reflections/meditations

A meditation, on Psalm 2

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Psalm 2 gives interesting context to the political storms of any given day:

HT, Blastus, from Handel’s Messiah, sung by a Korean singer

Psalm 2: The Reign of the LORD’s Anointed

1 Why do the nations rage
and the peoples plot in vain?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves,
and the rulers take counsel together,
against the LORD and against his Anointed, saying,
3 “Let us burst their bonds apart
and cast away their cords from us.”

4 He who sits in the heavens laughs;
the Lord holds them in derision.
5 Then he will speak to them in his wrath,
and terrify them in his fury, saying,
6 “As for me, I have set my King
on Zion, my holy hill.”

7 I will tell of the decree:
The LORD said to me, “You are my Son;
today I have begotten you.
8 Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage,
and the ends of the earth your possession.
9 You shall break2 them with a rod of iron
and dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.”

10 Now therefore, O kings, be wise;
be warned, O rulers of the earth.
11 Serve the LORD with fear,
and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son,
lest he be angry, and you perish in the way,
for his wrath is quickly kindled.
Blessed are all who take refuge in him. [ESV]

It will help to put this in context of Isa 52:13 – 53:12:

He Was Pierced for Our Transgressions

Isa 52:13 Behold, my servant shall act wisely;2
he shall be high and lifted up,
and shall be exalted.
14 As many were astonished at you—
his appearance was so marred, beyond human semblance,
and his form beyond that of the children of mankind—
15 so shall he sprinkle many nations;
kings shall shut their mouths because of him;
for that which has not been told them they see,
and that which they have not heard they understand.


Isa 53:1 Who has believed what he has heard from us?
And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
2 For he grew up before him like a young plant,
and like a root out of dry ground;
he had no form or majesty that we should look at him,
and no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by men;
a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief;
and as one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his wounds we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
yet he opened not his mouth;
like a lamb that is led to the slaughter,
and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent,
so he opened not his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away;
and as for his generation, who considered
that he was cut off out of the land of the living,
stricken for the transgression of my people?

9 And they made his grave with the wicked
and with a rich man in his death,
although he had done no violence,
and there was no deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him;
he has put him to grief;
when his soul makes an offering for guilt,
he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days;
the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand
.


11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied;
by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,
make many to be accounted righteous,
and he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many,10
and he shall divide the spoil with the strong,11
because he poured out his soul to death
and was numbered with the transgressors;
yet he bore the sin of many,
and makes intercession for the transgressors.

What is our response to Messiah, risen as prophesied 700 years ahead of time, as attested by 500 witnesses and unstoppable, life transforming resurrection power experienced by millions ever since?

This gives us perspective. END

69 Replies to “A meditation, on Psalm 2

  1. 1
    kairosfocus says:

    A meditation, on Psalm 2, further enlightened by Isa 52 – 53.

  2. 2
    Blastus says:

    Handel included a portion of Psalm 2 in his oratorio

    https://youtu.be/lYMM-YWn9rk

  3. 3
    kairosfocus says:

    Blastus, thanks, added at the right point above!

  4. 4
    JVL says:

    Beautiful music . . . why did you add the note “sung by a Korean singer”? What difference does that make?

  5. 5
    DATCG says:

    KF,
    Found this years ago, you may appreciate the following acrostic of Psalm 9-10..
    http://www.jhsonline.org/Articles/article_55.htm

    A bit of a time consuming read, but fascinating Hebraic interpretations we often
    miss out on from translations.

    “It is noteworthy that this lengthy meditation on the warped logic of the wicked falls exactly at the place where six consecutive letters are omitted. This correlation leads us to suggest that the structure of the psalm reflects its message. The alphabetic acrostic represents proper order ? the way the world should be when God is present. Mention and discussion of the wicked, who represent a breakdown in appropriate divine order, come at precisely the point where there is a breakdown in the acrostic sequence. In this ten verse long section which delves into the inner thoughts of the wicked, the acrostic breaks down completely and six letters go missing. The acrostic only gets back on track with the call for God to act and punish the wicked – ???? ?’ (10:12).”

  6. 6
    kairosfocus says:

    JVL, South Korea is undergoing a Christian tipping point event. KF

  7. 7
    JVL says:

    Kairosfocus: South Korea is undergoing a Christian tipping point event.

    He’s an opera singer!! He doesn’t care about the text, he just wants to sing it ’cause it’s famous and lovely and he gets paid! He travels all over the world; I bet most people in Korea never hear him sing at all.

    I own a performance of this piece of music and a lot of other liturgical music by Mozart and Haydn and Handel and I’m not a Christian!!

  8. 8
    kairosfocus says:

    JVL, that may be so, but ask yourself why that is so, why is this particular piece of music a major cultural icon. KF

  9. 9
    JVL says:

    Kairosfocus: that may be so, but ask yourself why that is so, why is this particular piece of music a major cultural icon

    A mojor cultural icon for who? I bet most people couldn’t name it if they heard it, do not own a copy of it and probably have never even heard it. I consider The Messiah a lovely, lovely piece but all over the world I’m in a minority. The English tend to know it better than some (partly because it was written in English while Handel was in England) but in America? Or even South Korea?

    Classical music is now a very niche market. I suppose most people recognise the names Mozart and Beethoven but I’m pretty sure a vast majority of people do not know when they lived or even what countries they are from.

    If you played that particular aria to 100 people on the street I’d bet less than 10, probably less than 5 could tell you what it was from or who wrote it.

  10. 10
    kairosfocus says:

    JVL, the cultural icon status of Handel’s work is not in doubt. That our post modern world has so far removed itself from roots and has such an impoverished education and too often worse tastes, speaks. I note, we are a communicative, symbolic race and cultural icons carry a good part of our vision; directly relevant to why Red Guards seek to desecrate and smash, then erase and rewrite a new narrative. Too often, one that is only remotely connected to well warranted, responsibly balanced truth. Of course, the pretence is that what they smash and would erase is evil and victory propaganda, but too often that is projection. In the case before us today, the 2nd Psalm and its echo in Isaiah, also its integration into one of the all time great pieces of the musical arts, we have a central issue of what is root reality: the Living God who is not silent, rescues and opens the door to redemption and blessed transformation. It is on that, which we should reflect. KF

  11. 11
    Querius says:

    Passages from the Bible inspired Handel to some of the most beautiful music ever written. The book of Job provided the passage “But I know that my redeemer lives,” which brings tears to my eyes when I hear it.

    Yes, KF recognizes the desire of those who want to repeat history to erase its previous successes and its horrible disasters for the purposes of freeing self appointed leaders to repeat history without objection. Erasing the lessons of history is absolutely essential before any oppressive dictatorship and subsequent genocide can be launched in the name of justice, fairness, or whatever. And its inevitable failure will once again be brushed aside with, “But that wasn’t TRUE socialism.”

    -Q

  12. 12
    Querius says:

    I’d like to add that I wouldn’t object to socialism if actually worked, but it hasn’t. Even the early Christians tried it as recorded in the book of Acts, and encountered problems.

    Nevertheless, the churches that many Christians attend practice a type of “voluntary socialism” in the form of anonymous benevolence to people in and outside the church, including food, financial help, cars, and lodging to people who are in need. This also extends to prisoners and parolees. Help like this also includes friendship, mentoring, helpful advice and contacts, and spiritual encouragement.

    This aid and love goes directly to people in the most need without government programs, bureaucracy, massive waste, innumerable forms, waiting in line, and misappropriation.

    Even the early Christians under persecution and poverty significantly helped society around them:

    In 362 A.D. the pagan Emperor Julian wrote to Arsacius, high priest of Galatia, expressing frustration at the failure of the pagan charities to match (or even come close to) the benevolence shown by the Christians who cared for the poor and the stranger. Julian laments, “the impious Galileans [Christians] support not only their poor, but ours as well, everyone can see that our people lack aid from us” (Epistle 22—see Rodney Stark, The Rise of Christianity).

    -Q

  13. 13
    awstar says:

    Who is the real author of Truth, Beauty and Goodness?

    https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2011/December/Handels-Messiah-Inspires-Listeners-Transcends-Time

    German-born George Frideric Handel moved to London in his late thirties. Handel considered himself an opera composer, but public interest was waning in England, and by 1741 a discouraged Handel wondered if retirement was near.

    “Some people do think at this point, it was kind of like a career crisis … and it’s quite possible that he was thinking of returning to Germany,” Martin Wyatt, deputy director of Handel House Museum in London, told CBN News.

    That’s when Charles Jennens handed him the words, or libretto, of “Messiah.” Jennens, a literary scholar, carefully selected Old and New Testament scriptures documenting prophecies about the Messiah, Jesus’ birth, death on the cross and resurrection.

    “The Christian message is in part also a response to the kind of growing interest in what is known as deism,” Wyatt explained.

    Since the deists did not believe in the divinity of Christ, Jennens sought to counter that thinking.

    “For Jennens, I think Messiah was a very personal passion, a very personal mission, and Jennens was a deeply religious man, a very committed Christian,” Wyatt said.

    “We find Jennens writing to another friend of his saying, ‘I’ve done this scripture collection for Handel, and I hope that he will expend his best efforts on it so that it becomes his best oratorio because it’s certainly on the best subject. The subject is Messiah,'” Charles Jennens scholar Ruth Smith said.

    Handel is believed to have composed “Messiah” in only 24 days. Many believe it was divinely inspired.

    One music scholar described the number of errors in the 259-page score as incredibly low for a composition of its length.

    It’s said that Handel never left his house during those three weeks, and a friend who visited discovered him sobbing with intense emotion.

    After he wrote the “Hallelujah” chorus, Handel was quoted as saying, “I did think I did see all Heaven before me, and the great God Himself.”

    For Jennens and Handel, “Messiah” would be an evangelistic tool to share the gospel with the masses.

    They even made the controversial decision to perform “Messiah” in theatres instead of churches to reach a wider audience — including the performers themselves.

    Handel used secular singer-actresses to perform the solos, such as Susannah Maria Cibber, a woman with an adulterous past, but who was described as being able to penetrate the heart with her voice, when other, more skilled vocalists could only reach the ear.

    “He touches people on every possible level,” Handel scholar Tim Brown, formerly of Cambridge, told CBN News. “Whether it be on a spiritual level, or musical level, or dramatic level, there’s something in Messiah for everybody, and of course for an audience.”

    “If you look at the YouTube flash mob ‘Hallelujah’ choruses, you will see that hits are currently running at about 43 million,” Smith said. “Now I doubt if all those people are Protestant Christians, and if you just watch some of those flash mob Hallelujahs, you can see in the people listening in the shopping mall and so on, you can see the change coming over their faces as they listen, and they are greatly moved.”

    Performances in Handel’s day were often benefit concerts, to help release people from debtor’s prison and provide for orphans in London’s well-known Foundling Hospital.

    One scholar wrote, “Messiah has fed the hungry, clothed the naked, fostered the orphan… more than any other single musical production in this or any country.”

    However, George Frideric Handel did not want the credit.

    At the end of “Messiah,” Handel wrote the letters “SDG” for Soli Deo Gloria, which means, “To God Alone the Glory.”

  14. 14
    Querius says:

    Thank you, Awstar! This is absolutely fascinating background information.

    -Q

  15. 15
    kairosfocus says:

    AW & Q, thanks. BTW, SDG is actually the Reformation motto. KF

  16. 16
    DATCG says:

    AWStar, thanks for that info.

  17. 17
    DATCG says:

    from Today’s daily promise…

    “But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. (Isaiah 53:5)”

  18. 18
    Orloog says:

    Messiah, risen as prophesied 700 years ahead of time, as attested by 500 witnesses and unstoppable

    Source?

  19. 19
    kairosfocus says:

    O, kindly first read the OP and particularly Isa 52 v- 3, c 700 BC. Next, cf the record of early church testimony dating to c 35 – 38 AD, written as a point of reference c 55 AD, 1 Cor 15:1 – 11. The millions since are all around. KF

  20. 20
    Orloog says:

    K,
    the texts were about Jesus? Did anybody tell the Jews?

  21. 21
    ET says:

    The Messiah. The texts were about the Messiah. And yes, the Hebrews knew.

  22. 22
    Mac McTavish says:

    Orloog

    Source?

    For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. (1 Corinthians 15:3-8)

  23. 23
    Orloog says:

    And Jesus was the messiah? How many Hebrews did agree? 10%? 1%? 0.1%?

  24. 24
    Orloog says:

    M,
    well, if Paul wrote this, it must be true, roma locuta and all that. It’s like Bilbo Baggins and his Red Book…

  25. 25
    ET says:

    And Jesus was the messiah?

    That’s the claim. He was a big enough deal to change how we looked at history. There is a BC and an AD. All because of Jesus. Now the nomenclature has changed but it still means the same thing.

    How many Hebrews did agree?

    It wasn’t a vote. But you moved the goalpost. Why is that? Methinks you are a tad dishonest

  26. 26
    Orloog says:

    ET,
    and we live in the year 1441 AH all because of Muhammad.

  27. 27
    Orloog says:

    ET,
    goalposts? I asked for the source of the claim that Jesus fulfilled a 700 year old prophecy. The Jews of Jesus’ time (and I today) have quite a difficulty to connect Psalm 2 to Jesus. Perhaps you can explain how this Psalm specifically refers to Jesus? Without invoking the preposition that “he is the son of God” ?

  28. 28
    kairosfocus says:

    O, the 700 BC text is quite clear, as the OP you were directed to explicitly cites, speaking of one hailed by GENTILE kings, by contrast despised and rejected at large by his own people, yet being wounded healer and sacrificial lamb for sins. So, ironically, remnant patterns are part of the prediction, one not exactly acknowledged by those who championed the rejection among the Jewish nation then or now.

    Then we see the utterly astonishing text:

    10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him;
    he has put him to grief;
    when his soul makes an offering for guilt,
    he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days;
    the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

    11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied;
    by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,
    make many to be accounted righteous,
    and he shall bear their iniquities.
    12 Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many,10
    and he shall divide the spoil with the strong,11
    because he poured out his soul to death
    and was numbered with the transgressors;
    yet he bore the sin of many,
    and makes intercession for the transgressors.

    This is why this text has been pivotal since the 30’s AD. KF

  29. 29
    kairosfocus says:

    MMT, yes, and again, implied in the OP with dating on event 35 – 38 AD, record 55 AD. KF

  30. 30
    Orloog says:

    K,

    the 700 BC text is quite clear

    Sorry, it isn’t:

    kings shall shut their mouths because of him

    Isn’t that about Napoleon Bonaparte?

  31. 31
    Orloog says:

    K,

    speaking of one hailed by GENTILE kings

    Wasn’t there an emperor in China who just did not get the note?

  32. 32
    ET says:

    and we live in the year 1441 AH all because of Muhammad.

    When they start selling that calendar @ Walmart, you will have a point. They can’t even get the number of days right. Even the Mayans figured that out.

    The goalpost moved from:

    Did anybody tell the Jews?

    to

    How many Hebrews did agree?

  33. 33
    kairosfocus says:

    O, the lack of clarity is yours, not the text’s. For example, v. 8 makes clear the fate of the wounded healer, suffering servant: >>8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people?>> This same one — it is an individual “the righteous one” the innocent given as substitute, sin offering — is identified as was in OP and already clipped: >>when his soul makes an offering for guilt [–> implying death as noted], he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.>> Resurrection could not be plainer, and of course it is the sign of Jonah as Jesus himself pointed out in his teachings beforehand. Further, note from 52:13 ff >>my servant shall act wisely; he shall be high and lifted up, and shall be exalted . . . 15 so shall he sprinkle many nations; kings shall shut their mouths because of him; for that which has not been told them they see, and that which they have not heard they understand.>> These elements, together, point to a quite clear, unique individual, where for simple example Napoleon simply does not fit the bill of particulars. Likewise, your red herring about particular kings who may not have heard the message and/or may have responded with hostility does not, cannot counter the massive fact of many kings who did hear and respond. Indeed, oddly Geo III, on hearing it the first time, rose in tribute to precisely the figure sung in the Messiah. That, is a famous historical footnote to the Messiah. KF

  34. 34
    Orloog says:

    ET

    The goalpost moved from:

    Did anybody tell the Jews?

    to

    How many Hebrews did agree?

    So, they were told, they just were not told convincingly. Well, ET, let me tell you that the Theory of Evolution is a valid scientific theory, explaining the origin of species.

  35. 35
    Orloog says:

    ET @25: “It wasn’t a vote” So it is not about a popularity contest.
    ET @32: “When they start selling that calendar @ Walmart, you will have a point.” So it is about a popularity contest.
    BTW: https://www.walmart.com/ip/2020-Planner-2-days-per-page-with-Islamic-Hijri-dates-Deep-Turquoise-Hardcover/735469970

  36. 36
    Orloog says:

    K@33,
    we have very different opinions about the meaning of the words “clear” and “plain”!
    BTW: who was Geo III? Could you please stop trying to be cryptic? Do you mean George III? Jesus was the messiah because a famously mad king was moved by music?

  37. 37
    BobRyan says:

    It does not matter if Jews believe Rabbi Yeshua was the Messiah, since the laws of Moses remain for them. Christians and Jews are both waiting for the same moment, which is the Messiah. Christians happen to believe it’s the return and Jews happen to believe it is the first appearance, but the event remains the same.

    The Tanakh, Jewish Bible referred to as the Old Testament by Christians, gets it’s name from the three sections it encompasses. Torah, which is Teaching and includes the laws of Moses. Nevi’im, which is the Prophets. Ketuvim, which is the Writings

    Matthew 5: 17-18 makes things quite clear in regards to the laws of Moses.
    17. “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
    18. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

    This is a direct reference to Torah and Nevi’im. All synagogues have the Torah, but not all have Nevi’im or the Ketuvim. There is no requirement for any synagogue to have all three and the only one Jewish law requires is the Torah.

    The synagogue Rabbi Yeshua spoke had both the Torah and Nevi’im, which is why he made direct reference to both. Last I checked, heaven and earth have not passed away, which means the laws of Moses continue for the Jews to this day.

    Gentiles do not fall under Jewish law, including the 10 Commandments. They fall under the 7 laws of Noah.

  38. 38
    Orloog says:

    LOL, BobRyan, if you do not take the bible for granted, the only statement left in your post is “heaven and earth have not passed away” – and the conclusion you draw from it does not make sense for any agnostic.

  39. 39
    BobRyan says:

    Orloog:

    My statement was directed to those who believe the Jews no longer fall under the laws of Moses and not in regards to you as an agnostic. Since you brought up being an agnostic, this is directed at you.

    There is no evidence to support macro-evolution at all. One cannot point to micro as evidence of macro. The scientific method is clear that a hypothesis cannot become a theory unless something has been observed and the results duplicated. Neither has happened with macro-evolution. There is no such thing as a scientific fact, since any theory, once it passes the test to go from hypothesis, is subject to change as more information is gathered over time.

    Pointing to micro-evolution as evidence of macro-evolution is no different than pointing to the universe as evidence of the multiverse. The existence of one does not guarantee the existence of the other.

    Think of God as a great intellectual being far beyond human understanding, rather than humanizing God. Remove the intellect from the universe and there are certain things that cannot happen. There can be no origin of the universe, since something cannot be created from nothing. There can be no laws of physics, since chaos cannot create order. There can be no origin of life, since life cannot come from no life.

    Intelligent Design of the universe is the only way even a single law can exist. Energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can only be transferred. They same energy that exists today has existed for billions of years. Since we know energy exists and it cannot be created, where did it come from?

  40. 40
    Orloog says:

    BobRyan: “My statement was directed to those who believe the Jews no longer fall under the laws of Moses” When did that question come up in the discussion above?

  41. 41
    BobRyan says:

    Orloog:

    The first paragraph of my initial response. Jews and Christians are waiting for the same Messiah and does not matter if the Jews do not believe it has not happened, since they are under a different set of laws than Gentiles.

    None of the above has any correlation to my challenge to you. If energy cannot be created, where did it come from?

  42. 42
    Orloog says:

    BobRyan,
    so, your statement addressed the first paragraph of your statement? It was just a monologue? And now you want to derail this thread with a debate on energy?

    Sorry, here, I’m just interested in prophecies.

  43. 43
    BobRyan says:

    Orloog:

    You are the one who brought up the question of anyone telling the Jews about Rabbi Yeshua being Messiah. I pointed out that it did not matter, since Jews continue to fall under the same laws. You said you were agnostic and did nothing to convince you. I challenged you on science and still wait for the answer. If there is no God, no Intelligent Design responsible for the creation of the universe, where does energy come from?

  44. 44
    kairosfocus says:

    O, I repeat, for cause. The want of clarity is not in the text but in you as reader. For context see Ac 8:26 ff. There is very good reason why this passage has been a pivot of Christian understanding of the gospel for 2,000 years. And it is not alone, there are about 300 relevant messianic prophetic texts in what we term the OT. Also, from C1 to now, a great many Jews have in fact accepted the force of this test as pointing to Jesus as Messiah. Just, they constitute a remnant currently. And I am sure you are aware that there is currently a significant growth in Messianic synagogues that inter alia accept the force of this text as it clearly points. It is attempted readings otherwise that are strained and incongruous, e.g. an individual who is unique and readily recognisable after the fact is being sketched, not a collective, and the issue of death as substitute and resurrection is not only plain but is prefigured in the story of Abraham, Isaac and the Ram in the thicket as well as the scapegoat ceremony and indeed the sacrificial system. KF

    PS: As you equally know but wish to evade by verbal gymnastics, the list of genuinely Christian kings is long indeed. In fact, a whole civilisation was profoundly transformed by the impact of the Christian synthesis of the tri-fold heritage foreshadowed in the languages of the three inadvertently prophetic inscriptions above the head of a certain man led outside a city wall and judicially murdered by connivance and/or power games of corrupt power brokers, Gentile and Jewish alike. (The indictment of the Nimrod-spirit could not be plainer).

  45. 45
    Orloog says:

    BobRyan: “You are the one who brought up the question of anyone telling the Jews about Rabbi Yeshua being Messiah. I pointed out that it did not matter, since Jews continue to fall under the same laws. ”

    It does not matter that the Jews convert to Christianity? Omnipotens sempiterne Deus, qui vis ut omnes homines salvi fiant et ad agnitionem veritatis veniant, concede propitius, ut plenitudine gentium in Ecclesiam Tuam intrante omnis Israel salvus fiat.
    Or what about Christian Zionism….

  46. 46
    kairosfocus says:

    O, your verbal gymnastics tell us volumes on the actual balance on merits. Why do the nations rage, indeed. KF

  47. 47
    Orloog says:

    K,
    was George III. one of those genuinely Christian kings?

  48. 48
    ET says:

    Orloog:

    So it is about a popularity contest.

    The CALENDAR issue is. Again, TRY to follow along. I see that is difficult for you.

  49. 49
    ET says:

    Orloog:

    Well, ET, let me tell you that the Theory of Evolution is a valid scientific theory, explaining the origin of species.

    Except for the fact that there isn’t any scientific theory of evolution. You can’t link to it. You can’t tell us who the author or authors were. You cannot say when it was published. You can’t say what it predicts based on its proposed mechanism. You have nothing.

  50. 50
    Orloog says:

    Orloog:

    Well, ET, let me tell you that the Theory of Evolution is a valid scientific theory, explaining the origin of species.

    Except for the fact that there isn’t any scientific theory of evolution. You can’t link to it. You can’t tell us who the author or authors were. You cannot say when it was published. You can’t say what it predicts based on its proposed mechanism. You have nothing.

    But at least you were told.
    You just were not convinced. Same with the Hebrews.

  51. 51
    ET says:

    How can I be convinced of something that doesn’t exist? All of the Hebrews were convinced a Messiah was coming. It was a prophecy.

  52. 52
    kairosfocus says:

    Orloog, the side-steps dance continuesin the context that he I cited Geo III, Rex as at a premier performance of the Messiah (the content of which you doubtless know) he rose to his feet in tribute, which then set a tradition. That in itself has nothing to do with the genuineness of his faith, though for all I know he had a basic Christian awareness and belief, never mind bouts of mental infirmity. (BTW, that also plagued, say one certain Georg Cantor . . . ) What I can say is that it is manifest that there were many like Alfred the Great of the West Saxons or Prince Henry the Navigator, or Louis IX of France, or Victoria or even the current Queen Bess the good. KF

  53. 53
    Orloog says:

    K,
    King Geo and Queen Bess – you really are chummy with the royals! Are these your best examples of genuine Christian kings? Then why had you to include Henry the Navigator – a slave-trader and not even a king?

  54. 54
    kairosfocus says:

    Orloog, all you are managing to do is to show that you are in the grips of the closed, hostile mind. The idea that kings would be moved to respect Isaiah’s Suffering Servant . . . what the text strictly speaking predicts . . . apparently sits cross-wise in your gullet. It seems you cannot bring yourself to face the massive fact of 1,000+ years of acknowledged, Christianity influenced civilisation, reflected in declared allegiances and respect shown by literally hundreds to thousands of Royals over the years. Perhaps, too, you will find it utterly incomprehensible that Churchill, leading Britain’s lonely fight at bay in the face of Hitler’s triumphant legions, who was by his admission not himself a committed Christian, saw that defence as a defence of Christian Civilisation. The conclusion follows immediately: if you cannot bring yourself to acknowledge such a dominant, blatant fact, the rest of your evasions, distractions and dismissals are just as worthless. Save, as inadvertently reflecting the mindset that is thus shown to us all. KF

    PS: Just for further fun, here is converso, Heine, predicting the likes of what so horrifically played out with Hitler and co, a century ahead of time, in one of the most astonishingly prophetic passages in modern literature:

    Christianity — and that is its greatest merit — has somewhat mitigated that brutal German love of war, but it could not destroy it. Should that subduing talisman, the cross, be shattered [–> the Swastika, visually, is a twisted, broken cross . . do not overlook the obvious], the frenzied madness of the ancient warriors, that insane Berserk rage of which Nordic bards have spoken and sung so often, will once more burst into flame [–> an irrational battle- and blood- lust]. …

    The old stone gods will then rise from long ruins and rub the dust of a thousand years from their eyes, and Thor will leap to life with his giant hammer and smash the Gothic cathedrals. …

    Do not smile at my advice — the advice of a dreamer who warns you against Kantians, Fichteans, and philosophers of nature. Do not smile at the visionary who anticipates the same revolution in the realm of the visible as has taken place in the spiritual. Thought precedes action as lightning precedes thunder. German thunder … comes rolling somewhat slowly, but … its crash … will be unlike anything before in the history of the world.

    At that uproar the eagles of the air will drop dead [–> cf. air warfare, symbol of the USA], and lions in farthest Africa [–> the lion is a key symbol of Britain, cf. also the North African campaigns] will draw in their tails and slink away. … A play will be performed in Germany which will make the French Revolution look like an innocent idyll. [Religion and Philosophy in Germany, 1831]

    Contrast, all too tellingly on the sickening history of the 3rd Reich, Provine:

    Naturalistic evolution has clear consequences that Charles Darwin understood perfectly. 1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent . . . .

    The first 4 implications are so obvious to modern naturalistic evolutionists that I will spend little time defending them. Human free will, however, is another matter. Even evolutionists have trouble swallowing that implication. I will argue that humans are locally determined systems that make choices. They have, however, no free will [–> without responsible freedom, mind, reason and morality alike disintegrate into grand delusion, hence self-referential incoherence and self-refutation. But that does not make such fallacies any less effective in the hands of clever manipulators] . . . [1998 Darwin Day Keynote Address, U of Tenn — and yes, that is significant i/l/o the Scopes Trial, 1925]

  55. 55
    Orloog says:

    K,
    you introduced the concept of a “genuinely Christian king” in #45:

    As you equally know but wish to evade by verbal gymnastics, the list of genuinely Christian kings is long

    So, again, when asked for examples, why did you have to include Prince Henry the Navigator? Could you state your best -perhaps – ten pics, preferably from modern times?

  56. 56
    ET says:

    kairosfocus- you are being trolled by another insipid troll. It’s very telling that when one insipid troll gets shown the door another just steps right in to fill the troll gap.

  57. 57
  58. 58
    kairosfocus says:

    O, that you are pretending that there was not a realm known as Christendom with Kings who were seriously and not just nominally Christian, speaks volumes. That list includes acknowledged “Saints” such as Louis IX and the only English king called Great, Alfred, founder of the Common Law system. There are many others. What is striking is that your refusal to acknowledge so blatant a fact shows that your credibility is nil on other points. In particular, you have shown just why you cannot find a clear understanding of say Isa 52 – 53. Game over. KF

  59. 59
    Orloog says:

    K,

    O, that you are pretending that there was not a realm known as Christendom with Kings who were seriously and not just nominally Christian, speaks volumes.

    There is Christendom, but when was there ever a realm known as Christendom? Perhaps for a short time under Constantine – who was a Christian king/emperor for less than a day.

  60. 60
    kairosfocus says:

    O, Christendom for centuries regarded itself as a common domain. KF

  61. 61
    Orloog says:

    K, did it? What about the Donatists in the 4th century? What about the sack of Constantinople in 1204? What about current days mormons? When was the time that Christendom regarded itself as a common domain?

  62. 62
    kairosfocus says:

    O, your tactic of successive tangents continues; I simply note to the reader that -dom as suffix generally denotes a realm, here that realm that as an ideal . . . though so often failed to be carried through in practice given sordid realities of morally struggling humanity . . . is seen as a zone acknowledging the Lordship of Christ. The sense of common identification is thus obvious. We then simply return focus to the original issue and duly note that you have shown yourself unwilling to acknowledge the most blatant facts and so your onward arguments are of no credibility. I note, all of this song and dance is in reaction to a meditation, telling in itself. KF

  63. 63
    Orloog says:

    K:

    your tactic of successive tangents continues

    Whose fault is this? I try to follow your stream of thoughts, but you tend to meander in these essays you present as comments. Picking up a single idea of you will take me on a tangent – after all, that is the straight line – while you wallow away.

  64. 64
    kairosfocus says:

    O, again, the tactic of tangents continues, here leading to ad hom. Duly noted. As is the failure to address even the most blatant but inconvenient facts. KF

  65. 65
    Querius says:

    Kairosfocus,

    What I don’t like is an exchange that follows the form:

    1. OP
    2. Objection: Wild, unsubstantiated claim which took 10 seconds to write.
    3. Defense: Rational response along with references that took a long time to write.
    4. Objection: Wild, unsubstantiated claim regarding one of the references, which took another 10 seconds to write.
    5. Defense: Patient response defending the reference with other references and quotations, which again takes a lot of time to write.
    6. Objection: Ad hominem attack. Another 10 seconds.

    And so on.

    There’s a distinct possibility that someone simply downloaded a copy of ELIZA, creating a troll version to waste our time. It actually wouldn’t be hard to do.

    How about asking questions to challenge the wild assertion? For example, “On what information did you base your assertion that Billy Graham was a known atheist who used to run naked in the woods wearing antlers?” Then when they respond that this was a well-known fact, put the burden of proof on them.

    If someone is genuinely interested in the prophecies regarding Messiah in the Tanakh, we can provide a few references for further study and answer honest questions. If someone is unwilling to accept any rational responses, nothing can help them–no logic, no artifact, no ancient writing, no fact, no post, and not even a miracle will tear them away.

    -Q

  66. 66
    ET says:

    Bravo (golf clap)

  67. 67
    kairosfocus says:

    Q, I doubt we are dealing with an algorithm but for sure we are dealing with the closed, hostile mind. In several countries, we are under lock down that effectively keeps people from regular church services. In that context, a pause to meditate is something that should be refreshing rather than a red flag for an angry bull. That some are on such hair triggers is yet another sign of where our civilisation has gone. Not a good place, and reason for reflection. Which is part of why I pointed out that if one cannot admit blatant facts and well known history, even something as obvious as the force of a suffix, then we have a prudential right to draw sobering conclusions about things that are more abstruse than that. KF

  68. 68
    Querius says:

    Kairosfocus,

    Yeah, it’s indeed sad that intellectual discourse is now paralyzed by mindless shouting or the equivalent in writing. A meaningful exchange of knowledge and perspectives of people who disagree is both provocative (in a good way), interesting, and educational for all parties.

    I doubt we are dealing with an algorithm . . .

    You’re probably right, but there are chat/troll/twitter bots capable of seemingly human responses . . .

    -Q

  69. 69
    kairosfocus says:

    4th gen civil war in the US. Shrug, sigh.

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