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Is Eugenie Scott an Atheist?

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This question was posed in one of the earlier threads on this blog. According to the following article, “Scott describes herself as atheist but does not discount the importance of spirituality.” Scott never asked the San Francisco Chronicle to retract this designation of atheism.

EUGENIE SCOTT
Berkeley scientist leads fight to stop teaching of creationism
Monica Lam, Special to The Chronicle
Friday, February 7, 2003
©2003 San Francisco Chronicle | Feedback

URL: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2003/02/07/EB75914.DTL

One morning in September, Eugenie Scott of Berkeley got a long-distance phone call from an alarmed parent in Cobb County, Ga. The board of education there was considering allowing creationism to be taught side-by-side with evolution as an alternative, scientific theory on human origins.

Scott sat at her desk, beneath a portrait of Charles Darwin in an office littered with books about evolution, models of hominid skulls and a map of the human genome, and typed up a speech she has delivered many times before. While students’ religious views should be respected, she wrote, schools should allow only science to be taught in science classes.

Two hours before the board’s vote, Scott e-mailed the speech to the parent to deliver to the board. But that board had already put disclaimers against evolution in the science textbooks, saying “evolution is a theory, not a fact” and that it should be “critically considered.”

Scott, the director of the National Center for Science Education in Oakland, has been fighting this particular battle for more than 15 years, and it has taken her around the country — from small towns in California to the deep South.

Her opponents are parents, politicians and even teachers who want creationism — the belief that God created human beings as literally described in the Bible — taught in public schools. This despite the fact that the U.S. Supreme Court has issued numerous decisions disallowing the teaching of creationism in public schools because it is a religious view and would violate the separation of church and state.

Scott’s work often takes her into the Bible Belt — the Midwest and the South — but closer to home, a recent conference in San Francisco on “intelligent design” attracted 200 college students and adults. Here Scott was confronted by the relatively new attack on evolution: scientists looking for scientific evidence to prove creationism is true.

While organizers insisted that the conference was about science — creation science — not religion, almost all the speakers were creationists. The intelligent design theory says that life on Earth is so complex and intricate that only an intelligent entity could have designed it.

“What we call creation science makes no reference to the Bible,” said Duane Gish, vice president of the Institute for Creation Research in San Diego.

“It says there are two possible explanations for the origin of the universe and living things: theistic, supernatural creation by an intelligent being, or nontheistic, mechanistic evolutionary theory that posits no goal and no purpose in the evolutionary process. We just happen to be here.”

“I think what bothers me so much of the time,” Scott said, “is they take the data and theory and distort it. They must know they’re distorting.”

But intelligent design theory has gained a lot of momentum, Scott said, because it allows religion, labeled as science, to sneak into schools through the back door.

But another opponent, Phillip Johnson, a Jefferson E. Peyser professor of law, emeritus at UC Berkeley’s Boalt Hall School of Law and author of “Darwin on Trial,” said Darwinism is all about religion.

“Its (evolution’s) impact is cultural,” he said. “It’s impact is it puts God out of reality. I am not bringing religion into the sacred precinct of science. The biologists are already neck deep in religion.”

The Ohio Board of Education recently considered including intelligent design theory in the science curriculum, but after a long debate voted against it. Scott and the National Center for Science Education advised the opponents of the proposal and counts it as another victory. However, Johnson also considers it a victory because the ruling did not exclude teaching intelligent design.

Don Kennedy, a Stanford University biology professor and editor in chief of the journal Science, said Scott has been effective because she’s knowledgeable about evolutionary theory.

“She’s the central force in contesting creationist claims by bringing good science to bear,” he said.

Scott grew up in Wisconsin and studied physical anthropology. She first heard of creationism in 1971, when she was a graduate student and, fascinated by what she thought was a rarity, started collecting literature and information on the movement.

Later, while teaching physical anthropology at the University of Kentucky in 1980, she led her first successful battle, blocking a Kentucky school board from including creationism in the curriculum.

In 1987, Scott was hired as the founding director of the nonprofit National Center for Science Education, the only national organization dedicated to “defending the teaching of evolution in public schools.”

In 2001, Scott’s organization recorded incidents in 43 school districts and five state boards of education in which the teaching of evolution was challenged. Legislation promoting the teaching of creationism was introduced in eight state legislatures and in the U.S. Senate, according to the center.

“She’s a front-line soldier in this war,” said Al Janulaw, a retired schoolteacher and spokesman for the California Science Teachers Association. “She’s everywhere in the country fixing things.” The association, a membership organization of K-12 and university educators, gave Scott its Margaret Nicholson Distinguished Service Award in 2002.

Scott gave up her career as a scientist to pursue activism because she says she sees science as fundamental to a proper education.

“You can’t really be scientifically literate if you don’t understand evolution,” Scott said. “And you can’t be an educated member of society if you don’t understand science.”

Scott describes herself as atheist but does not discount the importance of spirituality.

“Science is a limited way of knowing, looking at just the natural world and natural causes,” she said. “There are a lot of ways human beings understand the universe — through literature, theology, aesthetics, art or music.”

One of Scott’s biggest victories was in Kansas. In 1999, the Kansas State Board of Education voted to remove evolution from the testing standards, generating national headlines and prompting a campaign to preserve the standards. The grass-roots group, Kansas Citizens for Science, called on Scott for advice.

“We’d never been through this before,” said Liz Craig, who helped lead KCFS’ effort. Scott provided reference materials, people to contact and a shoulder to cry on, Craig said.

Scott also traveled to Kansas for several speaking engagements. In her earnest, soft-spoken voice, she tried to explain to parents and teachers that science and evolution are not anti-religion. “Students don’t have to accept evolution,” Scott frequently has said. “But they should learn it — as it is understood by scientists.”

Two years later, a new board was elected, and it restored evolution to the school standards.

The Kansas fight drew national attention to Scott’s work and brought in additional funding. With a spacious, loft-style office on 40th Street in Oakland, NCSE’s annual budget is $500,000, and Scott recently received a raise in her salary to $70,000.

Hanging next to photos of her husband and daughter are awards and cards from scientists and teachers around the country expressing their gratitude.

In 2002, she received a public service award from the National Science Board, which governs the National Science Foundation, to go along with the CSTA honor.

Still, there are many smaller conflicts that are beyond her reach, many of which involve individual students. In the spring, a seventh-grader in Edmond, Okla., was branded “Monkey Girl” by her classmates because she wanted to learn about evolution.

NCSE wrote a letter on the girl’s behalf, asking the principal and the teacher to respect her request and to curb the peer harassment, but to no avail. The family eventually moved to another school district.

Over the years, Scott has found her fight to be much less about science and more about politics. “I learned very early on that it’s necessary but not sufficient for scientists to go to school board meetings and say, ‘We shouldn’t be teaching creationism,’ ” Scott said. “Being right doesn’t mean it’ll pass.

“Public schools are where the next generation of leaders are educated and where cultural exchange will take place,” Scott said. And Scott will be there, fighting to ensure that students are taught evolution.

It’s scientific For more information on the National Center for Science Education, visit www.ncseweb.org or contact Eugenie Scott at 420 40th St., Suite 2, Oakland, CA 94609-2509; (510) 601-7203; ncseoffice@ncseweb.org.

Comments
This other example I talked a bit about earlier. It is very similar to the first, only on a different timescale. There are many cellular functions that are completely conserved across such broad evolutionary distances as plants and animals. These functions include things like DNA replication (whose central protein is DNA polymerase), and protein synthesis (whose central structure (made out of RNA) is the ribosome). With a bit of genetic engineering we could swap the gene the codes the ribosome out of plants, and put it into us, replacing our own ribosome gene. As far as we know (though we can't be sure), these core cellular genes are functionally across phyla. This givess common design the same prediction as before with synonymous sites, namely that morphologically similar species and morphologically dissimilar species should have the same level of differences regarding ribosome sequence. But, again this is not what we see. Plants and animals have the most differences between their conserved genes, and mammals have the least.cambion
November 14, 2005
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The first lies in the particulars of the genetic code. The codons CCT, CCC, CCA, and CCG all encode the amino-acid proline. A point mutation that changes CCT to CCA will invisible to the eyes of natural selection (except in some rare circumstances having to do the splice site recognition). Changes at these synonymous sites should accumulate over time by the process of random genetic drift at a rate equal to the rate of spontaneous mutation (I can go more into the population genetics of this if you would like). What we see is that the number of synonymous differences between the genomes of two species corresponds amazingly well to our morphological / fossil estimates. Thus, the synonymous sites of rat and mouse are much more similar than the synonymous sites of mouse and human. So far, this has held true for comparisons of human, chimp, mouse, rat, dog and cow (and that's just for mammals). These synonymous sites could be anything at all, it just doesn't matter from a design perspective (i.e. every single codon in every organsism could be CCT rather than CCC, CCA, or CCG). The null hypothesis given by common design would be equivelent levels of synonymous similarity between all mammalian species. The observed patterns of correspondence provide an excellent indication of patterns of common ancestry. It is possible that a designer is just trying to fool us, but there is no functional reason for finding these patterns.cambion
November 14, 2005
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Bombadill, "I’m failing to see, cambion, how DNA homology more strongly supports common ancestry than it does common design. It seems that the only way to arrive at this conclusion is to make unwarranted assumptions about how the designer should design. Can you expound on your point here?" I'd be happy to (sorry to be slow to reply by the way). And let me preface things by saying that the following in no way speaks the issue of natural selection, only common descent... The essential thing in differentiating common descent from common design in DNA sequence data lies in telling apart analogous change (where two sequences look similar because they have similar functions, i.e. common design) and homologous change (where two sequences look similar because share ancestry, i.e. common descent). Looking at functional parts is a bad thing to do here (the functional wings of birds and bats are very similar). Instead we want to concern ourselves with nonfunctional differences (this is why paleontologists study tiny differences in the bone structure of the inner ear and such). I'll present a couple of examples of nonfunctional differences...cambion
November 14, 2005
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Sorry about that... Ignore most of my comment #70 (I hit select all on my scratchpad by accident). All that I meant to paste in addresses Bombadill...cambion
November 14, 2005
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DaveScot, You say: ” Are you suggesting that cancer is a novel cell type and we observed its creation in nature by random mutation and natural selection?” I would actually make an argument for that being the case. A cancer is induced by genetic change to the chromosomes within a cell. This is a form of mutation that happens in somatic tissue rather than germline tissue, and hence is not heritable. These genetic changes lead the cell to stop listening to what the cells around it are saying and strike out on its own. It keeps reproducing even though the body tells it to stop. You end up with lots and lots of cancer cells because of this. This is a form of natural selection (though from an individual cell’s perspective, rather than that of the organism). Mutation results in an increase of fitness over that of the other cells in the body. If certain cancer cells undergo futher genetic change that results in them either reproducing more quickly, or better evading the body’s defense systems, then these will be selected for and come to replace the original cancer cells. Pretty neat huh? For some reason something in my post (that goes between 19 and 20) is causing it to be dropped. I have no idea why. I'll rewriting things a bit and see if that helps. Cancer is caused when a somatic cell undergoes mutation (this is why smoking and such is linked to cancer, nicotine induces mutations). This form of mutation is non-heritable (in the organismic sense), unlike those in germline tissue. Evolution from the point of view of the organism happens in these germline mutations. However, evolution (from the cell's POV) occurs from these somatic changes. These changes lead the cell to stop listening to the cell's around and strike out on its own. It keeps replicating, even though the body tells it to stop. This results in lots and lots of cancer cells. jboze3131, It's a tradeoff. The cell's within our body our kept in line as best we can. However, note the massive prevalence of cancer as a cause of death once other causes are removed (as what's happened in the 1st world). Organisms (not the cells within them) are selected to have mechanisms to control their cells. If an organisms cannot control it's cells well enough, it will indeed "mean death to ALL the cells." However, these organisms will be eliminated by natural selection. It can take place on multiple levels at the same time, so that selection on one level conflicts with selection at another. Check out "Intragenomic conflict" at Wikipedia if you're interested... Gumpngreen, Yes, the new HeLa cells could be considered "a degenerative modification of pre-existing CSI." However, I would argue that these cells are indeed a new cell type. Theoretically, they could thrive outside the human body (almost like bacteria) given the proper environmental conditions. I don't know if you'd consider that a new species or not, given that the genome is almost exactly the same an the canonical human genome, but they live a unicellular lifestyle. "If people as you claim study evolution in order to understand the world around them ,then they would not be biased against the anti-evolution arguments." Let me rephrase my claim a bit. I claim 'I' study evolution in order to understand the world around me. I find living things in all their forms and complexity to be fascinating. I want to understand how they got to be that way. I have by no means dismissed ID as a hypothesis. If you look at some of my other posts I have suggested ways of testing some of its predictions. I'm very happy people are looking into these things. Research can only further our understanding of the world, either enhancing support for evolutionary theory, or replacing with something else. The way I see it right, however, is that criticisms of evolution remain highly speculative. Stuff along the lines of: "We see evolutionary by natural selection happening all the time Bombadill, "I’m failing to see, cambion, how DNA homology more strongly supports common ancestry than it does common design. It seems that the only way to arrive at this conclusion is to make unwarranted assumptions about how the designer should design. Can you expound on your point here?" I'd be happy to (sorry to be slow to reply by the way). And let me preface things by saying that the following in no way speaks the issue of natural selection, only common descent... The essential thing in differentiating common descent from common design in DNA sequence data lies in telling apart analogous change (where two sequences look similar because they have similar functions, i.e. common design) and homologous change (where two sequences look similar because share ancestry, i.e. common descent). Looking at functional parts is a bad thing to do here (the functional wings of birds and bats are very similar). Instead we want to concern ourselves with nonfunctional differences (this is why paleontologists study tiny differences in the bone structure of the inner ear and such). I'll present a couple of examples of nonfunctional differences... -------------------------------------- The first lies in the particulars of the genetic code. The codons CCT, CCC, CCA, and CCG all encode the amino-acid proline. A point mutation that changes CCT to CCA will invisible to the eyes of natural selection (except in some rare circumstances having to do the splice site recognition). Changes at these synonymous sites should accumulate over time by the process of random genetic drift at a rate equal to the rate of spontaneous mutation (I can go more into the population genetics of this if you would like). What we see is that the number of synonymous differences between the genomes of two species corresponds amazingly well to our morphological / fossil estimates. Thus, the synonymous sites of rat and mouse are much more similar than the synonymous sites of mouse and human. So far, this has held true for comparisons of human, chimp, mouse, rat, dog and cow (and that's just for mammals). These synonymous sites could be anything at all, it just doesn't matter from a design perspective (i.e. every single codon in every organsism could be CCT rather than CCC, CCA, or CCG). The null hypothesis given by common design would be equivelent levels of synonymous similarity between all mammalian species. The observed patterns of correspondence provide an excellent indication of patterns of common ancestry. It is possible that a designer is just trying to fool us, but there is no functional reason for finding these patterns. ----------------------------------------- This other example I talked a bit about earlier. It is very similar to the first, only on a different timescale. There are many cellular functions that are completely conserved across such broad evolutionary distances as plants and animals. These functions include things like DNA replication (whose central protein is DNA polymerase), and protein synthesis (whose central structure (made out of RNA) is the ribosome). With a bit of genetic engineering we could swap the gene the codes the ribosome out of plants, and put it into us, replacing our own ribosome gene. As far as we know (though we can't be sure), these core cellular genes are functionally across phyla. This givess common design the same prediction as before with synonymous sites, namely that morphologically similar species and morphologically dissimilar species should have the same level of differences regarding ribosome sequence. But, again this is not what we see. Plants and animals have the most differences between their conserved genes, and mammals have the least. ------------------------------------------ Let me restate one thing. This only shows common descent. It is hypothetically possible that neutral evolution has been occuring for many millions of years, resulting in these patterns, while all functional differences were created by an intelligent agent and not natural selection.cambion
November 14, 2005
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"Here’s something for you to think about. How many individuals did the chromosome change (chimp/human) initially occur in and if the answer is one individual how did that one individual find a compatible mate when the different chromosome count would rule out procreation?" This is not quite true. Individuals with differ chromosome counts can indeed reproduce and have fertile offspring. Let's say there is a Robertsonian translocation so that chromosomes A and B are fused at the centromere. The mating is then: A B x A-B The zygotes have a 50% chance of being aneuploid (lacking genetic information or having double genetic information for a chromosome). These will almost always be aborted very early in the pregnancy. In fact, most spontaneous abortions are thought to result from natural chromosomal abnormalities. However, the zygotes also have a 50% chance of being euploid (having the correct amount of genetic information and hence healthy). One half of these (1/4 overall) will be A B, and one half (1/4 overall) will be A-B. Thus, the translocation is only slightly deleterious, and has a chance to be fixed in the population by drift alone (though also note that if it suceeds in getting past 50% frequency in the population, the original chromosomal state will then be selected against, and translocation's fixating will be aided by natural selection). Slightly delerious mutations do not often fix, but this is consistent with what we observe. 30 million nucleotide changes, and 1 chromosomal translocation.cambion
November 14, 2005
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"Short time frame is not an unreasonable characterization. In small reproductively isolated populations mutations can become fixed in the population rapidly compared to large populations." Agreed, but Gould and Eldridge do not present this as part of PE. Note, however, Mayr discusses this when he presents his theory of peripatric speciation.cambion
November 14, 2005
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"Why would anyone be trying to test a theory that’s already as well tested as gravity?" That's a pretty good point, but, you know, they're still looking for gravitons, aren't they? My basic concern is trying to establish what proportion of genetic differences can be attributed to natural selection and what proportion can be solely attributed to drift. I do accept that natural selection does fix some of the genetic changes we see between species. How many genes show evidence of positive selection? The question for me is, whether there are a few selected changes which caused a large morphological change, or numerous selected changes that caused the same large morphological change. Confirming the presence (as opposed to the quantity) of selection is more or less a side effect (at least for me).cambion
November 14, 2005
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"My work focuses on trying to ascertain if we can see natural happening on the DNA sequence level. I’m not entering into things thinking that we’ll see all kinds of selection, only asking the question: “do we see the effects of natural selection on the evolution of genes in natural populations.” To me, this represents a very concrete sort of question. It becomes about quantitative answers, rather than narrative “just-so-stories” that often told in evolutionary biology." Why would anyone be trying to test a theory that's already as well tested as gravity?DaveScot
November 14, 2005
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cambion Here's something for you to think about. How many individuals did the chromosome change (chimp/human) initially occur in and if the answer is one individual how did that one individual find a compatible mate when the different chromosome count would rule out procreation? If the answer is more than one individual what mechanism do you propose could produce two individuals, male and female, geographically and temporally close together, with the same new chromosome organization so that they could produce offspring of the new species? I recommend reading Emeritus Professor of Biology John A. Davison's evolutionary manifesto for hypothetical answers to the above connundrum. http://www.uvm.edu/~jdavison/davison-manifesto.htmlDaveScot
November 14, 2005
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cambion Humans and chimps have a different number of chromosomes. How much of the difference between the species is due to chromosomal reorganization and how much due to point mutations?DaveScot
November 14, 2005
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Short time frame is not an unreasonable characterization. In small reproductively isolated populations mutations can become fixed in the population rapidly compared to large populations. Large mutations is a questionable characterization but may be defended by saying rapid bursts of small mutations look like one big mutation in the fossil record since all the small ones would be unlikely to be recorded. In other words it's an artifact caused by sampling frequency.DaveScot
November 14, 2005
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mentok, Does it bother you that darwinismrefuted.com did such a shody job in their discussion of Punctiated Equilbrium? Here is a sample of what they say: "According to this viewpoint, evolutionary changes take place in short time frames and in very restricted populations-that is, the equilibrium is divided into separate periods or, in other words, "punctuated." Because the population is very small, large mutations are chosen by natural selection and thus enable a new species to emerge." PE has nothing to do with short time frames or large mutations. Why is it do you think that they propogate this false understanding of the theory? I did, however, read most of the 'book'. It does make a few good criticisms, such as the difficulty distinguishing homologous structures from analogous structures, and the misrepresentation of antibiotic resistance as an incapulation of evolution. However, I was dissapointed with book's reliance on equating abiogenesis with evolution, and with using the sort of tornado in a junkyard analogies that do not fit at all. It says things like: "Quite aware that the second law of thermodynamics renders evolution impossible..." However, all it talks about regarding thermodynamics lies in abiogenesis, and not in evolution. This is another pretty serious misrepresentation of the facts.cambion
November 13, 2005
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were still talking about 1. gliding, and 2. nothing that would even remotely suggest that these animals would eventually totally transform into animals with wings of ANY kind. were basing all of this on assumptions that animals can actually evolve into new types of animals (whether the process work slowly or in rapid bursts of change)...weve no empirical evidence to suggest that any mechanism is capable of doing this sort of thing. so, were dealing purely with a hypothetic evolutionary path that may not even exist. the phrase "evolutionary path" might not even be the way things truly are. therein lies the problem- all of this is hypothetic science posing as empirical science that is supposedly the basis of all biology (tho, as we have seen, recent articles by evolutionists themselves have debunked this notion.) if there is some evolutionary pathway involved, and the evolution just never went anywhere with the whole gliding to flying, skin webbing to wings idea- that would lend to the idea that the mechanism itself, that supposedly brought about all the various life forms, isnt so powerful afterall. surely flying fish with wings would survive better than those without...flying snakes could easily get away from predators, much better than a non-flying snake, no doubt. etc.jboze3131
November 13, 2005
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I'm failing to see, cambion, how DNA homology more strongly supports common ancestry than it does common design. It seems that the only way to arrive at this conclusion is to make unwarranted assumptions about how the designer should design. Can you expound on your point here? Thanks.Bombadill
November 13, 2005
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MGD, Again, I agree with you (however, you'll note I actually haven't used the term "evolution" to refer to the regaining of the stick insect wings, I wasn't trying to equate this with any sort of larger process). I was trying to point out the difference between the capabilities of variation and the capabilities of mutation. So we can drop the subject: I agree that seeing Drosophila (or stick insects) that recently lost their wings regain them does not prove that the same mechanism caused them to evolve their wings in the first place.cambion
November 13, 2005
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"I think this is mostly semantic at this point" I agree. You call this hypothetical process "evolution", and then (by implication) use the same word to describe how insects got their wings in the first place. At best this is an unwarranted extrapolation at worst it is equivocation. "I was trying to say that mutations can make changes outside of the scope of the limits of a species’ gene pool." But the genetic and developmental aperatus was already in place. It's like having a working tv set that someone pulls the plug on (mutation). Plug it back in (back mutation) and the tv runs again. This can also happen to wingless drosophila in the laboratory. Sometimes wings can reemerge in later generations. This example wont hold water. Choose another or just drop it.MGD
November 13, 2005
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Animals with gliding mechanisms such as squirrels are certainly on a different evolutionary path to birds with wings. The gliding mechanism cannot have breaks or ruffles in it, and it is a skin flap that runs continuously between the forelegs and the hindlegs.avocationist
November 13, 2005
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jboze3131, First off, I think you do not give enough credit to flying fish... "because some fish can ‘jump’ out of the water into the air, were anywhere near flight? (which requires wings!)" From Wikipedia: "To prepare for a glide, the fish swim rapidly close to the surface of the water, with their fins close to the body. As they leave the water, they spread their fins. The caudal fin is usually deeply forked, with the lower lobe longer than the upper. The fish rapidly move the lower lobe to propel themselves forward once the rest of the body has already left the water. Eventually, even the tail leaves the water and the fish are airborne. They do not flap their "wings". In gliding, flyingfish can almost double their speed, reaching speeds up to 60 km/h. The glides are usually up to 30-50 meters in length, but some have been observed soaring for hundreds of metres using the updraft on the leading edges of waves. The fish can also make a series of glides, each time dipping the tail into the water to produce forward thrust." I thought that was pretty cool. "theres no way you can reasonably posit that these animals were evolving into having the ability to fly (which requires wings)" I think you misunderstand me... The 'transitional' gliding forms I was refering to will not necessary eventually evolve the capacity for powered flight. They only have the chance or opportunity to evolve flight at some point in the future. They have begun moving down that path, it's not at all certain they will finish it. As you've pointed out abundantly before, there is a lot of 'chance' involved in evolution. A flying fish already has something very close to a set of wings, namely enlarged pectoral fins. Natural selection could over time, favor the strengthening of the muscles attached to these fins, eventually allowing for powered flight. Whether or not this actually occurs is a matter of chance, chance that depends a lot on what sort of environmental pressures the fish faces.cambion
November 13, 2005
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cambion those are not transitions and they are not accepted as such by evolutionists. Those creatures are not growing wings, they are not mutations. from http://www.darwinismrefuted.com/origin_of_species_04.html "At this point, it is necessary to clarify just what the concept of "transitional form" means. The intermediate forms predicted by the theory of evolution are living things falling between two species, but which possess deficient or semi-developed organs. But sometimes the concept of intermediate form is misunderstood, and living structures which do not possess the features of transitional forms are seen as actually doing so. For instance, if one group of living things possesses features which belong to another, this is not an intermediate form feature. The platypus, a mammal living in Australia, reproduces by laying eggs just like reptiles. In addition, it has a bill similar to that of a duck. Scientists describe such creatures as the platypus as "mosaic creatures." That mosaic creatures do not count as intermediate forms is also accepted by such foremost paleontologists as Stephen Jay Gould and Niles Eldredge." cambion: Here's something interesting on Gould: http://www.arn.org/ftissues/ft9801/opinion/johnson.htmlmentok
November 13, 2005
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lol. come on cambion! if we have flying snakes, we should see near bird snakes. because something can glide by flattening its body doesnt mean it was evolving into anything. why on earth would NS choose these features then stop basically? why no true flying snakes or squirrels? because some fish can 'jump' out of the water into the air, were anywhere near flight? (which requires wings!) because a snake can flatten its body and therefore use this feature to sort of glide doesnt show any half-flight features! gliding doesnt automatically lead to flight. flattening your body is nowhere near having wings...and weve no proof that any of these animals were ever on their way to forming wings! a frog with webbed feet is even further away from wings, which again is required for flight. theres no way you can reasonably posit that these animals were evolving into having the ability to fly (which requires wings) just because one has webbed feet it can use to merely glide or that a snake can flatten its body to also glide. how would the ability to flatten ones body evolve into wings? thats speculation that doesnt even make sense.jboze3131
November 13, 2005
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mentok, You say: "Why do we not see living today creatures somewhere with those mutations in the incomplete stage of turning into a flying animals?" But we do... Around us today are many transitional fliers. In this case, animals that gotten so far as to glide, but not to fly. We have 'flying squirrels,' 'flying' snakes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysopelea), 'flying' lizards, 'flying' frogs (they use their webbed feet to glide), and even 'flying' fish. Given more time any one of these (well, probably not the fish...) could evolve the capacity for powered flight. Evolution is all around us...cambion
November 13, 2005
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jboze3131, "the point was- what mechanism could possibly make these massive and quick changes?" Say this with me: "Punctuated equilibrium has nothing to do with changes taking place quickly in time." Now, read that line 10 more times...cambion
November 13, 2005
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cambion you posted this abstract: "Abstract: “The evolution of wings was the central adaptation allowing insects to escape predators, exploit scattered resources, and disperse into new niches, resulting in radiations into vast numbers of species." Ya see...this the problem with evolutionists whenever they write about their research. They begin with begging the question. They start from the premise that evolution was the mechanism which accounts for diversity. Then they go on to make their little thesis about whatever. Because they take evolution for granted and they are also writing for an audience which takes evolution for granted they then take no steps in their thesis to try and prove that evolution did indeed happen. It's a given. Let's continue: "Despite the presumed evolutionary advantages associated with full-sized wings (macroptery), nearly all pterygote (winged) orders have many partially winged (brachypterous) or wingless (apterous) lineages, and some entire orders are secondarily wingless (for example, fleas, lice, grylloblattids and mantophasmatids), with about 5% of extant pterygote species being flightless. Thousands of independent transitions from a winged form to winglessness have occurred during the course of insect evolution;" There he goes again. He is not actually saying anything of any real value. He is simply saying "evolution in this case went in this direction". That's just another question begging statement. There is no attempt to prove that evolution happened. You may object and say that that is just an abstract. But if you go and read the man's research you will find the same thing, it's the standard operating procedure amongst almost all evolutionists to not present any evidence that evolution actually took. It's always taken for granted and then the authors expand on their ideas of why or in what direction it took place. It's all just circular reasoning, not science. It's like children having a discussion about what the Tooth Fairy looks like. Let's continue: "...however, an evolutionary reversal from a flightless to a volant form has never been demonstrated clearly for any pterygote lineage. Such a reversal is considered highly unlikely because complex interactions between nerves, muscles, sclerites and wing foils are required to accommodate flight." Here he mistakingly makes a valid point and by doing so discredits the theory of evolution. If an animal is going to evolve froma flightless animal into a flying animal there needs to be a serious change in anatomy. Flight requires a comprehensive change to a flightless animals body plan. The probability that the number of consecutive advantageous mutations needed that can end up with an animal that can fly actually occuring, is so small that it would have to be considered impossible. Yet in nature we see flying creatures from insects to reptiles to avians. What is the probability of a flightless animal having a lineage which experienced consecutive advantageous mutations leading to the animal being changed completely and allowing it to fly? Let's for a second say that that miracle occured exactly as evolutionists claim it did. How long would it take? How many millions of years? Where are the fossils of the transitional forms? Why do we not see living today creatures somewhere with those mutations in the incomplete stage of turning into a flying animals? In fact there should be more transitional forms then completed forms. This is because according to evolution evolving is a non stop process in nature. We should continually see evolution everywhere, in the past and present. Yet we see it nowhere. But lets talk about what the Tooth Fairy likes to eat for lunch. what do think? Frunkleberry pie? Let's continue: "Here we show that stick insects (order Phasmatodea) diversified as wingless insects and that wings were derived secondarily, perhaps on many occasions. These results suggest that wing developmental pathways are conserved in wingless phasmids, and that ‘re-evolution’ of wings has had an unrecognized role in insect diversification”" Again more begging of the question. Can he prove or does he evn try to prove that stick insects "diversified"? No. It's take for granted that evolution happens so there is no need to go into all of that. Then he say "these results suggest". If you want to see something bad enough you might be able to convince yourself that it is there. What he has done is to take some examples of stick insects and then create a grand theory without any actual data to back up that theory. Is there a population survey? A genetic study amongst that popluation survey? Are there enough fossils of stick insects that will enable you to get an accurate picture of the actual situation, in other words how do we know that our data is complete? If we do not have enough data and show no proof that evolution took place, then what is the use of speculating? How is that called science? How does he know that stick insects both wingless and winged varieties are not always around somewhere? Is the fossil record on stick insects enough to show that there couldn't possibly have been both wingless and winged stick insects living during the same period? There would need to be a large amount of data and research done in order to confidently conclude what has been concluded. Yet in the fantasy realm of evolutionary "science" proof is not required. Novel theories are their sine qua non. For the unbelievers...burn them at the stake. Let's continue; "Bottom line is: stick insects have lost and regained wings many many times." Riiiiiiight.mentok
November 13, 2005
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the point was- what mechanism could possibly make these massive and quick changes? and a theory that leaves no evidence for the transitions that supposedly should be found...thats a weak theory to say the least.jboze3131
November 13, 2005
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MGD, "But the information was already in the genome, that’s what conserved means." I think this is mostly semantic at this point, but I also think there is something important there. mentok was saying that evolution cannot ever get anywhere because of the limits of variation within a species' gene pool. I was trying to say that mutations can make changes outside of the scope of the limits of a species' gene pool. "The remarkable thing is that random mutation, drift, etc., doesn’t scramble the information while wings are not expressed in the phenotype." This is indeed quite remarkable. (To this evolutionist) it suggests that the genes specifically involved in making wings also make other things, and it's just a question of wiring them in the correct way. Otherwise (if wing genes made wings and nothing else), once a species lost its wings, these genes would decay and it would at all easy to regain them.cambion
November 13, 2005
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Oops, should be "Of course, there wouldn't be many fossils..."cambion
November 13, 2005
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jboze3131, I'd suggest you reread my post. PE was suggested as a theory specifically to avoid instituting a "mechansism that made for quick bursts of change." Reading comprehension FTW. "there wouldnt be many fossils because of the way the changes happened…thats quite convenient for the theory!" Theories describe observed phenomenon. Of course, there would be many fossils if PE is correct. Your statement is akin to saying: "you say that with gravity, matter would be attracted to matter... thats quite convenient for the theory!"cambion
November 13, 2005
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“Gould and Eldredge did not specify any particular genetic mechanism for PE. PE does not require large scale mutations.” so natural selection was the mechanism that made for quick bursts of changes? then again, you say that with PE, there wouldnt be many fossils because of the way the changes happened...thats quite convenient for the theory!jboze3131
November 13, 2005
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"One morning in September, Eugenie Scott of Berkeley got a long-distance phone call from an alarmed parent in Cobb County, Ga. The board of education there was considering allowing creationism to be taught side-by-side with evolution as an alternative, scientific theory on human origins" Oh no! Somebody DOOOO something! ;)Mats
November 13, 2005
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