Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Philosopher offers six signs of “scientism”

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Non-materialist neuroscientists must often deal with the claim that their work is “unscientific,” despite the fact that, for example, the placebo effect, for example, is one of the best attested effects in medicine and the fact that there Is mounting evidence for researchable psi effects. The problem arises because, as Susan Hack puts it, “scientism” enables assessors to avoid evaluating evidence in favor of evaluating whether the evidence “counts as science”. Here are her six signs: 1. Using the words “science,” “scientific,” “scientifically,” “scientist,” etc., honorifically, as generic terms of epistemic praise.

And, inevitably, the honorific use of “science” encourages uncritical credulity about whatever new scientific idea comes down the pike. But the fact is that all the explanatory hypotheses that scientists come up with are, at first, highly speculative, and most are eventually found to be untenable, and abandoned. To be sure, by now there is a vast body of well-warranted scientific theory, some of it so well-warranted that it would be astonishing if new evidence were to show it to be mistaken – though even this possibility should never absolutely be ruled out.

Always remember that Ptolemy’s model of the solar system was used successfully by astronomers for 1200 years, even though it had Earth in the wrong place.

2. Adopting the manners, the trappings, the technical terminology, etc., of the sciences, irrespective of their real usefulness. Here, Hack cites the “social sciences”, quite justifiably, but evolutionary psychology surely leads the pack. Can anyone serious believe, for example, that our understanding of public affairs is improved by the claim that there is such a thing as hardwired religion or evolved religion? No new light, just competing, contradictory speculation.

3. A preoccupation with demarcation, i.e., with drawing a sharp line between genuine science, the real thing, and “pseudo-scientific” imposters. The key, of course, is the preoccupation. Everyone wants real science, but a preoccupation with showing that a line of inquiry is not science, good or bad – apart from the evidence – flies in the face of “The fact is that the term “science” simply has no very clear boundaries: the reference of the term is fuzzy, indeterminate and, not least, frequently contested.”

4. A corresponding preoccupation with identifying the “scientific method,” presumed to explain how the sciences have been so successful. ” we have yet to see anything like agreement about what, exactly, this supposed method is.” Of course, one method would work for astronomy, and another for forensics. But both disciplines must reckon with evidence, to be called “science”.

5. Looking to the sciences for answers to questions beyond their scope. One thinks of Harvard cognitive scientist Steve Pinker’s recent claim that science can determine morality. Obviously, whatever comes out of such a project must be the morality of those who went into it.

6. Denying or denigrating the legitimacy or the worth of other kinds of inquiry besides the scientific, or the value of human activities other than inquiry, such as poetry or art. Or better yet, treating them as the equivalent of baboons howling for mates, or something. It discredits both arts and sciences.

Here’s Hack’s “Six Signs of Scientism” lecture.

Comments
Onlookers: Pardon a few remarks and links that go where MF, consistently, will not. Modern materialism -- and on Plato's remarks and correctives in The Laws, Bk X, ancient as well -- is evolutionary. Evolutionary materialism inherently has to account for mind on matter. Therein lies its fatal flaw, that shows that it is necessarily false as a view of the world, for it inescapably undermines the credibility of mind, in multiple ways. In particular, it undermines the credibility of analytical thought by reducing reasoning on ground and consequent to the influences of cause-effect bonds tracing to forces of chance and necessity unconnected to the warrant for conclusions. In effect, in reducing our thoughts, views and conclusions directly or indirectly to genes, chance mutations, survival of the "fittest" (and sexiest) and psycho-social conditioning, knowledge and reasoning (also, ethics) are radically relativised. But, inevitably, so will be the thought of the materialist him-/her- self. If materialism is true, then, we can have no good grounds for believing it to be warranted as true, nor good grounds for believing anything else to be well warranted. Mind dissolves into the chaos of chance and the iron grip of deterministic laws. Jumped up apes from the savannahs of east Africa programmed to forage, survive and mate, have no grounds for trusting their minds to be capable of anything that significantly rises above that threshold of instinctual and/or operantly conditioned response. Actually, they would not have minds, only neural network loops that are wired however they are wired and act on that wiring, not on what is warranted. No wonder Crick's astonishing hypothesis is so patently absurd:
. . . that "You", your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behaviour of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules. As Lewis Carroll's Alice might have phrased: "You're nothing but a pack of neurons." This hypothesis is so alien to the ideas of most people today that it can truly be called astonishing. [The Astonishing Hypothesis, 1994]
Philip Johnson's retort that Crick should be willing therefore to say that his own writings were only a matter of neural loops firing off and associated electrochemistry, points out the self-referential incoherence involved. J B S Haldane captures the challenge well, in one form:
"It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms." [["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209. (Highlight and emphases added.)]
For a step by step reduction to absurdity, cf. here. And, once we look at that pattern of reductio, we see why Materialists struggle so with the placebo effect. For, here we have fairly direct, undeniably scientific evidence that we are self-moved agents. To the point that in some cases even if we know the pills are no more than sugar, the very process of relating with a knowledgeable healing person in a healing context triggers a confidence that is healing! And, where surgeons had to learn that they needed to make sure their wards and theatres did not look like butcher shops! Solomon's remark that a merry, confident heart does good like a medicine, is abundantly and duly confirmed! All this reminds me of the classic Hawthorne Effect, where telephone assembly workers, being tested for effect of lighting levels on performance, turned in astonishing performances, even when the lighting levels were comparable to bright moonlight. The relationship with investigators who cared, and the confidence and concern of the workers had an utterly disproportionate impact. Mind over matter indeed. And, mind matters indeed. (I suggest that onlookers look at the remarks here and here, on the Derek Smith two-tier controller cybernetic model, if you wish a framework for thinking on how mind and brain may work together in bodies, and on how we may operate as self-moved, embodied agents.) GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 4, 2011
February
02
Feb
4
04
2011
01:17 AM
1
01
17
AM
PDT
#56 tgpeeler The reason I dodge the materialism discussion is because I have been round that loop more times than I care to count. The same arguments come up. People get very cross. And no one learns anything or changes their mind. Frankly I have better things to do. It is much more useful to discuss smaller scale precise issues such as whether the placebo effect is evidence for dualism.markf
February 4, 2011
February
02
Feb
4
04
2011
12:15 AM
12
12
15
AM
PDT
markf "I promise you I am completely sincere in my materialism." Oh I get that. Not that sincerity has a thing to do with justified true belief. The reason you dodge the materialism discussion is because you don't have a logical leg to stand on. If you start with a false premise and reason correctly with facts you will always come to a false conclusion. That's why I don't argue conclusions with you. It's all about first principles. But since you (still) obviously reject them I bid you good day. See you around.tgpeeler
February 3, 2011
February
02
Feb
3
03
2011
11:48 PM
11
11
48
PM
PDT
#53 Gpuccio Whatever our prior beliefs about dualism and materialism, I wonder do you now accept that the placebo effect provides no more evidence for dualism than it does for materialism? Your account in #45 said several things about the placebo effect which are equally true under either view and argued that the placebo effect was evidence of design, but did not at any point show how the placebo effect was evidence for dualism.markf
February 3, 2011
February
02
Feb
3
03
2011
11:11 PM
11
11
11
PM
PDT
…it’s a tall order to demand a bulletproof explanation of consciousness with the laws of physics. Though consciousness is impossible to be derived from the laws of physics, it is also impossible for the laws of physics to be adequately described without reference to consciousness,,, at least as far as the laws of quantum mechanics are concerned,,, "It was not possible to formulate the laws (of quantum theory) in a fully consistent way without reference to consciousness." Eugene Wigner (1902 -1995) laid the foundation for the theory of symmetries in quantum mechanics, for which he received the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1963. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_Wignerbornagain77
February 3, 2011
February
02
Feb
3
03
2011
04:52 PM
4
04
52
PM
PDT
Beceuse: …it’s a tall order to demand a bulletproof explanation of consciousness with the laws of physics. The problem is that consciousness exists and is perceived, so it must be included in our map of reality. Matter too exists and is perceived (through consciousness), so we justly include it in our map of reality. So now we have a map of reality including two different classes of empirical "objects": matter and "objective" data; and cosnciousness and subjective data. Now, the two things are really different: none of the conscious concepts and processes can be explained by some theory which recognizes only matter as existing principle. Indeed, the widely spread conviction that some form of structure can generate cosnciousness has no empirical basis or support. There is no doubt, instead, that cosnciousness and matter do interact, in both directions. That has been known for millennia, and nothing in modern science has added a single conceptual point to that aspect. Many think that the evidence for interaction is evidence for the origin of consciousness from matter. But that is not true. All evidences of interaction are perfectly compatible with an interface model. Indeed, they are best explained by an interface model. The placebo effect is no exception. To state that: "such things as intentions, perceptions, consciousness, beliefs or the “representation of meaning” are actually material events or states" is not only completely ascientific (there is not a single empirical proof of that), but also irrational (there is no rational model which in principle could explain that correlation). Concepts like emerging properties and similar are poor intellectual frauds, tailored to give some support to an unsupported model. They replace good science with bad philosophy. There is nothing, absolutely nothing in our whole knowledge which justifies the assumption that a perceiving self can emerge as the result of a particular arrangement of material particles.gpuccio
February 3, 2011
February
02
Feb
3
03
2011
04:31 PM
4
04
31
PM
PDT
Hello Berceuse, The fact that it is a tall order is precisely the issue. Not only do we not understand how or why experience could or would arise from a computational network, we don't even know what it is that we should be addressing. This is not the result of some highly-advertised lack of knowledge about material, or material networks, or material computational networks. This is a stark raving lack of courage to say that there is something more, and we very likely already know what it is.Upright BiPed
February 3, 2011
February
02
Feb
3
03
2011
03:46 PM
3
03
46
PM
PDT
I don't agree with markf's materialistic beliefs, but I will say this... ...it's a tall order to demand a bulletproof explanation of consciousness with the laws of physics.Berceuse
February 3, 2011
February
02
Feb
3
03
2011
11:26 AM
11
11
26
AM
PDT
I actually am not a materialist, by which I basically mean I don't think consciousness can be explained via anything we know about the brain. However I agree with everything Markf has said regarding placebos being utterly irrelevant as evidence for one position or another on the mind/body problem. It is also interesting to note that the placebo effect does not require that the patient believe in the treatment! Even if the patient knows they are getting an inert sugar pill, even if the patient consciously understands there is nothing in the treatment that can affect their medical condition, simply the act of taking the pill can bring on the placebo effect! This would seem to indicate that consciousness has nothing to do with it.aiguy
February 3, 2011
February
02
Feb
3
03
2011
09:49 AM
9
09
49
AM
PDT
#49 tgpeeler if material means essentially physical, and it does, and everything essentially physical can be explained or described in terms of the laws of physics, and they can, your task is to actually explain cosciousness, say, in terms of the (currently) known laws of physics My comment was about the extent to which the placebo effect is evidence against materialism. I do not intend to go over the general arguments for and against materialism yet again. I promise you I am completely sincere in my materialism.markf
February 3, 2011
February
02
Feb
3
03
2011
08:23 AM
8
08
23
AM
PDT
re markf "Materialists believe that such things as intentions, perceptions, consciousness, beliefs or the “representation of meaning” are actually material events or states." OK, so if material means essentially physical, and it does, and everything essentially physical can be explained or described in terms of the laws of physics, and they can, your task is to actually explain cosciousness, say, in terms of the (currently) known laws of physics. This cannot be done by you or anyone else and I suspect that you actually know that. The interesting question is: Why would one hang on to a world view that explains nothing, is completely irrational, and leads to nihilism and despair? For my part you all are welcome to that but it seems odd to me that apart from irrefutable evidence that there is no light, why one would choose darkness over light. Go figure.tgpeeler
February 3, 2011
February
02
Feb
3
03
2011
08:13 AM
8
08
13
AM
PDT
---markf: "The modifications in the brain are not caused by the conviction. They are the conviction." As I often point out, all these discussions finally boil down to the fact that atheists must deny causality to make their scheme work.StephenB
February 3, 2011
February
02
Feb
3
03
2011
07:36 AM
7
07
36
AM
PDT
Onlookers: I think GP is the best corrective to the just above: MF, 46: At the core of your response you are arguing that the placebo response must be designed therefore it must have an immaterial cause. GP, 45:In the placebo effect, the starting point is a conviction in the conscious representations of the subject, IOWs a specific cognitive judgement about reality, such as: “I am taking a pill that can heal me”. The result is that some healing takes places. You can say that something happened to determine the (wrong) conviction: usually, a doctor transmits the conviction to the patient: again, cosnciousness interfering with consciousness. But the important point os that the patient must really believe that he is taking a healing drug. He cannot cheat. You say that you identify a belief with a brain state: the ususal strong AI position, and a very bold one. I am sure nobody has any real model of why and how a material state of molecules should generate “a belief”. And that is the first, unsubstantiated assumption. But that assumption, although a folly, is widespread, and you can correctly argue that it is not specific to the placebo issue. OK, so let’s go on. The surprising aspect here, this one much more specific, is that in some way the conviction starts a series of physical events which produce a veru complex and specific (and desired) result): the healing. Now, to explain that, you have to assume: a) That the physical modifications in the brain caused by the “conviction” are the cause of other specific modifications which seem to be purposeful. b) That a) can happen although the subject apparently has no specific knowledge of how to heal himself from the condition (and, sometimes, not even the doctors). So, how can you explain a) and b) from a materialistic point of view? You can use a darwinist approach, and say maybe that the mechanism of healing is already in the system, because it has been selected: people who heal may probably be said to have a reproductive advantage after all. OK, so we have a finalistic procedure of healing (involving we know not what, but almost certainly immunological regulations, endocrine patterns, and who knows what else) which seems to work: nothing really surprising on that. But why should that procedure, obviously already available to the system, be triggered by a conviction? Is that a darwinist way to support faith in faith? _____________ The gap between what was actually said in 45 and what was rebutted in 46, is revealing. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 3, 2011
February
02
Feb
3
03
2011
06:02 AM
6
06
02
AM
PDT
  Gpuccio Don’t confuse “designed” with “immaterial”. At the core of your response you are arguing that the placebo response must be designed therefore it must have an immaterial cause.   Separately I challenge whether the placebo effect must be designed.  But even if it were designed why should that make it immaterial?  Can we not design material things? I will illustrate that with some comments below (plus a few other comments). I pick up your response after you accept that the debate over my strong materialist position is not relevant to the placebo effect…
OK, so let’s go on. The surprising aspect here, this one much more specific, is that in some way the conviction starts a series of physical events which produce a veru complex and specific (and desired) result): the healing.
Now, to explain that, you have to assume:
a) That the physical modifications in the brain caused by the “conviction” are the cause of other specific modifications which seem to be purposeful.
The modifications in the brain are not caused by the conviction.  They are the conviction.
b) That a) can happen although the subject apparently has no specific knowledge of how to heal himself from the condition (and, sometimes, not even the doctors).
Which is of course equally true if that conviction is an immaterial thing.
So, how can you explain a) and b) from a materialistic point of view?
You can use a darwinist approach, and say maybe that the mechanism of healing is already in the system, because it has been selected: people who heal may probably be said to have a reproductive advantage after all.
Whether it arose through Darwinian forces or not the mechanism of healing clearly exists in our bodies.  It happens all the time.  The only question is why a conviction should kick it off.
OK, so we have a finalistic procedure of healing (involving we know not what, but almost certainly immunological regulations, endocrine patterns, and who knows what else) which seems to work: nothing really surprising on that.
But why should that procedure, obviously already available to the system, be triggered by a conviction?
I can think of some explanations – but the key point is the question is equally mysterious, in fact slightly more mysterious, if the conviction is immaterial.
What is the repreoductive advantage of helaing if you believe, and not helaing if you don’t? To select for gullible individuals? To favour those who are not hyperskeptical, because they are notoriously better reproducers? (Uhm, bad news for some people I know…)
This is the first point where you confuse designed with immaterial.
But you will ask: how is the non materialist explanation better at explaining those things?
You bet!
a) Consciousness exists, and we have no evidence that it is created by matter.
b) Consciousness has its specific states, which are different from the states of matter.
c) Cognition is one of these states. Cognition is a judgement about reality, and has no objective equivalent in material things.
(a), (b), and (c) are all assumptions of dualism.  We can argue about them, but so far they have nothing particular to do with the placebo effect.
d) Conscious states can influence matter, at least in the body (more a fact than an assumption).
e) Consciousness is much more than what we pecieve as our usual “waking consciousness” (a strong assumption, which is however supported by many lines of evidence).
(d ) and (e ) are equally true of the materialist account of consciousness.
f) Therefore, an interaction between this expanded concept of consciousness and the complex systems of the body may well take the form of an ordered and purposeful redirection of the bodily activities, conducing to healing.
I think this amounts to: there is more to consciousness than we realise, so it might include a mechanism for kicking off the healing process.  But that is equally true of a materialist account of consciousness.
g) The two fundamental points seem to be that the healing has to be: - desired (not difficult, usually) - believed in (more difficult, but in the case of the placebo effect that is invariably true) The (subconscious) powers of consciousness, at that point, seem to be able to achieve results. Why? Obviously, because the interaction between consciousness and body is neither random nor “materialistically evolved”: it is designed, and purposeful.
This is the second time you confuse designed with immaterial. From this point I lose the track of your argument…markf
February 3, 2011
February
02
Feb
3
03
2011
04:47 AM
4
04
47
AM
PDT
Mark: Sometimes I think that you seem not to understand the difference between "something is possible" and "something is credible". Well, let's try this way. In the placebo effect, the starting point is a conviction in the conscious representations of the subject, IOWs a specific cognitive judgement about reality, such as: "I am taking a pill that can heal me". The result is that some healing takes places. You can say that something happened to determine the (wrong) conviction: usually, a doctor transmits the conviction to the patient: again, cosnciousness interfering with consciousness. But the important point os that the patient must really believe that he is taking a healing drug. He cannot cheat. You say that you identify a belief with a brain state: the ususal strong AI position, and a very bold one. I am sure nobody has any real model of why and how a material state of molecules should generate "a belief". And that is the first, unsubstantiated assumption. But that assumption, although a folly, is widespread, and you can correctly argue that it is not specific to the placebo issue. OK, so let's go on. The surprising aspect here, this one much more specific, is that in some way the conviction starts a series of physical events which produce a veru complex and specific (and desired) result): the healing. Now, to explain that, you have to assume: a) That the physical modifications in the brain caused by the "conviction" are the cause of other specific modifications which seem to be purposeful. b) That a) can happen although the subject apparently has no specific knowledge of how to heal himself from the condition (and, sometimes, not even the doctors). So, how can you explain a) and b) from a materialistic point of view? You can use a darwinist approach, and say maybe that the mechanism of healing is already in the system, because it has been selected: people who heal may probably be said to have a reproductive advantage after all. OK, so we have a finalistic procedure of healing (involving we know not what, but almost certainly immunological regulations, endocrine patterns, and who knows what else) which seems to work: nothing really surprising on that. But why should that procedure, obviously already available to the system, be triggered by a conviction? Is that a darwinist way to support faith in faith? What is the repreoductive advantage of helaing if you believe, and not helaing if you don't? To select for gullible individuals? To favour those who are not hyperskeptical, because they are notoriously better reproducers? (Uhm, bad news for some people I know...) Seriously, I am sure materialists can come out with some explanation. They are well trained at that. But you will ask: how is the non materialist explanation better at explaining those things? Well, it's rather simple. The non materialist explanation, IMO, can be based on some very reasonable assumptions: a) Consciousness exists, and we have no evidence that it is created by matter. b) Consciousness has its specific states, which are different from the states of matter. c) Cognition is one of these states. Cognition is a judgement about reality, and has no objective equivalent in material things. d) Conscious states can influence matter, at least in the body (more a fact than an assumption). e) Consciousness is much more than what we pecieve as our usual "waking consciousness" (a strong assumption, which is however supported by many lines of evidence). f) Therefore, an interaction between this expanded concept of consciousness and the complex systems of the body may well take the form of an ordered and purposeful redirection of the bodily activities, conducing to healing. g) The two fundamental points seem to be that the healing has to be: - desired (not difficult, usually) - believed in (more difficult, but in the case of the placebo effect that is invariably true) The (subconscious) powers of consciousness, at that point, seem to be able to achieve results. Why? Obviously, because the interaction between consciousness and body is neither random nor "materialistically evolved": it is designed, and purposeful. As the placebo effect can act also as nocebo, we can imagine that in many cases the hyperskepticism of the mind about a possible healing could act as an obstruction to a fruitful cooperation of mind and body. A simple change in the cognitive state seems to be able to trigger a more functional relationship between the two. Again I stress the import role of pure cognition here. You can imagine that believing in healing can release some helathy emotional response, and endocrine and immunological results. That is probably true. But the problem is: why? and how? I have already discussed the aspect of "how". Just a few more words on the "why" problem. Why should a mere change in judgement of reality cause such a purposeful emotional and physical change? Well, the answer seems simple: the self "believes" that healing will take place. That is obviously reassuring. "Obviosuly"? What is the self? Why is the self interested in its survival? Why is each cognitive experience inevitably coupled to an emotional experience? What is cognition? What is feeling? All these problems, although complex and deep, are rather "natural" for those who believe that cosnciousness is an independently observe field of reality, with its laws and rules. However, they are complete mysteries for those who cannot even begin to explain how material arrangements of atoms and molecules should generate consciousness, and yet want to stubbornly believe that. I know that nothing of what I have said can be accepted by you, but OK, I have said it just the same.gpuccio
February 3, 2011
February
02
Feb
3
03
2011
01:45 AM
1
01
45
AM
PDT
#42 StephenB
It is clear that two entities possessed by the individual must be involved for the placebo effect to work. If B [the changed state of an organ called the brain] is influenced, then it is also clear that B did not change itself, and therefore, A [a different kind of entity had to change it]. Further, A must be more powerful than B, which again, shows then A must be a different kind of entity than B.
I don’t get this at all. The result of the placebo effect is a physical change in the body such as recovering from an illness. The cause is a belief – which I identify with a brain state. Why is a different kind of entity required? Why does it have to be more powerful? Very minor events often have dramatic and complex results.markf
February 2, 2011
February
02
Feb
2
02
2011
10:58 PM
10
10
58
PM
PDT
OT gpuccio, you may find this very interesting: Here is more Evidence for intricate, well timed, terra-forming of the Earth from a primordial wasteland into a place capable of supporting complex life. Explosive Genetic Expansion 3.3 to 2.8 Billion Years Ago Provides New Evidence for Intelligent Design - January 2011 http://www.reasons.org/explosive-genetic-expansion-33-28-billion-years-ago-provides-new-evidence-intelligent-designbornagain77
February 2, 2011
February
02
Feb
2
02
2011
11:33 AM
11
11
33
AM
PDT
---markf; "I need to understand why a dualist account of that conviction is more likely to lead to a physical result than a physical account of that conviction." It is clear that two entities possessed by the individual must be involved for the placebo effect to work. If B [the changed state of an organ called the brain] is influenced, then it is also clear that B did not change itself, and therefore, A [a different kind of entity had to change it]. Further, A must be more powerful than B, which again, shows then A must be a different kind of entity than B. Only two possible candidates exist as the changing and more powerful entity: the suggestion itself or an immaterial faculty of mind, or both. In either case, the materialist explanation fails. [A] must be a different kind of entity than B if A is to change B or if it has more power than B. Put another way, if A is MORE POWERFUL than B, or can override the impulses of B, then A must be a different kind of entity than B. The most reasonable explanation for this state of affairs is that a non-material FACULTY [mind] changed the state of a material ORGAN [brain]. Materialism tries to say that A and B are one and the same entity, and that this singular entity changed itself and is MORE POWERFUL THAN ITSELF. It is a ridiculous argument. You are free to provide your own modifications, and you have been asked many times to do so.StephenB
February 2, 2011
February
02
Feb
2
02
2011
10:30 AM
10
10
30
AM
PDT
markf, I've noticed that you have not really stipulated any exact cause for the placebo effect save for some mysterious 'material' cause that you did not even care to describe in any detail whatsoever. Would you care to give a cause other than your 'belief'? As well, since I hold that God is the cause of quantum wave collapse, would you care to defend the absurd atheistic position of Many Worlds?bornagain77
February 2, 2011
February
02
Feb
2
02
2011
09:47 AM
9
09
47
AM
PDT
Rene Descarte, reasoned that there were two realms; the spiritual and the physical. They are completely separate, according to him, except that they can interact in a human body. The spirit can influence the material world through a person. Does everyone agree that this is basically dualism? So the question then becomes, is a belief a spiritual or a material phenomenon? I think that markf would say it is a material one while most of the rest of us would say its something spiritual (or mental or whatever word you want to use). I'm not sure I can back it up with reasoning, but I think it is self-evident that a belief cannot be material. If that's true, then the whole question about the placebo effect is answered. If that is not true, then it is also answered, just the opposite way.Collin
February 2, 2011
February
02
Feb
2
02
2011
08:44 AM
8
08
44
AM
PDT
markf you state, 'I need to understand why a dualist account of that conviction is more likely to lead to a physical result than a physical account of that conviction.' Because The 'dualist' account is by far the most parsimonious explanation, especially now that consciousness, as I showed earlier, is more 'foundational' to reality than material is. i.e. Reality is conclusively shown to reduce to mind not to 'material'!!! Yet in your foundational materialistic presupposition markf, you hold that 'mind' is merely an illusion that has 'emerged' from a 3-D material basis. You simply cannot back up your foundational materialistic premise to substantiate your claim for primacy of a 'convoluted' material explanation over the far more parsimonious Mind/Belief explanation!bornagain77
February 2, 2011
February
02
Feb
2
02
2011
07:10 AM
7
07
10
AM
PDT
gpuccio and markf, As a side interest, it has been shown that 'intention of mind', which is semi-directly linked to the 'belief of mind', has a noticeable 'non-local' effect on material: Scientific Evidence That Mind Effects Matter - Random Number Generators - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4198007 I once asked a evolutionist, after showing him the preceding experiment, "Since you ultimately believe that the 'god of random chance' produced everything we see around us, what in the world is my mind doing pushing your god around?" also of note, I wonder if just knowing about the side effects of drugs increases the 'detrimental' placebo effect of those listed side effects? This article, wjich references a peer-reviewed article in JAMA, says there is a correlation: Excerpt: A negative placebo effect is sometimes called a nocebo effect, in medicine. If a patient is skeptical of an intervention, the explanation offered to them for its effectiveness, or the credibility of the physician admininistering the treatment then a perfectly effective treatment might prove to be ineffective on a given patient due to a negative placebo effect. In worst case scenarios, a nocebo phenomenon originating from the unfounded fear of the detrimental effects attributed to a particular treatment might actually result in a patient feeling like they are suffering from a negative side effect. http://naturalhealthperspective.com/attitude/mind-body-effect.html further note: Just How much did the nocebo phenomena effect this man's condition? Abilify Kills http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VzMZX4nBz8bornagain77
February 2, 2011
February
02
Feb
2
02
2011
06:57 AM
6
06
57
AM
PDT
#36 Sorry about the typos - "here" should be "hear" - last sentence should be: I need to understand why a dualist account of that conviction is more likely to lead to a physical result than a physical account of that conviction.markf
February 2, 2011
February
02
Feb
2
02
2011
06:45 AM
6
06
45
AM
PDT
#35 Gpuccio For me, there is no game: a non materialist reductionist position (which personally I would not call “dualism”) provides certainly a better explanation of the placebo effect. OK. Let's here why dualism gives a better explanation. The closest you have come so far to explaining the placebo effect is: The characteristic of the placebo effect is that a pure conviction about reality is able to harness unknown, and certainly very complex, physical resources so that a result is obtained which is neither willed nor understood by the conscious mind of the agent. For a materialist "a pure conviction about reality" is a material state. So this statement applies equally well to a materialist or dualist account. I need to understand why a dualist account of that conviction is more likely to lead a physical result and than a physical account of that conviction.markf
February 2, 2011
February
02
Feb
2
02
2011
06:36 AM
6
06
36
AM
PDT
Mark: Mostly there is just no reason to suppose that dualism provides a better explanation of the placebo effect than materialism. Well, as usual we disagree on that. For me, there is no game: a non materialist reductionist position (which personally I would not call "dualism") provides certainly a better explanation of the placebo effect.gpuccio
February 2, 2011
February
02
Feb
2
02
2011
05:10 AM
5
05
10
AM
PDT
markf, you make this statement, 'there is just no reason to suppose that dualism provides a better explanation of the placebo effect than materialism.' Yet it is shown, in quantum mechanics, that quantum wave collapse to a 'uncertain' 3-D particle state is centered on each unique point of conscious observation in the universe. Thus how can consciousness arise from a 3-D material 'state', to use your words, when 3-D material states are dependent on consciousness in the first place? This is simply fatal for your starting materialistic presumption in trying to explain the placebo effect! notes: Dr. Quantum - Double Slit Experiment & Entanglement - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4096579 Double-slit experiment Excerpt: In 1999 objects large enough to see under a microscope, buckyball (interlocking carbon atom) molecules (diameter about 0.7 nm, nearly half a million times that of a proton), were found to exhibit wave-like interference. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-slit_experiment Quantum mind–body problem Parallels between quantum mechanics and mind/body dualism were first drawn by the founders of quantum mechanics including Erwin Schrödinger, Werner Heisenberg, Wolfgang Pauli, Niels Bohr, and Eugene Wigner http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind%E2%80%93body_problem "It was not possible to formulate the laws (of quantum theory) in a fully consistent way without reference to consciousness." Eugene Wigner (1902 -1995) laid the foundation for the theory of symmetries in quantum mechanics, for which he received the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1963. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_Wigner Alain Aspect and Anton Zeilinger by Richard Conn Henry - Physics Professor - John Hopkins University Excerpt: Why do people cling with such ferocity to belief in a mind-independent reality? It is surely because if there is no such reality, then ultimately (as far as we can know) mind alone exists. And if mind is not a product of real matter, but rather is the creator of the "illusion" of material reality (which has, in fact, despite the materialists, been known to be the case, since the discovery of quantum mechanics in 1925), then a theistic view of our existence becomes the only rational alternative to solipsism (solipsism is the philosophical idea that only one's own mind is sure to exist). (Dr. Henry's referenced experiment and paper - “An experimental test of non-local realism” by S. Gröblacher et. al., Nature 446, 871, April 2007 - “To be or not to be local” by Alain Aspect, Nature 446, 866, April 2007 (personally I feel the word "illusion" was a bit too strong from Dr. Henry to describe material reality and would myself have opted for his saying something a little more subtle like; "material reality is a "secondary reality" that is dependent on the primary reality of God's mind" to exist. Then again I'm not a professor of physics at a major university as Dr. Henry is.) http://henry.pha.jhu.edu/aspect.htmlbornagain77
February 2, 2011
February
02
Feb
2
02
2011
04:12 AM
4
04
12
AM
PDT
#29 Gpuccio It does not matter that the placebo effect is different from acts of will etc. The only thing that matters is whether dualism gives a better explanation of the placebo effect than materialism. To put it crudely: P(placebo|dualism)>>P(placebo|materialism) In fact if anything it is the other way round. But I wouldn't want to push that. Mostly there is just no reason to suppose that dualism provides a better explanation of the placebo effect than materialism.markf
February 2, 2011
February
02
Feb
2
02
2011
03:05 AM
3
03
05
AM
PDT
F/N: First, Null and GP, excellent work. The centrality of "explanation" above highlights that in science -- and particularly, origins science -- we are dealing with inferences to best current explanation in light of empirical, factual adequacy, coherence and explanatory power. Yes, there are many diverse explanations that claim a seat at the table, but what meets the above trio of tests best? And, without censoring out or misrepresenting and dismissing other possibilities? In particular, materialistic explanations are commonly proffered on the assumption or assertion that only such explanations are properly scientific. Indeed, there have been attempts to redefine science in ways that subtly turn it into an exercise towards the best evolutionary materialistic account of the cosmos, from hydrogen to humans. That is a corruption of the duty of science to progressively -- and, yes, inevitably provisionally -- pursue the truth about our world, in light of empirical observation and experiment, reasoned analysis of findings, theoretical modelling held accountable before the facts, and informed discussion. Materialism needs to be cut down to size and told to take back its seat at the table, instead of trying to usurp control over the whole discipline of science. Especially, since it is necessarily false, any way, being self-referentially absurd in multiple ways. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 2, 2011
February
02
Feb
2
02
2011
01:50 AM
1
01
50
AM
PDT
nullasalus: A very good, clear and balanced summary.gpuccio
February 2, 2011
February
02
Feb
2
02
2011
01:25 AM
1
01
25
AM
PDT
Just to throw in my two cents here... "Materialists have an explanation for (whatever) too!" has stopped impressing me. Usually the explanation is either a denial of the phenomenon in question, a plea for time (science will figure it out!), or turning "materialism" into.. something other than materialism, without admitting it. That last one's getting more popular. Others, including solipsists, have 'explanations' for their beliefs too. Somehow I don't feel compelled to feign respect for the mere claim of 'they have an explanation too', especially when the materialist game for years now has been to either A) Act as if just saying 'materialist explanation' should be enough to shut down criticism or debate of alternative explanations, B) Mocking caricatures of non-materialist arguments has been central discussion tactic, and C) the general poor state of said explanations when finally revealed.nullasalus
February 2, 2011
February
02
Feb
2
02
2011
01:08 AM
1
01
08
AM
PDT
1 5 6 7 8

Leave a Reply