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Thoughts on the soul

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In the recent discussion on causation, I noted:

KF, 72: >>As I think about cause, I am led to ponder a current discussion that echoes Plato on the self-moved, ensouled agent with genuine freedom. Without endorsing wider context, John C Wright draws out a key point that we may ponder as a nugget drawn from a stream-bed:

Men have souls [–> that which gives us self-moved, responsible, rational freedom].

Once one accepts that premise, one must accept the conclusions that follow from it: creatures with souls are not evolved from slime, since spirit, being simple and eternal, cannot be brought into being by matter, which is compound, subject to change and decay, nor brought into being by any blind natural process; therefore, instead, spirit must be created in a divine image, with the faculties of reason and conscience and creativity. Living spirits like man hence are responsible each man for his own action, hence by right are worthy of the fruits each man of his own labor. Since this right comes not from the state, it should not in justice be abrogated by the state, for the right to property is sacrosanct, and, by the same logic, so too are all rights to life and liberty and to the freedom of the conscience. [–> I add, echoing the US DoI of 1776: the state enters, with the consent of the governed, as a common means to safeguard the civil peace of justice; that due balance of rights, freedoms and duties in community which cannot be reliably pursued otherwise — in which context, it has a legitimate power of moderate, prudent taxation as a cost-effective means to fund the defence and reasonable enhancement of the common good.]

Nor can a created being overstep the authority created into him by his creator, that is, Man cannot play God; which means he cannot slay innocent children in the womb nor murder the sick and elderly and useless gobblers of bread, nor breed men like dogsbreeders breeding dogs, nor commit suicide oneself, not even the slow suicide of addiction to self-destructive substances and ideas.

If man is created by divinity, it is not in his choice to demean and trample the image of God in himself nor his neighbor: modesty, honesty, humility, patience, prudence and temperance become sacrosanct.

Even such seemingly unrelated matters, such as the low dirt of modern speech, the crass ugliness of modern art, the vainglorious ignorance of modern schooling, become offenses against this divine image seen in man . . . .

If men have souls, what does skin hue matter?

It is that lost vision that is the context for the present endarkening of our civilisation, in which what we imagine is light is instead such darkness that we often imagine that light is darkness, accusing him who is Reason Himself and Goodness Himself of being an arbitrary would-be cosmological tyrant. That is why something as out of kilter as Euthyphro’s dilemma could even seem plausible. That seeming plausibility is a diagnostic sign of our soul-sickness.>>

I think, this is significant enough to headline. END

Comments
Ed George states,
"nobody has answered the question about "when this “soul” is imparted to the human being(?)."
Actually,
Ephesians 1: 1-4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. Jeremiah 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”
And this follows logically from first principles in that, as Karsten Pultz recently pointed out, the Idea for a created entity must necessarily precede the created entity.
Idea for a created entity must necessarily precede the created entity - examples https://uncommondescent.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/image-1-1024x645.png
But Ed George may ask, "But hey, I don't believe in God so why should I afford a human embryo any more respect than "any other eukaryotic cell?" Well, the insurmountable problem for Ed George is that, in his rejection of God, besides forsaking objective morality altogether, he has also forsaken any claim that life has any objective meaning, value, or purpose whatsoever. In atheism, any value or meaning that one may impart to life must necessarily be of one's own making and therefore illusory:
Study: Atheists Find Meaning In Life By Inventing Fairy Tales - Richard Weikart MARCH 29, 2018 Excerpt: However, there is a problem with this finding. The survey admitted the meaning that atheists and non-religious people found in their lives is entirely self-invented. According to the survey, they embraced the position: “Life is only meaningful if you provide the meaning yourself.” Thus, when religious people say non-religious people have no basis for finding meaning in life, and when non-religious people object, saying they do indeed find meaning in life, they are not talking about the same thing. If one can find meaning in life by creating one’s own meaning, then one is only “finding” the product of one’s own imagination. One has complete freedom to invent whatever meaning one wants. This makes “meaning” on par with myths and fairy tales. It may make the non-religious person feel good, but it has no objective existence. http://thefederalist.com/2018/03/29/study-atheists-find-meaning-life-inventing-fairy-tales/
There simply is no way to derive any true value or meaning for life without God. Just how does one go about deriving any true meaning and value for a person from a Atheistic worldview that maintains any meaning for life is self invented and therefore illusory? In fact, under Atheistic materialism, the 'true' resale value of all your material constituents is about one dollar?
How much is my body worth? Excerpt: The U.S. Bureau of Chemistry and Soils invested many a hard-earned tax dollar in calculating the chemical and mineral composition of the human body,,,,Together, all of the above (chemicals and minerals) amounts to less than one dollar! http://www.coolquiz.com/trivia/explain/docs/worth.asp
I would like to think, despite the atheistic atrocities of abortion, euthanasia, Nazism and Communism, that most people intuitively know that they are worth far more value than a dollar?!? Atheists, in their rejection of God, simply have no way to derive any true meaning or value for human life. Whereas in Theism, particularly in Christianity, there is no trouble whatsoever figuring out how much humans are really worth since infinite Almighty God himself, through Jesus Christ, redeemed our souls: Thus our souls, i.e. our very lives, are of infinite worth!
Mark 8:36-37 What does it profit a man to gain the whole world, yet forfeit his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul?…
Moreover, not that empirical evidence ever really matters to Ed George, but there is also the little fact that a human embryo, in terms of size, is also now found to exist at 10^-4 meters, which 'just so happens' to be the ‘geometric mean’ of all possible sizes of our physical reality.
The Scale of The Universe - Part 2 - interactive graph (recently updated in 2012 with cool features) http://htwins.net/scale2/scale2.swf?bordercolor=white
Going even further, Dr. William Demski, in the following graph, gives a more precise figure of 8.8 x 10^26 M for the observable universe’s diameter, and 1.6 x 10^-35 for the Planck length which is the smallest length possible.
Magnifying the Universe https://academicinfluence.com/ie/mtu/
The preceding interactive graphs point out that the smallest scale visible to the human eye (as well as a human egg) is at 10^-4 meters, which 'just so happens' to be the ‘geometric mean’ of all possible sizes of our physical reality. As far as the exponential graph itself is concerned’ 10^-4 is, exponentially, right in the middle of 10^-35 meters, which is the smallest possible unit of length, which is Planck length, and 10^27 meters, which is the largest possible unit of 'observable' length since space-time was created in the Big Bang, which is the diameter of the universe. Thus not only does Ed George, since he has rejected God, not have any way of deriving any true value or meaning for life in the first place, Ed George is also at a complete loss as to explain exactly why a human egg would be found to reside at the geometric mean of all possible sizes in the universe. In defending human embryos, it is also interesting to point out that "Life Begins With a Dramatic Burst of Light"
Life Begins With a Dramatic Burst of Light – Cornelius Hunter – April 30, 2016 Excerpt: As one newspaper put it, “Bright flash of light marks incredible moment life begins when sperm meets egg.” And: “Human life begins in bright flash of light as a sperm meets an egg, scientists have shown for the first time, after capturing the astonishing “fireworks” on film.” One of the researchers described the burst of light as “breathtaking.” http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2016/04/life-begins-with-dramatic-burst-of-light.html
Thus in conclusion, since Ed George's atheistic worldview winds up in catastrophic epistemological failure in regards to deriving any true meaning and value for human life, (value and meaning for life are in fact 'illusory' in atheism), then it should be rejected outright prior to us even trying to ascertain true value and meaning for life. Moreover, it not only that the Theistic worldview is the only philosophically coherent worldview there is in regards to deriving any true meaning and value for human life, but empirical science itself, via the human embryo being at the geometric mean of the universe, backs up the Christian's claim that the human embryo is of far more importance in the grand scheme of things than the Atheist, who advocates for abortion, is inclined to believe beforehand. If only Ed George had an ounce of integrity in his investigation of the evidence, then he would, at least, honestly admit this. But alas, I've just about given up all hope that Ed George will ever be honest. He seems determined to fight against God no matter what the evidence says to the contrary. Sad! It seems we care more for Ed's soul than he himself does for his own soul. But anyways, for the rest of us, there is this promise from God...
Jeremiah 29:11 For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the LORD, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.
bornagain77
January 24, 2020
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In the grand scheme of Evolution: - Where does abortion fit in?Truthfreedom
January 24, 2020
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ET, 38: Successful birth is down to at least 4 - 5 months now, and there was recent discussion of the child in the womb manifesting pain responses at maybe 12 weeks. But in the end, such is a side issue; there is one clear point of beginning for a human life, conception (and not as redefined, 7 - 9 days later, implantation). There is no good reason to look at superficial characteristics (it looks like a little ball of cells etc) or worse recapitulationism (it's ascending the evolutionary ladder to become human, see the gills of a fish etc) and try to dehumanise the early life of the child in the womb. Where, we know separately, that computation on a substrate is a dynamic-stochastic process, not one driven by rational, conscience-informed insight. We infer from the underlying nature of being, as we understand it, that if Men are mortal and Socrates is a case of being a man, then Socrates has the said core characteristic, mortality. It is not that signals holding the analogue of or encoded for the two premises somehow cause a circuit -- per dynamic-stochastic chains of cause-effect bonds -- to produce the output holding the analogue of or encoded for the conclusion. No, on deep logic of being we understand that particular members of a class exhibit its core characteristics connected to its identity as a class. The archetypes are present in the case; archetypes, though abstract, are real. For further example, Socrates also exhibits being a unit, he is an individual. We cannot escape this, even, oh our circuits deliver reliable outcomes [on logical reasoning, that's a laugh, errors and fallacies are exceedingly common, reflecting subtly warped thinking or even failure to think] so hey presto we should trust the algorithms, functional organisation, information bases and management of noise etc is rooted in logical inferences and its roots in the nature of being and distinct identity. Logic or responsible rationality governed by inescapable duties to truth, right reason, prudence, sound conscience, fairness, justice etc are prior to science, Mathematics, empirical investigations, experience, observation and reflection, etc. In short, we are seeing what it means for us to be living, rational, knowing souls in action. There simply is a plus factor at work that transcends GIGO-limited computational substrates, even wetware substrates. KFkairosfocus
January 24, 2020
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Acartia Eddie:
We are talking about whether a computational substrate, such as the brain, can produce consciousness.
There isn't any evidence for that. There isn't any evidence that materialistic processes can produce a brain. You have nothing but denial and nay-saying.
You can claim that the “soul” is independent of this, but you have yet to provide any compelling evidence for it.
And all you have is your continued denial and nay-saying. You don't even appear to understand what evidence is.ET
January 23, 2020
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Acartia Eddie:
I would argue that the defining characteristic of humanity is our consciousness.
And yet other organisms are also conscious.
Calling it an immortal soul is just wishful thinking.
And you know all about that as all you have is wishful thinking.
But this still does not answer the question about when this “soul” is imparted in the human. Is it at conception, sometime thereafter, or not until we are born?
Before birth.
That is critical to concluding that the fertilized cell is owed our respect and protection.
Only in your simple mind.
If it does not have a “soul” then it is no different than any other eukaryotic cell.
Only in your simple mind.ET
January 23, 2020
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Ed George
I would argue that the defining characteristic of humanity is our consciousness.
That's one aspect of the soul, certainly. From self-aware conscisousness we are able to obtain knowledge. We recognize the difference between the object known and the knower. The knower is our self. But that's the rational process. So, consciousness is really together with the rational power. From consciousness, we recognize the First Principles of Reason - first the Law of Identity. We recognize, we as a self-person, exist, and that is different from the rest of existence. Thus, we have logic and reason.
And all we can say about it is that we don’t know how it develops but we do know that there is no evidence that it exists before we are born (or, it can be argued, before a certain stage of development) or after we die. Calling it an immortal soul is just wishful thinking.
From a scientific-materialist viewpoint, we cannot have any evidence that consciousness exists, since we must use consciousness to evaluate anything. We would need some means, independent of a conscious mind, to determine if a conscious mind exists. Otherwise, it's a circular argument. "There is material evidence that consciousness exists because I can observe it with my conscious mind". That's clearly illogical. We have to accept that consciousness exists since we possess it, but it cannot be demonstrated. To then insist that we need more empirical evidence of consciousness in other beings than we have for our own would be equally false.
But this still does not answer the question about when this “soul” is imparted in the human. Is it at conception, sometime thereafter, or not until we are born?
It is imparted at conception with the emergence of a human person at that point..
Another related question is, if I cloned myself (not beyond current scientific possibility), is my close fully human? Does it have a soul? If it has a soul, where did it come from?
Assuming your clone has rational powers, a sense of identity, a moral conscience and the capability for abstract, creative thought -- then yes, this is a rational soul. There would be some kind of moment of ensoulment for that particular event. This kind of thing was a big challenge through history as some more advanced cultures encountered less advanced. One group was considered to be non-human, and so lost rights. Bartolomeo de Las Casas brought this issue to light as European explorers encountered native American tribes. The problem was solved via theological reasoning. A human has sacred value because he or she is created by God, who is all good and who has great love for humans. So, we are required to respect and care for other humans. Other philosophies and religions could see it another way. The Aztecs, for example, believed in human sacrifice. A human being had value, but not so much that enemies couldn't be sacrificed to their gods. They also believed in cannibalism to an extent. In a world without God as the creator, for example, if people believed that clones were the products of humanity. I don't know what prevents the belief that a clone could be a product, owned by the clonee as a pet or animal.Silver Asiatic
January 23, 2020
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KF
EG, have you ever got hands dirty working with the hardware level of a digital or analogue computer?
Yes I have. But that is irrelevant. We are talking about whether a computational substrate, such as the brain, can produce consciousness. All we can say at this point is that the brain appears to be absolutely necessary. Damage the brain, chemically alter it or stimulate it with electricity, and we can alter, suspend or destroy consciousness. You can claim that the “soul” is independent of this, but you have yet to provide any compelling evidence for it. The best you have is NDE, which can be reproduced chemically.Ed George
January 23, 2020
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EG, you have simply repeatedly side stepped the answer on ensoulment that is on the table. Manifestly, as rational, responsible, significantly free creatures, we transcend what blind chance and mechanical necessity can account for; on pain of self-referential absurdity as say Haldane pointed out. We are living, rational, responsible, significantly free souls. The manifest point of origin of a human being is conception, so we have every epistemic right to hold that this includes all of our being. It is those who wish to object who face the proper burden of warranting their case; implicit, long past sell-by date inferences on ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny or the like are nowhere near good enough. Especially, when what is on the table is the at will slaughter of our living posterity in the womb at a rate of about a million more per week. With that on the table, simply the reasonable possibility that we deal with more than an empty blob of tissue parasiting on a host [this language echoes claims that have been made by abortion advocates] is enough to shift the burden of warrant. KFkairosfocus
January 23, 2020
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EG, have you ever got hands dirty working with the hardware level of a digital or analogue computer? The key element for the latter is an integrator; let's take the mechanical version, a ball in rolling contact with a disk so that its position relative centre accumulates angular position at a variable rate. The heart of a digital computer is an arithmetic and logic unit, pivoting on adder circuits. The heart of that, is an X-OR gate linked to an OR gate, both being amplifiers with suitable connexions to create boolean algebra functions. Neural networks are essentially weighted sum amplifiers triggering outputs at thresholds. All of these are dynamic-stochastic essentially blind processes which are not free to reason or weigh moral balances. They simply carry out signal processing based on organisation and programming. (And don't get me started on your need to account for the FSCO/I to allegedly build extremely complex cases and program them through glorified lucky noise selected for trial-error success in a context where FSCO/I islands of function will be deeply isolated in seas of non function in configuration spaces.) The common principle is GIGO, these are functioning blindly and will be no more reliable than their organisation and programming; and, they are inherently not free or responsible. In sum, we are here dealing with something categorically different from what is needed to address responsible, rational freedom. That you seem willing to infer that blind chance and/or mechanical necessity account adequately for responsible, rational freedom and self-moved agency simply tells us the absurdities of evolutionary materialistic scientism and its ideological fellow travellers. Perhaps, it will help you, to note that J B S Haldane, cited above, was a co-founder of the neo-darwinian synthesis. KF PS: Let me cite Reppert, for a further key summary:
. . . let us suppose that brain state A [--> notice, state of a wetware, electrochemically operated computational substrate], which is token identical to the thought that all men are mortal, and brain state B, which is token identical to the thought that Socrates is a man, together cause the belief [--> concious, perceptual state or disposition] that Socrates is mortal. It isn’t enough for rational inference that these events be those beliefs, it is also necessary that the causal transaction be in virtue of the content of those thoughts . . . [But] if naturalism is true, then the propositional content is irrelevant to the causal transaction that produces the conclusion, and [so] we do not have a case of rational inference. In rational inference, as Lewis puts it, one thought causes another thought not by being, but by being seen to be, the ground for it. But causal transactions in the brain occur in virtue of the brain’s being in a particular type of state that is relevant to physical causal transactions.
kairosfocus
January 23, 2020
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KF
EG, our conscious, responsible, conscience guided rational freedom is precisely what a computational substrate can never attain to and marks how we are self moved, initiating creatures who are genuine first causes.
This (the bolded) has not been proven. All we can claim is that a man-made computational substrate has not attained this.
So, absent demonstrable proof to the contrary, our responsibility is to respect the ensouled nature of the human being, from his or her earliest moments.
But nobody has answered the question about when this "soul" is imparted to the human being. That is critical to concluding that the fertilized cell is owed our respect and protection. If it does not have a "soul" then it is no different than any other eukaryotic cell.Ed George
January 23, 2020
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EG, our conscious, responsible, conscience guided rational freedom is precisely what a computational substrate can never attain to and marks how we are self moved, initiating creatures who are genuine first causes. Without such, we lack the freedom to be rational, which leads to the self-referential incoherence J B S Haldane pointed out, as was cited twice above. Further to this, you have simply ignored the substantial matters on the table and seem intent on repeating assertions, questions or even demands as though such were decisive. The opposite is the case, the rational responsible freedom implicit in your argument is precisely the direct reason why we know there is in the core of our being what transcends the sort of dynamic-stochastic non-rational entity that a computational substrate manifests. Likewise, there is precisely one obvious, empirically supported point of becoming human: conception, indeed half the time the child in the womb is of opposite sex to his mother. So, absent demonstrable proof to the contrary, our responsibility is to respect the ensouled nature of the human being, from his or her earliest moments. Where, lastly, it is plain that one cannot isolate consciousness [and, presumably, linked behaviour] as though that decided the matter, indeed, to the onlooker, consciousness is invisible and unobservable, it is inferred or accepted on testimony. That, is the zombie problem. So, what empirical, observable proof have you to offer that there is a conscious, responsible, rational, rights bearing creature standing behind the string of comments from "you" above? KFkairosfocus
January 23, 2020
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SA
The defining characteristic of humanity is the rational soul.
I would argue that the defining characteristic of humanity is our consciousness. And all we can say about it is that we don't know how it develops but we do know that there is no evidence that it exists before we are born (or, it can be argued, before a certain stage of development) or after we die. Calling it an immortal soul is just wishful thinking.
The human soul is not potentially human, but is actually human. It was made actual from a Being that preceeded it, which has the power to actualize the potential of a soul.
But this still does not answer the question about when this "soul" is imparted in the human. Is it at conception, sometime thereafter, or not until we are born? Another related question is, if I cloned myself (not beyond current scientific possibility), is my close fully human? Does it have a soul? If it has a soul, where did it come from?Ed George
January 23, 2020
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Kf @27,
Do we see how we have come to the point of enabling the worst holocaust in history? 800+ million unborn in 40+ years, nearly another million per week.
The problem is the typical secular progressive wants to have it both ways. On one hand, they argue that a woman has a right to choose which of course, is a euphemistic way to say that a woman has a universal right to abortion. (Notice that they can’t even be open and honest about what they are really arguing about.) On the other hand, their so-called rights have no basis because they are made up whole cloth. How am I or anyone else obligated to recognize some else’s made up rights? Consider a parallel case which is more than ironic: PETA’s effort to ban leather because it involves slaughtering “innocent” animals. Am I obligated to support such a ban because someone else believes it’s immoral to kill animals? To compound the problem, a lot of the people who support abortion or believe that animals have rights (sometimes they’re the very same people) are also moral subjectivists and relativists. How am I or anyone else obligated to recognize and respect a moral belief that is completely subjective, arbitrary and opinion based.john_a_designer
January 23, 2020
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Acartia Eddie:
I think that it is more accurate that the potential for human life begins at conception.
That's just stupid talk. Science has determined that life begins @ conception. And if it the result of a male human mating with a female human, then that life is tat of a human.
Where there is disagreement it is around when human rights begin.
They should begin at the starting point. Anything else is arbitrary and contrived.
I don’t believe that a “soul” exists, at least not in the way I assume that you do.
And we don't think that you exist, at least not in the way we assume that you do.ET
January 23, 2020
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Human nature is the essence of what it is to be human. The defining characteristic of humanity is the rational soul. Artistotle teaches that man is a "rational animal". Like an animal, but separated because of the power of reason. So, where there is human life, there is the human soul. Through hylomorphism, the soul is infused into matter and human nature is created, at the beginning of life. As Aquinas teaches:
the human soul is sometimes in a state of potentiality to the act of intelligence—acquires its knowledge somehow from things—and thus has various power ... http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1090.htm
The human soul is not potentially human, but is actually human. It was made actual from a Being that preceeded it, which has the power to actualize the potential of a soul. As Aquinas says, however, the soul has potentiality to intelligence - the intellect can grow in knowledge. Also, the soul can grow in virtue or be damaged by vice or sin. As we make conscious decisions, we choose good or evil actions, we choose truth or lies. The intellect can be made better by adherence and appreciation of truth, or made corrupt by lies and evil. Intellectual virtues are habits of the soul. So, we can improve the quality of our soul each day, although the simple existence of any human soul has infinite good value in itself.Silver Asiatic
January 23, 2020
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Do we see how we have come to the point of enabling the worst holocaust in history? 800+ million unborn in 40+ years, nearly another million per week.kairosfocus
January 23, 2020
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JAD, inherently, computational substrates cannot account for self-moved RRF, lets use SM-RRF. The substrate is dynamic-stochastic and inanimate . . . ANIMA is of course, soul in Latin, not rational, volitional, responsible, free. KF PS: I have long since put the two tier controller, Smith Model as a context to discuss embodied ensoulment. The cybernetic loop is informational, feedback laced and computational, but it is governed, which is where SM-RRF enters.kairosfocus
January 23, 2020
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EG, you have no good reason for inserting "potential," it is little more than a rhetorical gambit enabling of holocaust and driven by the influence of evolutionary materialistic scientism. which, is self-referentially absurd, undermining rational, responsible freedom so mind, warrant, knowledge. We can set it aside. With those blinkers off we instantly see that computational substrates cannot -- not merely do not -- account for rational, responsible freedom. In other terms, if your argument "works," it defeats itself. So, we have every reason to recognise that rational responsible freedom [RRF] reflects something beyond even wetware computational substrates; something we rightly speak of as mind or soul. In that context, the potential in the newly conceived child in utero is not to become human, but to develop appropriately as a human being, from stage to stage of life. In which context, we must recognise the inherent dignity and worth, thus duties of care thence, by mirror image, rights. KFkairosfocus
January 23, 2020
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The conscious mind is something that “materialistic science” cannot explain. Materialists try to argue that mind and consciousness somehow emerge from mindless matter but they never really explain how. The goal of science is, after all, basically explaining how. If materialists can’t explain HOW, the belief that consciousness is just some kind of emergent property is just an unwarranted assumption.john_a_designer
January 23, 2020
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BO'H: Pardon, but your scientism is showing. The evidence of our conscious, rational, responsible, conscience guided inner life is in fact antecedent to and foundational for doing science, or even Philosophy, Mathematics, Computer Science and Statistics. As, J B S Haldane pointed out almost a century ago, as was cited above. Let me repeat, for convenience:
"It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” ["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209. Cf. here on (and esp here) on the self-refutation by self-falsifying self referential incoherence and on linked amorality.]
To put it simply, computational substrates are inherently non-ratonal. They are dynamic-stochastic entities that move from input to output blindly, as they are organised and programmed. That is exactly what rationality cannot be. If, it is to have any credibility or authority. So, your implied view is self referentially absurd, undermining rationality itself. That undermining then opens the door to the sort of nihilism and cynicism we see all around. Plato, c 360 BC, had more to say on the matter, as was highlighted at comment 4 (which you should have engaged on the merits):
Athenian Stranger. . . . when one thing changes another, and that another, of such will there be any primary changing element? How can a thing which is moved by another ever be the beginning of change? Impossible. But when the self-moved changes other, and that again other, and thus thousands upon tens of thousands of bodies are set in motion, must not the beginning of all this motion be the change of the self-moving principle? . . . . self-motion being the origin of all motions, and the first which arises among things at rest as well as among things in motion, is the eldest and mightiest principle of change, and that which is changed by another and yet moves other is second. [ . . . .] Ath. If we were to see this power existing in any earthy, watery, or fiery substance, simple or compound-how should we describe it? Cleinias of Crete. You mean to ask whether we should call such a self-moving power life? Ath. I do. Cle. Certainly we should. Ath. And when we see soul in anything, must we not do the same-must we not admit that this is life? [ . . . . ] Cle. You mean to say that the essence which is defined as the self-moved is the same with that which has the name soul? Ath. Yes; and if this is true, do we still maintain that there is anything wanting in the proof that the soul is the first origin and moving power of all that is, or has become, or will be, and their contraries, when she has been clearly shown to be the source of change and motion in all things? Cle. Certainly not; the soul as being the source of motion, has been most satisfactorily shown to be the oldest of all things. Ath. And is not that motion which is produced in another, by reason of another, but never has any self-moving power at all, being in truth the change of an inanimate body [--> including, today, computational substrates], to be reckoned second, or by any lower number which you may prefer? Cle. Exactly. Ath. Then we are right, and speak the most perfect and absolute truth, when we say that the soul is prior to the body, and that the body is second and comes afterwards, and is born to obey the soul, which is the ruler? [ . . . . ] Ath. If, my friend, we say that the whole path and movement of heaven, and of all that is therein, is by nature akin to the movement and revolution and calculation of mind, and proceeds by kindred laws, then, as is plain, we must say that the best soul takes care of the world and guides it along the good path. [ --> Plato here explicitly sets up an inference to design (by a good soul) from the intelligible order of the cosmos.]
Notice, is not that motion which is produced in another, by reason of another, but never has any self-moving power at all, being in truth the change of an inanimate body [--> including, today, computational substrates] Our rational animality, rational ensoulment tells the quality of souls we are in our core being; the embodiment is not entrapment in dirt, but it does not displace that we are self-moved agents capable of being initiatory causes. Such, as when I use my arms and hands to type this comment. Then, we note that we do know, scientifically, when new life begins, at conception. We also know from Q-mech that at micro scale, influences can act on matter; as say the Casimir effect illustrates in a crude way. So, there is no further credibility to the notion of an autonomous, wholly mechanical world. In that context, there is no good reason to dehumanise the unborn child in utero. Until there is positive reason and evidence to hold otherwise, that is the logical point where a whole, new human being comes into existence. KFkairosfocus
January 23, 2020
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A human life begins at conception. That’s the only reasonable conclusion.
I think that it is more accurate that the potential for human life begins at conception.
Choosing another starting point would be arbitrary and subject to great danger.
I don't think that anyone disagrees that conception is the starting point. Where there is disagreement it is around when human rights begin.
In the human soul is found the creative, moral and rational powers that exist in human beings.
I don't believe that a "soul" exists, at least not in the way I assume that you do. But nobody has attempted to answer the question about when this soul is imparted in the fetus? Is it at conception? Is it during brain development? Is it indivisible? Is it immortal? Are there a finite number of them?Ed George
January 23, 2020
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Kf @ 16:
JAD, yes, consciousness is a clear case, but the unconscious have not ceased to be human or ceased from having rights…
I am not denying any of that. My point is that consciousness, which in humans manifests itself in self-consciousness and rational thought, is something we know self-evidently. Therefore, it’s the logical starting point from where all of us, if we’re intellectually honest, must begin, including the dyed-in-the-wool materialist.john_a_designer
January 23, 2020
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In the human soul is found the creative, moral and rational powers that exist in human beings. Within the soul, human beings used the immaterial power of imagination, logic, rational thought and philosophical tests -- to invent something we call "science". Modern day science via methodological naturalism and our current scientific method did not always exist. It was created by humans. Obviously, we cannot use science to explain how we created science, since we created science before science existed. So, science was not involved in its own creation. It did not exist, then we made it up. Science was unnecessary (since it did not exist) in the development of science, so it cannot be the only means we have for understanding things. The powers used to create what we call science are found in the human soul. That's what existed before there was materialist-science. The creative, inventive power that enabled us to understand the world rationally. We couldn't use science at all for that. Science was non-existent. It was useless for that task. The same is true now. Asking how science can explain the origin of its own methods and rules is the same as asking how science was used to create the scientific method. It wasn't. Science wasn't around for that. Science doesn't know such things, and can't know. Science depends powers within the human soul for its own existence and validity.Silver Asiatic
January 23, 2020
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There is all this talk about a soul, or the disembodied mind, but there is nothing about when it starts.
That’s what science is for- to make such determinations
I would agree. So can those who believe in the existence of a soul explain how we can scientifically determine if an individual possesses a soul?Bob O'H
January 23, 2020
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You are right that it is because we manifestly rise above simple animality, exhibiting rational, responsible, conscience guided personhood that we find it self evident that there are mutual duties of care starting with to life, thus, rights.
I was glad to see EG offer that logical progression which is actually the correct foundation for understanding human life -- but the fact that he questioned it is a problem. As you say, we rise above animality. Why do we sense the responsibility of personality and care for other humans and not other existing things? We respond to the value that we see. We encounter a very high value whenever we see a human - we know there is a moral conscience and a huge potential for goodness in each person. So, we have the virtue of reverence - which is the admiration of greatness when we encounter it. A person lacking reverence is not capable of recognizing or responding to values. A thing of greatness is not known or appreciated. Everything is reduced to nothingness - nihilism. A cigarette butt has the same ontological value as a newborn baby. An equal amount of reverence is given to both. But a person of awareness and conscience will recognize the enormous value and potential for goodness within the life of a newborn baby. The child receives reverence and care.
Therefore, the dehumanisation by assertion or implication of our living posterity in the womb, to allow mass slaughter under colour of law is dubious and destructive.
We lament dehumanization because of the great value human nature has. We know the potential for good in each human - to become a person of moral and spiritual greatness. To dehumanize anyone is a crime.
The plain fact is, that a new human life begins at conception (half the time, not even the same sex as the mother) and that that is the only unique, manifest start point.
A human life begins at conception. That's the only reasonable conclusion. Choosing another starting point would be arbitrary and subject to great danger. To mistreat or even kill a human being because of a mistaken understanding of the person's value is like slavery or other crimes against humanity. It's the old moral law governing hunters in the forest, when aiming at something "that might be a human or might be a deer", there's only one moral choice and that is not to shoot.
There is no good reason whatsoever to withhold recognition of a unique human being with full rights from that point.
We want an enlightened society where we care for others and respond to who they are. An infant developing in the womb is the most vulnerable and defenseless. So, we seek to protect and care.Silver Asiatic
January 23, 2020
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Acartia Eddie:
There is all this talk about a soul, or the disembodied mind, but there is nothing about when it starts.
That's what science is for- to make such determinations. But then again you and science don't mix.
To me, the most important question is, when is a human being imbued with this “immortal soul”?
If it is so important to you then you should be trying to figure it out instead of spewing your ignorant trope on a blog.
It seems to me that these questions have to be answered before we can say when the right to life begins.
Science says life begins @ conception. That is why you have issues with understanding it.ET
January 23, 2020
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JAD, yes, consciousness is a clear case, but the unconscious have not ceased to be human or ceased from having rights. Even the dead are owed respect due to the dignity of the human being. And that is one of the horrors of war, undermining respect. KFkairosfocus
January 23, 2020
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EG, really. You are right that it is because we manifestly rise above simple animality, exhibiting rational, responsible, conscience guided personhood that we find it self evident that there are mutual duties of care starting with to life, thus, rights. One needs only establish living humanity to then recognise that the benefit of the doubt accrues to the living human being. Therefore, the dehumanisation by assertion or implication of our living posterity in the womb, to allow mass slaughter under colour of law is dubious and destructive. You have the burden of warrant the wrong way around. The plain fact is, that a new human life begins at conception (half the time, not even the same sex as the mother) and that that is the only unique, manifest start point. That this is the point of that fifth dimensional connexion would be a reasonable inference but is not subject to investigation in the test tube; we now know that the point of felt quickening is late in development. There is no good reason whatsoever to withhold recognition of a unique human being with full rights from that point. KFkairosfocus
January 23, 2020
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The first big problem for materialists is proving that matter exists. The second big problem is proving that matter is all that exists. In other words, for the materialist matter and matter alone is sufficient to explain everything else that exists. The only thing that I know is that I exist. I know that because I am conscious and I am conscious of my own existence. Everything else I know are beliefs based on logical inferences. Therefore, the logical place to begin is with consciousness. However, even if the only thing I can be certain of is consciousness it does not follow that consciousness is the only thing that exists or I am the being that exists. The starting point is epistemological not ontological. So what is soul? It’s consciousness. So if you are conscious you have a soul. That’s self evident.john_a_designer
January 22, 2020
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KF, you are avoiding the obvious. Human rights and the right to life are not afforded to the meat sack that we are. They are afforded to the person/soul/mind that we have. That begs the question, when do we attain the personhood/soul/mind? If this occurs at conception then I would concede that the right to life begins at conception. But if it doesn’t....? All I am asking is what your opinion is with regard to when we obtain our personhood/soul/mind.Ed George
January 22, 2020
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