Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

They said it: “atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist” — a fatal worldview error of modern evolutionary materialist atheism

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Prof. Dawkins of the UK, a leading evolutionary materialist and atheist

It is an open secret that a major motivation for the commonly encountered, too often angry  rejection of  the design inference is a prior commitment to Lewontinian evolutionary materialistic atheism; a common thread that unites a Sagan, a Lewontin, many members of Science institutions and Faculties of Universities, and of course many leading anti-design advocates like those associated with the US-based National Center for Science Education [NCSE], as well as leading “science” [–> atheism] blogs and Internet forums and the like.

Such atheists also often imagine that they have cornered the market on scientific rationality, common-sense and intelligence, to the point where professor Dawkins of the UK has proposed a new name for atheists: “brights.”

By contrast, he and many others of like ilk view those who object to such views as “ignorant, stupid, insane or . . . wicked.” (Perhaps, that is why one of the atheistical objectors to UD feels free to publicly and falsely accuse me of being a demented child abuser and serial rapist. He clearly cannot see how unhinged, unreasonable, irrational, uncouth, vulgar and rage-blinded his outrageous behaviour is.)

For telling instance, in Lewontin’s notorious 1997  NYRB article, Billions and Billions of Demons, we may see:

. . . to put a correct view of the universe into people’s heads we must first get an incorrect view out . . .   the problem is to get them to reject irrational and supernatural explanations of the world, the demons that exist only in their imaginations, and to accept a social and intellectual apparatus, Science, as the only begetter of truth [[NB: this is a knowledge claim about knowledge and its possible sources, i.e. it is a claim in philosophy not science; it is thus self-refuting]. . . . To Sagan, as to all but a few other scientists, it is self-evident [[actually, science and its knowledge claims are plainly not immediately and necessarily true on pain of absurdity, to one who understands them; this is another logical error, begging the question , confused for real self-evidence; whereby a claim shows itself not just true but true on pain of patent absurdity if one tries to deny it . . ] that the practices of science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality . . . .

It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes [[another major begging of the question . . . ] to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute [[i.e. here we see the fallacious, indoctrinated, ideological, closed mind . . . ], for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. [And, if you wish to try the now routine turnabout false accusation of quote mining, kindly cf. here at UD as well as the above linked.]

The ideologically motivated atheistical, evolutionary materialist a priori is plain.

No wonder Philip Johnson rebutted Lewontin thusly, in his November 1997 reply:

For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter. We might more accurately term them “materialists employing science.” And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence. That theory will necessarily be at least roughly like neo-Darwinism, in that it will have to involve some combination of random changes and law-like processes capable of producing complicated organisms that (in Dawkins’ words) “give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose.”  . . . .   The debate about creation and evolution is not deadlocked . . . Biblical literalism is not the issue. The issue is whether materialism and rationality are the same thing. Darwinism is based on an a priori commitment to materialism, not on a philosophically neutral assessment of the evidence. Separate the philosophy from the science, and the proud tower collapses. [[Emphasis added.] [[The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism, First Things, 77 (Nov. 1997), pp. 22 – 25.]

Consequently,  if we are to put the design inference issue on a level playing field so it can be objectively assessed as a valid scientific inference, we have to first address the fatal flaws of reasoning in the underlying thought that clothes materialistic atheism in the holy lab coat. (And of course,  given its sacrificial, protective purpose, it should be no surprise that I have never seen or owned an expensive lab coat.)

So, “scientific” atheism must now go under the microscope:

1 –> The first problem is to accurately define. For that, it is instructive to first cite the well known online Stanford Enc of Phil, in its article on Atheism and Agnosticism by J J C Smart of Monash University:

‘Atheism’ means the negation of theism, the denial of the existence of God. I shall here assume that the God in question is that of a sophisticated monotheism. The tribal gods of the early inhabitants of Palestine are of little or no philosophical interest. They were essentially finite beings, and the god of one tribe or collection of tribes was regarded as good in that it enabled victory in war against tribes with less powerful gods. Similarly the Greek and Roman gods were more like mythical heroes and heroines than like the omnipotent, omniscient and good God postulated in mediaeval and modern philosophy. As the Romans used the word, ‘atheist’ could be used to refer to theists of another religion, notably the Christians, and so merely to signify disbelief in their own mythical heroes. [First published Tue Mar 9, 2004; substantive revision Mon Aug 8, 2011. Acc: Nov 12, 2011.]

2 –> This is of course exactly what is traditionally understood, and it is what the etymology of the underlying Greek, “a + theos,” would suggest: the denial of the reality of God.  But, if one turns to the reliably evolutionary materialist Wikipedia, we will see that in its article on Atheism, there is now a commonly encountered evidently rhetorically loaded redefinition, as appears in the title for this post:

Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist. Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Atheism is contrasted with theism, which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists . . . . Atheists tend to be skeptical of supernatural claims, citing a lack of empirical evidence.

3 –> The last statement, of course, strongly reflects the Lewontinian a priori assertion of materialism, and the underlying notion that to have a supernatural as a possibility would make our cosmos into a chaos. Indeed as Lewontin went on to say: “To appeal to an omnipotent deity is to allow that at any moment the regularities of nature may be ruptured, that miracles may happen.”

4 –> Back of this, lies Hume’s basic hyper-skeptical error, in effect that there has been a uniform experience that firmly establishes the laws of nature and so we may dismiss any claimed supernatural exceptions as beyond reasonable belief. This boils down to begging the question in various ways, as first of all, we precisely do not and cannot have a global observational basis for the laws of science, they are inductive — thus fallible — generalisations. [Cf. Charles Babbage and Alfred Russel Wallace. (Yes, THAT Wallace, the co-founder of modern evolutionary theory and advocate of intelligent evolution.) Also cf a typical contemporary essay here.]

5 –> Similarly, for a miracle to stand out as being beyond the general course of the world, there must be just such a general course, i.e.  a world in which miracles are possible is one in which there will be general regularities amenable to scientific investigation. Informed theists will then tell us that, that the Author of that general course may, for His own good reasons, occasionally intervene at a higher level, in no wise detracts from the reliability of that general course. That is, Lewontin et al have erected and knocked over a ridicule-loaded strawman caricature of theism. (Newton knew better, 300 years ago in his General Scholium to Principia.)

6 –> Moreover, give that there are in fact millions who across centuries, testify to living encounter with God, and to being transformed thereby — including a generous slice of the leading lights of our civilisation across time [just try the likes of a Pascal, a Maxwell, a Kelvin or an Aquinas, for a quick list], to dismissively reject the possibility of miracles or the credibility of witnesses thereto inadvertently puts the human mind itself under suspicion.

7 –> For if so many millions are deluded, then the mind becomes highly questionable as an instrument of inquiry. That is, the atheist who imagines that those who oppose him are delusional, in the teeth of the numbers and quality of the people in question, saws off the cognitive branch on which he too must sit.

8 –> But, the very definition of atheism as “absence of belief in god or gods” that is now so commonly being pushed as the “real” definition, has deeper problems. For, it is usually offered as an argument that the atheist is simply taking a default view: YOU must prove your theism, I hold no position. (Cf. here too, just for fun.)

9 –> This is fallacious and misleading, indeed, a fatal worldview error. Why is that so?

a: It improperly shifts — and indeed ducks — the burden of warrant on comparative difficulties that any serious worldview must shoulder. If it is to be serious as a worldview.  (And, let me add {Nov14}: we all have worldviews— clusters of core beliefs, views and attitudes that define how we see the world; the question is whether we have thought them through to their idea-roots, connexions, degree of warrant, and forward to conclusions and consequences for us and our societies.)

b: An easy way to see all of this, is to notice how the very same atheists usually want to dress up their atheism in a lab coat.

c: For instance, as Lewontin tried to argue in his 1997 NYRB article, the a priori materialistic scientific elites want the general public to look up to them as the fountain of knowledge and wisdom, and to come to believe that science is “the only begetter of truth.”

d: But, this is NOT a scientific claim, it is a claim about the grounds that warrant knowledge, indeed an assertion of monopoly power over knowledge. Such is therefore properly a philosophical knowledge claim, i.e an epistemological claim.

e: Lewontin is trivially self-refuting.

f: But the claim is also illustrative of how claims at worldview level are inevitably linked to one another.

g: And, the denial or rejection of belief in God is plainly not an isolated claim, it sits in the centre of a cluster of evolutionary materialistic beliefs.

h: Indeed, Lewontin himself goes on to assert that the significant elites believe that “science” is the surest means to put us in touch with “physical reality” [= all of reality, for the materialist],  and that he and his ilk are committed to a priori, absolute materialism.

i: That is the context in which we see that science itself is being radically ideologised by question-begging redefinition. The declarations of the US National Science Teachers Association are particularly revealing on this, once we recognise that for “naturalistic” we can freely read “materialistic”:

The principal product of science is knowledge in the form of naturalistic concepts and the laws and theories related to those concepts . . . . Although no single universal step-by-step scientific method captures the complexity of doing science, a number of shared values and perspectives characterize a scientific approach to understanding nature. Among these are a demand for naturalistic explanations supported by empirical evidence that are, at least in principle, testable against the natural world. Other shared elements include observations, rational argument, inference, skepticism, peer review and replicability of work . . . .

Science, by definition, is limited to naturalistic methods and explanations and, as such, is precluded from using supernatural elements in the production of scientific knowledge. [[NSTA, Board of Directors, July 2000. Emphases added.]

j: This ideologises science and science education, tearing out of the heart of science any serious concern to seek the empirically warranted truth about our world, and to recognise the inescapable limitations of empirically based inductive methods in that pursuit which mean that science must be open-ended and provisional in its fact claims and explanations.

k: In short, the intellectual duty of care to critically assess the scientific materialism at the heart of the relevant form of atheism we face,  cannot be ducked so easily as by using the rhetorical tactic of putting up a question-begging redefinition of atheism.

l: This means that scientific atheists must warrant their evolutionary materialism,  they must warrant their redefinition of science based on imposition of so-called methodological naturalism, and they must warrant their commonly held view that science monopolises genuine, objective knowledge.

10 –> Evolutionary materialistic atheism, therefore, has a too often ducked challenge to warrant its worldview level claims, on (a) factual adequacy,  (b) logical coherence, and (c) explanatory balance and power [being elegantly simple, but not simplistic and certainly not ad hoc].

11 –> That means it needs to take seriously the implications of the empirically reliable principle that functionally specific complex organisation and associated information [especially digitally coded, symbolic information] — once we can directly observe the causal process — are inductively strong signs of design.

12 –> Similarly, it has to seriously address the issue of the best explanations for the credibly fine tuned cosmos we inhabit, which on evidence sits at a precise operating point that facilitates Carbon chemistry, aqueous medium cell based life that uses digital information to guide its self-replication and to synthesise the key nanomachines of metabolic life processes.

13 –> Likewise, it has to address the signs of design that are evident in the living cell, starting with the use of complex, functionally specific digital codes and algorithms to guide critical biochemical processes of life such as protein synthesis.

14 –> The need to account for the increments in complex functionally specific, integrated often irreducibly complex organisation and associated information to account for the dozens of body plans of multicellular life, including our own, is an extension of this challenge.

15 –> Similarly, such materialistic atheists need to credibly account for the reliability and trustworthiness of the human mind, in light of the Haldane challenge that has been on the table since the 1930’s (and of course modern extensions to that challenge):

“It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms.” [[“When I am dead,” in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209. ]

16 –> Last but not least, given the force of the amorality confessed to and/or directly implied by leading materialistic atheists such as Dawkins and Provine,  atheistical, evolutionary materialists need to very carefully ponder the issues that were long since put on the table by Plato in The Laws, Bk X, 2350 years ago, in 360 BC:

[[The avant garde philosophers, teachers and artists c. 400 BC] say that the greatest and fairest things are the work of nature and of chance, the lesser of art [[ i.e. techne], which, receiving from nature the greater and primeval creations, moulds and fashions all those lesser works which are generally termed artificial . . . They say that fire and water, and earth and air [[i.e the classical “material” elements of the cosmos], all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art, and that as to the bodies which come next in order-earth, and sun, and moon, and stars-they have been created by means of these absolutely inanimate existences. The elements are severally moved by chance and some inherent force according to certain affinities among them-of hot with cold, or of dry with moist, or of soft with hard, and according to all the other accidental admixtures of opposites which have been formed by necessity. After this fashion and in this manner the whole heaven has been created, and all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only . . . .

[[T]hese people would say that the Gods exist not by nature, but by art, and by the laws of states, which are different in different places, according to the agreement of those who make them; and that the honourable is one thing by nature and another thing by law, and that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.– [[Relativism, too, is not new; complete with its radical amorality rooted in a worldview that has no foundational IS that can ground OUGHT. (Cf. here for Locke’s views and sources on a very different base for grounding liberty as opposed to license and resulting anarchistic “every man does what is right in his own eyes” chaos leading to tyranny.)] These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might [[ Evolutionary materialism leads to the promotion of amorality], and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions [[Evolutionary materialism-motivated amorality “naturally” leads to continual contentions and power struggles; cf. dramatisation here],  these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is, to live in real dominion over others [[such amoral factions, if they gain power, “naturally” tend towards ruthless tyranny; here, too, Plato hints at the career of Alcibiades], and not in legal subjection to them . . .

__________

It seems there are a few questions for scientific atheists to answer to, before we should take their attempt to monopolise science as anything beyond an ideological agenda.

It would be quite interesting to see their answers. END

Comments
I reply to ESt below [and will come back up and mark: 15 below], as it is hard to track developments with the sub-threading effect.kairosfocus
November 14, 2011
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Eigenstate & WJM: WJM has raised several significant points that you ESt will need to address carefully. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
November 14, 2011
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GB: I think you are missing entire fields of relevant study:
I follow the scientific literature fairly closely and I don’t recall any discoveries in the biological sciences that provide positive evidence for ID to the exclusion of evolutionary mechanisms. Did you have some specific scientific studies in mind?
I have highlighted the key conceptual gap. Robust designs are capable of adaptation to new requirements and situations, indeed the current state of a system usually reflects such adaptations. Just think about how software evolves BY DESIGN. With self-replicating and/or reproducing systems, adaptation will be a reasonable expectation, within limits. That is the valid part of Darwin's theory, adaptation of a body plan within limits, based on built-in mechanisms. The real problems with the evolutionary materialist paradigm -- and that is what is the hidden, controlling premise in your discussion -- is in the origin of viable body plans. And on that the observational evidence is not even ambiguous: there is no question but that Gould et al are right; the fossil record of life in the deep past is one of sudden appearance, stasis and disappearance or continuation into the current world. Despite many headlines to the contrary, genuine transitions are as scarce as hen's teeth, and that in a context where it should dominate the record. The Cambrian fossil life revolution is only the most obvious case. But, inject the materialist controlling a priori and poof, all of that becomes meaningless. For, on evolutionary materialism imposed by methodological naturalism that demands only "naturalistic" explanations, the answer MUST be blind chance plus mechanical necessity working through chance variations and natural selection, in various ways. And to those caught up in the Darwinian cave shadow show system, of course there will be no evidence incompatible with the system. THERE IS NO POSSIBLE EVIDENCE INCOMPATIBLE WITH THE SYSTEM, IT MUST BE SO BY FORCE OF CONTROLLING MATERIALIST A PRIORI. That is, the answer is that a massive question is being begged and question-begging has been institutionalised in origins studies. How do we break this circle? First, by identifying that it is a circle. And, exposing that no acceptable evidence will be allowed to break out of the circle, so -- passing over the suppressed evidence and issues -- of course there is "no evidence" that it is wrong. It is ever so with systems based on triumphant, institutionalised question begging. (Ever had a serious conversation with a Marxist or a Freudian in the heyday of those systems? Darwin is the last of those essentially Victorian era worldview systems imposed in the name of science.) Next, examine the dynamics and empirical evidence on the crucial issue a bit more closely: the empirically warranted origin of functionally specific, complex digital information, and the related analysis of the way digital data driven self-replication works. In short, there has been a paradigm bridge to another domain of science, once the nature of DNA was identified: complex, symbolic digital code in the heart of the living cell. Once we have that bridge, the well-established findings of a different domain of science are applicable, and the circles of thought that dominate Darwinist evolutionary science are suddenly irrelevant. For, if Darwinism is exposed as being informationally utterly implausible or absurd, it is implausible and absurd under the weight of facts and analysis in a domain the Darwinists do not and cannot control. And, wagon-circling notwithstanding, that is exactly what has happened. Complex, algorithmically functional, symbolic digital information has just one known and plausible source: design. The reason for that is quite simple: unless you have high and controllable contingency, you cannot express, store or use digital, symbolic information, but at the same time, the number of possibilities grows exponentially with complexity. For instance, for a binary digital -- two state per element -- system of n bits, the number of possibilities for configs is 2^n. For just 500 bits, we have 3.27*10^150 possibilities, where the 10^57 atoms of our solar system, in 10^17 s [ord of mag for the age on the usual timeline] would have just 10^102 Planck time quantum states, where it takes 10^30 such states for the fastest chemical interactions. The comparison is that the resources of the solar system allow a blind search of that space equivalent to pulling one straw at random from a cubical hay bale 3 1/2 light days across. An entire solar system could lurk in that hay bale, but the overwhelmingly likely outcome is that you will pull straw. The only empirically warranted means to find needles in such a haystack is intelligence, not chance. And, in the context of biology, until you reach shores of an island of function, you cannot properly argue to incremental development in small steps. That points to origin of live as the pivotal issue. Take a warm little prebiotic pond or the like scenario, allow only blind, plausible chemical and physical processes, and explain to us, how one gets TO first life. ANS: Deafening silence. (Then, shushing of the OOL researchers who have reached mutual ruin in their investigations on genes first and metabolism first tracks. We have irreducibly complex entities that require abundant information and integrated processes, resting on similarly deeply complex components that in our observation come from prior living systems. Chicken-egg deadlock. Only viable solution: complex, symbolic function based systems have one known source: design. And, distractors and denials notwithstanding, Venter et al have shown proof of concept that such design is possible.) WAGON-CIRCLING: Biological evolution starts from already existing life, so you cannot bring this to bear! PROBLEM: The Darwinian tree of life therefore has no root. No roots, no trunk, no branches and no fruit! You have to account for 100,000 - 1 mn bits of functional biological info, and you are unable to even sample a reasonable sample of the config space. Just 1,000 bits is enough to swamp the 10^80 or so atoms of the observed cosmos, and we are at 100 times that number of bits, with the config space doubling with every additional bit. Just 100,000 bits is a space of 9.99 *10^30,102 possibilities. And to posit a quasi-infinite multiverse (unobserved) is to put up a philosophical speculation [perhaps dressed up in a lab coat], which means other serious philosophical possibilities have a right to sit to the table of comparative difficulties, on pain of being exposed in censorship. Which is exactly the problem exposed in the original post. FIRST COMPOUNDING PROBLEM: Biological systems are based on self-replicating cells. This in turn is based on symbolically coded information, so also on language and algorithms. The only empirically known, credible source of such is design. SECOND COMPOUNDING PROBLEM: To get to the dozens of complex body plans based on integrated sets of specialised cells, tissues, organs and systems, the information hurdle jumps up to 10 mn - 100 mn bits. At the low end, that is 9.05 * 3,010,299 possibilities, and your scope of search narrowed down to the solar system, at most. _____________ In short, the reason you have not seen the relevant evidence is because you are not looking in the right place. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
November 14, 2011
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To bornagain77 & Kairosfocus, I have to agree with eigenstate, your posts are incredibly long and tortuous. I suspect few people ever read them. And the endless links to creationist sites. Could you make an effort to be just a little more succinct ?Graham
November 13, 2011
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OK, noted, and thank you for setting me straight.eigenstate
November 13, 2011
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BA77, Just a note in case you should at some point wonder if I'm reading or responding to your posts that are in putatively in reply to mine. I responded to your unintelligible but short and original one just back a ways. I will continue to reply in cases where it even vague appears you are trying to engage with some "custom thinking". But the cut-and-paste spam jobs I will just ignore. Clearly the management here doesn't mind that kind of spew, and that's just fine, and your welcome to spamify my comments all you like. I will just keep scrolling by, as it appears most everyone else does.eigenstate
November 13, 2011
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I'm coming to this discussion rather late, but I would like to say to those who believe that atheism, materialism, naturalism, or whatever name you wish to put to it, is rational and explains everything so why introduce the unnecessary concept of a deity, that for me what first unhooked me from atheistic materialism was the realization that materialism is completely unable to explain the most basic fact of human existence, the fact from which ALL else follows, and that is the fact of experience, or consciousness. No materialist has ever successfully advanced a theory that explains how the experience of anything (color, sound, thought, emotion, physical pain and pleasure, etc.) can arise from inanimate, unfeeling, non-experiencing matter, no matter how complexly organized. Put another way, how do you program a computer to FEEL fear, or love, or physical pain? or to actually experience a sound? It can't be done. There isn't the remotest beginning of a theory to explain experience. Given that materialism cannot explain the most basic fact of human existence, the claim that it explains everything and thus there is no need of any other concept falls flat on its face. To say that well, science just hasn't gotten that far yet, but just be patient and it will is nothing more nor less than an article of faith, a belief that somehow it can be explained within the materialistic paradigm, and so the claim that materialism can explain everything is seen to be not the result of rational thought, but rather a statement of blind faith.Bruce David
November 13, 2011
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Eigenstate, I truly appreciate your extensive, patient and civil responses. You are proving to be quite a good read! Just for now, as I don't have adequate time right now to properly read the above and respond, but I wanted to advise on something I saw skimming over:
So you do have warrant and should be concerned about that, as a Christian.
Careful with those assumptions! I'm not a member or follower of any religious or spiritual doctrine - at least none that I'm aware of. Later.William J Murray
November 13, 2011
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I think you have cause and effect confused, here. Atheism would be a conclusion produced by an underlying worldview for me, not the worldview itself.
Please describe to me how your atheism is "a conclusion produced by an underlying worldview".
The point was something quite different, just that atheism is a negation, and not a positive framework itself.
Unless you are going to argue that your atheism doesn't impact - in any important or necessary way - any other belief or view you have, then claiming that it is not a positive framework in and of itself (even as subset of a larger framework) is a pretty sketchy claim, IMO.
Atheism doesn’t entail any particular ethical framework, for example. Denying existence of gods does not commit one to utilitarianism, libertarianism, syncretist, etc., and these are the positive factors that inform the ethical foundations for our views. Importantly, many of them conflict with each other and are mutually incompatible, even if they can all agree to the atheist negation that there are likely no extant gods.
Do you disagree that atheism necessarily indicates that ethics are intrinsically subjective? If so, isn't this an ethical view that is in fact necessitated by the atheistic premsie? If not, then please explain.
In any case, the interpretive grid one adopts, and particularly one’s innate trust for one’s intuitions, and how immune one’s intuitions are from assault by critical review and doubt by the self or others, provides the “lens” for looking at the world in ways that lead, depending on the particulars, to a belief in God or not.
Fair enough, but even if true, that doesn't prevent atheism/theism from becoming a necessary or important part of one's "interpretive grid"; to wit, an atheist might on force of commitment to atheism alone simply dismiss with prejudice all claims, arguments and/or evidence supporting the idea that god exists for no reason other than that they are now committed to an atheistic view.
On moral relativism, might cannot make right in some general sense, BY DEFINITION. Moral relativism, if we just take a very simplistic (but workable for our purposes, here) rendering as “It’s morally good to me, because I believe it is”, NECESSARILY cannot resolve to “might makes right” as a general conclusion, because that very formulation DENIES SUCH GENERAL CONCLUSIONS.
If you only regard the statement and ignore its necessary warrant of personal might to claim that morality **is** whatever they believe it to be. Just because you ignore what authorizes your right and don't mention it, doesn't mean it isn't being necessarily implicated.
If Jack believes, as a moral relativist, that “might does NOT make right”, and Jill believes, as a moral relativist that “might DOES make right”, how would you resolve those, as one who putatively really has “thought it out” on moral relativist terms.
Because if they are both operating under moral relativism, neither of them are referring to any objective standard or principle; they can only be ultimately referring to their own capacity (might) to simply choose what morality means. Both claims (under subjectivism) refer to the individual's might (individual subjective capacity) to simply assert and believe what is and is not right for them.
Which one prevails, on moral relativism? It’s a trick question, but that’s the point — you’ve not thought this through even superficially!
I've thought it out quite extensively, and still think about it, because I consider morality a very important, day to day, minute-by-minute subject. Note how because you can phrase statements in terms of apparently contradicting conclusions, you think you have reached a logic conclusion without even considering the premise from which those statements are drawn. If I, as a moral relativist, say "Morality is not based on might makes right", then upon what not "might makes right" principle am I founding that assertion? What gives me the right to say what is moral, and what is not, even in terms of broad generalities? Under moral relativism, there is nothing to refer to when one claims what moral system they employ (utilitarianism, categorical imperative, etc.) other than, ultimately, personal preference - the subjective, personal capacity to assert it ... otherwise known as might.
If a thousand moral relativists have one thousand different subjective moral convictions, and as a matter of realpolitik some individuals or other resort to violence and other methods of projecting power over the others, that might doesn’t make right on moral relativism.
I think you're thinking of "might" in a different sense that I'm using it, but under moral relativism, the ability of that one person to claim that brute, physical might = right and impose it does in fact make that act moral for him. Since morality is taken by the one thousand subjectivists to be subjective, they have no warrant for asserting that the lone violent man's morality is "wrong" (unless the refer to consensus, but then that's just another subjectively-chosen means for determining "what is moral"). He is adhering to his subjective standard; they are adhering to theirs. Everyone is being subjectively moral. They can subjectively call his behavior wrong according to their subjective view, but from the warrant that authorizes them to claim their own subjective view as valid (their individual capacity to simply assert it), his view is warranted in the exact same way - because he asserts it. The one thousand assert their moral view from the same warrant that he asserts his, even if what they assert are two entirely different things.
It’s just might, and moral relativism, for whatever failings we might identify in it, does not and cannot be implicated as countenancing that in a general way, because moral relativism by definition cannot issue such general assertions.
I didn't say moral relativism issued such a conclusion, but rather necessarily draws it's warrant from might makes right.
On moral relativism, their grounds for objecting to the moral views of others is their subjective convictions about moral values. This is not might that underwrites their authority, but just their mental autonomy, their own subjectivity.
Which is what I mean by "might" - their own personal say so without reference to any objective standard. They have the power to simply choose whatever standard they wish; that power to choose (will to power) is might, and it authorizes their choice. On the other hand, if one considers morality to refer to a universal, objective, necessary purpose, then morality isn't generated by one's personal might. When you say that their grounds for objecting to the morals or behavior is their own subjective view you are making a categorical error. They might subjectively disagree (as the product of their subjective views), but the grounds that authorize them to assert that morality is actually determined by subjective views - validates the morality of those they are disagreeing with, and it ultimately validates every individually held moral view as being as legitimate as any other.
As such, it is not and cannot be binding or deontologically normative on others. It’s the antithesis of “might makes right”. It’s “subjectivity eviscerates claims to moral authority through might”.
Here, you are the one mistaking conclusion for premise. The question is not "what kinds of morality can subjectivity produce", but rather "what premise or principle authorizes one to subjectively determine what is moral?" What authorizes one to claim their own personal subjective morality is might (will power, personal capacity to do so without arbitration by any superceding, objective commodity), even if - from that subjective perspective - the assert that might does not make right. Similarly, if god arbitrarily commands what is moral or not, and the command alone makes the act moral - as in the case of Craig's defense of god's command to kill off the Canaanites - that morality is no better than subjectivist morality, because we can never know if an act is moral or not. It might be commanded by god. So, what morality refers to- the good, final cause, objective human purpose - must be a necessary commodity that even god cannot arbitrarily change.
It’s a self-serving challenge, and says: Atheists, please now justify your moral frameworks in terms of moral values that stem from a God, a moral lawgiver, a moral dogma.
No, it's a challenge to justify your moral framework any way you wish. If you agree that, under general moral relativism (not any specific, individual view), gassing the Jews is as intrinsic a moral act as saving them, then we have nothing to debate. For the moral relativist, IMO, morality is really nothing but rhetoric - a means of justifying one's behavior to oneself (and by no fundamental standard or principle), and manipulating others to do what they would rather others do.
The very core of what you understand to be “grounds” for moral law or deontology is bogus, unwarranted.
I'd like to see you make this case. What rules do you think are my grounds for moral law? Be careful about what you assume.
If you point to evolved human nature as an objective set of facts (and man’s physiology and evolved psychology are facts on the ground that are objective — they are what they are regardless of the will or mind of anyone here or anywhere),
Perhaps, but evaluating, categorizing, and interpreting them cannot be done outside of mind - including one's ideological assumptions and interpretive heuristic.
that ground human intuitions about fairness, justice, empathy, dignity, etc., Craig isn’t interested.
You're not debating Craig.
I’m quite happy to be challenged to examine and defend my views, but I’m not such a chump to fall for “Please ground your morals as an atheist in my God-centric self-serving notions of moral grounding”. It is Christians’ inability or unwillingness to think, even provisionally, outside of this self-serving box that stunts the discussion, and reduces it to just trolling for chumps by Christian apologists.
I'm not a Christian or follower (even loosely) of any organized religion or spiritual doctrine. All of the views I argue are either supportable by logic and/or evidence, or I don't argue them.William J Murray
November 13, 2011
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Further note: Genesis 2:7 "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Falsification Of Neo-Darwinism by Quantum Entanglement/Information https://docs.google.com/document/d/1p8AQgqFqiRQwyaF8t1_CKTPQ9duN8FHU9-pV4oBDOVs/edit?hl=en_US Does Quantum Biology Support A Quantum Soul? – Stuart Hameroff - video (notes in description) http://vimeo.com/29895068bornagain77
November 13, 2011
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Jello, In nature there is a chemical arrangement, where in a linear fashion, cytosine is followed by thymine and that is followed by adenine. These three are chemically recognized in this order (among other such arrangements) within a dedicated system, operating under the observed formality that this arrangement will result in something that it has no material relationship with. And changing any part of that arrangement will alter the way it is recognized within the formal structure of that system. And for that arrangement to ultimately result in something (it has no material relationship with) it must first be separate from it, yet still constrain it. To accomplish this, the system itself must physically recognize this arrangement, and respond under that observed formality. The system must physically bridge the separation between the arrangement and the result, while allowing the arrangement to alter the result. By allowing the arrangement to alter the result, the observed formality becomes the cause of the constraint. For such a system to operate, there must be something that physically sets the formality, while allowing the arrangement and the result to remain separate. To accomplish this, the thing that sets the formality must physically establish a relationship between two separate things which have no physical relationship. And to accomplish that, it must be physically separate as well; for if it were a part of either the arrangement or the result, then the two would interact and the system could not function. Yet by being separate and setting the formality, the system operates. Because the system operates, that arrangement of cytosine-thymine-adenine acts as one discrete formal interaction in an individual sequence of hundreds or thousands, with these individual sequences collective creating and integrating all the proteins necessary for life to exist. And all of this must be in place for heredity or evolution as we know it to even exist. So on our way to getting one codon mapped to one amino acid, we have come across a massive influx in formalities (including linear input, arrangements of three, initiation, halting, recognition, etc) which are all entirely dependent upon one codon formally mapping to one amino acid. What is the source of all these formalities? You cannot answer that question without first taking an account of what that source must do, and how that source must do it.Upright BiPed
November 13, 2011
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Quick F/N: From Plato on, the proper contrast has been nature [ = chance +/or mechanical necessity] vs art [= intelligent, choice based contingency]. This is amenable to empirical investigation on tested characteristic signs, e.g natural regularity --> low contingency on similar start conditions. Similarly high contingency for similar start points points to chance or choice. Chance fits with stochastic distributions or models, while choice can be spotted from giving rise to purpose-relevant configs that are utterly unlikely on chance, given the available atomic resources and time in our solar system or observed cosmos. By contrast the natural vs supernatural contrast is metaphysically loaded and tends to censor investigations based on a prioris, not an objective investigation. Tag something as supernat and the censor says don't go there. But, why the tag and block when there is another way? Much better, is to test and authenticate reliable signs, then use them to explain likely causes of things we did not directly see being caused. Indeed, that is what Lyell etc used to probe the deep unobserved past. The a priori materialism imposes an inconsistency on origins studies based on a worldview agenda backed up by the institutional clout of the atheist networks in key positions of influence. So, we see the hidden agenda and how it harms science and science edu, cf the NSTA position statement in OP. And if you do that you cannot properly or truthfully present science under such constraints as an objective or open minded exploration of the truth about our world based on the evidence. Such materialist censorship undermines the integrity of sci praxis and sci edu. Which is the key problem that is being ignored or denied or even suppressed. Later. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
November 13, 2011
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The conflict of reconciling General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics appears to arise from the inability of either theory to successfully deal with the Zero/Infinity problem that crops up in different places of each theory:
THE MYSTERIOUS ZERO/INFINITY Excerpt: The biggest challenge to today’s physicists is how to reconcile general relativity and quantum mechanics. However, these two pillars of modern science were bound to be incompatible. “The universe of general relativity is a smooth rubber sheet. It is continuous and flowing, never sharp, never pointy. Quantum mechanics, on the other hand, describes a jerky and discontinuous universe. What the two theories have in common – and what they clash over – is zero.”,, “The infinite zero of a black hole — mass crammed into zero space, curving space infinitely — punches a hole in the smooth rubber sheet. The equations of general relativity cannot deal with the sharpness of zero. In a black hole, space and time are meaningless.”,, “Quantum mechanics has a similar problem, a problem related to the zero-point energy. The laws of quantum mechanics treat particles such as the electron as points; that is, they take up no space at all. The electron is a zero-dimensional object,,, According to the rules of quantum mechanics, the zero-dimensional electron has infinite mass and infinite charge. http://www.fmbr.org/editoral/edit01_02/edit6_mar02.htm Quantum Mechanics and Relativity – The Collapse Of Physics? – video – with notes as to plausible reconciliation that is missed by materialists (Please note; the ‘infinity problem’ is focused primarily in black holes) http://www.metacafe.com/watch/6597379/
Yet, the unification, into a ‘theory of everything’, between what is in essence the ‘infinite Theistic world of Quantum Mechanics’ and the ‘finite Materialistic world of the 4-D space-time of General Relativity’ seems to be directly related to what Jesus apparently joined together with His resurrection, i.e. related to the unification of infinite God with finite man. Dr. William Dembski in this following comment, though not directly addressing the Zero/Infinity conflict in General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics, offers insight into this ‘unification’ of the infinite and the finite:
The End Of Christianity – Finding a Good God in an Evil World – Pg.31 - William Dembski PhD. in Mathematics and Theology Excerpt: “In mathematics there are two ways to go to infinity. One is to grow large without measure. The other is to form a fraction in which the denominator goes to zero. The Cross is a path of humility in which the infinite God becomes finite and then contracts to zero, only to resurrect and thereby unite a finite humanity within a newfound infinity.” http://www.designinference.com/documents/2009.05.end_of_xty.pdf
,,,Also of related interest to this ‘Zero/Infinity conflict of reconciliation’, between General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics, is the fact that a ‘uncollapsed’ photon, in its quantum wave state, is mathematically defined as ‘infinite’ information,,,
Wave function - wikipedia Excerpt “wave functions form an abstract vector space”,,, This vector space is infinite-dimensional, because there is no finite set of functions which can be added together in various combinations to create every possible function. Quantum Computing – Stanford Encyclopedia Excerpt: Theoretically, a single (photon) qubit can store an infinite amount of information, yet when measured (and thus collapsing the Quantum Wave state) it yields only the classical result (0 or 1),,, http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-quantcomp/#2.1
,,Moreover there is actual physical evidence that lends strong support to the position that the ‘Zero/Infinity conflict’, that we find between General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics, was successfully dealt with by Christ,,,
THE EVENT HORIZON (Space-Time Singularity) OF THE SHROUD OF TURIN. – Isabel Piczek – Particle Physicist Excerpt: We have stated before that the images on the Shroud firmly indicate the total absence of Gravity. Yet they also firmly indicate the presence of the Event Horizon. These two seemingly contradict each other and they necessitate the past presence of something more powerful than Gravity that had the capacity to solve the above paradox. http://shroud3d.com/findings/isabel-piczek-image-formation The Center Of The Universe Is Life – General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, Entropy and The Shroud Of Turin – video http://www.metacafe.com/w/5070355 Turin Shroud Enters 3D Age – Holographic Pictures, Articles and Videos https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1gDY4CJkoFedewMG94gdUk1Z1jexestdy5fh87RwWAfg “Miracles do not happen in contradiction to nature, but only in contradiction to that which is known to us of nature.” St. Augustine
While I agree with a criticism, from a Christian, that was leveled against the preceding Shroud of Turin video, that God indeed needed no help from the universe in the resurrection event of Christ since all things are possible with God, I am none-the-less very happy to see that what is considered the number one problem of Physicists and Mathematicians in physics today, of a ‘unification into a theory of everything’ for what is in essence the finite world of the entropic space-time of General Relativity and the infinite Theistic world of Quantum Mechanics, does in fact seem to find a successful resolution for ‘unification’ within the resurrection event of Jesus Christ Himself. It seems almost overwhelmingly apparent to me from the ‘scientific evidence’ we now have in hand that Christ literally ripped a hole in the finite entropic space-time of this universe to reunite infinite God with finite man. That modern science would even offer such a almost tangible glimpse into the mechanics of what happened in the tomb of Christ should be a source of great wonder and comfort for the Christian heart.
Psalms 16:10 because you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One see decay. Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and upon earth.” Achieved Is The Glorious Work - music http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StTFG2KJf9M
further note: It should also be pointed out that Special and General Relativity reveal two very, very, different ‘eternalities of time’ within space-time. The ‘entropic eternality of time’ revealed for black holes is rather disturbing for those of us of a spiritual persuasion, and should 'scare the Hell out of' a reasonably minded person:
On The Mystery, and Plasticity, of Space-Time: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1FFKL3FeyebpNNyal1DQ64y20zlplVrjkaLXrM0P5ES4/edit?hl=en_US
bornagain77
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eigenstate you state:
I advocate for philosophical materialism, which I see as the most reasonable and evidence-powered interpretation of the witness of science-as-methodological-naturalism.
OK, prove that your conclusion of philosophical materialism is warranted from the scientific method!,,, With Alain Aspect's (and company) falsification of local realism (reductive materialism), with quantum entanglement, this should be very entertaining to watch you try to do!.,,, Here is a rough outline of the case for Christian Theism from the scientific method. Notes; Centrality of Each Observer In The Universe and Christ’s Very Plausible Reconciliation Of General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics A ‘Christian interpretation' offers a very plausible, empirically backed, reconciliation of General Relativity with Quantum Mechanics: First a little background: ,,, First I noticed that the earth demonstrates centrality in the universe in this video Dr. Dembski posted a while back;
The Known Universe – Dec. 2009 – a very cool video (please note the centrality of the earth in the universe) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17jymDn0W6U
,,, for a while I tried to see if the 4-D space-time of General Relativity was sufficient to explain centrality we witness for the earth in the universe,,,
Where is the centre of the universe?: Excerpt: The Big Bang should not be visualized as an ordinary explosion. The universe is not expanding out from a centre into space; rather, the whole universe is expanding and it is doing so equally at all places, as far as we can tell. http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/GR/centre.html
,,,Thus from a 3-dimensional (3D) perspective, any particular 3D spot in the universe is to be considered just as ‘center of the universe’ as any other particular spot in the universe is to be considered ‘center of the universe’. This centrality found for any 3D place in the universe is because the universe is a 4D expanding hypersphere, analogous in 3D to the surface of an expanding balloon. All points on the surface are moving away from each other, and every point is central, if that’s where you live.,,,
4-Dimensional Space-Time Of General Relativity – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3991873/
,,,yet I kept running into the same problem for establishing the sufficiency of General Relativity to explain our centrality in this universe, in that every time I would perform a ‘thought experiment’ of trying radically different points of observation in the universe, General Relativity would fail to maintain centrality for the radically different point of observation in the universe. The primary reason for this failure of General Relativity to maintain centrality, for different points of observation in the universe, is due to the fact that there are limited (10^80) material particles to work with. Though this failure of General Relativity was obvious to me, I needed more proof so as to establish it more rigorously, so I dug around a bit and found this,,,
The Cauchy Problem In General Relativity – Igor Rodnianski Excerpt: 2.2 Large Data Problem In General Relativity – While the result of Choquet-Bruhat and its subsequent refinements guarantee the existence and uniqueness of a (maximal) Cauchy development, they provide no information about its geodesic completeness and thus, in the language of partial differential equations, constitutes a local existence. ,,, More generally, there are a number of conditions that will guarantee the space-time will be geodesically incomplete.,,, In the language of partial differential equations this means an impossibility of a large data global existence result for all initial data in General Relativity. http://www.icm2006.org/proceedings/Vol_III/contents/ICM_Vol_3_22.pdf
,,,and also ‘serendipitously’ found this,,,
THE GOD OF THE MATHEMATICIANS – DAVID P. GOLDMAN – August 2010 Excerpt: Gödel’s personal God is under no obligation to behave in a predictable orderly fashion, and Gödel produced what may be the most damaging critique of general relativity. In a Festschrift, (a book honoring Einstein), for Einstein’s seventieth birthday in 1949, Gödel demonstrated the possibility of a special case in which, as Palle Yourgrau described the result, “the large-scale geometry of the world is so warped that there exist space-time curves that bend back on themselves so far that they close; that is, they return to their starting point.” This means that “a highly accelerated spaceship journey along such a closed path, or world line, could only be described as time travel.” In fact, “Gödel worked out the length and time for the journey, as well as the exact speed and fuel requirements.” Gödel, of course, did not actually believe in time travel, but he understood his paper to undermine the Einsteinian worldview from within. http://www.firstthings.com/article/2010/07/the-god-of-the-mathematicians
,,,But if General Relativity is insufficient to explain the centrality we witness for ourselves in the universe, what else is? Universal Quantum wave collapse to each unique point of observation is! To prove this point I dug around a bit and found this experiment,,, This following experiment extended the double slit experiment to show that the ‘spooky actions’, for instantaneous quantum wave collapse, happen regardless of any considerations for time or distance i.e. The following experiment shows that quantum actions are ‘universal and instantaneous’ for each observer:
Wheeler’s Classic Delayed Choice Experiment: Excerpt: Now, for many billions of years the photon is in transit in region 3. Yet we can choose (many billions of years later) which experimental set up to employ – the single wide-focus, or the two narrowly focused instruments. We have chosen whether to know which side of the galaxy the photon passed by (by choosing whether to use the two-telescope set up or not, which are the instruments that would give us the information about which side of the galaxy the photon passed). We have delayed this choice until a time long after the particles “have passed by one side of the galaxy, or the other side of the galaxy, or both sides of the galaxy,” so to speak. Yet, it seems paradoxically that our later choice of whether to obtain this information determines which side of the galaxy the light passed, so to speak, billions of years ago. So it seems that time has nothing to do with effects of quantum mechanics. And, indeed, the original thought experiment was not based on any analysis of how particles evolve and behave over time – it was based on the mathematics. This is what the mathematics predicted for a result, and this is exactly the result obtained in the laboratory. http://www.bottomlayer.com/bottom/basic_delayed_choice.htm Genesis, Quantum Physics and Reality Excerpt: Simply put, an experiment on Earth can be made in such a way that it determines if one photon comes along either on the right or the left side or if it comes (as a wave) along both sides of the gravitational lens (of the galaxy) at the same time. However, how could the photons have known billions of years ago that someday there would be an earth with inhabitants on it, making just this experiment? ,,, This is big trouble for the multi-universe theory and for the “hidden-variables” approach. http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2000/PSCF3-00Zoeller-Greer.html.ori
,,,Shoot, there is even a experiment that shows the preceding quantum experiments will never be overturned by another ‘future’ theory,,,
An experimental test of all theories with predictive power beyond quantum theory – May 2011 Excerpt: Hence, we can immediately refute any already considered or yet-to-be-proposed alternative model with more predictive power than this (quantum theory). http://arxiv.org/abs/1105.0133
,, and to make universal Quantum Wave collapse much more ‘personal’ I found this,,,
“It was not possible to formulate the laws (of quantum theory) in a fully consistent way without reference to consciousness.” Eugene Wigner (1902 -1995) from his collection of essays “Symmetries and Reflections – Scientific Essays”; Eugene Wigner laid the foundation for the theory of symmetries in quantum mechanics, for which he received the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1963.
,,,Here is the key experiment that led Wigner to his Nobel Prize winning work on quantum symmetries,,,
Eugene Wigner Excerpt: To express this basic experience in a more direct way: the world does not have a privileged center, there is no absolute rest, preferred direction, unique origin of calendar time, even left and right seem to be rather symmetric. The interference of electrons, photons, neutrons has indicated that the state of a particle can be described by a vector possessing a certain number of components. As the observer is replaced by another observer (working elsewhere, looking at a different direction, using another clock, perhaps being left-handed), the state of the very same particle is described by another vector, obtained from the previous vector by multiplying it with a matrix. This matrix transfers from one observer to another. http://www.reak.bme.hu/Wigner_Course/WignerBio/wb1.htm
i.e. In the experiment the ‘world’ (i.e. the universe) does not have a ‘privileged center’. Yet strangely, the conscious observer does exhibit a ‘privileged center’. This is since the ‘matrix’, which determines which vector will be used to describe the particle in the experiment, is ‘observer-centric’ in its origination! Thus explaining Wigner’s dramatic statement, “It was not possible to formulate the laws (of quantum theory) in a fully consistent way without reference to consciousness.” I find it extremely interesting, and strange, that quantum mechanics tells us that instantaneous quantum wave collapse to its ‘uncertain’ 3-D state is centered on each individual observer in the universe, whereas, 4-D space-time cosmology (General Relativity) tells us each 3-D point in the universe is central to the expansion of the universe. These findings of modern science are pretty much exactly what we would expect to see if this universe were indeed created, and sustained, from a higher dimension by a omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, eternal Being who knows everything that is happening everywhere in the universe at the same time. These findings certainly seem to go to the very heart of the age old question asked of many parents by their children, “How can God hear everybody’s prayers at the same time?”,,, i.e. Why should the expansion of the universe, or the quantum wave collapse of the entire universe, even care that you or I, or anyone else, should exist? Only Theism offers a rational explanation as to why you or I, or anyone else, should have such undeserved significance in such a vast universe:
Psalm 33:13-15 The LORD looks from heaven; He sees all the sons of men. From the place of His dwelling He looks on all the inhabitants of the earth; He fashions their hearts individually; He considers all their works.
The expansion of every 3D point in the universe, and the quantum wave collapse of the entire universe to each point of conscious observation in the universe, is obviously a very interesting congruence in science between the very large (relativity) and the very small (quantum mechanics). A congruence that Physicists, and Mathematicians, seem to be having a extremely difficult time ‘unifying’ into a ‘theory of everything’.(Einstein, Penrose).bornagain77
November 13, 2011
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@William J Murray
Moving backwards to sufficiently grounding premise for our assumption, which is our accepted root of scientific inquiry, the following questions need answering: (1) Why should we expect humans to be able to deliberately discern true (at least provisionally) statements by observing phenomena?
We shouldn't in any self-justifying. It's an intuiton, the idea that reality is reflected to some intelligible degree by observable phenomena. That makes it a research program, one that doesn't to justify itself metaphyscally, but rather just urges getting on with the research project and evaluating the results. If the intuition is correct, then we should be able to build performative models to some degree. If the intuition is incorrect, we shan't expect performative models to emerge or intelligible processes to be identified via empirical heuristics.
(2) What is the term “natural” (methodological naturalism) offered in relationship to, and what is the substantive meaning of the alternative that requires this qualifying term as part of the description of scientific inquiry?
"Natural" opposes "supernatural", where "natural" points at phonomena which are observable (at least in principle). This is required by the practice of science because models cannot be developed or tested without observation. Models that rely on dynamics that defy observation, testing, and independent validation cannot be judged as performative, and science's goal is the acquisition of natural knowledge through performative models. Working backwards, if you take away methodological naturalism, you have no basis for objective assessment of a model's performance. If you can't assess performance, you cannot assign meaning to "knowledge" as distinct from "non-knowledge". Without that, knowledge and non-knowledge are synonymous (this is theology, then).
(3) Why should we expect to find natural phenomena behaving in orderly, predictable, consistent patterns that can be examined in a methodological manner?[/quote] As a matter of philosophical bootstrapping and first principles, we shouldn't, and science depends on no such justification. It's a research program, and the merits of the hypothesis are determined AFTER the fact, after the research has been pursued and we can see what, if any, progress we can make in building performative models based on predictable, constistent patterns in the dynamics of our observable surroundings. As a matter of biology, we observe that humans are physiologically hardwired to engage in scientific model building -- from birth, and before. So as a matter of practical justification, humans can't help but do otherwise. We are compelled by the physiologically we inherent to build models and continually refine them through the corrective feedback loops of sensory experience from our first conscious moments.
You said that whether or not a Christian or an atheist conducted scientific research, they would both have to utilize methodological naturalism. Is the Christian and the atheist conducting such research in a heuristic vacuum, or do their broader, existential views influence what they expect to find, how they organize what they are looking for, and how they interpret the results?
The models perform, objectively, in natural terms, or they do not. What is made of that performance is subject to all manner of extra-scientific interpretation and contextualization, and mileage varies in terms of the philosophical implications of that performance (or lack of performance) from person to person. But as an epistemology, science requires methodological naturalism as the underwriter for the semantics of model performance; without it, there is no intersubjective basis for saying "this model succeeded in its prediction", or "this one didn't", and it collapses into something impotent like theology if that methodological requirement is removed. Whether you are atheist or Christian or Buddhist, Galileo's astronomical model outperformed in natural terms, the other extant models (e.g. Ptolemaic astronomy). What that means in terms of discrediting the Church or not is an extra-scientific question. On natural terms, all participants, Catholic, heretic, atheist or otherwise can agree that the heliocentric model provides superior performance -- testable performance -- over any other available models at that time. "God moves the planets the way in which they move", though, would be a much more efficient model, and would have superior explanatory power, even if the internals are inscrutable. A "supernatural hypothesis" will always win in this case, because it doesn't have to submit to natural mechanics. We can just say "God did it, supernaturally" and be done with it. God's ways and methods, by definition, are necessarily inscrutable and untestable for us. So if we let that divine foot in the door, our whole epistemology collapses, and we are left with "knowing" that "God did it", which is to not know anything at all.
IOW, a methodology doesn’t tell you what to expect, what to look for, or how to interpret what you find; it only tells you how to go about the investigation. If one is confined by the scientific establishment (explicitly or implicitly) to reach only naturalistic conclusions, is that not beyond the scope of the methodology?
The methodology does tell you what to look for. The intution, again, is that if the world around us is in fact to some degree intelligible, then "intelligibility" may take the form of our successfully building performative models based on our experience of our surroundings. We don't know upfront how our research program will pan out -- it's a metaphysical gamble, if one we are hardwired to take by our physical nature. We can only assess the results after the application of the method. Looking back, there seems to be significant evidence that suggests we CAN build models that are performative and testable and that thereby provide the basis for understanding the universe to be intelligible to some degree. So that metaphysical gamble seems to have paid off.
This is important because of the term “explanation”; in scientific methodology terms, an “explanation” is nothing more than a description of a process from sufficient cause to effect. A scientific “explanation” is not a conclusion or an interpretation.
It is important, but you've missed the reason it's important. If the explanation is rendered in natural terms, it cannot be scored and evaluated as part of a model in natural terms. If we can't score it naturally, based on our empirical observations, we're hosed, and then have NO way (that we know of) to ground any intersubjective knowledge. No strict requirements on explanations being natural, no natural models. No natural models, no basis for evaluating performance and incorporating feedback from the extra-mental world. No basis for performance, no distinguishing between knowledge and non-knowledge. External stimuli are the only resource we are aware of that can ground objective knowledge, and separate us from solipsism/theology.
If the scientific leadership has an organized, systemic program of denying or discouraging the expression of non-naturalistic conclusions or interpretations of evidence (note: not methods or explanations) gathered via the methodology, does that not warrant valid concern that those in power in the institution of science are attempting to use the office of science to promote their broader ideology?
It certainly does. It's definitely a risk. Once you get beyond a scientific epistemology, it all becomes subjective politics. So you do have warrant and should be concerned about that, as a Christian. I advocate for philosophical materialism, which I see as the most reasonable and evidence-powered interpretation of the witness of science-as-methodological-naturalism. I believe a reasonable case can be made that this is a superior model to theistic models, and suppose that man would be better off in thinking more carefully and freely choosing such a model in the interests of human well-being, dignity, creativity, justice and prosperity. But for all that, a Christian has the same fruits of methodological naturalism (science) to interpret as she wishes. And many do interpret science in ways that give rise to the embrace of theism and other non-naturalist philosophies. That can't be helped. These issues have to play out socially and politically. But perverting science by depriving it of its crucial ingredient -- methodological naturalism -- is self-defeating for everyone. In that case, now we don't even have any base natural knowledge to develop our interpretations FROM. We are "knowledge poor", as well as being "interpretively challenged" in that case.
We can see here why the term “natural” is important as a qualifier in the term “methodological naturalism”; what does it mean to be limited to a natural sufficient cause? What is the qualifying term actually ruling out?
The method needs to proscribe explanations that are not compatible with empirical testing, falsification and validation of models that incorporate them. So, for any given explanation, we must ask: can this explanation be falsified empirically, or more precisely, can this explanation be incorporated into models that entail its falsification given certain empirical results? This is famously why string theory, an idea which is eminently scientific in its genesis and provenance, fails this requirement. The explanation is not amenable to incorporating into models which can then be empirically falsified based on predictions that are entailed by the model. In the case of string theory, at least, there's some wiggle room, as the "non-testability" of string theory is more of a practical limitation than a problem in principle (we just cannot come close to reproducing the extreme conditions that will provided adjudicative results with our current technology, or anything we can see on the horizon, although it's conceivable that far down the road, we will be able to devise such tests). Other explanations -- God is working behind the veil of randomness to steer quantum events toward the needed point mutations to achieve the form of human development that God desires, for example -- simply and thoroughly defy any incorporation into a model that is empirically testable. If we were to incorporate such explanations, we could not test them, and if we could not empirically test them, we have obviated our grounds for regarding any of these explanations as knowledge. We have lost the "justified" and "true" modifiers in "justified true belief" in so doing.
If one’s answer is “the supernatural”, what exactly does one mean by that? If one’s answer is “art” (as in natural vs artificial), then how do we account for the very real artificial causes we know exist (human design)? If methodological naturalism is only about method and explanation, and not expectations, interpretations or conclusions, then why are non-naturalistic expectations, interpretations and conclusions systematically discouraged by the scientific leadership, office and apparatus?
Methodological naturalism is all about our expectations, interpretations and conclusions. People can do what they want (and they do!) extra-scientifically, but naturalism is the governing constraint for our expectations, interpretations and conclusions in science. We do not conclude that general relativity is a more powerful model than Newtonian physics without natural explanations on the front end, natural models in the middle, and natural testing and result analysis on the back end. I'm repeating myself now, but it's not just natural explanation for yuks. Without naturalism assumed, methodologically, you don't GET conclusions, you don't get anything even modestly objective at all. See the world of theology for more by way of demonstration of this problem.
eigenstate
November 13, 2011
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KF:
I note to Woodford, that the relevant highlights are of citations, not my writing. And, I think the matters above are quite clear enough.
Really not sure what you are referring to, I'm referring to your own original content and how difficult it is to parse. it's a pity because I suspect you've got some important things to say, but personally I just can't get past your communications style. It's a shame, because it could be hindering your effectiveness and scope of influence. And it's a cop-out to just say that it's the readers fault if they don't understand you (I work for a well-known hi-tech company, and there is no way I could ever get away with that one!). It's a pity of course that communication style should matter, but in this day-and-of-age of rapid-fire content delivery, having a good communication style is in fact a pre-requisite to be properly heard. Of course if KF is content with being an anonymous contributor on a relatively obscure blog, my points are of no importance. But given that I believe he seems to want a larger reach, then perhaps it does matter.woodford
November 13, 2011
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Great post KF... It can be somewhat amusing watching the "atheist" play their hide and seek games. Atheism is the polar opposite of theist, they are thus affirming a negative "No God(s)" with their view. By affirming there is "No God(s)" they're attempting to answer a fundamental question that any worldview must somehow answer, the existence of God. But for many atheists, atheism is not considered a worldview, rather just a denial. But they fail to realize that a worldview is first of all an explanation and interpretation of the world and second, an application of this view to life. Answering this very question frames your entire outlook on life. Granted, its one of about four or five questions any worldview must that answer. This is where the atheist will try and default back to naturalism and claim it as their worldview. But how can naturalism answer this question? Does not naturalism deal with the observed natural laws of our universe and not the supernatural? Would not using naturalism as a position to answer this fundamental question end up contradicting itself? Thoughts?KRock
November 13, 2011
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Your right eigenstate, I see no transcendent logic in your words only irrationality!bornagain77
November 13, 2011
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Onlookers: Passing by for a moment. Observe very carefully just how little of the objections above are substantial. I note to Woodford, that the relevant highlights are of citations, not my writing. And, I think the matters above are quite clear enough. Eigenstate, please look up synecdoche. Later. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
November 13, 2011
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BA77,
eigenstate is it not severely hypocritical of you to use transcendent logic and reasoning to prove to us that they don’t truly exist? Or does this glaring flaw in logic escape your reasoning as well?
It must have, as I can't make head nor tail of anything you've said here. You do mention my handle, which suggest you are replying to me, but after that first word, it seems like you accidentally posted some comment to some other person on some other topic somewhere else in here. If that's not the case, tell me what the transcendent logic you see here being applied to prove that -- what? -- doesn't truly exist. If you can provide a very brief synopsis of what you think I've argued here, perhaps I might recognize that. As it is, you've left me nothing to work with. What is the 'they' that you refer to in "they don't truly exist"?eigenstate
November 13, 2011
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Eigenstate says:
It’s not philosophical materialism, it’s methodological materialism. Theists and atheists on a philosophical level engage in methodological naturalism as the predicate for the practice of science, every day. Methodological naturalism is a requirement for scientific knowledge to make any headway at all, epistemically. So the scientist who is a Christian engages methodological naturalism just as fully as the metaphysical materialist, and in so doing, scientific epistemology coheres, and natural knowledge can be developed.
Perhaps from this paragraph headway can be made. It seems you wish to begin with methodological naturalism as the manner in which science must be conducted. Fine, let's posit that. Moving backwards to sufficiently grounding premise for our assumption, which is our accepted root of scientific inquiry, the following questions need answering: (1) Why should we expect humans to be able to deliberately discern true (at least provisionally) statements by observing phenomena? (2) What is the term "natural" (methodological naturalism) offered in relationship to, and what is the substantive meaning of the alternative that requires this qualifying term as part of the description of scientific inquiry? (3) Why should we expect to find natural phenomena behaving in orderly, predictable, consistent patterns that can be examined in a methodological manner? You said that whether or not a Christian or an atheist conducted scientific research, they would both have to utilize methodological naturalism. Is the Christian and the atheist conducting such research in a heuristic vacuum, or do their broader, existential views influence what they expect to find, how they organize what they are looking for, and how they interpret the results? IOW, a methodology doesn't tell you what to expect, what to look for, or how to interpret what you find; it only tells you how to go about the investigation. If one is confined by the scientific establishment (explicitly or implicitly) to reach only naturalistic conclusions, is that not beyond the scope of the methodology? This is important because of the term "explanation"; in scientific methodology terms, an "explanation" is nothing more than a description of a process from sufficient cause to effect. A scientific "explanation" is not a conclusion or an interpretation. If the scientific leadership has an organized, systemic program of denying or discouraging the expression of non-naturalistic conclusions or interpretations of evidence (note: not methods or explanations) gathered via the methodology, does that not warrant valid concern that those in power in the institution of science are attempting to use the office of science to promote their broader ideology? We can see here why the term "natural" is important as a qualifier in the term "methodological naturalism"; what does it mean to be limited to a natural sufficient cause? What is the qualifying term actually ruling out? If one's answer is "the supernatural", what exactly does one mean by that? If one's answer is "art" (as in natural vs artificial), then how do we account for the very real artificial causes we know exist (human design)? If methodological naturalism is only about method and explanation, and not expectations, interpretations or conclusions, then why are non-naturalistic expectations, interpretations and conclusions systematically discouraged by the scientific leadership, office and apparatus?William J Murray
November 13, 2011
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KF:
PS: When dealing with evolutionary materialists, who — on long track record — find a difficulty with simple straightforward reading, emphasis is a help to the willing, and exposes the neglect of duty to read with due care and attention on the part of the unwilling.
No disrespect KF, but your writing style is anything but straightforward. It takes a lot of work to decipher and parse what you are trying to say. I read as many as 3-4 dozen blogs in a day, and to be really honest, I rarely read your pieces, and even more rarely finish them (only skimmed this one). It's not because I'm unwilling, but because I don't have the time. Or maybe I'm just not as smart as most of the people here. The Internet is a marketplace of competing ideas. And besides, I'm not really sure who you are - perhaps if we knew more about your - your credentials, your publishing history etc, it might lend more weight to your position. If this was Dembski writing like this, I'd probably be more inclined to work at it. But right now you're just one of many anonymous writers out there competing for my time. And until you can learn to communicate well, I'm not sure I have the bandwidth to consume your content. Just some honest feedback you can take or leave, but I think your readership is going to be inevitably quite tiny if you carry on as you are.woodford
November 13, 2011
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Stu7
What venue? Discoveries in the biological sciences of course.
I follow the scientific literature fairly closely and I don't recall any discoveries in the biological sciences that provide positive evidence for ID to the exclusion of evolutionary mechanisms. Did you have some specific scientific studies in mind?GinoB
November 13, 2011
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as to proving transcendent logic has causal power over the material realm, I submit this for starters:
Finely Tuned Big Bang, Elvis In The Multiverse, and the Schroedinger Equation - Granville Sewell - audio http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4233012
At the 4:00 minute mark of the preceding audio, Dr. Sewell comments on the ‘transcendent’ and ‘constant’ Schroedinger’s Equation;
‘In chapter 2, I talk at some length on the Schroedinger Equation which is called the fundamental equation of chemistry. It’s the equation that governs the behavior of the basic atomic particles subject to the basic forces of physics. This equation is a partial differential equation with a complex valued solution. By complex valued I don’t mean complicated, I mean involving solutions that are complex numbers, a+bi, which is extraordinary that the governing equation, basic equation, of physics, of chemistry, is a partial differential equation with complex valued solutions. There is absolutely no reason why the basic particles should obey such a equation that I can think of except that it results in elements and chemical compounds with extremely rich and useful chemical properties. In fact I don’t think anyone familiar with quantum mechanics would believe that we’re ever going to find a reason why it should obey such an equation, they just do! So we have this basic, really elegant mathematical equation, partial differential equation, which is my field of expertise, that governs the most basic particles of nature and there is absolutely no reason why, anyone knows of, why it does, it just does. British physicist Sir James Jeans said “From the intrinsic evidence of His creation, the great architect of the universe begins to appear as a pure mathematician”, so God is a mathematician to’.
i.e. the Materialist is at a complete, utter, loss to explain why this should be so, whereas the Christian Theist presupposes such ‘transcendent’ control,,,
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. of note; 'the Word' is translated from the Greek word ‘Logos’. Logos happens to be the word from which we derive our modern word ‘Logic’.
bornagain77
November 13, 2011
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GinoB,
Pardon me Jammer, but where is Intelligent Design continually rising? It certainly isn’t in the working scientific community, or in academia, or in the popular press, or on the Internet. AFAICT after ID’s humiliating defeat at Kitzmiller v. Dover ID took an almost vertical nose dive and has been bouncing along the noise floor ever since. Did you have some other venue in mind?
Denial is the first step toward acceptance, congrats ;) What venue? Discoveries in the biological sciences of course. With each new layer peeled away, so too does the burden grow on Darwinian evolution; a load increasing with each new level of codependent complexity revealed.Stu7
November 13, 2011
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eigenstate is it not severely hypocritical of you to use transcendent logic and reasoning to prove to us that they don't truly exist? Or does this glaring flaw in logic escape your reasoning as well?bornagain77
November 13, 2011
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Statements like this reveal the real problem for many atheists/materialist/determinists/physicalists; they have no significant understanding of philosophical warrant and consequences when it comes to worldviews. Collecting stamps/not collecting stamps is not a grounding worldview about the way one sees existential reality. Whether one collects stamps or not doesn’t inform one’s view of the universe, deeply affect how one understands the concepts of morality, purpose, and existential meaning. The choice of being a theist or an atheist, however, necessarily entails these broad, significant, and meaningful consequences. Unlike collecting stamps, atheism is a deeply significant and consequential worldview that cannot be passed off erroneously as a “lack of” a positive worldview commitment.
I think you have cause and effect confused, here. Atheism would be a conclusion produced by an underlying worldview for me, not the worldview itself. It is because The point about not collecting stamps was NOT (!!) to say that the question of the existence of God or gods is trivial as we might suppose stamp collecting to be. The point was something quite different, just that atheism is a negation, and not a positive framework itself. Atheism doesn't entail any particular ethical framework, for example. Denying existence of gods does not commit one to utilitarianism, libertarianism, syncretist, etc., and these are the positive factors that inform the ethical foundations for our views. Importantly, many of them conflict with each other and are mutually incompatible, even if they can all agree to the atheist negation that there are likely no extant gods. In any case, the interpretive grid one adopts, and particularly one's innate trust for one's intuitions, and how immune one's intuitions are from assault by critical review and doubt by the self or others, provides the "lens" for looking at the world in ways that lead, depending on the particulars, to a belief in God or not.
The statement that subjective morality doesn’t necessarily lead to might makes right is just that – an ill considered statement made from someone who hasn’t really thought it out. Because they are moral relativists, and because they don’t believe in “might makes right”, they think moral relativism does not necessarily entail “might makes right”. And so, as illustrated by KF, so much of the atheist/materialist worldview is question-begged and consequence-ignored, hidden behind simple, undefended, unwarranted, unexamined statements.
On moral relativism, might cannot make right in some general sense, BY DEFINITION. Moral relativism, if we just take a very simplistic (but workable for our purposes, here) rendering as "It's morally good to me, because I believe it is", NECESSARILY cannot resolve to "might makes right" as a general conclusion, because that very formulation DENIES SUCH GENERAL CONCLUSIONS. I'm struck by the poetic justice of your words there about "unconsidered", etc. snapping back on you so vividly, here. If Jack believes, as a moral relativist, that "might does NOT make right", and Jill believes, as a moral relativist that "might DOES make right", how would you resolve those, as one who putatively really has "thought it out" on moral relativist terms. Which one prevails, on moral relativism? It's a trick question, but that's the point -- you've not thought this through even superficially! If a thousand moral relativists have one thousand different subjective moral convictions, and as a matter of realpolitik some individuals or other resort to violence and other methods of projecting power over the others, that might doesn't make right on moral relativism. It's just might, and moral relativism, for whatever failings we might identify in it, does not and cannot be implicated as countenancing that in a general way, because moral relativism by definition cannot issue such general assertions.
What they fail to ask themselves are all of the necessary questions about by what grounds are they empowered to pick a not might-makes-right moral system? What is the principle that allows them to object to the moral views and behavior of others, if morality refers to subjective goals and goods? The only principle they have, under subjectivism, is their own personal might (mental, physical, etc.) to do so. If society believes otherwise, then collectively they have the moral right to simply round up and execute those who disagree if they so wish. If the Israelites have the power to commit genocide, then under moral relativism, it is by definition as moral as any other act committed by the individual holding their act to be moral.
On moral relativism, their grounds for objecting to the moral views of others is their subjective convictions about moral values. This is not might that underwrites their authority, but just their mental autonomy, their own subjectivity. As such, it is not and cannot be binding or deontologically normative on others. It's the antithesis of "might makes right". It's "subjectivity eviscerates claims to moral authority through might". On moral relativism, a collective agreement toward genocide manifests DOES NOT justify that agreement because it's a collective. "As moral as any other act" equivocates on "moral", there, as it uses objective semantics for what moral relativists regard to be wholly subjective. It's a divide by zero to say "as moral as", intersubjectively. What "as moral as" means on moral relativism is that "might makes right" CANNOT be a collective or objective moral good, or a moral evil, for that matter, for there ARE no such things. Humans are social beings, so social contracts and political negotiations abound, but on moral relativism, these are practical concerns, not the grounds for any objective moral values.
I think that many of these atheists/materialists are sincere, and are sincerely outraged at what they consider to be past abuses of religion and moral imposition by might of the church, but in their angry zeal to deny and ridicule, they have thrown the necessary baby out with the dirty bathwater. They are left without any foundational principle or premise that can organize their beliefs about science, self, morality, logic, the universe and existence into a rationally consistent, justified, and coherent belief system.
I really think it's a matter of being lazy and complacent in the face of tyranny, slavish obeisance to doctrinaire authority. As a long time Christian, that was regrettably a part of the "right thinking" in my mind, and in my church and Christian circles. God as moral ground is shallow, oppressive, imaginary. But those downsides are often found tolerable by many for the upsides of being simple, authoritarian and passive. Thinking through ethics and morality for humans as natural beings, evolved natural beings without the delusions of an imaginary God as moral lawgiver is messy, complicated, bound up in hard-to-untangle dynamics of man's core evolved psychology and the conflicting urges toward liberty, security, self-gratification, empathy and many other factors. For many, it's just easier to abdicate on all that, and submit to the practical benefits of the delusion -- God said it, I believe it, and that's that.
They are content to simply not examine their own worldviews back to premise and forward to conclusion, and throw ridicule and dismissal at those who are willing to do so and who challenge them to do so. KF points this issue out repeatedly, challenging them to justify their positions via logic back to premise and forward to conclusion. Instead of accepting the challenge and working to explain how their worldview is founded upon sound premise and reaches rational conclusions, they are content to sit on the sideline and meet such challenges with ridicule and denial.
It's a self-serving challenge, and says: Atheists, please now justify your moral frameworks in terms of moral values that stem from a God, a moral lawgiver, a moral dogma. It'd be humorous if it wasn't so pervasive and prone to being taken seriously so many others. The very core of what you understand to be "grounds" for moral law or deontology is bogus, unwarranted. Yet, this is the cage you (apparently) and kairosfocus are stuck in. When William Lane Craig gets up and worries about the lack of "objective moral values" without God, it's disingenuous, because William Lane Craig defines "objective moral values" in a self-serving, ad-hoc way, as just those "moral values which are given to us by a creator God". Well, on those terms, of COURSE it's true, it's just tautologically true by the way Craig sets it up to serve his own ends. If you point to evolved human nature as an objective set of facts (and man's physiology and evolved psychology are facts on the ground that are objective -- they are what they are regardless of the will or mind of anyone here or anywhere), that ground human intuitions about fairness, justice, empathy, dignity, etc., Craig isn't interested. He's not looking for objective grounding for moral value, he's looking for a God to worship. I haven't heard enough from you to make any judgments, but that kind of "Chump Test" from Craig is fairly pandemic in Christian circles, and is a well established trope on this blog. I'm quite happy to be challenged to examine and defend my views, but I'm not such a chump to fall for "Please ground your morals as an atheist in my God-centric self-serving notions of moral grounding". It is Christians' inability or unwillingness to think, even provisionally, outside of this self-serving box that stunts the discussion, and reduces it to just trolling for chumps by Christian apologists.eigenstate
November 13, 2011
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Quotes of note:
“Atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning...” CS Lewis – Mere Christianity "But then with me the horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man’s mind, which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey’s mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?" - Charles Darwin - Letter To William Graham - July 3, 1881 “It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms.” J. B. S. Haldane ["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209.
In realizing atheism's failure to provide a foundation for either objective morality or scientific inquiry, it is interesting to point out that Christianity was necessary for the sustained development of modern science:
Jerry Coyne on the Scientific Method and Religion - Michael Egnor - June 2011 Excerpt: The scientific method -- the empirical systematic theory-based study of nature -- has nothing to do with some religious inspirations -- Animism, Paganism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Shintoism, Islam, and, well, atheism. The scientific method has everything to do with Christian (and Jewish) inspiration. Judeo-Christian culture is the only culture that has given rise to organized theoretical science. Many cultures (e.g. China) have produced excellent technology and engineering, but only Christian culture has given rise to a conceptual understanding of nature. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/06/jerry_coyne_on_the_scientific_047431.html Christianity Gave Birth To Each Scientific Discipline - Dr. Henry Fritz Schaefer - video http://vimeo.com/16523153 Christianity and The Birth of Science - Michael Bumbulis, Ph.D Excerpt: Furthermore, many of these founders of science lived at a time when others publicly expressed views quite contrary to Christianity - Hume, Hobbes, Darwin, etc. When Boyle argues against Hobbe's materialism or Kelvin argues against Darwin's assumptions, you don't have a case of "closet atheists." http://ldolphin.org/bumbulis/ Science and Theism: Concord, not Conflict* – Robert C. Koons IV. The Dependency of Science Upon Theism (Page 21) Excerpt: Far from undermining the credibility of theism, the remarkable success of science in modern times is a remarkable confirmation of the truth of theism. It was from the perspective of Judeo-Christian theism—and from the perspective alone—that it was predictable that science would have succeeded as it has. Without the faith in the rational intelligibility of the world and the divine vocation of human beings to master it, modern science would never have been possible, and, even today, the continued rationality of the enterprise of science depends on convictions that can be reasonably grounded only in theistic metaphysics. http://www.robkoons.net/media/69b0dd04a9d2fc6dffff80b3ffffd524.pdf
Moreover, the continued success of science can be argued to be dependent on Christianity
Bruce Charlton's Miscellany - October 2011 Excerpt: I had discovered that over the same period of the twentieth century that the US had risen to scientific eminence it had undergone a significant Christian revival. ,,,The point I put to (Richard) Dawkins was that the USA was simultaneously by-far the most dominant scientific nation in the world (I knew this from various scientometic studies I was doing at the time) and by-far the most religious (Christian) nation in the world. How, I asked, could this be - if Christianity was culturally inimical to science? http://charltonteaching.blogspot.com/2011/10/meeting-richard-dawkins-and-his-wife.html
The following video is far more direct in establishing the 'spiritual' link to man's ability to learn new information (make scientific discoveries), in that it shows that the SAT (Scholastic Aptitude Test) scores for students showed a steady decline, for seventeen years from the top spot, or near the top spot, in the world, after the removal of prayer from the public classroom by the Supreme Court in 1963. Whereas the SAT scores for private Christian schools have consistently remained at the top, or near the top, spot in the world:
The Real Reason American Education Has Slipped – David Barton – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4318930
You can see that dramatic difference, of the SAT scores for private Christian schools compared to public schools, at this following site;
Aliso Viejo Christian School – SAT 10 Comparison Report http://www.alisoviejochristianschool.org/sat_10.html
I truly invite atheists to look past their petty prejudices against Christianity in particular, and against Theism in general, and honestly consider these points I've raised against atheism. Please, ask yourself, 'why should these points be so if atheism is actually true?' i.e. Why can't science, morality, or truth, be grounded in atheism?,, For if you can't honestly answer these points I've raised (and you can't), then this makes atheism/materialism untrue as a philosophy/worldview. And if you, as a atheists, are living your life as if atheism were true then you are in fact 'living a lie'.,,, And even though atheists surely could list the faults of Christians all day long (as I could list faults of atheists all day long) Is it worth 'living a lie' just because atheists find the behavior of some (many?) Christians/Theists objectionable, and even hypocritical? Should you not seek out the truth above all else regardless of, and even in spite of, the behavior of other people?
John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. I Turn To You- Selah (with lyrics) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zI5i1qSg1mE
bornagain77
November 13, 2011
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eigenstate, you act as if you are being reasonable but you do not even realize that atheists cannot even ground the practice of 'doing science' within their atheistic worldview in the first place: This following site is a easy to use, and understand, interactive website that takes the user through what is termed 'Presuppositional apologetics'. The website clearly shows that our use of the laws of logic, mathematics, science and morality cannot be accounted for unless we believe in a God who guarantees our perceptions and reasoning are trustworthy in the first place.
Presuppositional Apologetics - easy to use interactive website http://www.proofthatgodexists.org/index.php Random Chaos vs. Uniformity Of Nature - Presuppositional Apologetics - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/6853139 RC Sproul Interviews Stephen Meyer - (Epistemology) Presuppositional Apologetics (and Scientific Argument for ID from presently acting cause known to produce effect in question) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CM5J2zTBIzI
Materialism simply dissolves into absurdity when pushed to extremes and certainly offers no guarantee to us for believing our perceptions and reasoning within science are trustworthy in the first place:
BRUCE GORDON: Hawking's irrational arguments - October 2010 Excerpt: For instance, we find multiverse cosmologists debating the "Boltzmann Brain" problem: In the most "reasonable" (materialistic) models for a multiverse, it is immeasurably more likely that our consciousness is associated with a brain that has spontaneously fluctuated into existence in the quantum vacuum than it is that we have parents and exist in an orderly universe with a 13.7 billion-year history. This is absurd. The multiverse hypothesis is therefore falsified because it renders false what we know to be true about ourselves. Clearly, embracing the multiverse idea entails a nihilistic irrationality that destroys the very possibility of science. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/oct/1/hawking-irrational-arguments/ Should You Trust the Monkey Mind? - Joe Carter Excerpt: Evolutionary naturalism assumes that our noetic equipment developed as it did because it had some survival value or reproductive advantage. Unguided evolution does not select for belief except insofar as the belief improves the chances of survival. The truth of a belief is irrelevant, as long as it produces an evolutionary advantage. This equipment could have developed at least four different kinds of belief that are compatible with evolutionary naturalism, none of which necessarily produce true and trustworthy cognitive faculties. http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/2010/09/should-you-trust-the-monkey-mind What is the Evolutionary Argument Against Naturalism? ('inconsistent identity' of cause leads to failure of absolute truth claims for materialists) (Alvin Plantinga) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yNg4MJgTFw
The following interview is sadly comical as a evolutionary psychologist realizes that neo-Darwinism can offer no guarantee that our faculties of reasoning will correspond to the truth, not even for the truth he is giving in the interview, (which begs the question of how was he able to come to that particular truthful realization, in the first place, if neo-Darwinian evolution were actually true?);
Evolutionary guru: Don't believe everything you think - October 2011 Interviewer: You could be deceiving yourself about that.(?) Evolutionary Psychologist: Absolutely. http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21128335.300-evolutionary-guru-dont-believe-everything-you-think.html
Here a Darwinian Psychologist has a moment of honesty facing the 'hard problem' of consciousness;
Darwinian Psychologist David Barash Admits the Seeming Insolubility of Science's "Hardest Problem" Excerpt: 'But the hard problem of consciousness is so hard that I can't even imagine what kind of empirical findings would satisfactorily solve it. In fact, I don't even know what kind of discovery would get us to first base, not to mention a home run.' David Barash - Materialist/Atheist Darwinian Psychologist http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/11/post_33052491.html
bornagain77
November 13, 2011
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Part of the problem we face her is simply the lack of significant, honest debate on the side of the atheists/materialists. They always go at it from the perspective of attacking and ridiculing the moral views of theists, but never attempt to defend their own views. One wonders if they've applied any introspective, rational analysis to their own moral views. What are their basic premises/principles? How do they justify them? What gives them the grounding to criticize the moral values or decisions of others? What gives them the right to question consensus moral values, or question those which are offered from authority? But, all of this leads to even deeper existential considerations. Materialists argue as if one can willfully discern true statements from false, but upon what premise does that assumption lie? If humans thought is nothing more than an effect driven by physics, and the appearance of any "goal" or "purpose" or "free will choice" is an illusory corresponding effect, then they have no means by which to claim that they, or their debate opponents, will discern or believe anything other than what brute physics commands. Thus, the "feeling" that something is true is nothing more than a physics-generated sensation. Confidence in one's argument and logic is nothing more than an associated sensation, which can accompany even the most untrue and baseless claims. One's perspective of logic and proper inference to conclusion can - once again - just be the effect of molecules bumping together, whether one is saying something actually true, or barking like a dog in an asylum. Materialsts, determinists and atheists must live, act, and think as if they have free will; as if morality matters and is not entirely relative and subjective; as if true statements can be deliberately discerned, and as if artifacts of design can be discerned from those of nature; but argue in contradiction to how they must live, must act, and must think. The very form and process of their arguments directly contradict the content. To be outraged and argue as if it is objectively, universally wrong to (apparently) defend a case of genocide is to implicate that an objective standard exists by which to judge it. The argument carries with it an implicit expectation that, regardless of biological and physical cause to the contrary, their listener can independently discern the supposed truth of their argument. They expect their responses to be easily discerned from all potential natural sources and recognized as the product of intelligent design. It really is a rather remarkable example of intellectual blindness (to be charitable).William J Murray
November 13, 2011
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