plantinga and others have their objections and defenses to some of these arguments, but having read Plantinga and responses to his work, his philosophy in not unassailable. That's what happens in scholarship. Who would be so bold to claim that these matters are settled permanently? JDH seems to have dropped out after my response to him at 138, which I take as a sign he agrees and has been corrected. But, again, if the question is whether atheism is rationally justified (or justifiable) the answer must be "yes." What's more, the rational basis for atheism is not inferior to the rational basis for deism/theism; in fact, many philosophers, scientists, and millions of other people have good reasons to think the case for atheism is better than the cases for deism/theism. Instead of focusing on the case for atheism, I am still foolishly interested in the positive case for intelligent design of biological life and/or the physical universe. I understand, poorly, the FSCI argument. I also realize that other arguments, such as "fine-tuning," are marshaled as indirect supports for ID. Does anyone else think to gain further acceptance and interest that ID requires additional, direct material studies and arguments? For instance, it does not seem to me that the "signature in the cell" argument has gained enough traction yet; what new data or examinations would bolster it? As for John, I know it primarily from the Douay-Rheims version of the vulgate, and also the KJV. To my ear, to my background, and to my understanding of its reception and use in history, its text relates a zealotry and ideology that many would consider intolerable if it were thought to be the scripture of another religion. The starkness of its vision is something only religion can achieve, I think.LarTanner
January 9, 2013
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BA77: My students? As in: "more work, sir . . ."? They didn't dare not be inquisitive and diligent! (Bawl they did on workload, until they realised what I was doing for them! Years later, they were still complex frequency domain pole-spotting as they looked around.) KFkairosfocus
January 9, 2013
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Graham2 I'm hoping you'll answer on why you believe that non-intelligence created intelligence.... please can you tell me how a rational mind could believe that effects can be greater than its causes?Andre
January 9, 2013
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Graham2 I'm hoping you'll answer on why you believe that non-intelligence created intelligence.... please can you tell me how a rational mind could believe that effects can be greater than its causes?Andre
January 9, 2013
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F/N: C15 BC, Moshe (compiler), Gen 1:1 - 3:
1 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. 3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.
C1, John 1:1 - 5:
1 In the beginning was the Word [THE LOGOS -- Reason and Communicative Expression Himself], and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life,1 and the life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. [ESV]
C17 - 8, Boyle et al: science is "thinking God's thoughts after him." C18, Euler: 0 = 1 + e^i*pi C20, Einstein: E = m*c^2 (Inter alia implying that "Fiat lux," serves as basis for a material world. Add in general Relativity and the cosmology of an observed cosmos with a credible beginning, one that is fine-tuned for the existence of C-chemistry, cell based life. Don't forget that little resonance effect that leads to the peculiar abundance of C and O, which with H get us to organic chemistry and water, bring to bear N and we are at proteins. He is the gateway to the rest of chemistry, including of course C. H, He, C, O are the first four elements in abundance, and N is not far away. Another of Sir Fred Hoyle's "put up job[s]"? ) C21, Sewell on Schroedinger:
I talk at some length on the Schroedinger Equation which is called the fundamental equation of chemistry. It’s the equation that governs the behavior of the basic atomic particles subject to the basic forces of physics. This equation is a partial differential equation with a complex valued solution. By complex valued I don’t mean complicated, I mean involving solutions that are complex numbers, a+bi, which is extraordinary that the governing equation, basic equation, of physics, of chemistry, is a partial differential equation with complex valued solutions. There is absolutely no reason why the basic particles should obey such a equation that I can think of except that it results in elements and chemical compounds with extremely rich and useful chemical properties. In fact I don’t think anyone familiar with quantum mechanics would believe that we’re ever going to find a reason why it should obey such an equation, they just do! So we have this basic, really elegant mathematical equation, partial differential equation, which is my field of expertise, that governs the most basic particles of nature and there is absolutely no reason why, anyone knows of, why it does, it just does. British physicist Sir James Jeans said “From the intrinsic evidence of His creation, the great architect of the universe begins to appear as a pure mathematician”, so God is a mathematician . . .
Open your eyes, mon, and LOOK! KFkairosfocus
January 9, 2013
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'maths just is',,, KF: Does make one shake their head!,,,What if one of your students told you 'maths just is'? I'm sure you've seen as such in your years of teaching,,, did such students who held such a non-inquisitive attitude fair well in the course of their studies?bornagain77
January 9, 2013
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G2: An apt illustration of willfully closing one's eyes. Yes, math is hard and we finite fallible thinkers struggle with it, that is why it can take centuries to advance in key areas. But, advance it does, and when we look at what we have achieved, we see that it points like a compass needle to a unity of the cosmos that in turn is eloquent testimony to a unified, rational source. And of this the Euler expression is as emblematic as we get: 0 = 1 + e^i*pi. All you can say in reply to such an astonishing result is "maths just is," and to try to dismiss the evident mind behind it as a "ghost" -- a term of contempt used to dismiss superstition. In the face of such a result and its implications, that is an epitaph of a contempt-driven, willfully purblind system of thought. Open your eyes, and LOOK! KFkairosfocus
January 9, 2013
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a few more notes of the 'spirituality of math':
Centrality of Earth Within The 4-Dimensional Space-Time of General Relativity - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/8421879 Dr. Quantum - Double Slit Experiment & Entanglement - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4096579
It is interesting to note that 'higher dimensional' mathematics had to be developed before Einstein could elucidate General Relativity, or even before Quantum Mechanics could be elucidated;
The Mathematics Of Higher Dimensionality – Gauss and Riemann – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/6199520/ The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics in the Natural Sciences - Eugene Wigner - 1960 Excerpt: We now have, in physics, two theories of great power and interest: the theory of quantum phenomena and the theory of relativity.,,, The two theories operate with different mathematical concepts: the four dimensional Riemann space and the infinite dimensional Hilbert space, http://www.dartmouth.edu/~matc/MathDrama/reading/Wigner.html
When one looks at the 4-D space time of relativity, and the centrality of conscious observation in quantum mechanics, a very interesting 'anomaly' pops out:
The Galileo Affair and the true "Center of the Universe" Excerpt: I find it extremely interesting, and strange, that quantum mechanics tells us that instantaneous quantum wave collapse to its 'uncertain' 3-D state is centered on each individual observer in the universe, whereas, 4-D space-time cosmology (General Relativity) tells us each 3-D point in the universe is central to the expansion of the universe. These findings of modern science are pretty much exactly what we would expect to see if this universe were indeed created, and sustained, from a higher dimension by a omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, eternal Being who knows everything that is happening everywhere in the universe at the same time. These findings certainly seem to go to the very heart of the age old question asked of many parents by their children, “How can God hear everybody’s prayers at the same time?”,,, i.e. Why should the expansion of the universe, or the quantum wave collapse of the entire universe, even care that you or I, or anyone else, should exist? Only Theism offers a rational explanation as to why you or I, or anyone else, should have such undeserved significance in such a vast universe: Psalm 33:13-15 The LORD looks from heaven; He sees all the sons of men. From the place of His dwelling He looks on all the inhabitants of the earth; He fashions their hearts individually; He considers all their works. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BHAcvrc913SgnPcDohwkPnN4kMJ9EDX-JJSkjc4AXmA/edit
The following is another very 'spiritual' finding from mathematics:
The Scale of The Universe - Part 2 - interactive graph (recently updated in 2012 with cool features) http://htwins.net/scale2/scale2.swf?bordercolor=white
The preceding interactive graph points out that the smallest scale visible to the human eye (as well as a human egg) is at 10^-4 meters, which 'just so happens' to be directly in the exponential center of all possible sizes of our physical reality (not just ‘nearly’ in the exponential center!). i.e. 10^-4 is, exponentially, right in the middle of 10^-35 meters, which is the smallest possible unit of length, which is Planck length, and 10^27 meters, which is the largest possible unit of 'observable' length since space-time was created in the Big Bang, which is the diameter of the universe. This is very interesting for, as far as I can tell, the limits to human vision (as well as the size of the human egg) could have, theoretically, been at very different positions than directly in the exponential middle; Here is another finding from mathematics that has very strong 'spiritual' implications: There is a mysterious 'higher dimensional' component to life:
The predominance of quarter-power (4-D) scaling in biology Excerpt: Many fundamental characteristics of organisms scale with body size as power laws of the form: Y = Yo M^b, where Y is some characteristic such as metabolic rate, stride length or life span, Yo is a normalization constant, M is body mass and b is the allometric scaling exponent. A longstanding puzzle in biology is why the exponent b is usually some simple multiple of 1/4 (4-Dimensional scaling) rather than a multiple of 1/3, as would be expected from Euclidean (3-Dimensional) scaling. http://www.nceas.ucsb.edu/~drewa/pubs/savage_v_2004_f18_257.pdf “Although living things occupy a three-dimensional space, their internal physiology and anatomy operate as if they were four-dimensional. Quarter-power scaling laws are perhaps as universal and as uniquely biological as the biochemical pathways of metabolism, the structure and function of the genetic code and the process of natural selection.,,, The conclusion here is inescapable, that the driving force for these invariant scaling laws cannot have been natural selection." Jerry Fodor and Massimo Piatelli-Palmarini, What Darwin Got Wrong (London: Profile Books, 2010), p. 78-79 https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/16037/
Though Jerry Fodor and Massimo Piatelli-Palmarini rightly find it inexplicable for 'random' Natural Selection to be the rational explanation for the invariant scaling of the physiology, and anatomy, of living things to four-dimensional parameters, they do not seem to fully realize the implications this 'four dimensional scaling' of living things presents. This 4-D scaling is something we should rightly expect from a Intelligent Design perspective. This is because Intelligent Design holds that ‘higher dimensional transcendent information’ is more foundational to life, and even to the universe itself, than either matter or energy are. This higher dimensional 'expectation' for life, from a Intelligent Design perspective, is directly opposed to the expectation of the Darwinian framework, which holds that information, and indeed even the essence of life itself, is merely an 'emergent' property of the 3-D material realm.
Earth’s crammed with heaven, And every common bush afire with God; But only he who sees, takes off his shoes, The rest sit round it and pluck blackberries. - Elizabeth Barrett Browning
Music and verse:
YOU ARE GOD ALONE, Philips, Craig and Dean http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OICArFHAa9c Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
bornagain77
January 9, 2013
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G2 claims "I dont see the work of the supernatural here, maths just is." Really, that is a pretty specific claim, care to overturn the incompleteness theorem? Or perhaps explain this? Finely Tuned Big Bang, Elvis In The Multiverse, and the Schroedinger Equation - Granville Sewell - audio http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4233012 At the 4:00 minute mark of the preceding audio, Dr. Sewell comments on the ‘transcendent’ and ‘constant’ Schroedinger’s Equation; ‘In chapter 2, I talk at some length on the Schroedinger Equation which is called the fundamental equation of chemistry. It’s the equation that governs the behavior of the basic atomic particles subject to the basic forces of physics. This equation is a partial differential equation with a complex valued solution. By complex valued I don’t mean complicated, I mean involving solutions that are complex numbers, a+bi, which is extraordinary that the governing equation, basic equation, of physics, of chemistry, is a partial differential equation with complex valued solutions. There is absolutely no reason why the basic particles should obey such a equation that I can think of except that it results in elements and chemical compounds with extremely rich and useful chemical properties. In fact I don’t think anyone familiar with quantum mechanics would believe that we’re ever going to find a reason why it should obey such an equation, they just do! So we have this basic, really elegant mathematical equation, partial differential equation, which is my field of expertise, that governs the most basic particles of nature and there is absolutely no reason why, anyone knows of, why it does, it just does. British physicist Sir James Jeans said “From the intrinsic evidence of His creation, the great architect of the universe begins to appear as a pure mathematician”, so God is a mathematician to’. i.e. the Materialist is at a complete loss to explain why this should be so, whereas the Christian Theist presupposes such ‘transcendent’ control of our temporal, material, reality,,, John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.bornagain77
January 9, 2013
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Thanks KF, G2 you state: "When bornagain77 claimed math equations came from God, I took this as an aberration, but apparantly not." a few footnotes to KF's excellent remarks: Mathematics is the language with which God has written the universe. Galileo Galilei "You find it strange that I consider the comprehensibility of the world (to the extent that we are authorized to speak of such a comprehensibility) as a miracle or as an eternal mystery. Well, a priori, one should expect a chaotic world, which cannot be grasped by the mind in any way.. the kind of order created by Newton's theory of gravitation, for example, is wholly different. Even if a man proposes the axioms of the theory, the success of such a project presupposes a high degree of ordering of the objective world, and this could not be expected a priori. That is the 'miracle' which is constantly reinforced as our knowledge expands." Albert Einstein - Goldman - Letters to Solovine p 131. The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics in the Natural Sciences - Eugene Wigner - 1960 Excerpt: ,,certainly it is hard to believe that our reasoning power was brought, by Darwin's process of natural selection, to the perfection which it seems to possess.,,, It is difficult to avoid the impression that a miracle confronts us here, quite comparable in its striking nature to the miracle that the human mind can string a thousand arguments together without getting itself into contradictions, or to the two miracles of the existence of laws of nature and of the human mind's capacity to divine them.,,, The miracle of the appropriateness of the language of mathematics for the formulation of the laws of physics is a wonderful gift which we neither understand nor deserve. We should be grateful for it and hope that it will remain valid in future research and that it will extend, for better or for worse, to our pleasure, even though perhaps also to our bafflement, to wide branches of learning. http://www.dartmouth.edu/~matc/MathDrama/reading/Wigner.html Mario Livio, or the Poverty of Atheist Philosophy: A Review of “Is God a Mathematician?” Excerpt: In short, Wigner committed a treason against science. He didn’t, in an Einsteinian fashion, just declare a personal faith in a God that had only marginal relevance to his scientific studies. He went farther than that: he implied that science was impossible and inexplicable without accepting a higher reality, transcending the mind of man and its capabilities for reasoning and experimentation. The short and ostensibly innocent article faced some really violent reactions; some objected to the conclusions in it, others to the premises, and still others refused to even deal with it, pretending it had never been written. But Wigner remained right about one thing: Despite the many attempts, no one could give a rational explanation for what Wigner described as the “uncanny ability of mathematics to describe and predict accurately the physical world.” http://americanvision.org/4333/mario-livio-or-the-poverty-of-atheist-philosophy-a-review-of-is-god-a-mathematician/ Kurt Gödel - Incompleteness Theorem - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/8462821 Taking God Out of the Equation - Biblical Worldview - by Ron Tagliapietra - January 1, 2012 Excerpt: Kurt Gödel (1906–1978) proved that no logical systems (if they include the counting numbers) can have all three of the following properties. 1. Validity . . . all conclusions are reached by valid reasoning. 2. Consistency . . . no conclusions contradict any other conclusions. 3. Completeness . . . all statements made in the system are either true or false. The details filled a book, but the basic concept was simple and elegant. He summed it up this way: “Anything you can draw a circle around cannot explain itself without referring to something outside the circle—something you have to assume but cannot prove.” For this reason, his proof is also called the Incompleteness Theorem. Kurt Gödel had dropped a bomb on the foundations of mathematics. Math could not play the role of God as infinite and autonomous. It was shocking, though, that logic could prove that mathematics could not be its own ultimate foundation. Christians should not have been surprised. The first two conditions are true about math: it is valid and consistent. But only God fulfills the third condition. Only He is complete and therefore self-dependent (autonomous). God alone is “all in all” (1 Corinthians 15:28), “the beginning and the end” (Revelation 22:13). God is the ultimate authority (Hebrews 6:13), and in Christ are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge (Colossians 2:3). http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v7/n1/equation# The God of the Mathematicians - Goldman Excerpt: As Gödel told Hao Wang, “Einstein’s religion [was] more abstract, like Spinoza and Indian philosophy. Spinoza’s god is less than a person; mine is more than a person; because God can play the role of a person.” - Kurt Gödel - (Gödel is considered one of the greatest logicians who ever existed) http://www.firstthings.com/article/2010/07/the-god-of-the-mathematicians This following site is a easy to use, and understand, interactive website that takes the user through what is termed 'Presuppositional apologetics'. The website clearly shows that our use of the laws of logic, mathematics, science and morality cannot be accounted for unless we believe in God who guarantees our perceptions and reasoning are trustworthy in the first place. Presuppositional Apologetics - easy to use interactive website http://www.proofthatgodexists.org/index.php The Great Debate: Does God Exist? - Justin Holcomb - audio of the 1985 debate available on the site Excerpt: The transcendental proof for God’s existence is that without Him it is impossible to prove anything. The atheist worldview is irrational and cannot consistently provide the preconditions of intelligible experience, science, logic, or morality. The atheist worldview cannot allow for laws of logic, the uniformity of nature, the ability for the mind to understand the world, and moral absolutes. In that sense the atheist worldview cannot account for our debate tonight.,,, http://theresurgence.com/2012/01/17/the-great-debate-does-god-exist Random Chaos vs. Uniformity Of Nature - Presuppositional Apologetics - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/6853139 Alan Turing and Kurt Godel - Incompleteness Theorem and Human Intuition - video (notes in video description) http://www.metacafe.com/watch/8516356/ Sir Isaac Newton stated this in regards to his own discoveries: I have a fundamental belief in the Bible as the Word of God, written by men who were inspired. I study the Bible daily…. All my discoveries have been made in an answer to prayer. — Sir Isaac Newton (1642-1727), considered by many to be the greatest scientist of all time etc.. etc..bornagain77
January 9, 2013
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One wonders, if all we are is brains that evolved pattern recognition and survival skills that may or may not reflect anything true about the world, but only necessarily reflect an advantage in long-term reproductive success, why do materialist atheists (or kantian naturalists) bother arguing against any other philosophy or set of beliefs on any other grounds whatsoever? If there is no objective standard of truth, or morality, then what we are left with is whatever our brains happen to have found useful for our evolutionary success. It is obvious that belief in god and spiritual beliefs in general are great evolutionary successes, so what is the basis for argument against them? Why the outrage against religious persecution or laws based on morality? Why ridicule ID and theism in general? Why make arguments here when the only naturalist or materialist question worth asking is: "How many descendants are you responsible for?" I have 6 children and 12 grand-children; by any naturalist or materialist standard (that means anything in terms of their philosophy), my belief system is valid on that account. Yet, here they cling, scratching and clawing and demeaning and philosophizing, ranting and ridiculing and debating as if whatever they are arguing for matters in some way other than the only meaningful measurement available in their philosophy: what is your progeny success rate?William J Murray
January 9, 2013
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KF: I work in the field of structural analysis, writing software to solve large systems of (sometimes) non-linear equations, so I am familiar with some of this stuff. Yes, maths is pretty cool stuff, I revel in it, often just for the enjoyment, but at the same time I am often struck by just how ineffective it is: Its only just recently that the 4-colour problem was solved. You cant generate closed functions to integrate the simplest problems, eg: the length of an ellipse. I dont see the work of the supernatural here, maths just is. It doesnt make it any less cool, it just removes any ghosts.Graham2
January 9, 2013
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G2: You keep coming across as one who thinks that his particular perspective is and is self evidently true, and so if someone else has a different view it is wrong or even absurd. That attitude is sophomoric at best. Your implicit dismissal of the significance of mathematics in a theistic view, just above, seems to be a case in point; one among several. Some days ago, I took up the issue of mathematics' unity and relevance as signs of an underlying Reason behind reality. I think it can be taken for granted that mathematics is a big deal in Science and other serious endeavours, and that there have been those who remark on the "unreasonable effectiveness of Mathematics," in Science and other fields. Could that be trying to tell us something, something about the underlying integrated and intelligible Reason behind our cosmos -- as in not a chaos? Th3e essence of mathematics is that on a few core assumptions, called axioms, it deduces consequences by logic. A capital instance was in Einstein's exploration of early relativity, in which he came across a result for the energy of a moving body, that had a zero velocity term, which -- at least, as it came across to us in Physics classes and texts -- was unexpected. The solution was to infer that there is a rest-energy related to mass, E = m*c^2. A decade or so later, he ran across the tendency of the General Relativity equations to project an expanding or collapsing universe, and felt this a defect, inserting a control term that could set it to non-expansion. Lo and behold, ten years still later, the Hubble results came out and bang, we have cosmological expansion. The control term is till there, but now as the "yeast bubbler" feature that governs the expansion. There are many other cases. For some reason, reality seems mathematically connected, thus logically and rationally connected. Have you ever observed that reason tends to reside in minds? Does that not raise the hairs on the back of your neck when you look at the way such is spread all across reality as we understand it? In that context, look at how the rise of geometry led to the significance of pi. The operation of taking a square root -- what is the side of a square of a given area, then led to the notion of an imaginary root of a negative number. The area under 1/x behaves logarithmically, and so we have a natural log linked to the area under that curve beyond unity. (Where of course Cartesian coordinates are ever so interesting.) Mix in a bit of calculus, sequences, series and the idea of sines and cosines to get triangles, then do series expansions that ecxpress sine, cosine and exponential functions. We are at e^i*theta = cos theta plus i sine theta. Make the angle rotate, theta = i*omega*t. We have a route into Fourier frequency domain analysis [frequency components of time domain events . . . ], Laplace transient analysis, the dynamic behaviour of systems, and so much more. Indeed, this gateway leads to a situation where for years I lived more in this domain than time domain, at least analytically. And I used to love to use the heavy rubber sheet picture to teach my students how to see the behaviour of systems, then set them to pole spotting. That leads into instrumentation and control. Mix in Z transforms and memory/delay elements in registers with arithmetic/logic units to manipulate, and the whole field of digital signal processing lies open before you. Come back tot the little expression on the sinusoidal and the complex exponential forms of the complex number on the unit circle in the Argand plane. (Which is BTW, a way to deal with 2-d vector analysis. I*x is a way of saying rotate the position vector 0-x by 90 degrees anticlockwise i that plane. Do it again and you get - 0-x. The meaning of sq rt (-1) drops out.) Work out for pi rads, the radian being the natural measure of angle. Bang, we see an astonishing result: 0 = 1 + e^i*pi Math comes all back together from ever so many diverse fields and unifies the five most important numbers and three most important operations in one equation. And we see that what was apparently cobbled together bit by bit to go here and there is all of a piece. if that does not point to our being explorers and re-discoverers of something that somebody else -- someone who is Reason himself -- thought of before the world began, I don't know what is. The best explanation I know is that, built into the logical structure of reality is an astonishing unity that points to a unifying highly mathematical mind behind reality. You may discard or deride this, but that does not make it any less so. Even if you choose to reject such thinking, at least have the respect to recognise that others are going to see this as the best explanation for it, and that they are not just making up silly notions out of whole cloth. Complex, powerful coherence like that that is so strongly anchored to the reality of the world as we have explored it, is pointing somewhere, somewhere that looks a lot like the same where that we see when we find the astonishing fine tuning of the cosmos that supports the sort of life that we enjoy. And again the same where that we see when we notice that -- of all things -- he same locations that are best fitted to such life as we are are locations that practically beg us to explore and discover the world through math and sci. And then look at how we came up with digital computers from the 1830's to 1940's, then, bang in the 1950's - 60's we find the same sort of digital info processing in the heart of the living cell. More and more put up jobs all pointing in the same direction, as Sir Fred Hoyle would say. I hope that your encounter with UD will at least help broaden your thinking. KFkairosfocus
January 9, 2013
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Timeaus: It has been an interesting trip for me. I actually admire your patience. What I didnt appreciate was the role the supernatural played in the lives of people here, they are swimming in it. When bornagain77 claimed math equations came from God, I took this as an aberration, but apparantly not. This now forms a sort of benchmark for me. If you take ID seriously, good luck, I think you may need it.Graham2
January 9, 2013
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F/N 2: Here is a simplified version of an ontological argument in the BCNT. Also, forgive, as it seems my built-in noun-verb agreement module is buggy these days.kairosfocus
January 9, 2013
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F/N: Blackwell Companion to nat theol, at Amazon, paper -- hard cover is over US$ 200 [I guess, mostly for libraries . . . I could buy the soft cover and get it hard bound for a lot less [or could even pull my volume on the topic of book binding and try my hand . . . ]), as is now distressingly typical for too many text and reference works. BTW, I see Kindle prices are creeping up too, to match the paperback prices of books. Looks like the contention is that it is the cost of services to create the work, not paper and warehousing, that are driving costs. I guess in a world of highways and steel-frame construction computer managed warehouses that can ship from anywhere, that is the trend. Somehow, I cannot slip the feeling that print is doomed and the future belongs to the EPUB survey read on a sub- US$100 tablet, maybe 7 - 8" diagonal. In short, long term, bet on server farms. Unless some idiot launches an EMP attack . . .kairosfocus
January 9, 2013
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G2: Perhaps, a step back from the cut and thrust of point exchanges will be helpful. By now, it should be obvious to you that you are in a forum where several participants are present or former college professors, lecturers or holders of advanced degrees who are making a living doing something else (usually, software engineering or consultancy or the like). There are a few medical practitioners, some engineers and applied scientists, etc. I think there are some lawyers hanging around. Some, are the sort of amateur who used to carry philosophy and science until the modern university emerged and you could make a decent living from scholarship. I should not neglect, the sort of people who have bookshelves measured by the hundreds of shelf feet, and perhaps rent warehousing space for more -- and not on trashy topics either. In this particular thread you have a concentration of people with a particular interest in philosophy and in the history and pivotal ideas of science and natural theology. These are not dumb people, nor are they ignorant in general or on this topic. We are not insane. Nor are we unduly wicked -- any orthodox Christian (and most other reasonable people) will agree that we are finite, fallible, morally struggling and too often ill-willed. All of which influences unfortunately potentially have epistemological consequences. Which we are aware of and strive to address seriously. In addition, if you will review the thread above, you will see that most references to the Bible come from objectors, or in response to objectors. A passing acquaintance with the general tone of say AIG, ICR, CMI or even RTB, will show that the patterns of thought are quite different. (On a passing note, LT, John is not antisemitic [take a read here noting the obvious about the name of the author . . . ], but has indisputably unfortunately been abused by those who are; which fits in under some pretty grim warnings on scripture twisting by the ignorant, foolish, ill-advised and unstable. It is following in the Hebraic prophetic tradition of afflicting the comfortable, especially manifestly corrupt power elites. Think about a power culture where a ruler gaols a man for rebuking his seducing and taking his brother's wife and provoking a foolish [and losing] war with his former wife's father then --on being inflamed by a provocative dance by the 14 year old daughter of his stolen wife, promises half the kingdom. Head on a platter, duly delivered with not a voice of recorded protest from the assembled elites. Multiply, by a governor who finds a man innocent, then sends him to his death for reasons of fear of the power balances. Where, a generation later, when another man is brought before a successor on a similar accusation of stirring up trouble by denouncing the elites and their institutions, there is an obvious Instruction lurking so the man is "only" whipped. Multiply by the obvious tensions between the Judaeans and the Galileans. Then, pause. Look in a fair-minded fashion at the denunciations of Gentile power elites and culture in the NT, especially the cumulative case in Rom 1 - 3 (including the implicit denunciation of the current emperor, before whom Paul would later be tried, it seems twice). You will have a choice: NT Christianity is guilty of misanthropy, or it is deeply concerned to call all of humanity to repentance and reform. A fair and charitable reading will at once show that the latter reading holds a much better warrant. [And, I think to be fair minded, you need to read here, which is written on behalf of Christians and Jews in my region, in response to regional attacks on Israel/Zionism and Jews, by cultural Marxists full of the anticolonialist narrative who have formed an unholy alliance with the Jihadis. A part of the motive for that stance, which will cost me in dealings with elites influenced by that pattern of thought, is precisely the spiritual and general respect for Israel taught in the same NT that is so often despised as the root of antisemitism.]) It should be quite clear to you that modern science was born in the matrix of the Judaeo-Christian worldview, and that that worldview specifically -- and by contrast with the direction of influences driven by other worldviews -- contributed pivotal ideas, respect for reason and the potential accuracy and generality of observations and inductive generalisations, etc. Indeed, the peculiar term, LAW of Nature, should be a beacon pointing to that influence. As was already highlighted from Newton in his General Scholium to Principia. That was written in Latin to the elites. Let me now cite what he wrote at the turn of the 1700's in English, in Opticks, Query 31:
Now by the help of [[the laws of motion], all material Things seem to have been composed of the hard and solid Particles above-mention'd, variously associated in the first Creation by the Counsel of an intelligent Agent. For it became him who created them to set them in order. And if he did so, it's unphilosophical to seek for any other Origin of the World, or to pretend that it might arise out of a Chaos by the mere Laws of Nature; though being once form'd, it may continue by those Laws for many Ages . . . . And if natural Philosophy in all its Parts, by pursuing this Method, shall at length be perfected, the Bounds of Moral Philosophy will be also enlarged. For so far as we can know by natural Philosophy what is the first Cause, what Power he has over us, and what Benefits we receive from him, so far our Duty towards him, as well as that towards one another, will appear to us by the Light of Nature. ”
This, BTW, is the exact same context in which Newton laid out the summary of the methods of scientific investigation that is echoed in traditional school definitions. The sort that have not been loaded up with gratuitous a priori materialism at the behest of today's new magisterium in the holy lab coat. (Cf. here on for just what I mean when I say this.) Let me clip that definition in its context, which should also serve to highlight the epistemological subtleties involved:
As in Mathematicks, so in Natural Philosophy, the Investigation of difficult Things by the Method of Analysis, ought ever to precede the Method of Composition. This Analysis consists in making Experiments and Observations, and in drawing general Conclusions from them by Induction, and admitting of no Objections against the Conclusions, but such as are taken from Experiments, or other certain Truths. For Hypotheses are not to be regarded in experimental Philosophy. And although the arguing from Experiments and Observations by Induction be no Demonstration of general Conclusions; yet it is the best way of arguing which the Nature of Things admits of, and may be looked upon as so much the stronger, by how much the Induction is more general. And if no Exception occur from Phaenomena, the Conclusion may be pronounced generally. But if at any time afterwards any Exception shall occur from Experiments, it may then begin to be pronounced with such Exceptions as occur. By this way of Analysis we may proceed from Compounds to Ingredients, and from Motions to the Forces producing them; and in general, from Effects to their Causes, and from particular Causes to more general ones, till the Argument end in the most general. This is the Method of Analysis: And the Synthesis consists in assuming the Causes discover'd, and establish'd as Principles, and by them explaining the Phaenomena proceeding from them, and proving the Explanations.
The inescapable provisionality of scientific reasoning on empirical evidence is clearly highlighted. We also see the hint that topics in science will be subject to debate and controversy on the strength of the conclusions drawn, in light of points where limitations or even possible corrections may be emerging. A fair reading of what design theory is about, will show that this is the context of the rise of this school of thought. (Have you read even the NWE 101 on ID yet? If so, how has it affected your views, why, especially the clip from Hoyle in which he introduces a certain term?) I hope this will be helpful to you. KFkairosfocus
January 8, 2013
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Graham2 (195): I made no demands. I offered a trade. You have declined the trade. Therefore, you won't get my answer to your question. It's just a business decision; no hard feelings on my part. You write: "It [science] simply has not, in many years of investigation, provided evidence for the supernatural." This is a much weaker claim than you originally made. Your original claim was that belief in a disembodied intelligence is "preposterous" and has been rendered incredible by modern science. It was that claim that I contested, not the one above. If you are withdrawing your original claim, please summon the intellectual courage to say so directly. Just to be clear: I'm not offended that you are an atheist, reject ID, etc. No position offends me, even if I strongly disagree with it, if it's held in an intellectually responsible way. What offends me is lack of argumentative responsibility. For example, you speak publically about ID when you don't know what it's about, and apparently have no intention of doing any research to find out what it's about. You apparently intend to ignore all corrections regarding ID (as you've ignored mine) and continue to argue against a straw man. The only reasonable public responses to such an attitude are indignation and contempt. I think I've expressed my indignation already, so now I'll switch to contempt, and ignore your discussion of ID as uninformed and therefore irrelevant.Timaeus
January 8, 2013
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Correction 2.) The 1 science question was to make it clear that there is more than one science doing the rounds…. there* is “just so” science (neo-Darwinian evolution), pseudo-science (evolutionary-psychology), and real science (Newtonian science)Andre
January 8, 2013
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Graham 2 1.) Is it at all possible for you to give me any kind of answer on why you believe that non-intelligence (cause) gave rise to intelligence (effect)even if the science that you so steadfastly believe in clearly indicates that effects can never be greater than its cause. Please Graham2 I need to understand the thought process on why you choose to accept this position that it can despite all the evidence saying it can't. 2.) The 1 science question was to make it clear that there is more than one science doing the rounds.... they're is "just so" science (neo-Darwinian evolution), pseudo-science (evolutionary-psychology), and real science ( Newtonian science)Andre
January 8, 2013
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This is your brain on nominalism. It's decidedly different from my brain on nominalism.Mung
January 8, 2013
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But we’re constantly receiving corrections, both from the world and from other people. We are not only fallible but also “corrigible” (correctable). I don’t see what’s “self-defeating” about this. I mean, am I supposed to think that either there are rock-solid absolutes or else it’s all arbitrary and subjective? How does that dichotomy make any sense?
Let me strip out the misdirection of non-existent secondary entities (as per your philosophy): Flawed brain interprets data received by flawed brain from what flawed brain interprets as other flawed brains and uses flawed brain in an attempt to correct flawed brain. Well, it is - after all - the product of an admittedly flawed brain.William J Murray
January 8, 2013
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Kantian Naturalist
Nominalism could be construed in two different ways: as denying that there are generals (but only particulars) or as denying that there are abstracta but only concreta. Or one might take the view that there are only concrete particulars, which is in fact my view.
Excuse me please, but this is the deadliest of all intellectual errors. Our knowledge is not limited to concrete particulars. On the contrary, it is only by means of abstract concepts that we can understand what is common to all particular humans, trees, spoons, and chairs.
Or more precisely, I think that generals and abstracta play a fundamentally important role in structuring our thought and discourse about the world, but that not all of our thought and discourse about the world really “makes contact” with the world of concrete particulars.
If, as you mistakenly believe, our knowledge is limited to concrete particulars, then our thought and discourse would consist solely of our own private experiences. Under those circumstances, there could be no such thing as reliable knowledge about the real world, a misguided claim that I refuted earlier on this thread.
The thought now is this: while the conceptual scheme of an animal mind can only picture, the conceptual scheme of normal mature human minds not only pictures but also contains numerous other dimensions as well.
Excuse me again, but you are contradicting your own philosophy. In your first paragraph, you argue that we can apprehend only concrete particulars, which would mean that we can know only “this” mind or “that” human. Now, in referring to “normal human minds,” you reverse course and acknowledge a knowable universal that transcends the world of particulars--an intellectual faculty common to all humans.
So, two kinds of external constraint: causal constraint on embodied perception, and rational constraint on embodied thought; the former constraint grounded in the physical environment, the latter constraint grounded in the social environment. This is a great view! What’s not to like about this?
It does not correspond to reality.StephenB
January 8, 2013
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In re: William Murray @ 197
So, without the schizophrenic reference to non-existent commodities (a separate “I” and a separate means of evaluation), you are saying: “Flawed brain is going to use flawed brain to assess the quality of flawed brain’s output.” Good luck with that self-defeating position.
But we're constantly receiving corrections, both from the world and from other people. We are not only fallible but also "corrigible" (correctable). I don't see what's "self-defeating" about this. I mean, am I supposed to think that either there are rock-solid absolutes or else it's all arbitrary and subjective? How does that dichotomy make any sense?Kantian Naturalist
January 8, 2013
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For a much simpler 'common sense' way to understand, I suggest this video: What Properties Must the Cause of the Universe Have? - William Lane Craig - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SZWInkDIVIbornagain77
January 8, 2013
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The following solidified Wigner’s work from another angle;
“I’m going to talk about the Bell inequality, and more importantly a new inequality that you might not have heard of called the Leggett inequality, that was recently measured. It was actually formulated almost 30 years ago by Professor Leggett, who is a Nobel Prize winner, but it wasn’t tested until about a year and a half ago (in 2007), when an article appeared in Nature, that the measurement was made by this prominent quantum group in Vienna led by Anton Zeilinger, which they measured the Leggett inequality, which actually goes a step deeper than the Bell inequality and rules out any possible interpretation other than consciousness creates reality when the measurement is made.” – Bernard Haisch, Ph.D., Calphysics Institute, is an astrophysicist and author of over 130 scientific publications.Preceding quote taken from this following video; Quantum Mechanics and Consciousness - A New Measurement - Bernard Haisch, Ph.D (Shortened version of entire video with notes in description of video) http://vimeo.com/37517080 Quantum physics says goodbye to reality - Apr 20, 2007 Excerpt: Many realizations of the thought experiment have indeed verified the violation of Bell's inequality. These have ruled out all hidden-variables theories based on joint assumptions of realism, meaning that reality exists when we are not observing it; and locality, meaning that separated events cannot influence one another instantaneously. But a violation of Bell's inequality does not tell specifically which assumption – realism, locality or both – is discordant with quantum mechanics. Markus Aspelmeyer, Anton Zeilinger and colleagues from the University of Vienna, however, have now shown that realism is more of a problem than locality in the quantum world. They devised an experiment that violates a different inequality proposed by physicist Anthony Leggett in 2003 that relies only on realism, and relaxes the reliance on locality. To do this, rather than taking measurements along just one plane of polarization, the Austrian team took measurements in additional, perpendicular planes to check for elliptical polarization. They found that, just as in the realizations of Bell's thought experiment, Leggett's inequality is violated – thus stressing the quantum-mechanical assertion that reality does not exist when we're not observing it. "Our study shows that 'just' giving up the concept of locality would not be enough to obtain a more complete description of quantum mechanics," Aspelmeyer told Physics Web. "You would also have to give up certain intuitive features of realism." http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/27640 Nonlocal "realistic" Leggett models can be considered refuted by the before-before experiment - Antoine Suarez Center for Quantum Philosophy, - 2008 Excerpt: (page 3) The independence of quantum measurement from the presence of human consciousness has not been proved wrong by any experiment to date.,,, "nonlocal correlations happen from outside space-time, in the sense that there is no story in space-time that tells us how they happen." http://www.quantumphil.org/SuarezFOOP201R2.pdf
And to further solidify the case that 'consciousness precedes reality' the violation of Leggett's inequalities were extended in 2010:
Violation of Leggett inequalities in orbital angular momentum subspaces - 2010 Main results. We extend the violation of Leggett inequalities to the orbital angular momentum (OAM) state space of photons, which is associated with their helical wavefronts. We define our measurements in a Bloch sphere for OAM and measure the Leggett parameter LN (where N is the number of settings for the signal photon) as we change the angle ? (see figure). We observe excellent agreement with quantum mechanical predictions (red line), and show a violation of five and six standard deviations for N = 3 and N = 4, respectively. http://iopscience.iop.org/1367-2630/12/12/123007
Now, I find the preceding to be absolutely fascinating! A photon, in its quantum wave state, is found to be mathematically defined as a ‘infinite-dimensional’ state, which ‘requires an infinite amount of information’ to describe it properly, can be encoded with information in its 'infinite dimensional' state, and this ‘infinite dimensional’ photon is found to collapse, instantaneously, and thus ‘non-locally’, to just a ’1 or 0? state, out of a infinite number of possibilities that the photon could have collapsed to instead! Moreover, consciousness is found to precede the collapse of the wavefunction to its particle state. Now my question to materialistic atheists is this, "Exactly what ’conscious cause’ has been postulated throughout history to be completely independent of any space-time constraints, as well as possessing infinite knowledge, so as to be the ‘sufficient cause’ to explain what we see in the quantum wave collapse of a photon???
John 1:1-5 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
,,,In my personal opinion, even though not hashed out in exhaustive detail yet, all this evidence is about as sweet as it can get in experimental science as to providing proof that Almighty God created and sustains this universe.,,,
The Word Is Alive - Casting Crowns - music video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5197438/
bornagain77
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,,,It is important to note that the following experiment actually encoded information into a photon while it was in its quantum wave state, thus destroying the notion, held by many, that the wave function was not ‘physically real’ but was merely ‘abstract’. i.e. How can information possibly be encoded into something that is not physically real but merely abstract?,,,
Ultra-Dense Optical Storage – on One Photon Excerpt: Researchers at the University of Rochester have made an optics breakthrough that allows them to encode an entire image’s worth of data into a photon, slow the image down for storage, and then retrieve the image intact. http://www.physorg.com/news88439430.html Information In Photon - Robert W. Boyd - slides from presentation http://www.quantumphotonics.uottawa.ca/assets/pdf/Boyd-Como-InPho.pdf Information in a Photon - Robert W. Boyd - 2010 Excerpt: By its conventional definition, a photon is one unit of excitation of a mode of the electromagnetic field. The modes of the electromagnetic field constitute a countably infinite set of basis functions, and in this sense the amount of information that can be impressed onto an individual photon is unlimited. http://www.pqeconference.com/pqe2011/abstractd/013.pdf
Here is a more rigorous measurement of the wave function which establishes it as 'physically real';
Direct measurement of the quantum wavefunction - June 2011 Excerpt: The wavefunction is the complex distribution used to completely describe a quantum system, and is central to quantum theory. But despite its fundamental role, it is typically introduced as an abstract element of the theory with no explicit definition.,,, Here we show that the wavefunction can be measured directly by the sequential measurement of two complementary variables of the system. The crux of our method is that the first measurement is performed in a gentle way through weak measurement so as not to invalidate the second. The result is that the real and imaginary components of the wavefunction appear directly on our measurement apparatus. We give an experimental example by directly measuring the transverse spatial wavefunction of a single photon, a task not previously realized by any method. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v474/n7350/full/nature10120.html
,,,The following paper mathematically corroborated the preceding experiment and cleaned up some pretty nasty probabilistic incongruities that arose from a purely statistical interpretation, i.e. it seems that stacking a ‘random infinity’, (parallel universes to explain quantum wave collapse), on top of another ‘random infinity’, to explain quantum entanglement, leads to irreconcilable mathematical absurdities within quantum mechanics:,,,
Quantum Theory’s ‘Wavefunction’ Found to Be Real Physical Entity: Scientific American – November 2011 Excerpt: David Wallace, a philosopher of physics at the University of Oxford, UK, says that the theorem is the most important result in the foundations of quantum mechanics that he has seen in his 15-year professional career. “This strips away obscurity and shows you can’t have an interpretation of a quantum state as probabilistic,” he says. http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=quantum-theorys-wavefunction The quantum (wave) state cannot be interpreted statistically – November 2011 http://lanl.arxiv.org/abs/1111.3328
Moreover:
Looking Beyond Space and Time to Cope With Quantum Theory – (Oct. 28, 2012) Excerpt: To derive their inequality, which sets up a measurement of entanglement between four particles, the researchers considered what behaviours are possible for four particles that are connected by influences that stay hidden and that travel at some arbitrary finite speed. Mathematically (and mind-bogglingly), these constraints define an 80-dimensional object. The testable hidden influence inequality is the boundary of the shadow this 80-dimensional shape casts in 44 dimensions. The researchers showed that quantum predictions can lie outside this boundary, which means they are going against one of the assumptions. Outside the boundary, either the influences can’t stay hidden, or they must have infinite speed.,,, The remaining option is to accept that (quantum) influences must be infinitely fast,,, “Our result gives weight to the idea that quantum correlations somehow arise from outside spacetime, in the sense that no story in space and time can describe them,” says Nicolas Gisin, Professor at the University of Geneva, Switzerland,,, http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/10/121028142217.htm
,,,The following logical deduction and evidence shows that consciousness precedes the collapse of the 'infinite information' of the quantum wave state to the single bit of the 'uncertain' particle state,,,
The argument for God from consciousness can be framed like this: 1. Consciousness either precedes all of material reality or is a ‘epi-phenomena’ of material reality. 2. If consciousness is a ‘epi-phenomena’ of material reality then consciousness will be found to have no special position within material reality. Whereas conversely, if consciousness precedes material reality then consciousness will be found to have a special position within material reality. 3. Consciousness is found to have a special, even central, position within material reality. 4. Therefore, consciousness is found to precede material reality. Three intersecting lines of experimental evidence from quantum mechanics that shows that consciousness precedes material reality (Wigner’s Quantum Symmetries, Wheeler’s Delayed Choice, Leggett’s Inequalities): https://docs.google.com/document/d/1G_Fi50ljF5w_XyJHfmSIZsOcPFhgoAZ3PRc_ktY8cFo/edit “It was not possible to formulate the laws (of quantum theory) in a fully consistent way without reference to consciousness.” Eugene Wigner (1902 -1995) from his collection of essays “Symmetries and Reflections – Scientific Essays”; Eugene Wigner laid the foundation for the theory of symmetries in quantum mechanics, for which he received the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1963.
,,,Wigner stated this in regards to his Nobel Prize winning work on Quantum Symmetries,,,
Eugene Wigner Excerpt: To express this basic experience in a more direct way: the world does not have a privileged center, there is no absolute rest, preferred direction, unique origin of calendar time, even left and right seem to be rather symmetric. The interference of electrons, photons, neutrons has indicated that the state of a particle can be described by a vector possessing a certain number of components. As the observer is replaced by another observer (working elsewhere, looking at a different direction, using another clock, perhaps being left-handed), the state of the very same particle is described by another vector, obtained from the previous vector by multiplying it with a matrix. This matrix transfers from one observer to another. http://www.reak.bme.hu/Wigner_Course/WignerBio/wb1.htm
,,,i.e. In the experiment the 'world' (i.e. the universe) does not have a ‘privileged center’. Yet strangely, the conscious observer does exhibit a 'privileged center'. This is since the 'matrix', which determines which vector will be used to describe the particle in the experiment, is 'observer-centric' in its origination! Thus explaining Wigner’s dramatic statement, “It was not possible to formulate the laws (of quantum theory) in a fully consistent way without reference to consciousness.”,,,bornagain77
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Here is another experiment which demonstrated quantum information's dominion over space and time (specifically time);
Physicists describe method to observe timelike entanglement - January 2011 Excerpt: In "ordinary" quantum entanglement, two particles possess properties that are inherently linked with each other, even though the particles may be spatially separated by a large distance. Now, physicists S. Jay Olson and Timothy C. Ralph from the University of Queensland have shown that it's possible to create entanglement between regions of spacetime that are separated in time but not in space, and then to convert the timelike entanglement into normal spacelike entanglement. They also discuss the possibility of using this timelike entanglement from the quantum vacuum for a process they call "teleportation in time." "To me, the exciting aspect of this result (that entanglement exists between the future and past) is that it is quite a general property of nature and opens the door to new creativity, since we know that entanglement can be viewed as a resource for quantum technology," Olson told PhysOrg.com. http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-01-physicists-method-timelike-entanglement.html
and this experiment: Here’s a variation of Wheeler’s Delayed Choice experiment, which highlights quantum information's transcendence of time so as to effect 'spooky action into the past';
Quantum physics mimics spooky action into the past - April 23, 2012 Excerpt: The authors experimentally realized a "Gedankenexperiment" called "delayed-choice entanglement swapping", formulated by Asher Peres in the year 2000. Two pairs of entangled photons are produced, and one photon from each pair is sent to a party called Victor. Of the two remaining photons, one photon is sent to the party Alice and one is sent to the party Bob. Victor can now choose between two kinds of measurements. If he decides to measure his two photons in a way such that they are forced to be in an entangled state, then also Alice's and Bob's photon pair becomes entangled. If Victor chooses to measure his particles individually, Alice's and Bob's photon pair ends up in a separable state. Modern quantum optics technology allowed the team to delay Victor's choice and measurement with respect to the measurements which Alice and Bob perform on their photons. "We found that whether Alice's and Bob's photons are entangled and show quantum correlations or are separable and show classical correlations can be decided after they have been measured", explains Xiao-song Ma, lead author of the study. According to the famous words of Albert Einstein, the effects of quantum entanglement appear as "spooky action at a distance". The recent experiment has gone one remarkable step further. "Within a naïve classical world view, quantum mechanics can even mimic an influence of future actions on past events", says Anton Zeilinger. http://phys.org/news/2012-04-quantum-physics-mimics-spooky-action.html
,,,Whereas these following experiment gives strong indication that that quantum information is 'conserved',,,
Quantum no-hiding theorem experimentally confirmed for first time Excerpt: In the classical world, information can be copied and deleted at will. In the quantum world, however, the conservation of quantum information means that information cannot be created nor destroyed. This concept stems from two fundamental theorems of quantum mechanics: the no-cloning theorem and the no-deleting theorem. A third and related theorem, called the no-hiding theorem, addresses information loss in the quantum world. According to the no-hiding theorem, if information is missing from one system (which may happen when the system interacts with the environment), then the information is simply residing somewhere else in the Universe; in other words, the missing information cannot be hidden in the correlations between a system and its environment. http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-03-quantum-no-hiding-theorem-experimentally.html Quantum no-deleting theorem Excerpt: A stronger version of the no-cloning theorem and the no-deleting theorem provide permanence to quantum information. To create a copy one must import the information from some part of the universe and to delete a state one needs to export it to another part of the universe where it will continue to exist. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_no-deleting_theorem#Consequence
,,,Moreover, the quantum wave state (superposition), which is defined as a infinite dimensional state, and which can theoretically be encoded with infinite information, collapses to its particle state, the collapsed state yields only a single bit of information:,,,
Wave function Excerpt "wave functions form an abstract vector space",,, This vector space is infinite-dimensional, because there is no finite set of functions which can be added together in various combinations to create every possible function. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_function#Wave_functions_as_an_abstract_vector_space Single photons to soak up data: Excerpt: the orbital angular momentum of a photon can take on an infinite number of values. Since a photon can also exist in a superposition of these states, it could – in principle – be encoded with an infinite amount of information. http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/7201 Quantum Computing – Stanford Encyclopedia Excerpt: Theoretically, a single qubit can store an infinite amount of information, yet when measured (and thus collapsing the Quantum Wave state) it yields only the classical result (0 or 1),,, http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-quantcomp/#2.1 Zeilinger's principle The principle that any elementary system carries just one bit of information. This principle was put forward by the Austrian physicist Anton Zeilinger in 1999 and subsequently developed by him to derive several aspects of quantum mechanics. http://science.jrank.org/pages/20784/Zeilinger%27s-principle.html#ixzz17a7f88PM Why the Quantum? It from Bit? A Participatory Universe? Excerpt: In conclusion, it may very well be said that information is the irreducible kernel from which everything else flows. Thence the question why nature appears quantized is simply a consequence of the fact that information itself is quantized by necessity. It might even be fair to observe that the concept that information is fundamental is very old knowledge of humanity, witness for example the beginning of gospel according to John: "In the beginning was the Word." Anton Zeilinger - a leading expert in quantum teleportation:
,,,moreover, encoded information, such as we find encoded in computers, and yes, such as we find encoded in DNA, is found to be a subset of 'conserved' quantum information:,,,
Quantum knowledge cools computers: New understanding of entropy - June 2011 Excerpt: No heat, even a cooling effect; In the case of perfect classical knowledge of a computer memory (zero entropy), deletion of the data requires in theory no energy at all. The researchers prove that "more than complete knowledge" from quantum entanglement with the memory (negative entropy) leads to deletion of the data being accompanied by removal of heat from the computer and its release as usable energy. This is the physical meaning of negative entropy. Renner emphasizes, however, "This doesn't mean that we can develop a perpetual motion machine." The data can only be deleted once, so there is no possibility to continue to generate energy. The process also destroys the entanglement, and it would take an input of energy to reset the system to its starting state. The equations are consistent with what's known as the second law of thermodynamics: the idea that the entropy of the universe can never decrease. Vedral says "We're working on the edge of the second law. If you go any further, you will break it." http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/06/110601134300.htm
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