Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

They said it: “atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist” — a fatal worldview error of modern evolutionary materialist atheism

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Prof. Dawkins of the UK, a leading evolutionary materialist and atheist

It is an open secret that a major motivation for the commonly encountered, too often angry  rejection of  the design inference is a prior commitment to Lewontinian evolutionary materialistic atheism; a common thread that unites a Sagan, a Lewontin, many members of Science institutions and Faculties of Universities, and of course many leading anti-design advocates like those associated with the US-based National Center for Science Education [NCSE], as well as leading “science” [–> atheism] blogs and Internet forums and the like.

Such atheists also often imagine that they have cornered the market on scientific rationality, common-sense and intelligence, to the point where professor Dawkins of the UK has proposed a new name for atheists: “brights.”

By contrast, he and many others of like ilk view those who object to such views as “ignorant, stupid, insane or . . . wicked.” (Perhaps, that is why one of the atheistical objectors to UD feels free to publicly and falsely accuse me of being a demented child abuser and serial rapist. He clearly cannot see how unhinged, unreasonable, irrational, uncouth, vulgar and rage-blinded his outrageous behaviour is.)

For telling instance, in Lewontin’s notorious 1997  NYRB article, Billions and Billions of Demons, we may see:

. . . to put a correct view of the universe into people’s heads we must first get an incorrect view out . . .   the problem is to get them to reject irrational and supernatural explanations of the world, the demons that exist only in their imaginations, and to accept a social and intellectual apparatus, Science, as the only begetter of truth [[NB: this is a knowledge claim about knowledge and its possible sources, i.e. it is a claim in philosophy not science; it is thus self-refuting]. . . . To Sagan, as to all but a few other scientists, it is self-evident [[actually, science and its knowledge claims are plainly not immediately and necessarily true on pain of absurdity, to one who understands them; this is another logical error, begging the question , confused for real self-evidence; whereby a claim shows itself not just true but true on pain of patent absurdity if one tries to deny it . . ] that the practices of science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality . . . .

It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes [[another major begging of the question . . . ] to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute [[i.e. here we see the fallacious, indoctrinated, ideological, closed mind . . . ], for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. [And, if you wish to try the now routine turnabout false accusation of quote mining, kindly cf. here at UD as well as the above linked.]

The ideologically motivated atheistical, evolutionary materialist a priori is plain.

No wonder Philip Johnson rebutted Lewontin thusly, in his November 1997 reply:

For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter. We might more accurately term them “materialists employing science.” And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence. That theory will necessarily be at least roughly like neo-Darwinism, in that it will have to involve some combination of random changes and law-like processes capable of producing complicated organisms that (in Dawkins’ words) “give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose.”  . . . .   The debate about creation and evolution is not deadlocked . . . Biblical literalism is not the issue. The issue is whether materialism and rationality are the same thing. Darwinism is based on an a priori commitment to materialism, not on a philosophically neutral assessment of the evidence. Separate the philosophy from the science, and the proud tower collapses. [[Emphasis added.] [[The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism, First Things, 77 (Nov. 1997), pp. 22 – 25.]

Consequently,  if we are to put the design inference issue on a level playing field so it can be objectively assessed as a valid scientific inference, we have to first address the fatal flaws of reasoning in the underlying thought that clothes materialistic atheism in the holy lab coat. (And of course,  given its sacrificial, protective purpose, it should be no surprise that I have never seen or owned an expensive lab coat.)

So, “scientific” atheism must now go under the microscope:

1 –> The first problem is to accurately define. For that, it is instructive to first cite the well known online Stanford Enc of Phil, in its article on Atheism and Agnosticism by J J C Smart of Monash University:

‘Atheism’ means the negation of theism, the denial of the existence of God. I shall here assume that the God in question is that of a sophisticated monotheism. The tribal gods of the early inhabitants of Palestine are of little or no philosophical interest. They were essentially finite beings, and the god of one tribe or collection of tribes was regarded as good in that it enabled victory in war against tribes with less powerful gods. Similarly the Greek and Roman gods were more like mythical heroes and heroines than like the omnipotent, omniscient and good God postulated in mediaeval and modern philosophy. As the Romans used the word, ‘atheist’ could be used to refer to theists of another religion, notably the Christians, and so merely to signify disbelief in their own mythical heroes. [First published Tue Mar 9, 2004; substantive revision Mon Aug 8, 2011. Acc: Nov 12, 2011.]

2 –> This is of course exactly what is traditionally understood, and it is what the etymology of the underlying Greek, “a + theos,” would suggest: the denial of the reality of God.  But, if one turns to the reliably evolutionary materialist Wikipedia, we will see that in its article on Atheism, there is now a commonly encountered evidently rhetorically loaded redefinition, as appears in the title for this post:

Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist. Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Atheism is contrasted with theism, which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists . . . . Atheists tend to be skeptical of supernatural claims, citing a lack of empirical evidence.

3 –> The last statement, of course, strongly reflects the Lewontinian a priori assertion of materialism, and the underlying notion that to have a supernatural as a possibility would make our cosmos into a chaos. Indeed as Lewontin went on to say: “To appeal to an omnipotent deity is to allow that at any moment the regularities of nature may be ruptured, that miracles may happen.”

4 –> Back of this, lies Hume’s basic hyper-skeptical error, in effect that there has been a uniform experience that firmly establishes the laws of nature and so we may dismiss any claimed supernatural exceptions as beyond reasonable belief. This boils down to begging the question in various ways, as first of all, we precisely do not and cannot have a global observational basis for the laws of science, they are inductive — thus fallible — generalisations. [Cf. Charles Babbage and Alfred Russel Wallace. (Yes, THAT Wallace, the co-founder of modern evolutionary theory and advocate of intelligent evolution.) Also cf a typical contemporary essay here.]

5 –> Similarly, for a miracle to stand out as being beyond the general course of the world, there must be just such a general course, i.e.  a world in which miracles are possible is one in which there will be general regularities amenable to scientific investigation. Informed theists will then tell us that, that the Author of that general course may, for His own good reasons, occasionally intervene at a higher level, in no wise detracts from the reliability of that general course. That is, Lewontin et al have erected and knocked over a ridicule-loaded strawman caricature of theism. (Newton knew better, 300 years ago in his General Scholium to Principia.)

6 –> Moreover, give that there are in fact millions who across centuries, testify to living encounter with God, and to being transformed thereby — including a generous slice of the leading lights of our civilisation across time [just try the likes of a Pascal, a Maxwell, a Kelvin or an Aquinas, for a quick list], to dismissively reject the possibility of miracles or the credibility of witnesses thereto inadvertently puts the human mind itself under suspicion.

7 –> For if so many millions are deluded, then the mind becomes highly questionable as an instrument of inquiry. That is, the atheist who imagines that those who oppose him are delusional, in the teeth of the numbers and quality of the people in question, saws off the cognitive branch on which he too must sit.

8 –> But, the very definition of atheism as “absence of belief in god or gods” that is now so commonly being pushed as the “real” definition, has deeper problems. For, it is usually offered as an argument that the atheist is simply taking a default view: YOU must prove your theism, I hold no position. (Cf. here too, just for fun.)

9 –> This is fallacious and misleading, indeed, a fatal worldview error. Why is that so?

a: It improperly shifts — and indeed ducks — the burden of warrant on comparative difficulties that any serious worldview must shoulder. If it is to be serious as a worldview.  (And, let me add {Nov14}: we all have worldviews— clusters of core beliefs, views and attitudes that define how we see the world; the question is whether we have thought them through to their idea-roots, connexions, degree of warrant, and forward to conclusions and consequences for us and our societies.)

b: An easy way to see all of this, is to notice how the very same atheists usually want to dress up their atheism in a lab coat.

c: For instance, as Lewontin tried to argue in his 1997 NYRB article, the a priori materialistic scientific elites want the general public to look up to them as the fountain of knowledge and wisdom, and to come to believe that science is “the only begetter of truth.”

d: But, this is NOT a scientific claim, it is a claim about the grounds that warrant knowledge, indeed an assertion of monopoly power over knowledge. Such is therefore properly a philosophical knowledge claim, i.e an epistemological claim.

e: Lewontin is trivially self-refuting.

f: But the claim is also illustrative of how claims at worldview level are inevitably linked to one another.

g: And, the denial or rejection of belief in God is plainly not an isolated claim, it sits in the centre of a cluster of evolutionary materialistic beliefs.

h: Indeed, Lewontin himself goes on to assert that the significant elites believe that “science” is the surest means to put us in touch with “physical reality” [= all of reality, for the materialist],  and that he and his ilk are committed to a priori, absolute materialism.

i: That is the context in which we see that science itself is being radically ideologised by question-begging redefinition. The declarations of the US National Science Teachers Association are particularly revealing on this, once we recognise that for “naturalistic” we can freely read “materialistic”:

The principal product of science is knowledge in the form of naturalistic concepts and the laws and theories related to those concepts . . . . Although no single universal step-by-step scientific method captures the complexity of doing science, a number of shared values and perspectives characterize a scientific approach to understanding nature. Among these are a demand for naturalistic explanations supported by empirical evidence that are, at least in principle, testable against the natural world. Other shared elements include observations, rational argument, inference, skepticism, peer review and replicability of work . . . .

Science, by definition, is limited to naturalistic methods and explanations and, as such, is precluded from using supernatural elements in the production of scientific knowledge. [[NSTA, Board of Directors, July 2000. Emphases added.]

j: This ideologises science and science education, tearing out of the heart of science any serious concern to seek the empirically warranted truth about our world, and to recognise the inescapable limitations of empirically based inductive methods in that pursuit which mean that science must be open-ended and provisional in its fact claims and explanations.

k: In short, the intellectual duty of care to critically assess the scientific materialism at the heart of the relevant form of atheism we face,  cannot be ducked so easily as by using the rhetorical tactic of putting up a question-begging redefinition of atheism.

l: This means that scientific atheists must warrant their evolutionary materialism,  they must warrant their redefinition of science based on imposition of so-called methodological naturalism, and they must warrant their commonly held view that science monopolises genuine, objective knowledge.

10 –> Evolutionary materialistic atheism, therefore, has a too often ducked challenge to warrant its worldview level claims, on (a) factual adequacy,  (b) logical coherence, and (c) explanatory balance and power [being elegantly simple, but not simplistic and certainly not ad hoc].

11 –> That means it needs to take seriously the implications of the empirically reliable principle that functionally specific complex organisation and associated information [especially digitally coded, symbolic information] — once we can directly observe the causal process — are inductively strong signs of design.

12 –> Similarly, it has to seriously address the issue of the best explanations for the credibly fine tuned cosmos we inhabit, which on evidence sits at a precise operating point that facilitates Carbon chemistry, aqueous medium cell based life that uses digital information to guide its self-replication and to synthesise the key nanomachines of metabolic life processes.

13 –> Likewise, it has to address the signs of design that are evident in the living cell, starting with the use of complex, functionally specific digital codes and algorithms to guide critical biochemical processes of life such as protein synthesis.

14 –> The need to account for the increments in complex functionally specific, integrated often irreducibly complex organisation and associated information to account for the dozens of body plans of multicellular life, including our own, is an extension of this challenge.

15 –> Similarly, such materialistic atheists need to credibly account for the reliability and trustworthiness of the human mind, in light of the Haldane challenge that has been on the table since the 1930’s (and of course modern extensions to that challenge):

“It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms.” [[“When I am dead,” in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209. ]

16 –> Last but not least, given the force of the amorality confessed to and/or directly implied by leading materialistic atheists such as Dawkins and Provine,  atheistical, evolutionary materialists need to very carefully ponder the issues that were long since put on the table by Plato in The Laws, Bk X, 2350 years ago, in 360 BC:

[[The avant garde philosophers, teachers and artists c. 400 BC] say that the greatest and fairest things are the work of nature and of chance, the lesser of art [[ i.e. techne], which, receiving from nature the greater and primeval creations, moulds and fashions all those lesser works which are generally termed artificial . . . They say that fire and water, and earth and air [[i.e the classical “material” elements of the cosmos], all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art, and that as to the bodies which come next in order-earth, and sun, and moon, and stars-they have been created by means of these absolutely inanimate existences. The elements are severally moved by chance and some inherent force according to certain affinities among them-of hot with cold, or of dry with moist, or of soft with hard, and according to all the other accidental admixtures of opposites which have been formed by necessity. After this fashion and in this manner the whole heaven has been created, and all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only . . . .

[[T]hese people would say that the Gods exist not by nature, but by art, and by the laws of states, which are different in different places, according to the agreement of those who make them; and that the honourable is one thing by nature and another thing by law, and that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.– [[Relativism, too, is not new; complete with its radical amorality rooted in a worldview that has no foundational IS that can ground OUGHT. (Cf. here for Locke’s views and sources on a very different base for grounding liberty as opposed to license and resulting anarchistic “every man does what is right in his own eyes” chaos leading to tyranny.)] These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might [[ Evolutionary materialism leads to the promotion of amorality], and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions [[Evolutionary materialism-motivated amorality “naturally” leads to continual contentions and power struggles; cf. dramatisation here],  these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is, to live in real dominion over others [[such amoral factions, if they gain power, “naturally” tend towards ruthless tyranny; here, too, Plato hints at the career of Alcibiades], and not in legal subjection to them . . .

__________

It seems there are a few questions for scientific atheists to answer to, before we should take their attempt to monopolise science as anything beyond an ideological agenda.

It would be quite interesting to see their answers. END

Comments
eigenstate:
Perhaps there is some way that “immaterial substance” can be apprehended as more than a self-contradicting term, but if there is, we are not aware of any such physic. That means that “mind”, for example, is “non-material” in a casual, colloquial sense — we can’t touch or see our ‘mind’, we suppose — but material in the rigorous sense: a complex set of electro-chemical patterns that occur in the brain.
Thanks for the thoughtful response. I guess I want to say a few things. First, you haven't said anything about "free will". That's fine. Maybe we can work on the "mind" part and then switch over(which I do towards the end here). Second, "mind" as an "immaterial substance" suits me just fine; and, I suppose, when you say "we are not aware of any such physic", you're really saying that there's no physical entity that is "mind", nor, are there any ways of measuring for its existence. If that's the case, supposing I've interpreted you correctly, then aren't we in the very same situation as we are with "gravity"? IOW, we don't "see" gravity directly, but only its effects. Likewise, we don't see a "mind", but we do see its effects---my response to you being such an effect. Again, if I've understood you correctly, then when you say of "mind," in the "rigorous" sense, that it is "a complex set of electro-chemical patterns that occur in the brain,' you're describing a physical substance that finds itself in a particular "eigenstate" (hence your username!)? Do I have that correctly? I wonder if this doesn't get us back to "free will"? If the "mind" is but a particular eigenstate of this physical substrate you describe, then, since electro-chemical patterns follow mechanistic laws, the output of the "mind" could be argued to be determined, and hence that there really is no such thing as "free will". I'm rather sure this would be your position. Do I have it down correctly? But, then, how do we explain such things as "creativity", or "beauty"? How do we explain "love", and the fact that generation after generation people fall in "love"? How do we explain ESP? or "out of body" experiences? (In fact, I should mention Fr. Robert Spitzer's new book; I think the title is: "New Proofs of Existence . . .", which deals with multiverse theory and such. He says that atheists have a hard time with "out of body" experiences, especially the one of the man born blind who, when "out of his body" was able to "see".) And, of course, other kinds of metaphysical experiences*. I'll just leave it here for right now, and wait for your response and clarifications. *[E.g., when I was 19 and in the chemistry building, I was talking to the stockroom clerk and then, suddenly, found myself looking in a direction almost 90 degrees to my right. I then saw a young woman through an open door whom I had never seen before in the chemistry department. She walked straight in to the stockroom and began to speak---at which time I went back to looking at the stockroom clerk who had been speaking the whole time. When I got hold of my senses, I looked 90 degrees to my left, and, lo and behold, I saw that same young woman, through the same door I had somehow seen just twenty seconds earlier. She walked in and said, word-for-word, what I had already heard her say twenty seconds earlier. How do you explain this?]PaV
November 15, 2011
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@kairosfocus, I'll just ask you to read, again, what I said in my comment which your replied to. I don't know why you have just ignored this, maybe your time constraints didn't allow for a good scan. But here it is, pulled out by itself:
No, that’s not the case. I believe you believe what you are posting is true, so that would not be lying on your part. I believe the same thing about Gish.
I go on to point out that the nature of my criticism is not a complaint against lying, but a complaint about exploiting bandwidth in attempts to dominate a conversation, compounded by the conceit that such spewing has made headway against your opponents when one of the many scattered points goes unanswered. It's a problem of form and social netiquette in a forum like this, and obtains even if I stipulate, arguendo that everything you posted was true. But I repeat myself. Lying was and is not the problem. The gallop is a problem of form, not a problem of veracity. It's all up there, more than once, in my earlier comments, if will take time to read them.eigenstate
November 15, 2011
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EIGENSTATE: Given the seriousness, kindly address the matter in 16.1.1 above, within the next 24 hours. Good day. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
November 15, 2011
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Eigenstate: I have not got time at the moment to run down a long list of point by point responses. Later, I will respond. Just note that I have EXPLICITLY, from the outset only and always spoken of atheism as a component of a worldview, specifically atheism as proposition, often presented for rhetorical reasons in a passive form, but a moment's reflection will show that this is meant to be evasive and to improperly arrogate a worldview default. Which is what I objected to, and on seeing how you confused this, put in clarifying details in the hope that this would make the point even more clear. I do not appreciate the points-scoring rhetoric in response, given the more basic problem I now have with you: false accusation. That, I must now address. I simply note that -- per the cite from the definition at the so-called Rational Wiki -- LYING is an integral part of the definition of the so-called Gish Gallop [which is itself a gratuitous insult and slander to a person], which you used of the OP etc. In addition, this was in the context where you had earlier termed the original post "disingenuous." So, you DO and DID mean to call me a liar by direct implication. By direct implication, therefore, you have called me a liar. Address that clearly, either substantiating it or withdrawing it with explanation/apology. IF YOU DO NOT, THEN PLEASE LEAVE THIS THREAD AND DO NOT EVER COMMENT IN ANY THREAD I POST HEREAFTER. Given the significance of the matter, you will understand why I expect a reasonable answer within 24 hours. Good day, sir GEM of TKIkairosfocus
November 15, 2011
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Graham: Again, the pattern is that if there are short, newsy posts at UD that is objectionable. If there are longer more analytical posts, that too is objectionable. The real pattern seems to be that the objectors would prefer no posts at UD. There is a simple solution to that, if you prefer no posts here, then do not visit. But then, it seems the real problem then emerges: you don't want OTHER people visiting here and getting "contaminated" with design thought, it seems. So, the objection falls apart. Yes, the posts in this sequence are on fairly complex matters and as a result are fairly involved. But hey are not random mish-mashes of jottings, as I just proved step by step. And yet that was ESt's objection. That suggests a want of willingness to think carefully before objecting. Multiply by the "Gish Gallop" false accusation that directly implies "liar" -- without sound warrant -- and it is soon evident that what is going on is ideological not reasonable. If you really want to shut down UD, all you have to do is provide solid empirical evidence -- not question-begging a priori imposition of materialism -- that blind chance and mechanical necessity can in our observation produce functionally specific complex information beyond 500 - 1,000 bits. Failing that we have every scientific right to infer from the billions of cases in point, that such FSCI is a reliable sign of design. And to infer form that that life with complex coded DNA that works symbolically and algorithmically is designed, however that makes atheists etc feel. As for the "few people read," I think the pattern of responses and page views says otherwise. Good day GEM of TKIkairosfocus
November 15, 2011
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Eigenstate, To sum up (correct if I'm incorrectly paraphrasing you and extrapolating thereof here): 1. The natural in "methodological naturalism" is used to distinguish it from "supernatural", which is (for our purposes, anyway) defined as that which is not observable (meaning, is itself not observable and has no observable, predictive effects). 2. As in the case of gravity and entropy, as long as a predictable effect (or set of effects) is observable, then we regard the unobserved "thing it itself" (inasmuch as we can observe things themselves) as scientific in that our model of "what it does" is constructed of observable, predictive effects. Our terms (gravity, entropy) become placeholders for the set of effects being described. 3. Effects generated by intelligent, deliberate agencies (humans, hypothetical intelligent extraterrestrials) fall within the domain of scientific scrutiny (as in cryptography, forensics, archaeology, etc.) Even if the specific intelligent agency is unknown to us (as in the above cases, or in the case of finding artificial alien artifacts on other worlds), as a placeholder term for a set of predictable or recognizable effects, "intelligent design" is a scientific concept (within the bounds of methodological naturalism) whether or not one agrees that the current metric for discerning ID effects (FSCO/I > 1000 bits) from non-ID effects is accurate. If we are agreed to this point, then I don't see why it would be unscientific to refer to a class of effects that bear the markers of intelligent design and appear to be as fundamental as gravity or entropy (in generating, among other things, a finely-tuned cosmos), and in the same sense that we call a set of effects "gravity", we refer to that fundamental set of effects "god". In this sense, god is not being referred to as a "supernatural" entity, but as entirely "natural" under your definition (which includes intelligent agencies and their effects). In the beginning, you explained that "supernatural" means anything that is unobserved, and produces unobserved or unpredictable effects. If we agree that most supernatural agencies are considered to be intelligent or at least deliberate, and most claimed interactions with "the supernatural" posit that the supernatural agency was in fact observable in some sense (sight, sound, smell, feel), and many such experiencers refer to what would be predictable effects of such encounters, I'm not sure what specific phenomena ever claimed by anyone to have been encountered, or to exist, would qualify as "supernatural" under this exclusionary rule (including ghosts, demons, psi effects, angelic visitation, OOBEs, etc.). Even if people claimed that god answers prayers, "god" as an unseen, intelligent force isn't excluded from scientific investigation by rule as long as there are predictable sets of effects that can be scientifically investigated; thus positing "god" as an unseen, intelligent force that generates predictable, intelligently designed effects towards a goal can be a scientific hypothesis or even theory, given any success for the model. It seems to me that there is no reason other than a priori atheism to prevent the divine foot per se as long as the divine foot is producing observable, predictable effects (in the same categorical sense that other intelligent agents produce observable, predictable effects). Can you provide me with a specific example of what would be supernatural and excluded from scientific investigation, and can you explain why such a concept of god is necessarily excluded via your explanation?William J Murray
November 15, 2011
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And it is these discoveries and the irrational neo-darwinian denials of anything pointing to design that lead me to abandon evolution(theistic evolution) and move to intelligent design. It was also these discoveries that lead Antony Flew from abandoning his former irrational atheistic worldview in light of the many discoveries of the universe and the living cell. I guess flew, being a heavyweight of heavyweights in atheism must have turned crazy for coming over to the intelligent design movement huh?wallstreeter43
November 14, 2011
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@PaV.
Per your statement, string theory can’t “contribute to knowledge”. And there are all kinds of other examples of what is considered to be science that doesn’t fit the bill either.
Agree, and have noted just that point with respect to string theory here on this blog in the last several days (I forget which thread, but could probably search to find it if pressed for the link).
String Theory is presented to the scientific community as a quasi Theory of Everything, and yet, per Lee Smolin, it makes NO measurable predictions.
That's basically correct, but it's more complicated than that. String Theory doesn't make novel and measurable predictions that distinguish it from the theories it is trying to unify (QM and GR). Even put that way, that's not complete, as there is controversy about whether some predictions which are entailed by String Theory and are novel with respect to both QM and GR (thus distinguishing it from both) are IN PRINCIPLE testable. It's agreed that as a practical matter, here and now, these predictions aren't testable, given our current technological limitations. For example, Ira Rothstein from Carnegie Mellon advanced a test for W boson scattering several years ago that was ostensibly practical in the then-being-built Large Hadron Collider. Even before the LHC was deployed, questions about the uniqueness and perspicacity of this test were raised. As far as I know, they are still sifting through the enormous piles of data as they wind down the LHC for 2011, and the only things out so far are sketchy "scoops" from various physics blogs following the investigation. The current take is that no new physics came into view from these tests, but neither did the Higgs boson. Investigators are skeptical as to whether there is any data that conclusively will support a conclusive verdict either way on the Higgs boson. All of which I grant is not particularly germane, here, but the point is that the testability of String Theory is controversial in the community. But even if the testability of String Theory is problematic, the important distinction over theology is that the threshold and conditions for testability are known and affirmed. The debate obtains on the the practicality of testing for unique and discriminating predictions from the String Theory models.
At 9.1.3, I posed a question. You might want to take a look. But I again ask the question—since I believe it is fundamental to this discussion: ” . . . eigenstate, do you admit the Mind and Free Will as non-material entities? Would you accept this limited provenance for science?” Based on your choice not to distinguish between “artificial” and “natural”, I’m expecting your answer to both questions will be ‘no’.
Correct. "Non-material" is not a problem on its face, if we are using casual definitions of "non-material" -- gravity is not a "stuff" or made of some material you can touch or see. But if we are using "non-material" in a scientific sense, then "entity" becomes problematic, as I understand it, as "entity" implies materiality in the same way "substance" would. Perhaps there is some way that "immaterial substance" can be apprehended as more than a self-contradicting term, but if there is, we are not aware of any such physic. That means that "mind", for example, is "non-material" in a casual, colloquial sense -- we can't touch or see our 'mind', we suppose -- but material in the rigorous sense: a complex set of electro-chemical patterns that occur in the brain.eigenstate
November 14, 2011
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eigenstate:
If the putative dynamic isn’t required to be incorporated into a model, or can’t be incorporated into some mechanistic, any mechanistic model, it can’t be model-tested, and thus cannot possibly contribute to knowledge, even as eliminative-knowledge (falsification).
Per your statement, string theory can't "contribute to knowledge". And there are all kinds of other examples of what is considered to be science that doesn't fit the bill either.
Discrete, entailed and novel predictions are required — you need a “falsified domain” as a potential and identifiable outcome as well as a “non-falsified domain” (not this is not the same as “true”, the epistemology is eliminative), and some objective, empirical way of distinguishing between the two domains when you run your tests on the model, or… ya got nothin’.
String Theory is presented to the scientific community as a quasi Theory of Everything, and yet, per Lee Smolin, it makes NO measurable predictions. At 9.1.3, I posed a question. You might want to take a look. But I again ask the question---since I believe it is fundamental to this discussion: " . . . eigenstate, do you admit the Mind and Free Will as non-material entities? Would you accept this limited provenance for science?" Based on your choice not to distinguish between "artificial" and "natural", I'm expecting your answer to both questions will be 'no'.PaV
November 14, 2011
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@kairosfocus
Now, atheism-as-proposition [the denial of the existence of God], is the premise for the sort of active disbelief in God that underlies the passive form being rhetorically used [absence of belief in God] and is invariably embedded in worldviews that make that denial seem plausible. In our time the relevant worldview is usually “scientific” evolutionary materialism. Then your problem is with "scientific evolutionary materialism". Why are you invoking atheism? By Buddhist friend at work is an atheist, but he's not a materialist, and (lamentably) not a subscriber to evolutionary theory. That's how he "usually" is as an atheist, and so far as I know, that how he "always" is. As you have it, atheism is just a collateral by-product of your real enemy, materialism.
In short, you have severely misread what was said, and in any case should have taken on board synecdoche whereby a wider entity can be referred to by a key part, e.g. “all hands on deck” means “all sailors on deck.”
You have that backwards. "Atheism" IS the wider entity. Materialism, your real target is the part of the wider whole (atheism-compatible worldviews). Not a big deal, but I note you are bungling your attempt to dig out of this. Many sailors here, to apply your analogy, do not have hands. Many atheism-compatible worldviews do not have materialism, or evolutionary theory support. Why not just restate what you meant after thinking about it a bit, and restate it?
Error carried forward. I never ever said that atheism as proposition was a worldview, but if you have projected that misreading, all else follows, down to the gratuitous (though relatively subtle) ad hominem.
Ahh, but you did, except you have now decided it was synechdoche, except for confusing the wider part (atheism) with the key narrower part (materialism), making it a kind of "reverse-synechdoche", if read charitably. Why not just think about, restate things clearly, and facilitate a discussion on the merits?
The above suffices to show that there is a problem but it is not my posting “disingenuously.” It is that you have projected a pseudo-problem on me a priori, the “Gish gallop” — which is yet another form of the Barbara Forrest/NCSE “creationism in a cheap tuxedo” smear — and so misread what I have had to say.
Please note the term I actually used -- "Gish Gallop, Kairosfocus Remix™ (please don't forget the trademark symbol). I don't suppose Gish believe he is spewing lies faster than a sparrow flies, but I do identify a great many of them as falsehoods, and demonstrable ones if he would bother to slow down enough to actually examine and be examined in what he is saying. So, to for you. You aren't Gish, and aren't doing precisely the same thing, which is why I called your gallop the "Kairosfocus Remix™". But it certainly is a gallop, and while I don't doubt you believe what you are saying is true (oy!), as a practical matter, it's just an obnoxious way to behave in a posting environment. It's antagonistic IN ITS FORM. (Maybe it helps if you just consider the posts of BA77 -- that's in the same vein as what you contribute here). I assume you believe what you spew in such volume and rambling form is true, but I don't see your machine gun fire being any more true than what Gish gets galloping on. But that really isn't the point of the criticism. The point is that it's an obnoxious FORM, and one that does poison the well, in the same way as Gish does. I think just here in this thread you took pains to point out how I (or someone else?) did not respond to one particular point in your galloping items, and identified that as some apparent problem for your opponents. That's just nuts. If you are going to post as you do, fine, but you are really out there if you follow up with a post noting that your feeble enemies conspicuously avoided a detailed response to the 7 links you provided in item 33 of section 5 of your gallop.
You sir have called me a liar by direct implication — and that without good reason, something I take very, very, very seriously indeed. (I won’t even bother to address whether Dr Gish properly merits this dismissal, let’s just say I doubt very much that he is a liar. He may be in error on points, but I have no reason to believe he is a liar.)
No, that's not the case. I believe you believe what you are posting is true, so that would not be lying on your part. I believe the same thing about Gish. You've missed the thrust of the criticism. The idea you should consider is that you have a form of posting that is intrinsically hostile to forum discussion, in the same way the Gish Gallop is hostile to constructive or thoughtful debate. It's not something to be proud of, so I think you should not find much comfort in pointing you away from the lying charge. It's just exceedingly bad form when you are in a community that is trying (to some degree at least) to tolerate (if not foment) thoughtful discussion on highly controversial and profound issues. It's just a lack of social graces, and everyone's aware of it. You're famous for it, I'm learning, outside of this forum, where apparently even your friends are too polite or scared to point this out for your own benefit. You've clearly read a lot and spend a lot of time on these things, so I think you would do just fine if you would stop with all the gallop and risk really engaging in a thoughtful way on this blog (or elsewhere). If you are willing to try that, I'm certainly willing to try and show how this works on my end, as a "critic" or "opponent".
This is subtly uncivil, and should be taken back, especially since right from the outset of your attempted rebuttal I have show where there is an error of reasoning, and it is not mine. Worse, we do see that by labelling me as disingenuous in the original post, you have indeed meant that I am a willful deceiver.
I think my comments above addressed this, but for the record again, the "disingenous" charge does not obtain from any suspicion of you lying, but rather of just a fairly extreme disregard for engaging those you speak to, and of exploiting bandwidth and available space to try and dominate a discussion by galloping. Think of it as a network social faux pas you have a adopted as a mode (along with BA77), which benefits you (you suppose) at the expense of everyone else and the forum in general.
This is false accusation, especially in context where it is plain that it is you who are not handling easily accessible evidence responsibly. And, a sober examination of the original post will immediately reveal that it is not a “random walk” and that as a worldviews level question it must inevitably address a wide context of issues, which it in fact condenses relative to what a full-orbed phil essay would have to take on. But in so doing, this is what was done structurally:
Welk, "random walk" was hyperbole, I admit. But exaggeration of a very real problem. Call it what you want, "structure toward a fully orbed desiderata" seems as fine a euphemism as I can think of, but relabeling won't help. In the context you are operating in, that kind of posting by it's sheer FORM is a kind of social antagonism. That is, even if it's ALL CORRECT, you are still poisoning the well because it's an intractable gallop, even if "true". I'm disappointed no one has ever taken this up privately with you, that you will listen to better than I, because it's really a shame to see all that effort go to waste and be a burden on the environments you post in. I think you are badly mistaken on a number of fronts, but nothing is helped by blowing all the bandwidth time and attention the way you do. Much better those ideas get a fair hearing, and a chance to succeed or fail on their own merits in a thoughtful discussion.
Since it was actually shown in the OP that so-called methodological naturalism reduces to metaphysical naturalism by implication [notice, onlookers, how this was never directly addressed, just brushed aside by red herrings led away to strawmen soaked in ad hominems and set alight by subtle insinuations], this is simply wrong.
This is a good example of what I meant above. Here you are playing to the crowd (hint: whenever you are tempted to use the word "Onlookers", you are fighting a negative impulse) by suggesting that some item or other in your galloping stream was avoided, and avoided due to some weakness or error on the part of your opponent's ideas. That's being disingenuous right there. I'm a "new kid on the block", and type fast, etc. and so am maybe as much of an "eager n00b" as you are likely to find in an opponent. But your gallop just thwarts any efforts to engage in a robust way. That's bad enough, but then you take the frustrations and time limitations of the people your are speaking to as an opportunity to double down on your disingenousness -- you high-five yourself for having opponents not stupid enough or blessed with unlimited free time to respond to every step in your gallop. If the gallop is picking your nose at a party, this kind of response is breaking wind and supposing the partygoers will think that's fun. Methodological naturalism does NOT reduce to philosophical naturalism or materialism, by implication or any other vehicle. Philosophical materialism is a WIDENING of methodological naturalism, naturalism applied much more broadly than to just scientific questions. I know that presents some challenges for you, but facts are stubborn things -- saying it reduces doesn't make it so. Your claim is demonstrably false -- just ask any of the theists who are scientists who use methodological naturalism in their practice of science day in and day out, and maintain a thoroughgoing theism, or other set of superstitions, as part of their governing philosophy. Methodological naturalism is easily observed to widen out into many different forms of theism and other non-materialist philosophies in the lives of those who utilize methodological naturalism as a tool for building natural knowledge.
What is correct is that ever since Plato and beyond, it is known that some things begin to exist and/or may cease form existing. Thus,t hey are subjects of cause and causal explanation. Such causes reliably trace to chance and or mechanical necessity driven by physical forces and derivations of that, or choice.
That is NOT known. Science provides a strong basis for doubting that we have ANY examples of anything "beginning to exist". Matter and energy move around and takes on different configurations, but it is neither created nor destroyed, so far as we can tell (First Law of Thermodynamics). We can certainly identify causal patterns with our observations and build models that try to approximate and predict the dynamics of matter and energy, but we have ZERO experience with matter or energy being created or destroyed, or anything "beginning to exist". A zygote that becomes a baby that becomes an adult human does not "begin to exist" in an existential sense, but rather is a shorthand we apply for the collecting and aggregation of already existing matter and energy. Cause is a question we build models to address, but they do not incorporate anything coming to exist, or ceasing to exist, as a matter of physics. A body decaying and decomposing we may say "ceases to exist" as a configuration of matter and energy we call "body", and we can identify processes that predictable effect further decomposition until the body is no longer recognizable as a body, but nothing ceases to exist in any fundamental sense. This Plato did not know (others may have suspected, depending on your reading of some of the ancient Greek thinkers), and is a striking defeater for the intuitive premise that "everything that begins to exist has a cause...". Perhaps it does, but if so, we can't say by experience from this world. This world affords us precisely NO experience of such a phenomenon. Ahh, but I'm following you down rabbit holes now. Enough.
eigenstate
November 14, 2011
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@William J Murray
Since we cannot observe “gravity” in and of itself, but rather use the term to refer to a distinct pattern of effects that can be observed and measured (regardless of what “gravity” actually is, if anything, we know what effects it produces), I assume that you do not require the proposed commodity in iteself to be observable, but that only the proposed effects be subject to observation and predictive models. Is that a fair assessment?
Well, "itself to be observable" is a really awful phrase to invoke. As my old physics prof used to say to poke us undergrads in the mind's eye, do I see the apple, or the light bouncing off the apple toward my eye? It's wordplay of course, but it's not so trivial as it sounds, which was his point in starting out that way. We don't observe things "themselves", and the language that captures the process in a precise and physics-compatible way is cumbersome; we use the language shorthand because being precise is really awkward and impractical in situations like this. That said, yes, the "naturality" of any putative effect or dynamic is judge by its observability where "observability" is established by measurement as part of a mechanical model. If you can't incorporate it into a mechanistic model, you have a problem. Gravity, as "invisible" as it is, is perfectly measurable as part of such a model. And it's worth pointing out here, just for kariosfocus' benefit, this is the key point where a "divine foot in the door" completely annihilates the epistemic model. If the putative dynamic isn't required to be incorporated into a model, or can't be incorporated into some mechanistic, any mechanistic model, it can't be model-tested, and thus cannot possibly contribute to knowledge, even as eliminative-knowledge (falsification).
(Similarly, we cannot observe whatever entropy is – what is causing entropic effects, if anything is “causing” them – but use the term to refer to a class of effects. Time, also – we don’t know what it “is”, but its effects are observable.)
Well, entropy doesn't cause anything. Entropy is just an abstraction (a brain-state in human heads) that is reifies the concept of [what we call entropy]. I understand your point, however -- "what is causing entropic effects" is fine for our purposes. In any case, if you can build natural models with it that make testable predictions and which account for empirical observations, etc., you're good. Model building, and the testability and liability of the model to empirical feedback is the key. This is what drives knowledge as the output, through validation or falsification.
So, if we proposed that a class of effects – identifiable by pattern, predictable in some sense – was the product of an unobservable “force” (like entropy or gravity), would the fact that the effects of the posited force were observable and testable deliver our theory from being about the “supernatural”?
Is the model mechanistic? If so, yes. "Predictable in some sense" isn't nearly adequate. Discrete, entailed and novel predictions are required -- you need a "falsified domain" as a potential and identifiable outcome as well as a "non-falsified domain" (not this is not the same as "true", the epistemology is eliminative), and some objective, empirical way of distinguishing between the two domains when you run your tests on the model, or... ya got nothin'.
Also, a follow-up question: is what is artificial subsumed by the term “natural” in “methodological naturalism”? IOW, can science properly investigate the designed product, habits, and patterns of intelligent agencies like humans?
Sure. "Artificial" as in "artificial selection" is an artificial [sic] distinction in this context. Humans designing circuits and software, or new breeds of dog are just as natural as grass on the ground, and so are the circuits. Aliens from Planet Z are no less natural than we are or the grass is. All of this is subsumed in a straightforward way under the aegis of methodological naturalism. "Artificial" as you are using it here (I believe) is just a casual distinction that's useful for separating out humans and their effects and designs from the rest of the world. "Artificial selection" is totally natural in the strict sense of the scientific epistemology we are looking at, it just messes with the patterns of evolution and selection we see when humans aren't in the picture. That's useful for distinguishing human breeding of plants from non-human plant evolution, for example, but it's not a meaningful distinction for our purposes here.eigenstate
November 14, 2011
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@William J Murray
That doesn’t answer my question. It doesn’t really even address my question – which may be my fault for not expressing the question better or more formally. I’m inquiring as to what worldview premise (of yours) warrants (grounds, supports) the idea that humans are even remotely, reliably capable of deliberately discerning true statements about phenomena?
First, no warrant is neeeded for the premise. It's a provisional premise adopted to bootstrap research project. You are confusing a rational syllogism, I think, with a hypothesis adopted as the input for a test or an investigative enterprise that will bear it out. Unless one believes a human can supply an infinite regress of warrants (and I'd love to hear you explain the practicalities of that, if so!), you have to start somewhere. Science does not depend on the inscrutable soundness (or no) of its metaphsyical premise. It needs, and can't even use any warrant. Empirical testing makes any warrant redundant, irrelevant. The real world is the judge, and thus any lack of warrant doesn't matter, and any initial warrant doesn't matter, either. This is the innovation that embarrasses "rational intuition" and other forms of theology and philosophy that are not predicated on empirical testing and corrective feedback loops from our real-world experience. That's sufficient as an answer, but as it happens, even that's a moot point. Humans are hardwired to operate this way, cognitively, no matter what, from birth. Humans can certainly permit themselves to abandon the corrective feedback loops reality provides for model making, but they do so at their own risk, and generally have to contain such indulgences for things like theology, where being totally whack in their ideas won't get them killed, but just might make them a bit odd in their heuristics (although given the gratification many of those indulgences and conceits afford for many, maybe it's not so odd). A newborn baby instinctively, and unavoidably beings to build models, based on this metaphysical premise, before they are even vaguely aware of concepts like "metaphysical" or "premise". From birth, and likely well before, the neonate accepts that its senses are veridical and providing feedback that supports model-building. A three month old's model is quite rudimentary to an adult's: it doesn't yet have the model refined enough to understand the persistence of physical objects, so when an adult shows the young one a tennis ball and then hides it behind her back, the babe may just think the ball has ceased to exist. A few months later, the child will have refined the model to incorporate this concept of persistence, and so may look expectantly at the adult for the return of the ball behind her back into view. So, really, asking for warrant for this premise in practical terms just elicits a good laugh. What do you suppose is the child's WARRANT for that practice??? It cannot be otherwise, as anyone who has, or knows children can attest. We are hard-wired for this, and cannot do otherwise. A flip answer to your question would have been simply "human biology is our warrant", and that would have force, but biological imperatives aside, our warrant is just a provisional hypothesis taken on for the purposes of investigation, not to stand on the premise, but rather to investigate the premise for soundness itself. This is science upending the "top down" model of philosophy that can't bootstrap itself, and offering a bootstrapping method by provisional acceptance of a hypothesis as the means to investigate the premise itself. Since science and empiricism have an epistemic tool that rationalism alone doesn't have -- corrective feedback loops from the real world -- it can bootstrap the epistemic process thus, and avoid the skyhooks and regress problems that rationalism alone suffers from.
Such an idea might begin as an intuition as, say, my idea that humans (some, most or all) can discern self-evidently true moral statements, but I must provide the worldview premise that would indicate, support, or imply that such is even possible.
No, there is not only no requirement for that, it's not possible as an end point. That is just a trigger for regress. You know the drill. If I ask you for your "warrant for possibility", I will listen for your answer, and then politely nod, and then ask you for your warrant for that supporting answer. Then, if you should deign to provide support for that answer, I will wash, rinse, repeat, until you realize the trap you have fallen into. Without a provisional hypothesis, and some way to cycle back to evaluate it, something that breaks the "vicious cycle of warrant", you end up getting all theological, hopelessly lost in, uh, "bald assumptions", but ones that have not the hope of being tested, validated, falsified or even investigated by anything more than idle musings in one's mind.
IOW, I can certainly just baldly assume (based on intuition) that humans can deliberately discern true statements, but if my worldview holds as true premises that directly and necessarily contradict that idea (which I would argue, and KF argues, atheistic/materialist worldviews do), then in order to maintain a rationally consistent belief system, you’d have to change either your assumption that humans can reliably & deliberately discern true statements about phenomena, or you’d have to change something about your fundamental worldview.
Well, corrigibility for one's assumptions is the piece you were missing above, in asking for a priori warrant. And that's the solution here. Take on what hypotheses you will at the outset, but unless you have some way to adjust, correct and revise (and as above, happily, humans have evolved and adopted to do this very well as a matter of biology) your assumptions as the means of training your mental model of the world, ya got nothin'. The real world doesn't care a whit for your worldview, or mine. It is what it is, and adopting a a worldview that's not consonant with the realworld just makes the world say... well the world doesn't say anything, it's just physics. If that's understood, you can hotrod the model all you want -- if you suppose you will leave forever after your death as part of your model, it's not likely to be a lethal indulgence, as opposed to supposing you are strong enough and fast enough to defeat any predator or enemy in a struggle, for example -- and so long as the model performs minimally, you can function.eigenstate
November 14, 2011
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Wm J Murray: Quoting "eigenstate":
It’s not philosophical materialism, it’s methodological materialism. Theists and atheists on a philosophical level engage in methodological naturalism as the predicate for the practice of science, every day. Methodological naturalism is a requirement for scientific knowledge to make any headway at all, epistemically. So the scientist who is a Christian engages methodological naturalism just as fully as the metaphysical materialist, and in so doing, scientific epistemology coheres, and natural knowledge can be developed.
First, sorry for barging in on the conversation; but, if I don't comment now, when will I? Next, I think the highlighted portions above point out the relevant issue at hand. From the OP, here are what I consider the critical moves in Lewontin's argument, moves that need clarification before being accepted as valid statements. Here they are:
. . . the problem is to get them to reject irrational and supernatural explanations of the world, the demons that exist only in their imaginations, and to accept a social and intellectual apparatus, Science, as the only begetter of truth. . .
and,
. . . that the practices of science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality . . .
Thus, in the first place, is this statement true: "Science as the only begetter of truth. . ." Here is how I think the phrase should read: "Science as the only begetter of scientific truth." This delimits the range of phenomena over which "science" has provenance. The required delimiting seems to be found in the second quote: "the practices of science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality . . .", as well as in what you, eigenstate, are quoted above as saying: "Methodological naturalism is a requirement for scientific knowledge." The point of contention between theists and materialists seems to be over the degree to which scientific knowledge is limited. To the materialist, there is ONLY scientific knowledge. Only science can lead to the truth, just as Lewontin states. To the theist, the world is infused with more than mere material forces. Here, immediately, we encounter the maelstrom over the existence, or non-existence, of the "mind", and of "free will". If this conversation is to prove fruitful---as part of a journey of discovery and enlightenment---then I think these basic issues need to be resolved. Therefore, eigenstate, do you admit the Mind and Free Will as non-material entities? Would you accept this limited provenance for science?PaV
November 14, 2011
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Barb: Slightly off topic, but let's highlight a few gaps in the reasoning relevant to the Lewontinian a priori evolutionary materialism that is at the heart of the problem. The link presents an evolutionary psychology just so story; this one based on an inferred ancestral relationship between humans and chimps (have they explained the FSCI required to get to language? we are physically equipped for this, chimps are not and the quantum of info to do that is obviously well beyond 1,000 bits). Notice, too, the raft of assumptions that are simply implied or asserted as though they are not even open to question, and of course our very favourite catch-phrase "shed light" multiplied by the injected word altruism without a definition that addresses the IS-OUGHT gap:
Chimpanzees have now shown they can help strangers at personal cost without apparent expectation of personal gain . . . . These new findings could shed light on the evolution of such altruism, researchers said. Scientists [--> duly decked out in the holy lab coat] think altruism evolved to help either kin or those willing and able of returning the favor—to help either one's genetic heritage or oneself. [--> An is not a grounding of ought, and what happens when your genetic survival and propagation is better served by "selfish" behaviour?] Humans, on the other hand, occasionally help strangers without apparent benefit for themselves, sometimes at great cost.
Ask yourself, what actual observed facts are in play, and what actual empirically tested predictions are in play from the theories, also whether the theories make further testable predictions or are ad hoc after the fact and question-begging. Then, ask yourself whether they have sought to provide a just so story for presumed survival enhancing behaviour, or whether they have provided an IS in the foundation of the worldview that can properly ground OUGHT. The answer to this one is obvious, this is all a red herring. We see nowhere an IS that grounds OUGHT. So, it is genetic programming, plus might and manipulation make "right." And all within the a priori evolutionary materialistic circle. Oops, no, no, no, it's just that science may only explain naturalistically! And that lands you right back in a priori evolutionary materialism, and in question-begging survival of the fittest amorality. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
November 14, 2011
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KF wrote, "They are told by them that the highest right is might [[ Evolutionary materialism leads to the promotion of amorality]]". If evolutionary materialism is built on a shaky foundation of moral relativism, then it would necessarily lead to amorality, for there is no objective 'good' or 'bad' standard with which to compare behaviors. But, KF, how would you explain or contrast the belief that altruism evolved in humans, given what you've posted above? What's your take on that? For further reference: http://www.livescience.com/4515-selfless-chimps-shed-light-evolution-altruism.htmlBarb
November 14, 2011
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F.N: Just taking basic physics, Hooke's Law on elasticity is often studied using contrived objects known as springs. KFkairosfocus
November 14, 2011
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Eigenstate: Continuing with the examination of your response: I asked:
(2) What is the term “natural” (methodological naturalism) offered in relationship to, and what is the substantive meaning of the alternative that requires this qualifying term as part of the description of scientific inquiry?
You responded:
“Natural” opposes “supernatural”, where “natural” points at phonomena which are observable (at least in principle).
Since we cannot observe "gravity" in and of itself, but rather use the term to refer to a distinct pattern of effects that can be observed and measured (regardless of what "gravity" actually is, if anything, we know what effects it produces), I assume that you do not require the proposed commodity in iteself to be observable, but that only the proposed effects be subject to observation and predictive models. Is that a fair assessment? (Similarly, we cannot observe whatever entropy is - what is causing entropic effects, if anything is "causing" them - but use the term to refer to a class of effects. Time, also - we don't know what it "is", but its effects are observable.) So, if we proposed that a class of effects - identifiable by pattern, predictable in some sense - was the product of an unobservable "force" (like entropy or gravity), would the fact that the effects of the posited force were observable and testable deliver our theory from being about the "supernatural"? Also, a follow-up question: is what is artificial subsumed by the term "natural" in "methodological naturalism"? IOW, can science properly investigate the designed product, habits, and patterns of intelligent agencies like humans?William J Murray
November 14, 2011
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DM: Kindly read the OP, and let us know the worldview significance of say the NSTA remarks. KFkairosfocus
November 14, 2011
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Onlookers: on Lewontin, kindly cf here, i.e. do believe what you see for yourself. I think the real problem with his infamous article for those who so stridently object to my reading as annotated, is that it so plainly lets the materialism cat out of the bag labelled "science." KFkairosfocus
November 14, 2011
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WJM: An excellent question, and one well worth pondering:
I’m inquiring as to what worldview premise (of yours) warrants (grounds, supports) the idea that humans are even remotely, reliably capable of deliberately discerning true statements about phenomena?
This is an important challenge for ANY worldview, the core question of epistemology. And, it is by no means easy to answer. (Onlookers may want to try a stab here as a starter.) But then, if questions like that were not hard, they would -- almost by definition! -- not be philosophical questions. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
November 14, 2011
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F/N:I have just now slightly adjusted points 8 and 9 in the original post above, in the hope that it will make it clear that I am speaking about the need for any worldview to warrant itself, so no responsible person should take up a view on a "default" basis. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
November 14, 2011
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Joseph: Please moderate tone. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
November 14, 2011
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Eigenstate, I hope you'll forgive me breaking the debate up into smaller sections, but there's so much here to go over. I asked:
Why should we expect humans to be able to deliberately discern true (at least provisionally) statements by observing phenomena?
You answered:
It’s an intuiton, the idea that reality is reflected to some intelligible degree by observable phenomena. That makes it a research program, one that doesn’t to justify itself metaphyscally, but rather just urges getting on with the research project and evaluating the results. If the intuition is correct, then we should be able to build performative models to some degree. If the intuition is incorrect, we shan’t expect performative models to emerge or intelligible processes to be identified via empirical heuristics.
That doesn't answer my question. It doesn't really even address my question - which may be my fault for not expressing the question better or more formally. I'm inquiring as to what worldview premise (of yours) warrants (grounds, supports) the idea that humans are even remotely, reliably capable of deliberately discerning true statements about phenomena? Such an idea might begin as an intuition as, say, my idea that humans (some, most or all) can discern self-evidently true moral statements, but I must provide the worldview premise that would indicate, support, or imply that such is even possible. IOW, I can certainly just baldly assume (based on intuition) that humans can deliberately discern true statements, but if my worldview holds as true premises that directly and necessarily contradict that idea (which I would argue, and KF argues, atheistic/materialist worldviews do), then in order to maintain a rationally consistent belief system, you'd have to change either your assumption that humans can reliably & deliberately discern true statements about phenomena, or you'd have to change something about your fundamental worldview.William J Murray
November 14, 2011
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Have you heard of the discovery of DNA? Are you familiar with the phrase "a frozen accident"?Upright BiPed
November 14, 2011
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Joseph
So either you are lying and you don’t follow the scientific literature fairly closely or your position doesn’t have anything. Also I see you are still an equivocating fool as ID is not anti-evolution and your “evolutionary mechansisms” could very well be design mechanisms
News, do these comments by Joseph represent what you consider to be acceptable, polite and civil discussion at UD? UD: No, they are not. Joseph, tone it down or you will wind up in the mod box. KF: GB, did you take a moment to see 17.2 above? (NB: I note your comment is timestamped before I noticed and corrected.) Now, it looks like UD's Mod has given a warning also, which should tell you a bit of the why of your own current status, after you defied repeated counsels and warnings.GinoB
November 14, 2011
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eigenstate: "The eschewing of the supernatural is a methodologicalnecessity, not a philosophical a priori. If you abandon that restriction, even just a little bit as a methodological matter, practical scientific epistemology gets annihilated, and science gets busted down to being theology." I have to disagree with you here. Methodological naturalism merely states that you can only investigate what you can observe. It doesn't rule out unobservable dieties. If you can find something observable to investigate, you can even investigate them. An example would be the various prayer studies that attempt to test the effectiveness of prayer. Material patients are divided into groups, material prayer teams emit material prayers and the results are measured on the material patients. It's all material, all methodological naturalism and it's investigating the supernatural. The dismal results show why it's best to follow Lewontin and just reject the supernatural and get on with investigating the world. I will now pause to allow Bornagain77 to post a hundred or so examples of prayer studies whose results weren't very good, but whose investigators cherry picked the results for any isolated factor that randomly happened to improve a little and touted it as the favorable results of the study, sometimes ignoring the fact that the patient actually died. 'The patient's bunion shrank by 32.5% and was still improving when his heart failed! We also permanently cured the patient's halitosis.'dmullenix
November 14, 2011
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GinoB:
I follow the scientific literature fairly closely and I don’t recall any discoveries in the biological sciences that provide positive evidence for ID to the exclusion of evolutionary mechanisms.
Yet you still cannot produce any evidence to support your position. So either you are lying and you don't follow the scientific literature fairly closely or your position doesn't have anything. Also I see you are still an equivocating fool as ID is not anti-evolution and your "evolutionary mechansisms" could very well be design mechanisms.Joseph
November 14, 2011
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Woodford: Pardon, but I suspect the problem is deeper than style [which can always be improved], there is a worldview challenge. To see so, look at how in 3.1 above, ESt was unable to see the step by step logic I just explained in 15, in the original post. He and others need to ask why is it that something that follows a step by step logical process [as I pointed out in 15] seemed to them to be a random mishmash. The answer is that they were locking out a worldview level analysis that happens to cut across their own view, where they seem to think their own view is the only acceptable, reasonable, intelligent one. Certainly that explains Dawkins' choice of "brights" for his circle, and his dismissal of those who differ as "ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked." (Which BTW, is raised in the OP. Should you not take pause to think about why it is you are so sharply dismissing those who happen to disagree with you, regardless of qualifications and achievements? Is that not a sign that something is very wrong with how you are thinking, Mr Dawkins et al? has it not registered that there is a reason why the knowledgeable have so uniformly panned an exercise in traipsing beyond competence like The God Delusion? Did you not learn from your exchanges with Mr Lennox, e.g. here?) Until one has learned to think in terms of worldviews, one will be challenged to see the issue of tracing beliefs, ideas, assumptions and assertions, underlying first plausibles, then articulating arguments and narratives and implications for life and culture, including science. This by the way is one of the key lessons in Plato's parable of the cave. (Please watch the video presentation of the parable from his The Republic.) My first steps presentation is here [please start with this], my application to tracing to roots of worldviews is here on, my summary of the toolkit is here on, and my articulation into developing a worldview is here. Then, here on, I develop this in the context of building a theistic worldview. {I will upload them use the editor to fill in as this probably goes beyond the limits, pardon.) One of the big problems with the debates over design is that they exist in the context of institutionalised evolutionary materialism, a largely unexamined but dominant worldview, which is what is the root of the Lewontinian a priori materialism being addressed in the OP. So, unless the sort of lift the lid and look inside the worldview issues addressed in the OP, the whole debate will go no farther than a matter of power politics and might makes right manipulation and intimidation based on divide, polarise and rule tactics. Which is both unacceptable and exactly what is happening on the ground. So, let us work through the issues. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
November 14, 2011
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BD: Indeed the challenge of explaining mind (including consciousness with reasoning and knowing as experiences and as facts) is one of the key gaps in materialism that points to its fundamental flaws. It leads on to the problem that the evolutionary materialistic account of human origins runs into inescapable self-referential absurdity -- thus it self-refutes [cf Haldane's remark in the OP] -- once it touches on mind. KFkairosfocus
November 14, 2011
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Eigenstate: I will note on points, step by step in reply to your 3.1 above: 1: your post commits yourself to the very thing you deny here. The “it” in “If it is to be serious as a worldview” is “atheism” in your post. Now, atheism-as-proposition [the denial of the existence of God], is the premise for the sort of active disbelief in God that underlies the passive form being rhetorically used [absence of belief in God] and is invariably embedded in worldviews that make that denial seem plausible. In our time the relevant worldview is usually "scientific" evolutionary materialism. That is the context for my remarks (starting with the original post), so let's roll the tape from my comment you are replying to:
I will note on points: a: I have never said that the keystone proposition at the heart of Atheism as such — denial of the reality of God — is a worldview, but that it is an integral part of a worldview, in our day most often “scientific” atheism is part of evolutionary materialism dressed up in a lab coat. Which is what I specifically addressed, as it is the relevant form. b: So, the attempt to suggest otherwise was an improper resort to strawman caricature . . .
In the original post, this is the context of point 9, which is the point you have twisted into pretzels in your rebuttal attempts. Let's start from 8:
8 –> But, the very definition of atheism as “absence of belief in god or gods” that is now so commonly being pushed as the “real” definition, has deeper problems. For, it is usually offered as an argument that the atheist is simply taking a default view: YOU must prove your theism, I hold no position. 9 –> This is fallacious and misleading, indeed, a fatal worldview error. Why is that so? a: It improperly shifts — and indeed ducks — the burden of warrant on comparative difficulties that any serious worldview must shoulder. If it is to be serious as a worldview. b: An easy way to see this, is to notice how the very same atheists usually want to dress up their atheism in a lab coat c: For instance, as Lewontin tried to argue in his 1997 NYRB article, the a priori materialistic scientific elites want the general public to look up to them as the fountain of knowledge and wisdom, and to come to believe that science is “the only begetter of truth.” d: But, this is NOT a scientific claim, it is a claim about the grounds that warrant knowledge, indeed an assertion of monopoly power over knowledge. Such is therefore properly a philosophical knowledge claim, i.e an epistemological claim. e: Lewontin is trivially self-refuting. f: But the claim is also illustrative of how claims at worldview level are inevitably linked to one another. g: And, the denial or rejection of belief in God is plainly not an isolated claim, it sits in the centre of a cluster of evolutionary materialistic beliefs.
That is, by simply reading in context you should have seen that the worldview in question, plainly, is "scientific" evolutionary materialism, which implies/assumes -- it is all circular -- atheism- as- proposition. In short, you have severely misread what was said, and in any case should have taken on board synecdoche whereby a wider entity can be referred to by a key part, e.g. "all hands on deck" means "all sailors on deck." Your triumphant "you busted yourself on this one" deflates, fzzzt. And in losing its air, it shows a key problem with ever so many objectors of atheistical stripe: reading isolated points out of textual and ideas context, to make talking-point style objections, instead of first seeking to understand the worldview framework being addressed. That's why I spent so much effort on this, it is a slice of the cake that has in it all the ingredients of how "scientific" atheism advocates go wrong ever so often. 2: Atheism cannot be a worldview. It’s not a matter of definition. It doesn’t qualify conceptually, because it does not provide any overarching lens through which the extramental world is interpreted. Worldviews can support atheism, and many do, but you are either failing to grasp the basic concepts behind “worldview”, or simply continuing your pattern of incorrigibility, here. Error carried forward. I never ever said that atheism as proposition was a worldview, but if you have projected that misreading, all else follows, down to the gratuitous (though relatively subtle) ad hominem. Please go back up and see that I spoke in the original post and subsequently of atheism as proposition as a keystone proposition of a worldview, not as a worldview in itself. And, that is what it is, a key step in a circle of evolutionary materialistic argument, at the core of a worldview, naturalism in one form or another. Then, look in the mirror and ask yourself about just who is being incorrigible. 3: here is the substance of what I mean by posting disingenuously. You put out a rambling, random walk of a large slew of issues — this is your version of the “Gish Gallop” — and then you find validation when point #15 of the hundred and more problems you introduce is not taken up. If you spam like that, or like BA77 does, you are certain to find lots of “triumph” in the fact anyone with the skills to point out your errors is likely to have enough sense NOT to indulge your spam techniques on an “all points” basis. The above suffices to show that there is a problem but it is not my posting "disingenuously." It is that you have projected a pseudo-problem on me a priori, the "Gish gallop" -- which is yet another form of the Barbara Forrest/NCSE "creationism in a cheap tuxedo" smear -- and so misread what I have had to say. Worse, the false accusation "Gish gallop" is itself a horrible atmosphere poisoning, name-calling ad hominem, as we can see from Rational Wiki:
The Gish Gallop is an informal name for a debating technique that involves drowning the opponent in such a torrent of half-truths, lies, and straw-man arguments that the opponent cannot possibly answer every falsehood that has been raised. Usually this results in many involuntary twitches in frustration as the opponent struggles just to decide where to start. It is named after creationism activist and professional debater Duane Gish.
You sir have called me a liar by direct implication -- and that without good reason, something I take very, very, very seriously indeed. (I won't even bother to address whether Dr Gish properly merits this dismissal, let's just say I doubt very much that he is a liar. He may be in error on points, but I have no reason to believe he is a liar.) This is subtly uncivil, and should be taken back, especially since right from the outset of your attempted rebuttal I have show where there is an error of reasoning, and it is not mine. Worse, we do see that by labelling me as disingenuous in the original post, you have indeed meant that I am a willful deceiver. This is false accusation, especially in context where it is plain that it is you who are not handling easily accessible evidence responsibly. And, a sober examination of the original post will immediately reveal that it is not a "random walk" and that as a worldviews level question it must inevitably address a wide context of issues, which it in fact condenses relative to what a full-orbed phil essay would have to take on. But in so doing, this is what was done structurally:
a: key issue stated at outset, in headline: "“atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist” — a fatal worldview error of modern evolutionary materialist atheism" b: key challenge stated in opening sentence: a priori, Lewontinian materialism as a dominant feature of key institutions in one of the most influential movements in our civilisation, science. c: compounding problem of atheistical conceit and contempt highlighted: we are the brights, you are "ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked." d: keystone cite from Lewontin given, with link to deal with the quote mining dismissive talking point e: keystone rebuttal given, from Johnson, revealing the a priorism and what it does. f: challenge reframed, to create a better thinking atmosphere so that we may look at the design issue -- the theme of this blog -- on a more objective scientific basis g: taken up in steps of thought, starting with the battle of definitions over atheism (And note how Smart's definition in the well respected Stanford enc of phil is being studiously ducked and distracted from onlookers) h: Lewontin's supernaturalism means a chaotic world talking point is corrected, with a root reference to correcting Hume's underlying epistemological error. (It seems a key problem here is that objectors are not familiar with the underlying issues and history of ideas) i: it is shown that a supernatural worldview is consistent with the possibility of and respect for science and by the example of Newton, it is shown to have actually contributed significantly to the rise of modern science. j: the underlying problem behind Hume that his "quality of evidence" and "uniform experience" arguments lead to an undermining of the reliability of the human mind, is outlined. This is also applied to the modern skeptic, who has to deal with the implications of the dismissal of the experience of God through transforming encounter, with millions of cases in point including some key figures in our history, including in science. k: the absence of belief in God concept is revisited, and then taken up on points, starting as noted and as seen at 1 and 2 just above to have been radically misread. l: note the emphasis is that atheism-as-proposition is embedded in a wider worldview as a key step in a circle of thought, circle being in the very bad sense of that. m: The key question-begging step is exposed by a cite from the US' NSTA, where we can see how methodological naturalism, so called reduces to Lewontinian a priori materialism. n: the implication of ideologising science in a materialistic circle of thought, enforced by censorship, is highlighted and deplored. o: specific cases relevant to the significance and scientific validity of the design approach, with links for details, are laid out. p: a particular application is made to the explaining of the origin of mind and the credibility of morality. q: to tie these together, the reference is made to Plato in the Laws Bk X, showing that materialism, indeed evolutionary materialism, was tried and found severely wanting 2,000 years ago.
So, on fair comment it seems the strawman caricaturing, distortion and dismissal have been on the other foot all along, ESt. 4: It’s not philosophical materialism, it’s methodological materialism. Theists and atheists on a philosophical level engage in methodological naturalism as the predicate for the practice of science, every day. Methodological naturalism is a requirement for scientific knowledge to make any headway at all, epistemically. So the scientist who is a Christian engages methodological naturalism just as fully as the metaphysical materialist, and in so doing, scientific epistemology coheres, and natural knowledge can be developed. Since it was actually shown in the OP that so-called methodological naturalism reduces to metaphysical naturalism by implication [notice, onlookers, how this was never directly addressed, just brushed aside by red herrings led away to strawmen soaked in ad hominems and set alight by subtle insinuations], this is simply wrong. What is correct is that ever since Plato and beyond, it is known that some things begin to exist and/or may cease form existing. Thus,t hey are subjects of cause and causal explanation. Such causes reliably trace to chance and or mechanical necessity driven by physical forces and derivations of that, or choice. In investigating natural regularities, we observe reliable outcomes under similar starting points, e.g. a dropped heavy object reliably tends to fall under a force of 9.8 N/kg near earth's surface. This can be reduced to an empirical law and embedded in wider theories of why such forces come to be, basically now the warping of the space-time fabric by a massive body. In other cases, we see a very different outcome: high contingency under apparently similar starting points. A dropped fair die falls then tumbles and settles to a value that fits a chance distribution. But also such a die can be set to a reading by choice, manually or by being manipulated in ways that are not easily apparent -- loading. Similarly, ESt, you and I confronted with a comment box have put in very different clusters of glyphs that express complex, symbol based messages in English. These too call out for causal explanation and for sound investigation of empirical signs that point to causal factors. The design theory approach (as just now linked) is to not get into worldviews censorship but to empirically and analytically investigate the difference between natural [chance and necessity] and artificial causes. Then, once reliable signs of chance and choice have been found, we can trust these to tell us about the causal stories of objects or phenomena we did not see being caused. Was that fire accident or arson? Was the crash accident, or pilot error? is this item a natural stone or an artifact? Is this digital algorithmically functional code in DNA credibly chance + necessity or design? Why? In origins studies, what is going on however, is that there is a priori imposed materialism, and this is blocking the willingness to consider the empirically known, reliable cause of digitally coded, algorithmically functional complex information. And, contrary to your suggestion, that IS a priori imposition of philosophical materialism on the work of science, crippling it from being able to seriously and soberly investigate towards the evidence led pursuit of the truth about our world based on observations, experiments, logical and mathematical analysis, and objective, uncensored discussion. ________________ That's enough to show what is really going on above. ESt, you have some serious rethinking to do, and some fences to mend. Good day, sir. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
November 14, 2011
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