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Q: “What does the design theory debate have to do with the law of non-contradiction (LNC)?” A: “A lot!”

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The latest flare-ups in the debates over design theory in and around UD have pivoted on the Law of non-contradiction; one of the most debated classical principles of logic.

Why on earth is that so?

The simple short answer is: if we are to make progress in debates and discussions, we must be at minimum agreed on being reasonable and rational.

In more details, LNC is one of a cluster of first principles of right reason that are pivotal to core rationality, and for years now, debates over design theory issues have often tracked back to a peculiar characteristic of the evolutionary materialist worldview: it tends strongly to reject the key laws of thought, especially, identity, excluded middle and non-contradiction, with the principle of sufficient reason (the root of the principle of causality) coming up close behind.

What is sadly ironic about all of this, is that hose who would overthrow such first principles of right reason do not see that they are sawing off the branch on which we must all sit, if we are to be rational.

Why do I say this?

Let me first excerpt a discussion on building worldviews, as I recently appended to a discussion on quantum mechanics used to try to dismiss the law of non-contradiction:

____________

>>. . . though it is quite unfashionable to seriously say such nowadays (an indictment of our times . . .), to try to deny the classic three basic principles of right reason — the law of identity, that of non-contradiction, and that of the excluded middle — inevitably ends up in absurdity.

For, to think at all, we must be able to distinguish things (or else all would be confusion and chaos), and these laws immediately follow from that first act of thought.

A diagram showing the world split into two distinct labelled parts, A and NOT-A, will help us see how naturally this happens:

Laws of logic in action as glorified common-sense first principles of right reason

If at a given moment we distinctly identify and label some thing, A — say, a bright red ball on a table — we mark a mental border-line and also necessarily identify NOT-A as “the rest of the World.” We thus have a definite separation of the World into two parts, and it immediately and undeniably holds that:

(a) the part labelled A will be A (symbolically, [A => A] = 1),
(b) A will not be the same as NOT-A ( [A AND NOT-A] = 0); and
(c) there is no third option to being A or NOT-A ( [A OR NOT-A] = 1).

So, we see how naturally the laws of (a) identity, (b) non-contradiction (or, non-confusion!), and (c) the excluded middle swing into action. This naturalness also extends to the world of statements that assert that something is true or false, as we may see from Aristotle’s classic remark in his Metaphysics 1011b (loading the 1933 English translation):

. . .   if it is impossible at the same time to affirm and deny a thing truly, it is also impossible for contraries to apply to a thing at the same time; either both must apply in a modified sense, or one in a modified sense and the other absolutely.

Nor indeed can there be any intermediate between contrary statements, but of one thing we must either assert or deny one thing, whatever it may be. This will be plain if we first define truth and falsehood. To say that what is is not, or that what is not is, is false; but to say that what is is, and what is not is not, is true; and therefore also he who says that a thing is or is not will say either what is true or what is false. [Emphases added]

So, we can state the laws in more or less traditional terms:

[a] A thing, A, is what it is (the law of identity);
[b] A thing, A, cannot at once be and not-be (the law of non-contradiction);
[c] A thing, A, is or it is not, but not both or neither (the law of the excluded middle).

In short, the diagram helps take the “mystery” out of the laws, showing us why they make sense. [Cf. responses to objections  here.]  In 1011b, too, Ari gives us a bonus, by aptly defining truth:  to say that what is is, and what is not is not, is true.(As a note for logicians: we are here specifically speaking with reference to the experienced world of credibly real things, so extensions to empty-set contexts in which questions over contrasted empty sets — that is, quite literally: no-thing –  arise, are irrelevant for the moment. That is, we deal here with the classic square of opposition. Then, once we see what follows from dealing with a world of real categories with at least one member each, we may then extend to the case of empty sets and see how much of a difference this possibility makes.)A fourth key law of sound thought is the principle of sufficient reason , which enfolds  the principle of cause and effect. Schopenhauer in his Manuscript Remains, Vol. 4, notes that: Of everything that is, it can be found why it is.”The fire tetrahedron (an extension of the classic fire triangle) is a helpful case to study briefly:

Public domain
The fire tetrahedron as a model of cause, with a cluster of four necessary, and jointly sufficient causal factors

For a fire to begin or to continue, we need (1) fuel, (2) heat, (3) an oxidiser [usually oxygen] and (4) an un- interfered- with heat-generating chain reaction mechanism. (For, Halon fire extinguishers work by breaking up the chain reaction.) Each of the four factors is necessary for, and the set of four are jointly sufficient to begin and sustain a fire. We thus see four contributory factors, each of which is necessary [knock it out and you block or kill the fire], and together they are sufficient for the fire.

We thus see the principle of cause and effect. That is,

[d] if something has a beginning or may cease from being — i.e. it is contingent — it has a cause.

Common-sense rationality, decision-making and science alike are founded on this principle of right reason: if an event happens, why — and, how? If something begins or ceases to exist, why and how? If something is sustained in existence, what factors contribute to, promote or constrain that effect or process, how? The answers to these questions are causes.

Without the reality behind the concept of cause the very idea of laws of nature would make no sense: events would happen anywhere, anytime, with no intelligible reason or constraint.
As a direct result, neither rationality nor responsibility would be possible; all would be a confused, unintelligible, unpredictable, uncontrollable chaos. Also, since it often comes up, yes: a necessary causal factor is a causal factor — if there is no fuel, the car cannot go because there is no energy source for the engine. Similarly, without an unstable nucleus or particle, there can be no radioactive decay and without a photon of sufficient energy, there can be no photo-electric emission of electrons: that is, contrary to a common error, quantum mechanical events or effects, strictly speaking, are not cause-less.
(By the way, the concept of a miracle — something out of the ordinary that is a sign that points to a cause beyond the natural order — in fact depends on there being such a general order in the world. In an unintelligible chaos, there can be no extra-ordinary signposts, as nothing will be ordinary or regular!)

However, there is a subtle facet to this, one that brings out the other side of  the principle of sufficient reason. Namely, that there is a possible class of being that does not have a beginning, and cannot go out of existence; such are self-sufficient, have no external necessary causal factors, and as such cannot be blocked from existing. And it is commonly held that once there is a serious candidate to be such a necessary being, if the candidate is not contradictory in itself [i.e. if it is not impossible], it will be actual.

Or, we could arrive at effectively the same point another way, one which brings out what it means to be a serious candidate to be a necessary being:

If a thing does not exist it is either that it could, but just doesn’t happen to exist, or that it cannot exist because it is a conceptual contradiction, such as square circles, or round triangles and so on. Therefore, if it does exist, it is either that it exists contingently or that it is not contingent but exists necessarily (that is it could not fail to exist without contradiction). [–> The truth reported in “2 + 3 = 5” is a simple case in point; it could not fail without self-contradiction.] These are the four most basic modes of being and cannot be denied . . . the four modes are the basic logical deductions about the nature of existence.

That is, since there is no external necessary causal factor, such a being — if it is so — will exist without a beginning, and cannot cease from existing as one cannot “switch off” a sustaining external factor. Another possibility of course is that such a being is impossible: it cannot be so as there is the sort of contradiction involved in being a proposed square circle. So, we have candidates to be necessary beings that may not be possible on pain of contradiction, or else that may not be impossible, equally on pain of contradiction.

In addition, since matter as we know it is contingent, such a being will not be material. The likely candidates are: abstract, necessarily true propositions and an eternal mind, often brought together by suggesting that such truths are held in such a mind.

Strange thoughts, perhaps, but not absurd ones.

So also, if we live in a cosmos that (as the cosmologists tell us) seems — on the cumulative balance of evidence — to have had a beginning, then it too is credibly caused. The sheer undeniable actuality of our cosmos then points to the principle that from a genuine nothing — not matter, not energy, not space, not time, not mind etc. — nothing will come. So then, if we can see things that credibly have had a beginning or may come to an end; in a cosmos of like character, we reasonably and even confidently infer that a necessary being is the ultimate, root-cause of our world; even through suggestions such as a multiverse (which would simply multiply the contingent beings) . . . >>

____________

[Added, Feb 21:] Let us boil this down to a summary list of six first principles of right reason in a form we could write out on the back of the proverbial envelope, with a little help from SB:

{{Consider the world:

|| . . . ||

Identify some definite A in it:

|| . . . (A) . . . NOT-A (the rest of the world) . . . ||

Now, let us analyse:

[1] A thing, A, is what it is (the law of identity);

[2] A thing, A, cannot at once be and not-be (the law of non-contradiction). It is worth clipping Wiki’s cites against known interest from Aristotle in Metaphysics, as SB has done above:

1. ontological*: “It is impossible that the same thing belong and not belong to the same thing at the same time and in the same respect.” (1005b19-20)

[*NB: Ontology, per Am HD etc, is “The branch of metaphysics that deals with the nature of being,” and the ontological form of the claim is talking about that which really exists or may really exist. Truth is the bridge between the world of thoughts and perceptions and that of external reality: truth says that what is is, and what is not is not.]

2. psychological: “No one can believe that the same thing can (at the same time) be and not be.” (1005b23-24)

3. logical: “The most certain of all basic principles is that contradictory propositions are not true simultaneously.” (1011b13-14)

[3] A thing, A, is or it is not, but not both or neither (the law of the excluded middle).

[4] “to say that what is is, and what is not is not, is true.” (Aristotle, on what truth is)

[5] “Of everything that is, it can be found why it is.” (Principle of sufficient Reason, per Schopenhauer.)

[6] If something has a beginning or may cease from being — i.e. it is contingent — it has a cause.* (Principle of causality, a direct derivative of 5)
_________

*F/N: Principles 5 & 6 point to the possibility of necessary, non contingent beings, e.g. the truth in 2 + 3 = 5 did not have a beginning, cannot come to an end, and is not the product of a cause, it is an eternal reality. The most significant candidate necessary being is an eternal Mind. Indeed, down this road lies a path to inferring and arguably warranting the existence of God as architect, designer and maker — thus, creator — of the cosmos. (Cf Plato’s early argument along such lines, here.)}}

It would seem that the matter is obvious at this point.

Indeed, as UD’s blog owner cited yesterday from Wikipedia, testifying against known predominant ideological interest:

The law of non-contradiction and the law of excluded middle are not separate laws per se, but correlates of the law of identity. That is to say, they are two interdependent and complementary principles that inhere naturally (implicitly) within the law of identity, as its essential nature. To understand how these supplementary laws relate to the law of identity, one must recognize the dichotomizing nature of the law of identity. By this I mean that whenever we ‘identify’ a thing as belonging to a certain class or instance of a class, we intellectually set that thing apart from all the other things in existence which are ‘not’ of that same class or instance of a class. In other words, the proposition, “A is A and A is not ~A” (law of identity) intellectually partitions a universe of discourse (the domain of all things) into exactly two subsets, A and ~A, and thus gives rise to a dichotomy. As with all dichotomies, A and ~A must then be ‘mutually exclusive’ and ‘jointly exhaustive’ with respect to that universe of discourse. In other words, ‘no one thing can simultaneously be a member of both A and ~A’ (law of non-contradiction), whilst ‘every single thing must be a member of either A or ~A’ (law of excluded middle).

The article (which seems to have been around since about 2004) goes on to say:

What’s more, since we cannot think without that we make use of some form of language (symbolic communication), for thinking entails the manipulation and amalgamation of simpler concepts in order to form more complex ones, and therefore, we must have a means of distinguishing these different concepts. It follows then that the first principle of language (law of identity) is also rightfully called the first principle of thought, and by extension, the first principle reason (rational thought).

Schopenhauer sums up aptly:

The laws of thought can be most intelligibly expressed thus:

  1. Everything that is, exists.
  2. Nothing can simultaneously be and not be.
  3. Each and every thing either is or is not.
  4. Of everything that is, it can be found why it is.

There would then have to be added only the fact that once for all in logic the question is about what is thought and hence about concepts and not about real things.  [Manuscript Remains, Vol. 4, “Pandectae II,” §163. NB: Of course, the bridge from the world of thought to the world of experienced reality is that we do live in a real world that we can think truly about. Going further, there are things about that world that are self-evidently true, starting with Josiah Royce’s “Error exists.”]

And again:

Through a reflection, which I might call a self-examination of the faculty of reason, we know that these judgments are the expression of the conditions of all thought and therefore have these as their ground. Thus by making vain attempts to think in opposition to these laws, the faculty of reason recognizes them as the conditions of the possibility of all thought. We then find that it is just as impossible to think in opposition to them as it is to move our limbs in a direction contrary to their joints. If the subject could know itself, we should know those laws immediately, and not first through experiments on objects, that is, representations (mental images). [On the Fourfold Root of the Principle of Sufficient Reason, §33.]

Similarly, Lord Russell states:

1. Law of identity: “Whatever is, is.”

2. Law of noncontradiction: “Nothing can both be and not be.”

3. Law of excluded middle: “Everything must either be or not be.”

(The Problems of Philosophy, p. 72)

The matter should be clear enough, and simple enough.

Sadly, it is not. There are some who would now say, of course you can define a logical world in which this is an axiom and by definition be true but that has nothing to do with reality.

That is why I had to further respond this morning:

____________

>>Let us start with a basic point, as can be seen in the discussion here on in context: the first step in serious thinking about anything, is to make relevant distinctions, so for each such case we divide the world into A and not-A.

(Notice the example of a bright red ball on a table. Or, you can take: Me and not-Me, etc etc. It helps to start with the concrete and obvious so keep that nice red ball you got when you were say 6 months old in mind.)

Once there is a clear distinction, the relevant laws of thought follow directly, let’s illustrate:

World: || . . . ||

On identifying a distinct thing, (A), we distinguish:

|| (A) . . . NOT-A . . . ||

From this seemingly simple and commonsensical act of marking a distinction with a sharp border so to speak, the following follows, once A is indeed identifiably distinct at a given time and place under given circumstances:

(a) the part labelled A will be A (symbolically, [A => A] = 1),

(b) A will not be the same as NOT-A ( [A AND NOT-A] = 0); and

(c) there is no third option to being A or NOT-A ( [A OR NOT-A] = 1).

Or, in broader terms:

[a] A thing, A, is what it is (the law of identity);

[b] A thing, A, cannot at once be and not-be (the law of non-contradiction);

[c] A thing, A, is or it is not, but not both or neither (the law of the excluded middle).

And since there is a tendency to use classical quotes, let me cite one, from Paul of Tarsus, on the significance of all this, even for the very act of speech, the basis for reasoned, verbalised thought:

1 Cor 14:6 Now, brothers, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? 7 Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the flute or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? 8 Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? 9 So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. 10 Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. 11 If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and he is a foreigner to me. 12 So it is with you. Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church . . .

In short, the very act of intelligible communication pivots on precisely the ability to mark relevant distinctions. Indeed, the ASCII code we use for text tells us one English language alphanumeric character encodes answers to seven yes/no questions, why it takes up seven bits. (The eighth is a check-sum, useful to say reasonably confident that this is accurately transmitted, but that is secondary.)

So, let us get it deep into our bones: so soon as we are communicating or calculating using symbols, textual or aural, we are relying on the oh so often spoken against laws of thought. This BTW, is why I have repeatedly pointed out how when theoretical physicists make the traditional scratches on the proverbial chalk board, these principles are deeply embedded in the whole process.

These are not arbitrary mathematical conventions that can be made into axioms as we please, they are foundational to the very act of communication involved in writing or speaking about such things.

Beyond that all the attempts to wander over this and that result of science in a desperate attempt to deny or dismiss actually rely on what they would dismiss. They refute themselves through self-referential incoherence.

For instance, just now, someone has trotted out virtual particles.

Is this a distinct concept? Can something be and not be a virtual particle under the same circumstances?

If so, the suggested concept is simply confused (try, a square circle or a triangle with six corners); back to the drawing-board.

(But of course there are effects that are traced to their action, so they seem to have reality as entities acting in our world below the Einstein energy-time threshold of uncertainty. The process that leads us to that conclusion is riddled with the need to mark distinctions, and to recognise that distinctions mark distinct things.)

And, BTW, we can extend to the next level. The number represented by the numeral, 2, is real, but it is not itself a physical entity; it just constrains physical entities such that something with twoness in it can be split exactly by the half into equal piles.

Similarly, the truth asserted in the symbolised statement: 2 + 3 = 5 constrains physical reality, but is not itself a material reality built up of atoms or the like. All the way on to 1 + e^pi*i = 0, etc; thence the “unreasonable: effectiveness of ever so much of mathematics in understanding how the physical world works. That is, we have a real, abstract world that can even specify mathematical laws that specify what happens and what will not happen. Even, reliably.

All of this pivots on the significance of marking distinctions.

So, those who seek so desperately to dismiss the first principles of right reason, saw off the branch on which they must sit.

It is a sad reflection on our times, that we so often find it hard to see this.

I know, I know: “But, that’s DIFFERENT!” (I am quoting someone caught up in a cultic system, in response to correcting a logical error.)

No. It is NOT actually different, but if we are enmeshed in systems that make us think errors are true, the truth will — to us — seem to be wrong.

Which is part of why en-darkening errors are ever so entangling.

It takes time and effort for a critical mass of corrections to reach breaking point and suddenly we see things another way. In that process, empirical cases are crucial.

But, there is another relevant saying: experience is a very good teacher, but his fees are very dear. Alas for fools, they will learn from no other.

Sadly, there are yet worse fools who will not even learn from experience, no matter how painful.

But then; it is ever so for those bewitched by clever, but unsound, schemes.

I hope that a light is beginning to dawn.>>

____________

Now, it will come as no surprise to see that I come down on the therapeutic side not the litmus test side of the issue of using the LNC as a test of rationality and fitness to discuss matters.

That is, I hold that this particular confusion is so commonplace that the key issue is to help those enmeshed, recognising that this is going to take time and effort. In that context, it is the specifically, persistently and willfully disruptive, disrespectful, deceitful and uncivil who should face disciplinary action for cause; in defence of a civil forum where important ideas can be discussed civilly. For contrasts on why that is necessary, cf YouTube and the penumbra of anti-ID sites.

Having said that, what is on the table now is rationality itself.

That is how bad things are with our civilisation at the hands of its own intellectual elites.

Do you see why I speak of a civilisation facing mortal danger and all but fatally confused in the face of such peril?

And of course the weapon of choice for the willful confus-ers is to get us to swallow an absurdity. That guarantees loss of ability to discern true from false, sound from unsound, right from wrong. Then, also, when we are told the truth, because we have been led to believe a lie, we will often resist the truth for it will seem to be obviously false.

No wonder, the prophet Isaiah thundered out, nigh on 2800 years ago:

Isa 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good
and good evil,
who put darkness for light
and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet
and sweet for bitter.

 21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes
and clever in their own sight . . .

We would do well to heed these grim words of warning, before it is too late for our civilisation. END

F/N: For those puzzling over issues raised in the name of quantum theory or the like, I suggest you go here for a first examination.

Comments
Brent says, "When we discuss the nature of some thing we must separate that thing from all other things and indicate what we are referring to when we discuss it. It is “that thing” and not “some other thing”. If it is a “mountain” we must define “mountain” as distinct form all other things." In general, I agree with this. I am trying to point to the problem of "defining mountain." If we want to talk about the 50 highest mountains in the world, that's a pretty easy definition. However, I don't think it is possible to "define mountain" precisely enough, with objectively useable criteria, that we could determine where the dividing line between particular mountains and their surrounding non-mountains are. That is, we can create the category called "mountain" and use it in logical thinking, but when we do so we implicitly assume that there is a clearcut mountain/non-mountain boundary, when in the real world there isn't such a boundary. This is a simple truth about knowledge: the map, or model, of the world, which includes all of the propositions, stated in language, that we manipulate with logic is not the same as the world itself; and many of the dividing lines we draw to distinguish A from not A are sometimes artificial and even arbitrary. dgosse writes, "Therefore we must invoke the LNC." Yes, whenever we talk about things we invoke the LNC - I have said nothing to argue against this. However, given that we can hold erroneous beliefs and still manipulate them in a logically correct manner, we have to realize that there is more than logic to knowledge.Aleta
February 17, 2012
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As Brent indicated, but did not pursue, a corollary to LNC is division and definition. When we discuss the nature of some thing we must separate that thing from all other things and indicate what we are referring to when we discuss it. It is "that thing" and not "some other thing". If it is a "mountain" we must define "mountain" as distinct form all other things. If "that thing" is a "virtual particle" it is the thing we refer to when we use the term "virtual particle" and not some other thing. We may not always comprehend the nature of "that thing" well enough to provide a proper definition but we can at least point to "that thing" and indicate that is what we are discussing and not other thing. But "that thing" is what it is and not "some other thing". Therefore we must invoke the LNC. It is what is it is and it is not what it is not. It cannot, at the same time and in the same sense, be what it is and what it is not. Our comprehension of what it is will, no doubt, increase as we study it, but it will remain what it is regardless of our level of comprehension.dgosse
February 17, 2012
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Stephen, you are clearly not trying to understand me. Among other thing, you say, "Yet you waste our time arguing that the LNC cannot be applied to a mountain in the same way that it can be applied to the moon," which is not something I have said. There is a sure fire way to you to stop having your time wasted, which is to not even bother to read my posts, much less reply to them. If people keep responding to my posts, I'll reply; if they don't I will most likely go away again - I came back because this subject of the relationship between logic (and math) and the world is of great interest to me.Aleta
February 17, 2012
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Aleta:
The problem is that the real world is not like that – many things exist over a spectrum where there is no natural dividing line. Therefore when we categorize things into A and not A, we create an artificial overlay on top of reality – an abstraction that is of course very useful in many ways, but also misleading and inaccurate in ways and at times.
The machine you typed that post on is unavoidably binary and dichotomous. And yet it can compute everything that can be computed; if you accept Church-Turing. It is fine to state that there are things we cannot compute feasibly or at all. But if we cannot compute them with nasty dichotomy then we cannot compute them with a sliderule either. And so mathematics is out for that topic, as is any hope of modelling or prediction. Thus goes all of science for the same topic. Otherwise there is nothing in your objections that are dispositive and that were not answered specifically by Aristotle a half millenia before Christ got his sandals on. Save one: Virtual particles and photons. But it is not the case that they do and do not exist. Hypothetically they come into being, mature, and then get out. Much like birth, growth, and death. So your point there holds so long as you admit that you do and do not exist. Not that I can state it, claim it, or believe it Gettier. But that you do and will claim it.Maus
February 17, 2012
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Kairosfocus: Good stuff, boss. One hitch though in that the LNC is 'not both' and the LEM is 'not neither'. The LoI being 'not both and not neither'.Maus
February 17, 2012
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--Aleta: “The problem is that the real world is not like that – many things exist over a spectrum where there is no natural dividing line”, I meant a spectrum of some other quality, not the quality of existence. I followed this up with an example of the quality of “being a point on a mountain” in post 3." Excuse me, but your answer makes no sense. You have already conceded, without qualification, that the moon cannot exist and not exist at the same time. You didn’t ask for a definition of the moon’s qualities prior to acknowledging the point because definitions about the moon’s qualities are irrelevant. There is no need to define the qualities of a moon in order to know that a moon cannot exist and not exist, just as there is no need to define the qualities of a mountain in order to know that a mountain cannot exist and not exist. Yet you waste our time arguing that the LNC cannot be applied to a mountain in the same way that it can be applied to the moon. It is a time-wasting exercise to make it appear as if there might be exceptions to the LNC in its application and you have wasted 20+ posts to support that irrational non-argument. Please stop it.StephenB
February 17, 2012
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Oh, I see what the confusion is, I think, Stephen. When I wrote, "The problem is that the real world is not like that – many things exist over a spectrum where there is no natural dividing line", I meant a spectrum of some other quality, not the quality of existence. I followed this up with an example of the quality of "being a point on a mountain" in post 3. I did not mean that there were many things that existed over a spectrum where there is no natural dividing line "between existence and non-existence.” I didn't say that, and I didn't mean to imply it, but I see that that is how you have been interpreting it. I hope this clears up what I meant.Aleta
February 17, 2012
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F/N: if you want a real conundrum try Russell's barber paradox: the two classes of men in the village: (i) those who shave themselves, (ii) those who do not shave themselves and are shaved by the barber. So, who shaves the barber? That inescapable unambiguity led to redefining sets as clearly definable collections. A poorly expressed collection is not a set; you do not have a definition merely because you can say something in words; no more than can you have a six pointed triangle.kairosfocus
February 17, 2012
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Folks: Passing by for a moment. We must notice the circumstance at work: we must be able to determine that something is A; which leads to the rest being not A. We cannot have A in the same sense and time etc being both so and not so. And this is real world not just an airy fairy world of logic. That fast moving out of control car rushing towards you on the street is there, and you had better take its existence seriously, if you want to survive; and jump out of the way. There are such things as fuzzy sets, where we may define partial membership, but again, how do we get tot he math to do that? By the old fashioned way. And, if A is a 60% bald head, it is either there or not there as that, but not both in the same sense and time. That is confusion. We may have the uncertainty of position and momentum of an object, but that quantum analysis gets there the old fashioned way, and we have a limit to our ability to learn the whereabouts and/or motion of an object, not that the object is not real. When it comes to Schroedinger's poor cat or the like, there are several ways to interpret the result, but he one that makes the very least sense is the notion that the cat exists in a superposed alive-and-dead state. Indeed, we could have a little vid cam in the box observing friend cat. That would not violate physics. It would show a living cat, maybe all the way though the hour in the chamber, maybe we will see the hammer hit the vial and poor tabby collapses spectacularly. But never will we see the case of tabby being in a ghostly superposition of living and dead states. There are superposed states, starting of course with classical waves. That a plucked, stretched string is a superposition of travelling waves moving left and right does not mean it is in a contradictory state, just that we analyse the node and antinode pattern on superposed travelling waves with reflection and phase inversion at a fixed end. So, if we see signs that our 30 micron paddle is vibrating at a frequency that is apparently a superposition of two states, why should that be being in contradictory states at once? What of the ring molecular orbital of the benzine ring, or the like for COOH etc? one thing is for sure, if we were to do a video micrograph, we would not see it both vibrating and not vibrating! (And, it is big enough to videotape -- maybe by passive IR emissions so we do not interfere with the dynamics. We could do the same for the cat too.) We have a major problem here, that needs to be addressed, root and branch. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 17, 2012
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Why do you keep stalling? You said, --Aleta: “The problem is that the real world is not like that – many things exist over a spectrum where there is no natural dividing line.” Without appealing to quantum mechanics, give me an example of one of those "many things" that "exist over a spectrum where there is no natural dividing line" between existence and non-existence." Please answer.StephenB
February 17, 2012
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Stephen writes, “I will, for the sake of argument, and for the moment, assume that you are an expert in quantum mechanics so that you can no longer use your outrage as a stalling tactic.” I haven’t expressed any outrage, and I’ve not claimed to be an expert - you’re exaggerating, Stephen. You said that I didn’t understand QM, and at an educated layperson level, that is false. You write, “Without appealing to quantum mechanics, a subject that lends itself to obfuscation, I want you to support your claim: Give me an example of something that exists over a spectrum where there is no natural dividing line” between existence and non-existence.” QM isn’t an obfuscation - it’s an example that challenges your position. If you don’t want to consider QM, fine, but please don’t dismiss serious and pertinent points as obfuscations. Among other things, this is why I asked you about your background - to someone not knowledgeable about QM, addressing some of the philosophical issues it brings up may seem obfuscatory, but I don’t think that’s my fault. You write, “Please answer.” I already did. In post 25, I wrote “I’ve made no claim about there being any practical difficulties with “A exists” for A in the macro world, and I’ve accepted “the moon exists” as a perfectly valid proposition to which to apply the LNC: if you ask, “can the moon exist and not exist at the same time,” I’m quite happy to say No.” Is that not clear enough?Aleta
February 17, 2012
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Aleta: "How can you tell me I don’t understand quantum mechanics, Stephen?" I will, for the sake of argument, and for the moment, assume that you are an expert in quantum mechanics so that you can no longer use your outrage as a stalling tactic. Now, back to my question. –Aleta: “The problem is that the real world is not like that – many things exist over a spectrum where there is no natural dividing line.” Without appealing to quantum mechanics, a subject that lends itself to obfuscation, I want you to support your claim: Give me an example of something that exists over a spectrum where there is no natural dividing line” between existence and non-existence. Please answer.StephenB
February 17, 2012
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I don't think there is any "gig" to be up, although I've gotten the feeling that people keeping wanting to think I'm defending a position that I am not. My first post in this thread ended with
In particular, the obligation to dichotomize that logic places upon us can in fact be a major impediment to understanding due to its tendency to lead to simplistic and inadequate distinctions.
That says more than "we should be clear with terms", but being clear with terms would certainly fall under issues I'm trying to address.Aleta
February 17, 2012
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How can you tell me I don't understand quantum mechanics, Stephen? And what is your background in the subject? Do you think you understand more than I do, and if you think so, why do you think that? Virtual particles are my example of something for which there may not be a clearcut division between existence and non-existence. I've made no claim about there being any practical difficulties with "A exists" for A in the macro world, and I've accepted "the moon exists" as a perfectly valid proposition to which to apply the LNC: if you ask, "can the moon exist and not exist at the same time," I'm quite happy to say No. And, for what it's worth, my interest in this topic goes beyond the LNC to the larger topic of the difference between logic as a self-contained symbolic system and logic as a tool for use with propositions, stated in words, about the real world.Aleta
February 17, 2012
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Well Aleta, it looks like the gig is up. You're now down to saying only that we should be clear with terms, which is, in my opinion, not at all what you were hoping to imply (or infer) from the beginning. But please explain to Stephen what you're actually saying just in case I'm wrong.Brent
February 17, 2012
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With respect to @22, do not appeal to quantum mechanics, which you do not understand. I want a practical example in the macro world.StephenB
February 17, 2012
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--Aleta: "The problem is that the real world is not like that – many things exist over a spectrum where there is no natural dividing line." Give me an example of something that "exists over a spectrum where there is no natural dividing line" between existence and non-existence.StephenB
February 17, 2012
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Yes, I am affirming the LNC, because "Logic has nothing to do with the ambiguity of statements per se". I agree with that, whole-heartedly. That's why logic alone can't get us good understanding of the world: garbage in, garbage out is always a possibility. That's the point I've been trying to make: when we apply logic to the real world, we have to assess the truth of our propositions on various grounds if we want to productively then use them in arguments that use logical principles.Aleta
February 17, 2012
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Aleta, if all you're saying is that reasoning from an ambiguous statement is likely to lead us to incorrect conclusions, fine. But what exactly does that have to do with anything? It's like getting a wrong answer on a math quiz not because you did the math incorrectly, but because you thought the teacher said 7+18 rather than 7+80. Are you going to throw out the rules of arithmetic? Obviously not. So what is your problem here exactly?Brent
February 17, 2012
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However, when we want to apply logic as a tool to help us understand what is true about the world, if the definitions we use are ambiguous or wrong, we won’t get the best understanding we can.
Let's remove the first part about logic. We have, then:
"If the definitions we use are ambiguous or wrong, we won't get the best understanding we can."
It is still true. Logic has nothing to do with the ambiguity of statements per se. All you're saying is that ambiguous statements are ambiguous statements. And I'm happy you are, because you are affirming the LNC when you do.Brent
February 17, 2012
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Brent, my answer to Scott addresses your last post also.Aleta
February 17, 2012
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I think there are two different meanings of the word "apply" here. Within the world of pure logic, as kf explained in the OP, in order to apply the LNC the definition of A must be the same for both A and not A, as Scott says. No question about that. And, as he says, this is true even if "the definitions are ambiguous or even wrong." However, when we want to apply logic as a tool to help us understand what is true about the world, if the definitions we use are ambiguous or wrong, we won't get the best understanding we can. The word "apply" is being applied to two different context in the paragraphs above: in the first within abstract logic itself, as a closed system of symbols, and in the second with respect to the model that uses language to map portions of the real world onto the logic.Aleta
February 17, 2012
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Aleta, if you are making a proposition, it is up to you to be clear on your terms. You gave the example of "Xo is on a mountain". It is therefore up to you to clarify your terms. Once you do, there is no ambiguity. And, even in the midst of ambiguity, LNC is unaffected. People can argue about the properness, wisdom, clarity, or definiteness of terms from now until the mountains erode, but the problem is completely beside the point of LNC. While men argue their terms, it will be true that they are arguing their terms. It will be true that it is disputed whether Xo is on a mountain. The LNC applies, still, even in the midst of non-clarity.Brent
February 17, 2012
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I didn’t say that the LNC didn’t hold. I said there are practical difficulties at times in applying it to the real world because it is not clear exactly what real-world state that A represents.
What I'm hearing is that for the LNC to apply - A and NOT A cannot both be true, identical definitions must be assumed for each instance of A. It doesn't matter if the definitions are ambiguous or even wrong. Doesn't that go without saying? It's implicit in any definition of the LNC. The use of such notation as "A and NOT A" would be pointless and make no sense if A isn't always A, regardless of whether A is accurate, inaccurate, or ambiguous.ScottAndrews2
February 17, 2012
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You not getting this, Brent, and of course I'm can't answer 8, as explained above, so I think our discussion is over.Aleta
February 17, 2012
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This just beggars belief. For anyone to propose that X is on a mountain, if there is no way to define mountain, is just to say that the person making the proposition is a moron. OR!!! That we must rely on the person making the proposition to define what THEY MEAN when THEY say "mountain".Brent
February 17, 2012
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I'll wait for an answer to my question @8. Thanks.Brent
February 17, 2012
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Hmmm. Asking me to provide a definition of mountain misses the point, I think. You asked for an example, and I gave one. You asked why, precisely, that the proposition "Xo on a mountain" is not at all clearcut. My answer is that there is no clearcut definition of a mountain, nor criteria for establishing that a point Xo is on one. Obviously I can't give a clearcut definition if my position is that there isn't one. The reason I asked you for a definition is because you didn't seem to understand this problem (You asked, "why precisely".) So the question is, I suppose, do you think a clearcut operational definition of "point Xo is on a mountain" can be given? And remember, the bigger point here, of which this is an example, is that logic, and the LNC, works with clearcut distinctions between A and ~A, and therefore we run into problems when we try to apply logic, at times, to things that don't have those clearcut dividing lines.Aleta
February 17, 2012
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last line should read: mountain or not a mountain.lastyearon
February 17, 2012
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Brent, We already know that mountains form over long periods of time as the earth's plates collide. So clearly there are many states of "mountain" (i.e. whether something is a mountain is not a binary question). Do you disagree? Do you think that something is always objectively either a mountain of not a mountain?lastyearon
February 17, 2012
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