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Why can’t the ID people come up with evidence – evidence that doesn’t cause Darwinists to drive them from their posts?

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Darwinian evolutionist E. O. Wilson insists that biology can do better than traditional faith, and meanwhile – in a fascinating passage that somehow signifies the passing of an old order – disses intelligent design.

Wilson insists that all the ID guys have to do is come up with “evidence” – so why don’t they?

The critics forget how the reward system in science works. Any researcher who can prove the existence of intelligent design within the accepted framework of science will make history and achieve eternal fame. They will prove at last that science and religious dogma are compatible. Even a combined Nobel prize and Templeton prize (the latter designed to encourage the search for just such harmony) would fall short as proper recognition. Every scientist would like to accomplish such a epoch-making advance. But no one has even come close, because unfortunately there is no evidence, no theory and no criteria for proof that even marginally might pass for science.

There is something almost obscene about a smug – and so they say – gentlemanly* prof sitting pretty at Harvard , writing this disingenuous garbage, in full awareness that none of his cowering colleagues will ask the obvious question: What happened to people who DID come up with evidence against Darwinism (and therefore maybe for intelligent design)?

What ABOUT Rick Sternberg, Guillermo Gonzalez, and Robert Marks? To say nothing of Mike Behe?

What about them? Hey, the Darwin mob knows what to do about people who know that Darwinism is bankrupt and why, as the Expelled movie will certainly show.

Also, just look at the filth written by other people’s students about prof Mike Behe. And his crime? Behe KNOWS that what Wilson is saying is not true. Natural selection acting on random mutation rarely produces worthwhile information.

That’s just a fact, one that Darwinists cannot grapple with. The life of the universe is not long enough to do what Darwinists need.

People who do not know how to pay their bills look for victims, scapegoats. So, are the Darwinists’ victims and scapegoats just Behe and the other guys I mentioned above?

Not only them, no. Do you by any chance have a working brain?

I myself am, to this day, in receipt of garbage posts from an anti-ID scuzzbucket who seems to have dedicated his retirement years to destroying the careers of people who know that Wilson’s Darwinism is the Enron of biology.

Recently, I wrote to a scientist with whom I might be writing a book at some point, as follows:

… the problem is NOT that old Professor Harrumph of Harvard will disapprove of your views but that gangs of Internet yay-hoos (proud atheists all) will be yelling “xxxxxx yyyyyy is a ruddy FAG!!”

Some of them will be the grad students of that prof’s colleagues, and they will NOT be rebuked for their filthy insolence and stupid detractions.

So I wondered, can his family and friends and faith support him through all this?

As a science journalist, I am hesitant to work with scientists who do not have networks who can support them through the siege of foul-mouthed and otherwise stupid Darwinists.

This isn’t Muppet Laboratories, after all, where all the puppets go back into the box at the end of the show. Real human beings could be harmed, including children and teens, while we insist on balancing the books.

Or, alternatively, the real human beings could stand up to it. They can understand what is at stake and draw lines to protect themselves from the scuzzbuckets (often paid for by their tax dollars) who attack people – including their own nearest and dearest – with valid evidence against Darwinism.

It’s hard to explain to kids, but here’s the deal: Balancing the books of the Enron of biology will not be done without serious cost. If you’re not safe, stay out of the way and no problem. But don’t undermine the ID people who hold the future in their hands.

Otherwise, if you are safe, proceed with caution … and welcome to the future.

*Incidentally, re the “gentlemanly” stuff, I wouldn’t really care if Wilson has a mouth on him like PZ Myers. That’s not the substance of the problem we are dealing with, when confronting the Enron of biology. We want the books balanced. That’s all. And for all I know, it’s a crime. And if so, I’m guilty. Are you? And if not, why aren’t you? Don’t you want credit for having a mind when it matters?

Comments
The yet those reviewers, "renowned scientists" according to the OSC (is the OSC a scientist?), remain unknown.getawitness
December 3, 2007
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kairosfocus wrote: . . . Quotes from an OSC letter . . . From Wikipedia (Sternberg peer review controversy): "He continues to cite a letter by the United States Office of Special Counsel as supporting his version of events,[23] despite the Office of Special Counsel ultimately dismissing his claim." The OSC dismissed his claim. If you're going to use that letter to support your view that Mr. Sternberg was a victim rather than someone who went around the normal channels to see a paper he personally agreed with published, you should have the intellectual honesty to mention that fact.Maya
December 3, 2007
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Onlookers: Maybe we need to put up [yet again] some of the record from the OSC investigatory letter. That will at least serve to show why the complaint on workplace harassment, character assassination and career busting is being made. Forgive me if this is boring repetition:
. . . many e-mails from within the management of the SI and from outside sources stated that the only way the Meyer article was published was through "serious editorial oversight." Other managers called it an "egregious instance of editorial incompetence..." They could not fathom that they Meyer article had been peer-reviewed and, if it was, it could only have been reviewed by "like minded individuals." In fact, there was a serious effort by some to take the drastic step of piercing the veil of peer review, an unprecedented and unethical act within your field. They assumed that you violated editorial regulations of the Proceedings because you were the primary editor of the article. These comments were made to and by SI and NMNH managers and were published to several outside organizations. It was later revealed that you complied with all editorial requirements of the Proceedings [NB GAW, this would include relevance to its focus] and that the Meyer article was properly peer reviewed by renowned scientists. As an aside, the information received by OSC does not indicate that any effort was made to recall or correct these comments once the truth was made known. During the impromptu background investigation allegations were also made that you mishandled specimens and collections during your scientific research. You have clearly explained how damaging this is for a scientist in your position. This information was also shared outside of the SI. And once again managers later had to admit that the allegations were false. And as with the editorial issue there was no effort, as far as we can tell, to correct this misconception. This allegation may have played into a larger strategy to deny you access to the range and collections at the SI. There was a strategy by several managers to force you out of the SI. The first thing they did was to check your official status with the SI to see if you could be let go for cause for the Meyer article and the information found in your unofficial background investigation. Then they tried a more sophisticated strategy by arguing that since your sponsor died shortly before the Meyer article was published that you could be denied access on that basis. Within two weeks of receiving the Meyer article in the Proceedings, four managers at the SI and NMNH expressed their desire to have your access to the SI denied . . . . Eventually, they determined that they could not terminate you for cause and they were not going to make you a "martyr" by firing you for publishing a paper in ID. They came to the conclusion that you had not violated SI directives and that you could not be denied access for off-duty conduct. This was actually part of the strategy advocated by the NCSE. Undeterred, these same managers then embarked on a new strategy to change your working conditions and create a hostile working environment. Several e-mails complained that you should not be allowed to "live" on the same working floor with other scientists. Two very senior scientists wanted your supervisor to let you know that "you are welcome to leave or resign." . . . . [text of several emails and some paragraphs of comment] . . . . These e-mails are consistent with many others at this time. Your managers are still attempting to find a way to terminate your access. However, they have decided that the politics aren’t right for them to let you go. They wanted to make it clear that you should "do the right thing and resign." This supports your allegation that you were subjected to a hostile work environment. Finally, the last e-mail cited sets forth a troubling summary of events were people had to be investigating your work activities beyond that which is done for other RAs. They are even inspecting what you have been checking out from the library . . . [and more . . . ]
Much more can be cited, from this report, from other investigations and from relevant documents. But, the point is already well-warranted: Denyse is right when she [remember, a practicing journalist] points out in 10 above, that: The best attested fact in the intelligent design controversy right now is the systematic effort by Darwinists to ruin the careers of people who know evidence against Darwinism. We need to take this issue seriously, before we pay a terrible price for it. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
December 3, 2007
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kairosfocus wrote: "It is clear, sadly, that you have not addressed the case on the substance, but have looked for the usual excuses to justify' what was done." Please explain how you came to that conclusion based on my message. I pointed out several facts, including: 1) Mr. Sternberg made himself one of the reviewers of Meyer's paper, despite having connections to a group that would benefit from its publication. This gave the appearance of impropriety, something that must be avoided at all costs in peer reviewed publications. 2) Mr. Sternberg refuses to provide the names of the other reviewers, contributing again to the appearance of impropriety. 3) Mr. Sternberg did not lose his position at the Smithsonian during or because of this incident. When Meyer's paper was reviewed by the other editors at the journal, it was found to be inappropriate. How does pointing out these facts, readily available from numerous websites, suggest that I am trying to "excuse" anything? From what I can find out about this case, the journal responded as any other reputable journal would to the perceived impropriety of Mr. Sternberg's actions and the Smithsonian took no other action against him. If you can provide other facts that should be considered, please do so.Maya
December 3, 2007
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But of course if ever the slightest “dissing” befell the abortion advocate or celebrator of sodomy, do you think we’d have heard the end of it? No, better halt this when they’re destroying reputations and careers. Surely it will lead to worse, as last century it did under their comrade’s care. By the way—why not indulge some student T-shirt provocation with QUESTION AUTHORITY! QUESTION DARWIN!Rude
December 3, 2007
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correction: "may have been" should be followed by "excessive."getawitness
December 3, 2007
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kairosfocus, I don't have a position on whether what happened to Sternberg as a consequence was appropriate. It may have been. I was speaking to whether Sternberg behaved responsibly and noted that this particular journal, which has never published anything else remotely like it, is not an appropriate venue. I was once the associate managing editor of a very good scientific journal. We sent back papers outside the scope of the journal all the time, unread. That's standard practice. I also think it's odd that Mayer sent it to a journal that was clearly inappropriate but which happened to have an ID-friendly managing editor. (The managing editor typically oversees the logistics of peer review and is not an Associate Editor.) Who were the scientists (other than Sternberg) who reviewed the paper? I haven't seen their names anywhere.getawitness
December 3, 2007
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GAW (and Maya): It is clear, sadly, that you have not addressed the case on the substance, but have looked for the usual excuses to "justify" what was done. (Try to think about how the McCarthy cases looked in the 50's and how they look now. Then, look back at what you said in light of the evidence and results that we can all see for the cost of a link or two.) FYI, GAW, the paper passed "proper peer review" by "renowned scientists," which would have plainly included addressing relevance to the purpose of the Journal. The Waldo hunt argument fails. FYI, Maya, Mr Sternberg was subjected to a well-documented major witch-hunt that not only damaged his career and slandered his character -- think about how you would react to being unjustly called or treated as a thief, for just one instance -- but as I recall, also cost him his marriage. I would take your responses more seriously if they actually addressed the record. As it is, they simply come across to me as trying to defend the indefensible by distracting and dismissing. Sad. GEM of TKI PS: Onlookers, on a closely related point, note what Denyse is currently giving out as a heads up on the Gonzalez case, and compare with the ever so confident discussions over at an earlier thread.kairosfocus
December 3, 2007
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kairosfocus [7] and Maya [17]: thanks for your information and links. I've reviewed your site, kf, and Sternberg's site, as well as a number of back issues of the journal in question. I tend to think Sternberg mishandled the publication. Why? Because the paper was clearly, unequivocally inappropriate for the journal. The first question an editor asks is not "is this good enough" but "is this the right place"? And the answer is clearly "No." I've reviewed the tables of contents of PBSW for the year of the paper (2004). All the articles belong in the same journal except one, which is profoundly out of place. Let's play Where's Waldo: Issue 1
A new genus of tiny condor from the Pleistocene of Brazil (Aves: Vulturidae) Diagnoses of hybrid hummingbirds (Aves: Trochilidae). 13. An undescribed intrageneric combination, Heliodoxa imperatrix × Heliodoxa jacula Pholidochromis cerasina, a new species of pseudochromine dottyback fish from the west Pacific (Perciformes: Pseudochromidae), Redescription of Cambaroides japonicus (De Haan, 1841) (Crustacea: Decapoda: Cambaridae) with allocation of a type locality and month of collection of types Two new species of freshwater crabs of the genus Chaceus Pretzmann, 1965 from the Serranía de Perijá of Colombia (Crustacea: Decapoda: Pseudothelphusidae) Reevaluation of the hermit crab genus Parapagurodes McLaughlin & Haig, 1973 (Decapoda: Anomura: Paguroidea: Paguridae) and a new genus for Parapagurodes doederleini (Doflein, 1902) Pseudopaguristes bicolor, a new species of hermit crab (Crustacea: Decapoda: Diogenidae) from Japan, the third species of the genus, A new species of axiid shrimp from chemosynthetic communities of the Louisiana continental slope, Gulf of Mexico (Crustacea: Decapoda: Thalassinidea) Description of a new Synidotea species (Crustacea: Isopoda: Valvifera: Idoteidae) from Hawaii A new species of Synidotea (Crustacea: Isopoda: Valvifera) from the northern Gulf of Mexico A new genus of the Clausidiidae (Copepoda: Poecilostomatoida) associated with a polychaete from Korea, with discussion of the taxonomic status of Hersiliodes Canu, 1888 Vesicomyicola trifurcatus, a new genus and species of commensal polychaete (Annelida: Polychaeta: Nautiliniellidae) found in deep-sea clams from the Blake Ridge cold seep Studies on western Atlantic Octocorallia (Coelenterata: Anthozoa). Part 4: The genus Paracalyptrophora Kinoshita, 1908 Notes on the genus Dicliptera (Acanthaceae) in Bolivia
Issue 2
Pseudopaguristes shidarai, a new species of hermit crab (Crustacea: Decapoda: Diogenidae) from Japan, the fourth species of the genus A new species of Procambarus (Crustacea: Decapoda: Cambaridae) from Veracruz, Mexico Brackenridgia ashleyi, a new species of terrestrial isopod from Tumbling Creek Cave, Missouri (Isopoda: Oniscidea: Trichoniscidae) New species and records of Bopyridae (Crustacea: Isopoda) infesting species of the genus Upogebia (Crustacea: Decapoda: Upogebiidae): the genera Orthione Markham, 1988, and Gyge Cornalia & Panceri, 1861 Three new species and a new genus of Farreidae (Porifera: Hexactinellida: Hexactinosida) The origin of biological information and the higher taxonomic categories
Issue 3
A review of the North American subspecies of the Great Blue Heron (Ardea herodias) A new species of Microgale (Lipotyphla: Tenrecidae: Oryzorictinae) from the Forêt des Mikea of southwestern Madagascar Designation of the type species of Musaraneus Pomel, 1848 (Mammalia: Soricomorpha: Soricidae) The mammals of Palawan Island, Philippines A new species of Tropidonophis (Serpentes: Colubridae: Natricinae) from the D’Entrecasteaux Islands, Papua New Guinea A new species of snake of the genus Omoadiphas (Reptilia: Squamata: Colubridae) from the Cordillera Nombre de Dios in northern Honduras A new species of Kolpotocheirodon (Teleostei: Characidae: Cheirodontinae: Compsurini) from Bahia, northeastern Brazil, with a new diagnosis of the genus Astyanax biotae, a new species of stream fish from the Rio Paranapanema basin, upper Rio Paraná system, southeastern Brazil (Ostariophysi: Characiformes: Characidae) Tetragonopterus lemniscatus (Characiformes: Characidae), a new species from the Corantijn River basin in Suriname Longipalpa saltatrix, a new genus and species of the meiofaunal family Nerillidae (Annelida: Polychaeta) from an anchihaline cave in Bermuda Neostrengeria lemaitrei, a new species of freshwater crab from Colombia (Crustacea: Decapoda: Pseudothelphusidae), and the vertical distribution of the genus A new species of Agostocaris (Caridea: Agostocarididae) from Acklins Island, Bahamas A new species of caridean shrimp of the family Stylodactylidae from the eastern Pacific Ocean A new pedunculate barnacle (Cirripedia: Heteralepadidae) from the Northwest Atlantic Two new species of seven-spined Bathyconchoecia from the North Atlantic and Indian oceans (Crustacea: Ostracoda: Halocypridae) The hermaphroditic sea anemone Anthopleura atodai n. sp. (Anthozoa: Actiniaria: Actiniidae) from Japan, with a redescription of A. hermaphroditica New species and new combinations in Rhysolepis (Heliantheae: Asteraceae)
Issue 4
Studies on western Atlantic Octocorallia (Coelenterata: Anthozoa). Part 5: The genera Plumarella Gray, 1870; Acanthoprimnoa, n. gen.; and Candidella Bayer, 1954 A new species of the sea anemone Megalactis (Cnidaria: Anthozoa: Actiniaria: Actinodendridae) from Taiwan and designation of a neotype for the type species of the genus A new genus and new species of crab of the family Xanthidae MacLeay, 1838 (Crustacea: Decapoda: Brachyura) from the southwestern Gulf of Mexico A new anchialine shrimp of the genus Procaris (Crustacea: Decapoda: Procarididae) from the Yucatan Peninsula Macrobrachium patheinense, a new species of freshwater prawn (Crustacea: Decapoda: Palaemonidae) from Myanmar A new species of Enhydrosoma Boeck, 1872 (Copepoda: Harpacticoida: Cletodidae) from the Eastern Tropical Pacific New record of Ophiosyzygus disacanthus Clark, 1911 (Echinodermata: Ophiuroidea: Ophiomyxidae) in the Caribbean Sea Sunagocia sainsburyi, a new flathead fish (Scorpaeniformes: Platycephalidae) from northwestern Australia A new species of Nannocharax (Characiformes: Distichodontidae) from Cameroon, with the description of contact organs and breeding tubercles in the genus Rhamdia guasarensis (Siluriformes: Heptapteridae), a new species of cave catfish from the Sierra de Perijá, northwestern Venezuela Taxonomic review of the fossil Procellariidae (Aves: Procellariiformes) described from Bermuda by R. W. Shufeldt Revision of the genus Squamigera (Insecta: Zygentoma: Nicoletiidae) with descriptions of two new species
Anybody should be able to tell that "The origin of biological information and the higher taxonomic categories" does not belong. It simply doesn't. A responsible editor would not even read this paper enough to know it was an ID paper. A responsible editor would send a note back saying "Sorry, this is inappropriate for this journal. Try somewhere else."getawitness
December 3, 2007
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Any researcher who can prove the existence of intelligent design within the accepted framework of science will make history and achieve eternal fame. They will prove at last that science and religious dogma are compatible. I have "proof" that science and religious dogma are compatible. To where or who do I submit it?John Kelly
December 3, 2007
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O'Leary writes: "Rick Sternberg suffered serious career harm in consequence of Darwinists’ rage over the Meyer paper in Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington - even though it had passed peer review." I hadn't heard of this case, so I just read what I could find on the 'net. The available information doesn't show any career harm -- it appears that Mr. Sternberg was able to keep working at the Smithsonian in his unpaid capacity for some time after the incident. Were there other consequences that have not been documented? More importantly, it appears that the Meyer article did not actually pass the normal peer review process. Mr. Sternberg was one of the reviewers, which is generally unacceptable when one has close ties to organizations that would benefit from its publication. He also refuses to provide the names of the other reviewers. This gives the impression, at least, of impropriety. All this information is available from a simple Google search. If you know of particular sites with more details, please post them.Maya
December 3, 2007
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Those Hollywood types are investing millions in the Expelled film on mere speculation? Though I have no doubt that Expelled will be an excellent film, I'm not sure we as a movement want to stake our integrity on the ability of Hollywood to accurately depict *anything*. Those people have no values and no scruples. They're *not* on our side.Nochange
December 3, 2007
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I have real proposal which would be very strong evidence of ID. If we (IDiots) are realy brave we could come up with predictions like existence of real biological programming language. I guess M$ guys mumbled something about translating DNS and whole inner work of Cell into Software code. I guess that would be not C++ or JAVA or even Assembler code, but very new language of very strange framework! But here is the catch. If (and we IDiots claim it is so) the DNS and whole machinery of Cell is designed, then there under whole that stuff lies plain and simple mathematics. Each programming language and software in theory boils down to mathematical function, very complex one, but it does. We have strong IT theory, so my bold prediction for ID would be, we will find basic IT constructs in the DNS and Cell software if and when we would map the functions into computer software. I am not sure if quantum uncertainity plays role in Cell's machinery, if so then we should wait for quantum computers. But if not, then proof that cell funkctions are 1:1 mapping to Software and basic ID construts, then it will be very strong argument. Sideffect of such research and Cell to Software mapping would be discoveries of new IT algortithms and approaches usable in everyday computer work. FOr example dual nature of code depending on context is real space saver in IT, nice to have in everyday life. I guess whole synchronization stuff and regulatory mechanisms, structures and data compression in DNS would be very good to have too! Good luck, my credetntials are too low to even begin such research!Shazard
December 3, 2007
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"Critics of heliocentrism are not the monsters you make them out to be. After all, Galileo still has his attached head and uncharred skin. Oh no, I didn't imply that Galileo hadn't been harmed. Far be it from me to do so! I was just pointing out that he wasn't persecuted, like say Giodorno Bruno was. Bruno's was merely an unfortunate aberration, to be sure, because geocentrists mean no harm really, being a friendly magnanimous bunch."angryoldfatman
December 3, 2007
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Darwinism is a theory, and theory is totalitarian in nature. Just as there can be no capitalists in a pure Marxist regime, so the Darwinists cannot tolerate any dissent in the fortresses they have constructed for themselves through their will to dominate. To admit, even for a moment, that someone like Dembski might be right is to put the whole enterprise at risk. Therefore the Dembskis must be suppressed. It is too, too dear to learn that some dissenters still have their posts. Nice of our Darwinist friends to be so tolerant, don’t you think? But what about the countless legions who never had an opportunity to have an academic post because of their lack of faith in Darwinism? What about the near-impossibility, at least until very recently, of getting anything published by mainstream publishers if you failed to toe the line? One hears from time to time that the vast majority of scientists are atheists or agnostics. Could it be because the Darwinists refused to allow anyone else into the club? Could it be that the faithful realized they were not welcome in the club of Huxley? Or were too disgusted by the animus of modern science to faith to want to join? Interest is coming due on a long history of bullying and exclusion. Darwinism has imperiled itself by obtaining the hegemony it desired. When the type of simpleminded idiocy seen in evolutionary psychology is taken seriously by the premier science journal in the land, then the end is at hand. Loss of the ability or desire to think critically is a sign of weakness, not strength. A new “wind” is blowing, and this time not from the swamps of the Darwinist propaganda machine. Many lines of inquiry are now converging to show that the story told by the materialists was just that—a story. And then its nakedness is revealed.allanius
December 3, 2007
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Kairosfocus, nice piece. I would like to add that there is of course cultural bigotry going on here as well. Im sure once you "come out of the closet" or people here from a 3rd party that you beleive in the theory of ID or as Ben Stein points out even question darwin, then you are shunned by your peers, coworkers, community etc. This is really a pathetic sight. Intellectual integrity has really fallen thanks to the people who hold the positions of power. The funny thing about all of this is that they have been excluding ID from being tought in public schools and as a logical consequence are trying to intelligently design a future incompatible with ID by breeding it out of peoples minds. The funny part is that it wont go away. Despite all the name calling and the 1 million to 1 schooling time DE gets over ID! I hope bens movie does well. I am definetly going to see it.Frost122585
December 3, 2007
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Good points, all of them.Frost122585
December 3, 2007
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The best attested fact in the intelligent design controversy right now is the systematic effort by Darwinists to ruin the careers of people who know evidence against Darwinism. In August I found myself starting at a whole panel of them. Apparently, both a movie AND a book are coming out this February on that very subject. The very next story I am about to write features precisely such an attempt to ruin a scientist's career. To say nothing of the fact that a scuzzbucket pesters me on a regular basis, in the process of seeking to ruin careers (not mine, happily). So now and then I get tired of hearing people write as though whether that is happening is, like, some kind of a controversy. Those Hollywood types are investing millions in the Expelled film on mere speculation? Not likely. And I would think there'll be people in the audience saying, "Wow, that's what happened to me too. I thought I was the only one ... "O'Leary
December 3, 2007
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OLeary,
One more such emission from you and I will ban you from this forum.
Ouch! I didn't think that his comment was that outrageous. I mean at the higher levels you have people who are already pretty well off and the effect's of ID on individual people while I am sure is very present isn't as horrible as you seem to take it. If it is please specify because I would like to know about the instances. They would be very useful information for debates. That said I haven’t studied it at all. I can say that as a political conservative (by and large I’m not super right wing) I often get treated like crap in collage by teachers. Down graded and such. Not to conflate ID with conservatives or neoliberal political philosophy, but it is the same thing in the community of academia. I don’t think however that at the highest levels there is a personal onslaught of constant harassment on ID advocates. Now I do think there is a witch hunt going on and that is to oust the creationist! This is the anti religious who are constantly looking for anything that looks like religion so they can save the day take out their inner rage and kill it. I’m sure this is what happened to Sternberg. I am just a little weary of taking well educated well off people who got into an institutional war in the sciences and hold them up as martyrs or w/e. Anyway the point is that there is a huge amount of anti ID propaganda out there that is being propped up by anti religious bigots. ID has a lot of work to do to get its academic and institutional freedom back. But to do so requires telling the facts like they are and listening to other people's opinions then changing their minds with facts. You shouldn't sink to the level of your opponents unless you have to and I don’t think there is any argument that forces ID to revert to politics because it "can" win the debate. In expelled the Meyer peer review case will get its media attention and it should. I am the kind of person who judges people on their intentions. If they make an effort and support their arguments with real substance and are willing to be open minded to my point of view I wont silence them unless they are constantly in the business of battling over and over on the same points with no new information. I look at comments like getawittne's as an opportunity to make my case for ID or institutional persecution heard again for new people to see. I dont think I am exactly going to change your mind but I mean what I said in all respect of you, this is just my opinion of how to get the job done no offense meant. Im a Booker T. Washington type of guy not a W. E. B. Du Bois type.Frost122585
December 3, 2007
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PS: Checked -- the Souder report and appendices are blocked now.kairosfocus
December 2, 2007
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GAW: Kindly look here to see just what the initial investigation of the Sternberg case found out. (There is a lot more on Dr Sternberg's site, and there is more from this report and these appendices by US Congress staff. [Hope they have not been torn down . . . . I have copies in my vaults.] Much of this is a simple web search away.) If you don't know about what has been happening, I think you would be wiser to listen and investigate rather than to assert things like: All of these gentlemen still have their posts, and Gonzalez is the only one who is likely to lose his. So the idea that “Darwinists” are “driv[ing] them from their posts” is a bit much. There are also a lot of other cases of harassment, unjustified career busting and outright persecution, at different levels, over the span of decades, going back to what was done to the likes of Dean Kenyon -- who changed his mind on biochemical predestination in light of the findings reported in Thaxton et al's TMLO -- and beyond. (Read Johnson's Reason in the Balance for a review.) In the Gonzalez case I think he made a basic strategic mistake: opening his mouth before he had tenure. [There is a name for this: politically correct censorship!] So, a slander campaign was spread against him [and its initiator has been rewarded at the same time as he is being cut off], in a context that being controversial would be likely indeed to dry up funding, and make wise grad students think twice before joining up. So never mind over 60 papers and powerful innovative ideas in Galactic habitable zones etc,we have our excuse and out he goes. We better wake up fast and smell the smoke -- before we all get caught up in the conflagration of our liberties. Liberties that BTW, are historically and small-c constitutionally [as well as arguably big-C constitutionally] anchored in the concept that we are created by a Creator who has endowed us with unalienable rights. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
December 2, 2007
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Denyse, Is it me, but in your last few posts here and on your own blog, you seem to be getting increasingly more angry. Sure, you've always had little epithets for Darwinists, but not it seems to be getting a little more nasty ("Darwinthugs", "Scuzzbuckets". Really?) Obviously you feel very passionate about the topic at hand; but I think your tone is becoming so shrill and derogatory, that it is getting in the way of your message. I think if you want evolutionists or atheists to listen, I don't think your highly polemical style is going to garner many listeners. Remember, you're a journalist, so you are trained to be objective. Maybe you need to take a break from this for a while? Go smell the roses, perhaps? No offense, but you really aren't adding much value right now in your writings...tdean
December 2, 2007
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Denyse, I was making a somewhat small correction. I didn't say "people were not harmed," and I don't have any "favourite thugs." I said only one of the four people you mentioned have been driven from their posts. It's a small point, and one that I would imagine you, as a journalist who values careful use of language, would appreciate. I'm perfectly willing to admit that Dr. Sternberg's career has been harmed by the process, though I don't know the specifics of the case that well. Dr. Marks and Dr. Behe have tenure, of course, so they're in a more protected position.getawitness
December 2, 2007
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getawitness, I have now caught you doing the usual Darwinist crap of claiming that people were not harmed by Darwinthugs when they in fact were. Rick Sternberg suffered serious career harm in consequence of Darwinists' rage over the Meyer paper in Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington - even though it had passed peer review. One more such emission from you and I will ban you from this forum. We don't abet persecutions here. Okay? Your usual drivel is just your usual drivel, but when you resort to claiming that your favourite thugs have done no harm - that's different. Or else I just noticed you now and I am enforcing. M'kay?O'Leary
December 2, 2007
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Denyse,
What ABOUT Rick Sternberg, Guillermo Gonzalez, and Robert Marks? To say nothing of Mike Behe?
All of these gentlemen still have their posts, and Gonzalez is the only one who is likely to lose his. So the idea that "Darwinists" are "driv[ing] them from their posts" is a bit much.getawitness
December 2, 2007
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It isn't as easy as just looking at evidence or "hey, any scientist who proves this will win fame." Hollywood makes much more money when they make family-friendly films. But they don't get the "artistic credibility" when they aren't throwing in sex scenes or vulgarity. People don't always operate on the basis of earning riches and fame. When you have a community that is dominated by materialism or at least materialistic thought, they filter evidence through their materialistic beliefs. When you are convinced there must be a naturalistic answer, you come up with naturalistic answers.geoffrobinson
December 2, 2007
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Behe did eventually admit that Abbie Smith had found a valid counter-example to his thesis.Benjamin L. Harville
December 2, 2007
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First of all, if there was conclusive, or even, "yeah gee this looks convincing" evidence in favor of unguided evolution there would be no debate raging right now. So all the darwinists have to do is put forth *their* "mountain" of evidence that shows how nature creates beings out of itself - to manipulate itself - all without a real mind, and ID goes away. But conjecture about finch beaks and flowers in a pot of deep time really doesn't prove squat. So it seems to me that why we have this problem is that the observed facts do not fit the proposed *theory*! Now on the ID side, I guess what we would need for evidence would be something like, oh, say, showing how a parasite after countless generations didn't do a d*mn thing. But I guess that's just wishful thinking eh? On the other hand, finding a digital code embedded in living things, cellular machinery, and a fossil record which shows the sudden appearance of fully formed complex life forms was no surprise to darwinists.shaner74
December 2, 2007
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