Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

A sociologist’s perceptive look at “theistic evolution”

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Recently, I have been reading Warwick U sociologist Steve Fuller’s Dissent over Descent: Intelligent Design’s Challenge to Darwinism, and was intrigued by his comments about “theistic evolution”, as understood by members of the American Scientific Affiliation and promoted by Francis Collins in The Language of God:

Theistic evolutionists … simply take what Collins calls ‘the existence of the moral law and the universal longing for God” as a feature of human nature that is entrenched enough to be self-validating. But is their dismissal anything more than an arbitrary theological intervention? If humans are indeed, as the Darwinists say, just one among many species, susceptible to the same general tendencies that can be studied in the same general terms, then findings derived from methods deemed appropriate to animals should apply to us as well. Collins’ own comprehensive but exclusive training in the hard sciences may explain why he believes in a God who communicates straightforwardly through the natural sciences but appears less willing to cooperate with the social sciences, including such biologically inflected fields as sociobiology and evolutionary psychology. Instead Collins finds intuition, anecdote, theology and sheer faith to be more reliable sources of evidence. Why God should have chosen not to rely on the usual standards of scientific rigour in these anthropocentric matters remains a mystery. (p. 104-5)

Collins is unlikely to understand the problem Fuller raises – why should anyone take Collins’s faith as anything more than an evolutionary glitch?

I am glad that a sociologist is researching the debate, because ASA-style theistic evolution makes sense only as sociology. It doesn’t make sense intellectually. As I have said elsewhere, it is a solution to a problem that doesn’t exist (= how you can continue to believe in God even though the universe shows no evidence of design). But everyone realizes that the universe shows evidence of design. Design theorists must explain it, and materialists must explain it away.

The other, less benign role of theistic evolution is to confuse traditional religious people by implying that, for example, “you can believe in Darwin – and Jesus too!” Well, Darwin didn’t.

The way you believe in Jesus and Darwin too is by keeping yourself in a permanent state of confusion about the basic issues, or, Collins-style, not really understanding them. Some clergy are happy to help.

A friend alerted me to this article which nicely illustrates the muddle in progress. The article features the efforts of the Vatican to address the current Darwin cult. My friend asked me for a comment, and I replied,

Well, I hope the reason they are trying to play all sides of the table (except Dawkins’s) is that they know that “evolution” is in a state of meltdown.

If not, they will soon find out. I think the Church’s antiquity is partly the result of avoiding taking a position until necessary – and there is always the Galileo affair to remind us of what happens when we fail to adopt that course.

From the news article: “In his article, “Darwinism From Different Points of View,” he explained that Darwinian theories of natural selection are only completely unacceptable to the church when they are used to become the basis for justifying certain social policies and ethical choices.”

The main problem here would be instantly identified by ID godfather Phil Johnson: If Darwinian theories are a correct account of our origin and nature, then it is reasonable to use them to justify social policies and ethical choices.

To refuse to focus on whether the Darwinian account is true raises the possibility that we regard our own bases of action as a pleasant fiction and theirs as an unpleasant one. But that is a matter of taste, surely, and the subject should be put to a vote.

If, on the other hand, we can say Darwin was wrong about human nature (for that is the point at issue), we can reject the proposed social policies that depend on them without further consideration. More important, we can defend our own proposed policies as proceeding from a correct estimation of human worth, not merely our preference.

About that question, the most obscure backwoods six-day-creation crank is far more clued in than many a Jesuit prof, I fear.

Basically, I think Fuller is right. Theistic evolution is for people who find “intuition, anecdote, theology and sheer faith to be more reliable sources of evidence” when it comes to religion, and flee the implications of design in nature. No wonder the atheistic evolutionists use them but don’t respect them.

Also, just up at Post-Darwinist

Why the education system needs to inculcate materialism and Darwinism

Now that it’s all in ruins, they’re fighting over the rubble?

Another first for Canada? Intelligent comments about intelligent design?

So what has atheism done for science lately? Hint: a bunch of atheist books that use the word “science” a lot

Clergyman: Blame Darwin, not yourself, if you are unfaithful to your spouse!

Liberal fascism: A survival manual for non-fascists in Canada (and probably in Europe)

Comments
The data shows that there are about 800 disease causing point mutations that are shared between humans and chimps. Are you saying that diseases are beneficial and that is why these were kept over the eons? The data shows that there are many alleles that are shared between humans and chimps. Common design. Why would a designer re-invent a new gene for a similar functional protein? The data shows evidence of retroviruses whose DNA was implanted in the genome — by the same retrovirus in the same location in both human and chimp DNA. And humans share ERVs with hamsters and not chimps. So does that mean we evolved from hamsters?Joseph
August 6, 2008
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"The majority of posters on this thread cherrypick evidence to fit their interpretation of an open Bible. This is no way to do science, folks!" ------------------------ I'm not trying to frustrate you or anyone but I do think it's the pot calling the kettle black though talking about cherry picking evidence. I'm not an ID'r. Never claimed to be. I am a YEC. I read everything here because I find it interesting that there is a groundswell against Darwinism. I like that and in that sense support it. I'm not here to cause trouble in any form. Just found a thread that was theological and commented on it. You were one of the first to bring up theological issues. Why ask others to keep to science if you don't? Also, I respect your struggles. I have mine as well. I don't think you're not a Christian because you are trying to balance these two issues. I just come at this from a different angle. God's Word can be trusted as written. Everything else is held up to it never the other way around.ellijacket
August 6, 2008
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bFast wrote:
In fact, the only other option that I can see is that God is a fooler, that God is trying to trick the scientific community into getting it wrong.
Or it could be that what we think are surely "retrovirus markers" are not that at all. (See P.Borger's paper on evoinfo.org for his take on it.) Simply put, your dilemma may not be a dilemma at all once we understand DNA and its mechanisms fully. This reminds me of what I'm reading in Maimonides' book on Aristotelian science/philosophy "The Guide for the Perplexed." He argues that the stars MUST be made out of different substance than the earthly elements since they exist within the celestial sphere (that moves), yet they remain stationary. The stars did not move in circular motion (like the spheres), or in a straight line (like earthly elements), therefore they MUST have been composed of a different type of substance. Or the entire theory of celestial spheres could have been wrong and their understanding of the heavens mistaken. What was obvious and apparent and supported by all the best scientific evidence was completely wrong. In the same way, let's not force false dilemmas based on processes we barely understand (DNA's mechanisms) and questionable assumptions (molecular clocks, similarity is always a result of descent, etc), but let's just keep a running tab of the data and try to think outside the box from time to time. The resolution may be that we're wrong about our beginning framework and once we change the starting assumptions everything will harmonize rather nicely.Atom
August 6, 2008
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This thread is frustrating. If all I knew about ID was in this thread, I would agree with those who claim that ID is just creationism (YEC) in a cheap tuxedo -- that ID is not presenting the whole truth about what its position is, but lying to score a few points. ID's motto is to follow the evidence where it leads. The majority of posters on this thread cherrypick evidence to fit their interpretation of an open Bible. This is no way to do science, folks! Any old-life model must include death prior to humanity's arrival! Even the young earth model must explain why God would make a senseless thing -- a biosphere that cannot thrive because there is no death. Why would God need Adam to sin so that his creation would finally make sense. StephenB -- one Adam or a community of pre-humans that eventually became human. That is your question. I need not ask a scientist. I need only look at the data. The data shows that there are about 800 disease causing point mutations that are shared between humans and chimps. The data shows that there are many alleles that are shared between humans and chimps. The data shows evidence of retroviruses whose DNA was implanted in the genome -- by the same retrovirus in the same location in both human and chimp DNA. Now, if humanity was at one point reduced to two humans, then all of these markings would have had to have passed throught that narrow point. In one man and one woman we would have to do some careful selecting to get all of this data through the filter of the 4 genomes that we have available. It could be that God intentionally preserved this data that for all the world looks like a community, rather than an individual, became human. Why would God do that? This evidence alone strongly supports the premise that a community became human, rather than a pair. In fact, the only other option that I can see is that God is a fooler, that God is trying to trick the scientific community into getting it wrong.bFast
August 6, 2008
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Apollos; you did an excellent job laying out the framework here, and I agree with what you are saying. The description of the peaceable kingdom, and our future, would also support no killing before the fall, as you point out. One point that I've always brought up and asked theistic evolutionists is; if God making Adam out of the ground is metaphor for evolution, then how was Eve really made? To be logically consistent, it has to be from a different mechanism than evolution. And, if they say that she was indeed made from Adam's rib, then why couldn't God really do what is described and make Adam directly from the earth? From a Christian perspective, any alternative POV than what is clearly laid out in scripture must also be logically consistent. Also, if the person is a Christian I assume they believe in the truth of the scripture (even if they think it metaphor), so any metaphor must be 100% accurate in its comparisons.Kliska
August 6, 2008
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“Unless a grain of wheat falls to the earth and dies, it remains alone”. ---------------- That is taking a spiritual truth and applying it to the physical. No where in this context does this point to physical death. Jesus was talking about dying to ourselves for His Kingdom. I guess the question here is if death was such a good thing and was ok before Adam (assuming a before Adam) then why was he instructed to eat only plants (plants not having blood are not considered to have a soul. The Hebrew shows this meaning in the use of the word soul). Also, the animals did not eat each other in the garden. We see a picture of no death, no physical death and no spiritual death. The Fall brought both. Only after the Fall do we see animals dying. The first as a sacrifice for Adam and Eve. I've been trying to play devil's advocate in my mind and argue the other side from Scripture. There is no evidence in Scripture that there was death before Adam and/or that God has ever thought death was good.ellijacket
August 6, 2008
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The problem I have here is the “dying” part. I definitely don’t view death as a creative force, nor as anything good. and therein is my point. Notice how many times you said "I". So, you don't view death as a creative force, nor anything good. But, how about God? "Unless a grain of wheat falls to the earth and dies, it remains alone". This is my point of "a God you can live with". Perhaps God doesn't see it as such a problem. Do you think that grains of wheat did not die before the Fall? Did all ants, rabbits, and raccoons not die but keep multiplying? Well, in your case, you'll make an exception because it fits with your predisposed worldview. I'm just saying that there is a lot more out there that we don't know, and many more options might be open. I'm not criticizing you, because I come from the same tradition. I'm just trying to open up my mind to some broader ideas about God, and not try to shoehorn it into my 20th Century American evangelical background. So, I believe Romans is focusing on the spiritual condition of man. You have brought (like I used to) the physical condition in along with it - and that might not be the correct interpretation.TomRiddle
August 6, 2008
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TomRiddle, "Why can’t there be hominids throughout the Earth, living and dying, and then God takes two and moves them out of the “general population” and into Eden where he breathes into them a spiritual awareness." The problem I have here is the "dying" part. I definitely don't view death as a creative force, nor as anything good. This is based on what little I know about scripture. It seems from the testimony of scripture that death -- all death -- came as a result of sin -- Adam's sin. Romans 5 strongly suggests no death prior to sin. If this is not the case, I would expect to find reasonable scriptural support for the notion. Certainly we can imagine things anyway we want, but as Christians we should be able to reconcile our views with Scripture, unless we demote the testimony, in which case it seems a weak thread to hang our faith on. (1Co 15:54) "When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory." If death was not an enemy of life, why should it be swallowed up in victory? If death is a positive force prior to sin, then why not a positive force for the future of Christ's Kingdom, and beyond, into eternity? (Rev 21:4) "He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away." "And, I think your interpretation, while valid, may not be a slam dunk, either. It is convenient, but it may be too one dimensional, and the actual truth is more robust." I would agree in that our understanding of the truth is often but a shadow of it; however if we are to take scripture at its word, then we're not talking about my interpretation so much as the meaning of Paul's words in Romans 5, which appear unequivocal. Either death came through sin which came through Adam, or it didn't. I think it's fine to contemplate a spiritual history prior to Adam, I just wouldn't be comfortable giving it credence over scripture, unless I had decided the Bible's revelation was lacking, and my own imaginings were somehow comforting. By the way, I'm fine with believers taking an "I don't know" view on how to reconcile scripture with a contemporary (and transitory, IMO) view of natural history. But when you've decided up front to make scripture subject to this same interpretation of unobserved natural history, it may very well place faith on shaky ground. If we can't believe what the Bible says about our creation or about death, then on what basis do we accept the testimony regarding our destiny, or of eternal life? Once again I agree that a little humility is in order when positing what we think we know of scripture, but it's far too tempting to place all of it's meaning behind a shadowy veil of uncertainty. "But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit." (2Co 3:16-18)Apollos
August 5, 2008
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bfast: My use of the term monogenism refers to the theory of singular first parents (either nameless or referring specifically to Adam and Eve), which, as you know, is the official Christian world view. My use of polygenism refers to multiple first parents (perhaps thousands) as put forth by many anthropologists, geneticists, geologists, paleontologists, and other scientists. For all practical purposes, to posit monogenism is to argue for a literal Adam and Eve or something equivalent. To posit polygenism is to argue against that proposition, which, of course, complicates the problem of original sin and causes some to even question it. Most mainstream Christians accept monogenism, but some feel the need to accept polygenism as the best way to reconcile modern scientific claims with their faith.StephenB
August 5, 2008
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StephenB, what has monogenism and polygenism got to do with anything I said? If I understand correctly polygenism suggests that humanity arose multiple times, creating the primary races. Monogenism suggests that humanity arose only once. Have I got this wrong? What has that got to do with the question of common descent and of a literal adam.bFast
August 5, 2008
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Apollos, Why can't there be hominids throughout the Earth, living and dying, and then God takes two and moves them out of the "general population" and into Eden where he breathes into them a spiritual awareness. "Adam", in his unique relationship with God, rejects God's gift of life in the Garden, and thus subjects all men to God's punishment. Perhaps "all have sinned", but God has held "Adam" accountable for that sin, or simply points to Adam as an example. Just as Abraham (and not his father) is father of the Jews, perhaps Adam is the "point-person" for spiritual accountability. Now, this is purely speculation, and I don't know if it is sound. But, those are the kinds of questions (and I think the questions of bFast) that I am trying to grapple with. And, I think your interpretation, while valid, may not be a slam dunk, either. It is convenient, but it may be too one dimensional, and the actual truth is more robust.TomRiddle
August 5, 2008
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vjtorley wrote:
...but the fact that both species have the same-SIZED “genetic kit” in their MHC complex, coupled with the fact that they have both preserved the same VARIANTS (subject to the odd mutation or two over the course of history) of the different MHC genes, strikes me as too impressive a coincidence to be due to anything other than common ancestry
How close is the alignment between the two species? (You say "same VARIANTS" etc, but I've been led astray by exaggeration before in the past. Not saying you would exaggerate, but perhaps your sources have.) If humans and chimps had all the same allele variations, then this could be for a reason...we shouldn't just assume the variety serves no function and is itself the result of blind forces. Again, assuming "no function" has a very poor track record. The stronger the exactness of the match, the stronger I'd think there was a functional reason for the variety, and maybe even the particular varieties. Also, have we observed (not inferred) the rate of allele change in these loci? I think that would be a step towards quantitatively looking at the issue. I'll be thinking about this. Thanks for giving us something interesting to discuss.Atom
August 5, 2008
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Atom and Stephen B, Thanks for the comments. Atom, you've correctly grasped the key point, which is that family trees of genes may look nothing like those of the individuals who carry them. The genes in our MHC complex vary so much between individuals that their family tree is even more ancient than the human-chimp split. We can deduce this from the odd fact that I may be carrying a variant of a gene in my MHC complex which is closer to that of the corresponding gene in a chimp in the zoo than it is to that of the corresponding gene carried by my next door neighbor, even though my neighbor is a human being. The authors of the article I cited (Francisco J. Ayala, Anaias Escalante, Colm O'Huigin, and Jan Klein) argue that we can use the similarities in these genes between members of closely related species to draw up a family tree, and that the sheer number of variants of MHC genes that are shared in common between humans and chimps precludes the possibility of there ever having been a bottleneck of two individuals in the human line. I take your point that there is much we do not understand about the function of these genes, Atom. But for me the key question is: can similarities in these different versions be validly used to construct genetic family trees? The only alternative is that the similarities are due to some sort of convergence. Professor John Bloom of Biola University thinks not: "A common history of exposure to pathogens is a far cry from common ancestry It remains to be shown that the common chimpanzee human patterns arose without any external selection pressure. Otherwise, the data do not distinguish a common pathogen or other convergent pressure from a common ancestor" (see "On Human Origins: A Survey. Christian Scholar's Review," Winter 1997, at http://www.cccu.org/resourcecenter/resID.974,parentCatID.245/rc_detail.asp). I am not a geneticist, but what impresses me is the additional fact that the NUMBER of different variants of these MHC genes is about the same in both chimps and humans. Common exposure to pathogens might explain the similarities between the variants in chimps and humans, but the fact that both species have the same-SIZED "genetic kit" in their MHC complex, coupled with the fact that they have both preserved the same VARIANTS (subject to the odd mutation or two over the course of history) of the different MHC genes, strikes me as too impressive a coincidence to be due to anything other than common ancestry. IF this is the case, then the problem of how the preservation of this diversity is to be reconciled with the theological datum of an original couple is a real one. My own comment here is that nothing in the genetic data can tell us when individuals in the human line acquired the ability to make a free and informed decision to reject God. Such an ability is God-given - it presupposes but is not explained by the possession of a brain of a certain size and complexity. It may well be that two individuals in the human line made the original and fateful decision that has "cut the communication lines" between us and our Maker. Afterwards, other individuals may have crossed the mental Rubicon, so to speak (i.e. acquired a human soul), but as they came into a world already spoiled by the choice of the first two people, they had to put up with the consequences. My guess is that those individuals who refused to acquiesce in the original act of wickedness may have been exterminated by their contemporaries, with the result that all currently living individuals are the descendants of Adam AND those individuals who were only later endowed with the gift of free will, but who nevertheless applauded Adam's crime. That's about as good a job as I can do of reconciling the genetic data with Romans 5. If anyone has a better proposal, I am all ears.vjtorley
August 5, 2008
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TomRiddle, I'll hazard an answer to your question directed at ellijacket. "(Rom 5:12) Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned-- (Rom 5:13) for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. (Rom 5:14) Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come." Paul makes it clear that sin entered through Adam, and death through sin. At face value, this means "no Adam, no sin, no death" or in historical order: Adam->sin->death. Only if we're willing to conclude that Paul was either ignorant, or deceptive (irrespective of motive) can we conclude that death preceded Adam (and sin) unless we can live with the notion that the Bible just isn't correct on these issues, or that the Holy Spirit saw fit to communicate something other than historical reality.Apollos
August 5, 2008
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vjtorley: Thanks for the references. Ayala’s study was interesting, scholarly, and challenging to those who believe in a literal Adam and Eve. Just as Atom questions some of the assumptions in Ayala’s study, I question some of the extrapolations. My comments to bfast will be relevant. Bfast: Yes, many scientists do propose polygenism, but there are also a few, including the late great geneticist Jerome Lejeune, who can accept monogenism. This, it seems to me, is the problem. Our challenge is less about accepting the “findings” of science and more about choosing which scientists we find most credible. Mainstream science responds to belief in monogenism in the same way it responds to belief intelligent design. They discourage it because they don’t like it. Could it be that some advocates of polygenism are motivated by a desire to trump the doctrine of original sin just as Darwin was motivated to trump Paley’s principle of design? A clever researcher can often stack the deck and produce a desired outcome. Secularists and TEs continually seek an evolutionary pathway toward complexity in living organisms just as they continually seek a genetic pathway away from Adam and Eve. Quite often, the predispositions of the researcher and the source of the funding have more to do with the outcome of a study than do the methods employed. Also, it is important to remember that, in terms of scientific breakthroughs, a small minority of geniuses do most of the heavy lifting. Meanwhile, the herd, which has all of the institutional power, persecutes the genius--- right up to the time that the genius is proven right. The most respected scientists of their day told Edison that electric lights can’t work and they told the Wright brothers that airplanes can’t fly. Today, their ideological successors indulge in their own brand of cynicism and skepticism, except for one thing---this time they use the academy not simply to discourage innovation (design thinking) but to expel anyone who would dare think about it. The broader point is that there is no substitute for coherent thinking. On the one hand, Truth is indivisible, though it can manifest itself in different ways. Theology, philosophy, and science each investigates some aspect of the truth. That means that sound Biblical exegesis will never contradict sound scientific research. On the other hand, many TEs and Darwinists believe that truth is either divisible or non attainable, clinging to one truth for theology and another truth for scientific research. That is a problem, because it breeds fragmented thinking and lost confidence in the usefulness of reason. Someone recently asked TE and ID critic Robert Russell this question: “George Gaylord Simpson said that evolution is a purposeless, mindless process that did not have man in mind.” “Yes or no.” Russell responded, “from science, the answer is ‘yes’; from theology, the answer is ‘no’.” All the great scientists of the past did not judge the world this way. They insisted that they were “thinking God’s thoughts after him.” The idea that God has one idea of teleology and that we have another idea of teleology would have been laughable. The whole idea behind science is that, even though our knowledge is finite and delicate, we are, nevertheless, on the same page with God. God reveals himself in Scripture and he reveals himself in nature. To suggest that thoes two revelations are incompatible is to militate against reason and court despair. We must begin every intellectual enterprise with the attitude that we live in a rational universe. That presents us with two complimentary principles: [A] We should never accept a religious belief system unless it passes the test of reason, but [B] If that religious belief system does pass the test of reason, we should then allow it to illuminate our reason. TEs do well with [A] but they have a real problem with [B].StephenB
August 5, 2008
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bFast, you and I seem to be on a similar journey, and coming to similar conclusions. Ellijacket, please keep asking your questions. they are excellent, and force me to really examine how I re-understand theology. Just keep in mind that the quick solution is to "create a God you can live with". That is a very two dimensional God. bFast is going through a major overhaul of his theology, in light of his understanding of nature. American evangelicalism doesn't like to work like this :-) So, I am asking the same questions that Ellijacket is, but within the framework of what bFast is concluding. It may lead to a more rewarding faith. For example Ellijacket, why do you have to believe there is no death before the Fall? The passages in the NT always seem to focus on spiritual life/death. So, death and regeneration is a part of God's creation. But, spiritual death is a part of the separation of man and God, that was reconciled by Jesus Christ. I now see them as 2 different things. Similarly, while God could create an Earth in 6 days, I find it much more glorious that he would sit back and enjoy the "unfolding" of his creation over billions of years. That seems more in line with a God who is really jazzed by the glorious nature of things.TomRiddle
August 5, 2008
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ellijacket:
If just these two, and we could go further, issues are in error then Christianity and the need for Christ are dead. I’m really curious how you get around this.
bfast #13:
I therefore live with the tension that these two models of truth do not fit nicely together.
StephenB:
Inasmuch as TEs claim to believe in Christian theology, it seems fair to ask them why they compromise it at every turn.
TEs and many IDers "compromise at every turn" to account for the physical evidence brought forth by the scientific community. The other options that I can find are: turn a blind eye to the scientific evidence, radically conclude that the evidence is misinterpreted, or abandon Christianity. None of these options are the least bit ideal.bFast
August 5, 2008
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magnan: I don't think ellijacket is plunging into a doctrinal dispute. The point he/she is making is that New Testament Christianity is inseparable from Old Testament typology. According to classical Christianity, the Old Testament is the New Testament concealed; the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed. Inasmuch as TEs claim to believe in Christian theology, it seems fair to ask them why they compromise it at every turn.StephenB
August 5, 2008
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I wasn't trying to make it anything. Just responding to an already theological comment. I hardly post here but felt the comments were useful to things stated about TE in posts 4, 6 and others.ellijacket
August 5, 2008
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ellijacket, be careful. It would be nice to avoid doctrinal disputes over whose religion is the truth and whose is false. This is supposed to be an ID blog. Denyse: "The way you believe in Jesus and Darwin too is by keeping yourself in a permanent state of confusion about the basic issues, or, Collins-style, not really understanding them. Some clergy are happy to help." Brilliant. I would just make it "Jesus, God, or any notions of a spiritual reality"magnan
August 5, 2008
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"3 - Both the scientists and the theologians have it wrong. 4 - Nature is not truth. 5 - The Bible is not truth. 6 - Neither Nature nore the Bible is truth. I personally go with number 3, above." -------------------- Let's dump deep theology for the moment and just look at the basics. 1. The Fall. If it didn't happen then there is no need for Jesus. It cannot happen without Adam as the Bible makes no other provision for it. (Dawkin makes this point alot). 2. Death before sin (as common descent would require) also gives us issue. If there was death before sin then sin didn't bring death. This would eviscerate Christianity. If just these two, and we could go further, issues are in error then Christianity and the need for Christ are dead. I'm really curious how you get around this.ellijacket
August 5, 2008
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vjtorley, I read the paper you linked (http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?isbn=0309051916) and it seems to build the case around a couple assumptions. (You can correct me if I misunderstood it.) They start by arguing that if you have three alleles (A,B,C), two from the same species (A,B) and one from a different species (allele C), and if A is more similar to C than it is to B (if interspecies divergence is greater than intraspecies divergence), then A and B must have split geneologically before A and C split. If two humans have A and B, yet chimpanzee allele C is closer to one of them than they are to eachother, the human ancestors must have split from each other before the human-chimp common ancestor did. Am I reading this right? If so, I find that assumption odd as well as not convincing. Also, given the fact that we're just learning about what poly-functions DNA has (multiple layers of encoding), and how scientists have been repeatedly wrong about assuming lack of function (vestigial organs, junk DNA, etc), it seems premature at best to start building cases based on assumptions of DNA change mechanisms we barely understand. If there is some mechanism other than just random (unguided) variation causing new alleles to develop, then the conclusions reached in the paper don't follow. Furthermore, what if I don't begin with the assumption that Chimps and humans share a common ancestor? Does similarity always have to indicate common descent? Interesting paper, but I don't know if it really presents a knock down argument. I could be wrong (I could have misunderstood it), so I'm open to your thoughts.Atom
August 5, 2008
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elijacket:
Ultimately, we have to ask, is subjective science so good that it trumps what you believe to be God’s truth?
"The heavens declare the glory of God."(PS 19:1) The truth of nature is as much "truth" as Biblical truth is. Both theologians and scientists are fallible interpreters of the truth. I see no reason to elevate the interpreters of Biblical truth (including myself) above the status of the interpreters of the truth of nature. In both cases the foundational evidence is presented. In both case an interpretation of the evidence is presented. The two interpretations are incompatible with each other. As such one of six possibilities exist: 1 - The interpreters of the evidence of nature (the scientists) are all wrong. 2 - The interpreters of the Bible (theologians) are all wrong. 3 - Both the scientists and the theologians have it wrong. 4 - Nature is not truth. 5 - The Bible is not truth. 6 - Neither Nature nore the Bible is truth. I personally go with number 3, above. I think that the scientists are wrong, that agency is a better explanation of the evidence than chance + necessity is. I think that the theologians are wrong, that at least everything pre-Abraham has a "ledgand passed down" qualitiy to it, and must be treated as such. mynym, I like your gardening analogy. What I see in the evidence is that life has been nurtured, like a gardener nurtures his crops.bFast
August 5, 2008
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I would actually find the concept that God built us on law alone, and that God intentionally left himself masked to be more spiritually rewarding than believing that there are multiple acts of agency in the record, that God tweaked along the way. I've never quite understood that. Whatever else might be said the Christian God is the gardening God that gets His hands "dirty" and takes on the humiliating experience of becoming human, almost just humus. If the Christian God exists then the purity of logic, form and law typical to Aristotle's unmoved Mover or Plato's demiurge is a myth. Given the Christian view a spiritual reality is not pure just because it never touches or "tinkers" with the physical except through logic and laws. The mechanistic tick tock view of Nature as a Clock may not be true anyway. The notion of a Blind Watchmaker is merely a reaction to the original notion of a Watchmaker, yet both views may be based on a false view which brings up the issue of an engineer "tinkering" or not. The apparent logic of a mechanistic view also avoids the issue of will. If humans are capable of choice then the whole supposed beauty of a programmed system which need not be tinkered with or "tweaked" dissolves into ripples of cause and effect that trace back to choices. If there is any real choice in the matter at all then the whole "programmed" system collapses. If we admit that people have the capacity for choice then one has to ask how far back in time did they have it and how did it shape an evolution that was supposedly programmed by law? It seems that the denial of agency has to be total in order to save the supposed purity of the mechanistic tick tock of Clockwork view, yet on the other hand a proponent of agency can admit both to general laws, mechanisms while also being open to the possibility of exceptions and limitations. A short story on the topic: http://mynym.blogspot.com/2005/11/to-have-prayer.htmlmynym
August 5, 2008
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I hit submit too quickly.... Ultimately, we have to ask, is subjective science so good that it trumps what you believe to be God's truth?ellijacket
August 5, 2008
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bFast, I'm not trying to bash you at all. Just asking the some hard questions. Not expecting answers in this forum. Just brother to brother, something to chew on...ellijacket
August 5, 2008
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StephenB:
Yes, but at least you are intellectually honest. Unlike the typical TE, you don’t claim to be a “devout” believer in Christianity while denying the existence of our first parents and their “original” sin.
Actually, I am every bit as intellectually dishonest as the typical TE. Which is to say, though I deny the existance of a literal Adam and Eve, I would very much describe myself as a "devout" believer. StephenB, "What do you mean by “theological advantage?”" I mean that neither the UCD accepting variant of ID nor the TE position are more easily reconciled with Christian theology. I recognize that my current position is herasy to the usual evangelical, of which I am. Yet I cannot be so intellectually dishonest that I deny the scientific evidence. I therefore live with the tension that these two models of truth do not fit nicely together.bFast
August 5, 2008
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For an alternative view of the data concerning man's past: www.crev.info and click on "Early Man".Saint and Sinner
August 5, 2008
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Stephen B, If you would like some background material on the scientific problems associated with a literal interpretation of the Genesis account of Adam and Eve, please check this out: http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?isbn=0309051916 "Tempo and Mode in Evolution: Genetics and Paleontology 50 Years After Simpson" (1995) by the National Academy of Sciences. The article shows that human ancestral populations could never have been smaller than two or three thousand individuals at any time over the last several million years. Click on the chapter entitled "Molecular Genetics of Speculation and Human Origins" (pp. 187-212). For an in-depth discussion (from a Catholic perspective) of how to reconcile the latest scientific findings with belief in Biblical inerrancy, please see the following: http://jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2006/10/monogenism_scie.html The post makes for interesting reading, but the controversy in the subsequent posts by readers gets rather heated. Happy hunting.vjtorley
August 5, 2008
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As for Adam and Eve, given that so few individual humans are our direct universal ancestors (if the conventional theory of our origins is correct), I do not know of a compelling reason to doubt their actual existence, The scientific establishment now says we are all descended from a single woman :-)tribune7
August 5, 2008
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