Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Tabby’s Star — on the “extraordinary evidence” claim

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

If one watches the TED talk by Astronomer Tabetha Boyajian, one will notice that she begins with Sagan’s aphorism on “extraordinary” claims. This inadvertently reveals just how significant epistemological concerns are in scientific undertakings.

Accordingly, for follow up, I post a corrective:

The issue in knowledge is not extraordinary evidence (an assertion that invites selective hyperskepticism) but instead adequate warrant so that claimed knowledge is indeed warranted, credibly true (and so also reliable). END

PS:  It seems I need to add a clip I just made and annotated from a UKG paper on envisioning future scenarios for RW purposes, to illustrate a point on risk vs uncertainty i/l/o planning horizons — though, frankly, a U-UBSE (unknown unknown, black swan event) can hit you short term with v. little warning:

In for a penny, in for a pound. Let me add on the window of opportunity for change challenge i/l/o Machiavelli. This ties to how, often, after an over-the-cliff event, we can all indulge Monday Morning Quarterbacking — and to how hard it can be to be open minded enough to recognise weak, noise-beset signals of likely unwelcome realities and build enough of a critical mass to act in good time. and, statisticians and scenario modellers, I am looking straight at you:

See why I believe in war games, role-playing, BAU/ALT reflection and good old ZOPP?

Comments
KF, PS to my #19, It's also clear that everyone, including you and me, quickly accepted the explanation that the original experiment was flawed, and that the results were actually consistent with GR. To summarize, if the headline states "Experiment possibly falsifies GR!", then we are very cautious and wait for further confirmation. If the headline is "Experiment produces results consistent with GR!", then we are more likely to accept it at face value.daveS
January 16, 2018
January
01
Jan
16
16
2018
10:52 AM
10
10
52
AM
PDT
OK got it- FTL should have given it awayET
January 16, 2018
January
01
Jan
16
16
2018
10:09 AM
10
10
09
AM
PDT
withstood 100+ years of tests
And what do you mean by "withstood"? What "tests"? If you mean the goalposts continue to be moved, I might agree. Andrewasauber
January 16, 2018
January
01
Jan
16
16
2018
10:09 AM
10
10
09
AM
PDT
ET, General relativity.daveS
January 16, 2018
January
01
Jan
16
16
2018
10:07 AM
10
10
07
AM
PDT
daveS:
I think most of us in practice would be especially cautious in the treatment of evidence which would overturn a theory that has withstood 100+ years of tests (and rightly so).
And what theory would that be?ET
January 16, 2018
January
01
Jan
16
16
2018
10:05 AM
10
10
05
AM
PDT
KF,
There is no more duty of care to be meticulous and correct on “extraordinary” results than on “ordinary” ones; warrant cannot accept double standards on evidence. Both are governed by the same duties of care of sound work towards truth.
I think most of us in practice would be especially cautious in the treatment of evidence which would overturn a theory that has withstood nearly 100 years of tests (and rightly so).daveS
January 16, 2018
January
01
Jan
16
16
2018
10:04 AM
10
10
04
AM
PDT
And Darwin's idea still lacks evidentiary support. The dinosaur killing asteroid has also been changed to say that most dinos died before the impact as evidenced by the total lack of dino fossils in and just above the KT boundary.ET
January 16, 2018
January
01
Jan
16
16
2018
09:10 AM
9
09
10
AM
PDT
KF
DS, There is no more duty of care to be meticulous and correct on “extraordinary” results than on “ordinary” ones; warrant cannot accept double standards on evidence. Both are governed by the same duties of care of sound work towards truth.
Extraordinary is just an adjective qualifying the degree to which a claim differs from currently "accepted" knowledge. When heliocentrism was first proposed, it was an extraordinary claim. It required extraordinary evidence to become accepted. Plate tectonics was the same. As was the dinosaur killing asteroid and Darwin's theory. If we didn't require extraordinary evidence in order to accept an extraordinary claim, one that constitutes a fundamental change in our models, science would never advance. Admittedly, this will often delay the acceptance of a more accurate model, but it will never stop the process.JSmith
January 16, 2018
January
01
Jan
16
16
2018
08:53 AM
8
08
53
AM
PDT
JSmith:
The same applies to ID. I think that we would all agree that life arising due to intelligent design would be an extraordinary claim.
And ID has the methodology to test that claim, it has been tested and living organisms were intentionally designed.
As is the claim that it arose naturally.
There isn't even a methodology to test such a claim. As for SETI it too has a methodology. Looks like only materialism lacks one.ET
January 16, 2018
January
01
Jan
16
16
2018
08:38 AM
8
08
38
AM
PDT
JS, the evidence is clear: the "extraordinary evidence" standard has been used to insert a double-standard of warrant, leading to unwarranted exclusion of unwelcome results. What would be reasonable is to exert care based on potential consequences of error, i.e. moral certainty is the relevant standard when the cost of error is too great or would be unjust. Do not forget, I bear the name of a man judicially murdered on one hour's notice to himself when he was blocked from accessing the testimony of his physician; whose report on the nephritis he was suffering would have utterly devastated the case being made against him in the military court. KFkairosfocus
January 16, 2018
January
01
Jan
16
16
2018
08:36 AM
8
08
36
AM
PDT
DS, There is no more duty of care to be meticulous and correct on "extraordinary" results than on "ordinary" ones; warrant cannot accept double standards on evidence. Both are governed by the same duties of care of sound work towards truth. KFkairosfocus
January 16, 2018
January
01
Jan
16
16
2018
08:30 AM
8
08
30
AM
PDT
KF,
DS, the standard degree of credible empirical warrant. There was a recent case and there turned out to be an error. KF
If it was your work, would you not have scrutinized the FTL experiment with extraordinary care, compared to one which supported a less surprising conclusion?daveS
January 16, 2018
January
01
Jan
16
16
2018
07:33 AM
7
07
33
AM
PDT
JG
Interesting – which kind of evidence is (in principle) more extraordinary: that one should pick up a signal originating from an intelligent lifeform somewhere in a universe the size of ours, or that one should not pick up such a signal?
I wasn't intending to drag this into a SETI thread. If you prefer, I will give another example. A claim that Bigfoot is real and living in Montserrat would definitely be an extraordinary claim. A blurry picture with no landmarks would not be adequate to compellingly support the claim .Given current digital manipulations, a clear picture with identifiable landmarks would also not be adequate. However, this, along with tissue samples from the same location that have DNA that cannot be linked to any other species of animal alive would be extraordinary, and adequate as compelling evidence. The same applies to ID. I think that we would all agree that life arising due to intelligent design would be an extraordinary claim. As is the claim that it arose naturally. At present, there is no evidence to compellingly support one claim over the other. I think that we would agree that for any evidence to be compelling enough to discard one or the other as possibilities would have to be extraordinary evidence. I just don't see any problem with the way that Sagan phrased his statement.JSmith
January 16, 2018
January
01
Jan
16
16
2018
07:30 AM
7
07
30
AM
PDT
Interesting - which kind of evidence is (in principle) more extraordinary: that one should pick up a signal originating from an intelligent lifeform somewhere in a universe the size of ours, or that one should not pick up such a signal? Isn't the whole astrobiology project based on the assumption that life ought to be as common as muck out there?Jon Garvey
January 16, 2018
January
01
Jan
16
16
2018
07:15 AM
7
07
15
AM
PDT
We are just talking semantics here. Any evidence compelling enough to be adequate to support an extraordinary claim would, itself be extraordinary. For example, A claim that SETI had irrefutably identified an intelligent signal from space would definitely be an extraordinary claim. Non-randomness in the signal would not be adequate evidence to make this claim. Nor would non-randomness and repeated sequences. However, some sort of imbedded mathematics, geometry or language certainly would be adequate. And that would also be extraordinary evidence.JSmith
January 16, 2018
January
01
Jan
16
16
2018
07:10 AM
7
07
10
AM
PDT
Interesting that Sagan had no trouble believing in abiogenesis theory despite there being zero evidence for it. He certainly didn't demand extraordinary evidence for that faith-based idea.Truth Will Set You Free
January 16, 2018
January
01
Jan
16
16
2018
06:57 AM
6
06
57
AM
PDT
DS, the standard degree of credible empirical warrant. There was a recent case and there turned out to be an error. KFkairosfocus
January 16, 2018
January
01
Jan
16
16
2018
06:40 AM
6
06
40
AM
PDT
KF, While I agree with the OP to some extent, I also think different people are using the terms "extraordinary claims|evidence" in different ways. Suppose I claimed to be able to send signals from Milan to Minsk at 10 times the speed of light in a vacuum. Is that an extraordinary claim? What sort of evidence would you consider adequate to demonstrate this claim?daveS
January 16, 2018
January
01
Jan
16
16
2018
06:33 AM
6
06
33
AM
PDT
DS, there are direct indications in the TED video -- right in the opening -- that the above is still needed. KFkairosfocus
January 16, 2018
January
01
Jan
16
16
2018
05:54 AM
5
05
54
AM
PDT
nm--already answered.daveS
January 16, 2018
January
01
Jan
16
16
2018
05:42 AM
5
05
42
AM
PDT
Good post. Sagan was simply revealing his extraordinary a/mat bias.Truth Will Set You Free
January 16, 2018
January
01
Jan
16
16
2018
05:35 AM
5
05
35
AM
PDT
Dick, that goes to the heart of the matter. What seems extraordinary is going to be what is not expected on the dominant perspective or school of thought at work. Sagan's declaration is little more than a policy declaration that selective hyperskepticism will be used to lock out what is unwelcome, by exerting an arbitrarily and inconsistently high standard of warrant for what one is inclined to reject. Too often, by recognising the sort of warrant that will be feasible for that sort of claim then pushing the bar far higher, studiously evading that if such were consistently applied, the relevant field of thought or action would collapse. Cases in point, sadly, are legion. KF PS: And when one inappropriately rejects what on reasonable and feasible warrant one should believe, of course one is led to cling to what one should not believe. A double-whammy.kairosfocus
January 16, 2018
January
01
Jan
16
16
2018
05:05 AM
5
05
05
AM
PDT
What constitutes "extraordinary" evidence anyway? What are the criteria which establish evidence as "extraordinary"?Dick
January 16, 2018
January
01
Jan
16
16
2018
04:47 AM
4
04
47
AM
PDT
Tabby’s Star — on the “extraordinary evidence” claimkairosfocus
January 16, 2018
January
01
Jan
16
16
2018
02:55 AM
2
02
55
AM
PDT
1 2

Leave a Reply