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Prominent Atheists Fundamentally Misunderstand First-Cause Arguments

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Recently, a debate was held in London between theist philosopher Rabbi Daniel Rowe and atheist philosopher A.C. Grayling. The subject under dispute, unsurprisingly, was God’s existence. It’s a very interesting debate to watch. I’d never heard of Rowe before, but I was familiar with Grayling, who is sometimes referred to as the Fifth Horseman of New Atheism.

Generally speaking, the “New Atheists” haven’t shown any natural genius for philosophy. Grayling, though being a professional philosopher, does not prove to be the exception here. Instead, he shows that even when they have the benefit of philosophical training, it does them very little good when they engage in debates over God’s existence. I think it would be pretty uncontroversial to say that Rowe won the debate rather decisively. Grayling often seemed so far out of his depth that it was even making me uncomfortable. I can’t imagine how Grayling must have been feeling.

In an article at ENV, David Klinghoffer has pointed out that Jerry Coyne agrees. Writing at his blog, Why Evolution is True, Coyne says:

I have to admit to finding the prospect of an orthodox rabbi holding his own in a debate with Dr. Grayling on God’s existence rather disheartening, but I’m afraid that’s exactly what went down the other night in London.

If there’s anything inaccurate in this description of the debate it’s Coyne’s characterization of Rowe as merely “holding his own”.  Anyone who watches the debate will see that Rowe did much more than that. What I want to comment on, however, is the argument that Coyne thinks he would have used were he in Grayling’s shoes, because it demonstrates that prominent figures within the New Atheism movement (or whatever you want to call it), for all their bluster about the failure of arguments for God’s existence, often don’t even understand the arguments.

Coyne begins:

The reason that Grayling didn’t crush Rowe was based on one thing: Anthony wasn’t up on the responses of physicists to the “fine tuning” and “first cause” arguments for God.

Ok, so presumably Coyne is up on these responses and Grayling would have “crushed” Rowe if only he’d known what Coyne knows. So what does Coyne know? He continues:

The rabbi made three arguments:

  • You can’t get a universe from nothing; there is a “law” that everything that begins has a cause. Ergo, God. In response to Krauss’s book about how you can get a universe from a quantum vacuum, Rowe responded, as do many theologians, that “nothing” is not a quantum vacuum—it’s just “nothing.”

I’ve heard this many times, and what strikes me is that theologians never define what they mean by “nothing”. Empty space, the quantum vacuum, isn’t nothing, they say so what is? In the end, I’ve realized that by “nothing,” theologians mean “that from which only God could have produced something.” At any rate, the “law of causation” doesn’t appear to hold in modern physics, and is not even part of modern physics, which has no such law. Some events really do seem uncaused.

Here we see a prime example of the New Atheists’ lack of familiarity with very basic philosophical concepts coming back to bite them. Coyne faults Rowe for not defining exactly what “nothing” is, apparently under the impression that theologians are using the word in some special sense (they aren’t). If “nothing” is not a quantum vacuum, asks Coyne, then what is it? This seems fit for a comedy routine, because the answer is so painfully obvious. You see, “nothing” is not anything. “Nothing” is the complete absence of anything at all. You can’t describe “nothing” and assign it particular characteristics or properties because it is the complete lack of characteristics or properties. It is non-being. No energy, no fields, no laws, no particles, virtual or otherwise. It’s absolutely nothing. That something cannot come from nothing is not a law of physics, per se, but of metaphysics. One cannot hope to legitimize the notion of a universe popping into existence from absolutely nothing by pointing to apparent cases of unpredictable probabilistic effects taking place within some existing physical medium and labeling those cases as ‘seemingly uncaused’. There is no relevant connection between these propositions. To suggest that something might simply arise uncaused out of absolutely nothing at all is to not only court absurdity but to settle down and have kids with it.

Furthermore, Coyne seems to misunderstand what it means to say that God created the universe “out of nothing”. He claims to have realized that “by ‘nothing,’ theologians mean ‘that from which only God could have produced something.’” Here he seems to think that theologians mean God somehow fashioned creation using something called “nothing”. Of course, this is not at all what is meant. The concept of creatio ex nihilo (creation out of nothing) means that God did not fashion creation out of some already existing material substance. Instead, God brought an entirely new material creation into existence through an exertion of power.

All that having been said, Coyne’s inability to grasp what is meant by “nothing” is really just the first part of the problem, because he fails to understand the overall First-Cause argument itself and how the concept of “nothing” fits into it. Coyne says:

Also, Rowe didn’t explain how one can get a god from nothing. Theologians like him always punt at this point, saying that God is the Cause that Didn’t Require a Cause, because He Made Everything. But that is bogus. What was God doing before he made something? Hanging around eternally, bored out of his mind?

The two comments in italics show Coyne’s fundamental misunderstanding of the logic of the argument (not to mention his misunderstanding of the very concept of God).

What Rowe is arguing is that all things that are extensional (which includes spacetime itself) are finite and cannot ever transition from being finite to being infinite, which means that they cannot occupy an infinite amount of space and they cannot exist for an actually infinite amount of time. This means that, as a matter of logical necessity, they cannot have existed eternally into the past, and so at some time in the deep past we must necessarily come to a hard beginning point where there was not anything extensional in existence at all.

Now, this is the point at which atheists like Coyne go wrong in their understanding of the argument, because they evidently think the argument asserts that, at this point, there really was absolutely nothing at all in existence. But that’s not correct.

The argument can be more properly understood as presenting two options here. It says that at the point that no extensional things existed, either:

A) There was a complete absence of being and so actually nothing at all, or

B) There was something else in existence that was not extensional.

We can then consider the implications of these two options.

If Option A were true, and there were nothing at all in existence then, there would still be nothing at all in existence now. This implication is necessarily true, because from nothing, nothing comes. Option A, therefore, must be false.

This leaves us with Option B. We can know then, as a matter of logical necessity, that something non-extensional was in existence even at the point that there was nothing extensional in existence. This something, then, would exist necessarily and would be spaceless, timeless and immaterial, and the ground and cause of all extensional material things that subsequently came into existence, which would require that it be capable of exerting a significant amount of power.

Further arguments could be made (and quite often have been made) for the conclusion that this something must have also been personal and intelligent, but even without those further arguments we arrive at a First Cause of extensional reality that exists necessarily and is spaceless, timeless, immaterial, uncaused, necessary, and incredibly powerful, which are all qualities classically attributed to God.

When one properly understands the argument, it is easy to see that there was no need for Rowe to answer the questions that Coyne poses. There is no need to explain “how one can get a god from nothing”, because nobody is asserting such a thing ever happened. And to ask if God was “hanging around eternally, bored out of his mind” prior to creation is to fail to understand that time cannot have existed eternally into the past and so God would not have existed through an infinite number of past seconds. When one says that God has existed eternally, they mean that, at least prior to creation, God existed in the absence of time. They do not mean that God is just some really old guy who has been occupying himself by playing infinitely many hands of solitaire.

Coyne’s responses to the Fine-Tuning argument are no more compelling than his attempted rebuttal of the First-Cause argument and they have been answered in depth by others (see, for example, almost any debate with William Lane Craig). Coyne tries to downplay what we do know scientifically about the physical requirements for life in an attempt to weaken the force of the argument, wrongly identifies it as an argument from ignorance when it is actually a positive argument for design based on our universal experience of cause and effect and the principles by which we all consistently infer design, and he finally makes appeal to the possibility of a multiverse, but all of these are merely attempts to block a conclusion of theistic design that can be held with 100% certainty. Even if they were successful (and there’s no good reason to think they are), they would do nothing to change the fact that, based on what we do know at this point in time, theistic design is currently the best explanation of the fine-tuning of the universe for complex intelligent life, and by a large margin at that.

HeKS

Comments
KF @197: Thank you for the detailed reply, and I apologize for the inordinate delay in responding. I was asking for scriptural references not so much due to a general lack of scriptural familiarity, but due to a desire to understand the particular interpretation of the same -- to know whether I was missing some obvious scriptural statement or declaration. It appears I am not. I am familiar with the five passages cited, but in intellectual honesty would have to note that they are far from definitive on the point. Particularly when there are reasonable alternate interpretations, coupled with the further fact that there are numerous other passages that would suggest a different conclusion on this important point. No doubt I can continue to learn more from the non-scriptural sources you cited, some of which I am familiar with and others of which I should spend some time with. Finally, I would note that the caution of wresting the scriptures with private interpretation applies just as much to the great Biblical "thinkers" and "scholars" as the rest of us. Yes, the caution of humility is well taken, particularly toward those of us who have not devoted our life to Biblical scholarship. However, let us apply the caution fairly across the board.Eric Anderson
September 9, 2016
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Folks, still busy (e.g. playing organisation midwife just now in a region where parliaments run off the GBP 300 or so Erskine May; and Robert's Rules of Order are not a commonplace . . . ) but I suggest, given reality is, and credibly our observed cosmos is contingent, this constrains views. Root reality of necessary being character must exist per implications of inability of non-being to exert causal powers. Further, even our reasoning is morally governed [oughtness to truth and right], pointing to the need for such a root adequate to sustain ought; IS and OUGHT must be fused inextricably in the world-root; which points also to maximally great being. Where, at any subsequent level, we run into Hume's guillotine of is, is then -- gap leap -- ought ought. Then, we ponder that truth [given expressive, communicating minds] says of what is that it is, and of what is not that it is not. Moral truth is pivotal here, as such is communicated to us via that sense we term conscience. Truth, tied to the root level first cause of a world with beings such as we are in it. Matters to ponder. KFkairosfocus
July 19, 2016
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Mung; Truth must exist, and you seem to believe in it. Your statement to KF,
You’re assuming that there is such a thing as truth
asserts a truth claim: that it is true that prior statements by KF indicate an assumption on his part. Truth is just the term we use to refer to the things that are, or occur, or were, or happened. sean s.sean samis
July 18, 2016
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To elaborate on my #273, there are six "possible worlds" in this scenario, each one corresponding to an element of the set {A, B, C, AB, AC, BC}. Each world is labeled by the barbers that are currently working. In every possible world, it is the case that if Allen is out, then if Brown is out, Carr is in, so I think premise 1) is ok. However, it's not true that in every possible world, ¬(¬B → C). This is false in every world except A in fact. Let's assume B is the "actual world" as an example. Then premise 2) is false, so the original MT argument fails. Similarly for the other four worlds in which 2) is false. The only world in which the premises are both true is A, and in that case only, the argument is sound. (I think, anyway).daveS
July 16, 2016
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Mung, still busy. Truth is best seen as accurate description of reality. Whether we know a truth to be true (to what relevant degree of confidence) or in some cases can do so, is a different story. KFkairosfocus
July 16, 2016
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kf: Busy just now but an old fashioned suggestion will help, do a 3-variable truth table, it is 8 rows. You're assuming that there is such a thing as truth.Mung
July 15, 2016
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FWIW, my guess is that the second premise is flawed. Rather, it should be "it is not necessarily the case that if not B, then C", or ¬□(¬B → C) in symbols. In that case, we cannot apply modus tollens. I believe that's one of the responses to this example that Veltman mentions.daveS
July 15, 2016
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seam samis, Let me start here:
I think you’re trying too hard. You write your second sentence as if the truth table disagreed with you; the truth table I posted agrees with your claim that, “it is not the case that the absence of Brown implies the presence of Carr”. I’m not trying to be rude or snarky, but to me it’s as if you added two to two and got four and then said “… and yet I claim I should have gotten four.” Well, yeah. You did.
Yes, I missed your point there. Now that I get it, I do agree. Back to the top:
I think that the requirement that the statements must be true implies that the statements cannot have any significant omissions.
All I can say is that I'm not aware of this condition being a part of MT. Revisiting your original version of 1), I believe I could actually have made the consequent a conjunction rather than a disjunction, which your formulation had: ¬A → ((¬B → C)∧(¬C → B)) I think that's true, which would imply that eliminating either conjunct on the right would still result in a true statement (resulting in my original formulation). Would you regard that as complete?
Statement 1, as you presented it is NOT true because it’s incomplete and omits pertinent conditions.
Well, I just don't see how. If Allen is out, then if Brown is out, don't we then know that Carr is in? Clearly I'm not dealing with the case where Carr is out, but I don't know why I would have to.
Someone would have to show me an example of that, and the first thing I’d look for is whether it was complete or not. We’re all busy these days, when you have a chance, I’d love to see what you can find.
There is some discussion of this issue here (and in the previous section, covering arguments for truth-functionality). There's a wikipedia article on Paradoxes of Material Implication which is also relevant.daveS
July 15, 2016
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daveS; regarding both 269 and 270;
Well, again I just don’t see any mention of completeness in the usual definition of modus tollens. As far as I know, it simply states that if A -> B is true, and if ¬B is true, then ¬A follows.
I think that the requirement that the statements must be true implies that the statements cannot have any significant omissions.
Are you asserting that at least one of the premises 1) and 2) is not true? If so, that would resolve the paradox. ... I don’t know if I’m actually addressing your points about completeness, but my primary question is: Are premises 1) and 2) true?
Statement 1, as you presented it is NOT true because it’s incomplete and omits pertinent conditions.
Now there are some who believe that this example does show MT is not valid, but I’d rather not join them. But I don’t see how I’ve incorrectly applied MT here.
I think your error, IMHO, is at least that you’ve undervalued completeness.
I’m not sure the truth table actually does “work” in the sense that it tells us whether ¬(¬B -> C) is actually true or not. The column under ¬(¬B -> C) has five F’s and a single T (leaving out the two irrelevant cases), if I wrote it out correctly. Yet I claim that it is reasonable to accept the statement “it is not the case that the absence of Brown implies the presence of Carr” as true. I think most would agree that “the absence of Brown implies the presence of Carr” is clearly false, and then by the LEM, premise 2) follows.
I think you’re trying too hard. You write your second sentence as if the truth table disagreed with you; the truth table I posted agrees with your claim that, “it is not the case that the absence of Brown implies the presence of Carr”. I’m not trying to be rude or snarky, but to me it’s as if you added two to two and got four and then said “... and yet I claim I should have gotten four.” Well, yeah. You did. In this instance the truth table I posted verified your claim. It shows 3 conditions where Brown is gone, in the first, Allen and Carr are present, in second Allen is alone and in the third Carr is alone. So clearly ¬(¬B -> C) So I don’t understand why you doubt the table. The logic captured by the truth table is complete and compelling. If you are using a different truth table, I’d love to see it.
I believe many (or most?) logicians hold the position that the indicative conditional is not truth-functional, in which case the truth value of A -> B cannot always be determined from the truth values of A and B alone (and hence the truth table is of limited utility).
Someone would have to show me an example of that, and the first thing I’d look for is whether it was complete or not. We’re all busy these days, when you have a chance, I’d love to see what you can find. sean s. (edited)sean samis
July 15, 2016
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sean samis, PS to my #269: I don't know if I'm actually addressing your points about completeness, but my primary question is: Are premises 1) and 2) true? If so, then it seems to me this scenario would be a counterexample to modus tollens, regardless of whether the premises are complete. Now there are some who believe that this example does show MT is not valid, but I'd rather not join them. But I don't see how I've incorrectly applied MT here.daveS
July 15, 2016
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sean samis,
If they are accurate but not complete, then you are vulnerable to running into the kind of dilemma you were struggling with in # 263. You can arrive at a valid conclusion with partial information only if the partial information is sufficient for the conclusion. In this case, it seems not to have been.
Well, again I just don't see any mention of completeness in the usual definition of modus tollens. As far as I know, it simply states that if A → B is true, and if ¬B is true, then ¬A follows. Are you asserting that at least one of the premises 1) and 2) is not true? If so, that would resolve the paradox.
If it works, it is a correct tool. That is sufficient.
I'm not sure the truth table actually does "work" in the sense that it tells us whether ¬(¬B → C) is actually true or not. The column under ¬(¬B → C) has five F's and a single T (leaving out the two irrelevant cases), if I wrote it out correctly. Yet I claim that it is reasonable to accept the statement "it is not the case that the absence of Brown implies the presence of Carr" as true. I think most would agree that "the absence of Brown implies the presence of Carr" is clearly false, and then by the LEM, premise 2) follows. More generally, I believe many (or most?) logicians hold the position that the indicative conditional is not truth-functional, in which case the truth value of A → B cannot always be determined from the truth values of A and B alone (and hence the truth table is of limited utility). Edit: I have to do some work today, but I will look around and see if I can locate arguments similar to this barbershop scenario "in the wild" so to speak. I will be surprised if none exist.daveS
July 15, 2016
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daveS; re. #265;
However, it’s not required that the premises in the argument be “complete” in any sense, is it?
If they are accurate but not complete, then you are vulnerable to running into the kind of dilemma you were struggling with in # 263. You can arrive at a valid conclusion with partial information only if the partial information is sufficient for the conclusion. In this case, it seems not to have been. After some thought, even the first statement as I rewrote it was incomplete, it should be:
¬A -> ((¬B -> C) | (¬C -> B) | (B & C))
Apologies if I’m using non-standard symbols. If A is not present, then either C is alone, B is alone, or both B and C are present.
KF: Busy just now but an old fashioned suggestion will help, do a 3-variable truth table, it is 8 rows.
A good idea. | A B C | T T T – invalid | T T F – valid | T F T – valid | T F F – valid | F T T – valid | F T F – valid | F F T – valid | F F F – invalid
daveS: As to whether a truth table is the correct tool for determining whether ¬(¬B -> C) is true, I’m not sure that’s clear.
If it works, it is a correct tool. That is sufficient. The fourth row shows that ¬(¬B -> C) is true.
¬B -> ((¬A -> C) | (¬C -> A) | (A & C))
This is not surprising, the statement can be transformed to validly begin with not-A, not-B, or not-C. sean s. (edited)sean samis
July 15, 2016
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KF,
Busy just now but an old fashioned suggestion will help, do a 3-variable truth table, it is 8 rows.
Indeed (and six of the rows satisfy the constraints for manning the shop). As to whether a truth table is the correct tool for determining whether ¬(¬B → C) is true, I'm not sure that's clear. I will also say that I'm not assuming that "→" stands for the material conditional specifically. Rather, I'm just using it to symbolize the indicative conditional generally.daveS
July 15, 2016
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Busy just now but an old fashioned suggestion will help, do a 3-variable truth table, it is 8 rows.kairosfocus
July 15, 2016
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sean samis, Interesting ideas. If we do change the first premise to your version, can't we then change the second to ¬((¬B → C) ∨ (¬C → B))? I believe that's still true. Then proceed as before. However, it's not required that the premises in the argument be "complete" in any sense, is it? At least I haven't heard of that before.daveS
July 14, 2016
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daveS, re #263 I don’t think you’re using modus tollens correctly. Your statement 1 seems incomplete. If Allen is not out, then if Brown is out, Carr is in OR if Carr is out Brown is in. Shouldn’t it be:
¬A -> ((¬B -> C)|(¬C -> B))
Your second statement also seems incomplete, even if true. So not all the options are included in our statements. Therefore I do not see how modus tollens is being properly applied here. Given your two statements, I think it's an error to arrive at any conclusion concerning who is working; there’s not enough information. sean s. (edited)sean samis
July 14, 2016
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KF, Here's the modus tollens puzzle I referred to a while back. I'll post it here since it also relates to the LEM and the three laws of thought in general, and I think you might find it interesting. It's due to Frank Veltman, and this version is stated in the context of Lewis Carroll's barbershop paradox. I don't know how to resolve it, and interestingly, it seems that there is disagreement among actual logicians about what the problem is. Three barbers, Allen, Brown, and Carr own a barbershop. They man the shop so that during business hours, there is at least one but no more than two barbers working. You can verify that this allows six different ways to man the shop, which they rotate through in some fashion. Consider these statements concerning who is present when the shop is open:
1) If Allen is out [not working], then if Brown is out, Carr is in. This follows from the fact that at least one barber has to be working. We could symbolize 1) as ¬A → (¬B → C). 2) It is not the case that if Brown is out, Carr is in. In symbols, ¬(¬B → C). The justification here is that it's not true that the absence of Brown implies the presence of Carr. Brown and Carr could both be out, with Allen working alone.
Considering 1) and 2), by modus tollens, we conclude that Allen is not out, that is, Allen is working. But that's not right, because Allen could be out with one or both of Brown and Carr working. The question is, what went wrong? I will stress again that I don't know, but I can see myself attempting to use this sort of reasoning and getting into trouble. Of course anyone is invited to resolve this seeming paradox.daveS
July 14, 2016
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DS, so soon as you must refer to distinct identity, its concomitant triple principles are at work. Thereafter, whatever we say must comport with that on pain of self referential absurdity. It is unwise to saw off the branch on which we all are unavoidably sitting all of the time, supporting us in literally everything we do. Including, for intuitionists trying to talk about infinite and finite sets and substituting epistemology for ontology in understanding truth. KFkairosfocus
July 14, 2016
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@260
kairosfocus my statement should have been clarified, LOI, LEM and LNC would apply to God, but without knowledge and full comprehension of God’s nature, we have no way to apply or test these laws against an immaterial and timeless being.
The rules of right reason are not tested for rationality. They are the test for rationality.
There is no way to establish a contradiction, for instance in the case of the Trinity.
. We don’t test the Trinity for rationality; we test the teaching on the Trinity for rationality. That teaching does not violate the Laws Identity or Non-Contradiction.
Once must be able to determine that their is a contradiction between God as a singular being, with three persons, with each person fully encompassing the fullness of the deity.
We can determine that there is no contradiction if we understand the teaching and how to apply the law of non-contradiction to test it.
To establish contradiction one must first be able to understand the distinctions between God’s being and person, that is far beyond the capacity of any human being.
No. The difference between God’s “person” and God’s “being” is irrelevant. What matters is the difference between a person and a nature. If you don’t know what those terms mean, you can’t evaluate the rationality of the teaching on the Trinity.
So in this case LNC and LEM cannot be used to test or reject a statement about God’s nature.
What we are testing is the revealed teaching on the Trinity and how it relates to God’s nature. The LNC can be used to determine if that teaching is coherent. It is.
LOI clearly applies, but we cannot come to know God’s nature without him revealing it, the very basis of the doctrine of the trinity is that God has an identity, attributes, and our position is not to use logic to determine the nature of God, but to state what had been revealed.
We are not using logic to determine the nature of God. We are using logic to determine if the revelation about God’s nature is rational. It is.StephenB
July 13, 2016
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kairosfocus my statement should have been clarified, LOI, LEM and LNC would apply to God, but without knowledge and full comprehension of God's nature, we have no way to apply or test these laws against an immaterial and timeless being. There is no way to establish a contradiction, for instance in the case of the Trinity. Once must be able to determine that their is a contradiction between God as a singular being, with three persons, with each person fully encompassing the fullness of the deity. To establish contradiction one must first be able to understand the distinctions between God's being and person, that is far beyond the capacity of any human being. So in this case LNC and LEM cannot be used to test or reject a statement about God's nature. LOI clearly applies, but we cannot come to know God's nature without him revealing it, the very basis of the doctrine of the trinity is that God has an identity, attributes, and our position is not to use logic to determine the nature of God, but to state what had been revealed.jcfrk101
July 13, 2016
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PS:
I don't think I have disputed that particular point. However, this doesn't imply that anything of the form "for all P, P or not P" is an axiom or theorem in the formal system.
Which I don't mean to imply you have claimed, certainly.daveS
July 13, 2016
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KF,
DS, that is all that is required for my point to obtain. Distinct identity cannot be avoided and should be acknowledged for itself and its concomitants. KF
I don't think I have disputed that particular point. However, this doesn't imply that anything of the form "for all P, P or not P" is an axiom or theorem in the formal system.daveS
July 13, 2016
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DS, that is all that is required for my point to obtain. Distinct identity cannot be avoided and should be acknowledged for itself and its concomitants. KFkairosfocus
July 13, 2016
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KF,
DS, kindly demonstrate communication on a mathematical topic without using the distinct identity of elements in the message. KF
I don't think you can. I also don't believe I asserted such in my post above. Note the distinction I made between metalanguage and object language.daveS
July 13, 2016
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DS, kindly demonstrate communication on a mathematical topic without using the distinct identity of elements in the message. KFkairosfocus
July 13, 2016
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KF,
My other point is that we have to use distinct identity to think, reason and communicate. Any scheme that is not fully consistent with that and its immediate corollaries, LOI, LNC and LEM, is self referentially incoherent. KF
Hm, well if so, I would consider that to mean intuitionists are "cheating" (in the sense I intended). If intuitionists truly use laws that they say they reject, it would be like a person who claims to be a "pure" fruitarian eating carrots, and would be clearly inconsistent. On the other hand, if they simply abstain from using particular laws, I don't see any problems from that, meaning that I don't think you can show that the system is inconsistent. Not that there aren't other reasons to criticize intuitionists. This is above my pay grade, but I believe one has to be careful to distinguish between statements made in the metalanguage and those made in the object language. In my view at least, we are ultimately talking about formal systems here. [If that's not your view, then perhaps we don't agree on enough to even discuss this.] Obviously we expect to be able to identify well-formed sentences in our object language, and also to communicate them back and forth, and so on, but I don't see that this requires that LEM (or anything else, for that matter) is actually an axiom or theorem in our formal system. [What Brouwer would have to say about this, I don't know, but I think that modern-day practitioners of "intuitionist logic" would roughly agree]. Incidentially, I did find a connection between this LEM issue and some of the points from the infinite past threads a while back. From the wikipedia entry on LEM:
In general, intuitionists allow the use of the law of excluded middle when it is confined to discourse over finite collections (sets), but not when it is used in discourse over infinite sets (e.g. the natural numbers). Thus intuitionists absolutely disallow the blanket assertion: "For all propositions P concerning infinite sets D: P or ~P" (Kleene 1952:48).
For example:
All natural numbers are finite or at least one natural number is infinite.
would be allowed by me (and you, I believe?), but not by intuitionists. And for those who don't accept the existence of "completed infinities", this form of the LEM would be have to be excluded, whether one is an intuitionist or not.daveS
July 13, 2016
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DS, a footnote as something caught my eye. I do not think intuitionists are cheating. They are caught up in the western obsession with epistemology, and so absent careful safeguards it is easy to substitute epistemic concerns for truth. Thus our certainty based on "proof" substitutes for accurate description of aspects of reality. This is a common enough error, notice we tend to speak in knowledge terms not truth and being terms. My other point is that we have to use distinct identity to think, reason and communicate. Any scheme that is not fully consistent with that and its immediate corollaries, LOI, LNC and LEM, is self referentially incoherent. KFkairosfocus
July 13, 2016
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sean samis @238
Your “passing reference in the last paragraph mentioning Coyne’s responses to the Fine-Tuning Argument” is a bit too bulky and assertive for a “passing reference”. You opened the door; the horses ran out; whose fault is that?
Sean, you don't seem to be getting the rather simple point I'm making. I don't care if you want to talk about ID. What I was addressing was a statement from you that in the context of your reply to KF claimed the OP was discussing philosophical issues of design theory. It was not. The OP was not remotely about design theory or philosophical issues of design theory. The OP was approximately 3.5 pages long and all but the last paragraph was exclusively about philosophical issues related to First-Cause arguments, which do not take the form of an ID design inference. The last paragraph is merely an aside to the article in which I state my opinion that Coyne didn't address Rowe's Fine-Tuning argument any better than he did the First-Cause argument. I only referenced design to point out that Coyne mischaracterizes the Fine-Tuning argument as an argument from ignorance when (unlike First-Cause arguments) it is actually a positive design inference. But that is merely a passing factual corrective, not a philosophical argument. The philosophical issues discussed in the article proper don't have any bearing on the Fine-Tuning argument or on ID and are actually completely irrelevant to these other issues. They are simply different things. As such, to characterize the OP as being a discussion of philosophical issues of design theory is to utterly mischaracterize it. And so I'm left wondering why it is that you seem so intent on mischaracterizing the OP as being about the philosophy of ID. Oh, and by the way, even if you want to limit your comments to the discussion thread rather than the OP, your list of citations to prove that the discussion thread was also about ID in any significant way fails to do the job. In your quotes from SA, with one exception, he is simply using "Intelligent Designer" as a label/designation for a personal First Cause, but he is not talking about design theory or the logic of design inferences. In the one place he mentions "design" itself, it is in passing, as one item in a list of things he thinks we observe in the world. As for KF, in one case he simply mentions "design objectors" as a group of people and points out that they also seem to have trouble with first principles of reasoning (which, unlike ID, has some relevance to this discussion). In the other case, KF makes a passing reference to the fact that a basic design inference is being made in one sentence of a long quote he provided that is otherwise about first causes. Nobody here was specifically discussing ID, or the philosophy of ID, or the logic of design inferences. And you claim that in #160 (actually #161), KF suddenly declared:
This thread, FYI, is a discussion of philosophical issues, not of design theory.
But KF did not randomly make this declaration. He said this because in #158, you said this:
I thank you all for your comments here. Whenever I get someone saying that creationism/ID is not actually religious, I refer them to your comments and those like yours.
That is what KF was responding to. Out of nowhere you took a bunch of comments that were quite obviously about philosophy, theology and First Cause arguments but which happened to contain a couple tangential and passing mentions of design in them and you recast them as being about ID, inaccurately conflated ID with creationism, and then claimed the comments proved ID was religious, even though the comments were not actually about ID in the first place. This is what KF was correcting you on in #161, pointing out that you were mischaracterizing the discussion as being about ID when it was actually about other philosophical issues that are unrelated to ID / design theory.HeKS
July 12, 2016
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sean samis thinks God has a skull (and a face). wowMung
July 12, 2016
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SS:
Assuming everything you wrote is correct, no reasonable person can believe in your deity unless that deity personally, face-to-face, reveals himself.
Out of the mouths of babes and sucklings (and atheists) hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger. Oh Lord, our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth.Phinehas
July 12, 2016
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