Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Protein Synthesis . . . what frequent objector AF cannot acknowledge

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Let us use a handy diagram of protein synthesis:

Protein Synthesis (HT: Wiki Media)

[U/D, Sep 2:] Where, to clarify key terms, let us note a key, classic text, Lehninger, 8th edn:

The information in DNA is encoded in its linear (one-dimensional) sequence of deoxyribonucleotide subunits . . . . A linear sequence of deoxyribonucleotides in DNA codes (through an intermediary, RNA) for the production of a protein with a corresponding linear sequence of amino acids . . . Although the final shape of the folded protein is dictated by its amino acid sequence, the folding of many proteins is aided by “molecular chaperones” . . . The precise three-dimensional structure, or native conformation, of the protein is crucial to its function.” [Principles of Biochemistry, 8th Edn, 2021, pp 194 – 5. Now authored by Nelson, Cox et al, Lehninger having passed on in 1986. Attempts to rhetorically pretend on claimed superior knowledge of Biochemistry, that D/RNA does not contain coded information expressing algorithms using string data structures, collapse. We now have to address the implications of language, goal directed stepwise processes and underlying sophisticated polymer chemistry and molecular nanotech in the heart of cellular metabolism and replication.]

Let’s add more from Lehninger and heirs, who went out of their way to make the point, Oct 29:

Further u/d Sept 2: A look at creating mRNA:

As Wikipedia admits (but, revealingly, does not duly emphasise) with a few telling words:

In molecular biology, RNA polymerase (abbreviated RNAP or RNApol), or more specifically DNA-directed/dependent RNA polymerase (DdRP), is an enzyme that synthesizes RNA from a DNA template. Using the enzyme helicase, RNAP locally opens the double-stranded DNA so that one strand of the exposed nucleotides can be used as a template for the synthesis of RNA, a process called transcription. A transcription factor and its associated transcription mediator complex must be attached to a DNA binding site called a promoter region before RNAP can initiate the DNA unwinding at that position. RNAP not only initiates RNA transcription [–> algorithmic start, notice, transcribing is generally stepwise], it also guides the nucleotides into position, facilitates attachment and elongation [–> notice direct parallel to stepwise synthesis of AA chains for proteins, cf Lehninger 8th edn p 3346: “RNA polymerase elongates an RNA strand by adding ribonucleotide units to the 3 ′- hydroxyl end, building RNA in the 5 ′ → 3 ′ direction”], has intrinsic proofreading and replacement capabilities [–> language], and termination recognition [–> algorithmic halting] capability. In eukaryotes, RNAP can build chains as long as 2.4 million nucleotides.

This is a corner of the general cell metabolism framework:

Where, Yockey observes (highlighted and annotated):

Yockey’s analysis of protein synthesis as a code-based communication process

Where, too, the genetic code is, and its context of application is:

Given, say, Crick:

Crick’s letter

. . . we need to ask, why. END

F/N1: It seems advisable to highlight the layer cake architecture of communication systems

, , , and of Computers, following Tanenbaum:

Clearly, the communication framework does not reduce to the physics of the hardware involved.

F/N2: Dawkins admits

He tries to deflect the force by appeal to “natural selection,” but protein synthesis and linked metabolic processes are causally antecedent to self replication and therefore pose a chicken before egg challenge especially for origin of life.

Comments
This type of fallacy is often used in neuroscience when dealing with the hard problem of the consciousness.
You may be surprised to learn that there is no"hard problem of consciousness" if you are referring to Chalmers. But I guess that is off-topic. Don't get me started on free will and determinism, either.Alan Fox
September 3, 2022
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His conceptions are cemented in the past and are immune to any modern concept of genetics and biochemistry.
Oh, the irony! :) :) :)Alan Fox
September 3, 2022
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THE UNIVERSAl FEATURES OF CELLS ON EARTH 2 All Cells Store Their Hereditary Information in the Same Linear Chemical Code: DNA 2 All Cells Replicate Their Hereditary Information by Templated Polymerization 3 All Cells Transcribe Portions of Their Hereditary Information into the Same Intermediary Form: RNA 4 All Cells Use Proteins as Catalysts 5 All Cells Translate RNA into Protein in the Same Way 6 Each Protein Is Encoded by a Specific Gene 7
I don't dispute any of this, KF. Especially not "templated polymerization"! ;) ETA: all strong indicators of common descent, BTW!Alan Fox
September 3, 2022
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LCD, the biochem of 1953 was decisive and a responsible person would acknowledge seventy years of development summarised in say Lehninger or Alberts and echoed as far down the food chain as Dawkins or Wikipedia. KFkairosfocus
September 3, 2022
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Kairosfocus We are dealing with brazen lying by gaslighting because the significance of coded algorithmic information in the cell is plainly devastating.
The reason could be the old age and not necessary the lying. He knows about the biochemistry of 1950 and about Darwin books (1860-80) and he probably lost connection with modern biochemistry and genetics. His conceptions are cemented in the past and are immune to any modern concept of genetics and biochemistry.Lieutenant Commander Data
September 3, 2022
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F/N: To give you an idea of just how outrageous and irresponsible AF's rhetorical stunt is, here is Alberts et al, Molecular Biology of the Cell, DETAILED TABLE OF CONTENTS, p. xxi; yes, chapter and section titles:
Chapter 1 Cells and Genomes 1 THE UNIVERSAl FEATURES OF CELLS ON EARTH 2 All Cells Store Their Hereditary Information in the Same Linear Chemical Code: DNA 2 All Cells Replicate Their Hereditary Information by Templated Polymerization 3 All Cells Transcribe Portions of Their Hereditary Information into the Same Intermediary Form: RNA 4 All Cells Use Proteins as Catalysts 5 All Cells Translate RNA into Protein in the Same Way 6 Each Protein Is Encoded by a Specific Gene 7 [6rh Edn, 2015]
Sounds familiar? It should. We are dealing with brazen lying by gaslighting because the significance of coded algorithmic information in the cell is plainly devastating. KFkairosfocus
September 3, 2022
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AF, there is no good reason to deny code and algorithms in the cell. Where, such ride on a physical technology, they are not in opposition to it nor are they reducible to it. As you have been claiming all sorts of things, I again remind you of the matter of fact approach in Lehninger
"The information in DNA is encoded in its linear (one-dimensional) sequence of deoxyribonucleotide subunits . . . . A linear sequence of deoxyribonucleotides in DNA codes (through an intermediary, RNA) for the production of a protein with a corresponding linear sequence of amino acids . . . Although the final shape of the folded protein is dictated by its amino acid sequence, the folding of many proteins is aided by “molecular chaperones” . . . The precise three-dimensional structure, or native conformation, of the protein is crucial to its function." [Principles of Biochemistry, 8th Edn, 2021, pp 194 – 5. Now authored by Nelson, Cox et al, Lehninger having passed on in 1986. Attempts to rhetorically pretend on claimed superior knowledge of Biochemistry, that D/RNA does not contain coded information expressing algorithms using string data structures, collapse. We now have to address the implications of language, goal directed stepwise processes and underlying sophisticated polymer chemistry and molecular nanotech in the heart of cellular metabolism and replication.]
You have gone out on a rhetorical limb to pretend it is ignoramuses etc who imagine code is in the cell. Well, Lehninger [now a committee] -- yes, Lehninger -- is one of your ignoramuses. Fail. Gaslighting fail. KFkairosfocus
September 3, 2022
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@AF First, you can encode things in MANY different mediums. Saying it’s a biochemical process does NOTHING for your argument that it is not code. This type of fallacy is often used in neuroscience when dealing with the hard problem of the consciousness Yes we can break “seeing the color red” down to its neural correlates but that does nothing to actually explain why we experience the color red. Using reductionism doesn’t help your point. Second, the highly debated RNA world hypothesis can’t say anything it’s a hypothetical organic chemical process, since we like to take things literally Thirdly, for someone who said you are kinda qualified to discuss biochemistry you have yet to put a single real objection using your knowledge to discredit anything KF has posted You have dismissed out of hand, mocked, or have simply been passive aggressive to everything he has posted but nothing to academically dismiss the argument. You can however excuse his ignorance……. Any lay person would not be able to extrapolate any evidence that you had knowledge in organic chemistry or any school of chemistry. So what real evidence to you have that would discredit the concept of DNA being organic code used universally amongst all living organisms on this planet?AaronS1978
September 3, 2022
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Unless you agree human language is a completely physicochemical set of processes, which of course it is. ;)Alan Fox
September 3, 2022
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...editing in Eukaryotes is a direct language process.
No it isn't. It's a physicochemical process. If you want to insist on an analogy with human language or computer language, go ahead. It adds nothing to the understanding of the process of the origins, evolution or current functions of this biological set of systems. [ED: The doubling down continues, and keeps on going below exactly as the headline to OP predicted . . . KF]Alan Fox
September 2, 2022
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F/N: AmHD:
al·go·rithm (?l?g?-r?th??m) n. A finite set of unambiguous instructions that, given some set of initial conditions, can be performed in a prescribed sequence to achieve a certain goal and that has a recognizable set of end conditions.
That is a finite stepwise sequence from start to halt that completes. This is a matter of instance, not analogy. For record, FYI. KFkairosfocus
September 2, 2022
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F/N: See OP updates on mRNA synthesis and structure.kairosfocus
September 2, 2022
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AF, lying by distraction, doubling down, gaslighting and obfuscation. You full well know there is coded stepwise -- thus algorithmic -- synthesis of AA chains towards proteins using mRNA, as Lehninger et al openly acknowledge, as even Dawkins and Wikipedia admit. KF PS, even the assembly of mRNA has a stepwise aspect and editing in Eukaryotes is a direct language process.kairosfocus
September 2, 2022
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RR at 37, It's not logical. It makes no sense. You should understand that the idea that living things contain codes and switches, for example, that control their life functions is known by those here. They can never promote it or agree with it. The idea of a designer who made living things points to a Creator, to God. That idea must be denied. They have no choice. It would harm atheism if people accepted this.relatd
September 2, 2022
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Millions of positive and negative charges on a magnetic strip have no meaning. Yet the series may carry vast amounts of information. Darwinists would have us believe both the digital stream and the magnetic strip are results of random, non-directed events which exist because "survival of the fittest". Oh, they don't believe that? Except, that is exactly what they believe when the storage and medium are biological. The "thinking" required to believe such nonsense is insanity.Red Reader
September 2, 2022
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You full well know that the pivotal process is where mRNA, bearing a coded algorithm, is used to assemble AA chains towards proteins, as is illustrated in the first figure in the OP.
I know full well that in living cells, messenger RNA is a vital element in protein synthesis, copied from a DNA template, the gene, and via the machinery of the ribosome, is used as a template for the synthesis of a protein. At no stage is there anything algorithmic going on. That is just in your head. [ED: Further doubling down and refusal to attend to correction. Note the gaslighting declaration in the teeth of the general recognition that coded information in D/RNA is used in protein synthesis. Where, Ribosome action involves a start, elongation step by step as an AA chain is assembled and halting using one of three stop codes. Algorithms are goal directed, stepwise finite processes with halting. AF refuses to heed this, in his attempt to dismiss a fact that is fatal to his preferred view. KF]Alan Fox
September 2, 2022
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Seversky at 29, "It’s only very recently that the churches have become a little nervous about an alternative, naturalistic explanation proposed by science that might be credible enough to affect the numbers of bums on pews." That's your concern? The "numbers of bums on pews."? We'll make a Christian out of you yet Seversky. Or would you prefer more atheist converts via science?relatd
September 2, 2022
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PPPS, US NSTA's educational malpractice:
All those involved with science teaching and learning should have a common, accurate view of the nature of science. [--> yes but a question-begging ideological imposition is not an accurate view] Science is characterized by the systematic gathering of information through various forms of direct and indirect observations and the testing of this information by methods including, but not limited to, experimentation [--> correct so far]. The principal product of science is knowledge in the form of naturalistic concepts [--> evolutionary materialistic scientism is imposed] and the laws and theories related to those [--> i.e. ideologically loaded, evolutionary materialistic] concepts . . . . science, along with its methods, explanations and generalizations, must be the sole focus of instruction in science classes to the exclusion of all non-scientific or pseudoscientific methods, explanations, generalizations and products [--> censorship of anything that challenges the imposition; fails to appreciate that scientific methods are studied through logic, epistemology and philosophy of science, which are philosophy not science] . . . . Although no single universal step-by-step scientific method captures the complexity of doing science [--> a good point, but fails to see that this brings to bear many philosophical issues], a number of shared values and perspectives characterize a scientific approach to understanding nature. Among these are a demand for naturalistic explanations [--> outright ideological imposition and censorship that fetters freedom of responsible thought] supported by empirical evidence [--> the imposition controls how evidence is interpreted and that's why blind watchmaker mechanisms never seen to actually cause FSCO/I have default claim to explain it in the world of life] that are, at least in principle, testable against the natural world. Other shared elements include observations, rational argument [--> ideological imposition may hide under a cloak of rationality but is in fact anti-rational], inference, skepticism [--> critical awareness is responsible, selective hyperskepticism backed by ideological censorship is not], peer review [--> a circle of ideologues in agreement has no probative value] and replicability of work . . . . Science, by definition, is limited to naturalistic [= evolutionary materialistic scientism is imposed by definition, locking out an unfettered search for the credibly warranted truth about our world i/l/o observational evidence and linked inductive reasoning] methods and explanations and, as such [--> notice, ideological imposition by question-begging definition], is precluded from using supernatural elements [--> sets up a supernatural vs natural strawman alternative when the proper contrast since Plato in The Laws, Bk X, is natural vs artificial] in the production of scientific knowledge. [US NSTA Board, July 2000, definition of the nature of science for education purposes]
kairosfocus
September 1, 2022
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PPS, Lewontin's cat out of the bag moment:
[Lewontin:] . . . to put a correct [--> Just who here presume to cornering the market on truth and so demand authority to impose?] view of the universe into people's heads
[==> as in, "we" the radically secularist elites have cornered the market on truth, warrant and knowledge, making "our" "consensus" the yardstick of truth . . . where of course "view" is patently short for WORLDVIEW . . . and linked cultural agenda . . . ]
we must first get an incorrect view out [--> as in, if you disagree with "us" of the secularist elite you are wrong, irrational and so dangerous you must be stopped, even at the price of manipulative indoctrination of hoi polloi] . . . the problem is to get them [= hoi polloi] to reject irrational and supernatural explanations of the world [--> "explanations of the world" is yet another synonym for WORLDVIEWS; the despised "demon[ic]" "supernatural" being of course an index of animus towards ethical theism and particularly the Judaeo-Christian faith tradition], the demons that exist only in their imaginations,
[ --> as in, to think in terms of ethical theism is to be delusional, justifying "our" elitist and establishment-controlling interventions of power to "fix" the widespread mental disease]
and to accept a social and intellectual apparatus, Science, as the only begetter of truth
[--> NB: this is a knowledge claim about knowledge and its possible sources, i.e. it is a claim in philosophy not science; it is thus self-refuting]
. . . . To Sagan, as to all but a few other scientists [--> "we" are the dominant elites], it is self-evident
[--> actually, science and its knowledge claims are plainly not immediately and necessarily true on pain of absurdity, to one who understands them; this is another logical error, begging the question , confused for real self-evidence; whereby a claim shows itself not just true but true on pain of patent absurdity if one tries to deny it . . . and in fact it is evolutionary materialism that is readily shown to be self-refuting]
that the practices of science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality [--> = all of reality to the evolutionary materialist], and that, in contrast, the demon-haunted world rests on a set of beliefs and behaviors that fail every reasonable test [--> i.e. an assertion that tellingly reveals a hostile mindset, not a warranted claim] . . . . It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us [= the evo-mat establishment] to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes [--> another major begging of the question . . . ] to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute [--> i.e. here we see the fallacious, indoctrinated, ideological, closed mind . . . ], for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door . . . [--> irreconcilable hostility to ethical theism, already caricatured as believing delusionally in imaginary demons]. [Lewontin, Billions and billions of Demons, NYRB Jan 1997,cf. here. And, if you imagine this is "quote-mined" I invite you to read the fuller annotated citation here.]
kairosfocus
September 1, 2022
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Sev, there is no sound naturalistic alternative. I refer you to the Haldane challenge. KF PS, Haldane
[JBSH, REFACTORED AS SKELETAL, AUGMENTED PROPOSITIONS:] "It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For
if [p:] my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain [–> taking in DNA, epigenetics and matters of computer organisation, programming and dynamic-stochastic processes; notice, "my brain," i.e. self referential] ______________________________ [ THEN] [q:] I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. [--> indeed, blindly mechanical computation is not in itself a rational process, the only rationality is the canned rationality of the programmer, where survival-filtered lucky noise is not a credible programmer, note the functionally specific, highly complex organised information rich code and algorithms in D/RNA, i.e. language and goal directed stepwise process . . . an observationally validated adequate source for such is _____ ?] [Corollary 1:] They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence [Corollary 2:] I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. [--> grand, self-referential delusion, utterly absurd self-falsifying incoherence] [Implied, Corollary 3: Reason and rationality collapse in a grand delusion, including of course general, philosophical, logical, ontological and moral knowledge; reductio ad absurdum, a FAILED, and FALSE, intellectually futile and bankrupt, ruinously absurd system of thought.]
In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” ["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209. Cf. here on (and esp here) on the self-refutation by self-falsifying self referential incoherence and on linked amorality.]
That needs to be cogently answered, on pain of exposing the imposed Lewontinian a priori evolutionary materialistic scientism as outright agit prop educational malpractice. No intellectual scheme of thought can be valid if it self referentially undermines credibility of mind and/or rational, responsible [so, morally governed] freedom.kairosfocus
September 1, 2022
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AF, distraction as usual. You full well know that the pivotal process is where mRNA, bearing a coded algorithm, is used to assemble AA chains towards proteins, as is illustrated in the first figure in the OP. You have been making a rhetorical song and dance to pretend that code and algorithm and perhaps even string data structure are incorrect and ignorant usage of terms and concepts. At length, I took time to cite Lehninger, perhaps the classic text on Biochem, current edn, in 18 above. Lo and behold, your bluffing, rhetorical song and dance collapses:
"The information in DNA is encoded in its linear (one-dimensional) sequence of deoxyribonucleotide subunits . . . . A linear sequence of deoxyribonucleotides in DNA codes (through an intermediary, RNA) for the production of a protein with a corresponding linear sequence of amino acids . . . Although the final shape of the folded protein is dictated by its amino acid sequence, the folding of many proteins is aided by “molecular chaperones” . . . The precise three-dimensional structure, or native conformation, of the protein is crucial to its function."
Your reaction? You try to switch over to templating [used to form complementary D/RNA strands, not stepwise code based assembly of protein AA chains], as though you have not been duly, thoroughly corrected. So, which is it, gross discrediting ignorance on your part, or was it a willfully deceptive irresponsible bluff. Of course, you full well know that coded algorithms make all the difference, being an expression of language and communication systems, with goal directed stepwise processes. In the heart of the cell and antecedent to its metabolism and self replication. Proteins, including enzymes, are proverbially the work horses of the cell. Language, goal-directed stepwise process, involving sophisticated polymer chemistry and molecular nanotech. Transformational. KFkairosfocus
September 1, 2022
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There is not a single discovery in biology/genetics that won't use ID stance(mindset) as a starting point for exploration.Lieutenant Commander Data
September 1, 2022
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Relatd/25
The real problem here is making sure ID is not taught in schools AND does not become popular with the common people.
The irony with that comment is that the Christian version of ID was popular with the common people for thousands of years because it was the only story taught in the schools and churches in Europe for all that time. It's only very recently that the churches have become a little nervous about an alternative, naturalistic explanation proposed by science that might be credible enough to affect the numbers of bums on pews.Seversky
September 1, 2022
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Relatd/23
The Catholic Church can combine scientific information with Theology. Science, as constituted, cannot. • The Church “proclaims that by the light of reason the human intellect can readily and clearly discern purpose and design in the natural world, including the world of living things.” • “Any system of thought that denies or seeks to explain away the overwhelming evidence for design in biology is ideology, not science.”
In other words, we're right, you're wrong and if you disagree it's ideology not science. That about sums it up?Seversky
September 1, 2022
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Atheists will be exposed, will they? Sounds nasty! ;)Alan Fox
September 1, 2022
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The real problem here is making sure ID is not taught in schools ..
What would you teach? I've been asking for some idea of the content of "Intelligent Design" science and haven't got much feedback on substance.
...AND does not become popular with the common people.
Well, there's no chance of that where I live. The US is a very odd place looking on from outside.Alan Fox
September 1, 2022
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AF at 24, Not "works for you". The real problem here is making sure ID is not taught in schools AND does not become popular with the common people. It is easy to see that IF it is taught that it will go beyond the classroom. It will get people thinking about God. It will tell people, someone made all life. That must be stopped. It can't happen. Why? Because the Marxist-Atheists will be exposed.relatd
September 1, 2022
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If it works for you, fine.Alan Fox
September 1, 2022
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AF at 22, The Catholic Church can combine scientific information with Theology. Science, as constituted, cannot. • The Church “proclaims that by the light of reason the human intellect can readily and clearly discern purpose and design in the natural world, including the world of living things.” • “Any system of thought that denies or seeks to explain away the overwhelming evidence for design in biology is ideology, not science.” "Christoph Cardinal Schönborn is archbishop of Vienna and general editor of the Catechism of the Catholic Church."relatd
September 1, 2022
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Could be from the Creator of the Universe. It's one way to imbue creation with a creator. I don't know and I guess there's no way to find out.Alan Fox
September 1, 2022
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