Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

They said it: “atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist” — a fatal worldview error of modern evolutionary materialist atheism

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Prof. Dawkins of the UK, a leading evolutionary materialist and atheist

It is an open secret that a major motivation for the commonly encountered, too often angry  rejection of  the design inference is a prior commitment to Lewontinian evolutionary materialistic atheism; a common thread that unites a Sagan, a Lewontin, many members of Science institutions and Faculties of Universities, and of course many leading anti-design advocates like those associated with the US-based National Center for Science Education [NCSE], as well as leading “science” [–> atheism] blogs and Internet forums and the like.

Such atheists also often imagine that they have cornered the market on scientific rationality, common-sense and intelligence, to the point where professor Dawkins of the UK has proposed a new name for atheists: “brights.”

By contrast, he and many others of like ilk view those who object to such views as “ignorant, stupid, insane or . . . wicked.” (Perhaps, that is why one of the atheistical objectors to UD feels free to publicly and falsely accuse me of being a demented child abuser and serial rapist. He clearly cannot see how unhinged, unreasonable, irrational, uncouth, vulgar and rage-blinded his outrageous behaviour is.)

For telling instance, in Lewontin’s notorious 1997  NYRB article, Billions and Billions of Demons, we may see:

. . . to put a correct view of the universe into people’s heads we must first get an incorrect view out . . .   the problem is to get them to reject irrational and supernatural explanations of the world, the demons that exist only in their imaginations, and to accept a social and intellectual apparatus, Science, as the only begetter of truth [[NB: this is a knowledge claim about knowledge and its possible sources, i.e. it is a claim in philosophy not science; it is thus self-refuting]. . . . To Sagan, as to all but a few other scientists, it is self-evident [[actually, science and its knowledge claims are plainly not immediately and necessarily true on pain of absurdity, to one who understands them; this is another logical error, begging the question , confused for real self-evidence; whereby a claim shows itself not just true but true on pain of patent absurdity if one tries to deny it . . ] that the practices of science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality . . . .

It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes [[another major begging of the question . . . ] to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute [[i.e. here we see the fallacious, indoctrinated, ideological, closed mind . . . ], for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. [And, if you wish to try the now routine turnabout false accusation of quote mining, kindly cf. here at UD as well as the above linked.]

The ideologically motivated atheistical, evolutionary materialist a priori is plain.

No wonder Philip Johnson rebutted Lewontin thusly, in his November 1997 reply:

For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter. We might more accurately term them “materialists employing science.” And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence. That theory will necessarily be at least roughly like neo-Darwinism, in that it will have to involve some combination of random changes and law-like processes capable of producing complicated organisms that (in Dawkins’ words) “give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose.”  . . . .   The debate about creation and evolution is not deadlocked . . . Biblical literalism is not the issue. The issue is whether materialism and rationality are the same thing. Darwinism is based on an a priori commitment to materialism, not on a philosophically neutral assessment of the evidence. Separate the philosophy from the science, and the proud tower collapses. [[Emphasis added.] [[The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism, First Things, 77 (Nov. 1997), pp. 22 – 25.]

Consequently,  if we are to put the design inference issue on a level playing field so it can be objectively assessed as a valid scientific inference, we have to first address the fatal flaws of reasoning in the underlying thought that clothes materialistic atheism in the holy lab coat. (And of course,  given its sacrificial, protective purpose, it should be no surprise that I have never seen or owned an expensive lab coat.)

So, “scientific” atheism must now go under the microscope:

1 –> The first problem is to accurately define. For that, it is instructive to first cite the well known online Stanford Enc of Phil, in its article on Atheism and Agnosticism by J J C Smart of Monash University:

‘Atheism’ means the negation of theism, the denial of the existence of God. I shall here assume that the God in question is that of a sophisticated monotheism. The tribal gods of the early inhabitants of Palestine are of little or no philosophical interest. They were essentially finite beings, and the god of one tribe or collection of tribes was regarded as good in that it enabled victory in war against tribes with less powerful gods. Similarly the Greek and Roman gods were more like mythical heroes and heroines than like the omnipotent, omniscient and good God postulated in mediaeval and modern philosophy. As the Romans used the word, ‘atheist’ could be used to refer to theists of another religion, notably the Christians, and so merely to signify disbelief in their own mythical heroes. [First published Tue Mar 9, 2004; substantive revision Mon Aug 8, 2011. Acc: Nov 12, 2011.]

2 –> This is of course exactly what is traditionally understood, and it is what the etymology of the underlying Greek, “a + theos,” would suggest: the denial of the reality of God.  But, if one turns to the reliably evolutionary materialist Wikipedia, we will see that in its article on Atheism, there is now a commonly encountered evidently rhetorically loaded redefinition, as appears in the title for this post:

Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist. Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Atheism is contrasted with theism, which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists . . . . Atheists tend to be skeptical of supernatural claims, citing a lack of empirical evidence.

3 –> The last statement, of course, strongly reflects the Lewontinian a priori assertion of materialism, and the underlying notion that to have a supernatural as a possibility would make our cosmos into a chaos. Indeed as Lewontin went on to say: “To appeal to an omnipotent deity is to allow that at any moment the regularities of nature may be ruptured, that miracles may happen.”

4 –> Back of this, lies Hume’s basic hyper-skeptical error, in effect that there has been a uniform experience that firmly establishes the laws of nature and so we may dismiss any claimed supernatural exceptions as beyond reasonable belief. This boils down to begging the question in various ways, as first of all, we precisely do not and cannot have a global observational basis for the laws of science, they are inductive — thus fallible — generalisations. [Cf. Charles Babbage and Alfred Russel Wallace. (Yes, THAT Wallace, the co-founder of modern evolutionary theory and advocate of intelligent evolution.) Also cf a typical contemporary essay here.]

5 –> Similarly, for a miracle to stand out as being beyond the general course of the world, there must be just such a general course, i.e.  a world in which miracles are possible is one in which there will be general regularities amenable to scientific investigation. Informed theists will then tell us that, that the Author of that general course may, for His own good reasons, occasionally intervene at a higher level, in no wise detracts from the reliability of that general course. That is, Lewontin et al have erected and knocked over a ridicule-loaded strawman caricature of theism. (Newton knew better, 300 years ago in his General Scholium to Principia.)

6 –> Moreover, give that there are in fact millions who across centuries, testify to living encounter with God, and to being transformed thereby — including a generous slice of the leading lights of our civilisation across time [just try the likes of a Pascal, a Maxwell, a Kelvin or an Aquinas, for a quick list], to dismissively reject the possibility of miracles or the credibility of witnesses thereto inadvertently puts the human mind itself under suspicion.

7 –> For if so many millions are deluded, then the mind becomes highly questionable as an instrument of inquiry. That is, the atheist who imagines that those who oppose him are delusional, in the teeth of the numbers and quality of the people in question, saws off the cognitive branch on which he too must sit.

8 –> But, the very definition of atheism as “absence of belief in god or gods” that is now so commonly being pushed as the “real” definition, has deeper problems. For, it is usually offered as an argument that the atheist is simply taking a default view: YOU must prove your theism, I hold no position. (Cf. here too, just for fun.)

9 –> This is fallacious and misleading, indeed, a fatal worldview error. Why is that so?

a: It improperly shifts — and indeed ducks — the burden of warrant on comparative difficulties that any serious worldview must shoulder. If it is to be serious as a worldview.  (And, let me add {Nov14}: we all have worldviews— clusters of core beliefs, views and attitudes that define how we see the world; the question is whether we have thought them through to their idea-roots, connexions, degree of warrant, and forward to conclusions and consequences for us and our societies.)

b: An easy way to see all of this, is to notice how the very same atheists usually want to dress up their atheism in a lab coat.

c: For instance, as Lewontin tried to argue in his 1997 NYRB article, the a priori materialistic scientific elites want the general public to look up to them as the fountain of knowledge and wisdom, and to come to believe that science is “the only begetter of truth.”

d: But, this is NOT a scientific claim, it is a claim about the grounds that warrant knowledge, indeed an assertion of monopoly power over knowledge. Such is therefore properly a philosophical knowledge claim, i.e an epistemological claim.

e: Lewontin is trivially self-refuting.

f: But the claim is also illustrative of how claims at worldview level are inevitably linked to one another.

g: And, the denial or rejection of belief in God is plainly not an isolated claim, it sits in the centre of a cluster of evolutionary materialistic beliefs.

h: Indeed, Lewontin himself goes on to assert that the significant elites believe that “science” is the surest means to put us in touch with “physical reality” [= all of reality, for the materialist],  and that he and his ilk are committed to a priori, absolute materialism.

i: That is the context in which we see that science itself is being radically ideologised by question-begging redefinition. The declarations of the US National Science Teachers Association are particularly revealing on this, once we recognise that for “naturalistic” we can freely read “materialistic”:

The principal product of science is knowledge in the form of naturalistic concepts and the laws and theories related to those concepts . . . . Although no single universal step-by-step scientific method captures the complexity of doing science, a number of shared values and perspectives characterize a scientific approach to understanding nature. Among these are a demand for naturalistic explanations supported by empirical evidence that are, at least in principle, testable against the natural world. Other shared elements include observations, rational argument, inference, skepticism, peer review and replicability of work . . . .

Science, by definition, is limited to naturalistic methods and explanations and, as such, is precluded from using supernatural elements in the production of scientific knowledge. [[NSTA, Board of Directors, July 2000. Emphases added.]

j: This ideologises science and science education, tearing out of the heart of science any serious concern to seek the empirically warranted truth about our world, and to recognise the inescapable limitations of empirically based inductive methods in that pursuit which mean that science must be open-ended and provisional in its fact claims and explanations.

k: In short, the intellectual duty of care to critically assess the scientific materialism at the heart of the relevant form of atheism we face,  cannot be ducked so easily as by using the rhetorical tactic of putting up a question-begging redefinition of atheism.

l: This means that scientific atheists must warrant their evolutionary materialism,  they must warrant their redefinition of science based on imposition of so-called methodological naturalism, and they must warrant their commonly held view that science monopolises genuine, objective knowledge.

10 –> Evolutionary materialistic atheism, therefore, has a too often ducked challenge to warrant its worldview level claims, on (a) factual adequacy,  (b) logical coherence, and (c) explanatory balance and power [being elegantly simple, but not simplistic and certainly not ad hoc].

11 –> That means it needs to take seriously the implications of the empirically reliable principle that functionally specific complex organisation and associated information [especially digitally coded, symbolic information] — once we can directly observe the causal process — are inductively strong signs of design.

12 –> Similarly, it has to seriously address the issue of the best explanations for the credibly fine tuned cosmos we inhabit, which on evidence sits at a precise operating point that facilitates Carbon chemistry, aqueous medium cell based life that uses digital information to guide its self-replication and to synthesise the key nanomachines of metabolic life processes.

13 –> Likewise, it has to address the signs of design that are evident in the living cell, starting with the use of complex, functionally specific digital codes and algorithms to guide critical biochemical processes of life such as protein synthesis.

14 –> The need to account for the increments in complex functionally specific, integrated often irreducibly complex organisation and associated information to account for the dozens of body plans of multicellular life, including our own, is an extension of this challenge.

15 –> Similarly, such materialistic atheists need to credibly account for the reliability and trustworthiness of the human mind, in light of the Haldane challenge that has been on the table since the 1930’s (and of course modern extensions to that challenge):

“It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms.” [[“When I am dead,” in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209. ]

16 –> Last but not least, given the force of the amorality confessed to and/or directly implied by leading materialistic atheists such as Dawkins and Provine,  atheistical, evolutionary materialists need to very carefully ponder the issues that were long since put on the table by Plato in The Laws, Bk X, 2350 years ago, in 360 BC:

[[The avant garde philosophers, teachers and artists c. 400 BC] say that the greatest and fairest things are the work of nature and of chance, the lesser of art [[ i.e. techne], which, receiving from nature the greater and primeval creations, moulds and fashions all those lesser works which are generally termed artificial . . . They say that fire and water, and earth and air [[i.e the classical “material” elements of the cosmos], all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art, and that as to the bodies which come next in order-earth, and sun, and moon, and stars-they have been created by means of these absolutely inanimate existences. The elements are severally moved by chance and some inherent force according to certain affinities among them-of hot with cold, or of dry with moist, or of soft with hard, and according to all the other accidental admixtures of opposites which have been formed by necessity. After this fashion and in this manner the whole heaven has been created, and all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only . . . .

[[T]hese people would say that the Gods exist not by nature, but by art, and by the laws of states, which are different in different places, according to the agreement of those who make them; and that the honourable is one thing by nature and another thing by law, and that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.– [[Relativism, too, is not new; complete with its radical amorality rooted in a worldview that has no foundational IS that can ground OUGHT. (Cf. here for Locke’s views and sources on a very different base for grounding liberty as opposed to license and resulting anarchistic “every man does what is right in his own eyes” chaos leading to tyranny.)] These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might [[ Evolutionary materialism leads to the promotion of amorality], and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions [[Evolutionary materialism-motivated amorality “naturally” leads to continual contentions and power struggles; cf. dramatisation here],  these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is, to live in real dominion over others [[such amoral factions, if they gain power, “naturally” tend towards ruthless tyranny; here, too, Plato hints at the career of Alcibiades], and not in legal subjection to them . . .

__________

It seems there are a few questions for scientific atheists to answer to, before we should take their attempt to monopolise science as anything beyond an ideological agenda.

It would be quite interesting to see their answers. END

Comments
J, Well said.kairosfocus
November 17, 2011
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DrREC:
Then you infer ID in biology without having ever actually observed it.
Dude, if we directly observed design in biology happening we wouldn't need to infer it from the evidence left behind, duh. Archaeologists infer design because of the evidence left behind and their knowledge of cause and effect relationships. They did not observe Stonehenge being built. Cause and effect relationships-> we base the design inference on our knowledge of cause and effect relationships.Joseph
November 17, 2011
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William J Murray, One more try, and really just a burst -- annoying to have something you take time to write just get silently disappeared, so won't invest anything more than to say "nice discussing things with you", and it would be nice to continue, or bat around other topics in a more grown-up environment some time. eigenstate {EIGENSTATE: this is yet another snide suggestion, and more reason why you are asked again never to post again in this thread or any other that I post. FYI, I have not removed any comments you have put in this thread, silently or otherwise. For cause, I have pointed out that you have worn out your welcome, as you have an unresolved false accusation on the table that you refuse to deal with responsibly and have therefore shown you the door in defence of civility and a non-poisonous atmosphere. And, FYFI, there is a known problem with posting at UD with the new design, if you mistakenly click on REPLY, your post will go to the wrong thread, almost certainly. In addition, occasionally [rarely, but it happens], posting simply fails, and posts vanish into the netherworld of cyberspace for reasons probably best known to the designers of Wordpress and/or Akismet, so it would be wise to save comment posts elsewhere before posting, if you cannot bear to have that occasionally happen. If you have been placed in moderation or have been banned by UD's mods or have had a post that is specifically out of order removed by the mods, for something I do not know of, that is not anything to do with my regulation of this thread; where for cause I have simply invited you to leave, as you have crossed the border of civility; which hint, plainly, you have not taken. Now, unless you are willing to responsibly resolve the problem of your false accusation by use of a smearing term (and no, doubletalk tactics of pretending here that the namecalling smear term "Gish gallop" does not imply an accusation of willful deception will not solve the problem); kindly, leave now and do not return again to this or any other thread that I put up. Good day, sir. KF} eigenstate
November 17, 2011
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I would recommend that anyone who imagines such things evolving learn software development and robotics and build the simplest possible dam-building machine that can analyze its working space, gather materials, and construct a dam. Forget all the hard stuff like reproduction, metabolism, etc. Now take the information content of the software alone - forget the content required to assemble the machine itself - and there's a rough idea of how much information is required for beavers to build dams. Having done so, I would like to see whether that person could still imagine an evolutionary pathway to a similar result.ScottAndrews2
November 17, 2011
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kf, I suppose whatever a person believes could be called their "worldview." But I don't want to construct a worldview. If I do, the very best I can hope for is my own worldview. I can't believe that God gave us the Bible so we could each read it and construct a worldview. That's just aiming too low.ScottAndrews2
November 17, 2011
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SA, you are right, an empirically warranted evolutionary path to successful dam building (complete with decision nodes on gravity vs arch dams) would be a natural selection nightmare because a dam is an integrated, interactive whole. It would be a whole lot easier to see someone building a keystone flood control species maybe modifying a more generic rodent to do so, and putting it in place to do its job. KFkairosfocus
November 17, 2011
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SA, I cited Plato as an example of a religious worldview, one that happened to be set in the context of his dualistic, idealistic philosophy. If you want to take a look at specifically Bible based theism, you may want to look look here on for a worldviews based way to approach the matter. This may help give some other sides of the story that you may have seen in newsmags etc on modernist theologies. KFkairosfocus
November 17, 2011
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Pethruska,
We have the agency. We’ve observed it. We’ve put it under the microscope. We’ve observed it in carefully controlled experiments.
This is unsubstantiated and begging the question. You are asserting your conclusion. The extrapolation you would have us follow is not warranted. That's subjective, true, but there's no basis for closing the book and basing the history of biology on the sort of observations you mention.
We’ve compared this to the number of differences between cousin organisms and reconciled it with the time available for divergence.
Not having observed it, one can hardly run ahead and begin calculating how long it takes. You're calculating how fast the car can go based on how far it has to travel and how long it has to get there, but we have yet to see it start the engine and drive around the block, and the only evidence that it moves at all that it rolls downhill. Besides - whales?ScottAndrews2
November 17, 2011
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kf, True, but most religious views invoke God as their source, not Plato. One could argue, for example, that one book of the Bible is valid, another is not, another is partially, while one interpretation is mostly correct, another less so, and so one. That's how many people view it. But in doing so, they inadvertently imply that if God has ever intended to reveal any coherent purpose, laws, prophecies, or understanding of himself, that he has failed. He is incapable of it. He gave it his best, but people got hold of it and God is just no match for that. How can we not attribute that ability to God while crediting him with the creation of the universe?ScottAndrews2
November 17, 2011
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DrREC, Wow, this gets tangled. Not only do you have to have to explain a developmental pathway for the evolution of a beaver, but also the developmental pathway for the evolution of the dam. The beavers must experience genetic variations that slightly alter their dam-building methods in ways that improve the dams in ways that result in differential reproduction for the beavers that built them. The dams themselves become subjects of trial-and-error experiments, all carried out by unreasoning creatures that started out with no intent to build a dam or the capacity to imagine one or the benefits of having one. That's really steep. But beavers build dams in groups, so the individual beaver that varies in a manner that innovates some improvement in the dam-building process actually benefits all the beavers in the group equally, not just itself, making it problematic for its own variation to outreproduce others. How might this have begun? Once upon a time did a beaver develop a mutation that caused it randomly chuck a log into a stream, which somehow resulted in differential reproduction? How far must we veer off the path of science to even imagine such scenarios? I don't think anyone even has imagined them, and I'd be extremely impressed by even that.ScottAndrews2
November 17, 2011
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Petrushka, sorry, but design is effectively ruled out a priori by appeal to anti-supernatural prejudice, as Lewontin so plainly documents as just one example of a widespread pattern. And the way Darwin et al discussed design was effectively the same, including he way that say Paley's time-keeping, self replicating watch (as in read on to Ch II . . . ) seems to have slipped off the radar screen, in a rhetorical move that looks a LOT like setting up a strawman. Paley may have over-read his evidence in his argument [design of life on earth by itself does not implicate design of that life by God], but the issue of design he raised for the self-replicating watch needs to be seriously considered. KFkairosfocus
November 17, 2011
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Actually, worldviews (including "religious" ones) as a rule will not be wholly false or wholly true. One has to specifically assess the framework of claims and the way they are put together. I MAY THINK PLATO'S DEMIURGE IS MISTAKEN, BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT HIS PARABLE OF THE CAVE CAN SIMPLY BE BRUSHED ASIDE OR THAT HIS ANALYSIS OF MATERIALISM IS UTTERLY WORTHLESS.kairosfocus
November 17, 2011
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You will see that the first step of using the EF is to rule IN chance and/or necessity and/or agency as POSSIBILITIES.
But that was done by Darwin and extended over the past 150 years by tens of thousands of biologists. We have the agency. We've observed it. We've put it under the microscope. We've observed it in carefully controlled experiments. We've calculated how quickly it makes and fixes changes in populations. We've compared this to the number of differences between cousin organisms and reconciled it with the time available for divergence. Everyone who has done the math, including Behe, Michael Denton and Shapiro, accepts common descent and incremental change. A few people like Behe cite isolated islands of function for which we have no confirmed detailed incremental paths. What we don't have are instances where 500 bits of change have occurred in one step.Petrushka
November 17, 2011
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Dr Rec: Pardon, the matter at stake is an origins science one. Thus, we NEVER actually observe the past of origins. The task is to reasonably reconstruct on signs and the dynamics they point to. Across ALL domains of origins studies, so a selectively hyperskeptical objection is a red flag. And, the design of genomes is now something we have had proof of concept on for a generation, it is even a matter of public debate. We know the observed source of FSCI, we see FSCI, we know on good analysis that complex specifically complex code is unlikely indeed to arise by blind processes, and the matter should rest there as a no brainer. That it is contentious has to do with entrenched attitudes and ideologies, not evidence. And, that we are genetically programmed to be intelligent does not suddenly make us not intelligent. Just so with beavers. Just, this points out that we are secondary intelligences, i.e. we are the result of a design. That is what has the materialists in lab coats in a tizzy. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
November 17, 2011
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But you yourself conclude ants, termites, and " beaver's genome plainly has in it a program that gives dam building instructions and associated knowledge." I also think there is a HUGE difference between an imaginative, creative act of design, and a termite colony executing a genetic program. It is akin to development. My genome has fsci. It does not have much more or less fsci than my parent's. MY development was the execution of a genetic process, not a act of creative and imaginative design on my part. Simple observing me and my genome is NOT an observation of fsci over the universal probability bound arising at once. So the observation you need isn't in the beaver's dam (what, btw, is the calculated fsci of that?), but in the genes that give rise to the behavior. Which, could have gradually arisen over time, without exceeding the universal probability bound and causing a design inference. I think the issue here is that you observe design, say in my writing. ID. Then you infer ID in biology without having ever actually observed it.DrREC
November 17, 2011
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Dr Rec: Humans are intelligent, and so are beavers [as has been pointed out for some time now . . . and BTW, construction notoriously kills builders], as well as several other engineering creatures. Humans do not exhaust the set of observed intelligent designers. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
November 17, 2011
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Intelligence acing by choice could well be within the observable cosmos in many cases of interest.kairosfocus
November 17, 2011
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"The real issue is empirical observability of reliable signs of a given causal force or factor at work. ....... Once we have a good inductive basis for inference on sign, we are in business. Which we do. Try out Chi_500 = I*S – 500, bits beyond the solar system threshold." Still waiting for that example of design: that is, a single example of non-human biological design that exceeds the threshold at once. Otherwise, ID is unobserved and you have nothing on which to draw your inference.DrREC
November 17, 2011
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P: Re: one cannot apply the explanatory filter without ruling out natural explanations Kindly look here. You will see that the first step of using the EF is to rule IN chance and/or necessity and/or agency as POSSIBILITIES. In short, once one considers an object, phenomenon or process, one must be OPEN to the range of known causal factors, and must not use a priori censorship. Then, the first default possibility is mechanical necessity showing itself in lawlike regularity. So, under similar initial conditions, with low contingency, we predictably/reliably get similar outcomes. That low contingency and predictability allow us to identify laws, and then to embed empirical laws in wider explanatory frameworks. Think Brahe --> Kepler --> Newton --> Einstein. Under other circumstances, similar initial conditions lead to widely varying outcomes. That rules out lawlike regularities, and rules in chance and/or choice. If these varied outcomes follow the sort of patterns sampling theory predicts for a stochastic distribution, then the best explanation for that aspect of the phenomenon, process or object, is a stochastic process, like say the Maxwell Boltzmann distribution for an ideal gas. Sample the molecules shooting out of a collimator and we get a speed distribution with an asymmetric bell-like shape. Similar initial conditions, variable outcomes, on a distribution where certain clusters of outcomes are far more likely than others. We then go on to model the distribution and underlying dynamics. But what if we have outcomes that come from separately describable narrow zones of possibilities that a reasonable stochastic model and/or sampling theory will tell us are quite unlikely to be observed by chance on available opportunities, but are very feasible by choice? For instance the sequence of glyphs in this post are utterly unlikely to be a contextually responsive message in English by chance [notice the separate specification], but could easily be so by choice. This points to how FSCO/I is an example of a strong sign that points to design as best explanatory causal factor. I need not elaborate much on how, such is foundational to the existence of DNA-driven cell based life, starting from OOL and the associated von Neumann self replicator. Using the same like causes like reasoning that geologists etc use, we have every epistemic right to see such FSCO/I as a sign that points to design. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
November 17, 2011
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I haven’t met anyone yet who thinks that all religions are equally supported by evidence.
Most people don't think it through. It's also not considered politically correct. But how can anyone live their life according to a set of beliefs and not believe that someone else who believes the opposite is wrong? It's not about being dogmatic or not being humble. But by nature, to believe that something is true means believing that what contradicts it is false. I've heard some clever rationalizations, but it seems self-evident.ScottAndrews2
November 17, 2011
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On the contrary P: The real point of Lewontin et al is contempt-laced (as in, you must be ignorant, stupid, insane/irrational or wicked to disagree . . . ) ideological a priori materialism imposed in the name of science, which it keeps captive to its agenda. And I think that should be plain enough to those looking on who are not in denial and are not afraid to see what their eyes and basic knowledge of English tell them is going on. Nor is this sort of attitude new, as Wallace informs us, 140 years ago it was advanced in the name of good education and soundly skeptical philosophy. 2350 years ago, Plato warned about much the same -- as can be seen in the original post. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
November 17, 2011
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I still suspect you are trying to avoid admitting that you personally judge some religions as having a better factual or evidential basis than others.
Some do. That doesn't mean they are true.
I haven’t met anyone yet who thinks that all religions are equally supported by evidence.
And you still haven't. That's not what I said or even what I implied. Because one theistic view is better supported by evidence and logic doesn't make the other one (1) not true, and doesn't make it (2) a superstition. Just because the general theory of relativity is a more substantiated and applicable theory than classic Newtonian physics doesn't render Newtonian physics (1) untrue or (2) a superstition. They are models that attempt to describe what we take as an objectively existent commodity (or set of commodities). IMO, being right or wrong about one's particular religious doctrine has about the same effect as being right or wrong about which general theory of physics is true (probably where I break ranks with many others here): not much, until you get into the deeper stuff. What matters is that one doesn't try to fly off a cliff or build a tower while ignoring structural integrity and support considerations. Or, on the other side of the analogy, what matters is that you don't round up Jews and herd them into gas chambers or beat up little old ladies for their social security checks. That's all the theistic theory you need to get by, for the most part, and you don't need an advanced degree to figure that out.William J Murray
November 17, 2011
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That doesn’t make sense. If the first step to applying the explanatory filter was to rule out natural explanations, what other steps would there be?
The first step is the rule out necessity or lawful behavior. For the last century or so, lawful behavior includes statistical aggregates. Population genetics is a way of dealing with the statistical aggregate of random genetic change. This is the area that is amenable to research. this is what occupies the research efforts of evolutionary biologists. What makes no sense is taking the current state of a system and ignoring the processes involved in reaching that state. One might as well ask, in a criminal investigation, what are the chances that a specific individual was in a specific location at a specific time, and compute the odds by making a four dimensional grid and counting the total possible locations. Ignoring whether the suspect was last seen in the general vicinity.Petrushka
November 17, 2011
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I suspect that most people are interested in factuality, at least in the sense that legal cases are decided by preponderance of evidence. Truth and falseness are attributes of logical deductions, but their factuality is completely dependent on premises. I still suspect you are trying to avoid admitting that you personally judge some religions as having a better factual or evidential basis than others. I haven't met anyone yet who thinks that all religions are equally supported by evidence.Petrushka
November 17, 2011
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If you mean that Darwinism and Atheism are "subjective attempts to model ...", yes - they are both subjective (by individual or groups) attempts to model empirical facts (objective commodities, or commodities assumed to be objective) into a descriptive or explanatory model. I personally assign relative validity of such models by means of evaluating how well the model comports with fact & evidence, and by judging the rational warrant, coherency, consistency, and the logical consequences of the model or belief. That doesn't mean that any beliefs are factually true or false - that's just how I weigh relative validity.William J Murray
November 17, 2011
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Scott, "Forgive me, but" That's fine. It is a usual misunderstanding. Please don't think I am proselytising. Here is what I think on this point. By the word Church I mean the Orthodox Christian Church. It is not my purpose to hurt anyone's religious sensitivities but I have to witness when asked (1 Peter 3:15-16). Basically, the only purpose of theology is responding to distortions of faith that always happened in history. There would have been no need to "invent" anything, had there been no "fables" or heathen teachings invented/reintroduced, e.g. gnosticism. The Church, being a living organism, the mystical body of Christ that has both divine and human (and therefore sinful) elements, has reacted to "infections" in this way. Many ancient heresies were in fact attempts to distort Divine Revelation about Christ, who is both man and God, One of the Holy Trinity. So was the case with Monothelites. As regards doctrine, the only thing I will say here is that what appears to be a small detail, can have huge implications in spiritual life. For me, as an Orthodox Christian, it is the Church which is the authority, not feeble human reasoning. BTW, the concept of Biblical authority is taught by the Church from day one, i.e. the day of Pentecost AD 33. In Orthodox Christian tradition has it that the only possible way to correctly interpret the Scriptures is by actually living in the Church guided by the Holy Spirit. The Church planted by Christ and the Apostles has been around continuously for nearly two millennia now. What was then as tiny as a mustard seed is now a big tree bearing fruit, uncountable saints throughout the world. I value the opportunity to speak to you and other commenters here on this blog. My primary interest here is of course ID related questions.Eugene S
November 17, 2011
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I suppose then, that since Folks here tend to assert that Darwinism and atheism are religions, they fall into the category of "subjective attempts to model a very difficult-to-understand, objectively existent commodity (or set of commodities)." Do you personally make any qualitative distinctions among the various subjective attempts? Are they all equally valid?Petrushka
November 17, 2011
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I suspect that given a list of religions that have existed, you would agree that the majority are false and superstitious.
No, I would not. Be careful what you assume. What I would say is that they are all subjective attempts to model a very difficult-to-understand, objectively existent commodity (or set of commodities).William J Murray
November 17, 2011
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Yes, and this is why what you do here is important. IMO, people like Eigenstate and perhaps Dr Liddle have relatively passive and benign atheistic perspectives, but theirs is not representative of the more aggressive atheistic/materialistic view that marginalizes, disimisses, and ridicules those who hold theistic beliefs. This generalized and pointed attack on religion and theism from the scientific community outwards into other social areas enables and authorizes the deliberate disenfranchisment of people with religious beliefs. Many people who visit forums like this, or are engaged in other public and media venues, consider it their obligation to ridicule and harass the religious as part of a social obligation to drive or weed out incorrect thinking - just as Lewontin admonished, as if it is a scientific fact that there is no god, no afterlife, no soul and no sin. This is a deeper cultural, worldview movement than a simple, isolated "lack of a belief", or which can be likened to "stamp collecting". Such comparisons and such atheistic apologetics, IMO, ignore and enable the larger problems we face as atheistic materialism as a deeper worldview becomes more pervasive and affects more and more aspects of our entire culture. Also, those who have not entirely thought out the ramifications of their worldview, and whether or not it is rationally justifiable, might want to think it through more completely before defending or advocating it. While some might not advocate or defend in particular the more aggressive forms of atheism & materialism, their apologetics and apparently unconsidered (in terms of warrant & consequence) advocacy of such concepts into the social community nonetheless makes them in their part culpable for the ramifications. One might consider that there might be a reason why many of the great atheistic and materialistic philosophers succumbed to nihilistic despair & suicide. Because one injects a more benign version of the same spiritual (or mental) poison into society doesn't mean it isn't doing damage. There are consequences to the ideas we advance to others.William J Murray
November 17, 2011
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Petrushka, There are plenty of sciences that seek non-natural explanations. A coroner who rules a death as a homicide is making a declaration that the cause of death was non-natural, even though he may not have complete information regarding the who, how, or why of the cause.
The relevance to ID is that one cannot apply the explanatory filter without ruling out natural explanations. It is the first and most important step in applying the filter.
That doesn't make sense. If the first step to applying the explanatory filter was to rule out natural explanations, what other steps would there be? The first step to performing any test, including ID, is never to assume the outcome. That negates the concept of a test. The reverse is true, though. The first step to explaining anything biology is to arbitrarily rule out any design or intent. They just don't call it a "step" because it's taken for granted.ScottAndrews2
November 17, 2011
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