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Physicist David Snoke thinks that Christians should not use the kalaam argument for God’s existence

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The kalaam argument:

The Cosmological Argument or First Cause Argument is a philosophical argument for the existence of God which explains that everything has a cause, that there must have been a first cause, and that this first cause was itself uncaused. The Kalam Cosmological Argument is one of the variants of the argument which has been especially useful in defending the philosophical position of theistic worldviews. The word “kalam” is Arabic for “speaking” but more generally the word can be interpreted as “theological philosophy.” (All About Philosophy)

David Snoke, president of Christian Scientific Society, co-authored a paper with Michael Behe (2004).

From his article, “Why Christians should not use the Kalaam argument,”

The Kalaam argument is essentially as follows, although there are many nuanced variations of it. First, the argument is made that there cannot be any real infinity in the universe (real in the sense of physically obtained and occurring). It therefore follows that time cannot be infinite in the backward direction, since there are no real infinities. One therefore must have an initial starting point to time. But because something cannot come from nothing, that starting point must have some sufficient cause outside itself. That starting point, or sufficient cause, must be something outside of time, which can be identified with God.

My main problem with this argument is its starting point, in rejecting the idea of any real infinity. It may very well be that the universe has a definite starting point in time, which we can identify as the Big Bang. But in modern physics and mathematics, there is nothing inconceivable or illogical about the idea of an infinitely old universe. If we reject that, it is because of the data and observations, not because it is a logical impossibility. More.

See also: What becomes of science when the evidence does not matter?

Comments
[...] there appears a well-defined “scene of response”, rather than of fully-fledged inquiry. Thus, intelligible questions may be considered metaphysical, but not timelessly so.
“Why These Laws?”—Multiverse Discourse as a Scene of Response Jacob Pearce doi: 10.1162/POSC_a_00245 Perspectives on Science Volume 25 | Issue 3 | May-June 2017 p.324-354
Where's the beef? :)Dionisio
August 26, 2017
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[...] there is still much to be said on the role of computer simulation in cosmology, the use of statistical reasoning in quantum cosmology, the taxonomic systems used in astro-particle physics, metaphorical reasoning such as the elusive silhouette that is dark matter, the space-time regions connected to black holes, and the unexplained force that is dark energy. By tracing the history of its questions and practices, new aspects of the history of modern cosmology may be brought to light.
The unfolding of the historical style in modern cosmology: Emergence, evolution, entrenchment Jacob Pearce https://doi.org/10.1016/j.shpsb.2017.01.005 Studies in History and Philosophy of Modern Physics Volume 57, February 2017, Pages 17-34
Where's the beef? :)Dionisio
August 26, 2017
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The unfolding of the historical style in modern cosmology: Emergence, evolution, entrenchment Jacob Pearce https://doi.org/10.1016/j.shpsb.2017.01.005 Studies in History and Philosophy of Modern Physics Volume 57, February 2017, Pages 17-34Dionisio
August 26, 2017
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KF, It seems like Penrose's CCC aeons are finite. They have beginning and end. What is infinite in their highly speculative idea is the actual series of aeons. But we're focused on our current aeon(i) and all references to history are relative to this aeon(i), hence no infinite past or future. God made the whole show. He spoke it. We don't even understand this aeon(i) we're in, why should we care about the aeon(i-1) or aeon(i+1)? First things first.Dionisio
August 26, 2017
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KF @231, Agree, but that's the CCC proponents' problem, not mine. What I'm saying is that each aeon is associated with a new history (with beginning and end), all from scratch, even if they had the immigrant photons that escaped aeon(i-1) riding the info panspermia after the flashy closing act 'black hole disappearance' and the whole nine yards. None of that makes things easier for the OOL and Darwinian fans.Dionisio
August 26, 2017
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KF,
DS, the case actually at stake is precisely of the temporally successive, finite stage, causally driven ladder-climbing pattern identified. As for the string of balls case, apply the issues of Hilbert’s Hotel to it. The paradoxical results raise serious questions about any claimed physical instantiation of an actual infinite set of material objects.
Have you read Snoke's take on the Hilbert Hotel? Essentially, there is no paradox, because after the new guest arrives, there never is a time at which all guests are housed singly again. There is always one guest outside the hotel, moving to the next room, or perhaps two guests in a room, depending on how the shifting goes. The shifting process never ends. I certainly don't see anything in that example which suggests the infinite snooker ball arrangement to be impossible.
It may even be a gravitational cosmos collapser.
Well, that would be ok. I'm not claiming the arrangement would be stable, just that it could exist for some positive amount of time without creating logical or mathematical problems. However, I suppose if the balls were moving apart from each other with sufficient velocity, the arrangement could continue to expand indefinitely (analogous to an open universe). Here's Snoke on the Hilbert Hotel, for reference:
This seems to imply a contradiction, since all the rooms were occupied at the start, with no empty spaces, but an empty space was found. For a physicist, though, this scenario is easily dealt with by the principle of locality. It takes a finite time for an occupant to move from one room to the next. So really what has happened is that the new guest has set up a traveling wave in the chain of rooms. At all later points in time, there will be one guest walking from a one room to the next, while the other rooms are all occupied. There has not been a new room discovered, but rather a moving “excitation” (to use physics language).
daveS
August 26, 2017
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Dionisio, oscillating/ cyclical cosmos models run into entropy runaway problems. KFkairosfocus
August 26, 2017
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DS, the case actually at stake is precisely of the temporally successive, finite stage, causally driven ladder-climbing pattern identified. As for the string of balls case, apply the issues of Hilbert's Hotel to it. The paradoxical results raise serious questions about any claimed physical instantiation of an actual infinite set of material objects. It may even be a gravitational cosmos collapser. KF PS: You may then be advised to ponder the authority of One who broke the power of death, with 500+ witnesses and in fulfillment of centuries-old prophecies in the Hebraic scriptures.kairosfocus
August 26, 2017
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KF, Please, help me with this: Penrose's heavily speculative Conformal Cyclic Cosmology (CCC) postulates an infinite series of consecutive universes (aeons), each aeon 'i' having its own beginning(i) --following the end of the preceding aeon (i-1)-- and end(i) --preceding the beginning of the following aeon (i+1). Could the first three words in Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1 refer to the beginning of our aeon(i)? Why not? In either case, this 'CCC' aeon(i) has a beginning and an end. Aren't biblical verses referring to such an end? Then even such a controversial and highly speculative idea as the CCC doesn't seem to contradict the Christian Scriptures. Still this 'aeon' history we're living in is finite. That means OOL folks and their Darwinian comrades have to stay up all night long trying to figure out new 'just-so' stories. Please, note that no concept of information panspermia from aeon(i-1) to aeon(i) will help them resolve their issues. At the end of every CCC aeon only photons get away from the final 'black hole disappearance' scene. Basically, let's focus on this 'aeon' knowing that the Creator of the whole show has promised to take some of us out of this spiritually blind and lost 'aeon' so we can enjoy His glorious presence and worship Him eternally.Dionisio
August 26, 2017
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...Dionisio
August 26, 2017
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KF, Yes, to the first question. As to the second, there is no step-by-step traversal of an infinite set in my scenario, so I don't see it as setting up an impossible task for God to accomplish.daveS
August 26, 2017
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KF, The last sentence @207 indicates the current status of my involvement in the rest of this discussion thread. I'd gladly discuss with you any topic of mutual interest here or in another thread, but may ignore the folks who openly show lack of interest in serious discussions. As I've mentioned before, I saw many characters representing the mythical inhabitants of some areas surrounding the beautiful Norwegian fjords and had no problem being close to them. But I can't stand the real ones who show up online completely unsolicited. It's my perception that you're dealing with some of them here.Dionisio
August 26, 2017
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DS, so, you come to know by faith in the authority of a credible source? That is, a trustworthy authority can have probative value. Meanwhile, the issue that is pivotal surfaces: a finite-stage, causally successive process . . . the relevant kind . . . cannot traverse a transfinite span. KF PS: God cannot make a square circle as there is no possible world in which such can exist, it is an impossible being.kairosfocus
August 26, 2017
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KF @216: Thank you for the very insightful comment and for calling my attention onto important biblical passages I had incorrectly missed. Pointing to 2 Corinthians 10:5 is very wise and I highly appreciate it. That's a timely correction I needed regarding my comment @1. May this serve as an example of how Christians may correct one another always using as reference the Christian Scriptures from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21. This lost world can't do the same. That's why there are wars and so many social problems. Because the world doesn't have any absolute standard that must be used as reference.Dionisio
August 26, 2017
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KF, God could communicate this information to me through personal revelation or scripture, for example.daveS
August 26, 2017
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DS, so, how do you know there is an infinite array of physical entities of similar character, i.e. snooker balls? (In short how do you move away from a conceptual declaration to physical manifestation.) KFkairosfocus
August 26, 2017
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KF, To clarify, I'm assuming that God creates the snooker balls and places them in this linear arrangement instantaneously and simultaneously wrt to the common rest frame of all the balls. They are not manufactured or placed in succession, and there is no traversal (or counting) in time happening here.daveS
August 26, 2017
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DS, the critical issue starts with temporal-causal succession with finite stages in succession to traverse a transfinite span of time. Ponder balls made in succession and placed 1 km apart. Manufacture, materials and travel all would be implicated and would require separate instantiated infinities. A manufacturing, transport and material process of transfinite span such that at any given point and time there were already an infinite number of balls made and in place. That is troubling already. Then, consider the traverse required, which tries to span the transfinite in finite stage steps. This can be seen on 1, 2, 3, . . . k, k+1. k+2. . . . which will allow us to match k on to 1 on showing how we will never pass a finite count, the potential but not the completed infinity will be a problem. We can have a defined infinite set but cannot carry out a stepwise process to traverse it, e.g. by counting. KFkairosfocus
August 26, 2017
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mike1962,
Infinite regress means there is an instantiated infinite set – specifically, time units – which is nonsense, by definition.
Could you elaborate on why an instantiated infinite set is nonsense, by definition? Would a spatially infinite universe be impossible for the same reason? As an illustration, suppose I claimed that our universe contained somewhere an "infinite line" of snooker balls, floating in space, with neighboring balls 1 km apart. Is it possible to show my claim is false using mathematical or logical arguments only?daveS
August 26, 2017
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Dionisio et al: Let me refocus the theme in this thread now, by clipping my brief comment of some days past, at 158:
158 kairosfocus August 23, 2017 at 10:25 pm DS, an actually infinite past of a temporal-causal stagewise successive “now” state cosmos implies spanning the transfinite in finite-stage stages. Utterly problematic. But of course often ducked under the claim that at any t, the set of past timeline stages at that point was already infinite. Such begs the question of the required actual traversal. KF PS: “Proof” is a very slippery term indeed. It is eminently possible to sufficiently warrant the reality of God that an issue of our responsibility in response to the evidence and logic is on the table.
DS, no, it is not enough to say that at any t, an infinite past is already in hand. We live in a world that is temporally successive and causally linked, with recognisable finite steps. Traversing a transfinite span in finite stage steps is a futile exercise, we are only warranted to speak to a finitely remote past of origins and to the possibility of a potentially infinite continuation. This, in the context of an eternal world root of necessary being character. A character, that must account adequately for the morally governed responsible rationality that we manifest -- absent searing consciences with hot irons and ending up in debased manipulative minds that justify wickedness and folly while discrediting sound wisdom. Leading, to the sort of shipwreck that Ac 27 so aptly captures in a brief historical sketch. Beware, that gentle south wind in a dangerous hour, it is likely to be due to air masses moving up and out of the way as a front embedding a noreaster approaches! As we have these exchanges, what is it that we are risking, even insisting on marches of folly over? In this context, I suggest that a cumulative case that God is real is not just a serious contender, but something that can be warranted to moral certainty. Sufficiently so, that further insistence on resisting God is ill-advised. Indeed, that is the implication of what was already put on the table. We are ever so prone to re-label our follies as wisdom and cleverness! Let us think again and do better. KFkairosfocus
August 26, 2017
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Dionisio et al: Indulge me a continuation, now focussed on more general issues. Here I am among other things saying that the Christian intellectual community needs to be a part of the wider community of responsible scholarship. Of course, that is different from the games played by debased minds willfully resistant to evidence, responsibility, truth and reason. (Against such, we can only stand up as witnesses to a better approach.) Broadly, I think we need to start from a self-referentiality criterion: no worldview is plausible if it radically undermines responsible reasoned thought and the creation and use of knowledge through prudence and wisdom. Advocates of evolutionary materialistic scientism and linked allegedly scientific atheism of the "brights" . . . self-congratulatory complacency practically drips out of that term . . . and the like, I am looking straight at you. For sobering cause. As is commonplace, I start from looking at self-evident first principles of right reason and particularly, linked, first principles of being. The infinite regress vs circularity vs warranted responsible faith-point issue looks at us. So does the IS-OUGHT gap and the need to have a fusion of these in the world-root. On being, the distinct identity of some A implies a coherent set of defining, core, characteristics and possible being. Thence, we see the reality of not just contingent but necessary beings that are framework to any world existing. (Try to imagine a world without distinct identity existing.) In this context, incoherent core charateristics lead to impossible beings like square circles. The true nothing stands out as non-being. And as such can have no causal powers, were such to ever obtain as the sum total, then that would forever obtain: 0 --> 0 --> 0 --> . . . ad infinitum. There would be no world. A world, self-evidently, is. Thus we look at possible and even actual beings, which would be contingent or necessary. Some, must be necessary. Contingent beings depend on enabling on/off causal factors as a fire depends on heat, oxidiser, fuel and a chain reaction. They are not self-sufficient. Necessary ones, by contrast, will be independent and eternal, without beginning or ending. So already, we are at the threshold of eternity and the indestructible. That alone is already a transformation of the thought life for many, who have never seriously thought about something like this. A transformation that opens up the issue of The Eternal God as the most serious candidate necessary being. Such a being would either be impossible or else would be actual in some possible world, and would be framework to any such world, thus actual in our world (and any other worlds that may exist beyond being thoughts). Believing in God as ultimate reality and supreme being is not akin to believing in tooth fairies and the like. Atheists, it is high time to set aside such silly rhetoric. I have heard this sort of rubbish far too often, and I have seen a presumption of superiority that reeks of imagining that faith in God is a sign of being weak minded or worse. Kindly, stop. And BTW, clever redefinitions of atheism to try to shift burdens of proof rhetorically also fail the test. Every worldview must stand on its own merits. Also, the stance of denial of God, whether explicit or implicit, entails the implication of holding that God is not a serious candidate being [itself utterly ill-advised], and/or of showing just cause to hold the God of generic ethical theism to be an impossible being. Recall, a serious cndidatre necessary being will either be impossible or actual. (And no, post Plantinga, the problem of evil will not do for such; in case someone is about 50 years out of date.) I trust this interim stage will also be helpful. The foolishness of God is wiser and stronger than men. KF {END, part 2]kairosfocus
August 26, 2017
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Dionisio, DS et al, Being back at home (though by no means 100%) pardon some thoughts under the thread theme. First, on the Christian-Scriptural aspect, D has experience as coming through the days of officially atheistical Communism in Eastern Europe. Inter alia, for a Doctorate one had to present a paper on atheism to demonstrate one's proper scientific attitude.(Today, in the West, the games seem to be subtler but the same agendas obtain, as some career-busting, blame the victim cases patently demonstrate.) That said, I note that nowhere do the Hebraic and Christian Scriptures attempt a formal demonstration of the reality of God. Instead, we read the assertion that denial of God's reality is a manifestation of willful, sinful folly, and we find this discussion in Rom 1:
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world,[g] in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. 24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. 26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions . . . . 28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased [reprobate] mind to do what ought not to be done . . . [ESV, as now customary]
In 2 Cor 10, also, we read:
2 Cor 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we are not waging war according to the flesh. 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds. 5 We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ . . .
The first of these texts outlines the root and consequences of turning from the acknowledgement of God; debasing of the mind itself so that its products become warped and out of control. This leads to a fast spreading cancer of debased conduct, not just speech, of which erecting ideologies, mythologies and schemes of alleged knowledge and then communities in defiance of the evident reality of God as world root who grounds morality are all predictable manifestations. Similarly, we may point to a seeming clincher in 1 Cor 1 (often seen in some quarters as a repudiation of the approach in Ac 17):
1 Cor 1:18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.” 20 Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach[b] to save those who believe. 22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
So, is it then pointless to discuss warrant for accepting God as world-root? Not if we look a bit deeper, starting with 2 Cor 10: there is another side to the story. AMP:
2 Cor 10: 3 For though we walk in the flesh [as mortal men], we are not carrying on our [spiritual] warfare according to the flesh and using the weapons of man. 4 The weapons of our warfare are not physical [weapons of flesh and blood]. Our weapons are divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses. 5 We are destroying sophisticated arguments and every exalted and proud thing that sets itself up against the [true] knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought and purpose captive to the obedience of Christ [Cf. Col 2:2b- 3: "Christ, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge [regarding the word and purposes of God]. 4 I say this so that no one will deceive you with persuasive [but thoroughly deceptive] arguments."] . . .
From Col 2, we see that in Christ are found the treasures of wisdom and knowledge, for the Messiah (I switch to the Heb term) is God incarnate for our rescue. So bringing unruly thoughts into proper order under the Gospel is a proper pursuit for Christians, as part of worldviews level integration of knowledge as a coherent whole; Aquinas' corpus, is a classic -- though of course famously incomplete -- illustration of this. Indeed, I would argue that this is implicit in the call to Godly reformation as a part of discipleship in Matt 28, a part of the Great Commission. With that in hand, it is then helpful to focus the second aspect in 2 Cor 10: "We are destroying sophisticated [--> but obviously misleading] arguments and every exalted and proud thing that sets itself up against the [true] knowledge of God." So, the Christian community is mandated to analyse and address thought systems, ideologies, worldviews and cultural agendas etc that manifest the patterns of Rom 1. Where, the underlying core warrant for the Faith is the prophetic tradition and its fulfillment in Christ, especially as attested by the over 500 witnesses of the prophesied death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, leading to life transforming encounter with the living God. (Remember, dismissal of the Christian case implies delusion on the scale of millions, to the point where it would bring the credibility of the human mind into serious question.) In this context, there is obviously nothing wrong with sharing the results of such an analysis with the wider community as a part of the invitation to turn from folly and sin to the living God. Indeed, such a sharing would be part of the giving to every man who inquires an answer as to the REASON for the hope Christians have. I think this is a basis for addressing the matters in hand from the Christian perspective. In short, Christian scholarship can and should be part of the wider scholarship, though we should harbour no rosy-tinted naive hopes about how many will respond. In fairly direct terms, minds out of control because they have cut themselves off from the roots of morality are already in a case of undermining the very conscience that prompts us towards truth, reasonableness, responsibility and straight thinking, much less living. (This means conviction including about the sins of the thought world, is a first issue, one we dare not neglect.) But, minds that are responsive to the promptings towards truth in the inward parts, are ready to enter into real discussion on the reality of our world. Indeed, to even do responsible scholarship and -- yes -- science. To that I will next turn, DV. KF [END of part 1]kairosfocus
August 26, 2017
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‘But in modern physics and mathematics, there is nothing inconceivable or illogical about the idea of an infinitely old universe.’- Prof. Snoke
Infinite regress means there is an instantiated infinite set - specifically, time units - which is nonsense, by definition.mike1962
August 25, 2017
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Axel,
Does not the first paragraph above give the lie to the second, in view of Godel’s Incompleteness Theorem.
I don't see how; in any case, I would want to see a rigorous, detailed proof if any of Godel's Incompleteness theorems were invoked. My 2 cents, anyway.daveS
August 25, 2017
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I hesitate to ask/suggest the question, but there it is by way of the concluding sentence. 'But because something cannot come from nothing, that starting point must have some sufficient cause outside itself. That starting point, or sufficient cause, must be something outside of time, which can be identified with God.'- Prof Snoke -------------- 'But in modern physics and mathematics, there is nothing inconceivable or illogical about the idea of an infinitely old universe.'- Prof. Snoke -------------- Does not the first paragraph above give the lie to the second, in view of Godel's Incompleteness Theorem.Axel
August 25, 2017
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Dionisio,
Had he written his message in a worldly venue, totally unrelated to God or Christianity, I would have commented only on the logical weaknesses of his article. Or perhaps I would have skipped it altogether. I’m not an active member of the Areopagus.
Suppose this article had indeed been written in a worldy venue. What logical weaknesses would you have commented on?daveS
August 25, 2017
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.Dionisio
August 25, 2017
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Apologetic mission: “in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect” [1 Peter3:15 (ESV)] Commentary from the Reformation Study Bible provided by Ligonier Ministries:
always being prepared. Readiness to confess Christ is an important aspect of setting apart Christ as Lord. defense. The word may suggest response to abusive or derisive inquiries from hostile people. Such a response includes an explanation of the main points of Christianity.
Matthew Henry's Commentary:
Instead of terrifying yourselves with the fear of men, be sure to sanctify the Lord God in your hearts (1 Pet. 3:15); let him be your fear, and let him be your dread, Isa. 8:12, 13. Fear not those that can only kill the body, but fear him that can destroy body and soul, Luke 12:4, 5. We sanctify the Lord God in our hearts when we with sincerity and fervency adore him, when our thoughts of him are awful and reverend, when we rely upon his power, trust to his faithfulness, submit to his wisdom, imitate his holiness, and give him the glory due to his most illustrious perfections. We sanctify God before others when our deportment is such as invites and encourages others to glorify and honour him; both are required, Lev. 10:3. “When this principle is laid deeply into your hearts, the next thing, as to men, is to be always ready, that is, able and willing, to give an answer, or make an apology or defence, of the faith you profess, and that to every man that asketh a reason of your hope, what sort of hope you have, or which you suffer such hardships in the world.” Learn, First, An awful sense of the divine perfections is the best antidote against the fear of sufferings; did we fear God more, we should certainly fear men less. Secondly, The hope and faith of a Christian are defensible against all the world. There may be a good reason given for religion; it is not a fancy but a rational scheme revealed from heaven, suited to all the necessities of miserable sinners, and centering entirely in the glory of God through Jesus Christ. Thirdly, Every Christian is bound to answer and apologize for the hope that is in him. Christians should have a reason ready for their Christianity, that it may appear they are not actuated either by folly or fancy. This defence may be necessary more than once or twice, so that Christians should be always prepared to make it, either to the magistrate, if he demand it, or to any inquisitive Christian, who desires to know it for his information or improvement. Fourthly, These confessions of our faith ought to be made with meekness and fear; apologies for our religion ought to be made with modesty and meekness, in the fear of God, with jealousy over ourselves, and reverence to our superiors.
Dionisio
August 25, 2017
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Dionisio, I don't know that anyone has run for the door in panic yet. And I only wish the discussion were heading into deeper matters. But the last serious question you posed was whether the word "God" appeared in the text of the article, which is not terribly deep. It might move the discussion along more quickly if you simply stated that yes, the word "God" does indeed appear in the article, and then told us what the significance of that is. I'm not sure we share enough common interests in this topic to sustain a discussion, however. I like talking about the Kalam argument, the philosophy of time, and most of the issues Snoke addresses in his paper, but I sense that you are more interested in other things.daveS
August 24, 2017
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This thread has shown, once more, that when the discussions get seriously deeper, some folks that otherwise are loud, suddenly run for the door in panic. There are certain fundamental topics they prefer to stay far away from. In victory we should be magnanimous, merciful, forgiving, gracious, and respectful. If God is with us, who can be against?Dionisio
August 24, 2017
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