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Quality, Quantity and Intelligent Design

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In all things there are two different kinds of characteristics: quality and quantity. While quantity is relatively easy to define, quality is difficult to define or specify. Consider an apple. It is easy to grasp what is the difference between one apple, two apples, three apples… only an integer number changes, representing the amount of apples. Differently, it becomes hard to define in detail what an apple is, what are its essential properties and its intrinsic attributes, ─ in a single word ─ what is its quality, which distinguishes it from anything else. This is more true more the thing investigated is complex and rich of information and organization.

Often a quality of a thing is related to its shape. Shape, form, position, topology imply qualitative attributes, which cannot be reduced in principle to numbers, let alone to a single number. This is the reason why in engineering, which deals with complex things, to describe them, one uses, yes, numbers but also uses words, symbols, drawings, charts, diagrams, pictures, etc. Consider a simple example: a spring. What distinguishes a spring from a straight steel wire and gives the spring the properties and functionalities the latter lacks? Aside from the fact that just the material must have specific qualities, the helical shape has a major role in making a spring. One could object that this shape can be described by an equation with three variables related to the three dimensions of space. Ok, but an equation is not pure quantity, is not a single number.

Sometimes the quality of a thing is related to its dynamic behaviour. Processes, events, evolutions, transitions, movement, state sequences are qualitative things. They entail time, which is even more qualitative than space. This is the reason why usually dynamic systems are more complex than static ones, and, consequently, more difficult to model and describe. Consider the example of a watch. Its dynamics transcends quantity and cannot be reduced to a number.

In some advanced cases the quality of a thing is related to the levels of abstractness it involves. Symbols, codes, words, languages, instructions are qualitative things. They entail meanings, which have high qualitative rank. This is the reason why information processing systems are among the more complex dynamic systems. Consider the example of a computer. It is made of matter, but this matter is support of an information processing that transcends matter. A computer transcends quantity, while being able to compute quantity.

Have you noted how many measures of complexity have been invented in system theory and in the complex systems field? All experts admit that no measure is perfect. A kind of complexity measure is good for a family of systems but is bad for another. Again, this is due indeed to the strict relation between true complexity and quality.

Quality and quantity are incomparable and irreducible. Total quantification, reduction of a thing to a single number, is a chimera. Quantification would be fine for us, because numbers are what is easier to deal with (not by chance, computers are good at crunching numbers but bad at grasping meanings). Unfortunately, to perfectly reduce quality to quantity is impossible in principle. As a direct consequence, perfect measures of complexity don’t exist. Expressed in a single number, what is the information content, the degree of organization, of a spring, of a watch, of a computer? Intuitively we feel they are in increasing order of complexity, but of how much?

What all this has to do with intelligent design?

It has a lot to do, and explains why so many discussions, also here at UD, arise about the concepts of CSI, FSCI, functional information, complexity and organization. We can consider a design as a thing containing “much” quality (but where this “much” cannot be properly quantified, so to speak). Roughly speaking, in the ID concept of CSI (complex specified information), the “complex” is somewhat related to quantity (it is a probability), while the “specification” is somehow related to quality (it is in relation with the functional description of the system). It easy to see here how quality, when we expel it from the front door, comes back through the back door. We would like a purely quantitative measure of complexity, nevertheless CSI seems to contain a qualitative part. In fact we can, yes, count the bit/bytes of the system description but this number will never perfectly represent the deep meaning of the description, what the system is. We may have two fully different systems with the same description length or even the same CSI.

What is the CSI of a mousetrap (Behe’s intuitive example of irreducible complexity)? What is the amount of information contained inside a mousetrap? The shapes of its parts matter and positional constraints about them are necessary so that the mousetrap work. Besides, the mousetrap implies a mechanism causing a short but effective dynamic event, when it catches the mouse. So consider how just this little example of design is difficult to quantify, how it is difficult to measure it by means of a single number. Go figure systems much more complex and organized than a mousetrap!

That being said, I do not mean the metrics of complexity and the measures of information proposed so far are useless. They can give an idea of what a system is, an hint about how much is more complex than another, how difficult is to design and produce it. Often, especially for specific, not extremely complex, types of systems, the measures of complexity are particular apt to characterize it, to provide an approximate metric.

Of course what said here doesn’t at all undermine ID. Quite the contrary, in a sense it reinforces ID, because dignifies more the role of design, in so far as eminent container of quality. Here what matters for me is the principle question, i.e. something we should be aware conceptually, while practically we can well use quantitative methods and tools, if they serve to get some result. After all also defective tools can be useful.

Comments
semi OT: “It appears that the Creator shares the mathematicians’ sense of beauty. Many physicists rely on his idiosyncrasy and use mathematical beauty as a guide in their search for new theories. According to Paul Dirac, one of the pioneers of quantum mechanics, 'It is more important to have beauty in one's equations than to have them fit experiment . . . because the discrepancy may be due to minor features . . that will get cleared up with further development of the theory.' Mathematical beauty is no easier to define than beauty in art. An example of what mathematicians find beautiful is what is known as Euler's formula, e^ipi+1=0. One criterion for beauty is simplicity, but simplicity alone does not do it. The relation 1+1=2 is simple, but not particularly beautiful because it is trivial. In contrast, Euler's formula shows a rather surprising connection between three seemingly unrelated numbers: the number e, which is related to 'natural' logarithms; the "imaginary" number i -- the square root of -1; and the number pi -- the ratio of the circumference of a circle to its diameter. We call this property 'depth.' Beautiful mathematics combines simplicity with depth. (Alexander Vilenkin, Many Worlds in One: The Search for Other Universes, pp. 201-202) - Alexander Vilenkin http://rfforum.websitetoolbox.com/post?id=3754268 As to the 'beautiful shape' that comes out of Euler's formula. Euler's formula (the most famous of all formulas), when plotted in 3D, results in the fundamental geometry of DNA: a helix (or a 'spring' shape if you want to call it that)! The following images show the graph of the complex exponential function, complex exponential function, e^{ix}, by plotting the Taylor series of e^{ix} in the 3D complex space (a helix) http://www.songho.ca/math/euler/euler.html It is interesting to note that slide 15 and 17 of the following presentation, where it reveals how Dr. Boyd encoded information onto a photon while it was in its quantum wave state, has an uncanny resemblance to shape derived from Euler's Formula,, Information In Photon – Robert W. Boyd – slides from presentation (slide 17) http://www.quantumphotonics.uottawa.ca/assets/pdf/Boyd-Como-InPho.pdf Probably nothing, but the correspondence caught my eye. Who knows maybe there is a bit more to it than just coincidence.bornagain77
May 27, 2013
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rorydaulton #10
I did not intend to “refute the claim that quality and quantity in a thing are irreducible.” I *did* intend to refute your claim that a shape, expressible in an equation, “is not pure quantity, is not a single number.”
I don't deny that a shape, and in turn an equation representing such shape, can be coded into a number in many ways. I deny that such numbers represent perfectly the quality of the shape. I think we must distinguish between reality and expression/representation. Simply for me reality and its expressions/representations cannot be equated. It is a semantic difference. Quantification is a coarse type of expression/representation.
I did ask if you have evidence for your major points beyond mere assertion. You have not convinced me that you have actual evidence.
The evidence is everywhere around us and inside us. The least thing shows properties that are not perfectly quantifiable. Microscopically, do you think an atom is a simple quantifiable thing? Macroscopically, what number is the mousetrap? Any number we attribute to the mousetrap will never exactly reach its essence.niwrad
May 27, 2013
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rorydaulton as to:
I just think that some arguments in this thread are being asserted without clear evidence.
I admit that some of the subtle nuances of this argument escape me, but as to the overall picture, I simply cannot see how a person can hold that the quality of a shape can be expressed as a pure number. For me quality MUST ALWAYS ultimately rest within first person subjective experience.,,, Call me old fashioned, but I refuse to let a machine or a number have final say in whether or not I find the quality of a shape, or anything else, pleasing. All this reminds me of the infamous genius,, Kelly Johnson http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelly_Johnson_%28engineer%29 who managed Skunkworks who could just look at a aircraft in production and spot errors that engineers who worked days at calculating a shape had missed. ,,, Of related note,, you may appreciate this lecture I found the other day,, Kurt Gödel: Modern Development of the Foundations Of Mathematics In Light Of Philosophy (1961) - A reading of perhaps one of the best lectures that was never delivered - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgZ_9gQfitcbornagain77
May 27, 2013
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bornagain77 #6: Gödel showed that any given system complex enough to include arithmetic contains some statements that cannot be *proved* within that system. That is different from proof. Any statement that cannot be disproved by a counterexample would be considered to be *true*, apart from its lack of provability. Truth and proof are not the same. I agree with you that "‘absolute truth’ [is] the person Jesus Christ," I just think that some arguments in this thread are being asserted without clear evidence.rorydaulton
May 27, 2013
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niwrad #5; You seem to misunderstand the purpose of my comment. I did not intend to "refute the claim that quality and quantity in a thing are irreducible." I *did* intend to refute your claim that a shape, expressible in an equation, "is not pure quantity, is not a single number." It is perfectly expressible as one--at least, as long the shape is describable as an equation, algorithm, or formal statement. Gödel and Turing showed there are shapes that are not expressible in this way, which is a point in your favor. I merely refuted one of your minor points; this refutation was not intended to refute your major points. I did ask if you have evidence for your major points beyond mere assertion. You have not convinced me that you have actual evidence.rorydaulton
May 27, 2013
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ForJah: Is he correct that life is a spectrum? I don't understand what he means. Maybe he refers to analog forms. That's why I never analyze fossils. But protein sequence space is digital, and certainly is not a "spectrum" (whatever it means), and can be quantified. Does that help?gpuccio
May 27, 2013
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In case some of you younger guys wonder what in the world I'm talking about: Phrases from The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hitchhiker%27s_Guide_to_the_Galaxy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Answer_to_The_Ultimate_Question_of_Life,_the_Universe,_and_Everything#Answer_to_the_Ultimate_Question_of_Life.2C_the_Universe.2C_and_Everything_.2842.29bornagain77
May 27, 2013
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Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, The Universe, and Everything from the supercomputer, Deep Thought, specially built for this purpose. It takes Deep Thought 7.5 million years to compute and check the answer, which turns out to be 42. :) There you have it: 42 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/56/Answer_to_Life.png Funny the 'Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, The Universe, and Everything' has been known to be the number 42 since 1978 but no one seems to have noticed and erected cathedrals in honer of it. :)bornagain77
May 27, 2013
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rorydaulton you state:
Although you have made an assertion, you have not shown that quality cannot be reduced to a number. Do you have evidence of this?
Godel himself, which you cited, showed that 'quality' cannot be reduced to any number, in that he showed that the truthfulness of any equation which is specific enough to have counting numbers within it cannot be contained within the equation itself. i.e. The 'truth' of any mathematical equation specific enough to have numbers within it is dependent on an outside source for its truthfulness. Thus the 'quality' of truthfulness, and I do hold that it is obvious that 'absolute truth' is a quality and is not a definable quantity, is not reducible to numbers:
THE GOD OF THE MATHEMATICIANS - DAVID P. GOLDMAN - August 2010 Excerpt: we cannot construct an ontology that makes God dispensable. Secularists can dismiss this as a mere exercise within predefined rules of the game of mathematical logic, but that is sour grapes, for it was the secular side that hoped to substitute logic for God in the first place. Gödel's critique of the continuum hypothesis has the same implication as his incompleteness theorems: Mathematics never will create the sort of closed system that sorts reality into neat boxes. http://www.firstthings.com/article/2010/07/the-god-of-the-mathematicians
footnote:
Comprehensibility of the world Excerpt: ,,,Bottom line: without an absolute Truth, (there would be) no logic, no mathematics, no beings, no knowledge by beings, no science, no comprehensibility of the world whatsoever. https://uncommondescent.com/mathematics/comprehensibility-of-the-world/
of note: I hold 'absolute truth' to be the person Jesus Christ:
The God of the Mathematicians - Goldman Excerpt: As Gödel told Hao Wang, “Einstein’s religion [was] more abstract, like Spinoza and Indian philosophy. Spinoza’s god is less than a person; mine is more than a person; because God can play the role of a person.” - Kurt Gödel - (Gödel is considered one of the greatest logicians who ever existed) http://www.firstthings.com/article/2010/07/the-god-of-the-mathematicians
Verse and Music:
John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. I Am Not A Number http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHiAZGlImMs
footnote:
The Center Of The Universe Is Life - General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, Entropy and The Shroud Of Turin - video http://vimeo.com/34084462
bornagain77
May 27, 2013
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rorydaulton #4 Gödelization is a method to map formal statements to numbers. There are countless ways to do that. These mappings don't refute the claim that quality and quantity in a thing are irreducible. In fact any such mapping is conventional and never represents true "reductio ad quantitatem" of the thing. One cannot claim that a thing A is more qualitative in absolute than a thing B because, according to some numerical mapping m(), m(A) is a number greater than m(B).niwrad
May 27, 2013
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"One could object that this shape can be described by an equation with three variables related to the three dimensions of space. Ok, but an equation is not pure quantity, is not a single number." Kurt Gödel, in his 1930's proofs about the limitations of mathematics, showed that any equation, algorithm, or mathematical statement can indeed be represented by a single natural number. This is called the Gödel number of the statement. Although you have made an assertion, you have not shown that quality cannot be reduced to a number. Do you have evidence of this?rorydaulton
May 27, 2013
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Here is an extension of Andre's reference:
Mathematically Defining Functional Information In Molecular Biology - Kirk Durston - short video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3995236 Measuring the functional sequence complexity of proteins - Kirk K Durston, David KY Chiu, David L Abel and Jack T Trevors - 2007 Excerpt: We have extended Shannon uncertainty by incorporating the data variable with a functionality variable. The resulting measured unit, which we call Functional bit (Fit), is calculated from the sequence data jointly with the defined functionality variable. To demonstrate the relevance to functional bioinformatics, a method to measure functional sequence complexity was developed and applied to 35 protein families.,,, http://www.tbiomed.com/content/4/1/47
Here is a defense to PZ Myers objection:
(A Reply To PZ Myers) Estimating the Probability of Functional Biological Proteins? Kirk Durston , Ph.D. Biophysics - 2012 Excerpt (Page 4): The Probabilities Get Worse This measure of functional information (for the RecA protein) is good as a first pass estimate, but the situation is actually far worse for an evolutionary search. In the method described above and as noted in our paper, each site in an amino acid protein sequence is assumed to be independent of all other sites in the sequence. In reality, we know that this is not the case. There are numerous sites in the sequence that are mutually interdependent with other sites somewhere else in the sequence. A more recent paper shows how these interdependencies can be located within multiple sequence alignments.[6] These interdependencies greatly reduce the number of possible functional protein sequences by many orders of magnitude which, in turn, reduce the probabilities by many orders of magnitude as well. In other words, the numbers we obtained for RecA above are exceedingly generous; the actual situation is far worse for an evolutionary search. http://powertochange.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Devious-Distortions-Durston-or-Myers_.pdf
And here is the peer-reviewed paper from Durston and company:
Statistical discovery of site inter-dependencies in sub-molecular hierarchical protein structuring - Kirk K Durston, David KY Chiu, Andrew KC Wong and Gary CL Li - 2012 Results The k-modes site clustering algorithm we developed maximizes the intra-group interdependencies based on a normalized mutual information measure. The clusters formed correspond to sub-structural components or binding and interface locations. Applying this data-directed method to the ubiquitin and transthyretin protein family multiple sequence alignments as a test bed, we located numerous interesting associations of interdependent sites. These clusters were then arranged into cluster tree diagrams which revealed four structural sub-domains within the single domain structure of ubiquitin and a single large sub-domain within transthyretin associated with the interface among transthyretin monomers. In addition, several clusters of mutually interdependent sites were discovered for each protein family, each of which appear to play an important role in the molecular structure and/or function. Conclusions Our results demonstrate that the method we present here using a k-modes site clustering algorithm based on interdependency evaluation among sites obtained from a sequence alignment of homologous proteins can provide significant insights into the complex, hierarchical inter-residue structural relationships within the 3D structure of a protein family. http://bsb.eurasipjournals.com/content/2012/1/8
footnote, At the 17 minute mark of the following video, Winston Ewert speaks on how functional information is measured in proteins: (As well, though not directly addressed in the video, The video also touches on how bringing in more 'quality' of information quickly exasperates the 'information problem' for materialists,)
Proposed Information Metric: Conditional Kolmogorov Complexity (Ewert) - July 2012 - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=fm3mm3ofAYU#t=1015s
Also of note, there is also a null hypothesis in place for information generation by material processes that has yet to be falsified, nor yet to be even seriously addressed, by materialists,,,
The Capabilities of Chaos and Complexity: David L. Abel - Null Hypothesis For Information Generation - 2009 To focus the scientific community’s attention on its own tendencies toward overzealous metaphysical imagination bordering on “wish-fulfillment,” we propose the following readily falsifiable null hypothesis, and invite rigorous experimental attempts to falsify it: "Physicodynamics cannot spontaneously traverse The Cybernetic Cut: physicodynamics alone cannot organize itself into formally functional systems requiring algorithmic optimization, computational halting, and circuit integration." A single exception of non trivial, unaided spontaneous optimization of formal function by truly natural process would falsify this null hypothesis. http://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/10/1/247/pdf Can We Falsify Any Of The Following Null Hypothesis (For Information Generation) 1) Mathematical Logic 2) Algorithmic Optimization 3) Cybernetic Programming 4) Computational Halting 5) Integrated Circuits 6) Organization (e.g. homeostatic optimization far from equilibrium) 7) Material Symbol Systems (e.g. genetics) 8) Any Goal Oriented bona fide system 9) Language 10) Formal function of any kind 11) Utilitarian work http://mdpi.com/1422-0067/10/1/247/ag
Of related interest,,,
Is Life Unique? David L. Abel - January 2012 Concluding Statement: The scientific method itself cannot be reduced to mass and energy. Neither can language, translation, coding and decoding, mathematics, logic theory, programming, symbol systems, the integration of circuits, computation, categorizations, results tabulation, the drawing and discussion of conclusions. The prevailing Kuhnian paradigm rut of philosophic physicalism is obstructing scientific progress, biology in particular. There is more to life than chemistry. All known life is cybernetic. Control is choice-contingent and formal, not physicodynamic. http://www.mdpi.com/2075-1729/2/1/106/
Verse and Music:
John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. Vicki Yohe — Mercy Seat http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXRuK_SJmv0
bornagain77
May 27, 2013
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ForJah I hope this helps, here is a way to calculate complexity. http://www.pnas.org/content/104/suppl.1/8574.fullAndre
May 27, 2013
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WOW this is kind of crazy! I was just looking for something on this very problem. I was having a hard time responding to a evolutionist while we were talking about transitional fossils. We all know David Berlinski, and if not, please learn about him...he is brilliant! But I basically postulated the same idea. How many transitional fossils would it take to convince me that humans and monkeys share a common ancestor. I said it depends on your quantitative estimate of the amount of changes. He then rebuked me by saying that that was IMPOSSIBLE to provide. He continued by saying that life exists on a spectrum and that we can not quantify a spectrum and you can not quantify the changes. I asked him how he uses fossils as evidence for evolution if there is no estimate. He said fossils do not matter to evolution. Is he correct that life is a spectrum? and If he is correct does that mean that genetics is also un-quantifiable...and if it's all un-quantifiable then how can we measure complex specified information and use it as evidence for Design? It seems like ID does fall apart if this is correct. Can someone help me!ForJah
May 27, 2013
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