Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

On “seeing” — credibly knowing about — the invisible in science

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Yesterday, following up from recent comment exchanges, I posted about the electron as an example of how we routinely deal with the invisible in science, and on how inductive — believe it or not that is now a fighting word — inference on sign is vital to science.

This morning, I followed up on a remark by Joe in the UB thread that extends the same theme.

I think this should be headlined, so let me clip (quickly, as I do have a draft to follow up on):

____________

>>I have a draft speech to follow up on, but could not resist this:

[Joe:] the [Darwinist/Evolutionary Materialist] response is always “Eons of time cannot be reproduced in a lab and all we have is eons of time to hide behind. Oh and a bunch of promissory notes”

This brings to front-centre, the issue of the unobservable in science I headlined yesterday with the classic Tek 465 CRO as an illustration of how we infer to the unobserved in science per inductive warrant. (Which surfaces the pivotal importance of that syllabus of 18 Q’s.)

Electronics is built on the electron, which is accepted as very real, even a fact of day to day life, though unobserved or even unobservable. We simply see too many convergent effects that cry out for the electron as common cause.

Oil Drop Expt: the drops take charges that are multiples of e, warranting inference to a “lump” of negative charge, the electron

 

We are as a result morally certain of its reality, though what we actually see are things like little drops of oil in a Millikan oil drop exercise, drifting up/down as we try to balance the voltage against gravity. (I well recall my own frustrations working with a lab set for replicating that classic exercise!)

Or, we may see curlicues of bubbles in a bubble chamber or droplets of cloud in a cloud chamber, or of course the trace on a CRO’s phosphor screen.

The inferred, convergent, best explanation is the electron.

Never yet directly seen, and probably never will be, but an accepted fact of life from its effects.

Let’s clip someone politically incorrect on that sort of thinking:

Jn 3:3 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him.”

3 In reply Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.[a]”

4 “How can a man be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb to be born!”

5 Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[c] must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.

10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? 11 I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.[d] 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.[e]

16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[f] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him . . . 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.”[h][NIV, cf here on in context and here on in context for a 101 look at some of the warranting context]

Uh huh, believing in the invisible can make a lot of good sense, to those willing to be docile — teachable — before the evidence. No promises for the willfully defiant who will resort to selectively hyperskeptical objections and cling to any absurdity to protect a cherished materialism proudly flying the false flag of science. (And denizens of TSZ et al, that is an exercise of the right of fair comment on responsible investigation.)

In science, too, we often need to assess the reality of the unobserved.

As I have repeatedly pointed out, where that addresses something like origins, that is done by inference to best current explanation in light of traces of the unobserved and cause-effect patterns and characteristic signs we can and do observe in the present. Where, if we know that per repeated experiment a certain causal factor reliably leaves certain characteristic signs, then it is reasonable to infer from sign to associated cause per that body of investigation. I have long used the case of inferring deer from deer tracks as an illustrative case on the logic involved.

What happens, as was already discussed, is that the living cell is full of FSCO/I, which is a characteristic trace of IDOW — intelligently directed organising work, i.e. design. So, if we see FSCO/I, we are properly entitled to infer to design as cause, given what we observe and what we can see on the needle in the haystack analysis.

The verbal stunts and rhetorical gymnastics we have seen for years from those disinclined to accept so simple a pattern of thought, and the number of spurious counter-examples put forth tell us that the inference is obviously cogent and well warranted.

Why it is controversial is not because it is well warranted, but because it is cutting clean across an entrenched ideology that likes to dress up in a lab coat and loves to fly the flag of science, evolutionary materialism, for descriptive convenience. (And yes, TSZ, that is just a descriptive term, and accurate one.)

So, it is time for some serious rethinking that requires leaving the materialist cave of shadow shows and clearing he mind from the poisonous influences of the smoke of burning ad hominem laced strawmen.>>

_____________

So, in science, we can learn to see the invisible, and to have well-warranted high confidence in its reality. Which is of course another way of saying, knowledge, in the weaker sense: well warranted, credibly true belief.

So, we see here inference to best current explanation on observed evidence giving us scientific knowledge regarding what we did not actually see.

So, it is quite reasonable to infer in science to the invisible but warranted, on empirical traces and an observed pattern of characteristic signs.

All that we design thinkers are asking for, then is willingness to be consistent on the observation that FSCO/I is observed to be a characteristic sign of IDOW as key causal factor. Design, in one word.

Is that too much to ask? END

Comments
Thank you Kairosfocus [Welcome, let's see if TA is even inclined to pay attention to the evidence he plainly so confidently demanded as he did not expect it to be there. KF]Joe
September 18, 2012
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timothya sez:
In this case, you claim that the laws of physics are designed. Fine. Produce the evidence.
The evidence has been produced- Walter Bradley has written about it. Just because you are ignorant of the evidence doesn't mean it doesn't exist. OTOH all your position can say about those laws is "they just are (the way they are)"- Hwking in "A Briefer History of Time"Joe
September 18, 2012
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TA: Evidence of cosmological design per fine tuning that enables C-chemistry, aqueous medium cell based life, 101, as already repeatedly linked (and as posted here at UD over a year ago). Note, the onward links on far more detailed and elaborate discussions. Beyond those, are the many serious articles in the academic literature. KFkairosfocus
September 18, 2012
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Joe posted this:
What does THAT even mean? Why is that even a requirement?
It was a question prompted by this post of yours:
Once the laws are designed and implemented it would be hands-off, duh.
Simple really. If you claim that a proposition is true, then back it up with evidence. In this case, you claim that the laws of physics are designed. Fine. Produce the evidence. (It is possible that you are presuming the truth of something that you need to explain. But that is unlikely, isn't it.)timothya
September 18, 2012
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Any evidence of the nature of your designer?
ID is NOT about the designer(s) and we don't know who the designer(s) were.
Any evidence of your designer’s origin?
No one knows if the designer had nor needed an origin
Method of operation?
I already covered that. Do you think your ignorance means something?
Your designer’s purpose?
How is that relevant?Joe
September 18, 2012
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timothya posted this:
Got any evidence for the prior design of the laws of physics?
What does THAT even mean? Why is that even a requirement?
Any evidence of the nature of your designer? </blockq
Joe
September 18, 2012
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Yes, timohya, it is obvious that you don't have any evidence to support your position and all you can do is act like a belligerent little child. Your parents must be very proud...Joe
September 18, 2012
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I posted this:
Got any evidence for the prior design of the laws of physics? Any evidence of the nature of your designer? Any evidence of your designer’s origin? Method of operation? Your designer’s purpose? Any reason to believe that your idea is anything other than armwaving bafflepoop?
Joe responded with this:
Do YOU have any evidnece for your position? Any at all? I thought not. Obvioulsy all YOU have is to flail about.
I guess that means no, you don't have any evidence. Thanks for the clarification.timothya
September 18, 2012
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Got any evidence for the prior design of the laws of physics?
Do YOU have any evidnece for your position? Any at all? I thought not. Obvioulsy all YOU have is to flail about.Joe
September 18, 2012
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Joe posted this:
Once the laws are designed and implemented it would be hands-off, duh.
Got any evidence for the prior design of the laws of physics? Any evidence of the nature of your designer? Any evidence of your designer's origin? Method of operation? Your designer's purpose? Any reason to believe that your idea is anything other than armwaving bafflepoop?timothya
September 18, 2012
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BTW timothya, evolutionism relies on our ignorance- it is full of ignorance dividends....Joe
September 18, 2012
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Those laws of physics are evidnece for a designer.
Interesting idea – that would require your designer to intervene in every single quantum event everywhere and at every time in the history of the universe to ensure the collective outcome happens to end up where we are.
No, it would not. Why would you even suggest such a thing? Once the laws are designed and implemented it would be hands-off, duh. And guess what? Arachaeologists have artifcats that they don’t know how it was done.
So your conclusion is that we should construct explanations for reality on the basis of what we don’t know?
Non-sequitur. Perhaps you should just go back to bed.Joe
September 18, 2012
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Joe posted this:
Those laws of physics are evidnece for a designer.
Interesting idea - that would require your designer to intervene in every single quantum event everywhere and at every time in the history of the universe to ensure the collective outcome happens to end up where we are. Are you sure you want to argue that viewpoint? And this:
And guess what? Arachaeologists have artifcats that they don’t know how it was done.
So your conclusion is that we should construct explanations for reality on the basis of what we don't know? Let's call it The Ignorance Dividend. Celebrate the ID!timothya
September 18, 2012
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timothya:
I wouldn’t postulate such an agency, since none is required to explain the fact of nature (formalised in the laws of physics).
Those laws of physics are evidnece for a designer.
If ID is unable to provide any insight into how (or in some cases why) a designer pursued a particular course, or even of the nature (or intentions) of that designer, then its project reduces to saying “it is designed, well, because it is designed”.
Well timmy the ONLY possible way to make any scientific determination as to the how, in the absence of direct obsrvation or designer input, is by studying the design in question. And guess what? Arachaeologists have artifcats that they don't know how it was done.Joe
September 18, 2012
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Actually, I think of ID as the old-fashioned lift attendant. "Ground floor, haberdashery, millinery and foundation garments. Which floor, sir/madam? The eighth floor? Sorry, I don't have a button for that one. You'll have to get out and walk up the stairs."timothya
September 18, 2012
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timothya, Think of ID as the medical examiner. We rule out "natural" causes. We don't get into who did it or why. That's up to the detectives, provided the death is ruled a homicide.Mung
September 17, 2012
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Axel posted this:
Does it seem to you a fair assumption that photons, would not, themselves, compute and adjust their speed of travel to ‘hit’ the Observer at their absolute speed, irrespective of the speed of the latter’s travel in the same direction? If so, what omniscient, omnipotent agency, taking a personal interest in the Observer – as would be required – would you postulate?
I wouldn't postulate such an agency, since none is required to explain the fact of nature (formalised in the laws of physics). In other words, that's how matter and energy behave in this particular universe. To add a requirement for an omniscient, omnipotent agency to the explanation would be to pile up entities unnecessarily. However, I will take up an earlier point:
Jerad, timothya, critical rationalist, et innombrables confreres, why not consider the term, ‘design’ qua ‘plan’, ‘scheme’, ‘plot’ – with the additional dimension of time (and necessarily, purpose, of course)?
Excellent idea. In fact that is precisely the approach that science takes when grappling with the relationship between causes and effects (including those involving conscious, intentional, purposeful causes). It is a matter of science to attempt to understand the nature of a cause, its constitution, its origin, its mode and methods of operation, and in the case of a conscious cause, its intention or purpose. The weird thing is: ID refuses to do so. In fact, it explicitly rules out such questions (quoted from Discovery Institute’s Casey Luskin, in turn quoting from Stephen Meyer’s Signature in The Cell):
The theory of intelligent design does not claim to detect a supernatural intelligence possessing unlimited powers. Though the designing agent responsible for life may well have been an omnipotent deity, the theory of intelligent design does not claim to be able to determine that. Because the inference to design depends upon our uniform experience of cause and effect in this world, the theory cannot determine whether or not the designing intelligence putatively responsible for life has powers beyond those on display in our experience. Nor can the theory of intelligent design determine whether the intelligent agent responsible for information life acted from the natural or the "supernatural" realm. Instead, the theory of intelligent design merely claims to detect the action of some intelligent cause (with power, at least, equivalent to those we know from experience) and affirms this because we know from experience that only conscious, intelligent agents produce large amounts of specified information. The theory of intelligent design does not claim to be able to determine the identity or any other attributes of that intelligence, even if philosophical deliberation or additional evidence from other disciplines may provide reasons to consider, for example, a specifically theistic design hypothesis.
If ID is unable to provide any insight into how (or in some cases why) a designer pursued a particular course, or even of the nature (or intentions) of that designer, then its project reduces to saying “it is designed, well, because it is designed”. This is one of the reasons why scientists say that ID doesn’t actually explain anything, and also why it is an unscientific activity. I can't resist asking why you used the term "innombrables" in your contribution. Is it because "we" are members of an uncountably large community (hmmm, maybe we are doing something right), or because you can't count? Not judging, just asking.timothya
September 17, 2012
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Evamolution?Axel
September 17, 2012
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Jerad, timothya, critical rationalist, et innombrables confreres, why not consider the term, 'design' qua 'plan', 'scheme', 'plot' - with the additional dimension of time (and necessarily, purpose, of course)? Does it seem to you a fair assumption that photons, would not, themselves, compute and adjust their speed of travel to 'hit' the Observer at their absolute speed, irrespective of the speed of the latter's travel in the same direction? If so, what omniscient, omnipotent agency, taking a personal interest in the Observer - as would be required - would you postulate?Axel
September 17, 2012
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timothya: I defy anyone to make sense of this. I challenge you to defend induction and science.Mung
September 17, 2012
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TA: Simply observe the above thread, and in particular the exchange with CR now across several threads. Pay particular attention to the case of Milikan's oil drop experiment and the inductive establishment of the reality, charge and mass of the electron -- scroll up to the OP. KFkairosfocus
September 17, 2012
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I defy anyone to make sense out of timothyaJoe
September 17, 2012
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Joe posted this:
There is one group of people who claim to be pro-science, ie the anti-IDists. There is another group of people who those anti-IDists say are anti-science, ie the IDists. Yet it is the IDists who seem to understand how science works and the anti-IDists are just clueless.
I defy anyone to make sense of this.timothya
September 17, 2012
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timothya- Let me try to help you- There is one group of people who claim to be pro-science, ie the anti-IDists. There is another group of people who those anti-IDists say are anti-science, ie the IDists. Yet it is the IDists who seem to understand how science works and the anti-IDists are just clueless. That said, there doesn't seem to be anyone else stepping in and correcting the anti-ID side.Joe
September 17, 2012
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Kairosfocus posted this:
Imagine, onlookers, we are now left to see design thinkers defending the inductive pattern of reasoning used in science from objectors to design. And notice, we don’t seem to see other objectors saying wait a minute, science is indeed such and so.
I defy anyone to make sense of this.timothya
September 17, 2012
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CR: Let me address:
Mere intelligence does not stick it’s neck out in a way that allows us to make progress via this valid form of deduction. It’s as if you think the biosphere was created in a way that makes a theory of biological complexity impossible. As such, you refuse to reformulate this intelligence in a way that allows us to make progress. However, this would be like suggesting atoms were created in such a way that atomic theory is impossible or that objects move in such a way that makes a theory of their movement impossible. Why is the biosphere any different?
Have you taken time to see even a snippet of what has been put forward as to why Functionally Specific complex organisation and/or associated information [FSCO/I] is held to be an empirically reliable, trusted sign of intelligence? (The linked case includes a discussion of how this is so used in a literally life or death situation, on a routine basis.) Have you even considered that, once we move to the world of empirical facts, we are no longer in the neat abstract world where valid deductions are good enough to establish chains of proofs? That is, we face the issue of needing to have a reasonable base of observations and credible summaries and explanations of patterns that are the messy stuff or real world inductive reasoning. We have billions of cases in point in libraries, in our life experiences, a whole industry of informatics, and more across 5,000 years of recorded history [the very existence of written record is an illustration of the point], backed up by the needle in the haystack, infinite monkeys theorem analysis. That is a wide basis on which to infer inductively that we have here found an empirically reliable sign that intelligently directed organising work [IDOW] -- per inference to best current explanation -- is responsible for meaningful symbol patterns and/or complex functionally specific organisation beyond a reasonable threshold. Namely, and as has been discussed in outline here on, that on the gamut of our solar system: Chi_500 = I*S - 500, bits beyond the threshold That is, once we see at least 500 bits of FSCO/I, we have adequate reason to infer that such is not credibly the product of blind chance and mechanical necessity on the gamut of the solar system. That is our practical universe as far as chemical-level interactions goes. (We can go up to 1,000 bits to cover the gamut of our observed universe, but in fact that is being exceedingly generous. A solar system is the practical limit for chemical interactions relevant to formation of cell based aqueous medium life and the like. If something is exceedingly unlikely to form in a solar system, we can take it to the bank that it is exceedingly unlikely to form on the gamut of the observed cosmos.) Now, in fact, intelligence is just as much an empirical fact as any other. And, intelligences are observed to use IDOW to create artifacts, many of which are routinely beyond the FSCO/I threshold, and which exhibit the relevant patterns. That is evidence that design is possible and a mechanism of causation. Thus, it is reasonable to accept it as an explanatory candidate in explaining origin of relevant objects. Now, of course, not all cases of intelligent activity will manifest FSCO/I and it is possible for an intelligence to seek to conceal its work. It is also possible for an intelligence to use chance based random walks as a means of adapting a designed self replicating entity to a varying environment. Indeed, robustness is a superior real world criterion to artificial optimisation to an ideal circumstance. (Notice in linear etc programming, post optimality analysis that looks at robustness of solutions, no prizes for guessing why.) But all of that is tangential, even distractively so to the point of the red herring fallacy. For, we are dealing with a well established empirically reliable sign of design, and we are dealing with cell based life forms that are chock full of that sign, FSCO/I. So, what is relevant is whether we can reasonably trust the sign. A wide body of experience says yes. And, the very fact of the convoluted and strawman tactic based objections to induction that are now being put on the table, is strong evidence that there are no serious counter-examples. Imagine, onlookers, we are now left to see design thinkers defending the inductive pattern of reasoning used in science from objectors to design. And notice, we don't seem to see other objectors saying wait a minute, science is indeed such and so. That speaks volumes on what was meant when such were flying the flag of science in claiming to have objections to design on science. KFkairosfocus
September 17, 2012
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CR: A quick initial response to your general tenor. Have you even bothered to read what I have been writing in any true sense beyond passing eyes over to pick up snips to snipe at rhetorically? As of now, it does not look like that is so. I say this to your shame. Have you not noticed that long since I have explicitly addressed the affirming the consequent issue [as a personal note, over 25 years ago in writing, and before that in my personal thinking as I found the discussions of it in works I saw inadequate . . . ], and used that as part of why inference to best current explanation on comparative difficulties and in light of observed evidence is pivotal to the process of science? And, have you seen why "current" is there, i.e. the result is provisional? Did you then see that I have cited both Locke and Newton to show that they were aware of this challenge to and limitation of human knowledge claims and pretensions, 300+ years ago? Can you not see that part of the very reason why I speak of knowledge as warranted, credibly true belief is that I am aware of this limitation, and of the range in degree of warrant that attaches to knowledge claims as a result? (Do us all a favour, kindly read here and reflect on it. Include, watching the vids. That way, you will at least avoid tilting at a strawman.) In short, are you even aware that scientific knowledge claims at explanatory level are inherently weaker than say those of a self-evident truth like 2 + 3 = 5? Do you not see that this is indeed a principle of induction, that experience based knowledge claims -- and if we are to access specific facts of external reality and integrate them in our knowledge, we must access such -- face the issues of the limitations of inductive reasoning? It sure looks like you have set up yet another strawman, a demand that induction provide an equivalent degree of warrant as can be so of deduction. But, so soon as deduction tries to engage external reality, it too runs into the limitations of induction. That is why I have looked carefully at the generally accepted modern understanding of induction: it is the form of argument that addresses evidence that supports its conclusions, but is not held to demonstrate them. Such warrant comes in degrees, and can amount to moral certainty in important cases. Milikan's establishment of the reality, charge and mass of the electron is a case in point. A Nobel Prize winning one, as it turns out, cf. 24 above from Sept 15. And this case gives the lie to your assertions on the lack of ability of inductive reasoning to establish a conclusion to be more probable than not, or to have a probability value assigned to it per the strength of the support given. As pointed out -- I notice how you are dodging the post above, no 24, where the facts are laid out for you to address -- Milikan established the reality of the electron to moral certainty, by showing how oil drops under observation for hours at a time amidst ions in the air, changed their charge in stepwise increments of a certain negative charge. In the published case I linked, a certain immortalised drop changed in increments from 4 to 17 e, save for 15 e, across about four hours. (And BTW, having struggled with a lab version of the apparatus, I assure you that the bare facts reported speak to experimental virtuosity that is almost unbelievable, similar to the concert pianist hitting 120 perfect notes per minute on a piece known by heart for hours at a time.) This case and many many others like it established by direct observation, that change is observed to vary in stepwise uniform increments. It further established that the scale of those increments was a certain value to within 1/2% of the value. This can be taken as a +/- three-sigma range, which is (per the likely relevant Gaussian error distribution) a 99.7% probability range. From the value of e so determined and Thomson's e/m ratio established otherwise, Milikan was able to deduce the mass of the electron. He then exploited the concept that we experience a uniformity in the world that we have a right to extend in absence of contrary evidence -- per Newton's rules of reasoning, etc. -- and drew up a confident, empirically reliable inductive generalisation without needing to observe every electron in the cosmos. Which of course is yet another bugbear for you. Let me cite Avi Sion to you yet again, who sets the matter out aptly (this is not a case of blind adherence to authorities, as you seem to want to project; FYI, William G Perry was simply grossly wrong in his dismissive mischaracteristation of authority and naive promotion of radical relativism and partisan commitment):
We might . . . ask – can there be a world without any ‘uniformities’? A world of universal difference, with no two things the same in any respect whatever is unthinkable. Why? Because to so characterize the world would itself be an appeal to uniformity. A uniformly non-uniform world is a contradiction in terms. Therefore, we must admit some uniformity to exist in the world. The world need not be uniform throughout, for the principle of uniformity to apply. It suffices that some uniformity occurs. Given this degree of uniformity, however small, we logically can and must talk about generalization and particularization. There happens to be some ‘uniformities’; therefore, we have to take them into consideration in our construction of knowledge. The principle of uniformity is thus not a wacky notion, as Hume seems to imply . . . . The uniformity principle is not a generalization of generalization; it is not a statement guilty of circularity, as some critics contend. So what is it? Simply this: when we come upon some uniformity in our experience or thought, we may readily assume that uniformity to continue onward until and unless we find some evidence or reason that sets a limit to it. Why? Because in such case the assumption of uniformity already has a basis, whereas the contrary assumption of difference has not or not yet been found to have any. The generalization has some justification; whereas the particularization has none at all, it is an arbitrary assertion. It cannot be argued that we may equally assume the contrary assumption (i.e. the proposed particularization) on the basis that in past events of induction other contrary assumptions have turned out to be true (i.e. for which experiences or reasons have indeed been adduced) – for the simple reason that such a generalization from diverse past inductions is formally excluded by the fact that we know of many cases [[of inferred generalisations; try: "we can make mistakes in inductive generalisation . . . "] that have not been found worthy of particularization to date . . . . If we follow such sober inductive logic, devoid of irrational acts, we can be confident to have the best available conclusions in the present context of knowledge. We generalize when the facts allow it, and particularize when the facts necessitate it. We do not particularize out of context, or generalize against the evidence or when this would give rise to contradictions . . .[[Logical and Spiritual Reflections, BK I Hume's Problems with Induction, Ch 2 The principle of induction.]
Sion actually argues that this is a first principle of right reason, and your performance is showing us why he has a point. So, with all due respect, you seem to have a serious problem being self-critically aware int eh face of countervailing evidence. There is good reason to see, pace your views, that induction is important and inevitable, that it provides degrees of warrant, up to and including moral certainty, and that it is a form of reasoning wherein evidence is given its voice to lead to and support conclusions, even where we may not prove such beyond all doubt per first principles that are undeniable on pain of absurdity. If we were to confine knowledge to such cases, we would face an utterly impoverished picture of the world, and we would be left with a view of what knowledge means that runs utterly contrary to what that term normally means. Well warranted, credibly true claims or explanations can be deemed knowledge, in short. Yes, subject to correction in the face of further reasoning and experience, but such have the burden of proof to show the contrary of the well-founded and empirically reliable views that have been accepted. Which is exactly what Newton said in Opticks, Query 31, 300+ years ago. In short, CR, it is long since high time to stop playing clever strawman games and evasive tactics, and face the evidence and argument in front of you seriously. Start from the analogue CRO with the displayed wave forms in the OP, which are held to be traces pained by electron beams that are hitting a phosphor screen, in a controlled way that allows us to measure amplitude, frequency and other parameters of the wave forms, and thence to deduce bandwidths and frequency spectra etc. Remember, the CRO is a standard instrument, and the analogue CRO is directly dependent on the behaviour of the electron [based on its charge and mass and the thermionic effect] in magnetic and electric fields. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
September 17, 2012
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CR:
Being “the only known”, as in observed, would be an argument from ignorance, even if it were the case.
1. Intelligence is the only known source of iterative code. You now can either support your comment or retract it. (...of course, you will do neither) 2. Under your view, anything that science observes as a 'regularity' is an argument from ignorance. Our universal common experince of phenomena becomes meaningless. As an example; the idea that the Earth orbits the Sun is therefore a faulty explanation. Just because it's the only explanation that can integrate all observations, it is nontheless based upon observations, and as such, we may observe something else tomorrow which may contradict it. - - - - - - This line of reasoning by you is precisely what I was talking about. When universal observation creates a "hard-to-vary" explanation which suits you, your happily integrate it. Yet when is creates a hard-to-vary explanation which you dislike, then it becomes an "argument from ignorance". You equivocate. Now, support your implied comment that some form of intelligence is not the only known source of iterative code.Upright BiPed
September 16, 2012
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As I see it the foundation error in Critical Rationalist's ideas--made clear in thru first few posts-- is one of presumptuousness. CR implies in his statements that the side he is on is the side of critical thinking and science in essence trying to lord over science and take ownership of it and relegate believers in god to a straw man version of "supernaturalism", and this obviously without justification or regard to history when it comes to many great figures of science and their private beliefs. To even suggest that-as KF put it-- we would be willing to accept or should feel forced to accept "a chaotic theism" is to demonstrate lack of understanding and insight or just bad faith. I have often witnessed atheists argue in this fashion with child or adolescent like understanding of the issues they discuss and are passionate about creating more "heat than light". Not understanding that science is done by the will not necessity. A default to supernatural agency would be equally unacceptable to a believing scientist as it would be to a unbelieving one and that should be quite obvious. While many things could be possible not all are equally likely or warranted when seeking simple material explanations which is the first goal and will of science done by anyone.Michael Servetus
September 16, 2012
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'If I was attacking modern science, I would be objecting to its conclusions as a whole. Can you point out where I’ve done that?' Please CR, no facile and vapid non sequiturs. A person might attack modern science - indeed this forum is precisely designed to do so - by attacking major elements within it: primarily, the totalitarian protectionism of the religious zealots of scientism. It doesn't damn modern science in its entirety, but it is still an attack on it, and a very meritorious one at that.Axel
September 16, 2012
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